Wilder - BONUS: A chat with Melissa Gilbert

Episode Date: August 10, 2023

We’re nearing the end of our series, but before we go we have a surprise for you. Is it tin cups and peppermint sticks? A pig’s bladder? No! It’s our extended interview with the one and only Melissa Gilbert! No one knows what it’s like to shoulder the legacy of Laura Ingalls Wilder quite like Melissa. 50 years ago, she was cast as Laura Ingalls on the Little House TV show at just 9 years old, which means Melissa has spent close to a lifetime with Laura and all of her complications. She talked to us about that experience, as well as what it was like working on the TV show, finding agency as a young actor, her business Modern Prairie, her activism, and even her thoughts on Rose. We hope you enjoy this interview as much as we did! Go deeper: Melissa Gilbert’s memoirs Prairie Tale and Back to the PrairieModern Prairie Follow us for behind the scenes content! @WilderPodcast on TikTok@Wilder_Podcast on Instagram We want to hear from you! If listening to Wilder has changed your thinking on Laura Ingalls Wilder and the Little House books, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. You might be featured in our final episode ;) See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sonora and IHART's My Cultura Podcast Network present Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Did you miss me? The new season of lies, scandals and skeletons in the closet. I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season, it's all out in the open. Listen to Princess of South Beach on the IHART Radio app, a few podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm the Wizard of Oz, I'm the one making everything happen. Real Housewife of Salt Lake City Star, Jen Shaw, is running the scam of the century.

I remember one time, Stuart lost like about 8 million. Jen was very upset and she came down to the office late at night with coach. Y'all are screaming at him. I am asking him where their money is. Listen to Queen of the Con, season four, the Unreal Housewife, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Out of the shadows is a podcast on America's immigration system told to the eyes of our Latino community.

I didn't understand how difficult life was going to be being an adult in the first and I mean, we see my doctor in the age of 14. I'm Patty Rodriguez and I'm Eric Galindo follow us as we tell the incredible true story of a group of young people who took on the system and changed the course of history. Hello Wilder listeners! This is Producer Emily taking over for Glyneth today because we are still prepping for a final episode. Thank you to everyone who's come this far with us, and especially thank you to those who have reached out to share about their relationship with Laura and their life. We're incorporating a bunch of your feedback into our grand finale

episode. But while you wait for that, we have a surprise for you. There are so many things we haven't been able to include in this series, moments from the road, more background on Lauren Rose's lives. And of course, all the fascinating things are guest set and interviews. We wanted to release one of those full interviews, so we present to you our extended Melissa Gilbert interview. If you grew up loving the Little House television show, you know Melissa Gilbert. I know that when Glenn has first started talking to me about a podcast about Laura Ingalls Wilder, the first image that popped up in my head was 10-year-old Melissa, running down that grassy hill with braids in a floral, calico dress.

Of course now we know that Laura is so many things, and no one understands that legacy better than Melissa, who's been soldering a part of it for the past 50 years. We're so thankful that she was willing to talk to us about what that experience has been like. Our conversation ranged from her time on the TV show with Michael Landon and the rest of the cast, to finding agency as a young actor, to her business, modern prairie, to her activism, and even her thoughts on Rose Wilder Lane. We spoke to Melissa over Zoom, where she came to us from her home in the Catskills.

By the way, she now lives there in a very picturesque, cozy, home-spun, Laura-esque life. It was so great to talk to her. We're so grateful she shared her time with us. We hope you enjoy. Thank you for agreeing to do this. We're so excited that you're here. Thank you for inviting me. I'm thrilled.

Nine-year-old me is beyond thrilled. I have to tell you. Well, first of all, we should have you introduce yourself, Melissa. I'm sure everyone's going to recognize your voice when they listen to this, but you know, for the purposes of three people who might not know who you are, if you could just properly introduce yourself, that would be really wonderful. Hi, I am Melissa Gilbert, and I had the incredible honor of playing Laura Ingalls Wilder. Laura Ingalls first and then Laura Ingalls Wilder, ultimately, on Little House in the Prairie,

the television series. How did that come to happen? My first TV series I was ever on was Gunsmug. That's how old I am. I think I was about five or six at that point. And I really just only did little jobs here and there because my parents felt that me being school was more important. But Little House in the Prairie came along I really just only did little jobs here and there because my parents felt that me being school

was more important. But Little House of the Prairie came along and it was my mom's favorite book. Eh, I had read Little House of the Big Woods and was starting to read Little House of the Prairie at that time. And I was pretty excited. And so the decision was made that I would audition.

And I don't know what everyone else was thinking, but I knew there were hundreds of girls auditioning too. So I figured it's never going to happen. And then it just, you know, was the ordinary process call back, call back, call back screen test. And I got the part and the adventure began and what an adventure it was. It's been, you know, nearly 50 years since we first aired. So it has been 50 years since we shot the pilot Not a day goes by that I don't think about little house in the prairie or mention something to do with little house in the prairie or Laura or Rose or

The Ingalls relatives or something that has something to do with them It's so infused in my in my being at this point I want to talk about that in a bit because I'm curious what it's like to shoulder that legacy and so infused in my being at this point. I wanna talk about that in a bit, because I'm curious what it's like to shoulder that legacy, but just going back to the audition process, did you, during that process, audition with Michael Landon or any of the other members of the,

who eventually became the cast? I did, I got to go in and read with Michael early on, Kent McCray, our producer was there, and Susan Sukman, who later became Susan McCray, was there. And I remember Michael, and the reason I remember Michael and I went to a private school in Los Angeles, the Buckley School, and I had auditioned and screen tested for a little house, and didn't know if I'd gotten a part park and I was at school one day in the lunch area and this other girl ran up to me and she said, are you Melissa? And I said,

yes, she said, I'm Leslie Landon and my dad says you're going to be Laura. And nobody knew my agents hadn't gotten a call yet. My mother didn't know. I ran to the office because there was no cell phones then. I ran to the office and said it was an emergency. I had to call my mom and my mom called my agents and my agents called the network. And Leslie got so grounded, so grounded, we're still friends to this day. But when I auditioned, I didn't know who Michael and it was. I'd never watched Bananza. My family was beside themselves.

My grandfather, who was a very famous comedy writer and is all right sent a note over to Michael and he knew him from writing the Dean Martin Roasts and my grandfather actually typed out my audition scene to army on his typewriter and my mom and my godmother my grandmother everybody were they were all hystericals and I was going to meet this Michael Landon who was supposed to be just the best and the most handsome and so talented. And I didn't know, and I went into the room and I first saw him and soon as I met him, I knew exactly why they were all hysterical. He just, he glowed, you know, he just, he had it undeniable. And the first time I heard him laugh, he'd be the best laugh for any human. I've ever been around aside from my kids and grandkids, who their laughs kill me. But his laugh was just so this could be it. And then I found out later, too,

after the screen test, that when they took the screen tests to show to NBC to the network, Michael only took mine and basically said, if it's not her, then we can't do it. Which is, I'm glad I didn't know that at the time. That would have been a lot for a nine-year-old to carry. But now looking back, it's immensely appreciated. Well, speaking of a lot for a nine-year-old to carry, you know, we spoke to Alison Arngrim and Karen Grassley, who both brought up on their own, and Karen Grassley, who both brought up on their own, what an extraordinary presence you were as a nine-year-old. Like, Alison Arngrim talks about meeting you

for the first time, and I think described you as being sort of like a firecracker, but just how in command of yourself and how, I guess in control, you were almost, like, that you were very powerful force and really knew exactly what you wanted and what was expected. Is that, do you remember it like that?

I knew what my job was and I rejoiced, I rejoiced then doing it. I loved that job. I still loved doing it. I love that job. I still love that job. I love to act. I have, you know, now at this point, it had and has at least eight other careers. Acting is the one thing that that doesn't necessarily

come the easiest, but fits the best and brings me the most satisfaction. And so as a kid, it was just as maybe commanding and in control as they described me being, I felt like I was as full of wonder at the same time. I mean, I just, everything was a marvel to me. The fact that they brought me boots that had buttons and they had to teach me how to use a button hook

to button those high button boots, they were legitimately button boots, no hidden zippers. And that to me was like the best game of dress up in the world. I mean, I, there were for real cows and real horses and real chickens and other kids to play with. And we were outside, I think more than we were inside. And there were all these great grownups around who were like a bunch of crazy Anson uncles and there were all these wonderful men on the crew who taught me how to write horses and Would throw me in the air and catch me. I mean it was heaven for a kid. I even loved going to school on this set

You know, I dilly dally there was, I mean, it was common knowledge with the assistant directors. They'd have to always say, Hey, half pipe, go to school. That was like the thing. Half pipe, go to school. It would just trickle down the whole crew where I'd, you know, be standing and getting and go, uh, half pipe, go to school. And it would, you know, one by one, I'd walk by everyone. But even that part, even the school part was great. I loved my teacher, Mrs. Minier. I loved being in the classroom with Allison when she was there. She got to go to regular school more than I did,

but it was a really fun environment. And then being able to work with all of those extraordinary actors and crew, the adults, and to be considered their peer while we were working was an honor, actually. And very, I didn't feel burdened by it ever. I felt like it was gifted to me. Like, this was a tremendous responsibility, but they were giving me the responsibility because they knew I could do it and that made me feel really good about myself as an actor So you felt very supported on the set always I never felt pushed or forced to do anything. I didn't want to do It was a very as kid friendly as a set could be this was the kid friendliest. We were contained, but we weren't caged, certainly.

Allison said that one of the things she remembered about Michael was people ask her that he respected her as a worker. You know, like, he respected. There was a lot of respect that you towards the child actors that they were getting paid and they were here to do a job as opposed to hand holding I guess was the sense I got. It was the same with anyone. As long as we did our job because we were not at we arc-crew love blessedly because they've been together so long since some since high-shaparral and then up in Anza and then Little House. They worked really, really fast.

There wasn't any time for delays. So as long as we were professional, adults and children are white and knew our lines, our jobs, what we had to do, and everything went smoothly, that was great. But if someone came in and didn't know, was unprofessional in any way, it wouldn't last very long and they'd be gone and it didn't matter if they were a kid or an adult, there was just no time for unprofessional in any way, it wouldn't last very long and they'd be gone and it didn't matter if they were a kid or an adult.

There was just no time for unprofessionalism. When you say the crew called you half pint that just sort of stood out to me, was there, because you're so young, was there sort of like a bleeding over of your character into your sort of idea of yourself and your relationship with Michael and the relationship Laura has with Pa was that ever sort of confusing or? It was never confusing. It was always really clear. I mean, I had my own father who I adored, but my father passed away when I was 11. So two years into the series, I was nurturing this relationship on camera with Michael when

my father died. And our families were all really close. My parents were divorced and my mother was remarried. But my mom and my stepdad and Michael and his wife ran and their kids and our family. We all vacationed together. We went to Hawaii on spring break together. We had new year's Eve together. We went to Hawaii on spring break together. We had New Year's Eve together, we slept over each other's houses,

so our relationship transcended just work. We were tight and Michael, I always looked at him as a father figure and mentor, but never was I confused between which one was my daddy and which one was, and I call him my pa, and he is. I mean, that's my pa. And my dad is my dad. And my birth father is my birth father.

So, you know, I'm able to keep straight. I'm adopted, so I have all these relationships that I'm very well able to keep straight. I know exactly who's who. And oddly enough, for all of these wonderful men that have come in and out of my life, most of them have passed away. They're all still sort of there, and in in me and an inspiration in so many ways, Michael, especially.

You wrote and your book about him directing you and sort of getting you into the emotion. There was so much crying. There was so much crying on that show. I mean, from him as much as anyone else. I'm just curious, looking, I have no sense, but the sense of maybe emotional, I don't know if manipulation is too strong a word, but how he would get you or any other of the kid actors sort of into the place to access that emotion, or as a kid do you have access to it more easily?

For me, I mean, I think I've always been a bit of an empath, even as a kid. So accessing that kind of emotion was never difficult for me, I mean, I think I've always been a bit of an empath, even as a kid. So accessing that kind of emotion was never difficult for me. But it is, I mean, on a week-by-week basis, shooting a show like Little House in the Prairie, there's always someone crying, crying or running or running and crying at the same time, which I've seen to do in every episode, crying and running and running and crying. And there were times where those emotions were hard to tap into. And when those times would happen, Michael could kind of sense it.

If he was there, and there were many, many times where one that comes into mind, especially where I was having a hard time and just not quite in it. And he kind of cut everything and stopped everything and said, Kurt T a walk with me and he walked me away from the scent and by the time we got about, no, no, 20 feet away, he knelt down in front of me and he had tears streaming down his face and he looked at me and he said, do you have any idea how much I love you? And I started crying and he said, okay, you ready? Can we go do the scene now? Now, yeah, it was definitely manipulative, do the scene now. Now, yeah, it was definitely manipulative. But was it in a bad way? I don't know about that. I think that he knew what I needed to get where I needed to go to do my job that day.

And I didn't walk away from it feeling weird or bad or in an in hindsight as a as a highly thereby stood out looking back on that, I don't think there were things that we did on the little house that I looked back on and go, well, that was maybe weird or odd or I should not have been put in that uncomfortable position. But this was not one of those times. This is actually, as an adult, I wish I had directors like that around when I'm having a hard time getting into something. Sometimes I'm a little boost. Allison talked about feeling that her character allowed her

a safe space to express anger. And just you talking about losing your father when you were 11 if it was a sort of safe space to express complicated grief. Oh, 100%. We were not not not great at grief at home. I grew up in a family where those sort of feelings sad as an anger are considered bad, and so we don't do that. And so crying is back then was considered like a bad thing

to do, don't let the kids cry and they shouldn't cry and they shouldn't. So we didn't talk about, we didn't really share feelings, not like we do now, and certainly not like I did with my kids. I have perfect examples when my youngest son's pet mouse died. And I insisted that we have an actual funeral for the mouse and the kids didn't even want it. But I wanted them to have a moment to greet the mouse. I compensated for clearly for stuff that I was missing.

But I did have that outlet on the set. And that was a wonderful thing. Now, the other kind of odd thing was, after my father died, the family, he did not discuss it, carried through to the work. The adults were told not to discuss it with me. Probably because it would have made it hard for me to do my job, which would have delayed and cost a lot of money. This is a business.

And I don't remember anyone being particularly overly solicitous or extra nice or anything, it was just sort of regular, but there were a couple extra hugs here and there during those months and during that time. And if I look back now, I can, I remember the grotto was kind of looking at me and clocking me and making sure that I was okay. What when you say some of the situations you feel like maybe you shouldn't have been put in. I know you wrote about Dean Butler being cast, you know, as Al Manzo.

I have to say in doing the podcast, it made me rethink those episodes where you get married because you, even the character was quite young. And I was young when I was watching it, so I thought 16 was very old. But even as a grown-up, I'd never actually thought it was in the interview with him, I think I thought, you're right. I mean, so young and young for you to be put in a position with a grown man, what do you think about that now looking back? Well, I can tell you from the lens of today, you can't do that.

There's no way they could shoot it. There's no way they would cast it that way. And there's certainly no way it would be handled the way it was handled, not with, you know, now we have intimacy coordinators and we have all this dialogue around being comfortable and feeling safe, which is amazing. Nobody talked to me about it. It was just it was. Nobody said, are you uncomfortable? Are you okay? Is this all right? It was just I remember being told that the Almanzo episodes were coming. Correct pronunciation by the way is Almanzo. Anyway, so I remember being told Almanzo was coming and my assumption was you know, because Laura and Almanzo were not far apart in age in real life, not massively.

So my assumption was there'd be someone coming, it was close and aged to me, maybe one of my contemporaries. And then when they told me that it was Dean and they showed me a picture and then he came to the set, I was taken aback because my first thought was that's a man. I mean I can't even tell you what a girl I was. I mean I was a pigeon. I was a tomboy. I was 14, 15 years old, not need but tooth still had braces on. When I allowed to shave my things here comes this guy who shaves his face and who drives a car. I've been on a date. I'm kissed a boy. Fortunately I'm kiss-tably.

Fortunately, we had a little run-up to the actual marriage and stuff, but by the time we got to the sweet 16 episode and the first kiss and all of that, it was, you know, I knew Dean and I liked Dean and I got along with Dean, but I still felt like I was out of my element to put it mildly. And yet I powered through and I did it, but looking back in hindsight, if I were producing or directing or the parent, it would have been a completely different situation for my kid. Again, it's a reflection of the times and where we were and you know, you watch it now

and it doesn't look weird. Even to me and I'm watching it going, oh god, I was so uncomfortable that day. But, you know, it didn't bother me at all. I'm climbing into bed with this grown-up man and I still hadn't been on a date yet. We're having babies and I died, I think at that point I had kissed a boy. Oh, that's wild. I mean, I think thinking back to how I watched it with, it wasn't just that I wasn't questioning it. I don't recall anyone questioning it at the time. No.

Or even when I, in reruns all through my teeth, like there was no, there was no anyone saying, well, maybe think about this. It's almost like Laura went from, she hit puberty and then she was married. There was very little, there was very little, you know, difference between, it's almost like they didn't know what to do with you once. I think that's true. I think you know, they, they're, there comes a time where you've,

you got to contribute to the family and the only way to do that at that time is to either be a teacher or get married or both because there were no other opportunities for women. So, it is a reflection of the actual time, but I would defy anyone. I don't care who it is. I don't care if it's Tom Hanks or Steven Spielberg to go to a studio or a network and say, we're going to do a show where the 15-year-old marries the 26-year-old. The 15-year-old in real life, not even like a 22 year old who can fast for 15. Exactly. Exactly.

But now, yeah, no, no, no, no, no. I just don't, you can't do it now. And again, like I said, though, when you watch it, even today, it doesn't look odd, and it certainly didn't appear awkward for either of us. But it was very awkward for me and uncomfortable. And I did do things like in scripts that would come down on the pike that said, you know, in they kiss, I would go sneaking in and say, can we change it to hug please? But I had to advocate for myself because the

adults were not having the conversation with me. And but you were listening to to some extent. I was. I was definitely listening to. I can feel myself getting like getting shy and embarrassed again, like I did then. I did. I did a lot of blushing. I mean, it's extraordinary. I think, too, what we're hitting on is like in some of those episodes that dealt with women, it felt the show even at the time felt a little aggressive. And then some episodes that deal with race

or even the amount of black people who were cast in the show felt very ahead of its time. The episode was Solomon, you know, frequently I see it come across, you know, social media. What do you hear about the most? That, especially after COVID, you know,

when everyone was kind of going back to a little house and they were watching quarantine and play the egg and all of those episodes that we did, that summer of 2020 when the country was going through or the country the world was going through that massive social upheaval and unrest all around George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and all of the horrible injustices that were going on. The wisdom of Solomon came up a lot and I was hearing on Twitter from people like Gemi Fox and and Biola Davis who knew Little House in the Prairie was so woke and I'm sitting and I'm going I did I did I knew because I had to do that

seeing where I had to try and wipe the black off of Todd Bridges' face and I He didn't I asked not to do it. I said to Michael. I I can't do that. That's horrible Who does that? He said yeah, but we're trying to show people How wrong it is to be ignorant and how open-lord is to learning something new And I say kill a lot then I'll do it, but You're I mean I had to say you kill a lot, then I'll do it. But you're, I mean, I had to say you're a real Negro person and train white, the black off of his face was absurd to me. But once it was explained that this is what we were doing. And the lessons we were teaching, that was impactful to me because I realized that our show was more than just Laura's story.

It was the story of our time at that time. Remember, this was the 70s, and the country was going through a great deal of civil unrest, the civil rights movement, the ERA. We were, I was post-Vietnam, we did an episode about the soldiers return, Richard Mulligan playing the civil war veteran coming home addicted to morphine, while all of these veterans were coming back from Vietnam and addicted to heroin. It was very timely and topical that the episodes we did dealing with anti-Semitism and nativism and the rights of Native Americans. I mean, these are themes that keep coming back and coming back and coming back.

And we even touched on women's rights and shovonism and the mistreatment of women at the same time while marginalizing women to do nothing but pour coffee. Sometimes for many episodes at a time, one of the most staunch feminists I know was Karen Grassley, who was one of the great coffee porers of all time. But then every once in a while they'd give her an episode where she put her foot down and said, well, and remind Pa that she is his partner and not just his property. But again, we're reflecting the 1800s when women had zero rights. And a reflection of the 1970s where women had maybe half a point of rights, but still, you know, certainly not where we are today and not where we need to be. Sonoro and I hearts my Gultura podcast network, present. Princess of South Beach, Season 2.

Gas crews back. Did you miss me? The Calderons are back with a new season of lies, scandals, and skeletons in the closet. And speaking of closets... I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season, it's all out in the open. What color are your pants? Okay, maybe not everything.

These people look like they're mixed up in some really dangerous stuff. Starring ex-mayo, Dani Pino, Andy Bustillos, Raúles Parasin, Ginadores, Alan Eisenberg, and more. Keep up with the most notorious family in Miami on the mystery with this new season of Princess of South Beach. Listen to Princess of South Beach as part of the Michael Dura podcast network available on the IHR radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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you get your podcasts. Welcome back to our conversation with Melissa Gilbert. There were so many points we couldn't get to in our already lengthy episode on the television series, and something that we only slightly touched on were the complications of Michael Landon as a person. If you're a little house die hard, you might know that Karen Grassley, who played Carolina in Goals on the show, came out with a memoir a few years back that detailed a better contract dispute between her and Michael over her salary, and she also opened up about the general misogyny on the little house set in the 70s and 80s. Unsure of how those dynamics might have affected the kids on set,

we asked Melissa what she thought of all this now. Were you aware as a kid? I know just from talking to other cast members that the kids shot during the day and then some of the grown-up scenes were shot sort of after the kids went home. But we were ever aware of the tension that Karen Grassley wrote about in her book between her and Michael and sort of the contract dispute. I wasn't aware of the contract dispute. I was aware of the misogynistic humor. By and large, no, not just Michael, it was the entire all the men on the crew.

And I heard the jokes. And some of them were horrible, and completely inappropriate. And you know, those sets tend to be very ribbled, body places anyway. But the anti-woman, or the demeaning of women, I should say, jokes didn't impact me because I sort of didn't, some of them I didn't actually understand

either, but like some of them were pretty raunchy and I could see Karen stiffen and bristle and I roll and walk away and I knew that that was inappropriate and was making her feel bad and or angry and I knew that that was wrong. I didn't, I was a kid, I'm not going to get in the middle of the adults, I didn't get in the middle of my parents arguing. So I wasn't about to get in the middle of my mom's paw. Either it's not my place. In my inside, I think, you know, I read her book, she's 100% her experience. And it is a legitimate experience. I actually had It is a legitimate experience. I actually had lunch. Oh gosh, a while back with Jen Landon. And it was right when Karen's book came out. And she said to me, I don't understand what all the hoopla is with all the Michael Landon supporters

who are mad at Karen for telling the truth. She said, I totally imagined my dad was a misogynist back then. That's just the way it was. He was that guy. Doesn't mean that he's evil. It was just, he was a reflection of his times. I mean, one of the things I think about often is what sort of television would Michael and would be making now after the last few years? And I don't think it would be anything, he would be functioning the way he did them.

And I think he'd be telling stories that are timely and important and topical. I think he'd be appalled at what's going on in the world today in many, many ways, or at least I hope. But based on what I know of that man, he would have grown with the times. You can see evidence of that in some of the episodes and also touched by an angel.

I mean, in certain ways, he was so progressive, so much crying. He cried so much all an angel. I mean, in certain ways, he was so progressive, so much crying. He cried so much all the time. And I think that is progressive for, he was also shirtless, oiled up with perfect hair. And I think the collision of those two things is a contradiction.

Yes, I think so too, but he was a contradiction as well. This was a man who was spoused family values and community values and was married three times and a children was free to front women and was deeply flawed in human, but who isn't? Doesn't mean he's a bad person. It just means he's a human person.

And he tried to tell stories that he felt were important and impactful. So all you can ask from a filmmaker. What are the episodes you hear about the most? I hear about the Lord is my shepherd a lot. It's my favorite, too. And it's very hard for me to watch. Sometimes it's even hard for me to talk about.

In fact, I can sort of feel like a lump in my throat now. I hear about bunny and the race. People really dig the wheelchair, push down the hill. That's the only time my mother walked into the family room and said, Laura seems mean. I was like, Laura's amazing. And my mother said, I don't think that was a nice thing to do and then exited the room. Well, Laura was pushed to the brink.

I'll tell you, Alice and got her revenge. Many years ago I had to go in for a colonoscopy and she took me and when it was over they wouldn't let me walk out of the surgery center. I had to go out of wheelchair and she pushed it and she kept threatening to shut me down. A number of different hills that day. Even though I didn't, I said, you know, something I thought I wouldn't write it, and it's all about letting me do that. The other thing I hear about a lot too is the mud fight.

People like a lot when Alison and I got physical. Yeah. I mean, I actually hear that from a lot of fans and I think, I mean, there's one sort of appeal to that, but I think it was having girls express sort of like complicated emotions to each other and that jealousy and competition which felt very recognizable at that age. I think the other thing that informed those performances and maybe the audience was getting it subliminally was that we really loved each other dearly. And I've always said, you know, you don't really have to necessarily get along all that well with someone you're doing a love scene with, but boy, you have to love and trust the person you're doing a fight scene west.

That's amazing. I'm curious, you know, sort of, I just want to talk a bit about your, you know, after a little house career, though, it feels like the professionalism of that set, set you up well because then you became, you know, president of SAG, you ran for office. Are there direct connections between coming off that experience that moved you in to sort of other positions of power? There is a step in the middle that happened, actually. When I was 14, my mother took me to meet with a manager, man named Ray Katz, Raymond Katz. He established my production company then when I was 14, half pint productions, and asked what stories I wanted to tell, what characters I wanted to play. And my mom and I had talked about it before I went in, and we talked about doing a miracle

worker, and me playing Helen Keller. And that started while we were doing Little House. So I was actually producing and starring in my own films before Little House Ended. So we did the Middle of Worker, Daria von Frank's splinter in the grass, and then Little House Ended, and we continued working. So I learned how to produce at that time too. And also remember, I wasn't just there working in playing. I was also on the little house set watching Michael and Kent

and watching the crew and learning everybody's jobs, which was something Michael wanted me to do. I knew what the Greensman did. I knew what the cross-service people did. I knew what the Wranglers did. I knew what everyone's job was. So I had a respect for that sort of team. And when we went to do our own productions,

we actually just took the little house crew with us. We had that same fantastic land and work ethic in the half-my productions as well. And so, as I got older, I got more and more involved. And eventually, many, many years later, ran and got elected as the president of Screen Actors Guild. And while I was there, I got elected to the Executive Council of the AFL-CIO and the California Film Commission, and so I really got involved in

the political realm. And that just seemed a natural progression many, many years later when I was asked to run for office, I thought, well, yeah, I think I can do this. I mean, it's supposed to be by the people for the people, right? So I'm the people, why not? Do you think about doing it again? No, I don't. I think I was rescued. I think my neck, which decided to give out

and I needed to have a third massive spinal surgery. I had to drop out of the race. That was 2016. And it was kind of a, and I would to drop out of the race. That was 2016. I know it was kind of a, I would have been a really difficult year to, a couple of years to serve and travel back and forth, obviously, with my neck, but also with the political climate,

just worsening and worsening and worsening. I think that I was saved from having to deal with a lot more emotional turmoil than I do from a distance. Does not mean I'm not completely involved them on the Democratic Committee up here. I'm very involved in the issues that I'm passionate about, and I think I can do a lot more work on the ground. I would rather be on the ground in a protest than in a chamber making those kinds of decisions and trying to pass laws

in a system that's clearly broken and is not getting anywhere. No matter what we do, the pendulum swings, the pendulum swings, the pendulum swings. It's too frustrating. I feel like I can do much more from here. What has it been like for you to shoulder the legacy of Laura? I was thinking of sort of like Anna of Green Gables and Megan Fellows. Anna of Green Gables is a fictional character, but you, like Laura Ingalls Wilder making the decision at age 65 to sit down and write her life story has impacted your life in such enormous ways. It's hard to grasp.

Like what is it like to shoulder all of that? Really, I mean, it sounds so tried to say this, but it is what it is. It's what I've been given, and it is a gift. I do feel very honored to have been chosen, and I do feel very blessed that this is my life because of it. I feel a certain responsibility to the stories, to the legacy of Laura and the Ingalls family

and Rose and everyone around her. It's interesting. My husband and I were talking about this sort of subject recently because the first three characters really that I played of import in my life are Lauren Gleuthwilder, Helen Keller and Anne Frank. Not only do those tremendous acting opportunities, but all three of those women or people have monstrous legacies.

I mean, unbelievable import to the world, and not just to America, but to the world. And so I think if I get too caught up in in shouldering the responsibility of that, I'll feel very, very weighted down. I felt a lot more responsibility to behave like a nice young lady in public when I really just kind of wanted to be

a bit of a wild child myself in my late teens and early 20s. I remember actually when I was a kid I got one letter, I wasn't allowed to read my fan mail which is a good thing. There was one letter that I got a hold of when I was about 15 that had been hidden from me. I think it came when I was about 12. It was from a little girl who wrote and said, I wish I could be more like you because my dad said he would hit me less if I was. And I'm really glad I didn't see that till I was older, but still that's great. And throw a lot for a kid.

So they were right to keep that from me. That's a lot for anyone. That'd be a lot for you right now. These are the things that women will come up to me and cry and say, you know, my childhood was miserable. I was molested by an uncle and little house in the prairie was my escape. And I love that.

And I appreciate it. And I am there for it. But I can only do so much of that. And then I'm just depleted. It's like being a therapist a little bit. Wow. It was a big show. It was a really, it's an honor.

It's a treasured responsibility. It's the best show, but it was a really... It's an honor, it's a treasured responsibility, it's the best way to put it. And I hope it continues in so many different ways too. I would love to continue telling the stories, living these stories, bringing these stories to life we'll see, you know? Sonoro and I hearts my Gultura podcast network, present, Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Gas crews back. Did you miss me? The Calderons are back with a new season of lies, scandals and skeletons in the closet.

And speaking of closets... I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season it's all out in the open. What color are your pants? OK, maybe not everything. These people look like they're mixed up in some really dangerous stuff. Starring ex-mayo, Dani Pino, Andy Bustillos, Raúl

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our Latino community. I didn't understand how difficult life is going to be being a doctor in the first and I mean, I received my doctor in the age of 14. This season is about our dreamers.

Undocumented students who challenged Barack Obama to pass DACA or deferred and I'm here to see my doctor in the age of 14. This season is about our dreamers, undocumented students who challenged Barack Obama to pass DACA or deferred action for childhood arrivals. I'm Patty Rodriguez. And I'm Eric Galindo. Follow us as we tell the incredible true story of a group of young people who took on the system and changed the course of history.

The way to survive in the United States as an undocumented immigrant was to be invisible, and that changed completely with the dreamers. The movement pushed Obama and his administration to create DACA, because otherwise, we would just kept supporting all of us. Sometimes, in order to survive, you need to step out of the shadows.

Listen to out of the shadows, dreamers, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From our last episode, you know that Melissa Gilbert has most recently carried on Laura's legacy with her lifestyle brand Modern Prairie. Our producer and co-host Joe Piazza stepped in to ask Melissa how it came to be. Yeah, I mean, I... I love it. By the way, I love everything on the site. I want it all. I want to decorate my cabin with Modern Prairie. But I want to hear a little bit about how it came to be. How did this become a business? I have found this sort of little hatchling of an idea for a couple decades.

There's something more to do with just the entire prairie ethos. It all from each starts with all objects of butter bell. And if you don't know what a butter bell is, a butter keeper is, I actually have one, I'm looking at right now. It's a ceramic holder for butter. You put the butter in it and you put it in the crock

and you put it upside down in water and it keeps your butter fresh and soft without having to refrigerate it. And they've been around for eons. People look at them and go, oh my God, that's so cool. And I always thought, let's create something around a butter bell and go from there and take us back to these sweet simple things, which really are the best things after all. I just pull on Lureenbl's Wilder celebration, but how do we do this?

And so I had conversations with the branding department at the agency and put together decks of ideas of things that these could be and it kind of came and went and came and went, but it was always in the back of my mind. And two years ago on my birthday, I had friends over up here, my friends, John and Roswell, who were the first friends we made up here. And I was talking about this idea for this retail line kind of lifestyle-y little house. I don't know. And I said, I want to do this. I showed them the deck.

And Johnny said, I know this woman, Nicole O'Hazzy, who has a company who's looking for something like this. Let me connect you to. Well, Nicole and I got on like a house of fire, like instantaneously. And we had a few conversations about what it could be. And she came back to me with her version of it, which was a bajillion times better than my deck. And we signed papers and said, let's go. And it really started out as yes, a retail line sort of,

but there's more to it than that. It's a place for obviously women over a certain age, the mature one, like me. And it's not just about buying things. It's now grown into a community. And what's fascinating is we have all these workshops and everything from, you know, how to paint with watercolor to how to deal with grief during the holidays, to how to get unstuck, which is a big thing with women over a certain age, you know, their kids are gone. We're reassessing what we want to do with this last third of our lives. Do we want to stay in the business we're in? Do we want

to follow our passion? Do we want to travel, are we alone, are we caring for aging, parents, are we, you know, all of these things that we're dealing with at this part in our lives, there's no space for a community for people to talk about these things. So we started this sort of, we created this space with these workshops and in the beginning, you know, we have these very deep emotional workshops while it's reached a point where they're talking to each other and supporting each other through transitions, through changes, through, they're becoming a community. And that's kind of

the heart of prairie for me is the community aspect. There's nothing more reassuring than knowing that you're not the only one who's experiencing whatever it is, whether it's emotional, physical, psychological, doesn't matter. To know that there are people who've gone through it ahead of you and that there are people coming up behind you who will follow in your footsteps and come to you for that advice, that's what community is. And we support each other and we, it's about love. And that's, again, it goes back to Laurence Wilder and the Inglis family and the sweet, simple things really are.

Those are the real things. Compassion, tolerance, understanding, and love. So that's the basis of modern prairie. And now it's just grown into this thing. What do you think it is about this kind of prairie aesthetic, the simplicity, this back-to-basics, that is so cozy for people? Is it nostalgia? Is it... is it just aesthetics? It's just nice to look at. It's modern prairie. It's the napd dresses. There is a whole cottage court being happening. Why do people love it so much?

As it is cozy, I think we all really rediscovered cozy during lockdown too. I mean, I'd if like anyone to tell me that they were doing zooms without pajama bottoms or sweatpants. We were dressing from the waist up for whatever it was. And I think, you know, there's value in that. When you can't get toilet paper, suddenly everything else kind of falls away, right?

I mean, manicures are irrelevant. I lash extensions are irrelevant. Going to the movies is not important. What's really important is being able to have contact with your loved ones, making sure they're safe and comfortable, and being comfortable yourself. Look, when that happened, everybody was baking bread so much so that nobody could get flour.

That says something, bread is the ultimate comfort food, right? And it's the least expensive. It's been around for eons. So bread is like the grounding, all heart-ing, cozy food. And we went all the way back to that. So I think modern prairies is space to remind people of that cozy, basic,

wall-me, warm, those nostalgic feelings brought up to the current times, hence the modern. There's also a beautiful comparison to be made. Your modern prairie is this community for mature women who are looking at the next part of their life and thinking, what does this look like? And it was very similar for Laura. She wanted something different in that last half of her life. She was writing these books as a mature woman of a certain age.

And I think there's a really interesting parallel there. Did you think about that when you were launching? That's something that is kind of a universal experience for all women, I think. You guys will find as you age to where I am now. There's a, it's not a midlife crisis, it's sort of a, not even midlife. I mean, who lives to be a 116,

I'm in place. It's a midlife for assessment, right? Am I doing what brings me joy? Am I doing what brings me joy? Am I doing what makes me feel like I'm contributing the most? Am I forcing myself to do something I don't want to do? Laura definitely did that. It also grew, I think, for her based on historical research and my research, it grew out of a place of necessity too,

because the craft in the teens, 20s wiped out the entire family's finances. Atalora had the book, she had been writing it, and necessity put them in a position where she had to then actually make them sellable, which is why they became children's books or young adult books. So it was a combination of things, but I think it really, maybe not so intentionally, Laura probably blazed a trail into how to go through that kind of transition from, you know, farm wife with a true partnership with her husband, which was also very unusual for that

time. I mean, they were, they did not do anything without consulting one another. Nor did they tell each other what to do, which I thought was fascinating. They had a really modern relationship, Lauren Almanzo, Almanzo, actually. If anything, she was the one in charge, I think. Yes, I think so. And I think we should make the book people happy and call him by his real name. charge, I think. Yes, I think so. And I think we should make the book people happy and call him by his real name. Well, it's interesting to me, Melissa, when you say so much of modern prairie is prettiness because just when you said that so much of little house is prettiness,

right? Throughout all of the struggles she writes about, there's a focus on pleasing things, right? The pleasing went, how posaws scallops, the paper on the shelves and the sprigs of flowers and the buttons. Like there is a real focus on the details of prettiness throughout these horrible events. So that's an interesting sort of crossover that I hadn't that made me rethink sort of certain descriptions in the book.

Those may be the things that we focus on when things are hard. You know, let's look to that. And then again, if you go back to the books the way she wrote about food, food was like a religion, you know, um, and, and glorious. I mean, I remember reading those books when I was eight, nine years old and being hungry. And my mouth watering is I'm turning these pages and reading about, you know, maple candy in the snow and which I've I made this year for the first time. Oh how did it go? It was fascinating. It's taffy. It doesn't get I thought it would get like crunchy but it's taffy. It it it it hardens into like a almost like like a carmily like a maple caramel. It's good. You have to do it with butter, though. It has to be butter in maple syrup.

Would you ever, I don't know, I must have visited some of the Laura houses over the years. Is there any potential of modern prairie moving into these locations or what was that experience like of going to the houses? Funny that you bring that up because it hadn't even occurred to me to take Marbury. I mean, we're not freaking mortar of any kind yet. And you know, there may be a world where we collaborate with a specific museum to create

something for them through one of our makers. By the way, all of the people who make our products are women. Just saying, that's part of it. We're supporting female businesses. Also, that's actually really important aspect of this. I have visited them all. It has taken me a very long time. When I did the Little House musical, when I played, ma, when I put Caroline, we, if we were playing a city that was within two, three hours of a homestead, the whole company would get in a bus and we would all go. And so that was my first chance to see the smith

and plum creek and walnut grove. I did, we were nowhere near Mansfield, so I didn't get to go. We went to Mansfield, my husband and I went last year. We were doing a number of cross-country drives. And you're before last actually take that back. And I decided to go when they when they were closed for the day. So we went in just the two of us and they opened the museum and the

houses for us. And that property, not just because it's the most recent one in my memory, but that property more than any of them is, especially because that's where they're buried, and that's where Rose is buried. That place really got me, because you could really, that was their place. And, you know, the counters in the kitchen that he custom built because she was so tiny, it was just enchanting, and it felt incredibly special being there. And we were actually at a camp in the campground across the way. And there was a tornado warning.

And so we decided to drive to St. Louis in this insane storm. And it was very, I kept saying to Tim, my husband, can you imagine doing this in a wagon? I mean, we're in the cars blowing all over the highway and there's hail and, you know, tornadoes, God knows where it was pitch black, but just crazy weather. And all I could think was what those crossings must have been like for the Ingalls family, from South Dakota to Missouri to Florida to San Francisco to visit Rose. And here's a hoffness, I think, that also to that beauty that we have to tap into as well.

That was the thing, too, is, you know, I think one of the things that came out of the pandemic and the resurgence or re-appreciation of little houses are a reminder that if we can make it through that, we can make it through this. Everyone at all the houses loves you, by the way. Just to pass on a little, where your ears burning, your name was obviously came up frequently in a very genuine and loving way.

That's. No, everyone had such nice things to say about you. Well, that's good. That's, that's me. Me and I was in a good mood on the day. I, it would be terrible. I'd be such a mutely whipped to all those places and the juts don't like it. You were so.

No, it came up, it came up without us asking. I wasn't actually inquired or anything. It just came up and you know when you're out there, everybody there is very down to earth and genuine. So yeah, oh, 100%. There's no pretense. There's no, they just love the entire Ingalls experience, the family, Laura, and they are the keepers of the legacy.

I mean, I look at those guys and I feel like a little bit of a poser, you know, they're in it. They're touching her belongings on a daily basis, which actually when we were on tour with the musical, there was one, which place we went to, maybe it was to smat and they took me into a vault and they opened a drawer and pulled out one of her nightcowns and let me touch it and I just lost it. I just, I had to step away because I was afraid I would get tears on the nightcown and that would be bad.

So that's, I think that kind of, in a nutshell, those back to your question about how I feel about carrying this sort of mantle, I touch her neck down and I cry. So obviously there's a lot of weight there. Yeah. We heard the fiddle being played in that felt. Oh, please. I had Michael's fill for years, which I finally auctioned off.

One of the fiddles, there was a prop and I could barely contain myself. I'd open the case just to smell it. Do you have thoughts on Rose? I mean, we asked everyone what, because of course, the conspiracy did she write the books, but also Rose herself. It's a lot, but what are your thoughts on Rose? Do you have any? I think that based on all of the reading I've done in the research I've done, I think that

Rose's to Laura what Laura was to maw. This is like a generational evolution of rebellion that has passed on. And I think that as much as Laura sort of gave her mother fits in her wildness, Rose took it so much further. And some of it was by choice and some of it was just in her. I think from what I understand you know at that point in her life Laura in Mansfield had gone from being basically a washer woman doing other people's laundry to a very important member of society and a leader of the society and had reached this really interesting place in her life for the wild child she was to be someone

who was so concerned about what other people thought of her because she was so wildly uncomfortable with her daughter coming home with a woman, her pants wearing smoking divorced daughter, who really was living, her life is her completely authentic self and coming into this world where everything was very rigid and very, you know, where, Heraline had sort of that religious church-going fear of outsiders. Laura just didn't want anyone to know that she projected this image of who she was, and I don't think Rose fit into that. However, their relationship was so symbiotic. You know, their finances were in twine.

They were so in that. I think that they had, you know, a very complicated, other daughter relationship, which we can all relate to. If anybody can possibly unravel the complications of any mother-daughter relationship for me, I will give them a medal. It is what it is. That's why God blessed me with four sons. I do absolutely believe that Rose helped craft the books. I don't think she wrote them. I think she crafted them.

I think she did. I mean, if you read, hi, an air girl, it's incredibly unwieldy. And I don't think it would have sold back then. I think that the editors were right. They needed to find a market. I mean, people weren't spending money so it had to be something special.

And of course, making it something for children was entirely appropriate. And I think Rose really helped to do that and to take these things apart and put them back together. A hundred percent, I think she was an absolute ghost editor. I don't think she was a ghost writer. I think many of us owe a lot to Lauren Rose for being the trailblazers that they were.

What they did for female authors and what they did for women in general by telling their sides of those stories in that history is major. I don't know if we would have had a woman's voice back then, you know, if we would have been able to look back on a woman's voice, it had it not been for them. Melissa, we're so grateful.

Thank you. Thanks, you guys. I so appreciate it. This was fun. Is it a little so amazing? We had such a great time talking to her if a filled a few childhood dreams in that room. We hope you enjoyed this. If there is other guests we've talked to throughout the show that you'd want to hear an extended interview from, then tell us. Maybe we'll release more of these in the future.

This episode was produced by me, Emily Marinov, as well as Mary Doe and Shina Ozaki. Sound design and mixing was done by Amanda Bros. Smith. Our wonderful theme and additional music was composed by Elise McCoy. We are executive produced by Glennis McNickle, Chopiazza, Nikki Thor, and Allie Perry. Thank you as always to CDM Studios for recording this conversation. This is the conversation that first paired us with our Guardian Angel engineer, Kathleen.

We love you Kathleen. If you haven't been following us on social media, can you even call yourself a wilder fan? Get on there, people. Follow us on Instagram at Wilder underscore podcast and on TikTok at Wilder podcast. Thank you for listening. Sonora and I, Hartz, my culture podcast network, present, present, Princess of South Beach, Season 2. Did you miss me?

The new season of lies, scandals and skeletons in the closet. I am proud to take office as your first openly gay mayor. This season, it's all out in the open. Listen to Princess of Salvich on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm the Wizard of Oz, I'm the one making everything happen. Real housewife of Salt Lake City Star, Jen Shaw, is running the scam of the century. I remember one time, Stuart lost, like about 8 million. Jen was very upset and she came down to the office late the century. I remember one time Stuart lost like about 8 million.

General is very upset and she came down to the office late at night with Coach. Y'all are screaming at him. I am asking him where their money is. Listen to Queen of the Khan, season 4, the Unreal Housewife, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Out of the shadows is a podcast on America's immigration system told to the eyes of out radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Out of the shadows of the podcast on America's immigration system, told through the eyes of our Latino community. I didn't understand how difficult life was going to be being a doctor and a person. I mean, we seen a doctor in the age of 14.

I'm Patty Rodriguez. And I'm Eric Galindo. Follow us as we tell the incredible true story of a group of young people who took on the system and changed the course of history. Listen to Out of the Shadows Dreamers on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.