Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Carol Burnett

Episode Date: June 6, 2023

On the season finale of Wiser Than Me, Julia sits down in person with 90-year-old groundbreaking actress, comedian, and writer Carol Burnett. Carol tells Julia how she learned to accept rejection, what Lucille Ball taught her about being a boss, and how a spontaneous ride on a beer truck led to her landing a CBS special with Julie Andrews. And Carol gives Julia a compliment that makes Julia cry, which leads to a touching conversation between Julia and her mom Judith.    Follow Julia on Instagram and Twitter @officialjld. Keep up with Carol @iamcarolburnett on Twitter and @itscarolburnett on Instagram. Watch Carol Burnett: 90 Years of Laughter + Love. Stream now on Peacock. You can find out more about our show @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Hairstory. Use code WISER at checkout for 20% off your purchase, and Hairstory will donate 10% of proceeds from this code to water preservation efforts.     Wiser Than Me is brought to you by Evereve. Check out Evereve’s latest curated styles and get 20% off your first online order when you use code WISER.    Apple Books has teamed up with Lemonada Media for an audiobook club. The June pick is Honey, Baby, Mine: A Mother and Daughter Talk Life, Death, Love (and Banana Pudding) by actress and activist Laura Dern, and her mother, legendary actress Diane Ladd. For more details, visit http://apple.co/lemonadabookclub.    Sleep better at night with Boll and Branch sheets. Get 15% off your first order when you use promo code WISER at bollandbranch.com   Click this link for a list of all Wiser Than Me sponsors and discount codes: https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lemonada. How much fun is it to laugh? I think laughing is just the greatest little gift from the gods. I don't know if you have this, but I've certain people in my life that I laugh so hard with that I cry. There is nothing better. And you know, I mean, it's not like you can exactly wake up and say, I'm going to laugh my ass off uncontrollably today, you know,

the kind of deep soul rocking laughter. You can't plan it. It kind of sneaks up on you. And it can be very surprising, you know, the laughing at a funeral kind of laughing, you know, you're not allowed to laugh makes it worse. It's a mysterious and it's a truly wonderful thing. As a performer, there's this weird sense playing a comic scene sometimes. It's like you're several people all at once. You're deeply into the scene, yes, but you're also in your head sort of controlling the scene and then you're also outside of it watching the scene. And when it's a comedy and it's going really well at least for me, that deep kind of laughter can just

bubble up and god damn it! It is impossible for me to stop it. I'd crack up, I lose it. I mean, if you've ever seen any of those blooper reels that they have online from Veepe or Seinfeld, my contribution is ruining scene after scene with hysterical after. And I have to say sometimes it's horrendous because you can see the other actors not believing that I have just ruined another take. You can see them getting a tad irritated with me, which I guess is understandable.

There's one scene though on Seinfeld where the great, and I do mean the great Jerry Stiller who played George's father, of course. He and I are having a kind of a confrontation and he says, what the hell does that mean? And the way he said it, I just lost it. My George isn't clever enough to hatch a scheme like this. You got that right. What the hell does that mean?

What the hell is this? Come on, okay, let's go, let's go. I mean, I never got through it. We did like a million takes. There was never one in which I didn't weep with laughter or at the very least I was you know, whimpering uncontrollably. I had to turn my head away from camera. I was digging fingernails into my palms.

I never got it together. I can't tell you how much fun that was. It's just inexpressible. And it really only happens when things are singing, you know? It's the expression of joy at being on a team that is hitting every fucking shot. That's really the best part, the team part. I'm not a religious person, but if there's a heaven, please let it be that.

Please, please, total, deep, uncontrollable laughter with a great team, with great friends. As I sit here right now, I am so grateful to think that there is going to be another time, maybe even today, when I am laughing so hard that I can't control it. Because, you know, Jesus, that's just what it's all about. How wonderful, how delightful, how right it is then, that for the last episode of this season of Wiser than Me, today, I get to talk to Carol Burnett. Hehehe. Hi, I'm Julie Louis-Dryfus and this is Wiser than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by

women who are Wiser than Me. Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do It's true, I love you so much. There's just absolutely nobody like Carol, nobody. There is no way to even measure what she has meant to television comedy, much less what she has meant to women in television comedy, and much less what she has meant to me in television comedy, side note, everything. Everything. She's done it all from starring on Broadway nearly seven decades ago and once upon a mattress to her seminal variety show, the Carol Burnett show, that was a mega super heat hit. I've got to get my shit together. I'm falling apart. That was a mega super hit

for 11 years on CBS and made her a household name to great dramatic performances to the presidential medal of freedom to a billion Emmys, a Tony, a Grammy, writing a ton of books, and bringing untold joy and laughter to millions and millions of people. She has a fascinating heroic personal story that she's been brave enough to share. She's just one of the most well-known, most beloved performers in the history of entertainment. And, man, is she wiser than me? I'm so lucky to say welcome, Carol. I love you. I love you, too. As we said, when I came into the room just now the last time I saw you I was Thrilled to open the envelope and say and the Emmy goes to

To have you do that and to be there with you I have a picture of you and me and Norman and Norman and it's so cherished. It's such a cherished treasure So Carol Are you comfortable if I say your real age? Of course, I do. And so, what is your real age? The big nine oh. Big nine oh. Yeah. And how old do you feel?

11. Do you really? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't. I can't wrap my head around it. It's gone so fast. Yeah. But as I've been saying before, Yeah, I didn't, I can't wrap my head around it. It's gone so fast, you know, but as I've been saying before,

I've got all my parts, I have my hips, I have my knees, and I got my brain, so I'm really fortunate. You are so fortunate. What is surprised you the most by getting older? Then I got older. Yeah, you mean, I feel the same. Yeah, yeah.

I remember when I was growing up, my grandmother was raising me, right? Yes. But she would never tell me how old she was, ever. She said, and she wouldn't tell anybody how old she was. But I was living with her and her mother, my great grandmother, in Texas. Yes. I was about five, I guess it wasn't. So I got my great-grandmother to tell me,

I said, please, you gotta tell me how old Danny is. She said, oh, she'll kill me if I tell you to. Finally, I got her to tell me. I burst in tears. Oh, I thought she's got one foot in the grave. No, how old was she when you heard this 52? No, I just saw. Oh, no, you're gonna die. Oh, my God. Isn't that funny perspective is everything?

Oh, so does that boulevard, right? The movie? Yes, of course. With Gloria Swanson. Yes. Well, the sunset boulevard, right? The movie? Yes, of course. With Gloria Swanson. Yes. The whole premise was she was over the hill at 50. Oh, come on.

Do you remember that? No, I don't remember that. The movie. No, I remember the movie and I remember your whole bit was she was too old to be in the movies again because she was 50. But I was reading in the New York Times editorial section today. Yes. That a lot of people were turning 90 and 95 and they're having parties.

And one of the people was quoted saying 90 is a new 60. Oh, God bless that idea. That idea. I love that idea. I'm looking down on Lear. He's going to be 101. He's going to be 101. Yeah. I know. idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea.

I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea.

I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea.

I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. I love that idea. And maybe there's something, actually I wanted to ask you this question. Do you think there's anything about making people laugh and laughing yourself? I think so. I do too. I wanted to ask you this.

Can you describe what it feels like to you to get a laugh, Carol? What is that feeling? Well, I've never been high, but I think that's what it's like to just be floating. Yeah, it is a floaty thing. I was a late, very late bloomer. I was kind of a nerd in high school. I was very serious with my schoolwork. I was editor of the Hollywood High School newspaper, so I was going to be a journalist.

Right. And all of that. And it wasn't until I got to UCLA and happened to take a course in acting just for the heck of it. And I picked a scene for the class to do that would be kind of light because the other kids in the class were doing these heavy, dramatic things. And I felt, well, I don't know what I want to do that. So I came out and I don't remember what it was, but I had a liner too. Yeah. And they laughed where they should.

And did you mean for it to be funny? Yeah. Oh nice. I wanted it to be light, but it was really a big really a huge laugh and I thought I like this feeling. Yeah, right and all of a sudden I Decided I didn't want to be a journalist anymore. I Wanted to make people laugh. It just took one one good good joke. Good. Yeah a joke and a jolt. Yeah.

I'm jumping all over the place, but it seems to me, I made a list somewhere in this, I have paper, I'm surrounded by papers because I had the great pleasure of studying up on Carol Burnett, which is a hardly an assignment. And many kindnesses have been bestowed upon you or let us say you have been open to receive them Mm-hmm, and I'm very struck by that looking at your life starting from your nanny whom I I can tell I would have loved her but I think about

your nanny and Going to see all these wonderful movies that you saw. Right. Do you mind telling the story about Joel McCray because my mother loved Joel McCray, the most handsome man ever? Well, he was a big movie star. You know, a lot of Westerns, he did a lot of Westerns. Right.

And I was editor of the Hollywood High School newspaper. Well done, you. And I thought of, wouldn't it be a great idea if I could interview famous people who went to Hollywood High? Which is a great idea. And he was one of them. Yes.

And so I went to my journalism teacher and I said, do you think that's a good idea, Mr. Thorpe? And he said, well, if you're lucky enough to do, get it, it's fine. So I was able to track his office, if I'd had his office number. And I called and I got somebody who represented him and said, you know, I'm editor Hollywood high school.

And they thought it was a cute idea. So yeah, okay, you can interview him. So I took the bus over to the studio where he was. I was shown it to his office. He was sitting there with his feet up on his desk and he had on cowboy boots and a cowboy hat on. And I sat and interviewed Joel McRae.

And it was so exciting that I went back to school and I typed up the interview and we ran it in the school paper. Yes. Then I got the idea I should interview more people like that. So I had it all set up to interview Lana Turner, who was a huge movie star at the time. Right.

But then I would have to cut class to do it because that was the only time I could see her. Yeah. And they wouldn't let me do it. Oh, I wish she'd cut class. I wish I could, but then years later, get this. She was a guest on my show. No.

So it was Betty Grable. No. So it was being crossbe-a-people that Nanny and I used to go and see on the movie, in the movies, you know? When did Nanny pass? She died in, no, she did not get to see my show, but she did see me on Broadway. Right. And when I did the Gary Moore Show.

Yes. Yeah, she saw that all of those. Yes. And it's Sullivan and those show. Oh, oh. Tell, already, I've got to hear it. I'm doing the Gary Moore Show. Right. And so I'm got to hear it. I'm doing the Gary Moore show.

Right. And so I'm really doing well, you know, and I'm getting a lot of fan mail and it's starting to happen. It's starting to happen. So she's in California. I'm in New York. She had a very mild, mild heart attack. And was in the hospital out here.

So I'm talking to my cousin who lived in California. She said, well, you're not gonna believe this. I said, what? She said, well, yesterday I went to visit Nanny in the hospital and the elevator doors open. And there are all these people lined up in various costumes and step like the extras and Hollywood movies and stuff and they're reading

variety and they're all lined up leading up to Nanny's hospital room door. Stop it. She went what is going on and she opens the hospital room door. Nanny is propped up sitting in bed with her arms crossed, you know, like that. And there's a little girl in a tutu dancing with a baton and her father is in the corner with a split. And then he says, very good. Thank you. I'll tell Carol about you sending the next one.

No. Hey. Oh my. She had because we lived in Hollywood. And she knew all of these various people. And the word got out that she was auditioning people. And my cousin said, Nanny, what are you? What are you?

She said, well, I got bored. Did she ever find anybody good that you met? No, she was, it was, she just wanted to be entertained. Yes, of course. So she was a con artist. Oh, gosh. I just think that is so funny. So charming.

Lucky you to have her. Did you, I'm sure she did. Did you always know you'd make it, Carol? Did she think you would and did you always know it? Did you feel it in your bones? By making it, I felt that I could, if I went to New York, all I wanted was to be able to put food on the table, close on my back and pray the rent. Yes. I did not think about being a headliner at all. It was just I wanted to perform and do whatever I could. Making it would have been to be able to sustain

myself. But then when things started to click, did you have a feeling of what's the word I'm looking well? Ambition? I had ambition. I wanted, yeah. I asked that question because I've asked a couple of other women that I've spoken to on this podcast about that word ambition because we have to have the fire in the belly. You do have to have fire in the belly, but sometimes when they say, oh, that woman is ambitious. Oh, well, that could sound terrible. Right, but that's not fair. And it's not fair.

It's not fair. It's not fair. But I remember, and I have told this story before because sometimes I get mail or people ask, how do you accept a rejection? Right. You know, could you get depressed? You're going to be rejected. Even the best of us. Even the best. And I remember this one time, I can't remember what I was auditioning for, but it wasn't a big deal. But it narrowed down to me and another girl. Yeah, and I thought I had it. I

Thought I had it, but I didn't she had it But what saved me was and I don't know where this came from, but I'm grateful. I thought Well, you know what? It's her turn Right. It's not my turn yet And did you immediately leave to that? Yes, I did. You didn't feel have any feeling of sadness.

No, I thought, thank you, God. I thought, was that okay? Yeah. I'll get my turn someday. If I try hard enough, I'll again have the fire in the belly. Yeah. And not let this discourage me. That's right.

So it's her turn and that's what I tell kids that are starting out. If you really want it and you really work at it, it'll happen. You know, I was thinking about that too because of your time at the rehearsal club. Yeah. And that was where you live when you first went to New York, which was a sort of a boarding house for young women who are trying to make it in show business, right? Yeah. By the way, that in and of itself is an incredible Hollywood or show business story, just the fact of that, right?

Right. I'm thinking of doing a treatment on it. I think it should be a series. I think it should be two and it should be set in that period. In that period. In the 50s. I love that idea. Yeah. I love that idea. Okay. Well, if you need the boarding house mother, you're looking at her. Anyway, but I love this story that you're that you told about, and I'll let you tell it, but when you went, you were trying to find an agent. And was it Eddie Boy that you were spending?

Eddie Boy. Boy, pardon me, boy. Eddie Ford Jr. So tell what happened. You're living in New York. I'm living in New York. And Eddie Ford Jr. was a comedian. Yeah. And he was a starring in the pajama game, which was a major Broadway hit.

What years is this, by the way? 1954. Okay. Or on that. Yeah, I just got into New York and I was sitting on my cot at the rehearsal club. Right. I had a cot and a dresser and four other roommates in one room. They were all out on a Saturday night.

It was raining. And I remember that when we lived in Hollywood, there was an actor named Jack Shay. And at one point, I remember him when I was still living there talking about how he did a movie. And Eddie Ford Jr. was one of the stars. And he said he was really nice. He was the nicest one I've seen in a long time. So I put on a plastic raincoat and galoshes and dredged down to the St. James Theater.

And it was about close to 11 o'clock at night. Yeah. Pouring rain, I looked like Ann Baxter and all about Eve. And I opened the stage door and it pops. Says the typical, looks like the stage manager, you know, the old guy at the bed. Yes, of course. Hey, kid, what do you do? I, he said, get in here out of the rain. What are you doing here?

I said, I'm here to see Eddie. And he said, you know Eddie? And I said, I'm from California. Anyway, whatever. It wasn't alive. But now I hear this clap, a thunder, I thought it was. And it was the audience applauding. It was the end of the show.

So everybody was taking their bows. I mean, it was so exciting. And I see John Rate run by and Janice Page, who they were the star and Carol Haney, who was also a star. And then here's Eddie Ford Jr. And Pop says, Hey, Eddie, this kid wants to see you. Yeah. So he says, oh, okay, yeah kid, what is it? Well, I can't believe the nerve I had. I said, Mr. Boy, I know Jack Shea, you know, he worked with you in a movie. He said, you're a real nice. And I want to be in show business.

And I just can't get an agent because they say I have to be in something. And he gets on and the, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Like this, he's waiting, wait a minute. He said, do you sing? I said, I'm on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on like this. He's waiting. He's waiting. He said, do you sing? I said, I'm loud. He said, do you dance? I said, not really.

I can jitterbug. He said, well, maybe I can get you an audition for the chorus. I said, well, I can't read music. He said, okay, you can't dance. You can't read music. I said, I'm not good enough for the chorus. I think I'd have to have a featured role. Oh my God, that's not fire in your belly. That's balls. But the thing is, he wasn't a trained dancer. He wasn't a trained singer. He couldn't

read music, but he was a star. And he said, okay, what's your phone number? He said, well, I'll see what I can do. He called me the next day at the club. Talk about kindness. And he said, this is my agent's name. I told him you were going to come see him. Right. And I took my UCLA scrapbook full of nice reviews. Smart. And he looked through. He said, well, let me know when you're in something. I said, but how?

And he said, go put on your own show. And so then tell me, is it? OK. So I went back to the rehearsal club. And I called a meeting for all the girls. I said, we're going to put on a show. Yeah. We did.

I wrote my own material. Everybody wrote their own material. We sent out penny postcards to every agent and producer in town saying, you're always saying, let us know when you're in something. Well, we're in something. They came. The producers and directors came to the show and three of us got agents out of it.

But you make your own breaks. Yeah, you make your own breaks, you push forward, you push through. Right. That's the most stunning story and it's a great television show or movie, whatever you want to make it. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. More with Carol Burnett after the break.

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Hi there listeners, just a quick note before we get back to the show. I want to tell you real quick about my new movie called You Hurt My Feelings. It's a little comedy about the little white lies we tell to the people we love the most. I play a writer who discovers that her long time adoring husband who said he loved her latest book actually hates her latest book. Can you imagine that, my fuck? It was so superb to work again with Nicole Hall of Center, who is the writer and director.

The entire cast is truly unbelievable. I'm so proud of the damn thing. You hurt my feelings. It's out now in theaters everywhere. I hope you go check it out. So you had many mentors in your career. Yes. Lucio Ball.

Right. Gary Moore. Who else? Who else am I? That's those are the two main ones, right? Yeah, yeah. And if you don't mind, tell me what Gary Moore,

what were the big takeaways? What were the, if there were in fact pieces of advice they gave you or they modelled for you? He was one of the kindest people and most generous people. And he was a big star. Yeah. I remember when I was hired as a second banana on his show. Yeah. And Derwood Kirby was a second banana also. And there would be times when we'd be reading the script on a Monday and we were going to tape on a Friday.

He might have a joke or a punchline and he'd look at it and he'd say, you know what, give this to Carol or give this to Gerrward, they can say it funnier than I can. That's who he was. Right. It was the Gary Moore show, but he wanted everybody to shine. And I learned that. And that's why my show, I never really called it my show. I called it our show.

I wanted Harvey to shine or Vicki or Tim or Lyle. And then I would shine. And we totally, it was a rep company. We totally supported each other. Since Caesar was that way with Karl Reiner and imaging and then later Nanette February, you spread it around because it only makes the show better. And I learned that from Gary. And you know, that camaraderie, which is really, you're talking about generosity and camaraderie, was really

evident as, you know, to lowly me audience member watching you as a young girl and as a teenager watching your show. It was so evident to me that it was fun. And that you all were having such a good time. Isn't that why we get into it in the first place? Thank you. That's exactly right. And then later they get cynical. Then sometimes people get cynical.

And instead of show business, this is show business. Yeah, you know. Totally. We want to get in the sandbox and play. Yeah, it's all play, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And don't take yourself too seriously. Please don't.

Right. Tell about Harvey Korman and that moment when you had to let him have it. Do you mind telling that story? Oh, Harvey at times could be a little grouchy, but then we could tease him out of it and he'd be, he was always wonderful. Right. You know, when he was performing, there was nobody could touch him. Nobody could touch him.

So brilliant. Right. You know, when he was performing, there was nobody could touch him. Nobody could touch him. So brilliant. Yes. And so this one morning we were pre-taping something and Patula Clark was on as a guest and everything. And Harvey was in his costume and he was a little short with her. I don't think he meant to and I don't remember what it was, but he said something that was not kind. And I could take it if he wanted to be a little curmudgeon with me or something and our Tim could take him. We'd kid him out

of it and he'd be fine. But I thought you don't do this to a guess. No, no. So I went up to I said Harvey, what's wrong? He said, I'm just not happy. I'm sorry. I said, stay after the show tonight. I want to talk to you. Mm-hmm. So I was a wreck doing the show. He was brilliant as usual.

Fun with Patula. I mean, it was all just why you are a wreck in anticipation of this conversation. Or what I was going to have to say to him. Oh, Lord, you know, because I hate confrontation. Okay. Hate it. Oh, at one point, he said, I'm just not sure I'm happy on this show. That's what he said. And so in the meantime, I called his agent and I said, I'm going to be talking to our army, but he wants off the show, I'm gonna let him off the show. And he said, well, you can't do this guy,

I said, he can't do this to a guest. Yes. And he said, well, I said, I'll talk to you later. So Harvey stayed. Now I'm nervous. Now I put on my best Rosalind Russell Barbara Stanwick. And have it the character. Yeah.

I said, I understand you're not happy, so don't come back. You're off the show. And he said, what do you talk? I said, no, you can't be rude. I said, you're off the show. It's okay. You know, I have a contract. I said, well, you know, we'll just talk about that with

You know, the powers to be but you can't behave this way Now he says well, I you started to cut back pedal Mm-hmm, and I said, okay, I'll give you one more chance You come in to work next week. Yes, and when I see you I Want you to be whistling and skipping down the hall. Nice. So, comes Monday. We always had a script reading in my office.

And I before it was a time, and I went to excuse myself to go to the ladies room, and then the elevator door opened right just before I went into the ladies room. And Harvey comes out, we both stand there looking at each other for a frozen second. He starts going whistling and skipping down the hall. And so I had a plaque made and I put it on his dressing with Dorkal, Mr. Happy Go Lucky.

Oh, that's genius. And I loved him. I mean, we were always close. I'm making it this is a very rare, you know. Rare circumstance. Yeah. But let's talk about you as a boss. Oh.

Yeah, because you say you avoided confrontation, right? And I'm interested in that. And maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's generational. I'm not sure. I think so. I was married to the producer. Yes. He had produced a Gary Moore show.

Okay. You know, Joe. And so he really was the boss. I would come in and I would make suggestions and things like that But this was the only time I ever Took charge Don't that he didn't know I was firing Harvey until after. Did you like for example if there was material that needed punching up or No, I know exactly where you're going with. How did this scout manage? Since Cesar Jackie Liesen was saying, come on guys, this is crappy. You got to fix it.

Right. I don't like it. I couldn't do that. You couldn't. But I would do what I would call the writers down. If we were doing a sketch and it wasn't working, I would say, you know, can you help me out here a little bit, I'm not really feeling this too well. I'm not saying this like, like, in other words, help me as opposed to telling. Yeah, so you didn't scold me. No, I didn't say, come on, you gotta fix this, it's saying. No.

No, but I would argue that that approach that you developed for yourself was, certainly, a more kind approach, but maybe even a better approach because it really, you are demanding creativity without demanding it. You're locking arms with these guys and saying, we're on the same team, can you help me out? Help me out. Oh, did I ever tell you a story about Lucy? Tau. Lucky you. Lucky you. I'm sure. She was up. Oh my god. She was on my show this one week and there was just before orchestra

rehearsal. So there was a dinner break. So we went across the street to the farmer's market. It was a little Chinese restaurant. And she's knocking back a couple of whiskey sourds. Sure. And she says, you know, kid, call me kid. She was 22 years older, so that I was kid. Yeah. She says, you know, it's great you got Joe, you know,

to be looking out for you. Looking out for you, she said, when I was married to the Cuban, she said, he did everything. Desi, he took care of the scripts. He did everything. Dessie took care of the scripts. He took care of the camera work. He invented the three cameras, put them on wheels. Believe me, I know. Yeah. And all of that, Dessie did it all. He'd like supervise a cost to me. This and that. So she said, all I had to do on a Monday, this come in and be crazy silly Lucy. Now we got a divorce. Now I'm going to do the Lucille Ball Show. She said, so I come in, read the script, and she

said, it was awful. And I didn't know what to do. Desi wasn't there to fix it. So I call for a break. She said, and then went to my office, and I thought, and I thought, and I thought, I've got to be like Desi. I've got to be strong. And she said, so we went back, I sat down, and in no uncertain terms, I told them. And I became Desi. I just told them, what was wrong?

They said, got to fix it. She was confrontational. She took another little sip of her whiskey sourd, she said, kid, that's when they put the S on the end of my last name. But I think, I mean, I guess it's a kind of, you took her advice as it were, and you interpreted it for yourself. And I think that's a great lesson. I'm so glad to hear that your thoughtful approach to making a better show.

You know, because it's not always perfect, that first pass at a script is often in need of a lot of work, right? Exactly. By the way, you know, they shot, it's either Renmar Arale studios where they shot the, I love Lucy. One Rally Studios where they shot the I Love Lucy. One of those two I can't remember which one it is because they're both our words but anyway

that's where we shot the first four episodes of Seinfeld which I was always just oh wow yeah exactly it was really cool to be in the same space. Can you I know I'm asking a lot of questions to your career but I do have one other question to ask you. And that's about when you first did Carnegie Hall with Julie Andrews, how did that happen? How did that show come to pass? Well, Julie was a guest on the Gary Moore show. And we had a finale written for us that we did. Yeah.

And it was the first time I've ever seen a studio audience stand up and give us a standing ovation. Oh my. And so the producer offered a special to CBS, Julian Carroll, in Carnegie Hall. They weren't interested. They said because they seek Carol every week on Gary's show. And only Broadway knows Julie Andrews.

She hadn't done a movie yet. I see. And so they didn't think it would be any good. So, okay. So I'm at an affiliate's luncheon for CBS a few weeks later. And I'm kind of brave and I'm kidding around with some of the CBS Vice Presidents. And I said, well, I guess if you don't want Julie and me, we could go over to NBC, they have color. I was terrible. And they kind of laughed, but they still weren't interested.

So the luncheon is over. We leave the building and it's pouring down rain and they said, we'll wait and help you get a cab, Carol. And I said, oh, don't worry. I said, somebody's going to pull up and give me a lift. I swear to God, Julia, those words were out of my mouth. A beer truck pulled up. Stop it. The guy leaned out and said, hey, Carol, you want to lift? No. Stop it. The guy leaned out and said, Hey, girl, you want to live? They hoisted me up into the cab with a beer truck. The guy drove me home to Central Park South. I'm opening the door to my apartment. The phone is ringing.

Pick it up. It's the one of the vice presidents. You got your show. Because why? Because the beer truck time, because a strange man came out, gave me that they recognized from Gary and for some reason that triggered them. They said, you know what, let's give them the show. And of course the show was a big hit. It's a fantastic show. I was watching it and I was watching the intro number that you do we belong together. Yeah.

Which I love that number. By the way, the dress that you're wearing and she's wearing, of course, I'm watching this in black and white, but I have never in my life since such beautiful gowns. Gorgeous. But let me tell you when I was struck by. So the lyrics in We Belong Together, you open the... You're so London. Yes. I'm so San and Tony, right? So the lyrics in We Belong Together, you open the... You're so London.

Yes, I'm so San and Tony, right? And you say, you open, you start the sketch just sort of before the song, you say, I don't belong here, I don't belong here. And then off you go and you're seeing the song and then you come to We Belong Together. Together. And the word We Belong is a word that's, I just, it's stuck with me because then when you

saying your last song for the final episode of the Carol Burnett show and you changed the lyric and you saying, I'm so glad we had this time together. Just to have a laugh or sing a song. But that's time. We just started. But that time you sang, cause you make me feel like I be long. Right.

And I thought, oh, how funny that you would come up with that. Well, it was a nice, but it was such a parenthesis. And it's sort of a, I think you offered us an insight into your love of what you do, and to the feeling that I think we share in performance, which is a feeling of acceptance and belonging. And you tapped into that. And aren't we lucky?

Oh, very fortunate. Yes. And what's great too is an I see it in you and I know it's in me. We are aware of how fortunate we are. Yeah. It's not something that we take for granted. Never. No, because it could have been otherwise.

Absolutely. Yeah. And you had all three of your children during the Carol Burnett show? Is that correct? I had the first two before we started. And then you had your last daughter during the run of the show.

Right. Well, we had, I don't know how too many shows that did what we did. We had a school schedule. Yeah, it's because a mother was at the helm if you don't mind my saying. Yeah, and we had, it was, well, actually it was the same way with the Gary Moore show. We would go to work at, we knew what we were going to do. We go to work at, start at 10 in the morning.

Right. I could take the kids to school. Brilliant. Good work. And on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, I'd be out at three, 10 to three, but we knew everything. We rehearsed. We all got Thursday was blocking day. Yeah. And I'd be home every night and time for dinner except on Friday when we taped. Right. And then we did two shows on Friday and the girls would come to see the dress rehearsal.

We would have, we've worked three weeks, have a week off. We'd always have a week off at Easter, we'd have two weeks off at Christmas, we had the summer so far. So I was off, right. All of that, so I didn't work more than 20 some hours a week. It was almost like a part-time job. Were you able to go home and leave work behind you?

Yeah. And the thing too, we taped our show. We usually do about an hour or 15 because we'd go over because I do the Q&As. Yes. We'd be out in about two hours. So the audience, it was like they were watching a Broadway show. So I never wanted to do it like a live show. I never wanted to keep the studio audience waiting because they feed us. Yes, of course, you need their energy. Totally. And so I would make a bet with the stage hands that I could do a skin out change faster than

they could move that couch across the room. I bet you won that. Because of theater. Yes. Yes. And then the show ended after 11 seasons and you called that. Yeah. Endings are hard.

They are. But I wanted to leave before they started to flick the lights on and off. No, I hear that. No, I have the same experience both with Seinfeld, with Veeb. Yes, but talk about how, actually, I'm really interested here this because you've had people in your life, dear people in your life, pass, and you've had shows end. I'm not likening one with the other, but it is another kind of ending, right? So how do you, as somebody who's weathered a lot of that, how do you manage endings?

What's the alternative? Yeah, right. You know, and so everything comes to an end. Yeah. You know, and another thing too is, you know, if you're down, there's always an end. Yeah. You know, another thing too is, you know, if you're down there's always an up. Then even when you're up there's a down, so expect that's life.

And just be, as I say, I feel so grateful. Yes. You know, here I am 90 years old, I'm healthy. I've had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. Yes. But I'm still here. You are. You're still here.

To quote the song. I know. But it's a stone-cold miracle. It is. I feel that. And as I say, and I'm aware of it, I'm grateful. Right. Yeah.

I wanted to tell you ask, or I wanted to thank you actually because when your daughter, Carrie, was suffering from addiction and you spoke so openly and honestly about that. And I had a sister who passed from all the old. Yes, very tragically. But I appreciate your honesty and your forthrightness about that issue because there can be shame associated with it. And addiction is a bear, as you know. So I just wanted to thank you, just. Well, what was nice?

I mean, we went through hell, no question about it. But she got sober when she was 17. And then she had a career. She had a very good career starting. At one point, she was in a movie called Tokyo Pop, which now is a little cult film. Yes. And Marlon Brando called her and wanted to have a meeting with her about something he was thinking about.

Yes. And she turned him down. Why? I became a stage mother. I said, are you crazy? And she said, well, I did the movie, but I'm gonna do other thing. Now, she wanted to do music. She wanted to do. She was never interested in making a name for herself. She wanted to write. I she eventually wanted to direct. She wanted to sing. She wanted to write music. She had a running

role on fame. And she was really on her way. And you had the glorious experience of working on the play with her. With her. It was her idea. Please. Yeah, that was her idea. That's it.

Based on my first book. Yes. And she said, let's just do it for fun, Mom. And she wrote, she had a cabin in Colorado. And I wrote in, and we would fax scenes back and forth. And then my friend, I showed a rough draft to my friend Beverly Sills. Yes. And she read it and she showed it to Hal Prince, the director.

Of course. And he said, I'd like to direct this. I mean, and with your daughter. Yeah, but she didn't live to see. She passed away before we got to Chicago. You know, but, oh, this is weird. You know, is there something else happening around us that we don't know and can't see and can't understand? I think so. On the plane to Chicago, I said a little prayer to carry. Because we were breaking it in in Chicago before we go to Broadway. I said, carry, let me know. I had to finish the play. Oh gosh, can't. No, I, because it was going to be tryouts. I said, let me know you're with me. I need to know, you know, that, so, got to the hotel, got to my room, and on the coffee table

was this huge array of birds of paradise. Carrie had a bird of paradise tattooed on her right shoulder. And it was from hell, looking forward to seeing you tomorrow rehearsal of hell. So I called his room, Al Pritz. Yes. And I said, how did you know? He said, no, what? I said, these are her.

He said, I didn't. He said, I just said, send up something exotic. So birds of Paradise came. Okay. Whoa. So the next night, my husband and I took hell out to dinner and the maternity came up with a big bottle of champagne. And on the label, it said Louise.

Louise was my mother's name and carries middle name. Oh. And I thought, whoa, this is so. And then, Carrie and I always loved rain. Yeah, and rain features in all of your stories I'm going to mention. And from the beginning of the night in Chicago, it rained. So I had three signs. Beautiful signs.

And I felt, okay, Carrie, you're here with me. That is just so powerful. That's so touching. Wow. My conversation with Carol Burnett continues after this break. So many betting brands out there use harmful chemicals like formaldehyde, synthetic pesticides, and toxic dyes, hard to sleep soundly knowing about all that, right? Well, Bowlen branch has found a better way. Bowlen branch, the sponsor of this podcast, offers 100% organic cotton sheets with no harsh chemicals. Each sheet set is slow made for superior quality,

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your favorite products delivered on repeat with their subscribe and save program. Head to OSEA Malibu.com and use code WISER. Carol, can you talk about your idea of beauty and how it's changed or not as you've gotten older? of beauty and how it's changed or not as you've gotten older and your approach to yourself and how you feel physically as you've gotten older, what has that journey been like? Oh, interesting. Because I always felt very homely as a kid. I had a beautiful cousin who looked like a baby, Sharon Stone You know, and I always felt very plain. And I was.

And I know. First of all, I'm gonna tell you something. You weren't. Oh, you were. No, you weren't, Carol. You weren't. I know you say this about yourself, but anyway, carry on.

No, one time I remember I was doing the Gary Morsho. And you know, the wonderful writer Larry Gilbert. Sure. He was so, at one point, he was quoted as saying, Carol Burnett is almost very pretty. And I wrote back, I said, that's almost very nice of him. Good for you, that's a great response.

That's not a very kind thing to say. No, but it was actually I thought it was. Almost very pretty. It's kind of not bad. But how do you feel now? No. I think I'm fine for my age. Are you kidding me?

No, I'm fine. I'm happy. You know, I don't have a double chin. No, you don't. And you're physically very fit. Do you exercise? I walk. Uh-huh.

Right. You walk. Well, because you are always, I mean, the fact of... Oh, I was always very physical. Yeah. Yeah, I love doing physical comedy. Of course, it's so much fun. Yeah. What about the work before you do that?

I mean, in other words, did you exercise as an object person? At one point, I was hooked on yoga for about seven years. Yes. I did classes and stuff and that. And then I had a little exercise class that I taught at CBS during lunch hour. No kidding. For half hour. Yeah.

I should have done it. Look at Jane Fonda was later. Tell me about it. I should have thought about it. You're a precursor to Jane Fonda. Yeah. Yeah. so I did that. Right. Yeah.

And what about cognition? Because you're obviously, I mean, give me a break. You're so completely and totally with it. I mean, if you told me you were 35, I'd buy it. No, for real. So what do you attribute that to? Do you think so? I do think so.

Well, I, for about over 30 years, 35, 40 years, I was going on the road and doing Q&As. That keeps you sharp. But I mean, do you do anything else to keep your, I mean, or your reader? We do crossword puzzles every day. And I wordle. I wordle too. Did you do today? Yeah.

I got it in two. You did not. Oh, it's because I was lucky with my first word. What was your first word? My first word was crate CR-ATE. And it was carrot today. That's right. So I had a lot of letters that I could play with.

Now, not to get too deep into the weeds on Wordal, but I also play it every day. I love it so much. I do too. I play with Allison Janie. Oh, goodness. She's a friend of my auntie. And Charlie's therein.

You play with them? Not with the we wordle. Back and forth. Back and forth. Oh my God. I'd like to get in on that Wordal game. Okay. Well, I'll give I'm gonna give you myself Okay, so do you always use crate as your opening word? That was my question I used to do that a lot and then sometimes I vary like with audio

Uh-huh, you know with all the valves. Yes, you get that and a Jew Jew. I know. I used a Jew for a long time. Now I'm into a rise. Oh, I don't know. It's done me well except today I got carrot and five, not two. Oh, well the other day I did a six. I mean, you know, the very, snafu, snafu was one of the most hard hard. I didn't have good letters for that one. Yeah, right. Do people know what we're talking about? Well you know we can edit all of this crap out but I mean back back to you if I find a so as it happens I've spoken to many different women doing this podcast here who have had three marriages. You're one of those people as well but you're in the the fine company of Isabella Yende, Jane Fonda, Darling Love.

So, what's the trick? What is it about the third marriage? How did this... Well, you got to get it right then. Also being old enough to, you know, you've been around the block a few times. You know what you want. You know what makes you happy. Yes. You know. So've been around the block a few times. You know what you want. You know what makes you happy. Yes. You know. Yes. So you did it. I did it.

We've been 21 years now. Congratulations. That's phenomenal. And how did you meet each other? We worked together. Oh. He's a musician. Oh.

And I was doing a show in Long Beach and he was the music contractor for the orchestra. And that's how we met. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. How do you keep the romance alive? Is that easy? As long as you have a sense of humor. That applies to everything, but I totally hear you.

That answers that question. Done and done. Oh, God. So I'm trying to think, what else do I need to talk to you about? I mean, I just love you so much. I can barely think. But let me ask you a couple of sort of little brief questions if I may.

Is there something you go back and tell yourself when you were 21? No. Nothing. I think, no, I don't think if I gave myself some advice, I wouldn't be where I am now. Oh, Carol. I haven't thought of that, but I think that might be it. That's a good answer, Carol. I have a thought of that, but I think that might be it. That's a good answer, Carol. Yeah, that's a great answer.

You know, you had to go through it. You had to go through it. Dejection, again, kind of sorrows, happiness, sorrow, happiness, so forth. So I don't know what would have happened if I would go back and give myself some advice. I see. Yeah, you wouldn't be where you are. Yeah. So I think I know the answer to this question,

but is there something you would go back and say yes, too? No, but I think there are a few things I'd say no, too. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. Certain choices I made in career. Really? Yeah. Yeah, that in a way, I look back and think I was foolish in trying to please everybody.

Yes. Yeah. I was a people pleaser. I think. Quite a bit. I didn't want to. everybody? Yes. Yeah. I was a people pleaser. I think. Quite a bit. I didn't want to... Ruffle feathers. And finally, it's nice to know that no can be a complete sentence.

Okay. So, this has come up in another interview with Jane Vonda. Really? Yes. She said exactly the same thing. No kidding. Yes. Can you believe it?

It comes with age. It comes with age and it's such? No kidding. Yes. Can you believe it? It comes with age. It comes with age and it's such a good answer. Yeah. No. No. There's no, I'm sorry after all. And it's not going to ruin anybody or. That's right.

Yeah, it's okay. Right. Let me ask you this. Is there something you want me to know about aging? I'm 62. What you don't look at, that's what you should know about aging. I wasn't fishing for a compliment. I really, really mean that. It's there's something you would like me to know as I'm, you know, Jane Fonda talks about her life in three acts. The first,

the second, and the third act, right? She's 85. And so, and when she entered her third act, she decided to do a life review and really think about what the intention of her third act would be. But here's the remarkable thing. Here you are, wonderful beloved Carol Bernat, and you are entering your fourth act. And so I wonder if you could, I wonder what your intention is as you enter this next decade. If you have one, if you don't, that's fine. My intention is to keep on trucking, you know, and staying as healthy as I can. Yes. I'm not anxious to, that I have to keep working to prove anything. That's, I've done that. Right.

You know, and, but if something comes along, Yes. that interests me, I'll do it. Yeah. But I am not worried about what if nothing comes along, then I'm fine. I'm okay with it. Yeah, I did a few things recently, you know, with better call Saul and then with amazing performance. They were wonderful to work with. Well, please, and then I just finished

Palm Royale with Kristen Wigg and Allison and Larder. And that's coming out in the fall, I think. We don't know you exactly yet. And I didn't expect to do anything after Better Call Saul, but then this came along. And it's not only a good script, but to work with those women. Right. I'd be crazy to turn it down. So I had a wonderful time doing that.

But if that's it, that's it. I'll be fine. I'll do my crosswords and my wordle. Yeah. Breathe that out. And I have my husband and my cat. You have your husband. Who's younger than you?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. What's that like? Lovely. I don't have to take care of them. It could take care of me. Oh, that's nice. Yeah.

That is good. Yeah. That's really nice. And, well, I don't know what to say except thank you. Oh, thank you, honey. I, um, well, you were so sweet, but I have to tell you, I think you are one of the greatest comedic actresses of our time. Oh, Carol, thank you.

You were just so honest and funny and truthful. It all comes out of truth. Thank you. You know, you're not trying too hard. You just are. Thank you. That means totally everything coming from you. And I really, honestly, you're what you have done with your life has informed my life more than I can articulate in this conversation.

Thank you. So, thank you, Carol. I love you. Love you too. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Complete. Yay! So for our listeners on why is it me normally after we have these remarkable conversations,

I call my mom and I tell her about the conversations. But we thought for this final episode, we'd have my mom listening in, like a fly on the wall to the conversation with Carol. So I don't have to recap. We can just download how stunned we are by the magical quality of Carol Burnett. Is that how you feel, Mom? Oh, well, both of you, I have to say that ending.

I know, I couldn't believe it. No, you know, parents think their children are the right, yeah, and they know they're children or the best, the best to the best. But when somebody else agrees, it's just like a magical moment. It was so wonderful. So many things she said, I just wanted to say, oh, of course, I mean, there is so much of truth in this that she said.

And so much truth and performance and truth in life that just got put on the table, it's overwhelming. I have to say, I am really overwhelmed with this. It was almost like given two big adose of a truth drug at something. I've never had a truth drug. But do you know what I mean? It's just like all of a sudden, everything's in the rule way.

And it was just like, you were just talking to your soul or something. It was so perfect. Yeah, talking to your soul or something. It was so perfect. Yeah, she's a dear person. I mean, she, in terms of her energy, mom, and her mentation, her physicality, I mean, she's like you, frankly. I mean, she's completely with it. Well, I was thinking when all the time she was saying her wonderful stories and telling

her wonderful tales and being how wonderful she is. And I was saying to myself, I mean, when people used to be 90, they were in wheelchairs, they were wheeled around, they wheel them out parties and then they'd hiccup and then take them back in. That was what they did with the old people. And old people now are just out. I mean, when she was talking, I was remembering the Carol Burnett show. And the cast, you know, she was so right about the whole cast meant that they were also we loved them so much. And what I remember, when she would do something funny, she would sort of look bewildered,

a little bit bewildered. And like, like she would look around to people. So everything, she always had this sense of being with the connection was always there. And that connection was something, and I could feel between you two in this also. And I think the ability to connect is a huge thing. I think maybe particularly in comedy, but in life. It's critical. You not think. I do. In EM forestry's novel, Howard's End, the last words in the novel are only connect. I just think that people that can do that and really care about each other, it's a kind

of prayer, it's bigger than you are, you know that you are just part of the story. And I was so touched by this to, I can't tell you. Yeah. At the beginning, when you were just so touched to be with you, just sitting there. Please. I thought. Yeah. But I was, it was appropriate.

I mean, appropriate to be with somebody of that stature and this had that duration and has that kind of skill and gift and talent and durability and to be sitting with her and her sitting there with you and all of your achievements and at your age, it's well, it was a real duo. It was real duo. I love that. What a God, I mean, shit, I need a drink. I'm exhausted or bedtime. I need bedtime.

Well, you you've earned you've earned a drink of bedtime. Whatever it is that that you've earned honey. I really I was I I'm so happy to have witnessed this truly for a mother to witness her daughter in a situation like this with somebody like Carol Burnett who is, well, who is praising her who understands your own daughter and the unity that happened. Well, it's something I will always, always remember. And it's a, it's such a tribute to both of you. And, oh, I have have to say and in my own way I felt that it was I mean I feel connected to the tribute also. I mean I feel connected

in giving you a tribute but feeling the tribute that those of us that have loved our children have received. Thank you. I want to tell you this was a treasure. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah, I loved it too. Okay, mommy. Love you, tons. Love you, love you. Love you, tons. And so happy to know I'm going to go out of here that we're women now. Everything's going to come here.

Oh, okay. Bye. Okay. Bye. Good bye. Hey, love you, mommy. Love you. Love you. Love you, Mommy. Love you, Love you. Love you. Love you.

Bye-bye. There's more Wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. Subscribe now and Apple Podcasts. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy P's, Alex McCohen, and O'Hall Lopez, Brad Hall is a consulting producer.

Our senior editor is Tracy Clayton. Rachel Neill is our senior director of new content and our VP of Weekly Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Stephanie Widdle's Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, Paula Kaplan, and me. The show is mixed by Kat Yor and Johnny Vince Evans and music by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Charlotte Cohen-Sunderland, Will Schlagel, and of course my mom, Judith Bowles.

Well, we've had a great run, dear listeners, and because this is our last episode of the season, and because it takes a lot of people to make a show like this, I wanted to peel back the curtain and quickly thank all of the many wise women who helped make this podcast possible. Our rock star marketing team includes Lizzie Breyer-Bomin, Sahar Baharlu, Rose Dennis, Amber Girardi Robinson, Lena Martinez, SK Satterwhite, and Vanessa Olman. Thanks to our friends in business development, Don Gunderson Taylor and Ceci Don Grin. And of course nothing is possible without the folks

and operations in finance. Thank you to Jen Branden, Val Bo Durefa, and Ali Penel. And a very special shout out to Rochelle Green and Jackie Danziger. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts, and hey, if there's an old lady in your life, listen up. Hey Wiser than me listeners, we want to hear from you. By just answering a few questions on our listener survey, you can share feedback about show content you'd like to see in the future and help us think about what brands would serve you best. And even better, once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a

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