Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - Radical Relationships w/ Angela Griffith

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

The following episode contains adult themes, sexual content, and strong language not suitable for all audiences. Viewer discretion is advised, so don't say W.E. didn't warn you! Sis, today you are in for a tiiimmmeee with Christian Sex Therapist, Angela Griffith. She teaches women and couples how to break free from toxic purity culture with a twist of humor & a hint of God! Hang onto your wigs and side-eyes as Andrea and SJR take us on an educational journey towards becoming MORE radical—in our bodies, in that marriage, and dare W.E. say...the bedroom?

God can't bless you for ten to be or who you compare yourself to. He can only bless you and the lane that was created for you. I feel that for somebody. You don't need no itch, it's a tea you need boundaries. What? I don't need your lights, I don't need your validation. All I need is a God party for me that's there for all things. All things, are things.

Try. Most of the time you listen to this podcast and maybe it's a little bit adult and that we talk about things that only adults can truly understand. Maybe we're talking about building a business, we're talking about finances, maybe we're talking about going to therapy. This one is actually a dog. As in clear the car clear, you might not even want your mother around when you hear this podcast because we are about to have a conversation with someone that listen, hit pause, hit pause because when I finish telling you where we're going today, I just want you to know this is for the grown women only.

Okay? I know you and your teen girl may listen sometimes. I think you may want to listen first before inviting her into the conversation. It might be something that you and your husband want to talk about, but maybe it's something that you listen to first. Okay?

So I'm giving you a chance to hit pause. Can you find it? Oh my gosh, find the button, turn it down, find your phone, is it off? Are we off? I hope it's off, because here we go, baby girl. Have you ever heard of a Christian sex therapist, child?

I just got finished talking to one. And I need a nurse. I need a pulpit nurse. I feel like I need to be anointed with oil again, but also I feel kind of free. I don't know. It's weird, it's confusing, but I am dragging you into it with me.

Growing up, there were only two conversations we had about sex. Don't do it and don't do it. That was in church, though. When I was listening to music or watching things on TV, there were only two messages being shared there, and that was, get it as fast as you can and get it as fast as you can. The paradox of those two messages have often left those of

us who grew up at this intersection of culture and church or culture and faith a little bit confused about how do I have a sexuality that feels liberated and I'm confident and I am open to anything that can happen within the context of me and my husband. But also, I don't want to feel ashamed or I'm still trying to work through the reality that what I know now about my body and my journey is so much different than what I knew then. Maybe your years down the road and your body has changed and you're wondering, I don't

even know if I could tap into that version of me that first was doing things that I said I was never going to do. Now, this is tired and since it's got nothing left, no matter where you are on your journey, I believe that we're going to have a conversation today that is going to be empowering and lightning. And if you're like me, you're going to clutch your pearls a little bit. Now let's be clear. I did not think I was approved until we got about five minutes into this conversation and I said maybe just maybe I do have some pearls up underneath this leather after all. But it was an incredible conversation with Angela Griffith.

Angela Griffith, I found her on TikTok. She is a Christian sex and intimacy coach from Ohio. She and her husband have been married for over 20 years and she teaches people how to have good sex with their spouses all While bringing humor and a godly perspective to her educational component. I am telling you She's definitely going to be one of those people that you want to hear from over and over again She shares some things that I've never heard before some things that I want to research and explore on my own It may not ring true everything she says for you and your experience, but I think it's always empowering when we just hear what other people are thinking and how they are navigating the world. So baby girl, prepare yourself.

We're going there. I can't wait to hear what you think about this episode. Let's get into it. hear what you think about this episode. Let's get into it. Hi. Hi, how are you? I'm doing great. Thank you. How are you? I am so honored that you invited me to speak with you today. Thank you so much. My pleasure. I saw your content on TikTok and I was like, we need more. We need to understand what's happening.

I completely agree. Have you been blown away by the response on social media to your work? It. That is a double edge sword of a question. I know, right? Okay. Completely blown away by the support that I have received.

But I have also been blown away by how very angry people have been. In fact, my TikTok, where you found me, where I had over a hundred thousand followers, was removed from the platform last week. No. Because I made an individual angry. I am still on TikTok. I have backup accounts upon backup accounts and I'm working on getting my original account restored by the anger of people hearing the messaging of healthy sex and Christian marriage is, I was not anticipating that at all. Okay, so why do you think there's been so much anger in connection to your content? I am challenging what has been the status quo in the evangelical church for years upon years, decades upon decades. And that when anything challenges the system,

when anything challenges the status quo, people are going to be afraid. And when people are afraid, they get angry. Yeah. Okay, so you have to take me back a little bit. Like how do we even arrive to the inner realization that part of your calling part of what you're supposed to do in the earth is to begin to help people become more

comfortable having healthy conversations as it relates to sex and Christian marriages. I have always had a challenger personality from day one. That was just who I was as a little kid. And it's not always comfortable growing up with the challenge or personality and realizing like you have to figure out how to challenge people in healthy ways, right? And not just obnoxiously. And so I grew up in a very small town and good girls from small towns didn't go to school to become sex therapists, right? Good girls from small towns went to school to get their MRS degree.

So being a good girl from a small town, I went to college, I got my degree in religion and psychology, and just a few weeks after graduation, got my MRS degree, which is getting married. I continued to be absolutely fascinated with human sexuality. And the more I studied human sexuality, the more I realized that what we have been taught in the Evangelical Church is not what God wants for his people, right? Think about all the messaging that we have received from purity culture, from the pulpit.

We've heard pastors say things like, if you don't have enough sex with your husband, he's gonna cheat on you, so wives, make sure that you are satisfying your husband in bed. Well, I don't know what by well you're reading, but my Bible says that men are supposed to use self-control in all areas of their life. And that men are supposed to love their lives as Christ left the church. So how does that align with that sort of messaging? And a couple of years ago, I was in my ministry

team and the team was like, you know, what are we going to do when our kids all grow? Because we're all in a season of young kids. I was like, I think when I grow up, when my son grows up, I want to help people have better, healthier sex lives. And God laughed. And he's like, bet, you're going to do it now. And he's like, okay, Jesus, I'll do it now. And I started the TikTok and it just blew up immediately. People are so desperate to learn that sex doesn't have to be an obligation, that sex is supposed to be a celebration of intimacy that is already in existence.

Okay, so you have to explain to me like what is like, I don't even know where to begin. I don't even know where to begin. I don't even know where to begin. Because I think whether you, when you, when you, I'm going to be honest, when you say evangelical church, even though I think from a mainstream perspective, I think anything that's church, they kind of lump into this category of evangelical church, I think being in a church culture helps me to understand that there are, you know, different, I won't even say denominations, but different sectors of church, right? We all have different beliefs and different views and everyone's got a different taking

perspective on most things. But I do know certainly that whether you grew up, I'm assuming that your church was maybe predominantly white. My church experience has been predominantly black. And I still think that this topic of sex, no matter where you are on the aisle, seems to be a little bit foreign in taboo. It's basically like, don't do it. Don't do it.

Then when you get married, make sure you do it. But still don't all the way do it. And it's like, I've had so many women who saved themselves, saved their virginity for marriage. And then they got married and they were unsure, how do I even learn to undo this framework that made me think it was evil, made me think it was wrong, or women who didn't save themselves for marriage. And then they get into a committed relationship

with their husband. And they don't even know, how do I make it sacred after it's been so common? And so I have many questions for you and I don't know if I just said anything that may have struck anything in you, but maybe we can dive a little bit deeper into this conversation. Yes, so what we know statistically is that purity culture messaging, when women receive purity culture messaging, they are at higher risk for experiencing vagimism when they get married and start to engage in penetrative sex with their husbands.

And so for someone who might not know what vagimism is, it is a condition where the woman's vaginal canal, her vulva, when when her husband tries, this is going to get really graphic for a second guys and just fair warning. When her husband tries to enter, tries to penetrate, her body is going to clamp down and it's going to stay, they'll shout that pass and it's going to make it extremely painful for her to be able to engage in any sort of penetrative activities because of that psychological damage that has happened from purity culture messaging. And that's a direct psychological impact that we can prove statistically

from the messaging that has been preached in youth groups from the pulpit, all sorts of things. So we know when you tell a woman, sex is dirty, sex is bad, don't think about it, but go get married and you're supposed to just flip a switch and be okay and hop into bed and do all of the things. The mind can't make that transition. And so now we have physical consequences for messaging that has been preached.

Wow. Can you define for someone who's maybe unfamiliar what is purity culture? So purity culture a lot of people get really angry when I say that we need to abandon purity culture teaching because they think I'm saying that it should just be a free for all and nobody should save themselves from marriage. And we should just hand condoms out to teenagers and pair them up and send them into a room. And that's not what I'm saying at all. Peerity culture is a very specific set of teachings that were primarily popular in the 80s, 90s, early 2000s.

It started to taper off in recent years, but it's things like girls are responsible for any man's last. So there are books out there that were written geared for preteen girls, so eight to 12 years old, telling them, don't show your belly because grown men will be tempted to stumble by seeing an eight year old's belly. Like, and we're putting that responsibility on eight to 12 year old girls. That's a very specific peer culture teaching.

Things like that we're taught in youth groups, things like taking a stick to gum and saying this is your virginity and then chewing it and spitting it out and saying, do you wanna give your future husband this chewed up piece of gum because if you have sex before marriage, that's what you're doing. It made a person's worth their virginity.

It idolized and fetishized the virginity of the individual rather than focusing on the heart condition. When we focus on a set of rules and purity culture was all about a set of rules in order to control behavior And so when you focus on those rules and trying to control behavior rather than trying to capture the person's heart You're gonna miss the mark every time and that's what purity culture did I'm yeah, that's interesting. I had my son as a teenager I was 13 when I got pregnant. And I know firsthand that instantly,

I'm like, your damage goods, nobody's going to want you. Like, you ruined it all. And there's like evidence who can't even hide it. And I think a lot of what I did experience had a lot to do with this idea that like, I can remember talking to someone after I had my child about like, oh, I hope one day when I have my sweet 16, this is what I want.

They're like sweet 16s are for virgins. That's what makes it sweet. And so I do think that there is a lot of messaging, whether it's taught in a book or told little girls at a young age, like you're being fast, that does reduce us down to our bodies. Interestingly enough, in a way that we demonize music or movies for doing, when we send this messaging even from spaces of faith, it does reduce a woman again, back down to her body. So how do you zoom out of the picture? So you're

not just reduced down to your body and what you can do in terms of pleasure for other people, but how do you go after that heart in a way that expands a woman's perspective on herself and even on her sex relationships? Isn't that the $1,000,000 question? What it comes back to for me is how do I have an eight-year-old son? How do I capture his heart for Jesus? How do I teach him from birth that Jesus loves him and has a good plan for his life? Because it's not about any rules that I can institute in my home, right? We know that obedient when our children love us, they want to obey us from a place of love. And so if we can truly help our children

fall in love with Jesus, fall in love with the God that created them, then they're going to want to obey. And they're going to understand that I don't have to not go out and have sex because I have this list of rules that I'm going to go to hell if I disobey these rules, I want to not have sex because I know that God's plan is perfect and I want his plan for my life, not with my selfish desires or seeking. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Over the last year, my life consisted of a series of transitions, and what I know for sure

is that the path of least resistance isn't always the one to take. At first, I couldn't tell if I was going in the right direction, but sometimes in life we're faced with tough decisions, and the path forward won't always be easy. That's why I lean towards therapy when tasked with difficult decisions. Hear me clear, sis. Talking to a therapist can support you during those seasons of uncertainty.

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All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire. You know you could use some guidance. We all can. So let therapy be your map with better help. Visit betterhelp.com slash evolve today to get 10% off your first month. That's better H-E-L-P dot com slash evolve. Oh, so that's going to be a lot of homework for some of our moms listening and even the guys, because I know the guys tune into to really pivot from having this rule-based relationship with God. I think especially when it comes terms comes into talking about the birds and the bees

and really moving into a space of understanding your child's heart, allowing your relationship to be set up in such a way that you have access to their heart, but also so that you can get in there and plant the right type of seeds because everyone's vying for space in our kids. Hard, their minds, their attention, their actions. And so how do we create opportunity for us to infiltrate that space that is so sacred, recognizing that that is going to be the place from which everything flows. I think that that's a remarkable opportunity that you've given as this parents. I have a question for you though, Angela, so you could

be a sex therapist without being a Christian sex therapist, right? I mean, because you're already broken out of the tradition of some of just, I think just, I don't know, like talking about things that we're going to talk about in church, like, girl, you already out there. Like, how do you bring the Christian part back into this? So my primary focus, it has always been from day one, sex and Christian marriage. So what does the Bible tell us about what sex and intimacy in Christian marriage looks like? It's not just focusing on the male orgasm, it's talking about female orgasm as well.

And there is. And so what Bible are you reading? How don't girl, first of all, how do I need you to take me slow, Angela? Listen. Angela, wait a minute. Hold on, Chad, take me slow, now listen. Okay, Chad, listen.

You just, the words just come. Is that part of just being so comfortable and so free? We're just like, we're just, you just, it just comes right on out or how to, is that, that's freedom? That's your free in the Lord? Tell us about that. Yeah.

Because I think most of us, we like to talk around it. We like to give it nicknames, but you're just, you know all the names, you studied, you're doing the things. Yes, yeah. Part, so here's the thing. I fully believe, I will have people come to me and they'll tell me something like,

I wanna learn how to do this thing and I don't know how to do this thing. I'm like, okay, what thing do you wanna learn? And they kinda pussy foot around and they wanna give it cutie names. When like, girl, I'm not gonna teach you how to do the thing until you can say this thing. I'm like, okay, what thing do you want to learn? And they kind of pussy foot around, and they want to give it cutesy names. When like, girl, I'm not going to teach you how to do the thing until you can say the thing. You cannot be ashamed of your body.

You cannot be ashamed of the things that you want to do with your husband and bed. If you expect to enjoy what you are doing with your husband and bed, because until you get rid of that shame, it's not going to be the fulfilling experience that you are hoping it's going to be. So you need to be able to come to me and say,

Angela, I wanna learn how to orgasm. Yes, girl, let me teach you how. I will teach you. Angela, go forth, ma'am. Go forth. All right, okay, so thank you for helping us understand. That was a lesson for some of us already. Like we're gonna stop using these little Sesame Street nicknames at least within ourselves because we're not just

using them in conversations with other people. Like there are words that we do not use point blank period. Even within our friendships with our girls and stuff. Like we use these nicknames and yet the why do you think that shame exists in like calling a thing a thing? Is that a part of just what has been ingrained in us? Yeah, so let's look at purity culture. We weren't supposed to talk about it. We weren't supposed to think about it

because here is a real something that will screw with your brain about purity culture. You aren't supposed to notice somebody's attractive. You aren't supposed to think about it because the noticing was sin, right? How many times were boys told bounce your eyes? Don't look at somebody because then you're sinning, right? Noticing is not sin. Sin is when you go back for the second and third looks and you start dwelling on it, right?

And so women sort of created this alternate language to protect themselves from any sort of perceived sin, right? Because we were also told you have to completely avoid the appearance of sin. And so a lot of people that come to me also had no sex education in their home. It simply was not something that was talked about. And so when we, from a young age, start using anatomical names with our children, we empower them to start using the big words like orgasm when they are preparing for marriage and learn how to make sure that their spouse knows how to have pleasure, right?

So using the language is important. And I do have a little bit of a hack for people who are super intimidated by me right now with all of these words like orgasm, like, poor, she is saying these words, and this is terrifying. Here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna get a journal.

And let's see, I've got a way of coming to me. And she wants to learn how to have better sex with her husband. She doesn't know how, but she wants to start on the journey. Real simple. Go get a journal. Start reading down your fantasies, your desires, in the journal.

And then you don't only have to say those big scary words out loud, but you still have a way to communicate with your husband because after you write down what you want to do, you can hand it to him and he can read it. And now you guys are communicating. And then in a year, you get to look back at how far you came and from where you started. And hopefully writing it out is practice for you to start being able to say the words with your mouth. Angela, you have stressed us today and we're only eight minutes into it. But I think it's good. I think we're learning, we're growing.

Okay, so before I cut you off because I was just catching up to where we are and how we have evolved in this podcast, you were telling me that the Bible doesn't just focus on one person's, I wrote it down for you to see over another person. We're gonna stop. Or a castle. There we go.

Greta Bobboy said nothing about that to me. Where you at? What scripture is this? Tell me about it. How do we get that in there? Okay, girl. I just finished a deep dive on Song of Solomon actually. Oh my God.

Did you know? Did you know the Song of Solomon talks about oral sex? No. Yeah. sex. No. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. She, so the lover says to hit to Solomon about eating the fruit of her vineyard and eating the honey of her vine.

And I want to say it's song of Solomon 6'2. I could have that exact address wrong, but it is very clear there. So inside of Solomon, she starts off the Virgin coming into her marriage. And at the beginning of the book, Solomon is the one that is initiating their sexual encounters. But by this time we get to the end of the book, she very boldly says to him, I want to get it on. Let's go, let's have sex, let's go off together, we're going to go take a walk in the vineyard, and we're going to get it on. And that is right there.

So if you want to start with a biblical foundation of what sex and marriage is supposed to look like, do a deep dive on Song of Solomon, get the commentaries. And don't just get the commentaries that talk about, well, this is a spiritual picture of Christ and his bride. And those are wonderful commentaries and they have their place. And it is a beautiful picture of Christ and his bride of the church. But it's also a picture of marriage and Solomon and his wife having marital relations. So when you made this pivot into your field, everything's fine. Your friends, your community, your circle,

did everyone clutch their pearls? Like how did you, because I really want to outside of how necessary the conversation is for healthy, your marriages and relationships. There are people listening who maybe have a purpose or a call or a vision that is so outside of what would be deemed appropriate or normal for where they are from. And I think hearing more about your experience could be helpful because I mean, it is, you know, new for many of us, but I can imagine that within your circle, there were some people like, are you sure you want to do that and say that out loud? What was that like when you were first beginning to step into this lane?

Honestly, there was zero surprise, zero percent of my friends were surprised. Because I have always had that challenge or personality, right? I've just always been the one who's just going to put it out there. When my husband and I were first married 20 years ago, we were the first couple in our group to get married because I did get married literally weeks after graduation. And a couple years later, we're at the wedding

of a friend and backing up, I have been invited to her Bachelorette party. I was told it was a Bachelorette party. Okay, let's just establish that right now So I took Bachelorette party appropriate gifts. I did not take a board game or Panes I took things that buys and are operated on batteries because I was supposed to be Bachelorette I show up and her mother's there. She'd have been my first clue. Yeah, we go buys and are operated on batteries because I was supposed to be batched for X. I show up and her mother's there. Should have been my first clue.

We go through. And I tell her, like she's starting to open gifts and everybody's given her board games and like super pretty night gallons. And like, maybe don't open mine. It's your mom sitting next to you. And she opened it. She kind of like picks it up and looks at it.

I like just sits it face down on the ground and like pulls out, because this was back before you like plugged your things into the wall to charge. So then she pulls out the pack of batteries I bought and she's like, oh, thanks. And just like put everything back in the bag. And it was like, so nobody was surprised when I started working the way

that I did because this has always been when my friends get married, I give them accessories to take on the honeymoon. If somebody is getting married, I'm like, do you know what you're doing? Do you need to talk about it? Do you need advice? What's happening here? So this was not a surprise and the ministry team that I'm a part of really encouraged me to walk in my calling. So I think if we're talking about advice for someone wanting to walk in a calling that is unconventional is find your circle. Wow. Find the circle that is going to support you no matter the calling is going to support you no matter the calling,

how crazy the calling seems. So my circle has a midwife that lives in an RV and travels the country following home births. My circle has a theologian who's also a watercolor artist. My circle has a pastor that literally left Canada in the middle of the pandemic with zero place to live, zero job prospects and just picked up and moved. Didn't know where she was going to land and has lived literally in their desert for two years waiting for a job to open up and they start finally starting a job next week. And so my circle is full of women who are radically following God's call for their life,

no matter how crazy it is. Wow. And so you need to find that circle that's going to support the call of God and find the circle that will tell you, this is the call of God on your life. And if you don't follow what you're being disobedient, so get on it. We just want to know how we can apply for the circle because at this point, everyone seems very cool.

We don't know if we're radical enough to be in it, but we at least want to try. Angela, talk to me a little bit about body image. So one of the things that I have noticed that I feel like for myself in different seasons, for my friends, that have kept us from being free and open and even being confident in our body, it's just the changes that come naturally or we have babies, we gain weight, like we lose weight.

Like how do we harness the confidence to show up as it relates to being in relationship with our husbands in a way that honors the desire to really want to be sexy and want to feel like, you know, who I'm working with something, even when you don't actually feel that way, or you're tired. Yes, so for those of you who are listening and aren't

catching this on video replay and have never encountered me on socials before, I'm fat. I am clinically obese. And people like to wear a pack. We're from we say you think. So we wouldn't, we would, OK, go ahead. You think. That's OK.

Look, I'm thick. I'm fat. I own the fact that I'm fat a lot of my trolls like to show up in my comments and be like go read another donut okay like do you not think I have a mirror do you not think I can see what I am working with every day okay I know I am fat here's the thing my husband loves me he did not marry me for I would I was fat when my husband hit on me for the first time. I was fat when we got married. And I know that's not the story of a lot of people because a lot of people feel like their body changed after baby.

But the thing is, if your husband is a man of God, it doesn't matter how your body changes. You shoved a watermelon out of a hole that is not designed for watermelons to pass generally. Okay? Like your husband should be part of the phrase, worshiping what your body can do post-bating, all right? Cause it's amazing. And he doesn't care whether my weight fluctuates because he cares about my spirit and my soul and my mind.

And he thinks that I am beautiful and gorgeous, no matter what my body is doing at the time. I struggle with chronic illness. And there's a lot of days where I can't climb out of bed because my body will not cooperate. And even on those days, he comes home and he wants to be with me because he appreciates who I am and not what my body can do for him.

So when we're talking about finding ways to be sexy in the bedroom, you need to let go of all of the concepts that Hollywood has told you what sexy is supposed to be. Do you know what of the most popular videos on my TikTok was when I wore a granny nightgown and talked about, this is when my husband finds me the sexiest, when I am wearing like the floral little house

on a prairie type nightgown. Those are the days my husband comes in and he's like, hey, baby, how are you doing? What are you doing? You want to go to bed? Like not when I'm wearing any kind of lace or lingerie or whatever, because that's because men are just weird. Okay, sometimes men are just weird. I have no explanation. I can buy all the lace in the world, but that $10 Walmart nightgown is what gets him going. All right, it's, and there are so many husbands that are like that.

So the first thing you need to go to do, let go of the idea of what Hollywood says is sexy because sexy is not always lingerie and high heels. I would break an ankle if I try to walk around a high heel. Sexy is what makes you feel confident on the inside. So first of all, take a look at your wardrobe, pull out the pieces that make you feel the most confident.

Figure out what is it about that piece of clothing that makes you feel confident. Now figure out if there's a way that you can translate that into the bedroom. Is there a certain dress that you feel super confident in? Great. What you're going to do is you're going to wear that dress. You're going to go on a date with your husband. You're going to sneak into the bathroom. You're going to shimmy out of your underwear. You're going to go back to the table. You're going to slip that underwear in his pocket. And you're going to say, I can't wait to get home tonight. And you both are going to very suddenly say, check please.

Let's go. OK, but you weren't wearing lingerie. You're wearing a dress. And so figuring out what makes you feel confident is first. The second tip that I have for confidence and feeling sexy in the bedroom is actually removing one of your senses. So using a blindfold in the bedroom

gets us out of our head and into our bodies. Because feeling sexy is not ever going to happen when you are all up in your head thinking about does he think I'm sexy? Does this like look okay? Oh my gosh, do I have a double chin right now? Right, but none of that is sexy thoughts. Sexy thoughts are when you have the blindfold

on, you're forced to think about, I love the way his hands feel on my body right now. I love where he is touching me and I wish that he would touch me with a little more pressure. And sometimes that blindfold will give you the freedom to tell him more pressure because there is something about taking away one of our senses that forces us out of our head and into our bodies. So figuring out what makes you confident and forcing yourself into your body and out of your head. All right so real fast who in the delegation is down for guided meditation? Don't worry, I'll wait. With my life enduring a series of transitions, I've been using the Abide app to increase

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is that oftentimes the bedroom is the place where the woman feels the most empowered. And yet when there has been fractures in the marriage or there's been pain or just words unsaid that her withholding really has more to do with punishing him for something that didn't have anything to do with the bedroom or nothing to do with desire at all and more about control. So I want to talk a little bit about how does the bedroom become its most sacred, most fulfilling, most rewarding place is not just about physical, but there is an emotional aspect, a trust aspect, and what needs to be cleared out, not just within our own mentality about our bodies and ourselves, but what needs to be cleared out not just within our own mentality about our bodies and ourselves, but what needs to happen in their relationship to foster the type of safety

that will promote the type of freedom that you're talking about? I'm about to say something super controversial. Really? For the first time today? For the first time in this. Go for it. Look, people get mad. I mean, people get. Go for it. People get mad. I mean, people get mad at me for many, many things.

People get real big mad. When I have a couple come to me and say that something in a relationship is broken and she doesn't, is an interest in sex. My first suggestion takes that off the table. Take it off the table, right? Because when you leave sex on the table, but the relationship is broken, now you have unmet expectations and resentment for desiring a sort of intimacy that one of the people

is not prepared to give. Okay. And I teach about the 12 different types of intimacy that we can experience in marriage. So when I say intimacy in marriage, your mind's immediately go to sex. But there's 11 other types of intimacy that we can experience in marriage. And so my advice is usually take sex off the table.

Now what you're going to do is you're going to focus on the 11 other types of intimacy. And after an aggritive pun period, I usually suggest starting with two weeks where we take sex off the table, and we make a daily concerted effort to focus on at least one of the 11 types of intimacy that are left. By the end of that two weeks,

I have not had a client come back and say that they were not ready to at least start engaging in more physical activities. After that two week period of concerted focus on the 11 other types of intimacy. Can you just give us three of those, maybe three, surprising out of those 11 forms of intimacy? Absolutely. So one of my favorites to talk about is work intimacy. Now, this is not like showing up at your husband's job. Don't make it weird. Work intimacy is things like cooking a meal together.

And if you are my husband and myself, work intimacy by cooking a meal together is also going to increase your conflict intimacy. Because my husband and I have historically not worked well in the kitchen together. We usually wind up snapping at each other. But if we were to say that we are going to cook a meal together as a form of work intimacy, that means that we're going to have to make a concerted effort to reduce the conflict that we are experiencing in the kitchen together. So now we're hitting both work and conflict intimacy.

Now we're probably also going to hit communication intimacy because we're going to have to communicate about, all right, I'm going to prep the meat, you prep the veggies, I'm going to do the sauce, you do blah, blah, blah. And that kind of clear communication is going to increase your communication intimacy. Wow. That's amazing. That's going to help a lot of people. Because I do think we reduce intimacy down to one form.

But I can think of countless times where my husband and I had some other form of intimacy, not even knowing or having the tools that you just demonstrated to us. And I can tell that it did bring us closer after we got to the other side of it. So wow, okay, so you have stressed me on today. And stretched me and grown me. I wanna know Angela, like what do you think is something that we haven't covered

or something that you wanna reiterate that you think is so important for a woman who's maybe listening? And it does, it's taboo on one hand, right? But it's also all in our music, it's all in entertainment, but we're not having straightforward conversations about it. And now she's like, you know what? She's like me, she's like taking a deep breath in, she's like, I want to own every part of my being, every part of my being, every part of my body, and I want to fill in power

to do it. What are some things that you want to make sure we understood about today's conversation? Sex, okay, so my tagline is, go have good sex, right? I am, my primary purpose is to help couples improve their sex lives. But you do not owe anybody sex. Okay, you can listen to all of my content and you can hear me talk about the sex journals and talking about intimacy with your spouse and the bedroom games that I put out where I talk about how to make it fun and bad. But if your relationship is so fundamentally broken that you don't crave that physical intimacy

with your spouse, that's okay. Do not let anybody pressure you into unwanted sex ever. What needs to happen is the relationship needs re-evaluated and the relationship needs built back up from the foundation so that there comes a time when you want to have sexual intimacy with your spouse. Unwanted sex is unwanted sex and God never wants us to violate our free will by having sex that we don't want. Wow. That's so good.

Because as you know, that's been something that I think has restricted a lot of women from feeling free in their marriages, feeling that sense of obligation and or feeling like they literally don't have a choice at all because there's someone's possession. So thank you for hoping, hopefully restoring some of that perspective back to women. Angela, who has been the most impactful woman for you on this journey of, I'm going to call it Christian sexual liberation. Who is the woman who has impacted you the most? Sheila Rhaegar Gore. If you have not, if anybody listening has not read the Great

Fest Rescue, please go get it. She conducted a scientific research study of, I want to say, over 20,000 women. And the statistic I talked about where we know that purity culture affects rates of vagimism in married evangelical women. That is all from her research study. She is a pioneer in the sexual revolution in the evangelical church and her work is scientific. And that is something that not enough Christian authors when they're writing about marriage and intimacy have done. Like there's not a lot of science in the most popular Christian marriage books. And so the fact that she is now coming out with scientific facts and science that does not, her science does not in any way go against what the Bible tells us. It all aligns.

And so knowing that we now have science that can prove with the Bible is telling us is mind blowing and amazing. Wow. What do you hope that she knows about the impact her work is had on who you are today? She has so many people telling her all the time, like how that she has impacted marriages, that I really hope that she knows that I am so honored that I get to be another voice, kind

of lifting the battle cry of sex doesn't have to be this obligation. Sex should be fun. Sex should be enjoyable and we need to talk about it more within the church. We need to equip the saints to be having good marriages and good sex. Okay, okay, so I'm gonna ask you this and then I'm for real this my last question until I have a thousand questions and have to invite you back for part two. Why do you think that Christians need to have good sex? Like why can't it just be for you know reproducing children or like you know, reproducing children or like, you know, like, why does it have to be good? Like, what does that do for the marriage?

So, there's all kinds of science about how orgasms are good for our body as far as physical health, orgasms are great for our mental health. Let's look at the fact that women possess the only organ designed for pleasure on a human body. And I'm going to say it, the clit. The clit is the only organ on a human body that has a sole function for pleasure. Every other organ has something to do with either keeping the body alive, keeping systems running, things like that. If God did not design sex for pleasure and to enjoy it, why did he give us the

click? That doesn't make sense. Angela, you are a good time. You are. I want to thank you for making us clutch our pearls today for giving us some undeniable food for thought in a way that I think allows us to become more empowered in who we are as women and to take ownership of our bodies in a way that really allows us to be the woman we see in our head without fear and without shame. So I thank you for the work you're doing to undo what has been some painful and

shameful experiences and I really I enjoyed speaking to you. You're a really a really good time. Thank you so much. I am so honored that you invited me and I just if anybody gets a chance you guys need to catch the video of this because your eyes each time I said one of the no-no words I thought they were gonna pop out of your head thank you for trusting me thank you Angela take care thank you so much bye Bye. Angela, this episode right here, it literally just changed the game. What a time we had. I could not have anticipated how much joy and awkwardness and education I would have

received in our conversation, but it is definitely one that provided a lot of insight. I appreciate you sharing your expertise for giving immediate tools as it relates to intimacy. The Women Connected to this podcast have now been given permission to break free from the toxicity of their past perceptions about sex and relationships and to explore what is God's truth as it relates to them and their journey. Thank you for giving us another perspective that we can take into our intimate time with God. Blessings to you, child. Send me, child. I know the emails going to be littleness when I'm going to tell you right now. You don't even have to type it out. Just pop the phone up, hit record, and send me your video response to this podcast because I need to know how

stressed you are. And if you were one of those people who thought I was playing when I gave you the disclaimer, I bet you didn't think I was playing now. I'll see you next week. You