Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? - Ep.8: Less Dead

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

In any cold case, three theories circulate among the public: the victim was a snitch; there was human trafficking; or the police did it. As Sarah’s investigation heats up, she is left wondering whether all three theories might have played some role in this case… Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You know what's crazy? I actually did a spirit box session in a cemetery I asked what do you miss the most in the spirit said sex? Yeah, right. I'm Dalyne Spratt on urban legends with the Ghost Brothers the podcast We get into the nitty and gritty of paranormal ghosts and urban legends and we have a good time I hear voices and I'm running up this mountain at some point lost my pants like running up Okay, that's fair. Listen to urban legends with the Ghost Brothers, wherever you get your podcasts.

This podcast contains explicit language and graphic descriptions of violence. Please be advised. I can understand how somebody can kill something they love. Happily. All the time? People do things in fits of rage that they don't want to do and had no intentions of doing, but it just happened.

And then their body needed that release. If you were with it, you know, I'd be reaching some cases. We've seen it. I've seen it personally. It happens a lot. I've seen it personally. Captain's a lot. I had too many opportunities. I mean, I might get there. But if I had been involved in that,

she'd never would have been found. For ID and Arc Media, I'm Sarah Kaelin. And this is Why Can't we talk about Amanda's mom? In a recent conversation, I asked Renee's daughter Amanda what closure might look like for her when it comes to her mom's murder. Answers, you know, and I feel like I don't want a big trial, and I know that's selfish because you know, you can't control what happens, but I feel that it's owed to me that you've gotten away

with this for over 20-something years. Tell me why. Tell me why. I admit that you did it. I admit that you've been able to live free for the past 20-some-odd years. After doing this and tearing our life apart, I deserve to know why. I deserve, I deserve for you to admit it. And that's why I say I don't want to try. I don't want it to be a

question. I want to my to come out and say I did this. And this is why. And until then I don't know if know about ever get closure. Real answers. I have been investigating this case for three years in search of just that. I've spoken to Renee's friends and family members, at least the ones still living. I've interviewed convenience store clerks, bartenders, and ex, former detectives, former tipsters, I've poured over her diaries, personal letters, address book. I've driven up and down the service road where her body was found so many times that I could probably describe it down to each piece of gravel.

I've made maps and murder boards. I've hit so many dead ends. And more than anything, I've interviewed one person over and over again. David Young. I tell myself I am doing this because I can't eliminate him as a suspect, not yet. And that's true.

But I think I'm also doing this because if David did do this, if David did play any role in Renee's murder, he might give me the one thing I want, the one thing that could provide a man to closure, a confession. But if there's no confession, at least not yet, maybe something else will help us get there. DNA evidence. Renee's life ended terribly, and her killer walked free.

He may still be walking free to this day. But Renee may have taken something from him too. Something that he had left behind. Something that in 1993 wouldn't have been on his mind the way it would be on a killer's mind today. Information about himself, his DNA. I didn't realize that DNA could be a possibility in this case until one day when I found a little envelope in Renee's case file.

In it, there were fingernail clippings. It was in the evidence storage area, so it was climate controlled. But it was not preserved as well as it should have been. Still, it was not preserved as well as it should have been. Still, it was something. I sent that sample off to Susanna Ryan, a DNA analyst with decades of experience to see what we could find out. So we're starting with a really low amount of male DNA

and it was partially degraded. So the results that we were able to get were only what we call partial profiles. And the right hand nails actually were seeing a mixture of males. So there were actually at least three males present in that partial profile. But I was able to pick out what we call a major contributor. So there's one person that did contribute a little bit more DNA than the other two individuals. So we have a major profile from that sample, and then the left hand nails, we do have signs of

a potential second contributor very low level, but I was also able to pick out a major profile for that particular sample as well. But Susanna says that only one sample from underneath Renee's fingernails is eligible for comparison to reference samples. That means only one is complete enough to even begin to build a profile of someone that we can then test against Suspect's DNA. So now that we have this one partial profile, we have to make a decision. Earlier, Matt and I serotoniously collected David's DNA off of a Coke can he was drinking during our interview with him. We also have Ronnie Parker's

DNA, which he voluntarily gave to us in a cheek swab. Okay, simple enough, right? Well, money is limited, and it might be tough to convince the Sheriff's Office to bankroll to separate expensive DNA analyses. So I have to make a decision. Which of the samples do I send first? Do I send Ronnie's sample? Or do I send David's sample? As far as I see it, the more I look at David, the more reasons I am given to continue my investigation into him. at David the more reasons I am given to continue my investigation into him. More I look into Ronnie, the less reasons I am given to do the same.

I decide to send David sample to Susanna's lab. Now I have to wait weeks, but one day the results come over email and they read. The major YSTR profile is not consistent with the YSTR profile of David Young. David Young is excluded as a contributor to this profile. In addition, all paternaly related male relatives of David Young are excluded as contributors to this profile. Oh God, if I've been pursuing the wrong suspect the whole time, let me read that again. David Young is excluded as a contributor to this profile. What does this mean? So what I did was I swab the mouth area of the coat can and I'm trying to pick up any saliva and then get a DNA profile from that which I was able to identify a complete male DNA profile

from the coven can that was from Mr. Young. Then I have this profile. Now I want to compare it to any results that I've previously obtained. In this case, it's from the right nails and from the left nails. And we do have a major profile from both the right nail and from the left nails.

And that's what the comparisons are, too, because the minor component is so minor that it's basically considered inconclusive. I can't make comparisons to that minor. It's just too little information. Now when I compare David Young to the major component of the right nails, he's excluded as a contributor. It's just not matching up, right? So we just do a one-to-one comparison. I can see that his DNA types at these low side or locations where I can compare are just not the same, right? So I exclude him. And then the same with the major portion of the swab from the left

nails, where he is excluded from the major component. But again, I can't speak to the minor component of these profiles. Can such a low amount still indicate that that contact happened parimord on like, you know, in the fight, essentially, if there was defensive action taken? Or is it more likely that it's such a low number

because it was just overwhelmed by the amount of her own blood or degraded over time? Right, so if this was a fresh sample from under the fingernails and had just recently occurred, it's a really low level. So if I see that and this is a new case, not a cold case, then I'm more inclined to think, this is probably just casual contact, does she have kids? It's not an overwhelming amount. Does it absolutely mean that someone couldn't have scratched or gotten ahold of their attacker?

No, but I think the other thing that makes me kind of lean more towards casual contact is that we have three males, right? Another right-males. So that kind of indicates that this person is maybe in contact with a significant number of people, including a number of males that just has a tendency to pick up DNA. Again, it makes it more difficult because it's a cold case, because a number of years have passed and the samples are degraded. So we don't really know the starting amount. We know we have now this many years later. So it makes it more difficult. This is as far as the science can take us for now. Susanna says the lab had carefully preserved a little bit of that male DNA. Maybe someday, the testing will allow us to get profiles

of the other men who had clearly come into contact with Renee in the hours, maybe even just minutes before her death. But for now, DNA is a dead end. Looks like we will have to continue doing this the old fashioned way. Gum shoe, boots on the ground, hitting pavement, knocking on doors. As I see it now, here's the case against David Young.

David came on to the radar of investigators early on in their 1993 investigation. Two tips were called in about him. One from a doctor, the other from a DMV employee, both tips said that David seemed distressed about the murder and talked about it in detail. However, the original detectives chose not to investigate those tips. After her murder, Renee's family said that David visited them regularly. David bought Renee's car off of them. They also say he gave them items of Renés, like a necklace she wore often. And he bought gifts for her daughter Amanda, including a bicycle, and wrote her cards. Then he disappeared.

I remember MacRama, you should buy him a Christmas present, and it was a partner of Winston cigarettes. And then one year, he never came. And then he never came. And then he never came again. He just stopped coming. No letter, no phone call. He just stopped.

I don't know where. So my grandma didn't know if something happened to him or just got busy. Exactly. And I remember that box of wrapped cigarettes long after Christmas was over. My grandma just kept it out. You know, in case ever he showed up, then she had it for him. And eventually she just threw it away. Once I began interviewing David for this case, I noticed other things.

David continually lies and changes his story when it comes to his relationship with Renee. The first time we approached him, he claimed not to know her very well. But over time, he's indicated that they had a much closer relationship. I was always scared for a lot, man. I think I was one of the most concerned about her. I never did ask her if it was looking for her. I don't know what to say. I was thinking.

David also shares details of Renee's murder with us that are not publicly available. He speaks about the multiple wounds across her body, the fact that she must have been tied up to have the blood drained out of her. To me, he seems obsessed with her murder. Even to this day, he drives by the place where her body was found multiple times a week, despite the fact that it is nowhere near where he lives. He's also told me and Matt that he burned everything related to Renee, which is odd.

Why would he do that? And David is related to a big drug trafficking family in the area, a family that owns property on the very road where Renee's body was found. All together, it feels like a lot of successive coincidences. But there are also flip sides to all of these points. David could have seemed obsessed with Renee's case because he was deeply grief-stricken at losing his friend. His visits to the Bergeron family could be read as his attempt to support the daughter, his friend so dearly loved. And there are many reasons he could have known details of Renee's

murder. There has been some media coverage of the case over the years. Also, his brother-in-law was a cop, a cop with a reputation for bending the rules. Maybe he shared Renee's autopsy report with David, even though that's not allowed. Yes, David is related to a very large drug trafficking family, but he says he has no close relationship with them. And importantly, David's DNA does not match one of the DNA profiles found underneath

Rene's fingernails, the only one substantial enough to be compared against. Plus, David has been cooperative. He's sat down for multiple interviews with us. That's no small feat. Even though Matt and I think it's unlikely that he'll continue to cooperate with us, we decide to reach out to David again and see if he will do another interview. I want him to explain the discrepancies. To answer directly how he'd known the details of Renee's injuries, who he thought Renee was afraid of,

and what his role was in the myriad illegal operations of his own family. And if he did do this heinous crime, if he killed Renee, I want him to confess to it. David Dodge's our calls, doesn't return messages. This continues for a week or two. David dodges our calls, doesn't return messages. This continues for a week or two. So we decide to drive back to his house, knock on his door.

It's early morning on a weekday. He opens the door. He looks the same, no worse for the wear of the 10 months since we'd last met with him. We ask if he'd be willing to come down and talk with us again. He seems reluctant. Man, we're just going back through all these case files and all the times with talk to you, you've got a few more questions. I'm looking for you to put some shoes on and come down to the office. You got nothing going on? He got nothing going on. He puts on his shoes and makes a phone call.

We can only hear his side of the call. He says, hey those detectives are here. They want me to go back downtown with them about that girl. Yeah. Yeah. I'll call you. He hangs up and follows us outside. He's nervous about a check engine light on his car, so we offer to drive him to the station.

It's time to see if we can get any answers to all of the questions we have about David and the inconsistencies in his story. You know, she needs some money left. Yeah, you said. And I really, gosh, I want that information. I wish we could get so much, you know. I keep going to one, but she didn't feel me. Tell you who it was.

You need me some good nights. Right. I could have been the key emotional. Yeah, I think, and that's why we're hoping maybe we can jog your memory, bring up some new people from back in the day that she moved with, maybe see if it helps. Shake stuff loose, knock off the cobwebs a little. That's the hope. Because if we can do that, that might just be the missing piece to the whole puzzle. This might be the last time that David speaks to us. So I want to be sure to cover all of our bases and ask every question on our mind.

See if maybe we can get him to definitively rule himself out as a suspect or confess to the crime. So from the times that we've spoke with you, we've got a lot of conflicting information. I don't want to clear clarity on that. I don't think you were intentionally being misleading. But we've got some facts and evidence that show some of the things that you were saying just weren't true. And I just want some clarification on that.

It was just a slip of memory or where you been. I didn't want to answer everything you asked me. Okay. That's perfect. That's fine. That's what I'm going to write. Absolutely, that's fine. That's fine. That's important. My rise. Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. That's why, you know, we want to talk about this thing. If you want any kind of DNA, we'll go anywhere and do it anyway you want to live a air solve. I don't mind

because I figured they should at least got some kind of DNA off of her with all the action that went on with her. You know, the four tops of show. So you're okay with giving a DNA sample? Oh, yeah. I'll give you a DNA anyway you you want. And we might do that. I can't remember how long it was from the time I met her, it took that ride down there, when she, you know, mentioned that somebody might be looking for her. And I was still on the chin and had a trail out, seeing her out there.

She could stay at, she felt that threat, you know, I could call her and get him to let her stay out there. I can't remember how much time was from then. I know that was the last time I seen it. Was when? When that happened. The day I went to New Orleans with him, came with my house. I was too much boys on that one to the day that she had helped. Most of them they had blown.

Remember Shannon is Shannon Poole, David's brother-in-law. David says Shannon had a trailer that Renee might have been able to stay at if she was in danger. All right, so that brings up another question then. We're statement on my side. We know for the fact that the Friday for her body, her body is found on Sunday, that Friday, you know, just at your house that night in frighten. When she pulled up and you and Laura Morris were there at the house. That was the day that wasn't at night. That was the

empty. So that's the last time he saw it. I can't put it together. I'm telling you that when he went to meet all of us, she told me someone might be there for together. I'm telling you that when he went to meet all of us, she told me someone might be there before or something like that. She was scared, right? Yeah, she was scared. She said something. She said something.

That was when she came back for a rickshaw. But what we're getting at is you said that was the last time you saw her. When, in fact, the last time you saw her was the Friday before her body was turned. Y'all trying to plant the shit in there. I don't know how I would plant it. I wouldn't know what kind of witness if you got it.

They said they saw her in the forest. We've seen her. The Laura. The Laura tells us that she was there. I suppose she did. I mean, I'm not putting words in your mouth. But actually, you said it too, that when we, the first time we asked you about that, after we had talked to Laura,

you said, you know, we just said, Laura said that, you know, she showed up in your house on the front end. Hang on, hang on one second, David. And she said, you told us the exact same story that Laura had told us without you even knowing, so you verified what she said. So now you're saying it's bullshit, but you verified it last time we talked.

You ain't gonna never place me nowhere near the time when she was missing a kill. There's no way. Laura Mars was not in the picture. To know anything about it. Okay, but Laura puts that as Friday before she's killed. That happened way before. So Laura's statement's not accurate.

Not in her saying put place in me that close to her being killed. Well I mean it's not that close. I mean she's saying that you're saying that Friday what I'm trying to get as a clarification of the statement that you made. Yeah, saying the last time you saw I was pretty picked up from the airport. Right. Well, we have a aura saying that actually that Friday before she was found, and y'all talking to Laura a lot, and maybe I need to talk to her. What would you say to her? I want to tell me some things that she's telling y'all. If you don't trust me, to say that. Well, I trust you, but maybe I need to solve the hurt,

but I don't have no shit with her old man because they ain't none of his business. They ain't none of my business about me and her. Yeah? I agree. That's when you hurt. I'm just letting the wrong information murder. If it ain't got no involvement with her,

or the nice murder, I'm gonna say I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,

I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,

I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was I know that. Well, I don't know how you'd be in things with you. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

You've made some odd in my opinion. And this is just me being a man to man with you, David. You've made some very odd statements. And we're starting to see a pedative of myths, truths, and a lot of statements. And that has to be accounted for, right? This is a murder investigation. Yeah, right. We wouldn't be doing a disservice to her if we didn't ask these questions.

Right? Renee deserves that. Her family should have a truth. If we don't have a truth, then we can't figure out what happened. Craig, God, or didn't. I think I look in wrong places with a murder. Well, I want to move on really do, but you have to help me understand some of the statements you've made. Well, it might be I should have made them when I was a lawyer, but. Well, maybe I should have made him an apple lawyer.

But the fact that you had, I don't want to make a bunch of other statements without a lawyer. He made that clear to me not to make no more statements than this. He was here. Maybe I made him a statement I didn't have a lawyer. I thought I was doing good by being honest about it. You've been helping us. But that stuff is law, that's a good issue. Last time we interviewed David, he agreed to Laura's account that Renee was seen at his house before the murder.

But now he's getting defensive, angry even. He believes he is the lead suspect. And he is not wrong. Do you have a tattoo that says Pear normal pop? It's on his lower back. It is not. It's inner thigh. I'm Dalyne Spratt and on Urban Legends with the Ghost Brothers, the podcast, we get into some real stories of the pair normal.

And we have a pretty good time doing it. I hear voices and I'm running up this mountain. At some point, lost my pants like running up a mountain because I heard voices. Listen to Urban Legends with the Ghost Brothers, wherever you get your podcasts. Right now, my partner Matt Matt and I, are interviewing David Young. We are anxious that it might be the very last time we do this, so we don't want to leave any question unasked, any stone unturned. I don't know how they can have that. I've not understood the investigational distance and started with cookies, cookies, yeah.

Why couldn't I mean why couldn't they get something there? There's a multitude of reasons. I think it's a good ity of lack of effort, bad policing, technology, the crowd of people she ran with and then y'all were around at the time. There was just a whole kit and commutal of things that kind of did a trifecta if you would to where there wasn't a whole ton of things. You don't know dealers, you're going to get killed. Sometimes, that's the case.

You don't know my personal opinion on this thing. Based off of what I know from reading this case for the last 18 months, almost two years, I think it's somebody she was close with. I think it was somebody who loved her. Honestly. I don't think it was a random notebook. I can understand how somebody could kill something they love. Have people saw the time people do things in fits of range that they don't want to do and had no intentions of doing, but it just happened. And then their body needed that release. You know, okay, so in some cases, yeah. We've seen it, I might have never had.

But if I had been involved in that, she never would have been found. What would you know about it? I know out of murder somebody and make a disappear. How? You get rid of them. Why don't some of my labor lay in that side and run for them? They just send in a message. You ran away, this is where you go.

Okay. How would you have done that? Nothing just got rid of them. How do you get rid of a body? Because there ain't too many people to know how to do that. I ain't never did that in the like, but I think it for, you know, from what I've learned in life, you know, you wouldn't ever let nobody find nobody.

It does. Sure. That's the thing that's going to take us to vote. I mean, it comes back to me that it was black and black and old, because they stupided it. People in general, you know, you know, it's just this stuff, good sense. And the way that

limits things when you speak, it's so strange to us. It's like, when you think about what they did to absolutely. That's what it is to stop for. He said, he's like, ride in down the interstate. All the time, looking for crazy ass girls. Sometimes a psycho lives right in the community.

I just wanna have many people, these people, but that's the only killer they ever did. Why do you think that? I don't know, it's just, they don't make no sense for somebody to do that. And I've done it before or something. I find it is back and forth interesting for a few reasons. First, David is critical of the investigation.

He says there are clear persons of interest. Is he trying to direct our attention away from him? Second, David is again showing knowledge of the case. He references Cookie Estus multiple times, the former lead detective. Did he talk to Cookie first-hand? And third, he gives us a theory of how he would commit this murder if he did it. Huh.

As we continue our interview with David, I know I need to ask him about his visits to the Bergeron family. Why did he visit them so often? And then why did he stop all of a sudden? I went down there a lot after that. Right, but she said that you guys were, you were coming down and visiting with her

and her grandma and stuff until she was about 14. So for a few years after that. Yeah, because I was working hard, I just made for good money man. And I was, you know, taking a couple of new buys that caused me a lot of money and stuff. I would always done that. What made you stop?

I don't know. Just wait going down. I know y'all, you were very close with the family. Oh, yeah. And very concerned about the case. And then you just kind of stopped. You helped me understand why. I thought a lot of my mother and dad, you know.

That's just odd to me. How long can anything keep going on with me? You helped me understand why you quit going up that day. Oh, to see him there? Yeah, so you went over there for years, years and years and we're heavily involved in their life. Oh, I know. And what?

And then one day to the next. You just quit going down there, quit calling? They couldn't get in touch with you. They thought you'd, they literally thought you died when we reached out to them. I know you told me before Let's back up. Why did you quit going to New York? Oh, I can't I can't explain I did all I could do to try to

Because I knew nobody loved her except her family Like what no You know, they wouldn't know what you didn't see no f***ing foul in there. He loves you. Yeah. You know, he's your somebody? Yeah. Besides our family.

I would heal it over. I'd heal it from my own life. Yeah. So I would have that several times. That you loved her? Yeah. I was worried about her growing life. Over the course of our many conversations with David,

he said multiple things about his relationship to Renee. He didn't know her. He knew her casually. Now he says he loved her and would kill for her. Oh, man, what you doing? I say, what are you coming from? And what are you shooting at? But then he getting back to the heart of what happened

until she was hanging around with it, that those couple of girdles, I know she was messing with it. If you just don't want to answer questions to say it on answer questions, I don't want to completely just bloom around. I didn't have no obligation to keep going nowhere or doing nothing. I mean, it was causing me money to do what I did. You know, every time I went down to the bathroom, they'd talk to me about it and answer the phone and talk to me. Well, I know.

So why just cut communication with family? Well, I'm only starting going down the edge, she got killed because I feel sorry for the family. Does that make sense to you? Well, yeah, in a way it does. But the reason you were going down the edge. Why would I keep going and resting my life down there? I was concerned about it, and I just found out that her daddy was dead when I went to Mars and him and seeing him seeing this thing. It kind of pissed me off because they had already, they had a picture of her up on the face

of the door and the flowers was gone. Nobody's, I thought about calling it and having flowers flowers, but like, I'm not interested in it. I feel the conversation getting more heated, I worry that our time with David might be running out. We're pressing him, agitating him. We know he can lose control. We want to push him towards a breaking point, one where he might just finally release all that he knows about this case, all that he may be hiding. And what I think is someone who's close and love turn and will second-tired do. No, I think that was going on.

Freonians don't do that. Nyan, crazy lovers do that. Sometimes they can be the same person. How old are you now? 66, 66 years old. I just don't, I'm proud about what you're all trying to put together to. I don't like it. What don't you like?

About y'all, the way y'all are trying to put something together that ran me crazy because she was going to be a wh****** smoking crack. I had to end her life because I couldn't stand that. It's crazy, man. That is crazy. They need to be found, I admit that. I like to find them myself. I like to do my justice. I don't know who court who justice. Yeah.

David, I think I'm talking about you. Oh my God. Honestly, based on the conversations that we've had. You are. Sir, you won't meet me. That's what I'm being. I would at all. You're warned me about you.

Okay. Look yourself in about child. Okay. Put yourself in my shoes. Okay. Some of the statements that you've said, a lot of the statements, as you said, appeared to be not truthful. Right? And then when I ask you, I'm going to give you statements.

I don't need no lawyer. I want thank you for that. You know? But my point is, and the reason I'm thinking this way is because a lot of the statements that you give are not accurate or not truthful. And then when I ask you questions, very simple questions about how you think these things are going to be.

Hang on, let me finish. Let me finish. When I ask simple questions like, you were so close with a family that you literally drove two hours to give their daughter gifts and belongings for years and then you quit going you won't be able to answer that. What? Six months is that years? Almost about almost four years. So it's the simple things like that that concern thinking all you want to you never I'll give you any kind of DNA you want

Whoever's DNA they guy is never gonna come back to me because I wasn't there I want you witness it. That's how you prove somebody's guilty. It's the DNA. You're watching too much TV. Yeah. Too much lawn over. You can't ask a question. I couldn't pick on this man. You can't do it. What if it's possible that the reason there's inconsistencies, but that you are telling us the truth, that you're innocent, that you didn't do this? What if it's possible, David, give me a second. That part of the reason there's a little bit of stuff that doesn't add up with the statements

is because you know just a little bit more, that maybe you didn't do it, but you know just a little bit more. Maybe you didn't do it, but you know a little bit more that you didn't want to give us at the beginning, and now you're kind of stuck in a corner that ends up making you look worse than you are. Does that make sense? I don't know more about it. You don't know any more about it than anything you've ever told us. Who she was afraid of.

I don't know. Who she was afraid of. Who she was. That didn't want to happen. She did not tell me that day who was looking for her. Did you not think to ask? You were that close to her and you didn't think to ask who wants to kill. You're telling me you would kill for her. You would never let anybody hurt her,

but you didn't even ask who she was afraid of. I can't tell you why it was not weird. So my husband was looking for her killed for something she done. Somebody was looking for her to kill her for something she had done. That's what David says. David makes it impossible for us to eliminate him as a suspect, but he also does not confess to the crime. That was the last time Matt or I spoke with David.

We included most of that interview here because I think it speaks to the difficulty of David as a suspect. He contradicts himself, he lashes out, he lies. But none of that means he killed Renee, and he's adamant that he did not do it, even if he will offer up theories as to how he would have killed her if he had. And without any other evidence, I can't say definitively that David did this. I can't hand the case over to the District Attorney's Office and recommend that they charge him.

At least not yet. Matt and I debate whether we should keep pursuing David as a suspect. Statistically, she is 80% chance that she's killed by somebody she knows. Okay, so that's already right there. And now we know she's moving fairly significant quantities of weed. I mean, not like tractor trailers, but she's moving more than just a normal person

who's got a cell's a couple of time bags. Right. She's killed and dumped essentially on property owned by the largest traffickers in the area. The banks. The banks is who at that time were working with the youngs. The odds of it being anybody else. I agree. Me thinking the house out of the box is why would you run to your murder? Because she trusted him up until the end. Here's one theory of the case as I see it. Maybe Renee went to David for help the night she showed up at his house.

Both David and Laura confirmed that she stopped by his house, though David later contested this. We also know that Renee called a detective, offering to be a confidential informant. Maybe she was in trouble. Laura says Renee looked beat up when she showed up that night. For me, the big question is, what did Renee and David talk about when she came over? Laura didn't know. David says someone was looking for Renee to kill her. What did Renee and David talk about when she came over? Laura didn't know. David says someone was looking for Renee to kill her.

So what did Renee tell David? Did she tell him that she was going to be a CI? Did she ask for help? What happened next? Now by this point, members, he has said to us, I told you she didn't need to be snitching on nobody. And he says that, he says that angrily. So he may have felt justified in telling them when she showed up at his house at 9, 10

o'clock on Friday night. She showed up and said, I tried to call the drug cop and he wouldn't talk to me. Yep, come see me Monday. Now none of this changes the fact that the sexual mutilation is not something even cartels typically do. The beheading yes, but the sexual mutilation no. And this is why I think he is still responsible for the posthumous mutilation. I don't like the big words there.

After she was dead, Matthew, he cut her up and he did that because he was tasked with disposing of the body. Or never thought of this, he went back and did it later. She's killed somewhere, not the dump location, but she wasn't there long. No. So it would all relatively be close. But the last place we know she was alive at was David's house.

Friday. Friday night. And think about how many times he wasn't David's girlfriend Laura Morris. Laura Morris was here. So, and how many times he's changed his story on that, right? So first, he hadn't seen her in months, he hadn't seen her in a week, he hadn't seen her in two days. If we lived in a world without DNA. Very good person of interest in suspect in this case, no doubt about it. His stories don't add up, his stories change the lies that he's told. And the lies that he tells you are very, very small, but they're only significant

in terms of the case, right? So why lie about where you were living? Oh, well, in terms of lie about where you were living, because she's seen at your house. Yeah, it's the DNA. But the DNA is a partial from fingernails that could be from any part during the day, any part during the fight. We're all of the mind that this probably was not him. I mean, there's no reason for him to attack her on the head and beat her when she obviously

at that point still trusts him. He could have surprised her and there would be no other wounds on her body if he's just going to kill her that night. So there's somebody else involved in this. And again, when you look at the odds, it happens on a road where almost all the properties are owned by the banks and the youngs. And she's moving drugs and he is connected to those people too. Like I said earlier, it's a very tough case because your witnesses, one, don't remember a lot

of what happened in 93 or don't remember a lot or some of the witnesses are dead. So it's a very tough case to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. My opinion that if you go to a jury or a grand jury with this, we can indict a ham sandwich. Yes. All right, it's all on what you tell them happen. Here's the thing. We don't want to indict someone until we ourselves are fully convinced that he did it.

Matt certainly doesn't, but me neither. Still, something does not sit right with me when it comes to David Young. You know, when you tell people the story about this thing, and you tell people about him taking a man about this thing, and you tell people about him taking a man to there at 10, you tell people about him still going down there. Everybody's like, oh, we did it. Which I agree is not that is not a reason to put somebody in prison, but I agree with

you and indictment would be relatively easy. Absolutely. None of us are in the business of putting somebody in jail who didn't do it. Yeah, it's not going to happen. Right. That's what I mean. I don't want that. I don't want that either. It doesn't meet in my opinion right now.

It doesn't meet that burden of proof to convict me. So what do you want to feel better about that? I just think there should be more. But what is more? What do you want? Sometimes you don't have more. Sometimes you're only limited, obviously, to what the case gives you.

And you can't just make things up. I'm not saying that that's been done, but you can't hope and wish that this is be resolved. It's just the life of... I know. But I guess I'm asking, what would seal it more for you? In the absence of DNA, because not every case is going to have DNA, that's just a fact. In the absence... Obviously a confession would be great, or in mission of participation in the crime. Or knowledge of the crime. Matt, Amanda, me, we all want the same thing, a confession. It feels like the only kind of certainty available in a cold case like this, and it's exactly what eludes us.

I would like to be able to say to you that this is all resolved, that Matt and I aren't still debating in a circle, that there aren't nights I've literally cried myself to sleep, afraid of either not solving this case, or of possibly charging a weird and dishonest, but otherwise innocent man. I cannot say any of that to you. But I can say that in the weeks and months since that last interview with David Young, since we told him in no uncertain terms that he is currently the lead suspect in the investigation into the murder of Renee Bergeron, I have done a lot of work, and there have been some significant developments.

I've been back to Mobile three times since then, staying for weeks at a time. I've obtained phone records for key dates, and even for specific phone calls. I've unearthed criminal records from David's past that for some reason had never come up in our early searches. Charges in several cases of violent felonies. I've interviewed half a dozen new people, people connected to Renee and this case who I didn't even know existed just a few months ago. One of those interviews was with someone very close to the case. Someone who may in fact be the missing piece we've been searching for this entire time.

Someone who may know the whole truth and be able to give us the information we need to at long last wrap this up and hand it over to the district attorney. I hope to be able to share that with you one day soon. But I also, just weeks ago, received an anonymous tip. It was filed on the Mobile County Sheriff's Office website.

There's a lot about it that seems credible and it points to an entirely new suspect. It might be nothing, but it is very compelling. So I'm headed back to Mobile and I will explore it thoroughly until it can be eliminated or until it takes us someplace valuable, even if it someplace completely new.

Why can't we talk about Amanda's mom? It's produced by Arc Media for ID. The network executive producer is Meredith Russell. This series is hosted and written by me, Sarah Kaelin. Our senior audio producer is Katie Jane Fernilius. Our producer is Eden Turner. Executive producers are Zachary Herman and me. Scores by Travis Bacon.

Sound design and mixing are by Dean White. Audio engineering and editorial feedback provided by Josh Wilcox at Brooklyn Podcast Studio. Additional forensic research provided by Jennifer Leahy.