Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? - Ep.6: Drunk Talkers

Episode Date: March 29, 2023

Is a distressing 1993 tip made about Renée's murder merely the result of a drunk talker… or something far more sinister? Drunk talkers are dime a dozen when it comes to murder cases, but this tip looks a lot more promising to Sarah than others she’s come across.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You know what's crazy? I actually did a spirit box session in a cemetery I asked what do you miss the most in the spirit said sex? Yeah, right. I'm Dalyne Spratt on urban legends with the Ghost Brothers the podcast We get into the nitty and gritty of paranormal ghosts and urban legends and we have a good time I hear voices and I'm running up this mountain at some point lost my pants like running up Okay, that's fair. Listen to urban legends with the Ghost Brothers, wherever you get your podcasts.

This episode contains explicit language and descriptions of violence. Please be advised. But all I can remember is, you know, making a gesture towards his neck, you know, like cut and he says, and I remember that those words cut their head off. Really?

I swear it on. Yes, I remembered that. For ID and ARC media, I'm Sarah Kaelin. And this is why can't we talk about Amanda's mom? Previously on why can't we talk about Amanda's Mom, I knew it was going to be a complicated case because she was found without her head. Well, we certainly know that rage was a part of that anger rage. It was such intensity of injury to this young woman. So somebody knew her. It was not going to be stranger. And it says Happy Valentine's Day.

And then David wrote, and please don't ever forget that I think about and love you forever. Love always, David. And then one year, he never came. And then he never came again. He just stopped coming. No letter, no phone call, just stopped.

I don't know where. They found a hand very next day. Yes. She was informed from me. Are you serious? Yeah. She called me two days before that about sending somebody up. No.

She didn't give much, but I was in our car except the town. She was just, detectives interview a guy by the name of Mike Musgrove. Mike initiated this conversation with detectives. He said he had information relating to the Renee Bergeron case. Said it had to do with a guy named Ronnie Parker. Going big towns in Pemney, telling you came from the one back. Well, I met Ronnie about, I guess, I say two years ago. Worked on a Christmas tree farm,

went out and drank a few bears with him here and there. And uh, it seemed to think that it was a pretty decent guy. When he stopped drinking, he allowed, he's pretty much aggressive. And what I can say about him. And he ain't saying part of him. That's a joke.

This is Mike's story. A few days after Renee's murder, he attended a party. At the party, Mike says that his friend Ronnie got drunk and started bragging about something he had done the weekend before. The same weekend that Renee disappeared and was murdered. Warning, this tape is graphic. He wanted to tell me about the girl he picked up and so I guess I went along with him and I said, well, you know what you do or who wasn't.

He said, I picked her up and I didn't really get the name of where you picked her up. He just stated that he picked that for girl. Ronnie told me that he took a beer bottle and he stuck it in her and he fucked it with a beer bottle. And she wouldn't get up. So he took the handle of a knife and he fucked it with a knife. And she still didn't get up. So he went on to take her to the house.

And undoubtedly, from what he told me when he got halfway to her house, he did more drive up to her house. So he opened it all and put her out. Since this tape is old and a little hard to hear, let me summarize what Mike tells investigators. Mike claims that Ronnie told him he picked up an intoxicated woman at a bar the same weekend Renee was killed. She was so drunk that she passed out, but Ronnie wanted to have sex with her,

so he raped her with a Budweiser beer bottle in an effort to wake her up. This did not work, so then Ronnie raped her with a knife. She remained unconscious. Ronnie then drove partly up to her house and pushed her out of the car onto the side of the road. Ronnie told Mike that she was still alive when he left her there. Again, this is all from Mike's account to detectives. It's kind of new about this car that would have been that Friday night. You know, correct? Any industry around it, just from an ex-stated that's to the best of my knowledge. Now, I'm going to level with you.

I don't know what to make of Mike's original tip. Drunk talkers are a dime a dozen when it comes to murder cases. They always show up. Maybe Ronnie was one. It's too common a phenomena not to take it with a huge grain of salt. But too many details from this account line up with Renee's murder, and that makes it difficult to ignore. Remember that autopsy report?

Well, it said that Renee was raped with a sharp object. And according to Mike, Ronnie claims to have raped a drunk woman with a beer bottle and knife. At that time, the details of her injuries were not known to the public, so it's not like Ronnie or Mike would know that fact. Then there's the issue of location.

The bars where Ronnie and Mike hang out, Renee also hung out at those bars, according to her friends. Plus, those bars are only a few miles away from where Renee lived and where her body was found. It just all feels a little too close. As I dig deeper into this case, I'm realizing there are other leads that I can't ignore, other leads that demand my immediate attention, and Ronnie might just be one of those leads. When I start looking into a new suspect, like Ronnie, I always want to reach out to people on the periphery first.

I don't want to jump into an interview with a suspect. I want to prepare. I want to know the answers to hack the questions I'm going to ask. This helps me read them. This gives me a sort of baseline for their level of honesty. When I look through the case notes, I see one name connected to Ronnie that looks promising. I'm going to call her Angela. Now, we're using a student him here because Angela is afraid of Ronnie.

So that is why I'm not going to use any identifying details about her. But what you should know about Angela is that she knows Ronnie well, and when I reach out to her, she agrees to speak with me again on a condition of anonymity. She also connects me to other people who know Ronnie well, old friends, exes, family members. Here is what I learn about Ronnie. Back in 1993, Ronnie worked at a Christmas tree farm out in rural mobile county. Like a lot of farm workers he sometimes lived on the farm, sleeping in a little trailer with another worker and friend by the name of John.

Ronnie hung around with a group of guys who had all known each leaping in a little trailer with another worker and friend by the name of John. Ronnie hung around with a group of guys who had all known each other since way back. This included Mike, who we heard earlier, as well as two other guys, Willie and Steve. They'd all go drinking at hunky-tongue bars in the Theodore area. Bars that locals told me used to serve a mostly white clientele. These bars included the Old Mill Club, a place called Not Slanding, another one called Jerry's Cabaret. It is important to mention that these bars, the Christmas tree farm where Ronnie worked, Renee's house, and the service road where Renee's body was was found are all within a few miles radius of each other.

Rani grew up around Muscle Shoals, Alabama, before moving down to the mobile area. According to Angela, rumors swirled around Rani that he was involved in some situations that might bring cups to his door. That is why he fled Muscle Shoals for the Gulf Coast. In Mobile, Rani worked manual jobs, sometimes in landscaping, sometimes at seasonal Christmas tree farms. This was where he was working at the time of Renee's murder. In talking to people who know Ronnie, I also learned that he later got married, had a daughter. According to his record, he was arrested and convicted multiple times for domestic violence and multiple times for drunk and disorderly related offenses. This seems in keeping with what people close to him told me.

He could be totally fine sober, but horrible, brutal even when drunk. Brutal even when drunk. All together, Ronnie appears to be a viable suspect. He has a documented history of violence, and he wasn't close proximity to Renee during the time of her murder. But before I can find Ronnie, I need to talk to the man who first brought this tip to the attention of detectives back in 1993, Mike Musgrove. Hey, Miss Phyllis, hey, it's Detective Gazear from Sheriff's Office. Hey, is Michael home?

Hey, I'm on the phone. Okay. Okay. Detective Vince Gazear and I decide to visit Mike. At the door, we're greeted by his mom. Hey, Mr. Musgrove, how you doing, sir? I'm doing good. Doing good. Look, it're greeted by his mom. Hey, Mr. Busker, how you doing, sir? I'm doing good.

Doing good. Look, it looked like being better spirits from, I guess, last time we came and checked on, I said, using UAV, sir. Yeah, they were waiting on the transplant. Today, Mike Musgrove is 53 years old. He still lives in the Mobile Area in a small house at the back of his parents' property. He mentions that he's on dialysis treatment three days a week.

He's just returned from a long stay in a Birmingham hospital. Still, he seems sharp mentally, as sharp as he had been in that original interview. And he is friendly. He keeps saying how much he wants to help us out. There's a piece of an audio recording that seems to be an interview with you. And that's why we're so eager to talk to you because it's like it's not a complete recording so that's why we're like we really need as much information. It sounds like you had given some information that somebody confessed to you. Well, I say the honest regards for you. I don't remember not. I spent so long ago and I do remember

I spent so long ago and I do remember the girl having that, the girl dying down there. I do remember that and I remember somebody telling me that they thought the blow on the Christmas tree farm was something to do with it. You know who that was? There's two of them that worked out there. What's the one about Ronnie Parker? Ronnie Parker. Yeah. And he's a real bad pilot.

Right. Wow. Mike says he remembers none of it when we ask him about his interview with detectives. He says he does remember the murder itself. And he remembers someone telling him that that boy on the Christmas tree farm had something to do with it.

This is very different than what he told detectives back in 1993. Is he lying? Or does he really just not remember? Well, in the statement that we have, the little piece that we have, what it sounded like, what you were saying was that Ronnie Parker had told you he did it, and that he gave you information that as you were relaying it to the detectives, we know had not been released to the public, right? So that was why...

You're kind of a fresh remember, I guess, what they had on record. Yeah, Ronnie, you guys were at somebody's house and Ronnie started telling you that he had done it and then saying some of the stuff he had done to her body that it turns out is true, but it's not known to the public, and that's valuable to us. Yeah, right. I can't remember when I got up, but a lot of time, I can't remember. I feel that I've tried. Do you think now, remembering what you knew about Ronnie, that he was capable of something

like that? No, I don't think he would. Because he was trying to turn his life around. That's what shocked me so bad. No, I think the alcohol made him think he was kind of up. A bad ass. In his original 1993 interview, Mike suggests Ronnie may be guilty. Here, he is clear that he does not think Ronnie could have been capable of a murder like

Renee's. There could be multiple reasons leading Mike to change his mind over the past 30 years. Changing his mind about someone or something isn't odd. What is odd is not remembering sitting down and giving a statement to detectives about a friend being potentially guilty of a gruesome murder. I don't know what else to do, but to keep pushing. See if we can jog his memory,

or he will finally admit to giving this tip. Do you think if we were able to sit down and offices and play the recording that it might help jog your memory at all or do you think that it's maybe just... I can't remember not. I don't even know who told me something like Y'all said hey, Kelvin.

Yeah, that's what you said to the detectives at the time was that Ronnie Flannout told you. Now, like I said, he sort of described in pretty graphic details some of the things he was doing to her before the knife got involved. But there was talk of the Christmas tree knife, you know. Yeah, I said I didn't try to remember it, I don't mind. And I wouldn't want to tell you something that you remember what?

Sure, but I didn't know for a fact. Yeah, no, no, that's a bad idea. At the time, it seemed like it alarms you enough to reach out and give a statement. So, somebody tells you something like that. You know, you're dealing with an actual case where the lady was found as membered, you know, then somebody's telling you, you want to. You had a time that you spoke with the detective, because it was only, it was less than two weeks after she'd been found.

Mike was friendly with us and said repeatedly how much he wanted to be of help to us, how he would never do anything to protect someone who might have done something so awful. But it still sticks out to me that Mike simply doesn't remember anything about the tip he gave detectives. I conclude the interview. Mr. Musgrove time is 12.45 or at the Mr. Musgrove for residence. The interview is 28 minutes and 20 minutes. The top number should be his phone. I'll talk. A month later, I try Mike again. I still think if he listens to his police interview

from 93, we may be able to get some information out of him. Hello. Hi, is this Mike Musgrove? Yeah. Hi, Mike, this is Sarah Kaelin with the Mobile County Sheriff's Office. We met last month. Yeah.

Hi, I was wondering if you might be able to come in kind of sheriff's office we met last month. Yeah. Hi. I was wondering if you might be able to come in and sit down so we can play that recording we told you about and see if it helps jog your memory at all about the Ronnie Parker situation. Yeah. I made you kiddie down since it But if it was a clear, a bit of a couple of days. That's fine. That's fine. Is there a day this week that works for you?

We can work around it. You're not this week. Mike sounds bad. It's clear his health is declining. And he seems even less willing to cooperate them before. He avoids scheduling a time to come into the office, and unconvincingly says he'll call us. But he never calls. So we keep calling him. At the telephone, please record your message. When you've finished recording, you may hang up or press one for more options.

To leave a call back number, press five. Mr. Musgrave, this detects peak with the Sheriff's Office. It's Friday, no October 23rd, about 115. I know we've been in contact recently and had some storms that have come in and we haven't been able to link up. I still need you to listen to some of these audio recordings, so if you would give me a call back at ****. Thank you.

Have we hit a dead end? So I return to the case files yet again. The original detectives seem to think that Ronnie is worth investigating, too. His name is all over the notebooks. They list important details, raked with a beer bottle. The local bars were Ronnie and René both hung out, names of friends and equateances of Ronnie's. It looks like the original detectives visit Ronnie at the Christmas tree farm where he

worked. They also bring him in for a polygraph test. But I don't see any clues that they took their investigation further than that. As I go through these files again, I find an arrest report. It's from the Mobile Police Department, that is the city police, not the sheriff's office. And it's dated December 14, 1993, a month after Renee was murdered. The report details that they arrested a guy named John. He was drinking and being loud and obnoxious in a Walmart parking lot, where his truck was parked. The police arrest him and tow his truck. But before they tow the truck, police inventory the contents of it.

And as they go through the truck, they find something. A bladed instrument. It appears to have a substance on it. Maybe blood. Machete is what the police call it in their report. Okay, this all sounds like it's leading to some big reveal, but a machete does not match the murder weapon in Rene's case.

A machete has a really long, very curved blade. The knife that decapitated Rene is long, too, but would have had a straighter, slightly thinner blade. But here is what I do know. This John is a co-worker of Ronnie's at the Christmas tree farm and an occasional drinking buddy of his. Despite this, the original case file does not connect the investigation into Ronnie with this guy John's rest. It's interesting.

As I continue to look into the case files, I see that back then, one of John's old bosses called the Sheriff's Office asking them to look into John after Renee's murder. Apparently, days before her body was found, John had allowed and violent outburst at work. No one was hurt, but the boss fired him. The boss called the Sheriff's Office because he knew that John also worked at the Christmas tree farm in Theodore, which was close to the place where Renee's body was found. The same farm where Ronnie worked. The detectives notebook reads and I quote, John fired, violent, hard worker, real nervous,

get mad at nothing, broke windows, didn't like to be around people. Unquote. Okay, so I already know that multiple people called in tips on Ronnie. Now I see that someone called in a tip on John, Ronnie's coworker and drinking buddy. And a month in a tip on John, Ronnie's co-worker, and drinking buddy. And a month later, police arrested John, finding a machete in his car.

But I keep getting hung up on this machete. It is not the murder weapon. So I decide to look at the forensic report on the machete. I scan the page, and my eyes catch on the second paragraph. It reads, and I quote, The item had a single blade measuring approximately 17 and a half inches long, and a maximum width of approximately one and a quarter inches. Oh my god, it's not a machete. It's a Christmas tree knife.

Have you ever seen a Christmas tree knife? I had to look it up. You should. It's a smooth razor on one side with jagged, vicious little teeth on the other. The blade portion is usually 16 to 18 inches long and inch to two inches wide. It's kind of scary looking.

It is incredibly sharp. It can cut you right to the bone if you're working on a tree and accidentally catch your leg or arm on the other side of the branch. And this fully matches the description of the weapon used to decapitate and murder Renee. Clearly, I need to not only look into Ronnie, but this guy John too. John's address is relatively easy to find. Looks like he lives in a remote corner of Mississippi and a cabin set way back in the woods.

It's honestly a little difficult to navigate. There are no markings on mailboxes, barely even anything that looks like a driveway, just long stretches of country road, with occasional dirt cutouts that might lead to a house. When I finally arrive at his place, there's a woman sitting on the porch who greets me politely, but reservedly. Hi, I'm a special investigator

with Mobile County Sheriff's Office. Yeah. And I just have a couple questions I don't know if you want to chat privately or if you're all right with a couple minutes later John joins the woman on the porch. He looks a little surprised but agrees to talk.

Okay, well I'm looking at a case from back in 1993. A case the victim's name was Renee Bergeron but at the time she went by the name Maria Martinez. Did that ring a bell at all? Were you working out at McAvid's in the 90s at that time? Yeah, I sure am. So, in the case, the woman was found murdered and dumped on the side of I-10.

Yeah, I remember. Do you remember the case? Yeah, police came by. So they did come by and talk to you? Yeah, but I lived right there. OK. And they talked to others. And do you remember what they talked to you about at the time

or if they asked you about anybody in print? So just to explain, I've got the old case notes, and I'm just trying to piece it together. So I just see notes in a thing, and I'll see a name scribbled down, and I've got to kind of run it all down and see You know see what they talked to police about back then Exactly exactly so I'm just trying to piece together and I saw your name, so yeah, I

It just wasn't much I just pulled up her and said that there was a woman clown dead Down the road. I think it was over McDonald's road back over that one. Yeah And they just laid foot in my vehicle and I went stuffy. Did they... Why did they... Do you know why they wanted to talk to you specifically? I thought maybe they might have wanted to talk to you about somebody else from the farm. Yeah, well it was. Mostly it was a part of it.

Okay. Are you still in touch with him at all? I didn't even know. I haven't seen him in 20 years. I've heard much ever since that time, around that time. John and I speak for only a few minutes. It's just a preliminary conversation. But John already seems forthright and open to sharing details. I want him to come sit down for a longer interview

at the Mobile County Sheriff's Office. Thankfully, John agrees to make the drive to Alabama for the interview. We set a date. I said, I appreciate you coming down. I'm taking a big, you've met Mr. Erick before. Yeah. The next month, John drives over to Mobile and sits down for a follow-up interview with my partner, Matt and me.

We've talked to a lot of people we know that we're used to live and just put a lot of things together. We're going back and re-interviewing anybody and everybody who had contact with her. I never know. But we don't know. Yeah, I wanted to see a picture of her. I've got a picture of her. Yeah, I can do it.

And you see if I may have seen her somewhere. So, what are you? We begin by asking him about Renee. He says he didn't know her personally. But when we show him a picture, it seems to jog his memory. Yeah, we played pool with her one time. That was it. I remember playing pool with her. Okay. I had no idea. It was her that does happen. Oh really? I know anything about that. Uh, I'll be damned. Where did Ronnie stay out of the farm? He had

there was a little trailer. There was a little camper trailer right beside the barn. And that's you know, we worked together. And it might say we went to not slanting a couple times. And you are, remember, we played pool with her? Nuts Landing is one of those hunky-tunk bars on the outskirts of the county, a rural watering hole, domestic beers, country music, pool tables. How many times did she come back to the golf school? Your truck, the counties came. He never came to me.

I never saw her. Never saw her at the Christmas tree farm. No, I never saw her at the Christmas tree farm. That's all the time I ever saw So you'll never hired her? No, she didn't work out there That's not what I mean. Oh, yeah, no, no I had nothing to do with any of that There's no sexual thing. Well, her whatsoever. I barely remember playing a little bit of poo Now he may have I don't I'd like I, I don't remember seeing him with or anything.

What John mostly remembers is that detectives were looking at Ronnie pretty closely. He describes one time when detectives showed up at the farm. How Ronnie had asked him to head over to the barn with him, hoping the police would just leave them alone. They didn't. They interviewed Rani at the farm, but not John. Rani was the only person of interest. John says, in general,

he doesn't remember bringing any women back to the farm at night. He says he kept to himself as much as possible, and maybe Rani had people out there that he didn't meet. He did say he knew Rani had used his camper for sex. That is, John's camper on the property. John wasn't pleased about it. It felt like it was a violation. Did Ronnie ever share any stories with you about hiring an escort and maybe some stuff he might

have done. So you you never heard that Ronnie at the time was telling people that he did this. He never said that to you. Yeah. He never took credit for this. No, he never said I would remember it. But he was just he was one thing he told me. He said, he just out. And I said, if I don't know why he just said he

says if they don't catch you in the first 30 minutes they ain't gonna catch you. What? Really? When did he say that? When he told me that it was just later on after the metto detect it's yeah and I'm thinking about that I mean that's not really true but if he did something like that I guess it might have been for him. It was an indication that he does criminal activity.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's a clue. And another thing he told me he says, you know how to pass a lie detector test? I said no, I'm not thinking about him. He said you put a you broke off a tooth thing and you put it between your toes and your shoe and you just squeeze that thing real tight. So I guess he's thinking he just keeps like a stress level. Probably keeps the basic stress level.

Yeah, from jumping or something on a scale or whatever they do. And you know, I'm thinking man, that's weird, what was he talking about all this? Hahaha. Do you have a tattoo? says Pear don't pop? It's on his lower back. It is not. It's in her thigh.

I'm Dalyne Spratt and on Urban Legends with the Ghost Brothers the podcast, we get into some real stories of the Pear normal. And we have a pretty good time doing it. I hear voices and I'm running up this mountain. At some point, lost my pants like running up a mountain because I heard voices. Listen to urban legends with the Ghost Brothers, wherever you get your podcasts. John seems like he's being forthright with us.

He appears to understand the severity of the circumstances. His answers seem organic, thorough, genuine. And people who know John now seem to speak well of him. Like, yes, he had a temper back then, but he's not like that now. We spoke to the family of an ex-girlfriend of his, a woman who had since passed away. They had nothing but good things to say about John.

They couldn't imagine him being involved in a crime like this in any way. But even with all of this holding true, something is not quite right during this interview. Yes, he struck us as sincere, but something is a miss. At several points, he laughs nervously. This is common for people under pressure, but I can't help but wonder if maybe he's not being fully honest with us. We know he was fired from one job at a different Christmas tree farm, but John refers to it as him quitting. When we ask him about sleeping in his car in the Walmart parking lot, which

is where he got arrested for disorderly conduct, he says he did it to take a break from sleeping at work. Okay, fine enough. But when we then ask him about the knife found in the back of his car, he gets a little defensive, acting like, what does that have to do with anything? He offers up a possible explanation. Someone borrowed his car. They could have put it there. Ultimately, though, John tries to offer up information when he can. The bars they hung

out at, the type of stuff Ronnie said to him. He seems like he's trying to be cooperative. Basically, our overall impression is that John is telling us the truth, just maybe not all of it. And I am not sure why. I told John during the interview, the statutes of limitation are pretty much up on anything you could have done back then. Like if you lied to the cops, we can't get you in trouble anymore.

So unless he murdered Renee, John has no reason to believe that we'd arrest him. So this all begs the question, what exactly is John holding back? We end the interview and thank John for his time sending him on his way. I've got you in my contacts. I'll give you my business card, too. If you think of something when you're driving home or we're like, I forgot to tell them this. Call me.

I don't answer, leave me a voicemail, because I'm not in the office all night. OK. OK. Yeah. All right. I appreciate you driving here. Yeah.

Thank you, Tom. You've got a lot of tonight. I hope that does. You can't a little light, though. It does. Everyone will have the helps. The next week, John calls us in Matt's office. Hey, it's Detective P. Calvary U.

Pretty good. Pretty good. I've been faking sitting here by myself, just been thinking about stuff. And while there was one occasion, I remember, when we were both sitting in my truck. I was sitting in my truck right there by the barn. And he all of a sudden came up and fit to me.

He says, let's go lay up in my trailer, man. Come on. And, you know, I said, dude, you know, I don't do that. I'm not coming at lay up in a trailer. Hmm. Like, yeah. And'm not coming out of layup. I'm trying to. Like in the end, you was talking in a sexual manner? Yeah, that will come way up in my throat. Yeah, that's how I would have taken it.

Yeah, and I'm like, I don't do that, man. So he basically went on his trial, you know, we went to bed and I slept in the truck here that's not I Remember that earlier I didn't say nothing to go. I was kind of embarrassed sure I mean I don't get that man. Yeah, but I figured I got a take yeah, and I'm glad you did and I'm like a nothing nothing like that, but I'm also young. I'm not a woman, I agree. You know, at that time, I was more worried about money,

my money, bettering myself. And I was afraid to get too close to any women at that time. John says that Ronnie made an advance on him, offered to sleep with him. John says he turned Ronnie down. This explains why John didn't seem forthright with us. He was holding back, just what he was holding back had nothing to do with whether or not Ronnie

was involved in Renee's murder. It was about a moment that might have been embarrassing for him. And that was really the end of any thought that John had been involved. There was no physical evidence connecting him. In all the stories about Ronnie, there was no mention of John

or anyone else for that matter. I no longer think John is a viable suspect here. But I just wanna tell you this, and there's one other thing. Okay. And this is a bigger thing. When we were drinking, it's before, I guess it was before, you know, he wanted to do all it.

You know, I'm gonna lay up with him, I'm gonna cry. I don't remember, but I know we're drinking. And I was pretty lit up, but I remember, I don't know if it was in the barn or in sitting in the vehicle, when he said it, but all I could remember is him making a gesture towards his neck, you know, like cut, and he says, and I remember that those words cut their head off.

Really? I swear to God, yes, I remember that. I don't know what context it was in, whether it was talking about a man, woman or what, but I just remember him making that gesture. That's next time on Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom. Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom is produced by ARK Media for ID. You can follow our

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