Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? - What to Listen to Next - Unraveled: The Long Island Serial Killer

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

If you enjoyed Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom, you may also like Unraveled: The Long Island Serial Killer, from ID.The Unraveled investigation continues with a 5-episode deep dive series. In this deep dive, we're going beyond the headlines to discuss several topics in more detail. These topics include the call Suffolk County didn’t want you to hear, and what it tells us about the night the entire Long Island serial killer saga began. Along with Rex Heuermann’s digital footprint, and Asian Doe and Sugar Bear and how these outlier cases connect to the broader investigation. Then we'll dig into other unsolved cold cases that are getting a new life since the arrest of Heuermann.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The following podcast contains explicit language and content that may not be suitable for all listeners. You're about to listen to a deep dive episode which we've been working on for five months. Some interviews were conducted before the June 6th, 2024 indictments for the two additional murders of Sandra Costilla and Jessica Taylor. However, the information we're about to share with you is just as, if not more, relevant. We will be back with update episodes and more deep dives later this summer. Stay, please. Yeah, there's somebody asking me. I'm sorry?

There's somebody asking me. What's your name? Shannon Gilbert. I'm sorry? Somebody asked for me. What's your name? Shannon Gilbert. Shannon Gilbert. If it wasn't for her, Rex Heuerman might still be a free man. What's wrong? Huh?

What happened? These people are trying to kill me. Shut up. Where in Long Island are you? I don't know. They want to kill me. For 12 years, Suffolk County police prevented the release of this 911 call, which Shannon made in her final hours. Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, died accidentally without foul play. Shannon was murdered. There is virtually no doubt. We launch our deep dive episodes with a look

at the case that started it all and ask one simple question. Is there enough here to have this case reexamined? from ID and joke productions this is unraveled long island serial killer serial killer. Captivated. To have your attention held by something extremely interesting. Synonyms include fascinated, consumed, and yes, obsessed. It's the most accurate word I could use to describe how this story has monopolized my life for the last 14 years and that of the true crime world. Investigators are once again searching the site of a gruesome find, three more bodies than a possible serial killer case.

Police have found the bodies of eight women along a stretch of road on Long Island. Ten bodies uncovered and whoever's responsible is still out there. Being born and raised on Long Island, I was living in Los Angeles when the victims were discovered along Ocean Parkway, and yet the impact was just as great as if I was still there. When a grade school friend got arrested and his battle with the then Suffolk County police chief James Burke kicked off, it occupied many of my days and nights. Yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo.

Yo, life's first, like 9, 15. I'm hoping that I would just be able to call you. I'm just like really pissed off right now because of my whole case. What followed were jailhouse calls, intense research, and an investigation into a dark world on Long Island that I had been lucky to escape. For the last seven years, I've actively worked to shine a spotlight

on the injustice these women endured. And almost a year ago, with the arrest of Rex Heuerman, we finally got some light in the story. Now to the big story this morning, the arrest in the Gilgo Beach murders case on Long Island. After more than a decade, it's the break that investigators and families have been waiting for. The accused Gilgo Beach serial killer, Rex Heuerman, he's appearing in court on Long Island.

As we start a series of deep dive episodes into some of the most compelling aspects of the Long Island serial killer case, I'm excited to touch on some of the things that I've learned but haven't been able to share. If you haven't listened to our earliest episodes, the ones we produced back in 2020, you're doing yourself a disservice. The history of this case is sorted, twisted, and it must be fully understood to really grasp the enormity of this case.

If you're not knowledgeable about Suffolk County, you think it's the Hamptons. It's not. It's the Amityville horror. That easily could have been me. There are girls that are not lucky. I was really lucky. The FBI was not involved in the Gilgo Beach investigation.

They had been removed by then-Chief Burke. Somebody's just keeping the cover up going. We're going to do deep dives into Rex Heurman, the victims, other serial killers that may be related, as well as the players involved in this saga. But first, we begin where it all started, with Shannon Gilbert, Joseph Brewer, and Michael Pack. I'm not interested in reiterating what's already been done. My focus today is very simple.

What do the 911 calls tell us about what happened on that fateful night in May of 2010? What proof is there that drugs may have been involved, if any? Where is the money? And why were no charges ever filed? And we'll look into the alleged connections between Shannon and Rex Heuerman.

In the early morning hours of May 1, 2010, Shannon Gilbert, a sex worker, traveled from New York City with her driver Michael Pack to the exclusive community of Oak Beach on Long Island. She had an appointment with a client named Joseph Brewer. Shannon ended up making a 23-minute 911 call that night, running away from the Brewer house before vanishing into the night. But Shannon's mom, Mary, would not go quietly. And her fight for her daughter led an off-duty Suffolk County Police Department officer to take his search dog out to a stretch of land along Ocean Parkway near Oak Beach.

And the rest is history. The Gilgo four victims were found first in December of 2010. Six more victims were discovered in April of 2011. And then finally, Shannon was located in December of 2011. If it wasn't for Shannon, we may never have known of a Long Island serial killer at all. The Suffolk County Police Department was never resolute on Shannon's death. Her cause of death was undetermined, or referred to as death by misadventure. The theory they hold is that for whatever reason, Shannon ran into the marsh at the

edge of Oak Beach and died there. The elements from wind, water, and beyond left little to be found other than slightly scattered skeletal remains. While the Suffolk County Police Department does have a page for Shannon on the Long Island Serial Killer website, they never seem to believe that she was murdered. And with the arrest of Rex Yurman, Shannon's case is slipping from the conversation. But should it? Where do you think Suffolk County Police Department right now places the Shannon Gilbert case in terms of priority?

Low priority to none. And do you feel like it's always been that way? I believe it's always been that way. That's John Ray, attorney for the estate of Shannon Gilbert. What do you think happened to Shannon? Shannon was murdered. There is virtually no doubt. For years, John Ray has been investigating the disappearance and death of Shannon Gilbert. He's conducted hours of depositions, collected boxes of evidence, and led a decade-long court

battle to get her 911 call and others, from the evening she disappeared, released to the public. For John Ray and for Shannon's family, the goal is very simple. Have the official manner of death changed to homicide. And get a fresh set of eyes from Suffolk County Police Department to re-examine the evidence. But is it a wild goose chase? The leading theory amongst law enforcement is that Shannon voluntarily came to Brewer's house to engage in a sex work transaction,

and may have consumed drugs that possibly had a negative effect on her. They infer that in a state of paranoia, she called 911, fled the residence, ran through the exclusive community, fled from her driver, knocked on several doors for help, but kept running until she disappeared. Believing that her state of consciousness may have been impacted by drugs, she then removed her clothes and ran into the bramble where she somehow died without any foul play. Plausible for sure, but is there evidence that would prove this theory false?

Let's start with the money. I've interviewed scores of sex workers. It is axiomatic in that trade that a sex worker does not engage in a tryst without being paid. They don't wait until the end for their money. Yet there's not a scintilla of evidence as to what Shannon was paid when and Pac denies that he ever saw any money exchanged and he does so under oath. And yet it was a three-hour trist that was arranged. That's not possible. When Shannon's pocketbook is found, there's money in it, but it's a modest amount of money. Brewer admits under oath that he did have sex with her. Yet no money

was exchanged? That's not possible. It does seem unlikely that Shannon, who was engaging in sex work, would go all the way out to Long Island, an hour and a half drive from New York City, spend three hours with a client, and yet no money's exchanged. In fact, in his deposition, Michael Pack talks about Shannon getting the call from Brewer that night and was asked what the agreement was. Pack states, quote, I think it was 500 for two hours, end quote. So was money exchanged or not?

Pack usually got paid at the end of the night, so when he left Oak Beach after not finding Shannon, it's believable he could have given up on his cut of the money. Did Shannon spend three hours with Brewer without getting paid first? Could be. Did everything go south before the transaction and money exchange was completed? Possibly. And then there's door number three, the possibility that a fear of incrimination stopped either Pack or Brewer from admitting to

the transaction. Hiring sex workers was and still is illegal in New York state. Of course, even if there was money exchange, that doesn't necessarily mean there's complicity in her death. So what about drugs? Was Shannon provided with any drugs? Were they able to detect whether there were drugs in Shannon's system? There were no discernible drugs in Shannon's system in the small amount of skin and hair that was left on her body. Most of it was skeleton. But you can't detect ordinarily the presence of a

drug in a hair sample or a skin sample if the drugs were just ingested a few hours before or a day before. You have to wait for it to work its way into those things. And so they couldn't test for whether she had used the drug that night or not. But what they could test for was whether or not she had ordinarily drugs in her system as in cocaine, heroin, and the like, morphine. None of them were found. So the idea that Shannon had a drug addiction is just not true. Do you recall what Pack said during his deposition about whether or not he'd ever seen Shannon

doing drugs, anything like that? Yeah, he claimed that Shannon would do drugs with customers, which most of the sex workers do. It's part of the deal. But she wasn't a regular drug user. Brewer says no drugs were exchanged or done by either of them that night, he testifies. Pack testifies he saw no drugs

and had no involvement in drugs that night as well. Now, do you want to believe them, that's up to you. I don't know. In the deposition, her driver Michael Pack was directly asked if he ever saw Shannon do drugs. And here's what he said. Quote, I never saw her do any drugs. I never saw her smoke marijuana or any drugs. I just saw her drinking alcohol. I don't even know if it was alcohol, but I'm guessing." It's alleged that Shannon and Brewer left Oak Beach that night together, a couple of hours before the 911 call. And there has been speculation that they went to procure drugs. But Brewer and Pack explained that trip differently to John Ray. There had been a call to CVS Pharmacy from Shannon's phone, around about 3 o'clock.

Pac claimed that Shannon called Pac and asked Pac to drive her to CVS at that time of the morning. He refused, so Brewer took her. Brewer, and she left. We have no proof of when they left. We have no evidence when they came back. Brewer claims that they drove to CVS Pharmacy, drove around in the parking lot, and then left and never went inside. He testified that Shannon called

and wanted to buy some fluids, you know, creams, you know, KY kind of thing. If she were doing her normal work, she brings a bag with her. And she did have a bag. And in the bag is when they bring their implements. And those implements always include KY cream or something like it. So for her to need to go and buy KY cream in the middle of the early morning hours is absurd. Something else, in other words, was really going on. And nobody's telling the truth about what it was. The late-night outing adds to the mystery of this case, as John Ray points out.

From what I understand with sex workers, when the man ejaculates, that's the end of the tryst. Whether it takes 10 minutes or an hour, that's the end of the tryst and everybody goes home. So apparently that's not what happened here and Brewer claims that he got oral sex from her earlier on in the night. So what are they doing for the rest of the time? Fair question. Shane and Brewer were not friends from what we know he was a first-time client and the drive back to the city was a long one. Why would Shannon want to hang out, especially if drugs were not involved, as claimed by Brewer?

And if drugs weren't part of the night, how do we explain Shannon's behavior other than something in that house really scaring her? Next, let's go to the 911 tapes and see if we can find some answers. On Friday, May 13, 2022, 12 years after Shane and Gilbert went missing, Suffolk County police finally released that 911 call that she made on that fateful night. It was John Ray, attorney for the Shane and Gilbert estate, that led the charge. Here's John from a couple of years ago, when he first got the right to listen to the calls long before the public release.

I asked for those 911 calls to be given to us. The police said that they wouldn't give them up because there was an active investigation going on. So I had to go to court to subpoena them, and immediately the county said, you're not getting the tapes, and we had to fight it out. And that fight took years.

I won the litigation to get them. The police department refused for years to give them up. I won the litigation to get them. The police department refused for years to give them up. They finally had to. They did. The refusal just added to the mystery and cover-up theories. I'd also like to point out that the tapes were released to the public after District Attorney Ray Tierney took office and after Rodney Harrison was appointed as police commissioner. And with the benefit of hindsight, we now also know that they had already identified Rex Heuerman as a suspect in the murders of the Gilgo Four.

Perhaps that bolstered their belief that Shannon's death was unrelated to the other victims found along Ocean Parkway. Regardless, we now have the tapes. Part of the mystery surrounding these tapes was a 2012 letter that then Suffolk County detective Vincent Stephens sent to Newsday, claiming that he'd heard the 23-minute tape. In essence, he stated there was much to do about nothing. We spoke to him before the tapes were released. You can hear that conversation in episode 6.

And he stood by his assessment of the 911 call. So let's see if you think his statements hold up. Quote, the 911 operator tried several times to get Gilbert's location. At one point, she mentioned she was near Jones Beach. End quote. Hello, you dialed into the 911 system. How can I assist you? Hello? Do you need the police? Where? I'm at Jones Beach.

You're at Jones Beach? By the Jones Beach. All right, let me connect you to state police. Stay on the line. Quote, in the house at Oak Beach, Gilbert was not about to be murdered. Her demeanor on the tape was calm. End quote. State police?

Yeah, there's somebody asking me. I'm sorry? There's somebody asking me. Where are you? There's somebody asking me. Quote, Gilbert never said she was at Oak Beach. It's hard to respond to a call when the person calling doesn't know where he or she is. End quote.

Where are you ma'am? I don't know. You're driving right now? No, I'm inside a house. I'm sorry? I'm inside a house. What house? I don't know.

Can you tell me where I am? I'm sorry? Can you tell me where I am? No, I can't. Quote, you can hear male voices. You can hear voices. You can hear voices. You can hear voices. You can hear voices. You can hear voices. You can hear voices. What house? I don't know. Can you tell me where I am? I'm sorry? Can you tell me where I am?

No, I can't. Quote, you can hear male voices on the tape, and they are calm. End quote. Steve, can you tell them to go off? No, time to go. Steve. You okay? Steve.

Please, time to go. We need to go. Throw that away, please. Okay. Come on, let's go. Come! Throw that away, please. Come on, let's go. Come on, roll that outside. Come on, roll that outside.

Come on, all of us. Come on, roll that outside. No, please. Come on, please. Please. Come on. Why? Why? Please Why Why County are you online?

Quote at no time during this call was she desperate end quote Please stop it, please, please stop it. Please stop it, no, please stop it. Please stop it, no. We fixed that, we fixed that. Please stop it, no, please stop it, please. Please stop it, please. No, what are you guys doing to me? What are you doing to me? Stop it!

Please get away. Gilbert, stop it! Get him out of here. What do you want us to call you? What case do you want us to call you? Quote, from what I heard on the call, Gilbert was not speaking as if she were in danger. End quote. Are we going to leave it to police? We are leaving it to police. Here are a few more sound ups where Shannon clearly feels like she's in danger.

I don't want to kill you. What's wrong? Huh? What happened? feels like she's in danger. It's unclear whether she'd screamed while she starts running through the Oak Beach neighborhood. A few minutes later, about 0.2 miles from the brewer house, Shannon then gets to Gus Galetti's house. You can hear her knocking. It's in the early morning hours and you hear him open the door and talk to her. She's out of breath. What's your name? What's your name? Somebody here to see you?

Huh? Hello? Hello? You? Hello? Are you alright? Are you alright? Don't get so hard. Where you going? Wait a minute. Wait for a while. I'll be right back.

Once Shannon runs off, Gus calls 911. Here's that call. So I live at Oak Beach in the association. There's a young girl about 14 years old running around here screaming and there's some guy trying to follow her. What's the address to you? I'm at ****. All right.

Do you have a description of the girl or the boy? The girl was about 14 years old, got blonde hair, very small. The boy, I can't tell, he was into like a suburban. What color? Black. Did you happen to get a pay number or anything? No, I didn't. According to the police, Michael Pack did drive a black SUV that night.

Meanwhile, Shannon runs down another street, about 350 yards towards the water to yet another house, possibly where she sees a light on. At 5.30 a.m., Barbara Brennan calls 911. Listen carefully, you can hear Shannon knocking. Suffolk Police, 875. What is the location of your emergency? 540. Some woman is knocking at my door. What is the location of your emergency? Uh 40.

Some woman is knocking at my door. What town are you in? Oak Beach Association. She says she's in danger. Do you know her or no? No I don't. I'm not letting her in. She's banging on your door now? Yes.

Did she say what kind of danger? No. Oh. And we live in a gated community. And I have an elderly mother here. All right, I'll get somebody right over there, okay? Okay, thank you. After that, 911 operators never hear from Shannon again.

Hello? She didn't spell it, but that's what it sounded like. Shannon wouldn't be found for more than a year and a half later. And she was less than 400 yards, or four football fields away. I'm not sure why the Suffolk County Police Department would downplay the importance of these calls for 12 years. Even if Shannon died as they theorize she did, these calls beg further examination. The two words that Shannon says the most on this call are why and please. Why? Why? Please. Please. Please.

Why? Please. Please. Stop it. Please. But while that may have some stipulate that Shannon could be out of it, maybe she's under the influence of something, there are plenty of moments where she seems very lucid. What's your name?

Shannon Wilber. What's your name? Shannon Gilbert. What's your name? Shannon Gilbert. I wanted to get Dr. Angela Arnold's take on it. Dr. Arnold is a psychiatrist with decades of experience, specializing in women's mental health. She had not heard the 911 calls

until I asked her to listen to them for the purpose of this interview. This poor girl was trying to get help and she made the assumption that they could find out where she was because it was obvious she had no idea where she was. So that was scary. She ran to another person's house. Then she left that house. Then she went to the woman's house. So I can't believe that she was out of it to a point that she didn't know what she was doing to go and knock on people's doors and ask for help.

So I feel like she was fearful for her life at that point, right? Was that a rational fear or was it paranoia? If we're asking if it was paranoia, the follow up to that was the paranoia induced by something. I would assume that when she got there, she was going there for a job to make money, right? You've got to imagine that when she got there, she was okay. But something happened to make her very, very nervous. And that's why she called 911. Right. She said, they're coming to get me. And she was very quiet about it. And then she wouldn't say anything for a while. Alexis, I don't believe it was paranoia. Did you note anything else about the men you heard in the background?

I found it very difficult to hear them, but there was a familiarity between them that bothered me. And that was very obvious to me. Did they seem calm to you? Did they seem like they were trying to help? No, I didn't get the feeling they were trying to help her. I got the feeling they were discussing what they were trying to help. No, I didn't get the feeling they were trying to help her. I got the feeling they were discussing what they were going to do. Michael Pack, Joseph Brewer.

Their story that the police claimed to buy was that they were both trying to get her out of this house, calm her down, get her back in the car so they could leave. That's sort of what they claim they were communicating about. Their story puts just enough doubt in everybody's mind, doesn't it? It's just a good enough story to put enough doubt in our minds.

I don't believe it. I believe she's the victim of so many things in this case. I can't put my finger on whether she was killed or if she fell down running away from them and died. But the fact that she was unclothed, that tends to lead me more to believe that somebody killed her. The 911 call is not as clear-cut

as the Suffolk County Police Department would like us to think that it is, especially since we do not have evidence of drugs being present during the encounter. So when did the police get involved? Were Pack and Brewer thoroughly investigated? And why were charges never filed? Next, we hear from Brewer. Go through the depositions and also take a closer look

at a supposed Shannon Gilbert-Rex-Hewerman connection. Whereas many of the Ocean Parkway victims vanished, sometimes months before they were reported missing, Shannon Gilbert was on everyone's radar immediately. She knocked on two doors, with each resident making their own 911 calls. And her family, especially her mom Mary, became actively involved in the search for her within days. However, Michael Pack, her driver, and Joseph Brewer, the client, seemingly stayed quiet.

That was until February of 2022, when Joseph Brewer went on a local talk radio show called Breaking It Down with Frank McKay on 103.9 LI News Radio. Placing this in context, this interview took place after District Attorney Ray Tierney took office, but before the 911 tapes were released to the public. We wouldn't categorize this interview as particularly hard-hitting, but Frank McKay was able to get some interesting new tidbits, including this soundbite from Joseph Brewer about how he found out Shannon was actually missing. The next morning I got a phone call. Somebody asked for Shannon. I said, oh no, you got the wrong number. And the guy said, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait.

Shannon Gilbert, the girl that was here last night. I said, oh, oh, oh, that guy. I said, oh, well, she left. And all of a sudden the voice on the other end of the phone said, no, no, she didn't leave. She ran away from my car, was banging on doors. I immediately called 911. An officer came down Suffolk County

and they didn't want to file a missing persons report. Throughout this interview, Joseph Brewer maintains his innocence, proclaims his empathy for the victims' families, and insists he cooperated with police every step of the way. I volunteered everything. They had full freedom to my house, my car, everything, DNA. Did you think about lawyering up? I said, no, you're my lawyers to the police because they wanted the same thing I want.

They want the truth. I know I didn't hurt anybody. I want to say I feel so sorry for these families and the parents of these girls. And I would do anything to help them get answers. While Joseph Brewer may not have lawyered up when police got involved in 2010, by the time he sat for his deposition with John Ray on October 20th of 2014, he very much was represented by counsel. In fact, to almost all questions related to his interactions with Shannon Gilbert, Brewer

responded with, quote, on advice of my attorney, I plead the fifth, end quote. Of course, he could be pleading the fifth solely because the actual act of soliciting Shannon for sex is a crime. Most of Brewer's interview with Frank McKay was focused on Peter Hackett, the other resident in Oak Beach whose actions propelled him to the top of the suspect list. Joseph Brewer sounds like he very much believes Peter Hackett should have been, or should now, be further investigated. And anyone who has spent even a little bit of time reading up on the Shannon Gilbert case will be familiar with the name Peter Hackett.

Honestly, we could probably do an entire episode on him alone. Is Peter Hackett a killer who couldn't help but draw attention to himself? Or is Peter Hackett a bumbling neighborhood busybody who just couldn't help but stick his nose in the situation that merely made him look guilty? Perhaps that's a topic for a future deep dive. If you get a chance to listen to the rest of the Frank McKay interview with Joseph Brewer, and if you have any thoughts on him

or his Peter Hackett theories, I would love to hear them. For this episode, we wanna focus on whether the 911 calls and the two individuals we know for sure had contact with Shannon that night deserve further examination. Here is my follow-up interview with attorney John Ray. The pack claims after he drives around for a short time looking for Shannon and he doesn't see her, so then he decides to leave. He never called to look for Shannon. There's no record

whatsoever that he ever called to look for her. The only reason he's back involved in Shannon's case the very next day is because Alex Diaz, who is Shannon's boyfriend, calls Pac and says, where is my girlfriend? Shannon's boyfriend was the first to question where she was. That question ultimately prompted the search that led to the discovery of the victims associated with the Long Island serial killer case. Unfortunately, this was the same man who years before her disappearance beat her in a domestic

violence incident to the point that she needed a plate surgically inserted into her face. That leads me to a big observation that I want to make here. Shannon was clearly in distress on these 911 calls, and all Brewer seemed to care about was getting her out of his house. Pack was responsible for driving Shannon out to Long Island, over an hour from where she called home. And knowing she's panicked, screaming and running in the neighborhood, he just leaves. In terms of the search for Shannon, it's heartbreaking that the only person looking for her at that point is her boyfriend, who broke her jaw. The marsh next to Oak Beach is about 27 acres and search teams missed Shannon.

It wasn't until seven months later when an off-duty officer and a service dog stumbled upon the remains of the Gilgo Four. After that, law enforcement increased their efforts and ultimately recovered Shannon over a year later. More with John Rae. Is it possible that Joe Brewer is just like not a great guy? more with John Ray. for the Trist. He's the one had sex with her and he's the one that tried to drive her away according to the voices on tape to drive her away from his house. Don't you think that it should have been the duty of the police over all these years

to have investigated these questions and obtained answers to them? Why do you think neither of them were charged with anything in relation to this evening? Both of them could easily have been charged with felonies. They could have been turned over to the FBI because the sex trafficking for that evening took Shannon from Jersey City, another state, to Manhattan and then out to Oak Beach. So they crossed state lines for the purpose of engaging in prostitution. They could have been hit with federal crimes, the feds could have been called in, they weren't. We know why, because Chief Burke would not allow the investigation to go forward. He

rewarded it at every stage. These two men could have been arrested by the Suffolk County Police Department for engaging in prostitution and soliciting and actually selling the girl. And that's particularly true in Pac's case because he was already a convicted human trafficker and had done time in federal prison for it. So it's absurd that they weren't arrested and no good reason is given for it. So it's absurd that they weren't arrested and no good reason is given for it. Pak was convicted about seven years earlier of a felony charge, misuse of a passport, in connection with flying an undocumented individual from China into the United States.

He claims he was young and naive and thought that he was only accompanying them as a translator. True or false, we only have his word on that. I did reach out to the then Chief of Detectives, Dominic Verrone, to see if he had any insight as to why there wouldn't have been any charges filed either against Michael Pack or Joseph Brewer. He texted back, quote, Your question would best be answered by a prosecutor. They would have had knowledge as to whether there was enough evidence to make those charges. It would be difficult without Shannon. It would also have not been prudent until Shannon's body was found.

An autopsy was conducted, and investigators were fairly certain that Brewer or Pack had not murdered Shannon, end quote." And that does make sense. Prosecutors like to make sure that they have the evidence they need to make the biggest charges stick before they would consider lesser charges. That said, we also know that when Shannon was found, a couple of weeks later, Jamesburg became the chief of police and his now revealed co-conspirator was district attorney Thomas Spoda. Clearly, if either of them wanted this to go away, charges were not going to be filed.

But now, Suffolk County has elected new leaders and the LISC task force has proven how valuable a new set of eyes can be on an investigation. I asked John Ray what it is that he wants. there is no statute of limitations. In this case now, you would need to acquire additional evidence of the nature of what occurred to her on that evening. Was she involved in some kind of a game, some kind of a sexual sport? Were there other people there that night? There's several different kinds of evidence that could move the needle on this case. An unusual three-hour trust. You know, was that because she was servicing more than one person? It's very unlikely that it

was for a man who, like Brewer, is one single guy getting service for the night, any of that kind of evidence, which still could be available with the right investigator asking the right questions kind of evidence, which still could be available with the right investigator asking the right questions of the various people. If you could develop that evidence, the case would move from, in the police state of mind, from an accident to murder. And that's all I would ask is that they're able to do that. You can't solve a murder if you don't think it occurred. There is one more thing we should talk about, and that's whether or not Rex Heuerman and Shannon Gilbert had crossed paths. If Rex Heuerman was as frequent a client of sex workers as the district attorney alleges

he was, then it wouldn't be a total surprise that they may have met up. John Ray revealed in an affidavit from a former cab driver who claims that she picked up Shannon from a motel and saw Rex Herman leave. We covered that in a previous episode. But at a symposium, John Ray shared another possible clue, one of Shannon Gilbert's diary excerpts. The only one that had any significance in respect to this case that we could find was one name written on a single page and it was Chris and it was a line crossed through Chris

and right next to it was written the word Massapequa. So of all the places on Long Island that she could make notes about, it's Massapiqua. I think it is true that Toyman used the name Chris and his stepson is named Chris. We know that he used common names when he used fake names to solicit sex workers. As far as that diary entry that said Chris Massapiquua. I don't know if it was dated, but how does that entry line up with the motel scenario in which you have an affidavit from a witness detailing with the cab driver? Could that diary entry have led to her going out there? Yes, it could have. The diary is not a very lengthy diary. It doesn't seem to cover a very long period of time. It's kind of like a book of notes of the names of Johns

in various places and phone numbers and the like. The time period when the driver says that, the taxi driver says that Shannon was in that motel with Herman ranges from September or October to December of the year of 2009. So only months before she disappears in May of 2010. So it kind of fits in the narrative. After 14 years on this case, I can't tell you with 100% certainty whether or not Shannon was murdered or by whom. But I can tell you that this case was not properly investigated, and Shannon's family

deserves answers. Theories are not enough. It's time for fresh eyes. It's time for someone in authority to give Shannon the attention she deserves. She was abandoned by everyone during her final hours. She's been dismissed by those in power even after her death. Let's do right by her and get some answers. Next week, we deep dive into the digital evidence associated with the case, Rex Yurman's text

messages, web searches, and more. We unravel the cat and mouse game between Rex and investigators. You won't believe how hard he tried to stay off law enforcement's radar. Unraveled is produced by Joke Productions 4ID. It's a great way to get your Lisa Ribicoff is our associate producer. The music and score that you've heard in this podcast is by Biagio Messina. Subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It helps a lot when you subscribe, rate and review the podcasts that you enjoy listening to. Thank you for listening and thank you for your support. You