Wilder - BONUS: "Oh, that Nellie Oleson!" with Alison Anrgrim

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

Surprise! We’re back to share our extended interview with Alison Arngrim, aka everyone’s favorite mean girl: Nellie Oleson. She’s a powerhouse when it comes to keeping the Little House legacy alive, from her marathon re-read of the books on Facebook Live during the pandemic, to attending events at the Laura Ingalls Wilder homes and fan conventions across the country, to using her celebrity for meaningful activism. Beyond all that, she’s simply a delight and we hope you enjoy the interview!Read Alison Arngrim’s memoir, Confessions of a Prairie BitchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Paul Muldoon, a poet who over the past several years has had the good fortune to record hours of conversations with one of the world's greatest songwriters, Sir Paul McCartney. The result is our new podcast, McCartney, A Life in lyrics. Listen to McCartney, a life in lyrics on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 13 Days of Halloween Penance Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. If I am under arrest, you have to tell me what I'm charged with.

Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead To Me. Please, spend some kind of mistake. I'm not supposed to be here. How do you know? I'm innocent. Are any of us truly innocent? Primering October 19th, ending Halloween. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

get your podcasts. If you really want to know what's going on in this country, heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle. Hi, Jan here in Kansas City, Missouri. On the podcast, The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'll take calls live every week, elevating the voices of Americans

who are so important when it comes to who's in power and what gets done. My name is Venkat, I'm calling you for Atlanta Georgia. Listen to the Middle-Lit Jeremy Hopson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Emily. Hello, Glenis.

We're back. We're back. Happy fall. Yeah, it's funny to be talking for Wilder in the fall because it's not roadtrip season anymore. It's like, but it is, say it in your room, listen to podcasts, and I'll then maybe watch Little House on the Prairie on your TV season. It's definitely cozy season. I was just thinking it's a little over a year ago that we drove to Mansfield, Missouri for the Wilder Days festival. It is true. A year since

you heard Puzz Fiddle and your life has changed. A year since you heard pause fiddle and your life has changed. A year since I heard pause fiddle and we then subsequently went to Graceland. Made our pilgrimages. So we're dropping a surprise bonus episode because someone in the comments somewhere, maybe more than one person actually in various forms of request, asked us to all cap, release all the interviews, which I think is a solid request because we did so many amazing interviews for the podcast that we have like a wealth of bonus material. And this interview we did with Alzen Arngrim, who is the actress obviously, who played Nelly Olson in the television show, was I think one of our first interviews, wasn't it?

It was. It was kind of right after we got back from that Mansfield Road trip, which was our last trip. And we were starting to put all of our tape together and start collecting all the extra interviews we needed and we were started thinking about the TV show Allison's name had come up at so many of the sites that we knew that she was the first person we had to talk to people loved her every one of the houses everyone who'd worked with her everyone who'd met her raved about her which I'm not surprised by But she was just a delightful her raved about her, which I'm not surprised by. But she was just a delightful interview. We could have talked to her forever. I would just say, when we conducted these interviews, it wasn't with the idea that the full interview would be aired. So they are, while wonderful, you're getting a rough, you're getting a rough behind the scenes cut, which does not diminish from,

you know, the intelligence or charm or insight that Allison brings to this. And something audience should also know going into this is most of the cast of Little House Everett and Memoirs. Allison's memoir Confessions of a Prairie Bitch is, am I gonna offend? Everyone by saying it's the best one, it's very, very good. It's very good about her and about her time on Little House. And tells you a lot of things you wouldn't otherwise know. No, absolutely. It's so personal, it's so

gripping. It's so funny. And it's really intense. She talks about the sexual abuse. She suffered from a family member. And so keep that in mind if you're listening to this. We do touch on that in the interview. And if you haven't read Confessions of a Prairie Bitch, I would highly recommend listening to the audiobook because she reads it and it really is, I think I say at the beginning of this interview and when we first spoke to her, I had just finished listening to it and felt like I'd been with her. Like it's so wonderfully done and she's so wonderful and had so much to say, not just about the television show, but also about Laura Ingalls Wilder and her legacy and the real-life version, which if you've listened to the podcast, you've heard some of her insights on

that. But again, this is the full deep cut. Yeah, we hope you enjoy it and we've gotten a lot of messages from all of you about who you'd want to hear from. So maybe we'll do more of this. Everyone has gone off to new projects, but hopefully we'll be able to keep releasing these every month or so, because we definitely have plenty of amazing material from so many amazing, generous people. So thanks for listening and thank you everyone for your feedback and the reviews you're leaving on Apple. We're very grateful and continue to be very proud of this podcast. So proud, so happy with it. Excited to bring you guys more and be able to enjoy the episode. I'm Paul Muldin, a poet who over the past several years had the good fortune to spend time with one of the world's greatest songwriters, Sir Paul McCartney.

We talked through more than 150 tracks from McCartney's songbook, and while we did, we recorded our conversations. I mean the fact that I dreamed the song yesterday leads me to believe that it's not just quite as cut and dried as we think it is. And now you can listen to our conversations in our new podcast, McCartney, A Life in lyrics. It was like going back to an old snapshot album looking back on work. I hadn't thought much

about for quite a few years. Listen to McCartney, a life in lyrics on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What is this place? Wait, why my handcuffed? What am I doing here? 13 Days of Halloween Penance. Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio.

Where am I? Why, this is the Pendleton. All residents, please return to your habitations. Light stuff on your feet. You're new here, so I'll say it once. No talking. Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead to Me. Am I under arrest?

We know what can use that word. Can I leave of my own free will? Not at this time. So this is a prison then? No, it's a rehabilitation center. Premiering October 19th, ending Halloween. I'm gonna get out. And how may I ask, or are you going to do that?

Escape. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our first call is Mary in Lexington, Kentucky. Mary, welcome to the middle. Hello, and thanks for having me. If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle. Hi, my name is Vanket, I'm calling you for Atlanta Georgia.

On the new podcast, The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'm live every week taking your calls and focusing on Americans in the middle who are so important politically but are often ignored by the media. I did a lifetime democratic voter, however I was raised by moderate Republicans from Michigan. Creating space for a civil conversation about the most contentious issues we face, from climate change to artificial intelligence, from abortion rights to gun rights. I consider myself to be conservative physically but politically independent. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Allison, I'm Gloss.

Hey, Gloss. I'm so thrilled that you're here. I'm over the moon. I was re-listening to your book. I was listening to the audio version. So I feel like I've been living with you. Oh, do you like it? Oh my gosh.

Because it's like, when I wrote it, people read it and said, like, wow, it's like I can hear you in my head. God, I hope you're doing the audio book. I know I did the audio book. They went, yep, that's exactly what I thought it would sound like. I'm sure you hear this all the time. It was like tapped into some childhood part of my brain that had such a strong relationship with the show that it was both like eight year old me was listening to it.

And present day me was listening to it at the same time and it was really powerful. I am fascinated by so much about you and also obviously about your relationship to the show. But just to start, can you briefly walk through your origin backstory and how you came to acting and how you came to Little House? Well, I am a crazy extra star. My whole family weren't show business. I mean, literally even my aunt and uncle, my aunt was a soprano. My uncle played the violin. My mother was the voice of Casper, the friendly guest.

My father was managing Liberace. It was crazy. So everyone's in show business. So I started working on his about five, six years old commercials, little shows. I did a movie when I was 10 and the funny part is after I did the movie, I wasn't working a lot and my father's a manager sat me down and said, you know, you may never work again. Or you may never work to your adult. Or you might never work again at all.

We don't know. And then like six months later, I got a little less than pervert. I read for the part of Laura. I read for the part of Mary. I read for the part of Mary. Laura Ingles was like the search for Scarlet O'Hara for eight year olds. I mean, everyone, the world, but of course Melissa Gilbert nailed it. So I come back and there's this part of Nellie Olsen. I had not read the books.

I did not read the books till after I got the show. So I was clueless and I come in and I see this Nellie Olsen character. And I start reading this and that's when I turn to my father is like this girl's a total mm-hmm and I read it for him and he started laughing he said don't change it please put the pages down don't look at him go in and read it exactly like that and I did and there was Michael and I kept McCraying the producers and I read it and he laughed hysterically and then they said could you do that one part again and and I go to the child actor, I said, yes, what do you want me to change? And they said, nothing is written about the house again.

Because the my home speech from the episode Country Girls. And I read it again and they laughed their heads off. And I was hired immediately. Which is, is that a compliment to my acting or to say something about my personality? I have no idea. It's amazing to me when you said the my home speech. I haven't seen that episode in years and I know precisely what you were talking about. Right.

It's in your head. Yeah, because it's like the best thing. There's this one joke in the my home speech. I do not know that every 11-year-old got the joke. Maybe that's because I got the joke and I played it for that. We have three sets of dishes. One for every day, one for Sunday, and one for when someone very special and important comes to visit, which we have never even used yet. Hi, you live in Walnut Grove, the queen ain't coming,

you don't know anybody. Aspirational dishes in Walnut Grove, Minnesota. This leads into, I think, a much broader question. yeah, I was, yeah. I was, yeah, I was, yeah. I was, yeah, I was, yeah. I was, yeah, I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah.

I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah.

I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. I was, yeah. to say, I mean, I literally wake up in the middle of the night and go, somebody somewhere is watching us the parade right now. It's literally because it's in every country on earth. It's been dubbed into every language. There's DVDs in every language.

It's bananas. And I've met people from like every country on earth who are like, oh, yeah, I've seen every episode. It was the guy near Sri Lanka. They only got little house in the prairie and lost in space. I said, how confused about America? Were you? I've been asked this about a million times and we've tried to figure it out. And all of us in the show are like, why? Why? I think that the

problems of the Ingalls are universal. The majority of people on earth don't actually have very much money. And the Ingalls live in like a two-room house with a whole bunch of kids and worry if they're going to make it through the week. That's really how probably 80-90% of humans on the planet are living in a tiny place with a lot of children wondering if they'll have enough to eat. And this is how people, real people, are living. And there's a rich family in town at the store who give them a hard time. And there's always a crop failure, a blizzard or locus. And they cling together and make it through. That's reality. The Dallas, the

Dynastie, the fabulous shows where, was it friends with these people like have no jobs and have three bedroom apartments in New York? They didn't know. That doesn't really happen for maybe a tiny segment of humanity, whereas Little House people tune in and go, yeah, that's pretty much it. When you look at the fact that the books got published at the height of the Great Depression, so people were like, oh, it was worse for the Ingalls. No matter how bad things are in the Depression,

the Ingalls have it worse, and they're muddling through because there was a recession in the 1870s when that took place. America was having recession and people were having a terrible time. So then the books come out in the 1930s and when does the show come out? 74. Remember Whip inflation now in gas rationing and you could buy meat like every other day, whatever the heck that it was a mess. We were having a terrible recession. And suddenly, here's Charles Engelsing. The slate pencils up to two pennies. Oh, man, what are we going to do? Genius. And here we are. Get wind at the show, like explode in popularity again for the 8,000th time, the pandemic. We have an episode called plague and an episode called quarantine, the anthrax,

and all of us in the show were hearing from people in Facebook and email it going, I had no idea. It was a huge connection with the pandemic as people were home and they were frightened and they said, I need something familiar and here it was and here were the angles dealing with terrible and curable diseases. So I think it's that these are the problems that people really deal with. And it's a very emotional issue. I always joke about how the French love it because Charles Incles, he cries. It's a beautiful, it's an emotional show. It taps right into that. And

people act like it's really, it's really intense. I was really struck by your anecdote in the book about being at a school function with Catherine McGregor and someone coming off behind you and kicking you. And then you're opening anecdote about being at a fanfare and someone walking up who I sounded like they're about my age and saying, I forgive you. And the intensity of that connection must be overwhelming. It's mind blowing. I mean, we get the people who come for autographs and sometimes they cry because it's so intense

to meet the person that you've grown up watching. I was just a Knoxville tennis-use fanboy convention and it was Melissa Gilbert Karen Grassley and me. So you can imagine how bananas people went and they were up on these huge things and the line comes up to me. And so people come up and I say, yes, you come around, get a picture.

And we've had this before, like I remember my husband, Bob was with me during one thing where we'd have people start shaking. And I'd go put my arm around from the photo and they burst into tears. We'd have to like get them together and like wait a minute for them. So we had cryers and they all cried, of course,

when they saw mock, Karen, they all cried at Karen's table. I had Kleenex at my table because we're getting cryers and they all cried, of course, when they saw mock care at the all credit care and stable. I had clinics at my table because we're getting cryers and I of course, we tease them and make to get them laughing because they would come up and they go, oh, what's how many is this? You are number four. You were the fourth cryer of the morning. Wow. It's like, come on, we got clinics.

Come on. Do you think? And so yeah, we talked about how many cryers we got today. Who gets the strongest reaction from the fans, do you think? I know Melissa Gilbert, obviously it's Laura. She'd people just go into a coma at the website. She was like, oh my God, Laura,

they just flip out completely. A lot of people don't think they're gonna be emotional and then they meet Ma and that voice and she sounds the same and she's so sweet. It's her. I've seen people really lose it over Charlotte Stewart, Miss Beatle. gonna be emotional then they meet Ma and that voice and she sounds the same and she's so sweet. I've seen people really lose it over Charlotte Stewart and Miss Beel. We were at an event and they were getting autographs. Charlotte was practically doing therapy. I'm signing autographs. They turn around and she's holding this guy's hand going, yes, I understand. He's like sobbing his therapist. I'm like, what is going

on over there? She's like, it's like out of control. And then it's weird because, you know, she was in David Lynch's eraser head and on twin peaks and she was in trimmers. So she had all the horror people and like the twin peaks people coming and a little husband was like, it's crazy. I get Obviously an extremely strong reaction. I get a very different reaction. We all have our own like different ones. And the women who are still in love with El Manzo, poor Dean Butler, he blushes, you know, he blushes. The women come up and go, he's still so handsome. And he's like, like going great, right?

So there's still a love with him. So that's a whole world. That kind of ties into something I found really powerful about the book. And you're writing about your upbringing and the abuse at the hands of your brother. And I was born in 74 the year little house came out. And so when you were writing about how in your childhood the abs and sort of ABC after

school specials or a language around traumatic experiences for children, I was really struck by how in the show you were doing, some of the craziest storylines in Little House that I think people mock, you know, it really goes what feels like a little off the rails in terms of narrative from time to time, but then I was listening to your book. I thought, oh, but in those episodes, it is really providing, you know, an experience for kids who might not have seen those experiences anywhere else on TV. Did that ever strike you as sort of an amazing thing that you're participating in a show that was sort of providing

a language or an experience for kids that wouldn't have otherwise had access to it. Well, we did cover everything. It was so weird because okay, we're doing the 1800s or doing lore, but it's the 1970s and the Norman Lear shows are on and there's all this cutting-edge television talking about racism, sexism, the women's movement, the drug problem, all this stuff is happening. So we're actually technically doing it, but because it's the 1870s, it's going like whoosh over the heads of anyone who would object and other people are going yes Thank God they're covering us the civil war soldier who comes back and he has PTSD or shell shocks to be then and he's addicted to Morafi. This is the same year when Vietnam veterans were coming home

Addicted to heroin and here we have a civil war soldier with the morafi. They did like hello How many people were living that episode, the poor, the mother. So we were doing these episodes. The women are what the right to own property. We did all these episodes. We had episodes about alcoholism, about drugs, and even Albert, the teenage, the good boy from the good family going out on drugs. This is what people were experiencing.

We were showing all of these things. We had child abuse, we had special abuse. And of course, the Sylvia episode, or as people do refer to it, clown rape. I'm not laughing because it's funny, but that is the way people refer to it. It's horrifying. It's a very, very disturbing episode. But again, a real thing happens. And happened in the 1800s because people would say, oh, back in those days, oh, back in

those days, all the same things happened, and things were terrible too. They were people dealt with it. And that's why when you read, like, Pioneer Girl, Laura's Real Autobiography and see the little stories that they said, maybe not put that in Banks of Plum Creek, things that don't make it into the children's books, you go, Whoa, yikes. And of course, she was dealing with the same kind of harassment and threat of molestation and terrible things happening around her. And so that's real life.

And we did work all those things out. And a lot of things were covered on 1970s, just like family or all in the family or mod, we were sneaking them in too, but everybody was in bonnet. So it was somehow safe and okay. And of course, Pa and Ma were there to help you deal with it. Yeah, the line you said, I think, is something long lines of Michael Landon flushed out characters that Laura only implied in the book when you read Prairie Fires or, as you say, Pioneer Girl, this idea that she couldn't look some of her traumatic experiences in the book when you read Prairie Fires, or as you say, Pioneer Girl, this idea that she couldn't look some of her traumatic experiences in the face,

and the show was able to depict them. Well, in the books, the Ingalls don't have a son, and there's no baby who dies. That doesn't happen in the books. It happens in the show, but it happens in real life. But the family was so traumatized by the death of the little boy that they did not talk about it. So all this stuff in the books is like, whoa, so then when they complain on the show, like, on the show, will you change it?

Have you read the books? The timelines are different. Then when you read the real timelines, and stuff she really went through, it's like, ah, so, but yeah, they could not bring themselves to talk about the poor child. So she didn't do that in the books, never spoke of it. And then in the TV show, of course, Michael said, what, that's like the greatest episode ever. Of course, we're going to do that. And then of course, Laura runs away to a mountain.

How she found a mountain in Minnesota. I only say she ran across four states to like Colorado or something. I don't know. She finds a mount, a big mountain at that. And then at the top of the mountain, is Ernest Borgdine? Who's apparently God? And that was my, and it's one of the greatest episodes ever made. It's one of the favorite episodes. It's Melissa's favorite episode. It is one of the best episodes ever of like anything and it is genius and it totally works. That is always in my favorite episode. I watched it not long ago.

To remind myself, the Lord is my favorite. I would pay for a little house series of you doing the voiceover of like verbally annotating the entire series as we go. Speaking of the books, which you clearly are very knowledgeable about, when did you come to the book? Well, all of us in the show did the, I guess I better get the book, or Charlotte said she got a book at a rummage sale, and I think it was like the long winter,

one of the really hard ones. She said, I started reading this book and by page three, Mary is blind and the dog dies. I said, what am I reading? This is awful. I'm a wet of hairs, what happened. And then like years later, I remember going back and rereading plum creek and the first one, the house and the big woods go, oh okay these are pretty good. And then of course the pandemic had. And I said I haven't read those things in years. And I thought well I'm at home, everything I was doing was canceled.

I'm like, okay, I'm here for the duration. Clearly, I need to do something interesting. And I thought, well, go back, I have time. I'll go read the little house books. And I just take a workshop where this great acting teacher said, you know, people don't read aloud enough at home. It's really good diction and training. He said, but as an actor, he said,

you're sitting around the house. Read a magazine, out loud, read to the cat. It's really good diction and training. He said, as an actor, he said, he's sitting around the house, read a magazine out loud, read to the cat. It's really good for you. And then I went, everyone else is bored out of their minds. I'll go on Facebook live and we'll all read them. So I put on a bonnet, gone on Facebook and say, okay guys, the woman wrote nine books and I will read them all starting with book one page over two. We can keep this going as long as it takes. And I read the little house books every freaking day. I read all nine books. I read books about Laura other books by Laura books all the roses stuff all the um, um, Bill Anderson stuff about Laura the history. I actually read Pioneer Girl with the footnotes

life. That took a while. I did a little house in Ozarks, Laura Ingalls articles that she wrote for the Missouri Worldless of the Papers. That was really fascinating because it's 1916 through like 1921. So she's talking about, oh, the Spanish flu pandemic and World War One and women getting the vote. It's like, what? That mind below. So we're reading that a few cast members read, stepped in and read. Dean Butler, of course, said, I got to do the long winter. It's like, oh, man, so save the town.

It's my book. So he read the long winter. And I completed 600 readings. And then I read the blue loves books again. So I read them twice, you know, and we just finished recently 600, 600 readings. And I said, I guys, I'm taking a break at 600. I'll be back. But I think 600, we can have a stopping point. But a lot of people said it really got them through the pandemic. I got a commemorative thing from my local senator for raising morale during the pandemic, exploring the works of law Ingalls' wilder, increasing literacy rates, et cetera, et cetera.

Was it intense for you to be reading these books by a woman who's act of her writing her life down, it has such a huge impact on your life? I mean, you are part of her legacy, and she is so much of your history. It's, I wonder what that experience was like, or if that occurred to you while you were doing it? Yeah, and always just, I mean, I've been to Nellie's grave

because there were three different people that made up Nellie Olson. There's Nellie Owens, who's buried in Tillamook, and I've been to my grave with Nellie Owens' curry. It's like early weird. I was like, thank you. Thank you for being a bitch, so I could have a career. So that was so weird. But then

Genevieve masters and Stella Gilbert later were all kind of, it took three people to be as mean as me. So it's very bizarre. And the pressure, I mean, it's something Melissa's talked about. We've talked about the massive psychic weight and pressure that Melissa Gilbert has had to live with being Lori Ingalls. That her brains have not just run out for years. I don't know how she stood it. It was very hard for she didn't visit the sites for a really long time. So yeah, it's been really heavy for, and it is weird for me to read these books. And then especially in the reading like the stuff with the real stories, the behind-the-scenes stories, that this really happened to this woman. And she wrote this stuff, and then it blew up, which she couldn't believe.

And then that's a TV show she never anticipated. And then the TV show, you know, a lot of shows came out in 1974. There was a lot of things on TV, actually, in the 1970s, that were really huge. That Arnchen reruns are out on DVD and people are not watching now that were huge at the time and now it's like Oh, yeah, that was on but little house in the prairie is it what in the heck so it's really weird for all of us But yes, that's why when I read the and then now having read them allowed twice it was surreal But yeah, there is this whole weird connection. That's what I've always been, I like history. I've always been fasted with history. So then to be tied

into history in this really weird way and learn everything I could learn about the real Mellie and Genevieve and Stella. So for all of us on the Shenoui, we're playing people who lived. I imagine you get this from fans. It's this nice, comforting thing to know that many of you are still in touch with each other. And reading about you, in particular, describing the set, which at least felt to me like it became a safe space for you. And your friendship with Melissa Gilbert and your impression of her was wonderful.

I mean, your impressions are wonderful. I mean your impressions are wonderful. They're really, you can hear it so clearly. She told me when she, I said her early copy of the book because she gave me a blur, but everything, she said when she read the blur, I said she could fit my person's shirt way out as she had to, she said she had to put the book down because she went, you said she'd like completely lost and gaffed like almost P. She was like, is that yeah, that was like accurate. The thing I have to say, I love the most was, and I know you get asked all the time about Michael Landon who I obviously want to talk about in a minute, but I thought it was really wonderful when you said you didn't know if he loved you,

but he respected you. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. You say that, you know, none of you are in jail or convicted and even when you talk now about the psychic weight of carrying these characters and the success of the show attributing it that and how you shared dressing rooms but everyone shared dressing rooms and you were expected to be on time. The manner with which you described this whole experience feels that it was not just positive, but sort of strengthening. Oh, God, yeah. It was incredible because, okay,

when you're a teenager, things like getting up early in the morning and having discipline, not so much. And when you're a teenager, you have all this angst and anger and you don't want to be told what to do. And then in my case, having lived through abuse and bullying, there's all this rage. I mean, that's the biggest problem for people who are traumatized, who are

physically sexually abused, is what do you do with all this anger? It's a sitting there eating you up, but you got to dump it somewhere. And so here I am on this show where people quite nice to me and that feel quite safe. And I have this character who can scream and go, breathe in. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, because you know, I was really into punk rock and going to the bands and everything. I probably would have cut my hair short, died at green and gotten at least one piercing somewhere in my face. But I was like, I gotta be work on Monday. So there was always like, gotta get a work man. Whatever insane ideas I might have had or crazy things going on. Yes, but we're going to work on Monday. We have to get a bit of shit. So I got to get a bed now. You need a guy's party. I got to go. So I got to get a bed

because I got to get up at like four in the morning. And there was a structure. And I knew I was going to see these people. And I knew what was going to happen. And I knew there's going to be there. And I had a job. And it was like, yes, you are performing a function that is needed that people need you to do. And you have responsibility. It was an enormous amount of responsibility. And I said, poor Melissa, she's like, you know, nine carrying the show. She's responsible for the employment of like 400 people.

That was kind of a lot of pressure. But we were all held responsible that we needed to do our job. And I also had the marvelous advantage of, I got paid, which is like, yeah, of course, but a lot of teenage, a lot of child actors, the money, they never saw their money. There were even a few kids on the show where the parents says,

we covered that money, you're supposed to have a trust fund. So I had a checking account of 13. So I was responsible, I had a job, I 13. So I was response to my hat of job. I got paid to do my job. I saw the money from the job and I also saw all the expenses related to the job. And so there was a level of adult responsibility and learning about money and business

and learning about show business and learning about what goes on on a set and how to deal with office politics. Yeah, and a lot of adult behavior. I mean, you just describe a complicated world in which you both feel very safe, but are exposed to a lot of adult behavior and that you write and have spoken about how close you and Alyssa Gilbert are. And yet, you're playing foes on screen.

Was that ever confusing as a kid or was it fun? Oh, it was so much fun. Well, I said the book to one point, it was like in a therapy with bataka bats, you get out all the hostilities. We thought it was so funny, because we could bonded right away. And then the idea that regularly every few episodes

we'd hit each other in the face was like, it was awesome. And it was funny, because like the very first fight scene, they were very careful. There was a stunt girl to do one of the falls so I wouldn't hit my head. But like after that, they went, and we pretty much were choreographic our own fights,

and they just did need stunts for that. The mud fights, all of us, they're just stuck at that. The famous mud fight, they're like, yeah, you guys got this, whatever. And they just like, do, do, do, do whatever the hell you wanna do. And we did, and we had so much fun. and we thought it was so funny to play these mortal enemies and do all this terrible stuff But it was weird because they they seem to be saying things and she's crying And we're going out for slurpees later at 7-11. It's like so weird

Slurkey's later at 7-11, it's like so weird. I'm Paul Mulden, a poet who over the past several years had the good fortune to spend time with one of the world's greatest songwriters, Sir Paul McCartney. We talked through more than 150 tracks from McCartney's songbook, and while we did, we recorded our conversations. And now you can listen to our conversations in our new podcast, McCartney, a Life in lyrics. It was like going back to an old snapshot album looking back on work I hadn't thought much about for quite a few years. Listen to McCartney, a Life in lyrics on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What is this place? Wait, why my handcuffed? What am I doing here?

13 days of Halloween, Penance. Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. Where am I? Why, this is the Pendleton. All residents, please return to your habitations. Light up on your feet! You're new here, so I'll say it once. No talking. Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead to Me. Am I under arrest?

We don't like to use that word. Can I leave of my own free will? Not at this time. So this is a prison then? No, it's a rehabilitation center. Premiering October 19th, ending Halloween. I'm gonna get out. And how may I ask for you going to do that?

Escape. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our first call is Mary in Lexington, Kentucky. Mary, welcome to the middle. Hello, and thanks for having me. If you really want to know what's going on in this country, heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes

and listen to the middle. Hi, my name is Venkat. I'm calling you for Atlanta Georgia. On the new podcast The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'm live every week taking your calls and focusing on Americans in the middle who are so important politically but are often ignored by the media. I did a lifetime democratic voter, however I was raised by moderate Republicans from Michigan. Creating space for a civil conversation about the most contentious issues we face, from

climate change to artificial intelligence from abortion rights to gun rights. I consider myself to be conservative, cis-colled, but politically independent. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How did you carry the negative response to Nelly in real life? it feels like it must have been overwhelming. It was really bizarre, but I'm weird. I have a very warpsence of humor, as you may have noticed, having read my book. And I find it's a great survival mechanism.

One of my therapists, one student, we're talking about that, I said, well, isn't humor just a defense mechanism? And she said, yeah, who the hell ever said you're not allowed to defend yourself? So, it's like, yeah, it's a good defense mechanism. It she said, yeah, who the hell ever said you're not allowed to defend yourself. So it's like, it's a good defense mechanism. Great. Go with that. See, yeah, I know having a warp sense of humor is good. So I have a very peculiar sense of humor. And I also always like to villain. So I talked about that. I would watch the movies as a kid is like Captain Hook. Yeah, cool, man. And I like to villains. Oh, God, I live in some price, my hero of in some price. And even now, Sir Anthony Haw. And I like to villains. Oh, God, I live in some price, my hero,

I'm in some price. And even now, sure, Anthony Hopkins, I adore villains and things. So being a villain, I had a different attitude of us. Like, yay, the villain. So that was a badge of honor that was cool. Did you ever go through a period? I mean, you do, I want to end a minute talk

about all of your advocacy work, but just before we get to that, did you ever try and distance yourself from Nellie with did you go through a period of time where you're like, I want to in a minute talk about all of your advocacy work, but just before we get to that, did you ever try and distance yourself from Nelly with did you go through a period of time where you're like, I want nothing to do with the idea of Nelly Olson, I'm my own person, because you seem now to have such a close relationship with the fan base.

We heard on our trip over and over again, how much people adore you. You personally, we heard. I think so. We heard pretty much. Yes, but Olson, we heard pretty consists like of you. This is obviously like competition, but we heard about much. Yes, but Alison, we heard pretty consists of you. This is obviously a competition, but we heard about you consistently over and over again

from everyone at all of the sites. So I'm, but I wonder like was there to be a child star so strongly associated with one character, did you go through a period where you're like, I'm not really. Oh God, yeah, got me away from them. But brief, it was like, it was right after the show in the 80s.

So like I talked about the book. In the 80s, we were all supposed to be beautiful and sexy. It was all like the sex comedies and the borkies and the Joe. And as I said, every part I was offered in my early 20s was a cheerleader naked or dead or a combination of all three. And he just didn't work for me. So there was a, and there's a million bikini photos and posters and swimsuit photos out there. And the fans are all finding them now. Somebody in Facebook just the other day went, what the heck is this? And put up like all my swimsuit pictures on.

Hi. So there was this whole campaign with my management and everyone, Dave, Dave, where's management? We are young, beautiful, modern sexy women. We are not children anymore. We've all grown up or we're off the show. We don't live in the 1800s. We don't wear bustles.

We can be on dynasty and hotel and fantasy island. Look at us. So get out that swimsuit girls and take those pictures. So yeah, we're doing that. And which was like fun, you know, sort of. But yeah, there was a period. It was like, how do we make this stop? Because I want to work and be play different parts. And then there were times where it was a period was like, how do we make the stop? Because I want to work and be play different parts.

And then there were times where it was just kind of like, because it was so never-ending. It was like every single day. And it was like, God, it's like going to stop anytime soon. Maybe? No escape. And it's also Little House Gets mentioned in other books and TV shows and movies, so there's like a no escape and To the point where you can okay the movie network It's in the movie network Fade out of way so I that was I was like

15 60 and I read with friends and we went to see network and I'm thinking la la la la la I am not doing anything to do with the last of the bridge day. I'm out with my friends I see normal person and there's a scene where the woman is complaining about their reality show, about the revolutionary group. And she said, and the opposite, and the Monday night football, the other channel, and little house on the dam prairie, and my friends will go, ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,

and then like slumping down, and I'm like, it's just like, no, I was reading a book the other night. And it was like, just something that, well, you know, like the Millie Olsen curls. And I'm like like, yeah, there's just never just no escape. I can't like go anywhere where it's not there. And so at some point in the eight late eighties and especially early nineties because there was a big another wave because we had the VH. I think it was the DVDs came out in the nineties and all hellborkles and we had more cable, we had more Nickelodeon and stuff. At some point it was the can't beat them, join them thing, finally kicked in.

It's like, what the hell? What am I gonna do? And I realize also, because I look kind of weirdly the same. It's the bone structure. I never got a nose job, and this is kind of still, it's the, and a lot of people say,

well, you look the same, and I go, oh, thank you. And at some point, it was like, can't beat them, join them. And I also said, so was I said, well, okay, I would have to literally have massive plastic surgery die my hair and move to a country where the show isn't shown. And I don't know what country that is because I'm getting mail from Russia and China now. So I don't know where they're not showing this. We're somewhat isn't going to go anywhere. It's in. So I don't know where they're not showing this. We're somewhat isn't going to go anywhere. It's good for us to do that. So there's no getting around it.

So it's like, well, what are you going to do? You're going to spend your whole life. And I also saw all the interviews with the many, many, many celebrities who try to get away from their old show. So they have to spend a portion of the interview saying, no, I don't want to talk about the show that I was on or that character. Now, how many minutes then, how many interviews a day you do?

So how many minutes of each interview, so times a day, multiply by, let's say, how many tic-tac-tac-tac, how many hours or days out of the year, you have to spend saying, please don't talk about the thing. That's a lot of time. And it doesn't work because all of these people where they said, I don't want to talk about

you, then everybody still did. So I'm like, so you can waste your breath and your energy, futilely begging people to stop talking about the elephant in the room, or you can just go, yes, it is an elephant. And live a damn life. talking about the elephant in the room, or you can just go, yes, it is an elephant. And, believe, I just took the damn life. Well, speaking, I mean, it's going to your advocacy now. It's like you didn't just,

you can't beat him, join him. You have leveraged a character with fewer demon qualities until you're most of all, into a power of good. How did the advocacy begin? I remember, I mean, as I said, I was born the year a little house came out and I remember hearing about AIDS

through a lot of your conversations around. Yeah, so I mean, that's very much in my memory of thinking about you culturally. So I'm wondering, how did you move into that? During the show, when I was still really young, it was always like toys for tauts and telephone. I was in the things you did. And Easter seals in the March of Dimes.

But the phone bag, all the celebrities, you know, Jamie Fowar, we were like, I don't know, I got to tell you. You did for, and you all the whole gang, and you dance at the phones and stuff. During the show, I started going to special Olympics, the big summer games at UCLA, and I loved it. I stayed the whole weekend. It was like a blast. So I was encouraged to do so mostly for press. They tested it, but I liked it. So I did all

the charity things. I was like, so I went to all the charity things. And then when Steve Tracy played Percival Colesum, I'm sick. What do you mean you're sick? Sick how? And we had to play 20 questions. And then he finally comes out that he has AIDS and this is 85. There's there's nothing and he was on an experimental drug which incidentally involved Inter-Muscle and he had to do injections himself and do his muscles and thighs really bad and a hurt And I said, well, it's gonna work and he he said, no, it's too late to save me, but I'm thinking they might develop a cure after I'm dead. So I'm doing this like crap.

So I signed up at AIDS Project Los Angeles and in hopes of helping Steve. And then I also saw he had resources. His family stood by him. His friends stood by him. He had research. Other people didn't. And so I went to APLA to try to help people

They went up on the hotline and I really took to it and that was the crazy thing Then there were all these people who weren't gonna read the brochure Refusing to have people come speak on aids at their business at their school Oh, it's the woman from Little House on the Prairie that's okay then Why don't you get a take medical advice from Nelly also? Yes. And I went, okay, this is crazy. But they're willing to listen to me. I guess, I guess I'm doing this then. And then it's just escalated. And what I found is, if you're famous like even this much, you can do quite a bit. I always shop when famous people don't do more. I'm like, seriously, you're just going TV and say, plant a tree. And like, you know,

people will be planting trees. It's like, really, you're just going TV and say, Planetary. And like, you know, people will be planning trees. It's like, really, you have a pulpit you can use. This is very quick and fun, which is what episodes you hear about the most and what was your favorite episode of the show? I always say, it's the favorite episode. I remember Dean Butler going, no, it's your favorite episode. I go, what is it? If you like, it's the Nelly fan favorite episode. Because he's like, no, he's the Hello, hello, the episode that I marry

a lore, what that's people's favorite episode Bunny where I go down the hill in the wheelchair my mother watched that episode with me and she goes Laura Ingalls is so mean and awful and it was the first time Anybody had ever said anything critical about the lore and I was like, but no, but no, but that stands out in my mind because my mother was very on your side in that episode But I did pretend to be paralyzed and ruin everyone's life Everyone talks about I mean I you must know this but that's the episode we heard about the most on the on the road also in most episodes Nelly does things to ruin Laura's life and make her miserable But in Bunnies the only episode Nie's insane behavior actually impacts everyone's

up. Doc Baker's got, I don't know what's wrong with her. He's tempted out. He cannot fix her. And he's being told he's incompetent. He has failed because he cannot fix and he does not know what the hell's going on. Charles Ingalls has to drop what he's doing and stop work to go fix up a wheelchair for her.

He has other things to do. Suddenly, he's having to get her a wheelchair. Nells, we saw Richard Bullman, sir, also crying in the storage room with Laura and Pa, come in to talk to Nell. He's crying. Does he think his daughter is crippled for life? Mrs. Wilson has a complete meltdown,

a complete nervous breakdown. She's never gonna be okay. That's also why Nell's crazy, like my wife is not gonna recover from this. So now I've hurt both my parents. I've hurt Doc Baker. I've hurt Charles. His beetle is having to prepare the lessons for Laura to take home. And then Laura's homework and whole school trip and and Ma was freaking out. And she and Charles are fighting about Laura coming to take care of me.

So it's now impacted their marriage. It's impacted their relationship with Ma. The Reverend Olden has to drop what he's doing to come over and counsel Mrs. Olson, the blacksmith. We don't even see him. But at one point they say, yes, though the horse it ran back, the blacksmith, the door flore, he knows. So he's now complicit in hiding this horse

for Mrs. Olson, the blacksmith has been dragged into this bullsh**t that Nelly also does do. So literally everyone's at the teacher, the reverend, the doctor, the freaking blacksmith. All of these people have been dragged unwillingly, unknowingly into Nelly's drama because she decided that this boy she likes who has absolutely no interest in her whatsoever, but she's decided that she's mad, that he's paying attention to Laura, so she's just going to ruin everyone's life and doesn't care about the consequences of all of these people. She's now dragged into it and as the audacity just took their ways, poking her with the needle, now I can't see on my

legs and she's like bad eyes, she's like, oh, oh, wait, no, I felt nothing. And like, oh, oh, I'm so tired. Oh, let me lie back here. Good God. So yes, she has a comma. She has a comma. Connected to this, loosely, is, why do you think your ungood terms with so many of your co-stars this many years later?

It's striking to me that you all seem to be still friendly and connected and feel fondly for each other. For the most part, most of the people who worked at Blasapro were really nice people generally. And then there was this kind of like I said, demilitarized zone. Like, okay, look, we're at work, whatever the hell you people were fighting about. We don't care. Just get it all with them. So there was that, that's what. And then over the years, we've all kind of gone, well, I guess this is it. We did this thing. And I guess we're all in this boat here.

Somebody asked me this and how many people from Little House do you have on speed dial on your phone? And it was like 14. So yeah, yeah, we kind of hang out. And then with all the cookie autograph shows and events, you know the 50th of 50th anniversary is coming. Ah, that's going to be chaos. Wallet grows having a thing, see me valleys having a thing, everybody's having a thing.

So some of these autograph shows and things I've gotten to be kind of good, some of these events. Oddly, it was Kevin Hagen and Deb's Greer, Dr. Baker and the Reverend, who were going out to one of the grove and places quite early on in the 80s. So I sort of followed them, really. I enjoyed going to these things, and then other people started going, what? Now it's at the point I did this, signed up for this crazy event in Macon, Missouri, that suddenly I have Charlotte and Pat Labrato, who must be Atlantic, are calling.

It's just good. I don't know. I haven't been there yet. And they're like, Alison's doing it. They're all calling us at a good gig. Let's call Alison. So I'm like, I don't look at me, man, but it sure did.

It was a really good gig. So they're like, I'm going back. And now the Walton's, the Walton's are all doing the Macon, Missouri Pickersmart. We're doing me and, oh gosh, I think a bunch of forgetters going Dean Pat Charlotte, we're all going to the full Pickersmart now in Lincoln, Illinois, but the entire Walton's cast are doing the full Pickersmart in Macon because I did it and they buried it was fun. So now the whole Walton's are going, they're playing copycat now.

So everyone's kind of like now calling each other, hey, have you heard about this thing? Is that fun? Should I go? Should I go? And then the 50th is coming. So we're all getting on the bandwagon for that. Does it ever make you sad that Michael and Ann is not around to witness the longevity or would he have enjoyed it? And oh, yeah, yeah.

Because he, as I've talked about, was the only one who knew. Dean Butler has talked about this, Melissa Gilbert has talked about this, everyone has talked about this, that at some point or another, he said, you know, everyone's going to be watching these shows long after we're all gone. He said long after I'm dead, it was like this prophetic thing, that these shows are meant. And every when he said it to him, yeah, right, oh man.

And like, didn't believe him when, that's a nice idea, but, oh man. And like didn't believe him when, uh, that's a nice idea. But it's crazy. And here we all are. He knew nobody else. The network certainly didn't. B.C. was like, what that's happened. They didn't get people did not know. And we were actors.

We're like, well, this is a good job. And then you know, we'll get another job. La la la la la. We didn't get Michael God. He said, no, this thing. This is just going to go on forever. They're going to be God, he said no this thing. It's just gonna go on forever. They're gonna be friends forever. And he was right.

He's right, he's always right. First of all, this was such a joy. Thank you so much. Thank you. I mean, truly, this was such a pleasure. This episode was produced by me, Emily Marinoff, as well as Mary Doe and Shina Ozaki. Sound design and mixing was done by Amanda Rose Smith. Our wonderful theme and additional music was composed by Elise McCoy.

We are executive produced by Glennis McNichol, Chopiazzazza, Nikki Eator, and Ali Perry. If you haven't been following us on social media, can you even call yourself a wilder fan? Get on there people, follow us on Instagram at Wilder underscore podcast and on TikTok at Wilder podcast. On Paul Muldoon, a poet who over the past several years has had the good fortune to record ours of conversations with one of the world's greatest songwriters, Sir Paul McCartney. The result is our new podcast, McCartney, A Life in lyrics.

Listen to McCartney, A Life in lyrics on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 13 days of Halloween penance season four of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. If I am under arrest you have to tell me what I'm charged with. Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead To Me. Please, you've been some kind of mistake. I'm not supposed to be here. How do you know? I'm innocent. Are any of us truly innocent? From hearing October 19th, ending Halloween. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you really want to know what's

going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle. Hi, Jan here in Kansas City, Missouri. On the podcast, the middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'll take calls live every week, elevating the voices of Americans who are so important when it comes to who's in power and what gets done. My name is Venkat, I'm calling you for Atlanta Georgia. Listen to the middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHe radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.