Why Won't You Date Me? with Nicole Byer - Advice From an Intimacy Expert (w/ Shan Boodram)

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

Sexologist and intimacy expert Shan Boodram (Sexology, Lovers & Friends) joins Nicole to teach her how to radiate better vibes on dates, master the art of life goal prioritization, and explore the intriguing concept of marriage pacts. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to be the intimacy coordinator on 'Too Hot to Handle'? Shan spills all the beans on that and more. Plus she gets personal, revealing how she turned a fuckbuddy into a spouse, and shares the guidelines governing her non-monogamous relationship.Submit a dirty message to Nicole! Write it to [e-mail] for a chance to have it read on air.Follow Nicole Byer: See Nicole on tour! Get tickets at linktr.ee/nicolebyerwastakenTwitter: @nicolebyerInstagram: @nicolebyerMerch: podswag.com/datemeNicole's book: indiebound.org/book/9781524850746

Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Please tell me why! Ooh, baby! Welcome to another episode of Why Won't You Date Me? A podcast where Meena Kulbhair is exploring love and stuff with people I think are interesting. My guest today is a certified sexologist and intimacy expert.

She's hosted shows like Sexology, MTV's Guide to Sex, and her podcast, Lovers and Friends. Her new reality dating show, The Marriage Pack, is now streaming. Ooh, and I'm so excited to have her today. And maybe her expertise can help me find someone. Not anyone, because I'm no longer picky. I'm looking for something specific. It's Shan Boodram. Yay. I don't even know how to match that energy. Ah. Oh, I have energy for days. Shan, thank you so much for being here.

Oh, thank you for having me. It's such a joy. Congrats on all your success. I've just been such an admirer of your work, and it's an honor to be here. And I was actually telling your producer that knowing that you have done this since 2017 is insane. Insane. Podcasting is hard. It is hard. And with my schedule, it's been wild. I can't believe I ever used to do these in person, but I am starting to like do them in person again. But it is it is pretty fucking wild.

Yeah, it's pretty wild. So that's actually a good little hack there to do the remote ones. And remote in many cases, I mean, that was the gift of the pandemic. It taught us that intimacy is not bound by in-person interaction. So we can still create a flow and still have a great time through this experience. But I do mine in person still. Maybe that's the reason why I'm like, this thing is unsustainable. That's what it literally feels to me. It is a lot. Yeah. And I used to like stack them and stuff and do like three in a row. Sometimes

I still stack them, but you know, it is what it is. And I love doing it. I love talking to people. Shan, how did you become a sexologist and what is a sexologist? Okay. We'll start with that. So a sexologist is to sex what a nutritionist is to food. So I study sex as it relates to biology, psychology, sociology. And I say that because sex workers are to food what a chef is to sex workers are to sex what a chef is to food. So by that, what I mean is that I study sex. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm the best at it, right? Like I can tell you why you should eat certain meals.

I may not know how to cook them personally. So it's a ever evolving field. There's many ways people can show up in it and do work in it, kind of like a nutritionist. I am a public facing sex and relationship expert. I started off going to college for journalism and then I graduated and then wrote a book called Laid in 2009. And then since then, I just got certified as a sexologist in America. Then I got certified as sex education counselor in Canada, where I'm from. And then I got a bachelor's degree in psychology

and I'm about to finish my master's in psychology. And I'm still learning to this day. Like I am always being introduced to new concepts, new ideas. And so that two weeks they give us in high school is definitely not enough. This is like a lifelong process and vocation for damn sure. It really is. And I love that you brought up a nutritionist because I have a bone to pick with nutrition. I had one nutritionist and the only thing she did was take me to a Sprouts, which is the grossest grocery store if you shop there sorry about it and she was like these are vegetables you should eat vegetables and i was like i hate this a thin lady leading a woman through his sprouts a fat woman through sprouts being like these are

vegetables i was like this is humiliating yeah that's terrible. Bitch, these are vegetables. And I was like, I know, but I use cucumbers for something else. Anywho, so what made you interested in sex? Oh my gosh, you gave me the perfect segue just now. I grew up having sex with carrots and I was a really, really just horny kid. Like from the age of- Baby carrots or full carrots? Whatever I could get ahead of my, hold on. Whatever was in the refrigerator at the time.

I was just, I was always naturally interested in the human body. Always naturally interested intimacy. And not like in an age appropriate way, I think. One of the greatest things I got to do in this sexology course was read like age by age, normal sexual behavior. So, you know, sometimes when you hear about like five-year-olds playing house and you're like, that's not normal. That's not okay. That's actually like perfectly age appropriate to be like exploring your genitals

or curious about different parts of your body at that age. So I believe I was like really age appropriately interested in the human body. I obviously come from a Caribbean background and I went to school at a Catholic school. My parents didn't really agree with that notion. So what that taught me as I got older, and once that curiosity, which I was told was a very bad thing, was also matched with hormones, I just had like raging desire. And because I knew it was something that I wasn't supposed to feel or experience, I didn't ask any questions. I definitely didn't go to any authorities. So I ended up trying to find any methods I could that were backdoor or sneaky.

So I used to watch tons of porn as a kid. I read fiction novels, The Coldest Winter Ever, if you're old enough to recall that one, Fly Girl. These weren't just books for me. These were manuals. I was reading them like, okay, this is what sex is. And lo and behold, two years later, when I started actually having sex, it was nothing what sex was. Like in the coldest winter ever, she has penetrative sex for the first time. And in the first stroke, she has an orgasm. And I'm like, yep, expectation set. That's what's going to happen to me. That clearly wasn't my experience. So essentially at around 19 years old, I was at a crossroads where sex was so disappointing to me. I never felt loved. I didn't feel good to my body. I didn't have orgasms. I wasn't getting closer to people. I for damn sure wasn't getting closer to myself. So I was like, okay, well, either my parents and the church was right. This is a really terrible thing that you should just leave alone. Or I'm interacting with this in a really problematic way. So I got a library card and started reading just to see if I was, if there was another way out

there. And I realized there was great information and there were so many things I didn't know about my own body. But the problem was I found the information to be kind of like bad sex. It was dry and monotonous and predictable and boring and faceless. So I thought to myself, somebody should bring this to life. Somebody should make sex education sexy and approachable, just like the books that I read. People shouldn't be having sex with carrots at 14. It didn't do anything for me. But all that to be said, I just looked at this as an opportunity to fill a hole that I felt like society deeply needed to have penetrated.

And that's what I am. Literally and figuratively. There we go. What were some of the things that you realized that you didn't know about your body? I mean, I'm not sure if you knew about your clitoris growing up. I didn't. I remember in gym class the teacher who looked like she had never had sex before was like this is the woman's anatomy

this is the labia minora this is labia majora this is the vaginal hole this is the urethra this is the clitoris she was doing these huge sweeping motions to describe the parts of the body and so I was like the clitoris what is that

and then I think there was some brief explanation about this being a glands to describe the parts of the body. And so I was like, the clitoris, what is that? And then I think there was like some brief explanation about this being a glands that can be rubbed and like lead to pleasurable, like a pleasurable release, if that was her explanation. But I remember because there wasn't like more specificity around it that I was like, okay, well, the clitoris is where you get pleasure. And during porn, women orgasm, you know, endlessly from being stroked. That must mean the clitoris is a special button that's somewhere inside of the vagina. And furthermore, because there was this rhetoric at the time that the clitoris is hard to find, which is so crazy now that I'm older.

You're like, what? Yeah. What? I've looked at mine and I'm like, it's there. There it is. I see it right there. Exactly. But like at the time it was like, the clitoris is so hard to find. The woman's body is so complicated. So I just naturally assumed it was this like elusive button that was like somewhere in the twisting, winding tunnels of the vagina. So yeah, there was just like basic stuff.

I literally didn't know. I truly could go on. But I'm curious, did you grow up knowing where your clitoris was? I don't think I discovered it until, I don't know, maybe my late teens, early 20s. But I don't remember not knowing. Do you know what I mean? So my first vibrator was something I stole from Spencer's. It was a glow in the dark vibrator and I used it. And then I remember being like, Ooh, if I rub here, that's fun too. So I think I didn't know about it until I was like told that's what it was. But I always knew if I like rubbed my pussy a certain way, things would be nice and fun.

Yes. You know what is such a, that is my truth too. Cause I started masturbating, I believe from like age 12 or 13. So I knew what to do. I knew that going in the bathroom and like getting to a place that had jets, like my grandma and grandpa's place, they had a bathtub with jets. Let me tell you something. Like I was like, let me go to grandma and grandpa's this weekend. Let me tell you something. Like I was like, let me go to grandma and grandpa's this weekend. So I knew something could happen, but I just, yeah, I didn't know the name for it. And then I also didn't think that it was an orgasm because I'm like, well, this isn't coming from penetration and you got to get yourself there. And that was a thing that was like, not hard to grasp, but I was like, oh, if this person's not doing it, I can either direct them or just do it myself. Yes. And having to take on that responsibility, I think is something that we should be empowered to do. Not feel like, oh, if you have to do this, it's a failure. So yeah,

there's just like, there's so much basic information. I actually am so in awe of Gen Z and the younger generation who grows up with so much more agency and knowledge and ideas around consent. And it's just like, it's beautiful. To me, sex ed keeps evolving. And I'm just so grateful to be a part of that bit of history.

That's like on the right side of history. Like that's actually moving in the right direction. I think so. I tend to think we're all a bit non-binary. I truly do think gender is just a weird thing that we conform to. And sexuality is such like a huge spectrum, I think. But I want to talk about, so you worked as the intimacy expert on Netflix's Too Hot to Handle. Yes, I have been doing that since pre-pandemic.

That was such a crazy, surprising show because we worked on it before the pandemic and it came out April, 2020. So the timing of Too Hot to Handle coming out, it was a show about people who could not have sex and all of us were in that boat, right? We weren't allowed to see anybody or go anywhere. And so it became this huge cult classic hit. I'm so grateful for that experience because similarly to how Fifty Shades of Grey made BDSM a part of the pop culture zeitgeist,

that year that was the number one search thing on Google when it came to sex. And the year that Too Hot to Handle came out, Tantra was the number one search sex trend on Google. So that show directly impacted the way that people thought that sex could be performed. And so actually there's another season coming up, but I'm getting to go and do that this year too. So it's something that, yeah, it's a lot of fun. And I get to meet really good looking, stupid people. So that's it. They're pretty, they're fun little dum-dums. Yes.

What does it entail being the intimacy expert on that show? So I lead workshops. So twice in the season, usually I'll come through and I did shibari. I do yoni puja a lot, which is pussy worshiping, which is my favorite. Shibari is ropes? Yes. You know what's up. You know what's up. Yes. I've gotten to do stuff about like the transfer of sexual energy, using your sexual energy to do art. I've done, you know, women warrior workshops there. So it's like another fun alternative way of looking at your sexuality and

your sensuality. And it's always visual and it's creative and it's usually based in sacred sex. And so, yeah, I think it's a really cool thing to be able to bring to pop culture because there's nothing else like it. So that is like one of those things that's something new and novel. The show that I'm doing right now on Roku that's called The Marriage Pact is cool because it's a concept that everyone knows about, but you've actually never seen those put to the test. So it's nice to do both where you're kind of in this whole other

outwardly realm of intimacy that people have heard of, but never really experienced. And on the flip side, doing something that's like, oh, everybody knows what that is, but no one's actually tapped in and said, okay, what actually happens when people do turn 30 and it's time to ring true on that marriage pact? Like, what next?

So wait, the marriage pact, I'm sorry, do you mind explaining it a little bit more? So it's people. I feel like you have definitely had to have had a marriage pact. I feel like in the comedy world, that would make so much sense. Really? Because it's like, there's got to be dudes that you're like, I get along with this person so well that. Yeah, they're usually gay. Right. That's, that's even better. That's the premise is essentially like we get along so well, we could do life together. Amazing. So if we don't figure this out by the time we're 30,

let's just get together, go get a little farm, go adopt some kids and just like live out our life peacefully and beautifully and harmoniously. So that's what a marriage pact is. And sometimes together, go get a little farm, go adopt some kids and just like live out our life peacefully and beautifully and harmoniously. So that's what a marriage pact is. And sometimes it's not always that. Sometimes it's people who they were together before and like, it didn't work out, but you know, you really did me wrong. One of the couples, they were exes. There was a cheating problem. Like you need some time to mature. So if you turn 30 and you're still single, we can try again. Other people, it was long distance relationships. And it's like, man, I can't move. You can't move. But we know we have something. So if we get to this point in time and we still haven't found anybody, let's just bite the bullet and actually

move and see if we can make this into something. How wild. No, I have no packs of that sort with anybody. I am single, single, single, single, single. Okay. You're also a relationship expert, um, and a dating coach. So like what is, okay. So I'm single. Uh, most of the people listening are single, uh, or maybe, I don't know, maybe they're not, but how does, how do you, how do I do it? You know, I think you've probably gotten tons of great advice. I would say like there's three really big decisions in life. There's who you're going to life partner with, what you're going to do for a living, like what your purpose is and where you're going to live. going to do for a living, like what your purpose is and where you're going to live.

I think that over time, we've gotten really good at taking the time necessary for two of those three decisions, right? People really think now about their careers. Back in the day, it's like your parents worked at a coal mine, so that's what you do. Back in the day, it's like, okay, your parents said you're going to marry this person, so you marry this person. Now we understand that these are decisions that take a lot of education, a lot of time, a lot of insight, a lot of thought. And if you don't, you're going to end up doing the work in another way, right? So if I take on a job that it's actually not meant for me, because I don't really find out what my purpose is, I'm going to struggle to try to find motivation within that job. I'm going to struggle to be happy within that job. So whatever work I thought I skipped by just doing the plug and play thing, I'm going to have to do it on the back end of it. I think similarly with dating, a lot of people really

don't take location into consideration as heavily as they should. People move to LA for their job. People move for family reasons. People move for weather. But do they actually look at the market of where they would be valued the most, where their look is most marketable, where their personality and their skill sets are most marketable, where their style of life is most compatible and make a choice to move for those reasons. I saw a post recently where someone was talking about, they're from Toronto, Canada, and they said, you know, in Toronto, and this is a black woman who's non-ambiguous and she's like, in Toronto, I feel invisible. In New York, I feel sexualized and fetishized and sexy. But when I go to Ghana, I feel like a queen. I feel like I am like wanted, I'm desired. I feel like I am everyone's top pick. And so I was like, man, move to Ghana, right? Like, I know it's not that simple, but I think that a lot of people don't kind of consider that. And I often see this even in the

inverse and like men, men who are complaining about women being not traditional enough and women aren't, you know, women are too modern these days and they don't have the basic skills. And I was like, why don't you move to Wisconsin? Like, why are you complaining in New York? don't have the basic skills. And I was like, why don't you move to Wisconsin? Like, why are you complaining in New York? Right? Like that's your, your girl's not there, right? Like the culture's just not set up for that kind of person. So if it's a part of your life, that's like actually frustrating you and you really, really want to figure it out. I would really look at the location piece pretty heavily. And a lot of times too, the other things that we're trying to tell people to do, right? Like I wrote a book, it's called The Game of Desire. And I acknowledge this was a shortcoming that I did,

where I am like, you know what? Like you are whoever you consistently choose to be. So if whoever you are right now is not getting you the results that you want, like change yourself. Like that's, you'll always have a chance every day you can wake up and say, okay, like what habits do I want to reinforce today? And if you do that over time consistently and put that in practice, you'll become that person. But a lot of the habits that you have to choose or pick up are in reaction to the fact that your environment is just not naturally aligned with you. So rather than trying to constantly change yourself to fit the mold, like why not pick a mold that is just like designed for who you are and amplifies the things that you already have. And then you can work on

self-improvement from a place of love and acceptance versus a place of not feeling like you're enough. Interesting. Where should I go? Where have you been before? I mean, you've traveled, you're well-traveled. Where have you been before that you're like, oh, I hit different over here? over here? Nowhere. Really? Yeah. I never hook up when I'm on vacation. Yeah. I nowhere. It's all the same. That's interesting. I mean, I definitely couldn't even read you and say that you haven't because you've been around. I mean, you're wildly successful. Maybe you're not bringing the vacation mentality with you. I mean, I don't want to hypothesize and say something that you're doing wrong, but there is an episode on my podcast. That's with this woman whose name is glow and glow was like a professional traveler. So she did the market research to kind of figure it out because she got to a place in 2022 where she's like, I

want love. I want a person to be my next greatest adventure. Like I've done the career thing. That's been my adventure. I've done the personal growth thing. That's been my adventure this year. I want a person. I want love to be my adventure. So she got a Euro pass and she just went around to like various cities in Europe on Tinder and got, I think Tinder and Bumble and got something called it the passport where you can swipe in advance. So she just set up dates in like 20 cities. I'm not familiar with Europe. I've been to like two countries there. But however many cities you can go to on this pass, she set up dates in advance in all of those cities and just went around to see like where she got the best reaction. And she got, I think she's engaged or married now. And

it was like a strategy that she utilized. So I would maybe suggest looking at that. If you're willing to do that for love, I think that she did that in a really like systematic and strategic way. I matched with nobody in Greece, and then I matched with someone in Amsterdam the day I got back from Amsterdam. I don't have... Well, maybe you need the passport thing. I don't have good luck.

Oh, no, I did it. I was swiping ahead before I got there. Okay. Well, maybe we just need to get an assistant who can, like we can outsource that job to somebody who could do it more rigorously. And that's like a reality of it too, that depending on, I guess, the market as well, like the numbers game ends up being more arduous for some people than others.

There's always a way to systematize it, but not, no, I'm not taking away from your experience of the fact that like, yeah, that's annoying as fuck. Real quick. We do have to take a break. We're back. Okay. So are you, you are married, correct? I am married, yes. How did you do it? Literally moved to a place that really suited me. Like I talk about sex for a living. So I needed somebody who was really liberal and I married my fuck buddy. So that made sense too,

because it was somebody who was not inherently judging me and who had like a similar passion to me. I didn't realize at the time when we got together that that was my person. I think that was actually a huge plus too, is never in a million years when people say like, oh, you just know. You could have never, ever, ever convinced me in the beginning of our relationship that this guy would be the person I would have two kids with. But the way that we did it was actually a strategy that I didn't even learn until years later. But healthy intimacy

is not about like having a goal in mind and trying to rapidly advance towards that goal. Like healthy intimacy is not India. Like we got to get to India. And at all costs, like we're constantly trying to figure out like what plane or train we have to get on next to get to this destination. Instead, it's like a leisurely walk to nowhere. You take one step and then you stop and look at the trees and you hang out. And then you're like, do I feel comfortable here? Or was I happier a couple steps back? Cool. Let's go back. All right. You know, we went back and actually kind of feel like I'm bored of you now. I'm going to go left. You go right. Or you know what? I really enjoy this walk with you. Let's walk ahead more. Like it's this, it's directionless, right? It's just constantly asking yourself,

do I feel good? Am I happy? Do I feel like the best me is possible hanging out with this individual? And that's what he and I just did. Like it was this really slow, aimless build where thankfully, again, I didn't really see him in that husbandly light. And we just kept enjoying each other's time together and like slowly advancing the intimacy. And that just allowed this pressure-free opportunity for us to get to know each other. And by the time that we looked up and we were married, it just felt like so, everything just felt really, really natural. So that was a strategy I think that worked really well for me, but I really, really focused on how I felt every step of the way. And if I started to feel weird, like in little stuff, like, man, this person texts me and asked me if they wanted to hang out today.

And then I text them back and they took three hours. I don't like that feeling. I'd be like, I don't like this feeling. If you really can't continue on a conversation with me because you're in the middle of something, don't even initiate it with me. I'm actually cool with not hearing from you for the day. So if you feel like, oh, I'm really busy, but let me just try to get like a quick what's up into this person.

I don't need that. And I just did that a lot. And same that invited a culture for him where he was just like, I don't like this thing that you're doing. And that just kind of just allowed us to constantly focus on, do we feel good hanging out together? Do we actually like the time that we spend? Do I like who I am with you? Like, it's important for me to like you, of course, but above all else, I got to feel like I'm the best version of me in reflection of you. And I think that trend, starting that trend in that particular way was really helpful. I don't know if I would have the ability to do that for somebody who I was like, oh, this could be my husband. Because I've had those people before and I acted a mess around them.

So do you not believe in dating with intention? I've tried to answer this question. I think I've like come up with answers I like and sometimes I don't. But you know when you're taking on a job, you just come out of university, like you have an idea of like what ultimate job you want to do. But you're not looking at every role that you take on like, I'm going to make this the one. You might rise up in the company and be surprised by it.

But sometimes it's just like, it's an alchemy, right? Like I get to this job, I do the best I possibly can here. When I feel like my time here is done, I either see if there's room for improvement or I move on to something else that I'm interested in. So ultimately it's like, you're going to progress if you give the best of yourself and you call and expect the best out of others. And so I think naturally, if you just have that alchemist mindset with dating, you're probably going to enjoy the experience more and end up where you want to go versus being so hyper-focused on this end result. I think sometimes when we're so hyper-focused on the end result, we're not even asking ourself if we're enjoying the experience of getting there.

But I know tons of people who are like, yo, date one. I asked the person, like, are you ready for kids and for marriage? We talked for seven hours straight. And that's what I'm married with today. So I definitely don't have a one size fits all answer to this. What's what's your approach? What is my approach? I think I try to date with intention. Like I try to be like, OK, maybe this will be my person. But like usually in the first like 10, 15 minutes, I know absolutely if I want to go out with this person or not. I've only had a couple instances where I was like, do I like this person? I don't know there. There's something about them that I think I like. I guess I'll go out with them again.

That's cool. That's actually cool. I think that's a vibe. I mean, I would be cautious of like, you shouldn't, if you're kind of come to a decision in 10 minutes, whether or not you want to date somebody again, it's like you're auditioning them. And then you have to, like if you would look at the world as a giant mirror,

right? Even if you don't think, cause you're probably a great actor. Even if you don't think that you're giving off a vibe, like I'm judging you. If you are in fact judging somebody, that could make them more nervous, make them less relaxed. It could make them try to say things to impress you versus things that are authentic. So that experience that you may not even realize could be like really changing how that person's able to show up on the date

because in your mind, you're judging them and they subconsciously know that too. Because in your mind, you're judging them and they subconsciously know that too. Oh, I guess that makes sense. I mean, I just, I don't think I'm necessarily judging anyone. I just like, you know, you meet someone and like five minutes in, you're like, oh, this is gonna be my friend for life. Or like five minutes in, you're like, I don't think I ever want to see this person again. I don't think I like them at all. That's all I mean by that like I yeah I just um yeah it's not quite judging I just like know that like I like this person or I don't like this person yeah that's judging Nicole um

is it well I mean yeah I mean that's a rapid decision in a short amount of time that's judging Nicole. Is it? Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, that's a rapid decision in a short amount of time. That's probably, and if you're making decisions that are that quick, you're using a lot of past information to make that assumption. So it's like you're living in your past to like predict if this person is aligned with your future. And not that that's a bad thing. I mean, obviously that's for survival and you meet so many people, you don't have the time to give everybody two weeks to that discovery process. But if instead you're like, let it be whatever it is, like, I don't even have to decide if I want to hang out with you again, you know, tomorrow, right now, right now, all I got to do is just focus on just enjoying myself today. So I'm going to ask you a question that I am actually curious about and that's it. And at the end of this,

and you ask me, I won't even, it wouldn't even occur to me to be like, oh, should we hang out later? Until later comes, you're like, hey, you know, do you want to hang out tomorrow? And then I might be like, oh, let me think about that. So just maybe that mind frame of just being like, I'm already here. So there's no point in me like trying to figure this thing out right now. Let me just enjoy it for whatever it is going to be and take shape. But I'm also a person too. Even when you said friendships, I cannot do fast friendships. I am so slow. Like it can take me like two years to decide. It took me a year to even hang out with my husband for the first time. Like I'm just like, gather a lot of information about you. Like,

let me just observe you. Let me like have these little interactions with you. And over time, if like it feels good, then we'll do something that's like more, um, more serious, like spending dedicated time together. So, but I know tons of people who are like fast friends. They just instantly know it could just be that my gut is really lazy and slow. I mean, my gut is sometimes wrong. I've like decided I'm like, Ooh, this will be my new friend. I like this person. And then I've hung out with them I've like decided I'm like, oh, this will be my new friend. I like this person. And then I've hung out with them a couple of times and been like, nope, I made a mistake. I don't want this. This is not for me.

And you're not the person I thought you were. So we can just see each other a little bit less. Have you had the flip happen to where you meet somebody in the first 10 minutes? You're like, oh, this person's strange. And then like a day later or five times later, you're like, okay, now I get it. Like I get your thing that I didn't really get it before. Yeah. I dated this person for a while. And on our first date, I was like, I don't know about you. And the whole date I was like, I don't know if I'll ever see them again. And then I drove them

to their car. And then we like had a moment in the car where I was like, wait, maybe I do like you. I don't know. And then I went out with them again. And then I was like, yeah, I think I do like them. And then the third time I was like, oh, I really, really like them. But, you know, it didn't last. So, hey, who knows? That's also really great, though. To have three times with somebody. Like, as somebody who, I mean, my relationship is not monogamous. I wouldn't say it's open because nobody engages. But it's not monogamous. It never was.

But I think about that. Like, man, I kind of miss dating for that. You know what I mean? Like, it's so cool just to link up with a random stranger who is not trying to make money off of you. They're not trying to get a job opportunity. They're trying to find somewhere to live. Like there's no other reason for you to want to connect with me other than like, do I enjoy your company? And then devoting that time to that exploration phase is really, is really cool. Like I miss that a lot. That's interesting. I mean, it happens so infrequently for me that I'm like,

that's wild that you missed that. I don't have, I have very bad luck dating. I don't want to say bad luck. I mean, I am a fat black woman who does live in LA, which does work against me. It also worked against me in New York. I should probably move to Iowa or fucking, I don't know where fat people are more accepted. I don't know. Uh, but also I'm not moving to Iowa. I'm not moving to a shitty little place that I don't want to live in.

Uh, I think that's just, it is what it is. And I do think there's somebody out there for me and one day i'll meet them and it'll be nice have you tried africa or like no i've never been to africa but i do want to go um i think i might be going at the end of the year with my friend um but yeah maybe maybe i'll find someone in africa yeah and even i really don't have good luck traveling. Yeah, I can, I mean,

I actually read a story recently of a black woman who went to Italy, and Italy is often pegged as one of those countries, like, Italy loves black women. And she's like, I have never experienced the level of blatant and painful racism that I experienced in this country. And she was telling her stories there. So I definitely don't think that, I mean, we live in a racist world.

So I definitely don't think that there's like probably like a one size fits all answer. But I definitely have heard so many beautiful black women who have gone to Ghana. Even if you just go and it's not even about like, you don't have to find your person there. Because again, like as somebody who has accomplished what you have in your life,

there's no way that you could have done it without putting in the priorities and the effort that you have in your career. So like if LA is where it's logical for you, like there should be no problem. And maybe the work is harder just by the results of the fucked up culture and the nature that's here and the mindset that's here, but there definitely are people. But I think even just going to those places and feeling the feeling, you know what I mean? Like sometimes that's even the reminder that you need, like, okay, this, it exists. Like this level of the gaze, right?

Like this gaze of like wonder and appreciation and lust and love and respect. Like that gaze exists for me. And then once I know that it exists, I'm able to look for it or be more aware of it within my environment, even if it's more scarce. But I don't want to also fetishize a place that could not be your experience either.

But I've definitely heard people say amazing things. Okay. Well, keep that in mind. I knew a man from Ghana. When I worked at Lane Bryant, the security guard at the store was from Ghana, and he was the nicest man in the world. His name is Mr. Henry.

I wonder where he is. Anyway, you said that your relationship was not monogamous, but nobody acts on it., you said that your relationship was not monogamous, but nobody acts on it. So doesn't that just mean it's monogamous? It does. I mean, I guess the potential is there. And I would say that exclusivity or monogamy is not a part of our commitment agreement, right? So if my partner came to me and was like, I met somebody today and I really want to go on a date with them, it wouldn't be like, we need to have a meeting. Let's call a therapist. Like it wouldn't be that.

It would be like, oh, okay. Like let's explore that. And like, think about what that looks like. And our relationship, like I said, we started off as friends with benefits. And when we started to, we moved in together and I was like, okay, well we should probably call this something now because we live together. But at the time I was like seeing somebody else. And I loved the fact that this was the first relationship where all that, like, let me see your phone or who are you talking to? Or why are you being so nice to that person? Like that didn't exist. And even early on in our interactions, I remember he and I were on the phone and he was like, I was like, where are you going? And he's like, I don't know if I should say this to you. He's like, I know

that we're like just sexual partners, but I don't know if I should say this to you. I was like, what, what is it? He's like, oh, I'm going on a date with somebody else. And I was like, oh, cool. Well, where are you guys going? And then we just talked about it. And then afterwards he called me and told me about the date. It was a kind of like a vibe that we were like, we really liked the fact that we were not taking it personal this part of our life. So when we decided to get engaged and stuff, we're like, well, should we become monogamous now? Because we're like, but it's worked so well for us to keep up this structure. But it's become a weird thing because like pseudo, you know, because we're openly not monogamous.

Sometimes I get put in position to like the open relationship couple. But the fact of the matter is we both have very demanding careers. We have now two small kids. One of them just turned one years old by just the finiteness of time. We haven't met anybody. And even for me, like the, it's challenging. So I, but I, in my heart, I'm still a freak. So in my mind, like in this fantasy world, it's still possible that the, you know, Amazon delivery guy could come and I could feel something for him. And then I could say to Jared, like, I kind of want to go out with this guy. And then can you babysit the kids? Like, that's a fantasy. I just don't know when that

will become real. Interesting. I don't know if I can do that. I don't. But also, I guess I could. I don't know. I'm like, I don't think I'm a, I'm not really a person who's like, well, let me see your phone. But I think I would feel something if like my sex life wasn't great with my partner and they were having sex with somebody else. I feel like that would hurt my feelings. Yes, that's actually a rule in our relationship. And back when we were like definitely open, I remember that I went on a date with a guy for his birthday and we were just in a really bad place. We'd actually just moved to a different place together and moving with a partner, it's stressful, right?

So we were like going through a time of heavy conflict. And I remember I went out and when I came back, he's like, I'm going to be honest with you. I just, I don't think that we should do this when we're not in the best place possible. And that just became a fundamental rule for us that like this has to be a reflection of how much love and acceptance and joy that we have that we're spilling over in the rest of the world. Like, man, we feel so good with each other that when we go out, we're still buzzing from that and we're making other connections that we can bring back to the connection. So that became a rule for us where like if we're going through a funky period, like it's time to keep our energy and our focus here together. That makes sense. Cause I feel like it's hard to like be with someone and then be with somebody else when you're not good with the one that you want to like be with, be with. So is your relationship, um, is it called, what is it called? It's like a hierarchy

open relationship where Jared is number one and everyone else is secondary. Or is it called what is it called it's like a hierarchy open relationship where Jared is number one and everyone else is secondary or is it what is it where it's like even I don't know

I'm going to say really like I don't know because it's just not been done in practice like actually today my husband's brother works for us and so he was talking

to me about nannies and he was like oh would you like let a really hot nanny you know like a really really hot like a bad nanny like nannies and he was like, oh, would you like let a really hot nanny, you know, like a really, really hot, like a bad nanny, like would you hire her? I was like, I want to think that I wouldn't make the decision off of that. My oldest daughter is like really doesn't, she loves people, but she doesn't really fuck with people for a long period of time. So I'm like, if anybody really, really got along with her, would I be like, that girl's too hot.

But so like I said, like there's a lot of things I could say in practice and I don't want to be that person who's like that sex expert or relationship expert. It's like, everything's fine. I don't feel jealousy. Nothing is, everything is perfect. And, but so yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Cause we've never really had that before. I want to believe that I would be okay with a dynamic where I wasn't number one. I don't know. I want to feel that, that I would be, but maybe not. So. Well, that's a nice, honest answer because I guess it's hard to like, actually answer like theoretical, like you don't know until it like fucking happens. And then you're like, right. This is how I feel in this moment. Well, this is not actually cool with me.

And like all the training and education and, you know, compersion is a word that means joy for other people. And I like to think that I experienced compersion, but I experienced compersion if my partner goes to a strip club. You know what I mean? Like that's a level of compersion I know I can handle where I'm like, oh, I'm just happy he's having a great time with his friends. What if it was like, now the strippers, my kids are calling her mom. Like, you know what I mean? Like there's scenarios that I probably can conjure up where I'm like, I don't feel as Zen about that. And I want to give myself space for that reality. Do you think people who aren't sexually compatible are not compatible for like a relationship? What is in your top three? One of my favorite books is called The Science of Happily Ever

After. It's a book that changed my life. And I will say that before I met my husband, I went on a severe deep dive into literature about how to love and be loved. And I will say that I always did my work from a place of selfishness. I started doing sex ed because I had a fucked up sex life. And I'm like, this can't be right. And when I turned 30 years old, I had such a negative experience. I had an awful relationship in my twenties and just tons of not feeling respected, not feeling loved, not feeling cool. Like I was dating a lot of guys. I just felt like a loser

around them. And I would do this like thing where I'd be very, very anxious and clingy and then super avoidant. So when I turned 30, I was like, okay, I got out of that relationship. And I'm like, I got to figure this thing out. Like I'm orgasming. I get my body, but like this relationship thing is just not clicking for me. So I started reading a bunch of books, just like, how do I date? How do I seduce? How do I be flirtatious? How do I get along with people? Like these are basic things that I just didn't really know how to do. And so a book that I read was called The Signs of Happily Ever After. And that was like, hey man, just pick three things. Like don't come, don't come up with your list of 40. Like scientifically, you're going to get three wishes when it comes to a partner. And even that's

probably a tall tale. And so if in your top three is to have somebody who you're sexually compatible with, then no, it's not going to work. Sort of similarly, if in your top three of mating with somebody is to be financially taken care of, yeah, you probably shouldn't date the Amazon prime guy. But if it's like not in your top three, you can work with it. Like the Amazon prime guy, he's not going to be a millionaire tomorrow who can take care of you, but maybe he's got a plan and a business plan. And in 10 years, it's possible that that could be your reality. If you've got that kind of stamina in you, because it's not in your top three list, then by all means.

But if you don't have that stamina because you know you need good dick every single day in order to feel normal, I'd ask yourself some different questions if that's your answer. But nonetheless, like, yeah, then definitely prioritize sexual compatibility. Okay.

I'm glad you cleared up that the Amazon Prime man might have a plan to make more money because I was like, don't shit on the Amazon Prime man. He works so hard. He does. person, like I say, if you're the kind of person who wants, like that's the reason why partnership matters to you, that you're financially focused. Like you really want a partner who can look after you so that you can stay at home with the kids or what have you. Yeah. The Amazon prime guy is just really not going to make sense for your life plan. But if you enjoy working too, you could have a great life and he could never leave that job and you could be completely happy. Mm-hmm. I am an anxious, uh, what is, I have an anxious attachment style.

How does one not be like that? There's a book that's called The Power of Attachments that actually encourages people to not ask that question. Like don't ask yourself how you can be different. Just meet yourself where you're at and work within dynamics that can bring out the best in you. The best anxious version of you, because maybe that's just like you're forever. That's not a bad thing, right? There's something really beautiful about anxious partners, right? Those

are people who just really believe that love can cure all, love can fix all. They're people who really are going to be ride or dies for you. They're people who think about you and think about you in times where you may forget to think about yourself. There's gifts to being that level of lover. It's a lot for you, I'm sure, because it can put you in a state of fight or flight around a space in your life that's supposed to be about calm and connect. So if you want to heal it for yourself because you don't like the feeling of it, I think of myself as somebody who's both avoidant and anxious at different times. And I come from a mom who's super anxious. My mom constantly needs to this day validation that like, do you like me? Do you love me? Am I good enough? And that was exhausting. But I also had a dad,

which as you probably know, if you've studied attachment theory, anxious and avoidant people work really well together because they affirm their natural beliefs. My dad was super avoiding. So I realized when I got older, I thought of myself as secure. And I was like, you're not secure. You just think that like one minus one is equaling zero. No, you're one and you're a minus one. Like you're both these polar crazies. And I think within my dynamic, we just know that about me. So you can find a dynamic that knows that about you and tries to work with you and also see some of the benefits of that. Or if you really, you know, want to change it and become secure, there's huge benefits to that. People who are secure have an

easier time finding partnerships and staying in partnerships. And there's lots of stats to back that up. There are probably books that can help you heal. I just don't know any offhand. Okay. Real quick, we have to take another break. And we're back. Okay. When did you decide to marry your fuck buddy? When, like, when did it happen? Did you propose?

Did he propose? Who proposed? Okay, I'm going to tell the story very authentically. I'm going to tell you the moment that I knew that I was going to marry this man. We were driving in Hollywood and we were making a right. And I can't remember what I said or what he said to me, but I had this thought in my head that I was like, holy shit, this is the first relationship in my entire life that I have felt good enough for. And not like good enough for, like I qualified for him, just like I qualified as being a good person. I just realized that every other relationship I was constantly trying to

audition. And that comes from my parenting too, that like, I'm not a bad person. I'm not a mean person. I'm not out to get somebody. I have good intentions. Like this man just genuinely took everything under the guise that like, she's good. So she doesn't want to do harm. She doesn't want to hurt. She doesn't want to trick or deceive. And so that feeling of just like, wow, like I am with somebody who genuinely accepts me as a good person and sees the best in me and works their ass off to do that. Even if I'm doing some fucked up shit in the moment. That I was like, I want this for the rest of my life. After I had that feeling, I am also six and a half years older than my husband.

So by the time I met him, another reason why I was like, this guy's not my husband. This is my little boy toy, right? He was working at the YMCA when I met him. I was like, I made $12,000 a year that I met him. I could not afford to marry this man. Like what? We cannot do this together. We're not compatible, but damn it. The sexual chemistry was great. But I will say that, um, so yeah, I knew at age 32, so he was 25 or something. Um, and I remember one time he broke my coffee table because he was trying to kill a bee. And he was like, so sorry. He's like, I broke your table. I'm so sorry. I

feel so awful. And I was like, when are you going to just marry me? So what's mine is yours. And what's yours is mine. We don't have to worry about this. Like, it's not going to be a, I broke your table thing. It's our table. We'll figure it out and fix it. And he was like, looked at me like, bitch, what? Like marriage? I'm 25 years old. And that was like a reality check for me was like, looked at me like, bitch, what? Like marriage, I'm 25 years old. And that was like a reality check for me of like, man, I wasn't thinking about marriage at 25, but guess what? I also wasn't dating a 32 year old.

So I had to start having honest conversations with him. And yeah, I definitely pressured my husband to propose to me 1000%. And my favorite analogy that I gave to him that I really think helped things click for him because especially I was like a sex expert at the time. And I actually went on the Steve Harvey show and I was talking about my relationship,

which was amazing. From day one, I've never broken up with my husband, period. From Fuck Buddies to now, we've never even had a date. Like we just vibe, we get along. So I have a great relationship that I'm really proud of. But because it didn't have the marriage title, people were always scrutinizing it, especially because it was open.

So I went on the Steve Harvey show and I was talking about something unrelated. Then he started bringing up my personal life. And then he was digging at me. He's like, this man doesn't love you. If he did, he would never allow this. This man couldn't love you. If you did, you wouldn't be sitting here with no ring.

This man doesn't love you. And I was just like, goddamn, it is really exhausting to have to constantly qualify this thing that I'm really proud of for people because it doesn't look how they think it should. So I said to my husband, I was like, imagine this, like as a man, you've been told that when you reach a certain level of financial success, which is important to you, right? Like you grew up thinking that this is a part of your role. Women grow up fantasizing about their relationship and marriage and Disney, all that shit. This is socialized into us. To your point about gender as a construct, these are things that are baked into us. It's not even natural. But as a man, you're just told that this is important for you.

And then you're told when you get to a certain level of financial success, there will be a car that you can buy. And you're going to pull up and people are going to know this man did it. He accomplished the thing that every other little boy or every other man is trying to do. He's financially stable. He is successful. He's on the top of the man food chain. For women, that's fucking marriage. And it's disgusting, but that is the truth. So I've gotten to a place in my career where I can afford any car that I want. I did the thing, right? I did the thing that we're supposed to do. I found my partner. We built a great relationship. We're extremely successful. But I'm still pulling up to places in a Prius, right? Or in a Honda Civic.

And so people are looking at me like, well, you're not successful. You're driving a Civic. I'm like, no, I could afford the, I don't even know cars, Lamborghini. What's the expensive one? I could afford that car. A Lamborghini, a Ferrari.

I could. I got a McLaren relationship at home, but it just is in this Prius. So I was like, why are you making me drive around this Prius? Like, please. And that was the conversation that I had that he's like, okay, I get where this is coming from. And that was also a big thing too. I had a major aha afterwards that for women, there's pressure to get married. And then once you get the ring, the social pressure is alleviated. Okay, cool.

Like you did the thing. But for men, the social pressure begins when they put a ring on someone because now they have to provide for that person. They have to be the man who provides for the family. So they are confronted with all of these ideas of like, am I a man? Like, am I ready for that responsibility? Whereas for women, again, like the stress is alleviated at that moment. So there was just like a mismatch of, I think, cultural expectations and messaging that just brought us to this crossroad. And of course the age gap was a big part. So yeah,

I had to pressure that man. What advice would you give single people? I think I'd go back to the top and just really keep it simple. One, really have an honest conversation with yourself. And this is a gift of the time that we live in right now. How much of a priority is this of yours? Not of your mom's, not of your grandma's, not of your best friend or anybody. Like if you really think about right now, what brings you happiness and peace and fulfillment, like kind of what Glow said, like what's my next great adventure this year? Don't even have to think about 10 years from now. This year was my next great adventure. If your biggest adventure right now is to finally get over your trauma that was put on you from childhood and that's your focus, maybe you don't have to think about this part so aggressively

right now. If your next big thing is to put out a book this year, like let that be what your focal point is and make the decisions in your life, you know, where you move, who you're around and what your purpose and what you focus on based on that priority. However, if your genuine priority is like, I want love to be my next great adventure. Like I genuinely want this to be true.

Then I would start to think about those other three big decisions and how I can reprioritize them so I can actually focus everything on this. Can I move to a country that's not probably my ideal market and take some kind of a career hit or perception of a hit in order to be around places and people that actually fuck with me? Can I even, from a job standpoint, I read this book, it's called The Sensual Woman. And this woman was working in theater and she was like, I don't really like artsy men though.

She's like, I like more serious men. I'm an artsy person, but I can do art as a hobby. So she went and got a job at an engineering firm because she wanted to meet men like that. And she met an engineer and they got married. And then she's like, now I do theater on the weekends. So like, that's even the extreme decisions making that you can make it. This is actually your priority. So if it matters to you that much, like you're going to have to do the hard work on the backend so that this part of your life can be easier. But honestly, just like,

there's so many great ways to live a fulfilled life. There's so many great ways to have dream come true. This is just one of those ways. And it may not be your way right now. And that's cool too. Okay. I feel like your advice is move or change careers. Yes. Or just be fine with the fact that like, yeah, it's going to be really hard based on my priorities, like where I live and what I do for a living and what the natural culture is. And also my inability to like go and shake hands with every person and talk to every person to see if they're my possible fit. Like when you put all those things combined, if you look at math, I mean, relationships through math, a book I really like too is called

Datanomics, where it's a number cruncher who basically said, if you live in this city and this is how you look and this is what you do, you probably have like, you're competing with five other women who are just like you for that one man. And if you like those odds, then stay in that city. And if you don't, you should probably move to a city where your odds are a little bit better. You can look at dating like that too. What's the name of that book? It's called Date Anomics. I'm going to get it. Good. Because I want to know what my... I mean, I don't think my odds are very good here in LA, but also, I don't know.

Stranger things have happened. Yes. I mean, at the end of the day, you have a once-in-a-lifetime career. You've already proven to yourself that you can beat the odds. You've already proven to yourself that if you put the work and the time in, you can be a path paver and you can be a rule breaker. You just have to ask yourself, do I have the stamina to do that again somewhere else? And that's a question I had to ask myself too, where I was like, do I have the stamina? A lot of the things for me, especially as a path paver, my career didn't exist when I started it. It was like an idea that I had.

My career didn't exist when I started it. It was like an idea that I had. And the things that I needed to succeed, I had to be disagreeable. I had to be. I had to like say like, fuck you to my parents and fuck you society. And I had to be like that.

And that was not working for me in dating. So it was like, okay, there's all of these fundamental skills that I've learned that made me really successful in one area. They're definitely not crossing over to the other. Do I want to put the energy and time that I put in to make this thing work, which was a hell of a lot of work, into this space?

And my answer was yes. I also am uniquely incentivized to put in the work because I found a way to get paid from it, right? Like, so I, it's a beautiful part of what I do for a living. What I learn in my professional life directly helps and applies to my personal life. What I learn in my professional life directly helps and applies to my personal life. So I get paid to do that work, which is great. But I made that reality

a reality. Well, we have come to the end. Is there anything that you want to promote? Yes, Nicole. It is called The Marriage Pact. I love this show so much because I want to tell love stories that are common, but not commonly spoken about. And 38% of relationships start off platonically or similar to in my relationship where you're not looking at that person like you're forever. Maybe they're not your one. They might be your two, three, four, or five. And so putting your backup plan to the test is incredibly relatable, and it's just not shown enough. Every other dating and romance show

is about the big bang, right? The I saw you, you saw me, we're complete strangers. You know nothing about each other. But what happens when people who have like real history and real lives at stake and a real relationship, some people on the show knew each other for 20 years. And that's who came to Cartagena, Colombia to be like, we're going to go all in to see if we actually have something between us that's worth calling marriage. So it was such a phenomenal experience

for me to be a part of. I learned so much and it was juicy as hell. And I'm also accustomed to working on shows where the stakes aren't really that high. Because, I mean, if we're honest, people are most likely looking for a social media following, not a soulmate. But because these people actually had friendships to protect, they were so just genuine and careful in a way that I just deeply admired. And I would love for people to witness that work. It's on the Roku channel. You can get the app for free. You can watch all eight episodes. They're out right now. You can binge the show. Or if you're on a browser, you can go to the Roku channel dot com, sign up for a free account. And

again, you can watch all those episodes for free. I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here and doing this. And if you like this episode of Why Won't You Date Me, you can like it, you can rate it, you can subscribe, you can write me something nasty hitting on me to whywontyoudatemepodcast at gmail.com.

Mars has to, my producer, my lovely producer, who I love, has to go through them, so no dick pics. This one person said, one magical evening,

dear Nicole, I want to take you out for some craft cocktails and some dick. I'll take you out for some craft cocktails and some dick. I'll take you out to my favorite craft cocktail bar on La Cienega where we'll have a few drinks, a few laughs, and have a great time and we'll look deep in each other's eyes and quickly go back to your place for some steamy sex,

the kind where your pussy gets ate, my dick gets slurped, and we have a magic evening together and I kiss your forehead and we fall asleep cuddling. In the morning, I'll roll over and say, wow, Nicole, thanks for making my first time with a woman so special. I think I'm still gay, though. Can you drive me home?

That was fun. Thank you so much. Okay, bye-bye. Why Won't You Date Me with Nicole Byer is produced by me, Mars. It's executive produced by Adam Sachs, Nick Liao, and Jeff Ross at Team Coco, with talent bookings by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Maddie Ogden. Got a question, crazy dating story, or a dirty message for Nicole?

Write it to whywontyoudatemepodcast at gmail.com for a chance to have it featured on a future show. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week with a brand new episode. Bye-bye. This has been a Team Coco production.