Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Leveling Up w/ Morgan DeBaun

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

Leveling the playing field is one thing, but leveling ALL the way up is another! And that's what we're on this week thanks to the change agent and multihyphenate herself, Morgan DeBaun! Sis is no stranger when it comes to betting on the underserved and underestimated. Her greatest hope for the generation of women to come, is that we never have to doubt ourselves or the choices we make. Stay tuned as this episode unapologetically lends itself towards independence, identity, and innovation! This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.com/Evolve online therapy + Zocdoc.com/WomanEvolve digital healthcare marketplace.

God can't bless you for ten to be or who you can care yourself to. He can only bless you and the lane that was created for you. I feel that for somebody. You don't need no itch, it's a two-unique boundary. What? I don't need your lights, I don't need your elevation. All I need is a God-party program that says all things, all things, all things. Child.

Child, listen. I can remember the first time it became evident that I was going to be sharing my story with other people besides myself. At the time I would not have called it a ministry, I would have said that I am just out here sharing my story. Then there was this moment where I was no longer sharing my story and I was ministering to people. Literally that word minister means to serve them. I was serving people who had similar backgrounds, similar hopes, similar fears as my own. And I made this bow to myself. I made this promise. And that promise was I want to be the kind of woman,

the kind of minister, the type of pastor that would have captured my attention when I was in the most lost state of my childhood. And while I have fulfilled that in many ways, I think little Sarah would be like, who is that? I also realized that as I look at the next generation, that they need more, they need something different. And I don't necessarily know that I can be all of what they need,

but I'm hoping that my life can be a template, something that they can look at and say, if she did it this way, then maybe I could edit, modify, twist, and change, and do it my way. I am talking to my fellow auntie and training. Can we talk about these aunties' dadesses that you all given us? Like, are we aunties and training,

or do we have the crown? Like, we are auntie certified. I have questions. Talking to my fellow auntie on the way, Morgan DeBon, who's actually about to become a mother for the first time. And we're talking about not just what we want to see happen in the next generation, how we want to serve them and how our lives can hopefully help blaze the trail for them as they are up and coming. But also, what are the implications of

being a woman of power and disgeneration? What does it mean to be charting your own way and defining your own identity in a world that has often tried to subject you to the roles that you should play? What I found so interesting about this podcast is though Morgan is undeniably successful, prominent, and intelligent. She has also allowed us to see outside of her Alpha female world, her Alpha female resume, who she is at her core as a woman on a journey learning, discovering, and feeling her way through. If you don't know who Morgan DeBon is, I have just put you on game in a way that you're just gonna thank me for later. But for those of you who don't know,

I'll just let you know that since she became the founder in CEO of Blavity, one of Forbes 40 under 40, one of America's up and coming best founders, she has found herself strategically consulting huge corporations, American Airlines, PepsiCo. She started so many brands, 2190, Travel Noir. She's quite literally a girl boss but a girl and a powerful one that that reminds us all that you don't have to pick between being leather or lace. You don't have to pick between soft or hard. You can be this beautiful combination of them all. And maybe just maybe that's what true feminism is.

I can't wait to share this episode with you. Let's get into it. Okay Morgan, I have to know, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Like how did the little girl you were turn into the woman you are now? How did this all start? You know, I got to start what I sang where I'm from and from St. Louis, Missouri. I grew up in the suburbs of St. Louis and you know, I lived in a cold sack. And my parents were high school sweethearts and my grandparents all lived within like a five mile radius of each other.

So I grew up around a lot of family and pretty standard family situation. My parents, my dad worked, my mom stayed at home and took care of me and my brother. And my parents always tried to make sure that I had every opportunity afforded to me. You know, they worked really hard. My dad worked multiple jobs so that my mom could stay home and even to just how they indoctrinated me into being my own independent woman. Even as early as when I was in probably like elementary school and I

would start going to the doctor, my mom would make sure that I spoke up for myself. So if the doctor was asking me a question like, how are you? How are you feeling? You know, usually they look at the parent and my mom would look right back at me and say, all right, go ahead. How are you feeling? What's going on? And speak up for yourself. Remember ordering at restaurants and the waiter to ask, hey, what does she want to eat? They wouldn't answer for me. So I think that that really taught me to,

from an early on, speak up for myself, understand what I want, how I feel, be able to articulate that, even if it feels weird or even if other people aren't looking to me to have a response. And clearly that's worked out for me today, to entrepreneur and as a leader. There's definitely some downsides I had to learn to win to pull back. Yeah. In high school, I got some feedback from my teachers that I should let other people answer the questions first, because I was always the first person to raise my hands.

that I should let other people answer the questions first, because I was always the first person to raise my hands. And that was when I was like, why should I fall back? Because other people are taking, like, don't know the answer. You know, so I had to, like, kind of work through some of my aggressive leaderships, like tendencies. Okay, first of all, I want you to know that your childhood doesn't sound very standard to me at all. Like it sounds very American dream is,

but I don't know anyone who's like, you know, cold as sack, both parents in the home, grandparents five, like this is giving American dream. Yeah, I got standard in that. It was standard for the upper middle class suburbia of Chesterfield Missouri, you know, which is a suburb of FIGLOS. Certainly when you look at the statistics of America, it's not the standard you're right. Even as idyllic as that upbringing is, your parents had enough wisdom and foresight to also equip you with this sense of independence,

but I'm even gonna say innovation, right? Because I think when you hear this, you know, I think American dream of a childhood, one would think that a daughter raised in that environment would then go on, find her own cul-de-sac, be five minutes within her parents and stay at home while the man works. And Morgan, you're very much though, not giving.

It's just not giving that. It's giving like girl boss, it's giving world changer. At what point did you ever feel, I guess, pressure maybe to recreate your childhood or to fall into what would have been, I guess, a stereotype of what womanhood should look like given that background being so idyllic. Yeah, it's interesting. I definitely did resist quite a bit this idea of like, I guess I had resentment to my mom a little bit of like, why didn't you do something?

Like, once my brother and I were kind of good, you know, we can drive ourselves to school, you know, you're 15, 16, I definitely had a lot of conflict with my mom because I just was kind of like, go do something, like we're good. Like, you did your job, it was a sacrifice. My mom has a master's in teaching, and both sides and my grandmother's had master's degrees and either teaching or nursing. So I've come from a family of working moms,

and I didn't understand fully why she just like didn't work. You know? Yeah. Not because of the money, but because I she just like didn't work, you know. Yeah. Not because of the money, but because I'm just like, what else are you going to do for the rest of your life? And I think that I've maybe over-confensated for that resentment early in my 20s by only working. And it wasn't until I hit my 30s that I truly understood the actual sacrifice

that she was making so that I could have what looks like an idyllic life. And my dad, you know, was the provider and worked crazy hours so that she didn't have to work. And I look back and say, all my clothes were from from Goodwill all of my costumes were homemade right When your kid you don't see that stuff, right, right, but now I'm like, oh man. This is How lucky was I? Yeah, you know to be balanced and I think now that I'll be having my own family soon I think now that I'll be having my own family soon, my pregnant, with my first child, I did move back to be five minutes for my parents. Oh yeah, I did.

I moved to Nashville, which is where they now live, because I wanted to be around my family as I transitioned into them aging and also me just trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life outside of work. And I don't think that I would have had the courage to leave LA and leave kind of the fast life to slow down and have a backyard and plants and all types of, if I hadn't had that role model of my mother. That's really, I love that, especially for a lot of women who maybe feel unfulfilled, sometimes are wonder if they are adding

as much value to the world as women who are blazing trails, like you are infiltrating systems that have historically been limited to men or white men. And like, what does this making these sandwiches and making these costumes like, do they really matter? And yet, when you were at a pivotal shift in your life, you pulled from that because, I mean, she must have taught you that it's possible

to have joy and contentment doing these things as much as you have in doing those things too. So maybe when we're in those different stages of our lives, it's not about how can I add the most noise with my impact, but how can I find the most joy and contentment to display for the people who are watching me in this season? You know who I think is doing a good job at that Myleek Teal. who are watching me in this season. You know who I think is doing a good job at that Myleek teal. Like I don't know if you follow her on Instagram,

but I've seen her, you know, she, I saw her girl boss, Aira, and then transitioning into motherhood and like giving herself permission to really just live fully in whatever the moment is requiring and bringing joy and satisfaction to that, which is, I mean, you have plants. You're a plant mom. I'm a plant mom. Yeah, absolutely. I think my leak actually was one of the women

personally who encouraged me to really reconsider how I was approaching my dating life early on when I was kind of entering that season of wanting to find my partner, wanting to be in partnership with another person. She gave me a lot of books that I should have read. She helped me rethink the definition of dating as an outful woman. And I'm super grateful for the advice that she's given to me and not the entire black female community. I mean, to your point, she has totally dedicated her life to helping black women reach

our full capacity. So very grateful for her. Okay, so let's rewind a little bit. So they tell you, stop raising your hand and give somebody else a chance to be smart. You gave us a little bit of a chance, but not much because after that, you take off into to tech is it was tech your first step. Okay, let me tell you something. For those of you who do not know, I am talking to an innovator, a general, a world changer in the world of tech. Her name is respected literally all over the world.

Morgan, can you help me understand like how would you define the lane that you occupy in tech? I'm really curious about it because as opposed to blending in with someone else's system, someone else's already in motion, you created your own lane. What made you do that? Yeah, when I was in college, I looked at a bunch of different careers

and wanted to make the most impact the fastest and be with innovators, with the people who were creating the rules. And so I moved to the Bay Area, which at the time was the hub of Silicon Valley and started working at a big tech company. And what I realized when I was there was, you know, these people are not smarter than us. Like these white and Asian men that are building the tools that we use for this podcast, the phones and apps that we use every single day, there's nothing special about them compared to us. The difference is proximity to opportunity and network and then having the audacity to

believe that you can be the one to build a billion-dollar empire. And I think that once I realized that there was nothing special about that and that gave me the audacity to dream that up for myself and our community. And that's the beginning of our popularity was built over nine years ago. Today, we've expanded our corporation that creates products and solutions for black audiences and black consumers, everything from helping companies hire black workforces through AfroTech

and our product talent infusion, which is a B2B subscription product, all the way to, of course, our media brands and our media portfolio, it's $219 million, travel, new R and home and texture. And it's just one giant ecosystem, but the black community is at its core. And when you go to Silicon Valley,

you will not ever find the black community at the core of the business and the building. Yeah. What kind of opposition were you up against to create something where the black community is at the core in an industry that doesn't necessarily even have any black faces in the parameters to say, you know, this is going to be the core. What was that opposition like? Yeah, it's much different than it was today. Today it's a lot different than it was back then in my day. So in my day, you could walk around San Francisco and see like three black people who maybe

one worked at Twitter, one worked at Salesforce, and like one worked at LinkedIn. So I was definitely fighting an uphill battle in terms of helping people understand the business opportunity. Everybody tends to agree that Black folks influence culture. Right, right. You know, they get it, right? When you talk about who are the top athletes, who are the top musicians, what's the top people influencing fashion, it's all going to be black. Yet it's still

a leap mentally for a lot of white folks to then say therefore black consumers and black people have an outsized impact on our spending habits globally. So that was what I was fighting out against. With the reluctance for people to acknowledge that yes, these people have power, but so much power that there's actually a business opportunity here to cultivate, embracing, empowering, and literally handing platforms over to black consumers to drive their own destiny and to elevate us. So it was challenging at times, but the people who got it got it. And ultimately I was able to raise, you know, under $13 million and build this company that's now over 200 people. over 200 people. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

Over the last year, my life consisted of a series of transitions, and what I know for sure is that the path of least resistance isn't always the one to take. At first, I couldn't tell if I was going in the right direction, but sometimes in life we're faced with tough decisions, and the path forward won't always be easy. That's why I lean towards therapy when tasked with difficult decisions. Hear me clear, sis. Talking to a therapist can support you during those seasons of uncertainty. So if you're interested in giving it a try, I want to recommend Better Help Online Therapy. It's professional, affordable, convenient, and effective. Having benefited thousands of people thus far, you do not want to miss your opportunity

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That's better H-E-L-P dotcom slash evolve. OK, so before the George Floyd incident and George Floyd murder in 2020, many corporations were hesitant to engage fully with any type of empowerment that would positively affect communities of color. with any type of empowerment that would positively affect communities of color. Obviously, we've seen a shift, and some people have not stepped up to the plate as much as they said. They would have obviously really made it a part of their

core values before then, though, which is when you were working where it wasn't necessarily open doors for someone who was so obviously going to be doing something for black communities. Even when you see what Arianne is up against with the affirmative action case like, Kate, I'm trying to figure out like how do you, well, I guess you've had it since you were a little girl, but you get to answer your own questions on a podcast. But like how do you get the courage to say, I am going to do this for black people, for the black community without,

I don't know, without investing into this paradigm of like code switching and respectability and you know, you got to get in the room first and then when you're in the room maybe you can bring another seat to the table. But you, I feel like you just busted the doors open and what is that? Yeah, you know, I think that it was in the beginning, I was trying to play by their rules. Okay. So I wore the startup uniform. You know, I had the black t-shirt with the blabby logo. I had the San Francisco boots and the jeans. I played the white boy stance. I used the revol vocabulary when I was pitching. I joined the accelerators played the white boys dance. I used their vocabulary when I was pitching. I joined

the accelerators that the white boys were joining. I saw press in the places where white people were going to be reading the press. I absolutely played their game. That didn't work though. I think that's what a lot of us have found out is like even if you try to play their game, you're still up against a lot of different other things. Ultimately, what I had to shift to, which I think is the case for many black folks is, I actually had to figure out who was going to fund me not because they believed in a huge value of the business, but because they believed in the change in the impact that our company could make along the way. So that's social impact investors.

And similar to Fearless Fund in Aryan, it's so good that you brought them up because this attack on companies and funds that are trying to level the playing field and provide equity and have big corporate donations and corporate investments for people who work at the corporate level trying to invest in these funds. This is a big problem because we've just got here. I made it very easy. like they could undo it very easily because we're not established enough in it.

Exactly. And more importantly, these types of things scare big corporations. Yeah. So for every other area and out here who's trying to raise their fund, it's not at her level yet. All these companies might be saying, you know what? Let's just not invest in the black girl fund. Yeah.

Let's not invest in the black boy fund. Or let's try to make sure that the funds that we're investing in are not dedicated to underserved audiences. Yeah. Of course, they can invest in black people, but they should not have allocated funds just for the underserved and underestimated. That's a problem. Okay, so I wanna find a way to ask this question

in a way that makes sense, but you know, a lot of these systems were set up to make sure that they benefited one particular group of people. They just weren't vocal about it. Like no one said that this is the, you know, PWI fun for, you know what I mean? Like nobody said that. Do you think, maybe I shouldn't record this

in it be anywhere. Like do you think maybe we still keep it going, but like we don't get to be as vocal about it. Do we play their game and still just serve our people the way that they did? I think there's a lot of people that actually do that. I think the older generation did that. They were really quiet about it. So I'm gonna be loud for them real quick. So like, there's rules for minority owned businesses that you can get access to certain government contracts.

get access to certain government contracts. And also certain corporations, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, American Airlines, they have to have a certain number of their supplier funds go to diverse businesses. This is where diversity certifications come in, like the NMSN DC. Our generation is not trying to be diversity certified. But our parents generation were all over those government contracts. I mean, they were getting

auto dealerships, they were getting manufacturing businesses quietly. They weren't running around on TikTok and Instagram talking about, I just got this huge contract, $200 million contract, $50 million contract from the government. Our demographic, our peers, look at me! With the money up to the end, like who's talking now? Money talking. I'm in part this figure. And I do think that you get the reaction that you're looking for, which is a lot of attention.

Yeah. Oh goodness. Okay, I'm going to leave that alone. I think the people need to know, because it's not new. You know, there have been systems to your point that have been set up to level the playing field. And I do think that Black folks have been taking advantage of those systems in the last 100 years. What is new is our

Power for information and distribution and us having our control of our narrative. Yeah Okay, so you know today's innovators are tomorrow's leaders as an innovator in your field when you look at as an innovator in your field when you look at the next generation, right? And I know that that's a little strange if you feel like I do like I what next generation like I'm still forget them kids okay, but I guess it's a reality where we are anti approaching if not auntie certified. When you look at this next generation what makes you hopeful and what makes you cautious? The next generation is incredible. We've dealt them a pretty challenging hand. They're going to have to deal with climate change in a way that we're only dealing with in our 30s, 40s.

And as we age, they're going to be dealing with that when they are in high school and college. They are dealing and holding accountable companies that have terrible labor practices. You know, you see that with Sheen or Cheyenne, I don't know how to pronounce it. I know Sheen. It was Sheen for me for the longest, and I told me I was saying it wrong. I mean, I was ordering from them until I saw all the TikToks and all of the conversations around their practices. And I said, I just didn't know.

But of course, I should have known, because this pricing doesn't make sense. Right. So I think that they are more educated, more informed, and more unapologetic about social issues. And whereas maybe it took us a little bit longer to find our voice, they're starting like way younger. It's true, my daughter is 13.

She's in the ninth grade. They're reading to Kill a Mockingbird in her class and the teacher said Negro and she hit the roof. And I was like, Kinsie, just so you know, like, you know, I can go up there, but I'm telling you just the inward that we really like to cut up about has a hard ER on it.

You know, this one, you know, though it makes you uncomfortable, it was a little bit more acceptable decades ago. So I don't know if I'm going to be, because she's ready for me to like call the end of the bloke. Yes, what are we doing? She's like, I don't care. It makes me uncomfortable.

And as one of the only black girls in the classroom, he should have enough comment on her. I'm like, and I'm with you, Harriet. It's just the thing here. The thing is that like you're asking him for empathy. You know, I think that it is about empathy, not morality. And I just want us to be like really clear on that. And she was like, I'm talking to the principal.

I was like, yes, man, they are. She's like, she's stick to her. She stuck to her guns. And I think more power to her. Yeah. And I think that the children and the young adults that are coming up, things that we said were, you know, Negro is the word that we might say randomly playing just one of our friends. Right. They're not doing that. No. She's like, now he's saying the word and I don't know if I like that better or worse. Like, what can he say? Can't just tell me.

She wanted the disclaimer. She does. She does. She does. She's like, I'm about to say there's some words in this book that we do no longer. She's like, she wants the whole thing. I'm not mad at her. I agree.

That is the best in class, right? Yeah. And our parents, my mom would have looked at me like, I was crazy if I had her go into that white suburban public school. Sorry. There's no, but I think it speaks to your point though that they are really, you know, they're really convinced about where those lines are and they don't mind speaking up about them.

When you're raising your daughter, how much of what you experience will you model for her and where you're going to push the envelope a little bit? So I'm having a son. Oh, your son. Okay. Okay. Oh goodness. Okay.

That's like, it's totally different. Yes. Okay. It's different. I wanted a boy. So I'm grateful that guy gave me what I requested from him. But I am already hyper conscious of the fact that I live in a red state in Tennessee. And as a wealthy family relative to Tennessee, as a wealthy family relative to Tennessee, I'm worried about his experiences and exposure within the state that I chose to live in. To the point where I'm like, I don't know that we'll actually wind up. Really? To big boys' school here.

No. I don't know. I just don't trust it. People are really biased, and I just think that he might not have the full opportunities to leap from myself and his father. Like he's gonna grow up, not with his mom, making his following custom. Yeah, yeah, she knows how to buy them though.

She will get them though. She will get them sponsored. More importantly, not even bought. Say cheese. Yes, gift it. So I just don't know how to handle that because this is our first generation in our family where our opportunities and our privilege are already exceeding kind

of where my own parents are. I'm curious actually from your perspective, I feel like your family is incredible, multiple generations, how have you navigated your children being humble and knowing what hard work is. And it's not just normal for a mom and dad to go to Italy every summer. But maybe it is. Right, but maybe it is. I tried to remind them often when they say things

that I think would be, when they complain about what would be someone else's blessing, I try to be intentional about letting them know. Not in a like there's kids starving somewhere in metallurgies. I just want you to know that like what you just did is a privilege to be able to say, you know, that when they came to clean today they didn't get underneath my bed. You know what I mean? Like they could have not cleaned it at all. Like you should have been cleaning it yourself. Like just reminding them of how different their life is to compare to most people.

I think we've done a really good job of not just having them socialized with people who have similar experiences, but people with diverse experiences. Whereas I think part of upward mobility would suggest that we make sure that they're in specific like debut time programs and they're at this technology technology club.

And though I think those are great, I think there's something to be said about them being at the Boys and Girls Club, like at the YMCA, balancing this reality. And when they're young, they can make friends with anyone. They learn that very easily. Like, I got friends here, I got friends there, and it teaches them to be respectful

of different people's lives and environments, but then when they get older, they're able to pull, they're able to see the disparity for themselves, and to really live in the consciousness of how much of a blessing it is. So my son was about, and I put him in like he was in theater camp and then we would take you know nice vacations, but he was probably 16 or 17 when he was like, mom, our life really is different.

And I don't really know which group I am most like. And I told them you're like both of them and like neither of them and you need that. And so I think exposures everything. And I think especially when you've come from, like I was born on food stamps, my parents definitely pulled up by the bootstraps. But I think we have this inclination then to like,

we are going to Italy ever summer and you are going to learn three languages. And you are, you know what I mean? We want to equip them with as many tools as possible so that they can exceed or at least be equal to many of the people that they are going to be in relationship with, especially in their schools and stuff. But I think also making sure that we give them the broad world view, not like

even in a charity way, but just in a real human nature sense of like what it means to find joy and happiness and all of these different types of life. I think it's really important that younger you can do it the better before they have their own bias or before someone projects it onto them. Yeah, I think that's good advice. I mean, I'm thinking about, do we want to live abroad in another culture? Because I think American culture just lends itself to just more and more and more.

Bigger, bigger, bigger, very show offy. I've been spending a lot of time in Costa Rica. My partner and my dad are in Nigeria right now for a few weeks. I'm like, I don't know. It's just, it's one of those things that I'll have to learn as I go, I'm showing me mistakes. It was my first time going to Italy

when I went for my birthday this summer and this is going to sound maybe ignorant. But like, because I mean, like I've been to Mexico, I've been to the Caribbean, you know, but I've never, I've been to Mexico, I've been to the Caribbean, you know, but I've never, I've been to London, but because they're still speaking English, like it doesn't really feel like you are somewhere else. When I went to Italy, like to see people who look like regular white people I went to school with, speaking Russian, speaking Ukraine, I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot. Like, it's not just us over here.

America really is such an island. Such an island. And like, it's not necessarily better over here. No, I mean, Italian way of life is so chill. Like, coffee and go for walks, walk everywhere and organic. Like, I went to Italy this summer, this past summer, and I'm pregnant, and I feel like I lost weight.

Wow. The kids the food, like it's different. And I ate pasta every single day. And I was not bloated. I didn't come home feeling sick and I did not gain any weight. That's right. And you probably watched so many more stocks

than you would be in at home. So yeah, since I think that worldly point of view is something that I'm looking forward to incorporating into my son's life more so than it was in my life at a younger age. Okay, I want to ask you a relationship question. And I'm going to use my 13 year old daughter as an example again because sis is like, I call her a bootleg feminist because she's like playing football with the boys but like she also does not want that check split.

She's like, when I go on a date like mom, I just want you to know like, I'm not that much of an independent woman. I still want him to pick up the check. When you think about the future of females, the future of women and what's now, because of women like you, and because of voices that have really made it obvious that the voice of a woman changes things, but also the reality that many of the women who blaze those trails are entering their soft-grow era, and they want to balance,

they want to be able to be vulnerable What do you think about the next generation of women's responsibility or the woods that they're gonna have to navigate as it relates to identity and not being boxed into either version of what it means to be a woman Good question I think I've struggled with this on my own just trying to figure out what I wanted to do and how much of societal norms I was going to adapt. So I'm struggling with it right now because I'm not married and I'm also very successful. So, it's a really interesting thing. I had a lot of peace about it. There was a choice, actually.

We chose to do this now versus later. And I didn't second-guess it until I started interacting with family members. My own brother was like, so when is he going to propose? And I was like, oh, are you concerned for me? Like, you know, first I was annoyed. It's a mapping problem. Sure, yeah. But then I like had a compassionate mindset and said, oh, I think he's concerned.

And he was. You know, he's like, he's lucky to marry you, but like, is he? I was like, yeah, we're good, like everything is fine, you know, and so I think that my hope is that the next generation of women never have to doubt themselves and the choices that they're making and that the choices that are making freely. I have had to work back through like grounding myself and be like, not good, like I'm not going to project the pressure from people in my family or people on the internet into my own relationship, which I'm very happy about and happy about what we're doing. But it hasn't been easy. So my hope is that for the younger generation, it all but it hasn't been easy. So my hope is that for the younger generation at all, they might have to worry about that, that they can really feel free to do what they feel is best.

And I think feminism is about whatever you want to do, you can do. So if you want to play with the boys and have them pay for dinner. That's fine. More penalty. You know, and even when I think about our generation and some of our peers, there's a lot of incredible women that I know want to have children. They're getting 35 plus because they spend a lot of time building these powerful empires and growing their careers, but they can't find the right match for themselves. And they're currently struggling with,

do I have a child on my own? Do I lower my standards? And I think a lot of the, if society didn't view women who choose to have a baby on their own a certain way, I think a lot more women and our peer groups would have already been at babies and my children and built their own family dynamics.

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about marriage versus starting a family? Is it is it the well, they someone told me there's P in the dating pool. So So I can confirm. I did hear that. I can say it's been about 10 years since I was in there, but I did see something yellow floating around, but I wasn't sure. But it sounds like we have confirmed. There is a little urination in the Z-A-N pool. But what do you think it says about marriage that, you know, we're willing to start families without it? Oh, he got a lot of questions. Talk about marriage.

That is half for it's it's 50 50. Some of them like dip and they told in the water trying to figure out if they trusted or not. Other people are like, Kojik and they they just don't throw some oil on their phone and mess it up. Everything's going to be fine. I just went to an all girls' Catholic school. Okay.

Disappellion. And I haven't listened to you since I lived in a way and went to one church. Okay. There it is. All right. Foundation. Okay. Okay.

So I think that marriage is a construct that was taken advantage of by men and institutions to control women. And I think that we are breaking out of the control from those institutions and the patriarchy in terms of the expectations of a married woman versus a woman in relationship who's not married. That's my perspective. You kept it short, you kept it sweet, it was good. But for real, I'll give you an example.

People are talking about girl dinners on TikTok. That was like a big trouble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, all the TikTok philosophy kind of feminist women are like, you see, if we didn't have this mental labor of a woman to make this dinner, we would all just be like fine.

Yeah. Yeah. And I agree with them that there's a lot of mental load and labor that goes into a marriage and the expectations of women in marriage that as a single woman or a woman in a partnership where you're not necessarily married, that isn't necessarily there. Because you have the agency and the ability to walk away. Kind of. Right.

Cut. I agree with. I can see what you are saying. Let me get my, let me start. I'm sorry. Right. Let me. Let me. I'm always like.

I agree. I think even for communities of faith, they have made a woman's value come down to basically is she married. Like I cannot say that within churches, even as young girls, you know, outside of like finding your purpose and maximizing your gifts and your talents and using it as a reflection of God's image on the earth, it's like find your husband, don't have sex before marriage, and it makes everything about a woman's body, her sexuality, and ultimately,

its responsibility to her husband. And so I understand what you are saying. I guess, and then that's just Christian, within this Christian eco-sphere, right? That doesn't include just this Disney eco-sphere of finding Prince Charming. And so there is a lot of pressure on womanhood to find marriage in a way that should complete her picture.

But there are elements of control. And I see it as I can see it. I'm using words like Morgan. I can see it as a construct for some. Like, like, y'all, I hear some when y'all write this letter, not for everyone. Ag like y'all, I hear some when y'all write this letter, not for everyone. Like, y'all, see this ring when you hear some. Okay.

And I do think that there is a desire to really experience liberation. And I think if you can be liberated and experienced love, which I have, then I think that that is more appealing than the idea of the responsibilities that come with it. I think that that is more appealing than the idea of the responsibilities that come with it. I think that's beautifully said. And I aspire to be married. I wanted to be a wife. That was a choice that I also made, even talking to my league and doing some of my own healing and readings. And prayers was like, okay, yeah, I do want to be a wife.

And making an intentional decision to pursue that. And I see my parents now as they're aging, and I see my partner's parents now, who have also been in relationship and married since they were, you know, in their early 20s. And I'm like, yeah, this is the right move. You know, it's more than just this phase of creating life and this initial foundation, it's like, you know, there's 60s going in 70s and it's just a

different type of love and dynamic that I aspire to. I mean, I won't be working forever. Yeah. You know, so that was really what said, took me over the edge to say, yeah, I think I want to be a wife. I think I'd, yeah, let's do it. How long have your parents been married? I'm 33, so 36 years. My parents have been married 41 years and seeing them survive the ups, the downs, the chaos, the joy has been.

I see that as a privilege because I don't have a lot of friends whose parents are still together or were ever together. And so I see it as a privilege to walk into a house and to have both of my parents there. Like I don't take that for granted. And my dad says that when we got married, we thought that we were building a life together. And now that we're in our 60s, we know that we're dying together.

What are you saying? What are you talking about? What's in that, you know, like, what is that? Not like, P.T., I want us to live, but look at us, we die together. You know what? Look at us, you stand for a long time. Okay, you take your little friends.

Look at that. But I think there's, but, you know, they had, they had all the right things, you know what I mean? It wasn't, they didn't go into it with BS. They didn't, you know what I mean? They didn't go through, I'm divorced, right? So I don't think that you just stay together so that you can one day say we're dying together

because you might be dying together staying with that person. That's right. So I do think that when done well, when done from a place of openness, empathy, and wholeness, that beauty is a unique partnership between two individuals who get to experience God's love through the person they're building a life with.

I agree, 100%. And I think the legal marriage or the spiritual marriage or however the future generations want to decide what it looks like for us, it's the traditional marriage definition. But I think in the future it might look different. Yeah, that makes me hopeful. I tell you one thing that I do, so you're going to have a test, right? Because my test as I am raising my daughters is like whenever they're like one day when I get married, one day when I have a baby, I won't play with baby dolls and I'm like mine then briefcases because I'm like sis, I just want you

to know like I'm constantly trying to like get my you know some blog books like let's branch this out a little bit but like your role as a mom and raising a son that is not complicit with patriarchy. Have you thought at all about? I thought about it a lot. Okay, what's the, what are you thinking? I, I'm thinking about a few things. One, what is his relationship with his mother going to be? Who will I be as his mother, which should be a woman who is not brazzled or dazzled by

anything superficial, someone that holds him accountable to his values and not shared values as a family unit. He will have the privilege of having a mother who is relatively powerful, you know, and I think that he will, I will have to leave by example on how to use your power and your privilege and your platform for good, and that means bringing everybody along with you, not just the ones, the people that are convenient. You know, I have been hurt by the boys club many of times, and I do not want my son to do that. At the same time, I have to go through my own therapy. I was actually thinking about I need a new type of therapist because I'm sure there's things that I don't like about men or I don't like about how I grew up. As relates to how boys treated me or how men treated me differently,

that I want to make sure that I'm not implicitly putting on him. Right. Yeah, just do the same. So I just, you know, first things first is getting birth. Yes, let's just start there. We will do the brainwashing once he gets here, you know? But I'm open to feedback and advise like I mean books, places, things, I mean we're thinking about his name and even just like he should have a different name or like should we treat him in the same way

that I would have the same intentionality of raising a daughter. Yeah. And I think the answer is yes. I agree. I totally agree. I will say honestly, parenting is the most exhausting thing you've ever done. And I don't even mean the newborn stage of it. Like, I hated it when my kids were young, my mom would be like, this is the easy part, this is the easy part. And now that they are, you know, teenagers, adults,

like my son is 20 PT and are blending a family, the oldest is 27. I recognize that trying to help clear the lens of their perspective about themselves, about the world, and to hope that you're doing it right without projecting yourself like it's all a crap shoot. I've just learned to apologize with my seven year old. I've done a lot of work of trying to give her the vocabulary, emotional vocabulary that I didn't have then to not devalue her stress and her experiences. And yet I still have days where I'm tired,

I still have days where I get annoyed, and then I have to go and apologize, which my parents would have never done. Like apologize. Do you have a roof over your head? What am I, what am I apologizing for? I don't think I have an apology until I was about 27. Yeah, no.

It's a thing that like now my dad says he's self parenting which I'm like, it's not, that's not what it's called. So you're not doing a good job at that. It's just something I'm making up for some terminology. But be patient with yourself and just remember, you can edit. You can edit. You can edit.

There is nothing that you have to be married to and there's nothing that you can't go and rewrite, especially when they're young kids, because I would say even adult children, when you think about people who have had difficult relationships with their parents and they're like, if that person just got it, it would heal everything. There's no damage that has been done

that cannot be edited with empathy, compassion, and a real desire to listen to the other person's experience. I mean, I received that. I'm praying. Thank you. This was great. This one by so fast. Yeah, so fun. One thing that I have taken away from this conversation that I hope you take away as well is that our actions of today definitely hold the power to shape the legacy we aim to

leave. Morgan, you are the ultimate. I called you a girl boss. You are a boss babe and I cannot thank you enough for the knowledge you poured into myself, into the women connected to this podcast. Thank you for telling your truth, no matter how normal or abnormal it may be. We feel a little less alone because you opened up. Hear me when I say we honor the work that you are doing. If you're listening to this podcast, I want you to know that we honor the work that you're doing too. Though we may not know all of the nuances connected with you being who you are, I want you to

know that you matter. Not just to us, but to the generation that is coming up after you as well. Continue to blaze that trail, trust your core, lean into God's truth and trust that. You're the hope we've been looking for. I'll talk to you next week. you