Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus - Julia Gets Wise with Dolores Huerta

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

On this episode of Wiser Than Me, Julia talks with 94-year-old trailblazing labor activist Dolores Huerta. Dolores reflects on her iconic “Sí Se Puede” (“Yes We Can”) slogan, shares her views on healthy divorces, and opens up about confronting some of her own long-held Catholic beliefs. The pair also discuss the lasting influence of Dolores's mother, while Julia recalls what may have been her own first act of activism. Plus, Julia’s 90-year-old mom, Judith, opens up about the evolution of her views on women’s reproductive rights.   Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast.   Keep up with Dolores Huerta @DoloresHuerta on X and Instagram.   Find out more about other shows on our network at @lemonadamedia on all social platforms.   Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show and get bonus content. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.    For exclusive discount codes and more information about our sponsors, visit https://lemonadamedia.com/sponsors/.    For additional resources, information, and a transcript of the episode, visit lemonadamedia.com.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Well, hello there! It's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. I'm so happy to be back with season three of Wiser Than Me. And to celebrate that, I am so excited to share that we have partnered with Lingua Franca, a New York City-based luxury and sustainable clothing brand, to offer our listeners Wiser Than Me-specific hand-embroidered sweaters, sweatshirts, and more. I've gotten to hand select each of the items in this curated collection and have had so much fun with it along the way, adding a bunch of sayings from our podcast to the items.

It all combines Lingua Franca's chic yet thoughtful designs with our mission to celebrate the wisdom of older women. So check out our collection by heading over to wiserthanmeshop.com and clicking on the Lingua Franca collection. Lemonada. Hi there wiser than me listeners and dear friends. I just quickly wanted to let you know that this episode of our show was actually recorded before the big and consequential election that we just had. And I gotta say, I am truly glad that this is the episode that we're sharing today because

Truly glad that this is the episode that we're sharing today because our guest is a living reminder of the resilience it takes, win or lose, to keep on, keep on organizing and fighting for the things that you believe in. I mean, she is really wisdom in action. It is so fortuitous that this is the episode that comes out this week. So anyway, I hope you enjoy the conversation and thanks so much for listening. When I was very young, I remember going to the grocery store with my mom and grabbing some grapes, because I mean, who doesn't love grapes? And my mom told me, Julia, Julia, no, no, no, we can't buy those.

And she explained that we were supporting the United Farm Workers and I had to put the grapes back. So I did. And in fact, putting those grapes back might have been the first activist thing I ever actually did. Now, a few years later, I like to think of myself as an activist because I think that's a great thing. It's an honorable thing to be. When I was pregnant with our eldest son, I was thrilled to march in Washington, D.C. in support of reproductive

justice for women. That march and rally drew several hundred thousand people to D.C. because we were all afraid the high court, with then new conservative majority might, God forbid, overturn Roe v. Wade. Seems almost quaint now, right? Since then, I've marched and protested along with actual professional activists for lots of causes that I believe in. Remember the huge women's rallies that were held all over the country when Donald Trump was inaugurated in 2017? I think people have kind of forgotten that nearly five million people outraged by Trump's misogyny and racism organized marches all over the United States. That was the single biggest protest in the history of the country. The LA protest was the biggest of all with an estimated 750,000 people in the history of the country. The LA protest was the biggest of all with

an estimated 750,000 people in the streets of downtown LA. And that's a real 750,000, not a Trump 750,000. And there was a huge stage built, like at an intersection, you know, kind of like a rock and roll concert stage with giant screens and speakers and everything. And I got to get up there and give a big rah rah speech which was just so exciting. And I spoke right before they brought Helen Reddy up to sing her hit song, I Am Woman, which has become such an anthem for the feminist movement.

I saw her there next to the stage and she looked great, but she seemed a little bit confused because, as you might remember, she was suffering from dementia. And, you know, of course, all these people and lights and noise, I mean, that had to be really difficult for her. So she came out to a tremendous ovation and the band cranked up, I am Woman, and she started to sing it. But pretty soon it was clear that she couldn't remember the words. And you know, this might have been absolutely tragic,

but an amazing thing happened. The crowd started to sing it for her. The crowd just carried her with it. And when they got to the chorus, it was thousands of women in unison singing, yes I am wise but it's wisdom born of pain. Yes I've paid the price but look how much I've gained. If I have to I can do anything I am strong strong I am invincible invincible I am woman and God we were just we were so all in tears of course and it just it makes me cry now it was just one of those incredible moments shared by three-quarters of a million generous people in LA. I mean, what did it accomplish? It's kind of tough to say, right?

I mean, maybe it was one tiny, tiny step forward, showing women how much power we have, more than we know, when we carry each other forward the way that that crowd carried Helen Reddy. But the true professional activists, the organizers, the pros, the Martin Luther Kings, Gloria Steinem, Gandhi, they have to take all of that frustration, righteous anger, energy, and they have to channel that into real change. That takes more than passion and emotion. That takes talent, skill, and most of all, hours and hours and years and years of work. These people are a miracle, I think. I really do. Without them, it's all darkness. How lucky, how blessed we are then to talk today with Dolores Huerta.

I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus and this little veggie scramble. It was all incredibly delicious. It was also the product of really hard work. Getting food from the farm to the table is actually kind of a miracle, and the conditions of those whose labors accomplished that miracle isn't something that we think about nearly enough. When I had a small child of my own and we were looking for an elementary school for him, we toured a school in Santa Monica. And I'll never forget this because when we got to the second-grade classroom they had a big rug with the lyrics, All You Need Is Love on it. And a huge poster on the wall of Cesar Chavez. And my husband and I looked at each other and we said, this is our school.

Unfortunately though, there wasn't a poster of Dolores Huerta, but there sure should have been. Let me back up. It's 1962. The space race is heating up. Johnny Carson is the brand new host of The Tonight Show. The Beach Boys have just released Surf and Safari, their first album, but today's guest didn't give a rat's ass about any of that. She was thinking about Chicano and Filipino

farm workers and laborers in California, working 16-hour days for criminally low pay with no clean water, no toilets, no decent housing, or even the most basic health care. And they're big agricultural company bosses who didn't want to change a thing. At just 32 years old, Dolores co-founded the United Farm Workers with Cesar Chavez and became one of the great organizers in American history. From 1965 to 1970, she organized the Grape Strike and Boycott, which started in California and spread all the way across the nation to that supermarket where I was shopping with my mom. That boycott was a huge victory for farm workers, winning them better pay, benefits, and protections, and led to the passage of

the Agricultural Labor Relations Act of 1975, establishing the rights of farm workers to collectively bargain, the first law of its kind in the United States. Dolores has been arrested over 20 times, intimidated, assaulted, and nearly killed by police, and still, here she is, undeterred. She still attracts controversy. In fact, not long ago, Arizona and Texas schools both passed policies that omit her life's work from their American history curricula. Are you believing what I'm saying? Cesar Chavez's words about Dolores still ring true.

Her presence made it acceptable for women to join the picket line, encouraging wives and daughters to stand up and be part of the movement. Every story of the great Cesar Chavez should also include his partner, his equal, Dolores Huerta. She is the recipient of many deserved honors, including the Eleanor Roosevelt Human Rights Award, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and was the first Latina in history to be inducted into the National Woman's Hall of Fame. Oh yes, and of course she's a mother to 11 children.

What can't this woman do? She's a true champion of civil and workers' rights, and we all need to be trumpeting her story. I am beyond honored to welcome today a woman who is so much wiser than me, Dolores Huerta. Dolores, welcome, welcome, welcome. Oh, thank you very much for having me. And I'm not sure that that's true. I believe that you're very wise and probably with everything you've heard, even wiser than all of us at this point.

Oh, you're so kind, and this is why you're a leader, because you're empowering all the people around you. So, Dolores, can I ask you a question? Are you comfortable if I ask your real age? Oh, sure. Yeah, I'm 94 years old. Wow. Okay. That's an accomplishment. How old do you feel? I feel more like 65, maybe. Why do you feel 65? And also also what's the best part about being your age? Well, we have been through so much, we have learned so much, we have seen so much. So we have

a lot of experience that we can draw on when we have to make decisions. But it's always about empowering other people, especially young people. Yes. And that's what we as elders have to do. Yes, and you certainly have done it. I want to know, what does your day look like? What you do just for fun? Well, I like jazz. And so here in Bakersfield, California, we have a jazz workshop every Tuesday. And we go here free jazz. And we have different musicians that play and I love dancing, I love music. Do you play an instrument? I did when I was young.

I played the violin, I played the piano, but I had no talent. What about dancing? Are you a good dancer? Yes, I used to actually dance. I did tap, I did toe. Oh. Yes, I did flamenco when I was a youth. No kidding. You know who else does tap dancing is Gloria Steinem. We've talked to her on

this show, so maybe you guys should do it. Oh my god, can you imagine? Yeah, that would be fun. That would be fun, for real. Who's your favorite? Do you have certain jazz musicians or composers that you love particularly? Well, I had the good fortune to meet Charlie Parker, who of course was a great musician and Dizzy Gillespie also. Yes. I really can't keep up with the younger ones and the names of the younger ones. So I'm kind of old school, but I love young jazz also. Yeah, but those are iconic people that you got to meet. My goodness.

Where did you meet them? Can you tell us about that? Well, when I was young, I grew up in Stockton, California, which is close to San Francisco. So we would always go to San Francisco or to Sacramento to see and hear all of the great jazz musicians. Did you get a chance to have conversations with? I actually did. Yeah, with Dizzy Gillespie especially, but that was in New York City during the great jazz musicians. Did you get a chance to have conversations with? I actually did. Yeah, with Dizzy Gillespie especially, but that was in New York City during the great

boycott. When I met Charlie Parker, I was so stunned I couldn't speak. I was speechless. Really? All I could do was stare at him. And talk about Dizzy Gillespie. So he must have known who you were since you were leading the grape boycott. And I'm sure he was he was probably stunned to meet you, Dolores.

Well, he was wonderful. And I met him through, of course, Harry Belafonte is the one that introduced me to Dizzy. And Dizzy actually, then when he was playing, I think at the Vanguard, he actually took one of our boycott buttons and put it on his dashiki and told everybody, yes, everybody, you have to boycott grapes to help the farm workers. I love that. Just like your mom. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's a picture of you, Dolores, and we're going to put it up on our social media sites,

but it's the picture of you during the grape strike in 1965, and you are holding up the Huelga. Is that how you say it? Yes. You're holding that sign up, which of course means strike in Spanish. I think that is such an extraordinary photograph in so many ways, and it's sort of the real life version of Norma Rae, you remember that movie, Dolores, and she was holding up a sign that said union? But in this case, this is real life and it's you. Do you remember this version of yourself in this moment? Can you recall this moment?

I guess I can because we had been on strike for two weeks and I ran out of clean clothes and I had that one white wrinkled sweater, but it was the only thing that I had that was clean that I could put on. The photographer, Harvey Richards, was trying to take my picture and I was trying to avoid him. Why? Well, just because I had this wrinkled sweater on.

Oh, for goodness sake. That's hilarious. And I was standing on top of a car holding up that sign because there were people working in the field to bring to their attention that there was a strike going on. And so the picture became very iconic. And actually, I met the directors of Norma Rae at a party in Los Angeles and they told me that this is where they got the idea for Norma Rae. Oh, no kidding. Now, this I didn't know and we had Sally Field on the podcast and I didn't know this Dolores. That's so cool.

I love that. Can you tell us, si se puede is the phrase that you originated. And it became the campaign slogan for President Obama and we saw him thank you for it when you won the Presidential Medal of Freedom, which is extraordinary. Can you tell us the origin story of that phrase? There's a great story behind it and I think everyone deserves to hear it. Well, actually, in Arizona, they had passed a law that if farm workers went on strike or if anyone said, boycott anything, you could go to prison. Imagine.

Yeah, and we were working to try to overturn that law. So, Sasson had done a 25-day water-only fast. He did not eat anything, just to consume water and holy communion for 25 days. And as I was speaking to some of the professional people in Arizona, asking them to support us to overturn that law, they said to me, in Arizona, you can't do any of that. In California, you can. And my response to them was si se puede, which means yes we can in Arizona. When I reported that back to our rally that evening, everyone jumped to their feet and they said si se puede, si se puede. And so that's how it was born. It came from the universe. Wow. It came through the universe, into your brain, and out. Beautiful.

I think our listeners need to deeply understand the unconscionable working conditions for the farm workers when you first began. And can you talk about the rights that ultimately they got as a result of your activism? Can you just sort of break that down for everybody? As a result of the international boycott of California table grapes, it resulted in farm workers having bathrooms, toilets in the field, cold drinking water, rest periods, things that they never had, hand washing facilities, the right to have a union, the right to have a health plan under the union, so many things that they just basic human rights that farm workers did not have.

Of course, with the union, they were able to get unemployment insurance, pensions, etc., healthcare, but that they did not have this. They were able to get unemployment insurance, pensions, et cetera, health care. But they did not have this, and it was that simple act. You contributed to that, Julia, by not eating, by not buying those grapes. You contributed to that, and so did the 17 million Americans that didn't buy grapes. And this is what we have to learn, that if all of us work together, that we know that we can make it happen, that we have that power as people. Do you have any specific negotiating tactics, Dolores?

Well, as a negotiator, I was a go-between between the farm workers and the employers, and you're pretty much a translator. But the main thing I think is you have to give reasons why you need something. I'll give you an example. Please. To try to get the cold drinking water for the farm workers. The growers would say, oh, we put a cup of water out there and it would sit in the hot sun all day long.

And the workers had to drink from one cup. All of the crew had to drink out of one cup. Oh, boy. Well, that is not sanitary. So giving people or the employers, giving them the rationale, the reasons that explain to them why things have to change. Because a lot of that is just racism,

is discrimination, is making people feel belittled, like they're not worthy. And so, but when you would be, because you said, well, I was a translator, but you were obviously so much more than that. So you were trying to, I would imagine when you were going to the employers, you were trying to impart to them the humanity or lack of it that was happening. Exactly.

Can you imagine for the women, what it was like for women to be out there in the field without a toilet? Women would have to hide behind a blanket or a towel, and then consumers didn't know. Consumers didn't know that their food was being picked in the field. The farm workers did not have hand washing facilities. They did not have bathrooms, and that food is coming directly to your table. Right. It doesn't go through a car wash. Right.

But right now throughout the whole United States of America, not just in California, in Illinois, in New York, in Georgia, farm workers have the right to have a bathroom, a rest period, hand-washing facilities, and cold drinking water. And healthcare, I'm hoping? Well, healthcare, I'm hoping? Well, healthcare, well, it depends on what state you live in. If you live in California, yes, in California, even our undocumented people here have healthcare.

So speaking of your work on behalf of farm workers, brings me to Cesar Chavez. He really became the face of this union movement. And you've said that credit is never something that you were looking for, and yet I know very much that you care about women taking and receiving credit for their work. And I want to read something that you said that struck me as right on the money. You said, we've been so inculcated to be the nurturers and the servers that we don't think of ourselves as the decision

makers. It was something I had to learn. And how do you reconcile those things about the fact that Caesar really is, do you reconcile the fact that he is the face of that movement and yet you were there alongside him? How do you reconcile that? Well, actually, when we started the boycott and I went to New York to direct the great boycott, Caesar was back in California. people in New York City had no idea who Caesar Chavez was. We had to introduce Caesar. So I pretty much became the face of the boycott in New York and in Chicago also, because Caesar was back in California while we were running the boycotts. And so I actually became the face. So I have never, I have, I have been over recognized sometimes, I believe, you know.

Oh, really? Oh, good. I don't think, by the way, that's possible, Dolores. I don't agree with you on that. This is our first argument right now. I don't think you can be, I don't think you can be over recognized. Yeah, because I have probably about 14 schools named after me throughout the United States of America, parks, streets, you know, centers, etc.

So I think I have received a lot of recognition. Now the people that were not recognized besides Cesar and myself were the farm workers. We lost five people that were killed during the strikes. You know, we had people that were put in jail, people that lost their homes, all of these people that sacrificed, their names are unknown to anyone. It's time to take a break.

We'll be right back with Dolores Huerta in just a minute. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Let's take a moment to express some gratitude. We here at Wiser Than Me would love to thank all of the incredible women we've had on this show so far, and all of the women out there, our friends, moms, and mentors, who are constantly finding ways to inspire us. Life can get overwhelming, and whether it's friends, family, or even a therapist, it's important to recognize those who support us, and to remember to thank ourselves along the way, too. Remember, just doing your best is no small feat. Therapy helps us stay connected to that

sense of gratitude even when life feels chaotic. It creates space to reflect on what's going well, builds habits that nurture appreciation, and reframes challenges with a new perspective. If you've ever thought about starting therapy, now might be the perfect time. BetterHelp offers therapy entirely online, making it convenient, flexible, and designed to fit your schedule. Just answer a few quick questions to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time without extra costs. Therapy isn't just for those navigating big challenges. It can also help with everyday things like building positive coping skills and setting boundaries, so you feel empowered to show up as the best version of yourself. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash wiser today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterH-E-L-p.com slash wiser.

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listeners, Fred Ross was a famous community organizer in California. Dolores, I know you were trying to help a man who had had a stroke, I believe, and was asking for assistance. Can you tell what happened from there? Yes, I took him to the welfare office and tried to make an application, and they would not let him make an application. And when I went back to the welfare office and tried to make an application, and they would not let him make an application. And when I went back to the office and I told Fred Ross, senior, that he said, you go back to that office right now, and you demand to see a supervisor. Now, he did not say, I'm going to call them ahead of time. I'm going to give you a note to take to them.

No, he said, you go down there. And I thought, I can do that? And he said, Yes, you can do that. All public officials are paid by our tax dollars, and you can make demands of them. So I went back to the welfare office and I got all my courage together. And I said, I want to see a supervisor. And the supervisor came out, I thought, Whoa, I could do that. And to me, I want to see a supervisor. And the supervisor came out. I thought, whoa, I could do that. And to me, that was a moment of empowerment. But the way that Mr. Ross did that, you know, to make sure that I had the gear of my own

courage. Yes, that's right. Exactly. That was a big lesson. That's a big lesson. Yeah. That's a lesson that we have to say to people. You do not have to be a victim.

You can be the hero of your own story. And that's what we did when we organized farm workers to say, you can be the heroes of this story. And we had to go up against big ag, big oil, big banks, you know, President Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and we won. Delores, you know, it's funny because within the context of the story, of course, I am hearing the phrase, yes, you can. And Fred Ross said to you, yes, you can. Exactly.

And you brought it to life. Where does this courage come from in you? And talk about moments of doubt because I think, well, first of all, everybody in the world has moments of doubt. And I think probably women in particular are more prone to that. You know, it's funny because at the 2020 Democratic convention in which Biden was the nominee, obviously, I hosted the final night of it. And I'm going to tell you something, I was terrified, terrified, because it was different

than just performing, which is what I normally, that's what I do for a living, right? But it felt weighty, because of course it was weighty. It needed to be done well, it had to be entertaining, it had to be very serious, it had to tick all the boxes because so much was on the line. And I don't think I've ever been more frightened in my life than when I first went out on the stage and started to speak.

But for me, once I got going and I had a feeling of righteousness that we were doing the right thing, that this was for the country, that I felt very patriotic, and my fear subsided somewhat and my courage came up. And I wanted to hear from you about that, about those moments when you were, I'm not going to say paralyzed with fear because you never, it doesn't sound as if you ever were, but when you were really, how did you summon up the courage?

I think you explained the process perfectly. In my thinking, if I don't do it, then it's not going to happen. If I don't get out there and help organize farm workers, they're never going to have a union. I quit my teaching job in Stockton to go to Delano to start the union, knowing because I had been given that gift of knowledge of organizing that I can do this. And if I don't do it, then farm workers are always going to have to live in the same type of miserable conditions that they're working and living in.

My mother used to say that to us growing up, if you can help someone, if you have the ability, then you have an obligation and responsibility to do that. And so that has sort of been my mantra throughout my whole life. Yeah, and it sort of carried you through. I know you were very close to Robert Kennedy Sr. at the time of his death in 1968, and he was a fierce advocate for the work you were doing. Can you talk about that loss? Well, we knew that Senator Robert Kennedy, he was a champion for poor people, for people in Appalachia, for people

in Brooklyn, but for Stuyvesant, and that we had lost someone that would really stand up and speak for us. But at the same time, we knew that we had to continue because if Senator Robert Kennedy would have continued living, this is what he would have wanted us to do. So there was no way that we could stop the work. We had to do it in his honor. And so you were sort of, it was more sort of fuel to the fire for you. Absolutely. And I think that's a good lesson for our nation. Again, if they try to kill

our democracy, you know, that we have, we're the ones that have the responsibility to fight for it. And that means each and every person in democracy, the foundation of democracy is voting. Yes, it is, without a doubt. And I know that you've put your own physical self on the line so many times. I mean, you've been arrested so many times. There was a little bit of footage of the moment when you were beaten so severely. Oh my God, that was so grotesque and awful. And I, what was that recovery like for you? Can you talk about, just so our listeners understand, Dolores was beaten severely by the police and had to be hospitalized for many weeks, as I understand

it. Can you talk about that recovery and your family's response to it? and I'm assuming that that event made you more fearless, I'm assuming? Absolutely. Yeah, many people thought that I would stop my activism at that point in time, but I knew that actually if we espouse the whole nonviolent actions, then the way that we have to respond to violence is by showing that we can continue and that we're not going to let the acts of violence stop us. Because if we do that, that means that the opposition would win and we can't let that happen.

But what about when you were in the hospital? Can you talk about that and your kids? Because I know they gathered. Can you talk about the, shall I say, the stability and the comfort that you got from those around you at that time? Yeah, the response was overwhelming. We had so many flowers. We had flowers for everybody in the hospital. Really? Were you able to share them with other people?

Yeah, we were able to share them with everybody. That's nice. And the hospital, people in the hospital were so kind and they were allowing press people to come in. It was pretty overwhelming. But again, it kind of showed the support that we had. It gave me more determination to continue. Oh, that's so lovely.

I love that. Can you talk about your mom and the influence that she had on your family? I mean, I know she opened a hotel and gave temporary shelter to people in need. What was the dynamic like in your family growing up? Because it sounds like she was a very unusual person. Yeah, my mother set the values for our family. I mean, she was a great devotee of St. Francis of Xavier and St. Francis of Assisi, and she's the one that taught us that you, as I mentioned, that you have to help people if you possibly can.

And actually, my mother had a business, she had a restaurant, but one of her friends who was Japanese was interned after World War II, and my mother's friend asked, she asked my mother if she would take over her business, which is a hotel. My mother gave up her own business to help her friend and took over her hotel while she was in the internment camps. I hope that her friend was able to return. Yes, she did. They were able to return.

Unfortunately, we had the business, but we didn't have the building. And the people that owned the building refused to give it back to the Japanese owner but when it was able to help them start a whole new business they started a jewelry store. Oh wow how amazing. I'm jumping around here a little bit but people may not know this Dolores but the United Farm Workers which was established in 1962 is that right? That's true. Yeah it was one of the first unions to recognize women's rights as a core part of its platform, and you really pushed for that. You said, and you've said in the past, we will never have peace in the world until feminists take power. I want you to talk

about the power of women specifically and how it differs from the power of men. What do you think our secret sauce is as women? Well, I think women, we are more compassionate. We believe in sharing. We believe in cooperation and not competition. We are definitely against wars because we do not want to see our husbands, brothers, our children killed.

We don't want to see our children killed. We don't want to see other people's children get killed. And so this is why we have to do whatever we can to get more feminists elected. And when we say the word feminist, we include men, of course, that share the same values. And we want to end all of the discrimination that we've mentioned before. We can have a peaceful world. We have, you know, our world has so many resources and if we just shared the resources and if we could think again of sharing and not competition, but I think it is going to take women taking

power to make all of this happen. And is your experience as a woman and as a woman in leadership, has your experience differed tremendously? Like when you, for example, when we were setting up this whole situation to talk to today on the computer via Zoom and microphones and all of that, I noticed that there were, I think, three different women working in your office. And so I'm wondering about what is the, what's that vibe like for you? Because you've worked with just men, as I have, by the way, and then you've also worked with a lot of women. Do you prefer working just with women?

Is that your preference? Well, I think men always want to, I shouldn't say always, but... No, not always. I know. Not always, but men, they like to take over. They like to be in charge, you know? And it's kind of difficult for them to defer to women in leadership often. I think I've been fortunate in my life because I did work with Fred Ross Sr., who I believe was the first feminist man that I ever met in my life. With Cessat, I was able to challenge him when it came to the issues of having women in power.

And he would listen to my arguments because often I was correct and he wasn't. But I think it's so important that we have women, but often also to make women understand that they can use their power, that they have power, that they don't have to defer to others. You know, they have to believe in themselves. It's funny because in my life, which is, you know, what I do is obviously so different from what you do, but I've been in situations where the vast majority of people working on a project are women, and there's a discernible difference. I want to say that things move smoother.

More shit gets done more effectively, and there is an ease in place, at least in my experience. And I say this with the understanding, I mean, really have to put it out there. I love my men, I have two boys, and they are feminists, by the way. But that's been my experience. But when we're talking about women and women's rights, I think originally when you were much younger,

you were anti-abortion. But you've changed your position. And I know that you're Catholic. And I want to talk about how do you square your Catholicism with your shift on abortion and feminism and social political activism? How do you do it? Well, it took two great feminist leaders, Gloria Steinem and Eleanor Smale of the Feminist

Majority Foundation, to get me to that position, number one, to understand that just because you're a Catholic doesn't mean that you have to follow what the Catholic Church says. I mean, the Catholic Church at one point in time said that the world was flat and it was not round. Many people were executed because they didn't go along with that. And so it took courage to challenge the religion that you have been grown up in. And then of course, working with Gloria Steinem, Gloria got me to the position of choice, working with Ellie Smale, the president of the Feminist Majority Foundation. No, no,

it's not even about choice. It's about women's reproductive rights to have an abortion. And so, and this is what we do with so many women. And you know know when I speak to Latino audiences, many Latino women who are in the mindset that I was, I tell them about the great president of Mexico, Benito Juarez. And he had a saying that said, El respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz, in English, respecting other people's rights is peace. How many children you want to have or not have, that is your business. And the same thing, who you fall in love with, who you marry, if it happens to be somebody of your own sex, that is your business and nobody else's. And this is what

we have. And we know that women's reproductive rights are absolutely crucial for their lives. And once women, like myself, that, it changes your whole outlook on the world, your whole outlook on your own self, and on your own power. But Dolores, what did Gloria say to you that brought you around to this? Because, I mean, at this, how old were you and how many children did you have at that point when your opinion on this shifted? Do you recall? I think I had seven kids at that point in time. You were just starting out. Yes.

Did you ever think of having 12, Dolores, so you'd have an even dozen? I think my age did not permit that. Got it. Got it. But anyway, what is it that Gloria, how did she frame it for you? She probably talked to you about your right to have those children, correct? Right, exactly. That's why I say that with Gloria, and we had many conversations, God bless Gloria Steinem, we had many conversations, and she made me understand that it's a choice

that women have. It's a choice that women have. And so I went from Gloria's reasoning about choice to Eleanor Smeal saying, no, it's not a choice, it's a right. It's a right. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more wisdom from Dolores Huerta after this quick break.

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off your first order at meetmave.com slash wiser. That's spelled M-A-E-V. Go to meetmaev.com slash wiser to receive 20% off your first order. That's meet maev.com slash wiser. So you were married twice and you had a very wonderful relationship with Richard Chavez, who is Cesar Chavez's brother. It looks like when I was getting ready to talk to you that with your partners, they were all seem to be frustrated with your desire to continue to work. Is that true? Or not? continue to work? Is that true? Oh, that's true. But I had to, as you know, in relationships there are other issues.

Mainly one of guys like to cheat, you know. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and be abusive. So I think that was a part of my ending my relationships, you know. Yeah, from the very beginning, I mean, I always remained an activist. Got it. And so was that hard to extricate yourself from abusive relationships or unhealthy relationships? Was that a struggle for you? It had to have been. How could it not have been, right? Well, it was always a hard choice because, you know, as a woman you have children, you have to worry again about your income, etc. But I

think that, no, I think I actually felt pretty liberated when I made those decisions. Really? Yes. Wow. And so, and you continued your activism throughout all those relationships, right? Yes, I did. Right. Okay. Yeah, I believe in healthy divorces How would you say your divorces were healthy what what made them healthy what characterized them is so Well, they were healthy for myself Yeah, I believe that the women, you know, if they're divorces, if you're in an unhealthy, unhappy marriage, there's no reason why you should stay there.

I remember once a reporter asked me about that, and he said, well, isn't it unusual for Latina women to have divorces? And I said, well, actually, my family, it's a tradition. You know, my grandparents, my mother's mother and father were both, were divorces. My mother was a divorcee, and I'm a divorcee. All right, good. So you owned it, you owned it.

You embraced it proudly. And I think that that's great. There's no shame attached to it. So switching gears a little bit, at the very height of your activism, you had 11 children. Hey, what's the age span there, by the way? Actually, they're 20 years apart. Wow.

Yeah. And by the way, what about grandchildren? Do you have a lot of grandchildren? Yes, I have a lot of grandchildren. How many? Oh, you know what? I have my grandchildren and my great grandchildren, and I now have one great, great grandchild. Whoa, Jack, that's crazy.

But you don't know how many? No. I have to sit down and count them. That's a blessing to get to the point where you don't know, you have to sit down and get out a calculator to figure out how many grandchildren and great grandchildren you have. To answer your question, my first grandchild, her name is Danine, Danine Johns, and my daughter Juanita are the same age. Wow. One of my younger daughters are the same age.

That's incredible. That's incredible. How'd you do it? How did you manage having all, like, what were the mechanics? When you woke up in the morning, you had to feed these kids, or did you feed them? How did this, how did it work with everything that you had to do? You're on the road and how did it work? Well, I had to find somebody to help me with my children. So my thoughts, as you say, in the morning, I would wake up and think, okay, who's going to be babysitting my kids today? And in the early days, of course,

when I was teaching school, I had pretty much a permanent sitter that would come in and take care of my kids. Later on with the movement, I couldn't do that because I didn't have the money to do that. So I would have to depend on family and friends to help me with my children. And then in the farm workers movement,

we did set up a daycare because we had so many women that were actually there on the picket line. So we set up actually the first daycare for farm workers in the state of California. Really? Has that been set up for farm workers to date, to this point? Well, yes. Today, I think there are many daycare centers.

I shouldn't say many, not enough. There are daycare centers for farm workers now that are set up in the state of California for farm workers because they have to go to work pretty early. They have to be out there in the fields at 6 a.m. in the morning, and there are daycare centers for them. Not enough, and often, daycare centers that they can afford. In the farm workers' movement, of course, it was free for all of us because we were not working for wages, we were working for stipends, and so that was really

important. And it was not just myself, it was Cesar Chavez's wife Helen and all of the other women that were active in the movement. Was Cesar's wife Helen a good friend of yours? Oh yes, Helen was very, very strong woman. In fact, I like to say that Caesar never would have accomplished what he did because his wife was such a strong supporter. Really? And what did she enable him to do? Or let me put it this way, what did she do for him in her support?

Well, almost everything. Really? Well, she did almost everything for Sasson. He didn't have to do very much in terms of their own personal life, because she took care of everything. So maybe without Helen, there's no Caesar is what it sounds like to me. Absolutely. I mean, he had that support.

It was so incredible that he knew that he could do whatever he could, and that she would support him all the way. I've talked to a lot of women on this show actually who worked, who had careers outside of the home and who often felt guilty about their mothering of their children because they felt like they weren't or couldn't be as present as they should have been or needed to be. Do you, did you have that feeling or did you not have that feeling?

Yes, I do often and I know that's something that as mothers we have to worry about and that that is a sacrifice I think that we made. But we know it takes a village to raise a child. But it is so important to have women in power. Again, for all of the reasons that we've spoken about, that we as women, then we have to not feel guilty about getting others to help us raise our children. But Dolores, isn't it interesting to consider too that, you know, when men are questioned about their careers, they're not asked about their fathering or lack thereof, are they?

It's women who are. And so women carry a lot. And what specific advice could you give to women who are struggling with that balance? Well, I would say that we have to have faith in ourselves, number one, and then we have to have faith in other people, and we have to have faith in our children also. My mother was a working parent. I remember my mother coming home when she was raised, you know, gathering money to start her own business. She would work in the daytime as a waitress at night in the cannery, and she would come home and change

her uniforms. But she made us understand what she was working for. And we as children understood that. My own children, they grew up in the movement, they understand what we were working for. They knew that we were making huge sacrifices. My kids did not have the nice middle class life that I had growing up, but they understood that. And our children can be very resourceful. Kids understand that we can set the values for them and make them understand this is why we're making these sacrifices. And then of course, you have to get everybody to come in and help us raise our children. And we have to do this. This should not be maybe or should we know we have

to because we know that if we're going to save our planet from global warming, if we're going to save our humanity from wars and destruction. We women have to step up and we have to take the power. Okay. Write that down, listeners. No doubt about it. Okay. This is absolutely unrelated to all of this, but there was one question I had to ask you

because I was blown away by this fact about you. I understand, Dolores, that you have been to Burning Man not once, not twice, not three times, but four times? Is this the case? Yes. Mm-hmm. Okay. You have to tell us about your experience at... By the way, I've never been to Burning Man.

So you have to tell us your experience of going. Would you go for a fifth time? Absolutely. Absolutely. Burning Man a fifth time? Absolutely. Absolutely. Burning Man is a giant art show. This is what it is. Yeah. People have what they call the art cars.

They have these incredible, incredible vehicles that they make and they turn them into art pieces. There's beautiful standing art pieces out there that can only be created because some of them are so huge, like the Burning Man, the man that they burned himself, but then they do this, usually some type of a church or some kind of a religious object that they also make like a castle. And these buildings that they build and these art pieces are so incredible and so unique that you can only see them at Burning Man. So this is like a giant art show.

And then it's like a people's convention because they have all types of workshops, you know, for yoga or cooking or whatever you like. It's like a big playground where you can just play for the 10 days that you're there or if you just want to go for a weekend but just having fun staying up all night and then dancing all night it's just wonderful it's a great experience. Do you have a Playa name? Yes I think we did but I think it was for the butterflies the mariposas. Yeah. The butterflies and that was of course a tribute to all of our immigrant community. Do you camp when you go there?

Well, actually, no. I'm one of those. Because of my age, we take a trailer. Oh, okay. And there is a lot of dust, so I'd say for elder people like myself, I would definitely recommend the trailer. Okay. I have that to look forward to when I'm 94, Dolores,

I guess, right? All right. So we have at the end here, I'd like to ask you a couple of just very quick, easy questions. Well, I don't know if they're easy, but is there something you'd go back and tell yourself when you were 21, Dolores? Yes, I would say to my 21-year-old self, Yes, I would say to my 21-year-old self, again, never fear. Don't be afraid to make decisions and be true to yourself, be true to your heart. Listen to your inner voice and take the challenges that are there before you and, yes, go out and do what you can to help the world. Well, it sounds like you did exactly what you're saying to your 21-year-old self. Is there something that you would like me to know about aging, Dolores?

Well, I would just say, what I would say to my 50-year-old self is exercise more and take care of your health, because who who knows you might live to be 94 years old. Okay. And is there something that you're looking forward to? Looking forward to a more peaceful world. I think we can make it happen. Maybe not in my lifetime, but again, with feminist and power, we can achieve that.

We can achieve John Lennon's world. Imagine a world without borders, you know, a world where people all share resources and where we can fight for peace instead of wars and domination. Well, your mouth, God's ears. That's all I have to say. Thank you, Dolores. It was such a divine honor to talk with you, and I feel blessed. I also feel blessed. Thank you very much. And I so much enjoy seeing you often when

I tune into Seinfeld shows. Yes. And knowing that you bring so much joy and laughter and entertainment to the world. Thank you. Thank you very much. I hope you have a wonderful day. God bless you. God bless you too. Peace. Peace. All right. Dolores Huerta at Burning Man. I just love that image. There is so much to tell my mom about from this conversation.

I'm gonna dial her up on Zoom right now. Hi, mommy. Hi. Ooh, can you see me? Yeah, ooh, can you see me? Yes, I can. Okay, mommy, we talked with Dolores Huerta today. Well, I can't wait.

I cannot wait to hear about, I mean, I didn't know that much about her, but I certainly knew about the whole movement. Chavez is the one that whose name seemed to emerge. But I mean, she just must be extraordinary. She's sort of the perfect person for this podcast, because more people need to know about her in American history, frankly, her history. I'm trying to think, there are a few things that I thought you would find interesting. She's Catholic and had 11 children. 11 children. 11 children. Have you ever known anybody with 11 children?

No, no. The Catholic woman I knew had nine. I think that was, you know, around the corner from us. Yes. And I think there were nine children there, but I've never known, well anyway, nine is unthinkable. Nine is incredible. You know what I remember about that family? I remember, you know, my school bus would leave me off a few blocks away and then I would have to walk back home from the drop-off point. And I remember that it was one day and it was super, super hot. And so I thought, and by the way, just for our listeners,

I'm really talking about maybe one, two, three blocks, possibly four. And I remember going by their house on the way to our house and thinking I'd never make it because it was so hot and I needed to have something to drink. And so I knocked on their door and either she or her oldest son who once babysat us came to the door and I said, I'm so thirsty and I really need something to drink. And he said, oh, sure, can I get you some water? And I said, do did because I knew they had chocolate milk in their house. So me parched.

I was kindly given chocolate milk by the Catholic family. That's incredible. You're shameless. I mean, shameless. Mommy, chocolate milk is undeniably delicious, whether you're parched or not. No, no, I was going to say that's beside the point. Oh boy. Anyway, so back to Dolores. I asked her about being Catholic and being also a feminist and how did that square and what about, because originally she was anti-abortion when she was younger. And then she changed her opinion of it. And I believe it was Gloria Steinem had a huge influence on her regarding

that because Gloria Steinem's point of view was you made a decision, you have autonomy over your own body, you decided to have 11 children, that is your choice. And the same choice applies across the board, whatever your choice is. And I think that that was a defining moment for Dolores. And I'm wondering, in your life, have you had opinions that flipped completely like that? Have you had a way of thinking that was changed dramatically? 05.00 Well, I think not in this dramatic way. I hated the idea of abortion. 05.00 Oh, you did? 05.00 I did. But I mean, not as a policy sort of thing, I hated the idea of abortion. Oh, you did?

I did. But I mean, not as a policy sort of thing, but just the idea of it. It just gave me the creeps. And it wasn't until I think that Gloria Steinem began to talk about it as a process of choice. I would never have stood up against it, but I privately was, I found it abhorrent. So this was when you were younger. Yes, I wasn't schooled to think as much about choice. And so it was only later that I came to think about choice as being an option.

And so the idea of that being part of, that you choose your path as you go along. That you have control in that way? Is that what you mean? Yeah. That you have an agency in what happens to you. Yeah. You are an agent of what happens to you. Yeah, you are an agent of what happens to you. And has your understanding of that, was that sort of a slow process that came to you or was it, were there specific moments in which you realized you had agency or was this just something that happened slowly over time for you? I think I realized it through the feminist movement, through hearing the women talk. And just hearing that, and I can remember it was almost like a wake-up call for me.

It was like, I've never thought of that. I never thought of it that way. And I can remember at first I just thought, oh, they're so angry. And then it sort of began to sink in to me and I was a real sponge about it then when I opened up to it. Interesting. Okay, Mom, well, thanks for our conversation about Dolores and changing your mind. Yes, thanks for changing my mind.

You were part of that process too, you know, just the way you were living your life and your sisters. And so yeah, you brought me along by your coattails. I thank you and goodbye. Well, you're welcome and goodbye, love you. I'm trying to do leave and I can't. Is there no leave button? Uh-oh.

Mom? Mom, you closed the computer. Again, you didn't push leave, you just closed the... okay. All right, well, whatever. I think my mom is off the Zoom. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of Season 3 ad-free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple Podcasts app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me

podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zaraa Williams, Alex McOwen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of New Content, and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson.

Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Barber, Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Barber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music.

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