Wilder - 7. The Problem of Laura

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

What is our responsibility to the things we loved the most? One answer is to be brutally honest about who and what we love. That’s what we’re doing in this episode. We’re going to take a long, hard look at the worst parts of Laura: the racism, the violence, and xenophobia present in the Little House series. There’s more than you might think. Even Glynnis, a person who thought she knew Laura all the way through, was surprised and sometimes shocked. We also talk about the harm the books have caused and investigate whether the Little House books should still have a place in our classrooms or even on our shelves.  Go deeper: On Native American HistoryMni Sota Makoce: Land of the Dakota by Gwen Westerman and Bruce WhiteMean Spirit by Linda HoganMore on government operated boarding schools for Native children On Native representation and racism in the Little House books Little squatters on the Osage Diminished Reserve by Frances W. Kaye Lizzie Skurnick on Little House’s “Myth of White Self-Sufficiency” On Black prairie narrativesMore on Doctor George A. TannEra Bell Thompson: A North Dakota Daughter Alternate children’s book recommendations: Prairie Lotus by Linda Sue ParkBirchbark House by Louise ErdrichForever Cousins by Laurel GoodluckMore recommendations from Dr. Debbie ReeseSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sonora and IHART's My Cultura Podcast Network present Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Did you miss me? The new season of lies, scandals and skeletons in the closet. I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season, it's all out in the open. Listen to Princess of South Beach on the IHART Radio app, a few podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. to open. What's up?

This is Chris Rudiger. I'm the owner and co-founder of the 615 House and you're listening to my new podcast, the 615 House podcast. It's a chance to take a deep dive with some of Nashville's hottest artists as we learn their stories and I try to keep the questions pretty spicy as these artists sit in the hot seat. Hang out with us as we talk to some of your favorite artists here on the 615 House podcast.

Listen to the 615 House podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Jarin. On my new podcast, thinking Out Loud with Elvis Jaran. I'll be bringing you candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy interviews with people from all walks of life. We'll touch on subjects that you just can't talk about on the radio, like life, love, success, failure, whatever else comes to mind. But I'll jacked up because after being in this business for as long as I have, I want to get to the bottom of what makes people tick. And listen to my new podcast, Faking Out Loud on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This episode contains racist depictions and racial slurs from the Little House books. Listeners please be advised. The name of one of the nation's best known children's authors is being removed from a major literary award. In June 2018, the Children's Division of the American Library Association, the group that gives out coveted children's book awards like the Newberry Medal and the Caldacot Medal, announced that after much consideration, they were renaming their prestigious Laura Ingalls Wilder Award. The Association for Library Service to Children unanimously voted this weekend

to rename the Laura Ingalls Wilder Award, the Children's Literature Legacy Award due to negative depictions of Native Americans and African Americans and Wilder's books. It would now be called the Children's Literature Legacy Award. Here was their reasoning. Although Wilders were called a significant place in the history of children's literature, and continues to be read today, ALSC has had to grapple with the inconsistency between Wilders Legacy and its core values of inclusiveness, integrity, and respect. You will probably not be shocked to hear that people were upset

and angry, outraged even. It demonstrated the reach of Laura in Little House. It wasn't just regular fans who were upset. People like William Schatner, aka Captain Kirk, were very, very angry and took to Twitter to express that anger. I find it disturbing that some take modern opinion and obliterate the past isn't progress learning from our mistakes. Like a lot of young readers, I loved Laura.

Obviously, if you've made it this far and wilder, you know this. And growing up, nothing that is in the books bothered me. Nothing stood out as a problem. But Laura is a problem. You know, you push together this coziness with the decimation of native tribes or with, you know, the erasure and bigotry about black people, and even the marrying off of girls who are very young, and you just have this confusing diet. But of course, that's America. And the problems of Laura are also disturbingly relevant.

I think it's important for us to remember that our past isn't always rosy, that there were controversies. There was a race that's, and racism is still part of our culture now. If we pretend the past was not as controversial and difficult and racist as it was, then how are we going to deal with the racist issues we're grappling with today? When we first envisioned this podcast, this was the question I was asking myself. How should I feel about Laura Ingalls' wilder? I'm obviously not a kid anymore. I'm a grown-up educated woman.

I recognize all the problems with the books. So what should I be doing with my love of Laura now? This question is really just a niche version of what the country has been asking itself, about itself for a while now. What some citizens have been pointing out for centuries. And it's a question that finally went mainstream after 2016. We've all been asked to consider what we love and how we love it. And often, whether we should be letting it go, from historical statues to entire systems of

government to deeply beloved children's books. Letting go of Laura is an impossibility for me. She was woven in too deeply, too early. So it seemed to me the next question to ask was, what is the responsibility that comes with this kind of love? In this episode, we're going to take a deep look at the hardest parts of Laura Ingalls' wilder. There are a lot of hard parts. More than you might think. Even I, a person who thought they knew Laura all the way through was surprised and sometimes shocked. I'm Glinnis McNickel and this is Wilder. In 1952, nearly 20 years after the first little housebook was published, legendary children's book editor Ursula Nordstrom received a letter from the parent of a young

little house reader. Laura was in her 80s by now, and all her fan mail, and there was a lot, went through Nordstrom's office. The parent had written to Laura to say that their child had been upset by a line on page two of the little house on the Perry Book. The line was describing the territory that Ingles were relocating to, and it read, there were no people, only Indians lived there.

Here's how Nordstrom responded. We were indeed disturbed by your letter. We knew that Mrs. Wilder had not meant to imply that Indians were not people. I must admit that no one here realized the words read as they did. Reading them now, it seems unbelievable to me that you are the only person who has picked them up and written to us about them in the 20 years since the book was published. Nordstrom then relayed that when Laura had been alerted to the line, she'd called it a, quote, stupid blunder.

Of course, Indians are people. I did not intend to imply they were not. Nordstrom went on to assure the reader the line would be changed for all future editions. If you buy the book today, the line now reads, there were no settlers, only Indians lived there. It's late September and our producer Emily and I are driving to the Little House from the Prairie Museum outside Independence, Kansas. We are a three-hour drive from Kansas City and another three hours from Oklahoma City. We are really for real in the middle of the country.

Kansas, baby. Like there's something about Wyoming that feels wild in west, but this just feels very, I don't know, middle of nowhere. In the opening chapter of Little House on the Prairie, when the Ingalls set out from Peppin was constant, Pa asked Laura, quote, do you like going out where the Indians live? Laura said she liked it, and then asked if they were an Indian country now, but they were not. It was a long, long-awaited Indian territory. The Little House Emily and I are driving toward is the one pot illegally built when the Ingles arrived at their destination, the Osage diminished reserve, what is now southeastern Kansas. The site of this museum is the presumed location of the little house

in the book little house on the prairie. And it's not easy to find. It's down a whole bunch of side roads and even google map struggles to point the location. We arrived shortly before closing hours. Wow, after hours of mission. But just as we're about to wander the site, a woman named Rhonda appears. I just wanted to let you know I closed up everything at five but you can walk the grounds as long as possible.

Oh, well thank you. We're going to come in before that. Rhonda is the person in charge of the museum today and she is dressed in full prairie garb, complete with bonnet. On the museum grounds is a recreation of the little log cabin that Pa built for his family. And they believe the well outback is the actual one-lure rights about Pa building in the book. So this far he has was here around 1880 and the most left around 1871. Based on the 1870 census and the well and back, they're pretty sure that this is the area

where the Ingles were illegally squatting in Indian territory for about a year and a half. Uh-huh. Emily and I had wondered on the way here how the museum would describe the Ingles time on the Osage diminished reserve. I asked Rhonda if squatting was the word she used with visitors. It is not a word used in the book. They were squatting. There's no insats or bets about it. They didn't pay for the book. They were squatting. There's no insats or bets about it.

They didn't pay for the land. They were here illegally, so you can't take away something that happened. Let's talk about what actually happens in this book. Little House on the Prairie is by far the most controversial book in the Little House series. This is the book that adults are shocked by when they return to it to read to their own children.

It's the book that often requires them to either skip entire passages or stop and do a lot of explaining. Here's writer Rebecca Traster. I would say, you know, at the first mention of Indians or whatever, I would say, okay, so let me explain what's going on here. The house that they are moved to or their building is actually on land that belongs to people who've been there forever and it's being stolen by Laura and Mary and Mon Pah, right? Like I would sort of, I would just the most rudimentary sort of version of, they are building a house on land that belongs to other people.

And this is something that happened and it's part of how this country was built. The closest the book gets to implying that the Ingalls are building on land that doesn't belong to them is that they are in a place called Indian Territory. But there are plenty of other parts in the book that are not subtle at all. They are unequivocally racist.

The most violent line from the book comes from the Ingles neighbors, the Scots, who say more than once, quote, the only good Indian is a dead Indian. End quote. Laura also tells us quote, Jack hated Indians, and Ma said she didn't blame him. End quote. and Ma said she didn't blame him." In the book, Laura describes Native Americans entering the Ingalls illegally constructed house. The first time it happens, Ma is home alone, and the Native Americans eat all the food she is cooking. Quote,

The naked wild men stood by the fireplace. Their faces were bold, fierce and terrible. These wild men had no hair. Another time, two Native Americans come into the house who are, quote, dirty, scowling, and mean. They take all the cornbread, all the fur, all paws tobacco, but then drop the fur on the way out. At the end of the chapter, Laura asks Pa, quote,

will the government make these Indians go west? Pa tells her yes, quote, when white settlers come into a country, the Indians have to move on. The government is going to move these Indians farther west anytime now. That's why we're here, Laura. government is going to move these Indians farther west anytime now. That's why we're here, Laura.

White people are going to settle all this country, and we get the best land because we get here first and take our pick. Laura does not leave a lot of room for interpretation when it comes to the opinions that the people around her express, but she doesn't pass judgment on them either. A lot of people, even those who are not Laura apologists, will tell you that in Little House on the Prairie, Laura was merely relaying what she heard others say. Their childhood memories and the child's interpretation

of the situation, not necessarily filtered through an adult lens, that kind of memoir approach. This is how I remember it. This is how I saw it at this time. And I know my childhood memories are not always accurate. Gwan Westerman is a professor at Minnesota State University, Mankato, and the director of the Native American Literature Symposium. Trying to view her stories through her childhood memories is a much different experience as a reader than coming in and saying, here are all the terrible things that are said about Indians. And from what I found, none of those things are Laura's thoughts. Those are the words that she remembers hearing. Adult Laura, the writer, does, through her fictional child self, provide some necessary pushback to these views. Early on in the book, not long after the Ingles arrive in what they call Indian Territory,

Laura asks her mother, quote, Why don't you like Indian's maw? To which maw replies, quote, I just don't like them and don't lick your fingers. But Laura persists. This is Indian country, isn't it, she says? What did we come to their country for if you don't like them? Ma tells her she's not sure where they are exactly, but that Pa has been assured the

territory will be open to settlements soon. This is the extent of the questioning that happens. The defense that Laura is offering a child's view of this experience is valid. And that Ma personally is terrified, is understandable. She's alone, miles from other settlers, with three young girls and a husband who, while charming, behaves erratically. who, while charming, behaves erratically. We talked in the last episode how the Ingles time squatting on the Osage Dominic Reserve happened in the aftermath of the U.S. Dakota War of 1862, and how the narratives that came

out of that war about, quote, led thirsty Indians, and vulnerable heroic pioneers dominated the press and have shaped our understanding of that history ever since. Absent from that narrative and the books is any understanding that one of the reasons Native Americans might have been in the house was that they were starving and that the treaties that promised to feed them had been betrayed. and that the treaties that promised to feed them have been betrayed. Settlers were illegally on their land, and they often viewed food as rent. That's likely the reason they came into the Ingles home to begin with. One of the more complicated things Laura the writer pulls off, time and again in the Little House series,

is letting us know Ma's views are wrong, but also that Laura loves her, which is a definition of family I certainly related to, even as a young child. But Laura was also writing the books in the 1930s, and while she seems able to insert some awareness of conflicting views around the Ingles presence on Native American land, this awareness is limited.

I wouldn't exaggerate how much she may have known about the history. Laura's biographer Caroline Fraser thinks there were limits to Laura's knowledge. She tried to find out the name of the chief who her father may have encountered, but she didn't do very much in the way of reading history that we know of. And so I don't really know how much she knew. She did know that the land that her father had built on did not belong to him.

She knew that. She knew he was a squatter. But I don't know that she had any kind of modern conceptions about the fairness or the ways in which her family was illegally appropriating things that didn't belong to them. That conception of fairness is, I think, at the heart of what's most troubling in this book. Laura seems unable or unwilling to fully understand Native Americans as human beings. I want to turn to a specific scene in the final chapters of Little House on the Prairie.

If you're familiar with the books, you've probably been wondering why we haven't mentioned it yet. It's so strange and disturbing. When the Ingles first set out for what they call Indian territory, Paw promises Laura that when they quote, came to the west, Laura would see a papuce, which Paw tells her is a quote, little brown Indian baby.

Near the end of the book, in a chapter titled, Indians Ride Away, the Osage tribe, who have been conducting what Pa understands to be war chance in the river valley every night for a week, leave. The Ingles stand in front of their home as the Osage file by the house on their horses. Laura has a quote, notty-wish to be a little Indian girl. Of course, she did not really mean it, she only wanted to be naked in the wind and the sunshine and riding one of those gay little ponies. End quote. Then Laura spots a Native American baby with hair quote, as black as a crow.

Those quote, black eyes looked deep into Laura's eyes and she looked deep down into the blackness of that little baby's eyes and she wanted that one little baby. End quote. Laura says to Pa, quote, Pa, get me that one little baby." Laura says to Pa, quote,

Pa, get me that little Indian baby. I want it. I want it, she begged." End quote. Pa, to his credit, or to Laura's decades later, tells Laura, quote, sternly, to hush. It's one of the few moments in the series, Pa gets stern with Laura.

Caroline Fraser believes this scene is a direct memory of Laura's, who, as we talked about in an earlier episode, would have been just three years old at this time. When I said earlier that nothing had stood out to me as strange in the Little House books, this scene is the exception. Even as a child, I found Laura's desire to acquire a Native American infant absolutely bizarre. I wasn't the only one. It stuck out to journalist Moreno Conner

who also loved the books growing up. In that moment also, it's like kind of horrifying because she wants this like, just like, Pog will get me that. It's my toy. I want it more than, you know, and she didn't even beg for dolls that hard. But then she also, in that same passage, I believe the scribes have, she also like wishes that she was one of those children or she wants to own and that sort of bizarre the way

that she sort of processes those feelings is layered maybe I don't know at horrifying. It was emblazoned on my childhood brain also and what I clearly remember thinking is that I desperately wanted to know what the Native American baby was seeing. I wanted to know what the infant traveling with their mother alongside a pony into the unknown saw when they looked at Laura. But we are never given that. There is no mention of where the Osage tribe is going, or any sense of what the future might

hold for the Native American children. Laura is so mesmerized by in this scene, including the violence of the government-funded residential school systems. We've included links with more information on these histories and our show notes, and we encourage you to learn more about these stories. We do know that while Laura did some research, she didn't seem too interested in finding out that much more. Here's Lizzie Skarnak, writer and professor of children's literature at NYU. What we do know is that she, personally, as a human,

was not very interested in getting the larger story, and never went beyond the context she was personally taught. We should just not true of everybody that's her age. Not once, Does Laura ever attempt to imagine someone else's impression of her. Never once does she wonder how she might appear. And by extension, offer the same fullness of experience to anyone else that she gives to her own family. Books like Little House on the Prairie that have these like naked Indians who can't speak

English, then we come to think of native peoples as savage primitive people. We were miseducated. That's not the truth. Here's Dr. Debbie Reese. Dr. Reese runs a website called American Indians in Children's Literature. We looked different. We lived different, but we're not less human. We had and have societies.

And ordered societies have leaders. And that's what we need to know about who we were before Europeans came to our homelands. Any awareness of that complexity or history is completely absent from the Little House books. As I said, Little House on the Prairie of the Book didn't shock me when I went back to reread it for this podcast. I knew what was there.

I was familiar with the arguments for and against it. What did surprise me was the extent to which the problems of Laura are not limited to just this one book. We're going to get to that after the break. Sonoro and I, Hartz, my Gultura podcast network, present, Bringsis of South Beach, Season 2. Gas crews back. Did you miss me? The Calderons are back with a new season of lies, scandals,

and skeletons in the closet. And speaking of closets. I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season, it's all out in the open. What color are your pants? Okay, maybe not everything. These people look like they're mixed up in some really dangerous stuff. Andrew Stoff, starring ex-Mayo, Danny Pino, Andy Bustillos, Raúl Sparsson, Gina Torres, Alan Eisenberg, and more.

Keep up with the most notorious family in Miami, unravel the mystery with this new season of Princess of South Beach. Listen to Princess of South Beach as part of the Mycultura Podcast Network, available on the IHR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This is Chris Rudiger. I am the owner and co-founder of the 615 House and you're listening to my new podcasts, the 615 House podcast, right here on IHR.

As an artist and entrepreneur myself, I feel incredibly lucky that I get to live in a city where there's so much creativity and artistry, and this podcast talks about it. It's a chance to take a deep dive with some of Nashville's hottest artists as we learn their stories and ask them questions about creativity, social media, and just how to balance life in an ever-changing industry. We talk about virality and how building a sustainable career

is not as easy as it looks. My favorite part is that we get to learn the secrets and stories that you don't always hear on camera and I try to keep the questions pretty spicy as these artists sit in the hot seat. Come on in, hang out with us as we talk to some of your favorite artists here on the 615 House podcast. Listen to the 615 House podcast on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get podcasts. Appl Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts.

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Cassie, we have the wings. This is native land. You don't have the authority. None of you are making decisions to keep the rest of us safe. Which leaves me. I'm asking for your forgiveness. This is to keep the rest of us safe, which leaves me. I'm asking for your forgiveness. Aftershock, season two, starring Sarah Wayne Callies, David Harbour, and Jeffrey Dean Morgan, listen to Aftershock on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's stick with the book Little House on the Prairie for just a little while longer. In addition to the ways Native Americans were depicted, there's also the issue of who was left out almost entirely. This is our dedication to Dr. King. Oh, this is Dr. King. On the census in there. He's right above the Ingles, so that's really cool. He has buried in independence in the white cemetery, which was a big deal back then.

That's Rhonda again from the Little House Museum outside of Independence, Kansas. And she's showing us a display at the museum about a man called Dr. Tan. Three quarters of the way through the book, the Ingles family comes down with malaria, then called AGU. In the midst of their illness, a black doctor arrives. Quote, Laura could not take her eyes off

Doctan. He was so very black. She would have been afraid of him if she hadn't liked him so much. Doctan had a quote, rolling Jolly laugh, and were told the Ingles all wanted him to stay longer. Laura is very clear that Doctan saves their lives. We're also told he's a quote, doctor with the Indians, but nothing else. In real life, Dr. George A. Tan was a well-known doctor on the prairie.

Of course, he's a real person, and by the way, what's fascinating is in the books, he just sort of appears for a second. This is Lizzie Skarnick again. He delivered Kerry. He was the person who delivered Kerry. He was their family doctor, and also he was an Oklahoma territory. I think he finally settled in Oklahoma territory territory and that's where his house was. But he was very successful.

He treated the Osage, he treated the white people, he treated anybody else. And he was beloved and very famous and ended his life very wealthy because he actually owned the land he was on. He owned the oil rights. In the book, Doc Tan appears as a side character, which at the time is likely how Laura experienced him.

She was a kid, but here's what really stands out to me in this chapter. At the very end of it, Laura steps out of the narrative and takes the time to explain to the reader that Aigu was later discovered to be malaria passed on by mosquitoes. But nothing extra about Doctane was included, even though as Lizzie points out, Doctane was very well known.

And it wouldn't actually have taken a lot of digging to find out and include a bit more information. My dad was Jewish, my mother was black, I had been exposed all my life to white people talking about black people. And to me, this was another way to see white people's views of people who were not white. So, even then, I was like, I remember being glad to see Doctane. I remember being glad to see a person in the books who was a good person and a black person, but also when I learned more about him because my own mother's family are people from all black towns in Oklahoma territory from a town called Bowie. So when I learned more about that, I did feel like, and I didn't blame this on Lce Wilder or Rose Wilder Lane. It was just something where I was like, oh, God, we always get these small pieces of a story

as if everybody here is an exception. Where is there not, there's just a facet of what's an enormous world and it's just the part of the story that the white person chose to tell that was interesting to them. And then I always do wonder, you think back on it and I'm like, hmm, you know, just Laura remember who delivered baby Carrie, you know, did Rose Wilde or Elaine try to hide it? We don't know for certain what Rose or Laura decided to hide or why. But we do know there were plenty of black homesteaders on the prairie at the same time as the Ingles. Here's historian, Flannery Burke.

Black farmers were there, you know, for all the parts of the story, the hard winters, the family togetherness, the sleigh rides, the frustrated relationship with major corporations like the railroad, but they don't often enter common conversation. And black homesteaders had their own reasons for migrating West. Here's Lizzie Skurnik again. It was the same reason my great-great-parents went to. It was the same reason anyone went to the territories,

but I think black people also went because it was this idea of, well, there's not going to be slavery and we can sort of form our own communities here. We have a little more space and hopefully there's not so many white people that can round us up and kill us. Gets the more space from this issue at this juncture. You know, and also like, everyone's a pioneer. People in general like to be pioneers of all types.

It's just we only tell one pioneer story. Lauren Rose stuck to that one pioneer story throughout the entire Little House series. And as I said earlier, when I went back to reread the entire series, I realized there were a lot more problems. Some stand right out.

Like the chapter titled Indian Warning at the beginning of the Long Winter, when Pa encounters an elderly Native American man who predicts the coming winter. This scene is fictional, by the way, and likely inserted by Rose. There are plenty of other examples, more than we can possibly get to in this episode. But when I went back to reread the series, some really stood out, and I talked them through with Joe. So, Joe, you have finished reading Little House on the Prairie, the book, with Charlie. And I'm curious about if anything in there shocked you. And also, if anything in there shocked Charlie.

Yeah, Charlie's now almost six. And there are some things that definitely stand out to him. He knows things. He knows things that I didn't know as a kid and he points them out. The things that really stood out were Ma's intense reactions to the Native Americans, who they call Indians in the book. And he corrected the book. He said they should be called Native Americans. And I said, good job public school system of Philadelphia. But he said, he's like, I just don't understand why Ma hates them so much. And I asked him, I was like, well, do you think that she would be scared?

She was living alone, Pa left them on the prairie. And he said, yeah, he's like, I'd be scared. If any man walked into my house, she seems specifically scared of these Native Americans. And I thought that was interesting that he saw her whole reaction is so outsized. I love that Charlie spotted all that. It does speak well of the culture the kids are growing up in now because when I was a kid, none of this flagged to me.

Except that final scene which I thought was absolutely bizarre. I have to say when I read the rest of the books, because little house in the period of the book is the one that gets the most attention. It has the most over racism. And so when I went back to reread the rest of the books, that's where I was like, wait a second. We're gonna continue the series.

And so could you tell me some more red flags that I have yet to encounter? The phrase, you'll be as brown as an Indian, is repeatedly aimed at Laura when she's not wearing her bonnet, including it being the final thing her family says to her when she leaves home to marry Almanzo. And it's greeted as this phrase of affection

and things like the banks of Plum Creek, Laura writes that they're now safe from wolves in Indians. There's this sort of persistent blending of Native Americans and animals. As animals. As animals. Wild life. It happens more than once. It's not just that one phrase. There's also the phrase, I'm free white and American.

That repeatedly comes up. I mean, on the one hand, that's the truth, right? Like, there is a truth to that. But that truth is not what's being conveyed when that phrase is used in these books. That phrase is being used as like manifest destiny, I guess, a phrase of total entitlement. A phrase of entitlement instead of a checking of privilege? Exactly. There's no sort of, I'm free white and American, therefore I can do what I want. Unlike everyone else that currently is in this country,

it's really just like, it is a total entitlement. How dare you? I'm free white and American, so I deserve what I want. You can't touch me. And then this really stood out to me. I'd never noticed this before. At the beginning of the long winter, Laura wants to go help Pa in the field to harvest.

And we're told that Ma doesn't like to see women working in the field, quote, only foreigners did that. Ma and her girls were American above doing men's work. And that, when I read that, I had to read that a couple times. And part of the reason I think I never stood out to be before is because by that point in the series, we're so accustomed to dismissing Ma's racist views

as like, not as problematic, but as like annoying because they're just keeping Laura from doing what she wants. So it's never like, oh, this is a problem that Moss says this because it's racist. It was a problem that I was like, oh, there's Modj, she doesn't want Laura to have fun anymore. You know, and I, and going back to seeing that and just thinking like, oh, wow.

And then, of course, there's the entire chapter in Little Tan on the Prairie where there's a big black face scene. Right. That I have not gotten to that yet. And what I'm thinking as you're going through all of this is how do I talk to Charlie about these things and about these issues? Because I think it is could be used as a way to teach history. And to say, these are views that some people did have. This is what we believe now. And as a way to show him that sentiments evolve, right?

Yes. I mean, I can tell you, as a kid, I didn't know what blackface meant. And in the chapter, I remember it as Pa putting shoe polish on his face, and I just thought it was like a Halloween costume to disguise himself, and Ma's big concern is that he might have shaved his beard. Rose inserted this scene, this never happened. So Rose intentionally inserted a blackface scene

in Little Town on the Prairie that Laura was okay with. That's not actually a reflection of what actually happened. Although it is absolutely a reflection of the kind of entertainment that was happening both at that time and at the time the books were being written in the 30s. But all of this, of course, without any context for Glynis age eight is just a scene in which we get to see Pa having fun and Laura enjoying it in the town having a party. And when I went back and reread that chapter, it's breathtaking in the worst possible way. And a lot of discussions around the problems with the series, so much focus is on the one book. But it's the fabric.

It's endemic to the whole series. It's what you're saying. It's woven in in a way that I think reflects the degree to which it's woven in our storytelling. Like it's just sometimes when we talk about Laura, it's like she's's a problem, and in understanding the degree to which it is woven throughout the book, she's like, it's all a problem. This is not just a problem of Laura. Remember that parent who wrote to complain about the opening pages of Little House? Here's the part of editor Ursula Nordstrom's response that stood out the most to me. No one here realized the words read as they did.

It seems unbelievable to me that you are the only person who has picked them up and written to us about them in the 20 years since the book was published. In all those years, no one, including the people who had published the book, had spotted the problem. But perhaps it's not that surprising no one had noticed when you consider the problem is everywhere. You know, black-faced is entertainment, right? That was always the problem. That remains the problem. This is Lizzie Skarnak again. That was always the problem. That remains the problem. This is Lizzie Skarnak again. That people are like,

oh, she loves these Confederate statues. We grew up with them. It creates a psychological hurdle that many people cannot get over. Clearly. And I think Laura spanned that. It's like, wow, you know, there's that Indian baby. I wanted to steal. So great.

And then you have this generation of children who want a papu, think of native children as dolls and not a little child. You know, you push together this coziness with, you know, with the decimation of native tribes or with the erasure and bigotry about black people, and even the marrying off of girls who are very young and you just have this confusing diet. But of course, that's America. Besides the beautiful descriptions and feelings of coziness, there's something else going on in the books that discourages us from questioning any part of what we're reading, or someone

else. And that's Pa. We talked a lot in a previous episode about reconsidering Pa with grown-up eyes. One of those reconsiderations is understanding the role he plays as the quintessential white savior in Little House. Here's Rebecca Traster again. Pa is presented as the most humane in the family, and the person who is able to acknowledge even in very small ways the humanity of the people who he's

displacing. Lizzie Skarnak spotted it immediately. I was like, oh, this is another situation in which Pa as the white guy gets to decide which Indians are good Indians or bad Indians. Dr. Reese notes that the so-called good Indians are always the ones who help the white people. Pa has aligned where he says he tries to rationalize what a good or a bad Indian is. And the good Indian according to Pa is the one that rides in to stop the other Indians from attacking the little house on the prairie. So that's a good, according to Pa. So what are the ones that are in the river bottoms?

I guess they're bad Indians, and the only good Indian is the dead Indian, a plot is to those ones, but not to the one who saved them. This happens more than once. And by the shores of Silver Lake, as the Ingalls are crossing the desolate prairie, they are set upon by threatening figures, and then rescued by a man named Big Jerry. Quote, everything's alright now, Pa said, that's Big Jerry.

Who's Big Jerry Ma asked? He's a half breed, French and Indian Pa answered carelessly. A gambler, and some say a horse thief, but a darned good fellow. Big Jerry won't let anybody lay us. Yes, he's a half-breed. This is Lizzy Skarnak again. So as a half-breed, and what he is, is he's a half-breed who protects all the white people. And so his role is to protect Pa. Here's how big Jerry is described. He looks like an Indian. He was tall and big, but not one bit fat,

and his thin face was brown. His straight black hair swung against his flat, high-bone cheek as he rode for he wore no hat. As a kid, I was like, great. Big Jerry is here. Everything is going to be fine. Paul likes him. And therefore, I understand he's both safe and probably fun.

Of course, you love Big Jerry. He's like a hero, but he's also kind of bad. But what's also so clear about Big Jerry is that like, he exists in the white world, you know? And he's almost like Pa's representative in the camp, you know, Pa's not comfortable in like civilization, you know, he doesn't really like his job there.

So he sort of needs a heavy and that's Big Jerry. And his Snow White horse, Wno Saddle, nor bridal. The horse was free. He could go wherever he wanted to go. And he wanted to go with big Jerry wherever big Jerry wanted to ride. The horse and the man moved together as if they were one animal. As I said earlier, something else that stood out to me on this reread is that Laura and or Rose have a habit of aligning Native Americans with animals. I say, or Rose, because Big Jerry is a fictional creation.

And of course, Big Jerry, again, like totally made up story. I mean, I think the idea is that that person did exist. None of that ever happened or if it happened, it happened very differently. And I think that's what we keep coming back to. That with all this context, it's easier to see that it did happen very differently. For everyone, whether or not they are actually included in the books. But having that context, what do we do with it? How do we go forward with Little House and Laura knowing all this? After the break, we'll talk to Dr. Reese again about how she believes we should think about

and teach Little House. I think they are a good book to use in a college classroom that studies what we might call propaganda. Sonoro and I hearts my Cultura podcast network, present, Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Gas crews back. Did you miss me? The Caledons are back with a new season of lies, scandals, and skeletons in the closet. And speaking of closets.

I am proud to take office as your first openly gay major. This season, it's all out in the open. What color are your pants? Okay, maybe not everything. These people look like they're mixed up in some really dangerous stuff. Starring ex-mayo, Dani Pino, Andy Bustillos, Raúles Parasin, Ginadores, Alan Eisenberg, and more. Keep up with the most notorious family in Miami, unravel the mystery with this new season of Princess of South Beach. Listen to Princess of South Beach as part of the Mycurtura Podcast Network available on the IHR Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, this is Chris Rudiger. I am the owner and co-founder of the 615 House and you're listening to my new podcast, the 615 House podcast, right here on IHR. As an artist and entrepreneur myself, I feel incredibly lucky that I get to live in a city where there's so much creativity and artistry. And this podcast talks about it. It's a chance to take a deep dive with some of Nashville's hottest artists as we learn their stories and ask them questions about creativity, social media, and just how to balance life in an ever-changing industry. We talk about viability and how building a sustainable career is not as easy as it looks. My favorite part is that we get to learn the secrets and stories that you don't always hear on camera.

And I try to keep the questions pretty spicy as these artists sit in the hot seat. Come on in, hang out with us as we talk to some of your favorite artists here on the 615 House Podcasts. Listen to the 615 House Podcast on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts. Cassandra Wallace. From I Heart Podcasts and Nomadic Engine. You've escaped a serial killer, a season's interrogator, and the worst explosion in modern naval history.

Be acclaimed, dramatic thriller returns. What I need to know is who you're with. After shock, season two. It's like a ghost. Some people seem to be able to cheat death. We had an agreement to keep each other's secret. Cassie, we have the wings! This is native land.

You don't have the authority! None of you are making decisions to keep the rest of us safe, which leaves me! I'm asking for your forgiveness. Aftershock, season 2, starring Sarah Wayne Callies, David Harbor, and Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Listen to Aftershock on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So now that we've taken a long hard look at what's in the Little House books, it's time to start asking, how should we be interacting with them?

How should we think about them? Should they be in schools at all? And if so, how should these books be taught? Dr. Reese believes the book should be approached academically. I think they are a good book to use in a college classroom that studies what we might call propaganda or our critical media studies where you're looking very carefully at perspective, point-to-view, indoctrination. Let's talk about propaganda for a minute. Here's how the Miriam Webster dictionary defines the word propaganda.

The spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purposes of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person. It is an indoctrination because it is asking us to identify with a people that came on to native homelands and took their lands and killed their families. But a lot of Americans need that narrative in order not to feel negatively about their own family, histories here, and what they have today. We've talked about the ways that the Little House books have some complicated politics baked into them. From the Fourth of July speeches to the heroic white settler headed west fulfilling some sort of divine mandate. And then there's Rose's connection to libertarian ideology.

And there is no question that the libertarian fantasy Rose tried to weave through the little house books falls under the heading of propaganda. We also know from the first episode that the long winter was used as actual American propaganda by General Douglas MacArthur in Japan. But can we really call the full Little House series, a work of propaganda? Or rather, is that the only thing they are? I'm not convinced that was Laura's intention. Nor that the books would have lasted this long

if that had been their sole purpose. Rose very much intended for her books to be tools of propaganda for her libertarian beliefs. And her books, as we know, have not stood the test of time. We do know, however, that the little house books can and have harmed people who are not white. But what if they were taught to children

with some of the context we've attempted to provide here? I asked Dr. Reese if she felt it would be enough to teach the little house books critically to kids, or in conjunction with books that describe the experience from the point of view of a native child. But Dr. Reese thinks this wouldn't go far enough. When a book wins awards or is loved, it is because of the writing. In some way it is beckoning to the reader. And so when you try to ask someone to start reading the book

and then stop and think critically about that character, you're doing this twist on their heart, their head, their emotions, all of that. If your goal is to understand racism, you don't need to do it using a book like this, where you're asking kids to read it from cover to cover. A professor friend of mine said, if you want to teach racism and older books like that,

just rip the book apart. Give reading group number one, chapter one, and the second reading group, chapter two. Dr. Rees believes it's impossible to give these books to children and expect them to understand the context, even if it is provided. I think the harm is too great because it's not just that harm. It's the context of larger,

more widespread harms. So it's just one more saying that native children have to endure. And it's one more saying that non-native children go through that affirms those mistaken ideas that they get just as a matter of life in the United States. And why can't native kids have stories that affirm them? Like other people do instead of having to deal with that story in their classroom. Dr. Ries advocates for Little House only having a place in the college level classroom, which made us curious, what does it look like when little houses used in this manner? What does it like to encounter little house for the first time as a grown person, particularly for people from younger generations who have grown up with a lot more resources and viewpoints

than many of us did? It turns out, I would soon get an answer to this question. While we were in the early stages of making this podcast, I woke up one morning to a series of messages on my phone from various friends and even just acquaintances. They were all sending me the same tweet that had gone viral. Here's what the tweet said. Did you read the little house on the prairie books as a child? And if so, how old are you now?

I'm teaching a class and none of the students have heard of these titles, much less read them. I'm trying to see when these books fell out of favor. So I just came home and threw up on Twitter. Like, did you read these books? And if so, when? Because I kind of wanted to see maybe when they stopped being popular. That's Dr. Julia H. Lee, Professor of Asian American Studies at UC Irvine.

She sent that tweet out, not expecting such a huge response. I have a very small, small, small, small footprint on Twitter, but I was shocked at the number of responses I got, and I'm still getting responses almost two months later. So over 4,000 people responding, I read the books. When I was this age, I never read the books. And so it was just really, really interesting to see how many people wanted to talk about the books and their experience reading them.

On the one hand, the amount of responses Dr. Lee received definitely proved that the books are still as popular as ever. On the other hand, the reaction was mixed. I would say that more people were like, I love them and I've passed them on to my children. But there were, I think, a significant number of people who said, I read the books, but I'm not planning on passing them on to my own children or to young people in my life, because I realize now how problematic they are. Dr. Lee had sent out this tweet in the first place because of an experience she had had in her classroom. I am currently teaching a class at UCI called the Asian American West and one of the novels that we're reading is by

Linda Sue Park and it's called Prairie Lotus and it's an Asian American retelling of Little House on the Prairie. As part of the preparation, Dr. Lee assigned Little House on the Prairie. As part of the preparation, Dr. Leah signed Little House on the Prairie, the book. And before we started talking about Little House, I always asked my students this, how many of you've read this book before, and none of the students raised their hand, which is quite common,

but they kind of looked at me funny while I was asking this, and I said, how many of you've heard of this book before, and none of them had, none of them. But I was really taken it back, but these books had been huge in my own childhood, and I assumed that the popularity still linger. Once her students did read the book, they definitely had thoughts.

I think it was really interesting to see it through the eyes of my students because they had a lot to say about all, you know, it was a little bit of, I can't believe they let children hate this. And their analysis was really spot on, you know, they talked about how not only are the kind of representation of Native Americans and the kind of, the hateful rhetoric directed towards them, but also the books representation of gender and patriarchy

and kind of all of those things. And so I don't think any of them would say, oh yeah, this is a book. I'm reading to my own children or anything like that, quite, quite opposite. This got us curious. Had the little house books and all their many problems finally lost their broad appeal to younger generations?

In December, we went to a college classroom where the Little House books were being taught. We wanted to try and dig deeper into this question. Lizzie Skernick allowed us to participate in her class at NYU on historical fiction writing. The students had been assigned Little House in the big woods and little house on the prairie. There were about 10 students in the class and only a few had read the books as kids. I think it's fair to say the others were thoroughly unimpressed. I wasn't ever read these books when I was a child and I'm so happy that my mom decided not to do that. For me, it was kind of exciting to see what all the hype was about, but then turns out there's no hype.

I think that so many kids that idolized and romanticized this, why did they want to do nothing? Like, why did they want to put on aprons? When the students moved deeper into their analysis of the books, their thinking was very in line with everything we've been talking about in the last six episodes. And the parts they found the most disturbing could definitely be categorized as propaganda.

I was thinking while reading this, what haven't they written? What histories haven't been written while reading this? And what have we been glazing over? What other side stories were happening? I think as a child I wouldn't have like this because I would think, where am I in this? And that's why I didn't enjoy it as much. I don't understand like why America would romanticize this period all after these books because everything in the books

it just feels so traumatic and I don't know it's just so messed up. I did interact with these as a kid and I wasn't into it. I was like I was kind of warned not like not allowed to but kind of like warned against reading them by my mom because she was like the racist and straight up and I was like a little kid like okay I'll take a look for myself. And like you said, it's hard to romanticize it because it's like I'm not going to romanticize being a settler. I also think like it's like very concerning that the wide global audience

is influenced by this text of what American history is or what the ideals of American self-sufficiency were. And then be romanticized in this book series, like by Little Girl, is just sort of like, it's like the maple syrup on America. I was still thinking about Dr. Reese's argument that the Little House books should not be read to children in classrooms.

So I asked these students what they thought. Would these be books you would give or suggest being read by small kids? No. Not like you have to. Like there was sort of, in my family, there was like a, this is like required reading to be a little kid, but like,

it might not, I won't ban it from a bookshelf. Yeah, no, no. Like, but not be like, you must. I would never give it to my child. But like, it's just much more important at this point to have more diversity. Like, at this point, it's like, I'd rather that the focus be on reversing a lot of the harm that children's books have done. These days, kids have a lot of options when it comes to what they want to read. Even when it comes to pioneer stories. Dr. Julia Lee remarked on how much things have changed since she was a kid.

Children's literature and young adult literature is so much richer now. There's so many. When we were kids, we were reading probably Little House on the prairie. We read Ramona, Quimmy. Like, you know, it was very, like everybody was kind of reading the same thing. And now I feel like there's just so much representation. That was not my experience reading as a child.

I never expected to read about Asian people, Korean folks, anything like that. So I wasn't even looking, I didn't even know to look for it. Like I just accepted, like this was, this was what, these were the types of characters that people read about. Maybe we're in a time where there's so many options for kids, so many wonderful ways for them to see themselves in writing and on screen.

The little house is no longer necessary. This reminded me of something we had heard and dispensed out to Coda when we talked to the kids participating in the pageant there. I've actually never read the books. No, I worked at the Memorial Society for a while and I had to read all the books. And to you. I mean, not my genre, but as a general book, it's good. What's your name? Fantasy, gay romance.

When it comes to children's book series that offer alternate representation, Louise Urgex Birchmark House series is perhaps the most well-known. But we're going to list others in the notes to this episode. Dr. Reese also had some suggestions. Right now, I'm very keen, very high on forever cousins. It's a new picture book, and it's about these two little girls. They're cousins. They actually live in the San Francisco Bay area, but why are they there?

And so in the author's notes, the author tells them about one of the government programs that asked native peoples to leave their whole land and set up a life in a major city. And so San Francisco has a huge native community. And so these little girls are part of that. So I'd like people to just use books by native writers because the author's notes that are in there that give context to what this story is about are vital, to undoing or filling in what teachers did not get when they were in school. So if we have all these other options, why does little house continue to have such appeal?

In part, it's for the reasons we've discussed. The coziness and the familiar mythology are comforting to a lot of people. But we also have to recognize that the legacy of finding comfort in these stories has resulted in an enormous cultural footprint that is very difficult to extricate from because it is so comfortable. In the next few episodes, we're taking a look at the enormity of that cultural imprint.

Without question, one of the reasons Little House is so ingrained in our culture is that somewhere in the world right now, you can turn on a television and watch the 1970s TV show that was based on the books. Would the books even still be around if it weren't for that iconic show? Do Laura and Rose owe their legacy to the vision of one man and his rippling packs and shiny thick hair? Enter Michael Landon.

For all of Rose's dreams of Little House as a commercial for libertarian fantasy, even Rose could not have dreamed up the Little House fantasy that emerged only a few short years after her death. Next week on Wilder, we're going to Hollywood. Wilder is written and hosted by me, Glonismichol. Our story editors are Joe Piazza and Emily Marinoff. Our senior producer is Emily Marinoff. Our producers are Mary Do, Shino Ozaki, and Jessica Crine-Chitch. Our associate producer is Lauren Philip,

sound design and mixing by Amanda Rose Smith. Production help from Asavari Sharma, Christina Everett, Julia Weaver, and Abou Safar. Our theme in additional music was composed by Elise McCoy. We are executive produced by Joe Piazza, Nikki Tore, Ali Perry, and me. If you're enjoying Wilder, please consider rating and reviewing us on Apple podcasts. It actually helps us out quite a lot. Thanks to Ronda and the little house on the Prairie Museum outside of Independence, Kansas.

Special thanks to Lizzie Skernick and her wonderful class for letting us join their discussion and sharing their thoughts with us. And thanks as always to Dr. Debbie Reese, who was so generous with her time in scholarship. Thank you as always to CDM Studios. We've listed extensive resources in our show notes on all the topics we've discussed in this episode, as well as reading options for the children in your life. You can also find our contact info there if you want to write to us with your own thoughts and questions. Follow us on Instagram at Wilder-UnderScore podcast and on TikTok at Wilder Podcast, where

you can see behind-the-scenes footage from all our travels. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next week. Sonora and IHART's My Cultura Podcast Network present Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Did you miss me? The new season of lies, scandals and skeletons in the closet. I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season, it's all out in the open. Listen to Princess of South Beach on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up? This is Chris Rudiger. I'm the owner and co-founder of the 615 House. And you're listening to my new podcast, the 615 House podcast. It's a chance to take a deep dive with some of Nashville's hottest artists as we learn their stories. And I try to keep the questions pretty spicy as these artists sit in the hot seat. Hang out with us as we talk to some of your favorite artists here on the 615 house podcast. Listen to the 615 house podcast on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Jarin on my new podcast, thinking out loud with Elvis Jarin. I'll be bringing or wherever you get podcasts. but all jacked up because after being in this business for as long as I have, I want to get to the bottom of what makes people tick. Now listen to my new podcast, Thinking Out Loud on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.