Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? - Ep.4: Suspect No. 1

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

After securing access to the case files, investigator Sarah Cailean narrows in on the original suspect: Chuck Chance. Thirty years later, police still consider him the primary suspect, and Sarah is determined to figure out why they think this friend of Jennifer and Justin might have killed her. Not wanting to develop tunnel vision, Sarah looks into a few other surprising names on the suspect list, and deeper into the one man who’s confessed: Jeremy Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What kind of secrets are your neighbors keeping? Who are they, really? Nightmare Next Door, the official podcast based on the hit true crime show from ID, exposes real-life murders that sent shockwaves through small-town America. You'll hear direct audio from the TV series, with interviews from witnesses and investigators, and finally find out what's going on behind closed doors. Listen to Nightmare Next Door on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So we drove to Baxter and I pulled up there and of course the cops wouldn't let me in. And then they said, go down to the station, they want to talk to you. And I'm like, okay, so we both go down there and there's everybody's there. I'm like, well, what the hell's going on? What happened? And someone said, and they jumped in to my ears. Day one, they were saying. Day one, day one. From ID and Arc Media, I'm Sarah Kalin,

and this is Who Killed Jennifer Judd? When I started investigating the murder of Jennifer Judd, I knew I couldn't focus solely on Jeremy Jones. There was at least one more person I would have to look at seriously. His name is Chuck Chance. Chuck was a friend of both Jennifer and Justin Judd. He was a year ahead of Jennifer in elementary school. In his senior year of high school,

he transferred from pitcher to Quapaw High School to play on a bigger football team. He stood beside Justin as a groomsman on Jennifer and Justin's wedding day. Wedding photos show a stocky, sandy-haired, baby-faced young man with a serious expression under a furrowed brow. Like Justin, Chuck was a multi-sport varsity athlete and a notoriously aggressive competitor. Within hours of Jennifer's murder, Charles Craig Chance, Chuck to everyone who knew him, became the prime suspect. 12 years later, when Jeremy Jones confessed

to killing Jennifer, Chuck Chance was still the main suspect. Kansas Bureau of Investigation agent Larry Thomas traveled to Alabama to talk to Jones. Here is what he said to Jones. Our case is based on witnesses. And there's no doubt I could probably charge Chuck Chance based on the witness information, but I don't think I can convict him. Thomas says, there's no doubt I could charge Chuck Chance, but I probably couldn't convict him. I've known Chuck Chance was the primary suspect since I first heard about Jennifer's case,

but I have never known quite what to make of the suspicions surrounding him or why the police never charged him. I've gathered that Chuck had no real record when he was suspected of killing Jennifer, but in the years since, he's landed in prison several times, usually in cases involving theft or drugs. He has several protective orders issued against him for behavior related to violence against family members.

He has at least one misdemeanor violation of a protection order. Otherwise, there is no court record of domestic violence. It's unusual to see an act so violent as what happened to Jennifer, without seeing a pattern of escalation leading up to it and a steady continuation of similar acts afterwards. Unusual, but a steady continuation of similar acts afterwards. Unusual, but not unheard of. When I arrived in Miami, Oklahoma in March of 2024, I tried to get a general sense of his reputation.

What's going on with him when you say like you know about him or that he's... He's just been trouble. He's just a lot of trouble, you know? And I don't know. I spoke with someone before and it mentally, mentally he's not right. And I don't know if it's like from a lot of drug use or just mental illness. This is Detective Leslie Bissell. Was he into meth or was it more like leading into opioids than that? You're not sure? No. Leslie is not directly involved in this investigation, but she's been part of the law enforcement community in this region for decades, so she knows anyone and everyone.

She's generously offered to help connect me with key people in the area. She approached Chuck's sister to ask if she'd speak with me. Apparently, it didn't go well, so I've decided to leave it alone. I spoke with several friends of Jennifer and Justin while in the Tri-State area, including Jennifer's childhood friend, Chris Housh. Chuck was huge. He was kicked out of Pitcher. Let's see. I would have been a sophomore maybe, and he was a senior.

He blew the end of his finger off with some type of firecracker. And we had some science class together. But otherwise, I didn't have much contact with him. Does Jennifer like him? At the time, she never said anything one way or the other. I never thought Chuck had much to do with it. So many people did.

Why not Chris? Were Chuck and Justin really tight, or was it just something that has sort of been mythologized? Those guys all run together in a group, so there were always five to seven of them together all the time. You didn't see one alone anywhere. They were always kind of together, hanging out.

And so I don't know that he liked him any better than any of the others. I asked her to elaborate on Chuck and how well he knew Jennifer. Chuck had been at Pitcher with Jennifer. Had you ever heard anything before about Chuck having feelings for Jen, like having some sort of a crush on her? No. That was a rumor that was started after she passed.

And that was, you found that not even? No. There were several of those rumors that came out afterwards. Michelle McCorkle shared the most interesting details on Chuck. They were into drugs and stuff. His Jennifer had told me one time that she found some stuff in the toilet. I'm still trying to vet this detail about Chuck, Justin, and any involvement in

what Michelle calls the Quapa Mafia. Quapa is the name of the town Justin, Michelle, and her husband Tommy grew up in. It's also the name of a tribe that has lived in the area since long before any of this happened. When Michelle talks about the Quapa Mafia, she's referring to a group she claims her father-in-law led. Michelle tells me Tommy Davis' dad made speed, and that Justin, Tommy, their friend Skip, and a few other local guys were part of this supposed mafia, if loosely. So far, I haven't found anything to confirm

there's any sort of quapa mafia. I will be honest, I take what Michelle says with a grain of salt. Not because I think she's lying, just because memories can be clouded or even altered by emotion and the passage of time. The pieces of this don't quite add up to a concise snapshot of a moment in time,

but rather have the appearance of a blending of many moments shaped into one memory. She also shared that she thinks Chuck knows who killed Jennifer, that he saw the crime scene when he stopped, drove over to get Justin at work, and then came back with Justin to clean up the scene, both of them acting to protect some guilty third party.

This scenario is the most difficult to buy into, if for no other reason than it would require a whole handful of co-conspirators at Justin's workplace, all in it together to make Justin's alibi credible. Instead of latching onto this, I wanted to steer her back onto the main path. I asked Michelle if there was a history between Chuck and Jennifer. Chuck and her got into it many times at parties, but it was just like bantering back and forth. There was no physical push in or nothing like that. What would provoke a 20 year old-old to kill his friend?

Unrequited love or even lust? Anger at her for taking Justin's time away from him? Some old grudge going back even further into their childhoods? Silencing her as a potential witness to drug trafficking? There are possibilities to explore and either confirm or eliminate from this puzzle. Police took dozens of witness statements back in 1992. They talked to many of Jennifer and Chuck's former classmates. It'll take me weeks to read them all,

and I'm hoping these statements will start to answer the questions surrounding Chuck and Jennifer's friendship. As I dig into the case files, I can understand why Chuck Chance has been a suspect from the very beginning. I can see why they have had some difficulty excluding him. But I can also see why they have not been able to arrest him. The first clue is in his initial statements. Police first spoke with Chuck about 90 minutes after Chuck and Justin discovered Jennifer's body.

Chuck says he woke up in the morning in Pitcher when his wife Tracy left for work. Chuck and Tracy got married right after high school and had a one-year-old daughter. He says that around 7 a.m. he left his apartment and headed to a fitness center where he spent about half an hour in a whirlpool, then showered and left. From there he drove over to Justin and Jennifer's apartment. Chuck says he didn't see Justin's truck in the driveway, so he assumed Justin was at work and decided to go over there.

He doesn't explain this decision, or if it's something he typically does. The cops don't seem to ask, which I find strange. Chuck adds that he saw a saleswoman knocking on the door of the other half of the duplex. At least, he assumed she was a saleswoman. He didn't recognize her. It's another strange detail. He says he saw her as he was pulling out of the Judd's driveway. She yelled out to him, so he rolled down his window.

She came up to his car and asked if Mr. and Mrs. Judd lived there. He said, yes, he's my friend and they live here. She walked over and knocked on the door, he says, and he drove off. Asked if he can give any more details, Chuck says, quote, I figured she was walking door to door in this block. He adds she had a dark, dark maroon car. From the duplex in Baxter Springs, Chuck says he went to Pittsburgh, Kansas to submit job applications. This was 1992.

There were no online job submissions. He had to go in person. Chuck's first conversation with police lasts 26 minutes. Later that day, police speak with him again. In the second interview, police ask for more details. Chuck says he got to Pittsburgh, Kansas around 9 a.m., stopped at a convenience store to ask for directions, then drove to Superior Wheel to apply for a job.

They told him he would need to sit for an interview at the time of application, so he decided to go back a job. They told him he would need to sit for an interview at the time of application, so he decided to go back another day. Next, Chuck went to Hicks Corporation. He spent about 30 minutes filling out and submitting an application, then headed back towards Oklahoma. Chuck says he left Pittsburgh at 9.42 a.m., having noticed the time as he was leaving.

He says he went to Galena, Kansas to apply at a pet food factory, but that there was a sign stating they were not accepting applications. From there, he drove straight to Justin's workplace and stayed with Justin until Justin's shift ended at 2.30 p.m. Again, no one seems to ask why Chuck went to Justin's workplace, or if him waiting for Justin like this was typical. The next day, May 12, Chuck calls the Baxter Springs police around noon. He says he's forgotten a chunk of the morning,

and he wants to amend his statement. Where he initially says he left Pittsburgh at 9.42 a.m., he now says he left between 10 and 10.15 a.m. He drove from Pittsburgh to the pet food plant in Galena and then to Commerce, Oklahoma, to deposit an unemployment check in his bank account. After the bank, he went to the Pitcher post office. He states it was 11.30 on the dot when he got to the post office, because as he pulled up, the clerk was locking the door for a lunch break,

which was always at 11.30 a.m. Now in this corrected version, he says he went from the closed post office to Justin's workplace, passing through Baxter Springs, arriving at Justin's security booth around 11.45 a.m. The rest of the story remains the same. They stayed there until 2.30, Chuck followed Justin back to the duplex, and together they discovered Jennifer at 2.45. So what do we do with a timeline like this when we're examining a possible suspect? We want to check the actual point-to-point clocking of the distance and the time each

one might take in order to verify that the story holds up in the big picture. Detectives drove the route with the amended information in 1992 and again in 2000. I also mapped it out. We all arrive at the same conclusion. Chuck's timeline lines up with the actual drive times. The second step is to verify he was actually at each of the places when he says he was. Police went to the places he applied for work, the convenience store, the bank, and the post office. There are witnesses who confirm not just that he was there, but that he was there when he says he was. So what's the problem? If his story appears to be accurate,

how did Chuck Chance become the primary suspect in the murder of Jennifer Judd? And why has he remained so for 32 years? Because if Chuck left Pittsburgh at 9.42 a.m., as he said in his first statement, even if everything else is true, there is a window of 23 minutes that is not accounted for. Within those 23 minutes lies Jennifer's time of death,

exactly when Chuck would have been passing right by the Judd's apartment in Baxter Springs. But, and this is really important, if Chuck left Pittsburgh between 10 and 1015, as his amended statement said, that window slams shut. The witnesses at the bank and the post office are important, but not enough to rule him out, because he could have stopped at Jennifer's, killed her, then continued on to the bank and the post office. It's important to note, however, that the people who saw him at the bank and the post

office didn't see any blood on him. They said he was, quote, calm and acting normal. The timeline doesn't leave time for him to stop somewhere and change clothes, and, quote, calm and normal behavior doesn't track with a 20-year-old first-time killer. It's perplexing, and to the investigators' credit, they didn't have quite as much tunnel vision as I initially thought. In the files, I see that they explored other suspects in those early days. On the suspect list, I see Justin's dad, Bobby, and most of Justin's friends. One in particular jumps off the pages because I've heard his name before.

Tommy Lee Davis Jr., ex-husband of Michelle McCorkle, best man to Justin at the wedding only nine days before Jennifer's murder. What kind of secrets are your neighbors keeping? Who are they, really? Nightmare Next Door, the official podcast based on the hit true crime show from ID,

exposes real life murders that sent shock waves through small town America. You'll hear direct audio from the TV series with interviews from witnesses and investigators, and finally find out what's going on behind closed doors. Listen to Nightmare Next Door on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. ["Nightmare Next Door"]

Do you want me to close this? Yeah, that's all right. Thanks for doing this again. I know we're just dragging you all over the place. You know, let's check. Like I said, it's for Jennifer, so... Yeah. I'm back at Leslie Bissell's office to meet with Michelle.

So the very good news is that I now have the entire file. It is actually a very dense file. I mean, I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the surface. The second day we were there, the chief detective and I, Joel Tabor, went through all the physical evidence that KBI had sent. And there's a lot. Was it bigger than a little box?

It was an entire cart full of boxes. Michelle starts crying. She had been led to believe there was nothing more than a few pages of reports and no physical evidence to test, which is bound to have left her feeling hopeless for a long time. I planned to make this a quick conversation, but sitting here in front of this woman trying not to weep, I'm remembering to take off my investigator hat.

I remind myself that Jennifer is not the only person hurt in this story. Her friends lost a friend at an incredibly tender age. They knew Jennifer for years, their formative years, sharing the experiences of growing up that shape us as adults. And they've been haunted by her death for more than three decades. I got goosebumps all over me just thinking about it. I mean, I'm glad that they have the evidence

and they're going to do something about it. Because that's what I've been trying to get ahold of KBI, been trying to get them to redo the DNA. I want to do something and anything. So a lot of weight's lifted off me just hearing that. I'm really glad. I'm really glad. I'm really glad. It's definitely all on me now.

I feel like I'm... I feel an enormous sense of responsibility. I definitely wanted to touch base with you and let you know that stuff is kind of good news. There is one thing I want to follow up with you. Tommy Davis was your ex-husband, right? Right. So you know that they took blood and hair from him and looked at...

Yeah. He never told me that. I wondered about that. Hmm. Wow. They looked at him for a while, then as the list whittled and it got down to about five people and he was he was in those five people. I was curious about your take on that. No, did not know that. What do you think it means? I don't know. I mean, I can't, like I said, I can't tell you 90% where he was at, because I was at school, high school.

And he said he was going to the doctor that day because he had her to see him, I don't remember what it was really. So supposedly he went to work and then left later and then went to the doctors down the street from the high school and then went he came picked me up and we drove past no not that day okay where was he at that day i don't know where he was at that day after the doctor's appointment but he went to the doctor

on the day supposedly the murder yeah that's what he had told me what was the hand injury i don't know i can't i couldn't even remember i mean i can text him and ask him he would told me. What was the hand injury? I don't know. I can't, I couldn't even remember. I mean, I can text him and ask him. He would let me know. I mean, he would tell me, I'm not asking. Can I ask him or no? Leave it alone. I think right now let's leave it alone.

Okay. If you don't mind. I know it's a lot. I mean, I would, I can't generally anything that you discussed. But I, you know, it's interesting. At least you did know. No, I did not know that.

—that he was a suspect. But absent from work? Possible hand injury? It doesn't take a mathematician to see how that might add up. I didn't think he was a suspect back then. The day of, they pulled me into the sheriff's office by myself and asked me if I knew anything. And that blows me away. And I didn't. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. If I knew it's... But there's a lot of things he didn't tell me back then.

Do you have any reason to think that Tommy is somebody I should look at? The man can't even cut open a deer whenever he would hunt. I had to do it. He would puke. So... Okay. I mean, we've gotten to fist fights. I mean, knock down drag acts in the front yard, but that's because I am who I am and I don't let anybody hit me. And he's got a chipped tooth because I hit him in the face with a ball bat and came home drunk and I was pregnant with my second child

and he came up, called me a bitch, and I just went, boom, and knocked us too. But reason why he moved to California, I'm gonna tell you this, because just in case you went, well, he moved to California, and he was into drugs so bad. Was he on meth?

Yes. Yeah. Or speed. Speed, yeah. Probably speed. I would have known if it was meth, because he would have had sores all over him. So me and his sister,

we didn't want a Greyhound bus all the way to California. Gives us some time to think. Exactly. To his grandmas. Yeah. So he's still living out there. But I didn't know that they took pubic hair, blood, and hair from him. So I don't think he did it.

But then I'm not 100% sure. I'm about... 85? She raises her hands and shrugs her shoulders. I don't think she has any more to say about it. Not that she's hiding anything, far from it, but I think she's shared what she knows. I ask Michelle what she remembers

from the immediate aftermath of Jennifer's death. She sits for a minute, then starts talking about Chuck Chance. He even came to my house in Qua Fua, and this is after Jennifer was killed, and he came to the house looking for Tommy. And I said, you were not to come to my house. And then of course, he was told not to go to the funeral. According to Michelle, Justin originally asked Chuck to be part of the funeral. But when Chuck became a suspect, Justin changed his mind.

And he was a pallbearer. He was listed as a pallbearer. He waited down the street. I remember him telling us at a party that he waited down the street and just watched because he felt so bad. But Skipper and him both, Chuck, had said, why aren't you looking at Tommy Davis? Because why are we getting this treatment

and you hadn't even looked at Tommy Davis yet? This makes sense and could be one of the reasons the cops looked at Tommy in the first place. Maybe Chuck planted that seed. Michelle says Skip is still living in the area and she will put us in touch. That's all I have for her today. She tells me she visits Jennifer's grave often and plans to go again this afternoon. She says she feels Jennifer's presence there and that she wants Jennifer to know that I'm

looking into her case. You don't know how much this means to me. I mean, I miss Jen. I do. It's been 31 years. She asked me, whenever I was going to school, she helped me with Lauren. She just was there for me. And I didn't miss her.

And I kind of blame myself that she got killed. Because we could have went to the mall that morning, and she could have been gone. And then if it did happen, if someone came in, I'm a big bitch. And I did fight a lot. At least someone would have got away. You know, and she would still be alive today. And I blame myself sometimes.

I tell them them I do. I do blame myself because if I would have been there, she'd still be alive. The only person to blame in any homicide is the person who committed the act. 100%. It is never the victim's fault. It is never a family member's fault. It is never a friend. It is... you have nothing. And if you feel like she spends time with you, that's probably what she's trying to convey to you. I mean, I'm not super woo-woo, but I'm a little woo-woo. And I think if you feel like she is spending time with you, it's because she does not want you to feel badly. You have nothing to feel badly for.

My heart breaks in these moments. There's no easing the pain. The only thing I can do is try to find answers in hopes that it helps. Yes, yes. Thank you girls. I feel so much better about that. I'm gonna go home and cry.

Yeah. As she's leaving, she makes one last offer. She says she'll go see Chuck Chance. I explain how to contact him, and she promises to do it as soon as she gets home. I'll tell him I'll bring him some cigarettes or something, and maybe he'll talk to me. Anything you need help on, you holler. Hopefully, we can get something done, because it's time.

Given that Tommy Davis was absent from work and there was all this talk of a hand injury, I get right back to the files. I dread even the idea of having to tell Michelle that her ex was a viable suspect, I get right back to the files. I dread even the idea of having to tell Michelle that her ex was a viable suspect, but it seems possible. Sorting through every file on Tommy, I see the police followed up on his alibis from that day.

There's some discrepancy about the date of the office visit. The first page states they were able to verify that Tommy was at the doctor on May 11th. The second page states something about his appointment on the 12th. There's some discrepancy about the date of the office visit. The first page states they were able to verify that Tommy was at the doctor on May 11th. The second page states something about his appointment on the 12th.

It's strange, but after reviewing everything else, I think the 12th is just a typo. I think somewhere in the midst of a transcription or conversion to digital files, that second 11 got mistyped as a 12. It also says he went in for back pain, not a hand injury. Given this, I feel 90% sure I can eliminate Tommy Davis from the list. I feel like I'm beginning to get my arms around this case.

I'm familiarizing myself with a lot of the witnesses, keeping track of various splinters in the theories, and starting to piece together the progression of the original investigation. Making some sense out of the pages about Tommy feels like I'm beginning to hit a stride. I search for a sketch of the woman Chuck saw at the Judd's house. He assumed she was a saleswoman.

I'm hoping the cops asked for more of a description and created a sketch. So far, I can't find one. There are subfolders to subfolders, and I'm still sorting through them, but I at least feel like I'm starting to know what I'm looking for. In one of those subfolders to a subfolder, I come crashing to a halt. Holy shit. There are fingerprints on the murder weapon. Usable prints, three of them, on the blade of the knife left lodged in her back. According to the files, the KBI found the prints in 2000. I don't see anything about the police comparing the prints to Chuck's prints. I have to assume they were not a match for Chuck,

or he'd certainly have been arrested. But the old adage about assuming comes up a lot in cold case work. Of the three comparable prints, one of them was good enough to be entered into APHIS, which is a national database of fingerprints connected to crimes committed across the country. It was entered in December 2000. This just happens to be when Jeremy Jones fled Oklahoma while out on bond on rape charges, by the way. His prints got entered into APHIS incorrectly, and when he was later arrested in Georgia,

the cops let him go because his prince didn't match anything in the system, which is my way of saying, the system isn't foolproof. If the system had accurately identified Jones, it's possible at least four women would still be alive today, if not more. I don't want to be all tinfoil hat here, but when I see that there was a usable print on the murder weapon, I start to wonder if maybe Jones didn't flee the rape bond, as

I've always believed. I mean, he'd been charged with sexual assaults before that and had never fled. Why in 2000? Maybe he found out there was a print on the knife used to kill Jennifer Judd. It's certainly possible. I'm becoming more convinced that either this print or DNA testing will tell us who killed Jennifer Judd. Once we as a team have determined which items have the best chance of yielding results, we'll send the pieces of evidence, control samples, and DNA profiles of every suspect to a lab I've worked with many times. I'll also be sending along one additional profile,

one that has never been compared to a single item in the Judd homicide, the profile of the only person who has ever claimed responsibility for murdering Jennifer, the profile of Jeremy Jones. It will be weeks before we have those results. In the meantime, one of the most important elements of this investigation is determining the truth of Jeremy Jones' statements. I've been thinking about Chris Housh's request to watch the part of the confession

tape where Jones mentions her. I decide it'll be okay to do so. Chris comes over after work on my last night in Joplin, Missouri. I queue up the recording. Chris asks to watch more. I warn that it could be stressful to watch. Chris understands and politely insists. She grabs a blanket and lays on the couch.

Jeremy tells a story about the powwows. Who's he talking about? Jen. Who? Jen. Okay. Chris looks angry as she listens to Joan say he met Jennifer at a powwow. That was a bunch of bullshit.

She would have never sat down and visited and she would have not went to the powwow grounds by herself. She would have packed one of us along with her. I suspect that that was part of the fantasy element, right? Like maybe he saw her in this football game and he saw her at a powwow but didn't actually interact with her the way he's describing. But it is interesting. He knew that Justin and Jen fought all the time.

My impression is that any actual relationship between the two of them is entirely in his head. And I'm just still trying to piece together if any of the rest of it is true. This is where I really need Chris's help. We keep listening. Jones tells a story about their childhood riding bikes together. That story is completely true. About you guys riding bikes after dark.

About us riding bikes after dark. The railroad tracks are a block over from my granny's house. And we were messing in the dirt doing something. I was a tomboy. I mean, I didn't have a 10-speed. I had a Takari dirt bike. And we were down this plan. And when the streetlights come on, it was time to go home. That's just the way it was. I could hear my grandma hollering for me and she come around the corner and started walking towards us. And so we got on our bikes and was going home.

And she did, she told him, she said, get your ass back across to your mother's house and get home. Chris, you get yourself in the house and get in the bathtub and just chewed him good. And I mean, we were little kids just playing. I forgot all about that. It's completely true the whole story. Will you back that up just a minute? I cannot believe he remembers that story because we were little.

We play a bit more. Jones rattles off Chris's high school schedule. He talks about Chris being at the powwows and having to leave early. Chris curls further under her blanket. Sorry that I'm making more work for you on Friday night. No. I mean, I didn't plan on laying down on the couch and watching all of this, but after the first few things and when he said, no, it gets dark and she has to leave the powwow grounds. Why didn't I realize this? I mean, I feel so ignorant. I mean, I'd walk by him in the hall

and say hi and never think, you know, anything about it. and say hi and never think anything about it. We watch more. Jones tells a story about Chris's dad coming over to his house. Jones says that when Chris's dad left, Jones's mom told him to try to get with Chris. Chris signals for us to stop the video. My dad would have never went over to their house to visit with him or to get,

I can't believe his mother would say he had permission to date me. And then son. To get me pregnant, my gosh. Jones starts talking about Jennifer again. He claims that after meeting her at a powwow, they started secretly seeing each other. Fuck. Oh, fuck, that just infuriates me that he's even saying that about her. As far as Chris is concerned, there is absolutely no chance

that Jennifer and Jeremy Jones met in secret or carried on an affair. We watch hours of tape. I'd honestly forgotten how much Jones talks about Chris. It gets late and then later. Chris shows no sign of wanting to stop. She interjects with memories now and then, a few that really stand out to me.

My grandma thought he killed one of her cats. Wait, what? My grandma thought he killed one of her cats. And one of her cats came up missing one time. She'd say, I just know that little bastard killed my cat. How old would he have been at that time? Probably 12 or 13. That's very interesting.

Could have been the first thing he killed. It usually is. We go on like this for nearly six hours. Chris calls out every kernel of truth she hears in Jones' statements. There's absolutely no denying Jones is obsessed with Chris. I start to wonder, is it possible that Jennifer was Jones' proxy for Chris? If Jones killed Jennifer, is it possible his motivation was related to his obsession with Chris Housh? As I get lost in my own thoughts on motive, the final video ends.

To me, just to see his face, just to see him sitting there telling this story, and part of it's real and part of it's not, with such a straight face. That's the sociology. And part of it's real and part of it's not. With such a straight face. That's the sociology. Like a normal, like me just sitting here talking to you. He just, he looks so normal there. And I don't even know if normal's the right word, but I can still see him riding that chopper bike

around the block. Chris pauses. Her eyes wander off. Eventually, she says, I want to feel sorry for the part of the way he grew up and the way he was raised and the fact that I don't think he had a chance of turning into anything or mounting to a hill of beans.

But I'm so angry, on the other hand, about all the lies and all the bullshit that he has said in those interviews. Ultimately, I don't think he did it. We sit in silence for a few minutes. Chris looks pensive. She's playing with her keys. The main thing I want to know is if Justin and Jeremy ever ran around together.

Because as far as I know, there was never any contact. Unless he would have been with Chuck. I tell her we're still trying to set up an interview with Justin Judd. I don't know. Just your take on him, I think, will be interesting. I mean, we know he was at work. We know he didn't physically do it. I just think he ruined her life. I don't respond.

I didn't grow up with them. I wasn't there. I don't know Justin. It doesn't seem like Chris expects a response. She's lost in thought. I guess I'm honestly disappointed. I thought I would leave here tonight having a different opinion.

I thought I'd leave here tonight knowing that he did it and be able to go home and mold that in my mind, I guess, marinate on it. But it hasn't answered any of the questions that I have. So I'm just as lost as I was from the first day I talked to you. But I guess I better go home so my husband doesn't keep calling. I just kind of feel if I get up and leave you guys will be gone and nothing else will happen again. I've been waiting

now almost 32 years for this to happen. I cannot promise you a solution but I can promise you that I won't stop until everything's exhausted. Well, even getting to talk about her again to someone that wants to listen has been nice. Because she was real and she was loved, and people miss her still every day. After this night with Chris, I'm surprised at how much more complexity there is to Jeremy Jones

in the way he treated people around him. Intellectually, of course, I have always understood that psychopaths are very good at getting people to warm up to them, which makes it that much more of a betrayal when one is victimized. Chris is another victim of Jeremy's, in a way. Left wondering what she missed, literally losing sleep over his actions and how they devastated people she loves. But it's very different to experience it up close, to feel the heat from her pain radiating off of her. Like Chris, I want to know how well Jones knew Justin Judd

and Chuck Chance, if at all. The only person who can clarify this for me at this point is Justin Judd. Justin told Leslie Bissell he'd speak with me. I've since sent messages to three Facebook accounts. The first time someone responded and said, sorry, this is the wrong Justin Judd. The next message went unanswered. Finally, two weeks after my first attempted contact, I got the right Justin Judd. And this time, he responds immediately.

He says he'd been traveling for work, but he's happy to speak with me. He offers to come to Miami on Saturday afternoon. We arrange to meet at Leslie Bissell's office. This feels huge. It's been wonderful getting to know Jennifer as a vibrant young woman through some of her closest friends, but there can be no denying that what Justin can share

with us will be on another level than anything else up to this point, both as her husband and as a critical witness. As Chris Housh said, Jennifer was loved and people miss her every day. I believe Justin Judd is one of those people, and I believe he can help me get to know Jennifer in a way many friends could not. Next time on Who Killed Jennifer Judd. I was always really big on her unlocking the doors, you know, make sure the door is locked. And I had the key in my hand, and I reached for some reason I just reached down and grabbed

the knob and it turned. And at that point I had a really bad feeling. Who Killed Jennifer Judd is produced by Arc Media for ID. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts.