Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? - Ep.7: Theories

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Sarah’s investigation has turned up two different theories of the case, and with that, two very different suspects. So, now, she’s left asking: could either of them be the culprit? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You know what's crazy? I actually did a spirit box session in a cemetery I asked what do you miss the most in the spirit said sex? Yeah, right. I'm Dalyne Spratt on urban legends with the Ghost Brothers the podcast We get into the nitty and gritty of paranormal ghosts and urban legends and we have a good time I hear voices and I'm running up this mountain at some point lost my pants like running up Okay, that's fair. Listen to urban legends with the Ghost Brothers, wherever you get your podcasts.

This podcast contains explicit language and graphic descriptions of violence. Please be advised. I'm going to say something that you're not going to like. Okay. I'm getting mixed feelings with you now. And let me explain why. He's almost over cooperating. Now, he has a lot, but I'm wondering if we're

doing the wrong guy. For ID and ARK media, I'm Sarah Kaelin. And this is why can't we talk about a man this mom? Since 2019, I've been investigating the 1993 murder of Renee and her mother. I'm Sarah Kaelin. And this is why can't we talk about a man this mom? Since 2019, I've been investigating the 1993 murder of Renee Bergeron in partnership with the Mobile County Sheriff's Office, and I've pursued multiple leads, active serial killers.

There are a variety of indicators that you have a sexual homicide here, even without the presence of evidence of that. A boyfriend. I would give a little whatever, not enough to kill or not like that. Yeah. It'd be like a long drill. A drunken braggart. But all I can remember is you know making a gesture towards his neck, you know, like cut and he says, and I remember that those words cut their head off.

Really? I swear it on, yes. And a good friend of Renee's, who the original detectives never really looked into. I was always scared for a life man, I I think it's wild, so concerned about her. I'll tell you what, man, I wish I could, I wish I could swap my life for hers and bring her back. Here's what I know.

Whoever killed Renee is filled with rage towards women in general very likely, but most certainly towards this woman in particular. And it is a rage specifically about her womanhood and her sexuality. You can see this in the object rape of her body and the cut from her pubis to her navel. It's also clear that the person or people who killed Renee likely have a history of violence and are comfortable with it to a significant degree. And they had a disgust for Renee, personally.

The injuries to her body are sadistic, even for a murderer. I'm honing in on two separate theories of this case and with those theories, two separate primary suspects, Ronnie Parker and David Young. At the time of Renee's death, Ronnie is a manual laborer at a Christmas tree farm just a few miles from where her body was found. He comes onto the Sheriff's Office radar,

but a friend of his named Mike informs the police that Ronnie bragged to him about picking up a drunk woman at a bar and trying to rape her, first with a beer bottle, then with a knife, before dumping her on the side of the road. But I have not yet found Ronnie. I've spoken with people who know him, but not Ronnie himself. He's no longer in mobile. I need to find and interview him so I can learn more, and maybe even collect his DNA to compare it against our small sample. and collect his DNA to compare it against our small sample. The other suspect I am pursuing is David Young. This is part of an entirely different theory of the case.

David was a close friend of Rene's who seems to be obsessed with both her life and her death to a shocking degree. Plus, he was among the last people to see her alive. We are able to collect his DNA, serotoniously, so now we can test that against the newly acquired sample we have from Renee's body. But David keeps trying to lead us in another direction, more accurately, many different directions. He claims Renee's murder must have been related

to organized crime. Then, he claims it must have had to do with illegal baby selling markets. Then he claims it was just black people, you know, in general. Sometimes he'll claim all of these nefarious entities are responsible for her death in a single conversation. Is he trying to hide something? Or is he just an overly concerned friend? My partner, Detective Matt Peek, and I regularly debate this case, which of these two suspects seems like he could be the killer.

I mean, as much as David hates to hear it, this just looks like white man shit to me. Oh, yeah. What's done to her? That's why I keep going back to... ...much of the home. Yeah. Here's the thing. David creeps me out.

But being creepy is not a crime. I keep going back and forth. Is he just a weird, sad old guy who knew René well and is genuinely upset and deeply affected by her death? Then I think of his evasive answers, his contradicting stories, his visits to the family, the fact that he had so many personal items of René's, or the fact that even to this day, he regularly visits a spot where her body was found. Not her grave, that would make some sense.

This is essentially returning to the scene of the crime, and that is impossible to ignore. I hate to put my money on this guy's ass, but if I had to make because if I had to make, if I had to make decisions right now, I'm kind of torn. I'm like 60, 40 days. Yeah. Because the problem is, it's somebody out of that

Parker nonsense. I just don't know who it is, right? Because for a long time, it seemed like it was Ronnie. But now it's like all of a sudden, it's like, this sort of like the cobwebs are falling away and it's like, they were all pointing at Ronnie. Did that twist things with, they're doing this to get reward money now?

Well, and the thing is, I don't think from the beginning they were because the reward money wasn't even announced until after my Muscov came in. Muscov made his statement to the police on November 23rd, and the reward money wasn't even announced until later in the month or even in to December. We have two viable theories, two serious suspects.

Our job isn't to prove one of them did it, but rather to work to eliminate them. When a suspect becomes impossible to eliminate, only then will we begin to move towards proving his involvement. Can we find any more physical evidence to link either of them, or anyone for that matter, to this murder? It's a Friday morning, and David is scheduled to come in for another interview. The case against him is heating up, and Matt and I agree we need an arrest warrant soon.

But as of now, we still don't have any physical evidence linking David to this murder. And, oh, that was the other thing I was saying, depending on how it goes today, if we walk out of this and we're like, oh, he's lying even worse than we thought, then I think we should probably bring Keith up to speed because without physical evidence, we need to know what does he want. What do we need to get him to agree to say, yeah, I think it's time to make an arrest? Because we're just not, we're really probably not going to have this glovedance for this case. You remember Keith Blackwood, assistant district attorney?

He's really who we need to talk to in order to get the ball rolling on an arrest warrant. But, well, like, what is going to be his standard for saying yes, I would move forward and prosecute this? Because I think in a case without physical evidence, we're going to be hard pressed. I mean, if we get in there today and David says, fuck you, I want an attorney, then it might be time, you know, and then we build the rest of the top. I don't think so either. But we don't know because we've never confronted him with a single bit of conflicting, right? And now we've got a bunch. We don't call it a lot, right, man? I don't know if you're intentionally misleading us or what? But we've checked your stores and your house out.

I'm not accurate, I'm not true. Where the fuck is he? This isn't like him to play. I mean, I guess you said 9 or 9 30, right? You watch if he doesn't show today. Matt and I are still waiting. No sign of David. We give him a call. BELL RINGS

BELL RINGS All right. David. Yeah. Hey, you coming in or what? Yeah, I had to go buy and get my sister. She wants to listen in. She's called her attorney.

Uh-huh. She's gonna talk to him. Just see if he can advise her about what's going on. Looks like we're wrong. David might want that attorney after all. What's more, he tells us that his sister wants to join the interview. He's a little ornry on the call. We remind David that this is all voluntary.

He can of course bring a lawyer, but his sister will not be joining. This is an active homicide investigation. Random civilians cannot sit in. Yeah. She gives tears about one. This is the third interview. Yeah. She just cares about one. This is the third interview. Yeah. Well, because you know, you're very close friends with her

and we just like to keep talking to you about her. I know, I tell her that, but I don't see no reason why she can't sit in her lips. You know? Well, what we talk about is, well, I don't like it because this is what we talk about stays confidential because it's an active investigation. That's what I told her, you know, she's my sister and she's concerned.

Yeah, well she's got nothing to be concerned about. You haven't done nothing at all. You got nothing to worry about. The DNA out of proof that. Yeah, yep. You know. The DNA out of the prove that. Yeah? Yep. You know, the DNA out of the prove that. I agree.

Nobody has in this world has ever seen me touch my finger on a nice finger. Nobody in this world. Well, we hadn't seen each other in a long time like when she came back from... That was we didn't think each other a couple of years. We all were close friends. Did you catch that?

David just claimed he hadn't seen Renee for a couple of years before her death. He says it again and again. Well, he and I went to New Orleans. Yeah. Because I hadn't seen her since then up to the time she died. Yeah. I can't tell you how long it was that she died after we went to New York. Yeah.

And I hadn't seen her since then period since she died or anything, huh? Yeah, I remember you telling me about that. Yeah, I hadn't seen her since that day. Now this directly conflicts with the information we got from Laura Morris, that places Renee and David together the night before she was killed. Okay, so... B. You're at David's house, one particular afternoon, and Renee shows up.

Yeah, it was before she's murdered. It was dark. It was the night before. The night before, guess who she was. She was by herself. We need to get David into the office to confront him on this. Now. All right, we'll see you in a few minutes, man. OK.

All right, bye. Hi. Your sister's not coming in. No. I'm not. She's just like he's getting defensive. He's getting real defensive. Well, his sister's make him think that way.

Yeah. His sisters make him aware of the fact that she's not rough. Yeah. Yeah. I honestly am not sure why he didn't see that before. I'd have figured I was this suspect the first time we rolled up and knocked on his door. Because he, and I think that here's the thing, I think he is aware. Well, we're going to call him out on some of his lives.

Yeah, and I think we need to make him aware that we have at least one witness who places him being the last person to see her alive. Laura Morris puts her at his house on Friday night. David finally arrives with his sister, but we interview him alone. His sister waits down stairs in the lobby. I know I ain't got long left. I'm seeing I'll be 66 in December 1966 and I worked days in December too. And it really hurt me if I had to go to my death without finding any other healer. And that's what it's looking like. Well I don't know, man, he made a lot of headway.

Like I told you. We had some setbacks. But we made a whole lot of headways. I get on my knees and head. Y'all, fuck it. Well, you have been a tremendous help. Indeed, he has been a help. Now, David seems to respond better to Matt. He's dismissive towards me, hostile even.

That's fine. I'm used to it. Comes with a territory being a woman in this line of work. He's not the first and he won't be the last suspect to be That's fine. I'm used to it. Comes with the territory being a woman in this line of work. He's not the first and he won't be the last suspect to be offended by the idea of answering to a woman. So it's clearly best for Matt to take the lead on this line of questioning.

So some of the timelines and things that you've told us, since we talked to you at your house, and then you came up here and spoke with us again We've looked into some of those things you told us. Yeah, where you were what you were doing some of the people you told us about Yeah, we've interviewed those people We've sent DNA off for testing. We've done it. We've done a whole lot of stuff So that's what I wanted you to come back down so I can get some more clarity because some of the things are making sense to us, you know what I mean. This is part of our larger strategy. Given that this case is decades old, we have a lot

of circumstantial evidence, but considerably less physical evidence, especially since the DNA results have not yet come in. Do you have a tattoo? This is Pair No One Pop. It's on this lower back. It is not. It's inner thigh. I'm Dailin' Sprat, and on urban legends with the Ghost Brothers, the podcast, we can enter some real stories of the Pair Normal.

And we have a pretty good time doing it. I hear voices, and I'm running up this mountain. At some point, lost my pants, like running up the mountain because I heard voices. Listen to urban legends with the Ghost Brothers, wherever you get your podcasts. We believe that our best bet at solving this case is if we can get the killer to confess.

Of course, that is not going to be easy. However, if we can emphasize how much investigative work we've done, then if David is the killer, maybe he will understand how serious this is, and if he is responsible in any way, maybe he will feel compelled to confess. I don't know if it's possibly it could have been a white psycho.

I'm sorry I can't hear you. I said it's possibly it could have been a white psycho that didn't. Yeah. No, I can't say so. We said they ride up down the interstate all day long looking for somebody to kill. They flash money and drugs for a woman and they go anywhere they want to go. Yeah, my gut's telling me this is somebody who knew it.

This isn't just a random person. Yeah. You know, Renee, somebody's you, that area out there. How you gonna find out? Tell me on Service Road. You're right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

That's like a need on a face day. Somebody, are you related to the youngs out that way? Yeah. Which ones? My one and a half. Clive Patricia. Yeah. Remember the youngs?

Drug trafficking, busted by the feds? Stoned cows. David is not part of the immediate young family, but he's part of the broader extended family. He's named after one of the patriarchs, and David's father was a young snack young. He asked when I ate my marijuana for them. Was Renate moving marijuana for them? I don't know. How are you kin, like are you cousins?

Oh, yeah. Who? Who shows the family treat, right? So, like, we know Clyde and Patricia Clyde senior and Patricia you can ask anybody out there if they know Albert shea you know he was my dad that was your dad it was Albert young okay well the part of the reason that we're looking at that and that we're asking about it is because they had part of their operation was at the dead end of that service right.

And that's what we wanted to ask you for, and hey, if she had ever mentioned selling or dealing with those people out there. Oh God, man, they cut you up. I mean, that sounds like something that they possibly would do if you were up to them off to her. There was some mean suckers, man. So David denies any regular contact

with that side of his family, but does know about their reputation for drug trafficking and retaliatory violence. Interesting. It's time to bring up the story that Laura told us about seeing Renee right before her death, to see how David reacts and whether he remembers this at all. So what we have found, and maybe your mind just slipped your something,

okay? I'm not gonna say that you miss it in the form, just maybe just think about it, right? Is that you were in Christmast your mother's house. And you were with mother was dead at that time. Mother died in 96 that night. Correct. But you were staying at the house. You were dating a girl at that time. You remember her name? Laura Mars. It's right. I just want to interject here to say that Laura says that she and David never dated or hooked up, but David says Laura was his girlfriend at that time. Just an interesting difference of opinion between the two.

Laura Morris, the weekend that Renee was killed was at your house in Christ when we were living. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing.

I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing.

I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. Well, she would have gone back to the different day and law running in the bathroom or something for the club or something. What didn't Renee want? That Friday night, probably, and then I don't know what the H.E.

would come back there for. Because she just came out of nowhere, I didn't know, I hadn't talked to her, been expecting her, she just knocked on the door. Just in case you didn't catch that at the beginning of his answer when he mumbles to himself, this is what David says. Quote, I don't know what the hell she even came by therefore. And that's the way Lord described it as well. She drove up Friday night. Well, it could have been, I thought it was the end of the day. So y'all were time-mining at the Friday night. Yeah, well, it could have been. I thought it was the end of the day.

So y'all time lining it Friday night. Laura timeline to the Friday night. She was very explicit. Well, she's smart. She's got a good king man. Remember in our very first conversation, David said he had not seen Renee in months before she was killed.

And on the phone, earlier today, he said he had not seen her for years. It was adamant about it. But here he is agreeing with Laura's account that they both saw Renee shortly before she was killed, even if he is not sure Maybe it was she selling pills to you. Yeah, that's always... I mean, I don't want to speculate to what she was doing there. Maybe she was coming to you for help? I don't know. Right, and that's not how it could've been then.

I don't know, and I've been all up with it, because I care to go on all my life. There are a lot of facts here that are not adding up. David has previously told us he was living in a motel the weekend Renee was killed. He also said he found out Renee was dead by reading the local newspaper. Now, he's copying to the fact that he was at his deceased mother's house and criton that weekend and probably saw Renee then. Laura told us that Renee looked beat up when she saw David. But David is saying Renee's visit must have been something

to do with her selling him pills. If Renee had been beat up, he says, he would have done something about it. I'm less concerned with why you stay the night with a friend at a motel. Then I am with why you would be so sure you hadn't seen her in months. It feels like it would have been for Laura, the way that she was really jarred by the fact that she saw as well, that this woman had been murdered and she had just seen her. And I'm struggling to understand how she's one of your closest friends.

Renee, if you open up a paper on Monday morning and you say, oh my God, she was brutally murdered. I know, I've looked at the papers. Why you would forget that you saw her two days earlier. When she came over to the house. I can't put it together. Be in it, Mochelle. Me and Laura were in it, the house, and the night comes in. I can't put the timeline together on that. Y'all trying to see it out and back and back. Laura was pretty clear that it happened, you know that it was less than 48 hours from when

She showed up at the house to when the guy sees her on the service And that's where I got confusing for us was we told us that you haven't seen her in a long time Well, but that wasn't accurate because you did truth I'm telling left, he goes right. I try to spin him. He tries to spin me. It's frustrating. And what's even more disturbing is how he speaks about Renee. Like at one point early on in the interview, while I am asking him a totally unrelated question, David just offers this, unprompted. She didn't really love nobody, I guess, but maybe her people,

you know, were mom and dad and stuff. She didn't love nobody. Well, maybe she said that. No, she just, she was a wild runner. You know, she doesn't mean she didn't love me. Well, she left her, she left her baby. That's how she's on track, you know. What I want to say to David, what I want to point out to him is this, Renee loved lots of people.

She loved people very deeply. Maybe she just didn't love you. And I think maybe you hated her when you realized that was never going to change. I toy with the idea, deciding if it will be productive or just shut him down entirely. I choose to err on the side of caution, because we do still need him to keep talking to us, which he does. In total, we talk to David for about an hour. We thank him for coming in. Then Matt accompanies him out of the building before returning to the office to discuss the interview.

to discuss the interview. Okay. I'll leave that. Man, he wouldn't fucking answer a question again. Again, like, he just wouldn't answer anything. He just... It's a shock that when we talked to Laura and two, now we're putting her in a head, is that what's right or not?

Yeah, and well, and he said, what are you getting at? I'll tell you, the other thing too, that I just was like, fuck you. Was when he goes, she didn't love anybody. And that right there, that's damn near motivation. If she, you know. Well, he followed it up with, because you responded, I was, what?

I have to say, yes, he did. He was like, no, I didn't say that. I said, what makes you say that? Yeah. And he goes, well, she didn't love anyone. She left that baby. Left her kid. Which, I can understand that. that I said what makes you say that yeah and he goes well she didn't love anyone she left that baby left her kid which I can understand that I've got feelings like that as well of you might you know you're a

piece of crap if you leave your child or you recognize that you are 17 years old and the child is better off with you as a visiting frequent family member rather than in your care. Looking at David Young's perspective of this girl's prostitute drug user and achieved left her kid. Sure, if he then didn't flip that by saying, I don't wanna die without knowing who did it, I go see her grave all the time.

Like, that's what I'm saying. It's this flip with David that strikes me. The complete concern for finding out who killed Renee with making a show of cooperating, even sharing funny anecdotes and warm memories, all mixed in with saying just flat out ugly, hateful things about Renee. But there's another dimension to David that

gives me pause beyond his personal relationship with Renee. But there's another dimension to David that gives me pause beyond his personal relationship with Renee, and it gives Matt pause too. How close is he with the young snake youngs? After all, we've learned that Renee was a confidential informant for the Sheriff's Office. It's hard to dismiss that that could have played a role. I wonder if we could ever make the connection that David was moving marijuana for the other young. Right, and that she was moving through him or that he knew it.

But what, Renate did something stupid. Yeah. In the lost money, smuck the money, whatever. And the family was like, they think and the family, it's like, they think you better. That's what I've been saying. That to me would be the link between those two. Because he was conflicted now.

I really like her a lot. Well, but here's what's interesting. Now I've got to kill you. I've got to kill you, but there would be a sexual component. Right. Because he was into it. I've always wanted to sleep with you, so I'm gonna put this knife in you instead.

And that's then the curiosity and maybe hesitation marks. And also why she would have gone with, you know what I mean, like somebody she trusted and she's alone with that night. We don't know what our suspects motive would be to kill and mutilate Renee beyond personal animus and sadism. So if David is responsible, what was the tipping point? Could it be something to do with his family and drug trafficking?

After sleeping on it for a few days, I want to bring David back in. Matt disagrees. What else are we going to have to do? He said he wanted to talk to us again. Remember, like, I think he wants, I mean, unless you think it's a total waste of time. We've got him back into it. I want him really good. Because a lot is almost better than true.

100% Because you can just prove that. So I don't know what else to get ahead of him. I just, yeah, I know. He had wanted to come in and I, without the pressure of the sister, and I just feel like he, I feel like he wants to say it. He thinks she deserved it. And he thinks that he just explains it right.

Everybody else will think so too. Right. I mean, I get it, but I don't think without... I'll tell you what, you're right. I think you're right. I think if we interview Musgrove, we interview Parker, and it sheds new light towards David, we can go back at him again, but I think we'll be meeting the dead horse. I just feel like if we see what he's gonna find and say. Yeah, there's the chance that we get lucky and he slips off.

I don't even think he's gonna slip off. I think he's like, I don't think he's gonna just outright confess. You don't think so? I don't think so. I didn't after the first time, but I did by the end the last time. I'd say we're right. I didn't have to the first time, but I did by the end the last time. I'll say we're right. I'll say that he did do this. And he likes the game. He's been playing the game for a long time.

You have it. Nobody's been playing with him till now. Correct. So he likes the game. Why would he want the game to end right now? I'm going to say something that you're not going to like. It's okay. I'm getting mixed feelings with him now. And let me explain why. He's almost over cooperating and telling us. Now, he has a lot, but I wonder if we're looking to throw him a guy.

So my response to say that. I just think I need to say that. My response to that is every time we talk to him, whether on the phone or in person, with the exception of the Friday before the storm, I walk away with the same feeling, and then it kind of fades as I like evaluate the other stuff.

I don't, it's not- I might just think. Evaluated statements evaluate by kind of all the other stuff pointing at it. And evaluate the fact that over cooperation Is indicative But there is something about him where you feel like I just I just don't know I totally I think that it's not No, he's a part of but he's also like all the stuff he was just talking about, whether it was,

I mean, you know, the stuff about what he would do, the stuff about the judge, what here's what the judge is going to do. This man has a deep rich fantasy life, like that's all he hyper focuses on things, and that can just be a weird person or it can be dangerous. I wasn't raised around the most outstanding people. I mean, I take that's not the right version. I saw some things when I was a kid and got exposed to. People ask very similar to him and his mentality and I can't understand his thought process of why the way he is. Oh totally, I don't think that that is what makes him. I don't know what a Southern man is thinking that. Yeah, you couldn't beat that out of him. I totally, that is.

It influences his thought process with everything. 100%. And I roll my eyes at that, but that stuff isn't why I think that he's capable of this or that the stuff he says. It's not the, she got the blacks that makes me think that. It's the need to punish her for that.

If you know what I mean, I'm gonna be a hug. Yeah, so I know, I'm also right there with you. I don't dislike you saying that, because I go through that, I cite through that, and then I think, you know, there are. Who else could it be? Who else could it be? That's what happens to me anyway, is I, you know,

whenever we talk to him, I'm like, I'm like he did it That's what happens to me anyway, is I, you know, whenever we talk to him, I'm like, I'm like, he did it. And then a couple hours later, whatever that human reaction is, I'm like, maybe he's just pulling the wall over my eyes, I don't know, I'm usually pretty good. I think so. I think you're also a decent person, so your empathy reaction is strong, you know? But, I'll just be surprised if you don't change your mind again. Yeah, just I've never seen a case like this. You know what, Occam's razor is, right?

Yeah. Simple as explanation is usually the truth. That's right. But David is not our only suspect here. It's beyond time for me to interview Ronnie, the man at the center of Mike's 1993 tip to the police. Remember, I learned that Ronnie scares a lot of people in his life, so much so that most people only speak to me under the condition of anonymity.

And his arrest records show that he's been convicted of drunken disorderly conduct and, more importantly, domestic violence. It takes me a while, but I finally find Ronnie. He's living out in the boondocks between muscle shoals and molten Alabama. This is about six hours away from mobile. Those who know Ronnie tell me that he can be seen in town driving his tractor to get his errands done. Here's my strategy.

I expect Ronnie to be quite surprised. Whether guilty or innocent, he will likely be essentially stunned into an honest reaction. To be clear, an honest reaction is not the same thing as honest answers. It does not mean someone is telling you the truth with their words, but their demeanor and how they interact with you will be organic. This point is very important. This is not about junk science or gut instincts or declaring how someone should react in certain environments or situations. It is about my nearly 25 years of experience, and a pretty solid track record,

and innate ability to read people and interpret reactions to stimuli. At the end of the day, that's really all psychological profiling is, whether you're working with a suspect or a crime scene. Reading stimuli in response. Understanding the minutia of human reaction to very specific events and circumstances. I make arrangements with the local Sheriff's Office to provide back-up support

for the initial contact, as well as an office at their station in which to conduct the interview. As I drive up to North Alabama, I can't help but notice how different the terrain is. office at their station in which to conduct the interview. As I drive up to North Alabama, I can't help but notice how different the terrain is. Just 25 miles south of the Tennessee border, it feels much more like Appalachia than any place you'd think of when imagining Alabama. There are rolling hills, forests, actual mountains, just a short drive away. Ronnie's house sits alongside a winding country road, so I park in the grassy roadside a couple hundred yards away. I want to see what I can suss out about him before making my approach. Neighbors pull up to me and ask if I need any help.

This is code 4. What the heck are you doing here, stranger? Then I see Ronnie saunter out to his mailbox. Ronnie Parker is much smaller than I'd expect. He only stands about 5.8 or 5.9. Same height as Renee. He's wearing denim overalls and a bear Bryant hat. It is Alabama after all. He is weathered, clearly a man who has spent much of his adult life

laboring outside. He strains to look down the street as inconspicuous as possible to catch a peek at my car, no doubt his neighbor alerted him to my presence. I decide it's time to make my approach. I call local dispatch. I am not approaching anyone's door alone and unarmed. Never mind the home of a homicide suspect. But as I wait for a deputy to come meet me, Ronnie takes off in a little sedan with an enormous American flag attached to the roof, flapping furiously as he speeds away. He just took off like 12 minutes ago. He's driving a little silver Corolla

with like a big flag on top. The deputy arrives and we don't have much to do. We drive around on country roads hoping to find Ronnie. No luck. So we park at an intersection near his house and wait. I was sort of surprised you got here as fast as you did because I was like, most rural counties, I know it was only a couple of defies at it at a time.

I mean, I don't see him going too far, and now there's a hurricane coming in. So we keep losing time. His little sedan creeps by on a side road. A local deputy spots him, then runs his sirens to try and pull him over. Ronnie keeps driving for a short moment, then pulls over. It's not a thrilling chase, but Ronnie definitely hesitates.

I roll up behind the deputy as Ronnie gets out of the car. I hear the deputy explain to him, this lady has some questions she needs to ask you. I'll get somebody to make a spell please. This lady right here. Hey, how you doing, Miss Parker? she needs to ask you. Ronnie's little Chihuahua runs around in circles barking furiously, protesting the entire scene. But Ronnie agrees to join us at the nearby station. All right, great. Thank you, Ms. Parker. All right. For this interview, I don't have Matt with me. It's just Ronnie and me, meaning I have to be the good cop and the bad cop.

I think the best thing to do is you obviously remember the case to some degree, and you remember talking to the investigators and stuff. So I would love it if you would start from the beginning what you remember about the case and what you remember about what they talked to you about and what, you know, just any anything you remember from the time about maybe what made the investigators think that you were that you were involved that they sought you out. That's my day. My day is best. Best my day. Ronnie describes the police pulling up to his workplace, the Christmas tree farm, and questioning him. They did this twice, actually. I said, I told you I was going to invite him. I said, if I do, do you want to think I would have been running some

words when you're pulled up this second time? Because I know it's what you'all are gonna write for. Clearly, Ronnie remembers being investigated for Renee's murder, but I am curious if he remembers or ever actually knew why he was investigated. So that's kind of what I'm getting at, too. So I've got audio, I've got a bunch of written notes and I have audio recordings of no fewer than five people, possibly six, depending

on how you read one of the notes, claiming that you said that you did it. And a lot of people will say stuff like that after a crime, especially one is gruesome as this, right? But the reason that I'm here now coming up on 27 years after her body was found was that the stories that people came forward with of you telling them that you had done it included details that were not known to the public that were true. I want to say that a lot of that stuff is a lot. You go in and out here and people go picking at you, you know. Right, but so these people, they don't all know each other.

Mr. Parker, you know, the person might be picking at you, doing this. He points his finger as if poking someone. Are they going to accuse people of raping and murder a woman and cutting her head off and slashing her breasts off? Some of them will. Really? Some of them see, and they'll get you down here. Some of them bad hope. Okay. They'll do it to make a joke out of it. It might not even be done to it, but they'll do it to spark you. You know, it's a way they do it. Right. If you get murdered, you might have not been doing it. They're going to let you take the fall for a brutal rape and murder.

Yeah, they don't care. They damn, they don't care a bit. Now, but here's the problem with this. One, yeah, you obviously should probably pick better friends because you've got a number of people coming forward. Part of the problem with this though, and again again why it's hard for me to just like walk away and not not talk to you at all right is that some of these people don't know each other. So what were the odds that two people who never met would both reach out to the

police and say Ronnie Parker told me he did it. Here's what he said. In detail, there were details involving a Budweiser bottle. Details involving that Christmas tree knife. I wanted to tell that. You never told anybody that. No. It was showed up both right and take your stand

when I went to college with us all so. Ronnie is defensive, that's for sure. But there are holes in the case against him. Like for instance, when I look into that friend group, I can't verify that Ronnie individually told multiple people he hurt Renee. What I can verify is that there was a rumor that went around, one in which each new iteration attributed the story to Ronnie, but always as second or third hand hearsay. No one but Mike Musgrove ever claimed to have heard it directly from Ronnie.

And Mike, by the way, now denies ever making that tip to the police. Even though we have a recorded interview of him doing so, it's all a little convoluted. Maybe Mike thought he could get reward money. Maybe Ronnie was right, and Mike and the rest of the group were picking on him. I'm not sure. But Ronnie believes he's cooperated fully, both back then and now. But the problem is, again, like I said, I keep coming back to two things. The two people who don't know each other telling the exact same story down to the Budwars for beer bottle

ripener with a beer bottle okay which matches the autopsy and stabbing her in the vagina with a knife which matches the autopsy and then the Christmas tree knife being a matching weapon for the decapitation. I see, that couldn't be now that long ago, see it. Oh, I know. No matter which direction I take it, what angle I try to come at him, Ronnie's responses are natural, even the defensive ones, always keeping with the stimuli in that moment. He is clearly suspicious of and angry at Mike Musgrove.

That's for sure. But Ronnie's story never waivers. It matches up exactly with what John told us that he did not see Ronnie with any woman that weekend. Even the people we spoke to who were afraid of him, but they had to say about this specific allegation seems to corroborate Ronnie's version. When we again look at it with that term, we discussed a few episodes ago,

the totality of the circumstances, a picture comes into focus. Do I think Ronnie is someone capable of violence, possibly even extreme violence in his younger days? Yes, I do. Do I think there's a strong enough chance he committed this particular act of extreme violence?

No. Not really. Not enough to continue to pursue these vanishingly plausible leads. I ask Ronnie if he will submit to a DNA test. Yes, he says, without missing a beat. The local deputy hunts down a buccal swab kit and I take the sample myself, a swipe of DNA from inside the cheek. I bag it for transport to the Mobile County CSI team, then I wrap up the interview. I'm gonna let the deputy run you back home. Mr. Parker, I really appreciate you coming in willingly. All right, Mr. Parker, I really appreciate it.

I appreciate it. Thank you. I now have interviews with both of my lead suspects, and I now have both of their DNA samples too. But already, I'm honing in on the one suspect whose story just does not add up. I'll give you any kind of DNA you want. Whoever's DNA they got is never going to come back to me, because I wasn't there. I wouldn't do with this. That's how you prove somebody's guilty. It's the DNA. You watchin' too much TV here.

Too much law and order. You can't askin' questions. I can't convict a honest man. You can't do it. You're gonna have to. Statistically, she is 80% chance that she's killed by somebody she knows. The odds of it being anybody else. I agree. Our methane can outside the box is why would you run to your room? Because she trusted him up until the end.

That's next time on Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom. Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom is produced by ARK Media for ID. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you could take a second to subscribe and leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts.