Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts - The Revolutionary Power in Conflict w/ Candice Benbow

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

Chiiillleee, this episode is “for church girls who’ve considered tithing to the beauty supply store when Sunday morning isn't enough.” That’s right, Saints—W.E. see your side-eyes & raise you a neck roll…’cause IYKYK! Theologian, essayist, public educator, and author Candice Benbow is co-hosting with SJR & is highkey a force to be reckoned with! She tells of harnessing her power even after internalizing church hurt, losing her mother, and experiencing sexual trauma. Sis, let this be a reminder that God gone step for His! Learn more about the work that Candice is doing at CandiceBenbow.com. Plus, cop her NEW book, Red Lip Theology, that centers Black women of faith! As a loyal listener you can get 10% OFF your first month at BetterHelp.com/Evolve + start your FREE 30-day trial from Audible.com/wellbeing + try CatalinaCrunch.com/Evolve with 15% OFF your first order, plus FREE shipping. Tell them W.E. sent you!

God can't bless you for tend to be or who you can care yourself to. He can only bless you and the lane that was created for you. I feel that for somebody. You don't need no itch, it's a unique boundary. What? I don't need your lights, I don't need your elevation. All I need is a God fighting for me that's there for all things. All things, all things.

Try. When I first saw the name Candice Marie Benbeau, it was on a tweet. This tweet was spicy and thoughtful and wise and convicting and upsetting. And I think that those are all of the emotions that are evoked when you open up yourself to a new way of thinking, and that new way of thinking is being challenged by those who are watching you learn in front of the world. Candice Marie Binbow is beautiful, she is intelligent, and she herself is very spicy. I like that about her. She reminds me of myself. We do not agree about everything. There are probably some people familiar with

her work and familiar with what I do and think I don't think these two should get together. There are others who are probably thinking finally we can have a conversation that I've been wondering within myself. This is the beginning of what I hope will be many conversations with someone whose thoughts and belief systems are different from mine, but whose experiences and revelation resonate deeply with where I am. It's this oxymoron that we all have to deal with when we show up in the world, authentically and connected to our neighbor.

So check out this foray into sisterhood that I think will leave you more open and compassionate than you were before we began. Hey girl. I don't know how are you. Great, how are you? I'm good. Candice, questions for you, okay? When we talk about a woman and her power,

can you remember the first time you felt powerful as a woman after all of the traumas and disappointments and uncertainties and insecurities we face, but to really feel settled and powerful in your identity as a woman. It didn't actually happen for me. I saw a lot of said, Lancer was, I think the decision to look to Atlanta and decide that I was going to just like, move beyond all of the foolishness,

all of the pain that was associated with my time in New Jersey. And I decided it was what's plainly, it was what's saying Atlanta and LA, the pandemic happened. And my grandma was like, you can go to LA, but if you get sick, I'm not coming out there. So it was like, what do I do then? And then I also led me to pick it.

Lancer was because I wanted a life, like I wanted to be able to cultivate my professional career. But I also wanted the parts of me that I felt like got starved because I was nurturing them. And I felt like I could in Atlanta have a personal life and nurse the other parts of me that are that need to be filled and whole so that I can really walk into the fullness of who I am. And I moved here and they used to dance like, it's funny, I'll put it this way. Those are when I had like regular people trebles and I was excited. Like it wasn't the complications I would, you know, have me in bed for for weeks or months at a time. It wasn't like

catastrophic loss and hard breaks. It was just like, I got what am I going to do this weekend? Like it was the it was that kind of like, and I remember telling my friend, I was like, the bottom is here. Like, I have a bottom now. Wow. And this for so long, I was just swimming and drowning. And that was the moment we that I said, you made a decision that really did change our life.

Wow. And don't ever, I actually wrote it in my journal and I have a gratitude jar. And I put it in there and I said, don't ever forget what this feels like because you can do it. And so I had to lean on it. I've been here since September of 2020. But then I have been sometimes I have been like, okay, Candace, you can move in a pandemic. Like, whatever this is, like, you can you can get over

that too. But that I think that was the moment that I was like, I am in my power. That reminds me of my husband and I once I remarried and we were like in a relationship. And you know, it's not that we have like this perfect marriage, but when you've been in some tragic toxic situations, like the idea of when you're tired, you're grumpy, and I don't like the way you talk to me, then it's completely different than when you are experiencing like some,

so like I'm about to go to jail like Like I'm on my way to prison and I just I thank God for my husband for allowing me to have a bottom like you just expressed It's so it's so funny that you said that that way because I've been working with the same therapist since January 2016. And so when I got here, one of the things that she told me, I was going from like zero to like a hundred. When I was dating a guy and he didn't respond to a text message.

Like this is literally what happened. But before, in those situations, they didn't respond to a text message just cause they was not supposed to talk to them and I have any bit of thoughts. And so after I said he's cheating and this is the end of the relationship and he had not only see cheating,

he has a family on the other side of time. Okay. I don't know my name, the rest of the set, or he was at work. Or, and I said, I said, well, then what's 315, when I text him, she was like, let's let him be at work. And I remembered when we talked about it two weeks later

and he was at work and responded when he was able to, I told her I said, there's something about having to remind yourself that you're not where you are, like that it's okay. Like my friends have said to me before, like you don't have to keep waiting for the other shoot to drop because it's okay. Like, my friends have said to me before, like, you don't have to keep waiting for the other shoe to drop because it's on your foot. Like, you don't have to, you don't have to stay there.

And I think that's the work that so many of us have done that even in our own work, we try to push other people to see that it's possible. Like, you don't have to stay. You can make a decision and make it shit. And they just be grateful that like, I'm not swimming anymore. You know, I'm not drowning anymore. I love what you said about swimming and drowning.

There's a song by Banks, it's called Drowning. And it used to be a song that I listened to on repeat. And it's like, I'm drowning for you. What was happening in your world that is the literal, And it used to be a song that I listened to on repeat. And it's like, I'm drowning for you. What was happening in your world that is the literal, I guess, definition behind those words, swimming and drowning? What were those experiences? Yeah, so when my mom died, I'm an only child, and my mom is not only parent.

And though we have a huge family, we were each others, immediate family and everything. And I had not ever, like I, as I'm a child, any time my mother would save me and then I'm trying to prepare you because one day I'm not gonna be here. I'm sorry, crying. I don't wanna ever think of or be in or live in a world

that my mother was not eating, right? So she passed unexpectedly. Like you had a conversation the night before, she was talking to me about the cares bombings because that was the day that they had a was a terrorist attack. We had a family member who was there so she was telling me that she had got in touch with them and that they were okay. And then we were just talking. I spirit knew God knew that it was our final

conversation. But I didn't. And I remembered when my mom died, or when I found out my mom died, it was like somebody took the ride that was holding me in place and just yanked it out of me. And I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to do. It was like, I just was there. And it took a long time for me to, there are some losses that happened to us that are

totalizing. And I needed the room and the space to adjust to such a totalizing loss. And it would have been okay if that was the only thing that was going on in my life at this time, but I was in a doctoral program that wasn't trying to give me and leave it up to. I was in a relationship that I had no business being in and he decided to move on and be with someone else. I experienced sexual assault and on a date,

listening to a friend who was like, the best way to get over me is to get with a new one. And all of that culminated into this moment where my friends had to had literally take me to get help. Because it was the difference between, I had absolutely no idea what a day without deep darkness looked like.

Yeah. And I don't know if, I don't know if people, and I pray that everybody doesn't experience those moments. But something about experiencing such profound trauma and pain that you have absolutely no idea or belief that you would ever see goodness or like again. And I remember I was there.

Like I was like all of my best days are behind me. Like life cannot get any better. And that was the journey that I had decided that this was as good as it was going to be, even if I wanted it to be better, it couldn't be. And so I remembered when I started therapy, those were the analogies that we used, that I was drowning and I couldn't feel my feet. And then when things got better, but they were still sad and still difficult. We would she would say, do you do you feel anything? Do you feel anything? Anything? I feel like, yeah, I feel I feel something like it's there, but it's not stable. And so we used the analogy throughout my time with her.

We go back to it now. Thankfully, I have the tools that I don't ever see myself getting to a point where I'm drowning again. Like because once you go got something like that, and you actually do the work to a new knowledge and to better and to be well, then you get to say, hey, these are some triggers, these are some experiences that are

pretty good other things, these are some emotions that are familiar that I don't want to feel. And so that was really other things back. These are some emotions that are familiar that I don't wanna feel. And so that was really what we did. Like we started with Johnny because that was, it was suffocating. It was just the weight of, the weight of it all was just suffocating. And I couldn't do anything to just think

under the weight of it all. For years now, I've been vocal about the importance of taking care of my mental health, whether it was putting boundaries in place or doing mindfulness exercises, tools I've learned in therapy have not only been beneficial for me, but everyone connected to me. When I take care of my own mind, heart, and soul, I show up better for the people in my world. I want you to be mentally

healthy as well and it's possible with better health. Better Health is online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. Give it a try and see why over two million people have used BetterHelp online therapy. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp and Woman Evolved Podcasts with Sarah Jake's Robert Slysseners, get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash evolve. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com slash evolve. I wish that I could have maybe heard this

when I was in my own drowning season. I feel like I first started drowning probably when I got pregnant. And I think I spent, no, I know, I spent 10 years really drowning, like really, really drowning. And I feel like I started to swim, look, now be my therapist, okay, I feel like I started to swim. Look, now be my therapist.

Okay, I feel like I started to swim once I got divorced. And I really think I'm honestly just now coming to a place where I am on land with all of my possessions and like all of my strength. Because the thing about drowning is that like you don't just lose yourself in the water. You lose all of these hopes and dreams and ideas and thoughts and trying to like pick up those pieces and see what I've lost while

drowning is not an option that most people have. And so you get stuck in this survival mode. And I knew part of what the answer to that question was going to be because I've read your book. And as a church girl, I feel like there are a lot of things that I was able to relate to. But I do think that like your church experience and my church experience like are completely different. So I got pregnant, right?

But my parents, it sounds much like your mom, like my parents were there for me. They didn't shame me, which is a blessing that not a lot of, you know, people girls who grew up in church experience, I wasn't ex-communicated, they didn't kick me out. Like they still held me close. We had to work through all kinds of disappointments

and pain and trigger, but I never felt the loss of them. And then I also never felt the disapproval of our congregation fully. There were a few people wanted me to get up in front of everybody and apologize. There was somebody who sent me a blanket for my, they told me my baby was gonna die and they sent me this blanket to wrap my baby in. And, but I was so drowning that like that, none of that stuff really mattered to me because I was in such a dark space.

But the things, I feel like when I heard your church experience, I was like, no wonder Candace went on her own journey of faith because some of the stuff that people said directly to you, like not through a grapevine, not through it, I don't know exactly what they said, so I'm not gonna accuse them of it. Like the things that people said directly to you,

I think would have made me question my faith as well, but you've gone on this journey from like church hurt into purpose and still maintaining this aspect of faith. Like, can you tell me about that? Yeah, it was this. It's not funny because I saw people, I was never, my mama would say, one of the, one of the truest and reliable verses is train up child in the way that they should go.

a child in the way they should go. Because in this moment and in this kind of space, I don't think that there was ever a time when I was not going to be connected to church, right? Like my mother felt me kick there. And the first time my mother felt me kick was in a church called Mercy See. And she, Mercy See Holy Church, she had decided that she was not gonna stand up and apologize for being pregnant with me and knew what all of that would entail. And I also she was considered the one in my family

that would do everything right. And she was 26 when she got pregnant with me. But it was as if, her telling me, like it was as if she thought that you would have thought that she was young on the way that my family reacted. And so I spent a lot of time hearing things that were really rooted in people's disappointment that my mother did not fail.

And my mom would always say to me, she said, they can't get to me anymore. So they're trying to get to. And so it was years later, before I realized, people are intentionally saying things to hurt a child because they want, they don't want to see her mother as confident and as polished and as resilient as she is. But as a child, you know, that's the hurt, you know? To be used as an example in Sunday school of what it means to be a child out of wedlock to this day still seems.

To hear so many sermons about women's dedication and devotion to God and the single mothers and women who have children are in these heartbroken circumstances because they didn't know how to wait on God. I'm looking at me like, well, technically I'm the product of not waiting. So you're seeing here, you know, telling me that no other way have just loved God more than I wouldn't be here and she would be okay. And so I spent a lot of time devaluing myself

one in relationship to God and two in relationships with my mother, feeling like I had somehow like spoiled her, feeling like, you know, I had keeping her in a way. And, and, and it's analyzing that as I key it, right? And, and not having the words, the courage, the strength, all of those things to be able to say, like, this is, this is what I heard in church. This is what I heard like this is this is what I heard in church this is what I heard at home this is what I heard at the family call out this is how it's making me feel um for for a long time

instead of the just developing the natural inquisitive behavior that my mom nurtured me, especially when I came to faith, and when it came to learning and asking questions, I combined I was just kind of this like saying that like I didn't get to love and know I deeply because of the origins of my birth. And it's wild because so many people who are born in church, who are born in raising in church, and have these

have these, well, solutions, I would say, birth circumstances. There are parts of us that have trouble sometimes, reconciling identities with what we hear. And it wasn't until I got, I went to graduate school and then went to seminaries and then began to work with pastors, had conversations with them about, have you ever thought about what this sermon sounds like to a kid who does not have both parents? Have you thought about what this sermon sounds like to a woman who, or whatever reason, had to terminate a pregnancy?

And more times than not, they would be like, no, I haven't. And I would share like, okay, well, these are some of the songs I heard when I was a kid. They're very much in line with what you are saying and this is how many people right A lot of times it's just conversation where When you when you tell it and you hold on accountable. It's oh, I didn't know. Thank you for thank you for For holding me there and I'll work to do better and then sometimes it's just that people are so entrenched In an ideology that they don't care. You know, I was 33 when my mom died,

and pastors literally came to my house. I grew up to bury my mother, and I passed her came to the house and asked me if I knew whether or not she had she finally repaid for me. I got a bury my mom on. You're saying like I have to bury her and you are asking me if I know whether or not she she finally said that having me and getting pregnant was in a state. It was 60 years old.

You know what I'm saying? Like the kinds of conversations that had I been in a better place to know that like even in the midst of grief that I'm saying that was foolishness, there's no telling what it could have taken me. You know, had I not had friends who literally, you know, one of my college sweetens there with me and she was like, you know, thank you for coming. Yeah.

You know, thank you. We will definitely be like a service and us should have right out the house and then say everybody attacks message and like nobody sees Candace today or tomorrow. Had I not had that and people to just hold it in their face, there's no telling what I would have heard. You know what I'm saying? Oh, done.

And I think, and I'll say this in closing, like part of church is the fact. And this is one of the things that I wish people got, but we sometimes don't get it. Is that though church is valuable, right? Though it is made though church is valuable, right? Though it is made up of imperfect people. There's a certain expectation of

care that that we are soon and that we believe in the present because we are talking about people spiritual lives and spiritual health and and they mean to be like Jesus in our and there are times when we've done something that has wounded people so much that they literally leave because they cannot fag on what it is like to be in a place that is so professing to be committed to the teaching of Jesus and

being like him that this kind of hurt could say, please. And I think what has to happen in those instances, not a disregarding of what it was and to the whole like we're not perfect. But to acknowledge and say, some of the ways that we have gone about teaching and some of the ways that we have gone about preaching has rooted and we are wrong. But what I can say is that if you partner with us and if you journey with us, it doesn't mean we may not get wrong again, but in the community of each other, we can love

and hold each other accountable and move towards reconciliation. I think there are so many people who got hurt by the urge to want to hear that. But because they hear the other one, like when people are perfect and your boss get on your nerves and say crazy stuff to you, but you don't quit going to hurt. That pushes us away from the real people and the musicians and you didn't get it right. And it hurt you, and we're sorry. And let's try to fix it.

You know, it's not a lot different than how we see people respond to the police violence that we see played out in our communities in which people are like, there's a few bad apples or you know, not every cop is that way, but the cops that are bad apples and the cops that are that way are the ones we're trying to have a conversation about. I think that I think there's a pride in our faith communities, particularly in church,

that keeps us from being willing to say, I messed that up. And we don't have a lot of grace for each other. So that pride I think is so dangerous. I think it's part of the reason why even, you know what I've seen God do in my life in attracting people to, you know, woman evolve. I think a lot of it has to do with this idea of, I'm not perfect. Like I'm telling you upfront, here it is. I'm not perfect.

You gonna be mad at me some days. I'ma try and fix it. I don't know if it's gonna work, but I'ma hop my way. And to the next thing, I think people want permission, both honestly from the platform and in the PUSE to not be perfect and to be able to still be received in that way, I think what you said is so powerful,

but that position of leadership and authority does require a level of humility that doesn't exist. Do you think that black titles and in the church are so meaningful that the idea of offending someone or doing wrong from that position keeps them from showing up in a way that would be humble enough to say those words that you just said? Like does this title mean so much to me that I can't allow you to see my weakness or my

anger or my disappointments? I don't think it's just that it means so much to them. I think it's because it means so much to us too. So like when you think about the origins of the Black Church, it was rooted in this place for us to be safe together, right? And to be able to commune with God and commune with each other outside of the Dan away from the dangers of my supremacy and racism of the of the moment. And you know, my grandma still talks about the sense of like it was beautiful to be a church and where a man was called boy outside of the

four walls. He was deacon green. He was deacon Johnson, he was trustee Williams. Like she talked about in her home church, childhood church, childhood Baptist church, of the pastor, he's the pastor of one of the most important, biggest churches, black churches, and Winston-Salem at the time, what a white man called him a boy

in front of his own church. And my grandma never forgot that and what that felt like to hear and what that meant for her to see. And then she said, and then he went in there and she said, and he preached down the street though. And she, I mean, hear her talk about it. So there's something about the ways that the Black Church reinforced and restored Black

dignity and moments and in spaces where larger society worked to destroy it, and we still have that, right? So like, those are the parts that even with the pandemic, where we are, we're folks are not being able to go to church the way they used to. The way the pandemic has caused a lot of churches to have to close their doors. It's heartbreaking because black church in all of its iterations has been a space

where black dignity and black pride can flourish even when it was complicated and even when they were straight fling, you know what I'm saying? And so you have this moment where we look at you with a certain respect, So you have this moment where we look at you with a certain respect, we look at you and we have a certain authority into you and we have given you a mission and access to speak spiritually into our lives.

That's a heavy responsibility. And I do think that unfortunately, in those context, we've not given pastors a lot of money to be human. One, because the expectation is, like, you preach into me about my foolishness and make myself together. I don't need you to be having it too. And that's my fair, right? So I think that it's this it's this book and because we know that this is on as a unfortunate because too often it's not a confession of needing prayer when congregations find out about their about pastors is usually been being exposed. So then that brings its own kind of a tenor in texture to the situation.

But I do think that it is this unrealistic expectation that's both ways because we don't have many places in this world for black people to be revered. Like for you to just be there at times when I am in church before we left for the pandemic where I am and all of someone singing. You know what I'm saying? Like you ever heard somebody say because everybody got every church guy at least one. And you are like in any other context in any other world, this voice would be heard everywhere, right? The opportunities that they would have would be this. But because we're in the situations and circumstances that we're in, the ability for them to have the opportunities are not there. And so Black Church gives us the opportunities to thrive and flourish in meaningful ways.

And I think instead of leaning into that and fully celebrating that, we have an I'm guilty to be placed on realistic expectations on the ones who actually do need us to give them a lot more grace than what we do. Oh Candice, all my words. I'm gonna move on. Oh Candice, I don't even know what to do.

I don't even know where we go from there. Well, I mean, obviously I am, you know, T.D. Jake's daughter. And I know very well the tightrope that you are expected to walk on in order to be this perfect reflection of what is being preached on Sunday and the tension of knowing that I'm going to fall at any moment. And I think that one of the things that I really wanted to do when it just became clear that, you know, people were going to be attracted to the way that I speak, or to the way that I write, is to really be transparent about my own journey and my

own struggle, because I don't want to get on this, like, I don't want to be on your tight rope. And I think the times that I feel the most discouraged as a pastor and a preacher are those moments where it's weird because on one hand, I don't want to be on your tightrope, but then when I do something that disappoints, you know, the more traditional people, like I carry that with me, even if it's just a mistake or like I had a mislipp when speaking, I went to quote one scripture and quote it something else

and that mixed them together. And then there was this whole dialogue about sound doctrine and my comments and I just, it makes me not want to do it at all because it's like I can't, I'm practicing in front of the world. You know what I mean? Like I am practicing in front of the world. You know what I mean? Like I am practicing with everyone watching and trying to really come to terms with my own grace and compassion for myself without breathing that in

is really challenging. And I can only imagine for you because you are completely open and exposed about your thoughts and ideas in a way that I think is really courageous cause I don't, that's not my ministry. Like God is not call me to put my thoughts out onto the internet but you do not mind sharing things that are gonna ruffle feathers.

You don't mind talking about somebody's favorite pastor. You don't mind talking about what's happening in the headlines and not just like to your friends, I mean to the world. Everybody. And then you get the hate and do it anyway. What is happening? What do tell me? So it's so funny because I think the work on somebody asked me before they were like,

are you called to preach? And I was like, I'm not called to preach, as much as I'm called to words. Like I think that I knew what was I was gonna write. I was called to writing. Before I knew it, I knew pen and paper and my thoughts were where I was. But in college and in grad school, it really began to crystallize to me that the work

that I was really called to do was the work of the ocean. Like how do we think about God and the world? And how, and specifically in the context of the Black women, how do we think about ourselves, God, the world around us, and the relationship all of them have together, right? And it has been the space of having conversations and dialogue and doing work that the agents do about creating confidence and thinking through theological terms and thinking through what does this look like.

I think what's different is that one, we've always had men who are at the center of a theological conversation and inquiry, and particularly in our community, like that is the work of largely has been black men and black male pastors, and who you are to come and say like, so like we actually think about this or the context of it instead of not just being foolishness, but like what are the broader implications of this? That is not well received. Like, I mean, I had a group do and a three hour two blinds, fearing me.

Like, they took everything like a find off the internet and like for points, talked about how I was wrong and how I am, you know, not only leading people literally, but destroying doctrine and destroying gospel, the gospel. And I watched it and was like, oh, this is interesting.

Why? Because when I put on an oath, like these are the very same conversations that happened in the church councils that give us the doctrines that we leave, right? That like these are conversations that happen and need to take place. But very often because it's me and I'm a black woman and because I am afraid to say like, and I'm not afraid to say like,

it's not foolishness, you know, that it's a different, it takes a different turn around at a different level. Now behind closed doors and behind the scenes, like the Congresses that I'll have the pastors, are funny, like they will, they will say like, I do not wanna be ever in your crosshairs. I don't, and I'm like, well then don't do man foolish. And then I won't have to be in in your crosshairs. I don't. And I'm like, well, then don't do that in police. And then I won't have to be in my, but we laugh about that.

But, but then the bigger conversation that I have with them is that at the end of the day, for me, it is about encouraging black women, especially women in particular to to recognize that they don't have to surrender a certain authority about their relationship with God to someone else, right? That like God is an in an authentic real, healthy relationship. Your partner is going to speak to you first about what it is that you're not going to call your sister and be like, can you tell her? So I'm saying what she does, that I write,

it's not going to help you out, right? So what I tell women and what the work that I try to do is how do we work to foster healthier relationships with ourselves and with God so that when we hear things, so that when those tapes began to play over and over and over in our heads, then we can be honest and say these these thoughts, these things that I hear and sound or these things that get projected on me don't like the God I know to be true. And that's a and that's a lot of that's how you live things. The other the other part of it and I'll stop here, but the other part of it is that we cannot ignore

and negate the ways, the theological doctrine, scripture interpretation, and development of social marines, and the cultivation of morality impact women and girls, right? So like, the cultivation of morality impact women and girls, right? So like there are ways that how we frame scripture, how we talk about God, how we talk about the divine, the religious, in any space, right? How faith conversations take place and take shape and take root, directly impact the work and the work that girls and women believe that they can do and ways that they see themselves. In ways that the data experiences tell us do not bear our boys and men. And so because of that, we have to challenge the ways that doctrine is harmful because there are generations of girls who grow up-stunted, not because they can't do it, right, Or not because they don't have access to it,

but because they have believed a lie. And it's not a lie that is rooted in anything other than the fact of what it means for certain people and places and institutions to make power. And so my mom will tell me when I was little, but she said that came out giving out her, giving my little finger to the world. I was born on pictures.

Yes. On my big picture, it's the other finger. It's not the middle finger, but when they were coming out, they couldn't tell which one was which and for she's been she knew man. I was gonna be a man. And and my grades, I'm that grades and the fact that my teachers, I was in first grade and my teacher can't know my shirt that she didn't mean me to eat junk food. And she didn't mean me, but I heard what she went to her right. And my mom said, I knew man that you would be a first person with. And I think it's just also to her credit. So I saw women, I saw powerful women growing up.

I saw them challenge the sexism and patriarchy in their particular career skills. Mine just happens to be in religious institutions, but it was lost all, you know, grown up. And I mean, we hear, so I guess it's, I guess it's right out there somewhere. One way to keep the new year positivity going is through Audible. Audible has created a destination for complete wellbeing

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who encounter your work and I think it's similar to people who encounter what I do. And I don't think it's necessarily because we believe all of the same things because I know we have some departures, but I think there either, like finally I'm home, she's speaking what I've been thinking or like I'm a dim I'm telling the water, but I don't know where this is headed

or that girl going to hail if she don't get it together. Literally. And hell. Well, and I know that you don't even believe in it, so they don't have anywhere to send you. But I felt like with somebody listening, like wait, what, pause, listen. I don't necessarily want to get into the ways that we depart in our belief

systems. And maybe for someone that would be helpful, but I don't think that that's going to be helpful for the context of a speaking one because I feel like that's where the of a much longer conversation, then can take place in a podcast and is where the of relationship, not necessarily like this wrestling But I do think that we have to learn to be in relationship connection communication with people who hold different beliefs and philosophies than we do and to do that with a level of respect and a level of room and grace that doesn't make the

conversation adversarial. How important is it to you to have conversation with people who you know we connect where we connect and we walk together in the areas where we can and then in the areas that we can't we navigate. What is that like for you? That's every day. I mean, if you in so many consignory to ask all of my friends, they would say that I am the most, the most extreme liberal in my faith and my faith formation. Like, not, I'm the only one my friends who don't believe in him.

I have a theological argument for it, but, and some of them were in seminary with me, and they were like, we read those books too, and it's a hail. You know what I'm saying? So, so we have, we have those conversations, and what have also been really important to me. I have a friend who is complete and total opposite spectrum

philosophically for me. And if he was here, he would tell me, I pray for her every day. Like he, he told me when he's like, you posted this event and then you told me it's on my plate now, the next 24 hours, because I got to, if you get it in, I just don't you try to get an awful awful by faith,

I like whenever. But we have conversations which is one help to shape me, theologically, because the truth is that even as I do this work, it's the three groups. And at some point, I'll say that I'm going to read something, whether it's a blog or whether it's a book or they're going to listen to a podcast or they're going to watch a video, they're going to encounter they might say they might might not but how do I formulate arguments and conversations that at least are acknowledging that they are present and that they're there and that were inclusive in the space.

And so those conversations for me happen every day, you know, like writing, writing the theology and having conversations with my friends and when we like wrestled with, with allergy, wrestle with how I see the text on the ways that I approach scripture, I different than a lot of my friends. Where we land is that we we know that the other is loved and is called by God and that Jesus is the root of each of our lives.

We can't agree on that thing else, we know that to be fact, right? That is where we are. I think what is the danger, though, is that often, especially in the matter we're in now, where I think so many people are trying to come to terms with faith outside of Western European constructs and white context that very often, there's this extreme resistance to the other, right? Where like, you know, there are, that if you believe this, then you obviously are not saved.

And if you believe this, then you have sold into a certain level of whiteness and I won't do it you any way. And that is what Reverend Arthur Katie and Eva Cannon, who was one of the pioneers of womanist theology, before she died, we had a conversation about a year or two before she passed. And she was like, don't do wife folks work for them. And the way that black people can often tear

it apart and be divided is the work of of supremacist structures, right? And so I felt all the time like I have some fundamental non-negotiables and it is to see the humanity of all people. And we may, how you get to certain ways to see people's humanity, you might still diverge when it comes to how they live into their identity, and love. We can have conversations about that, right? But like, there's to be for me, it's kind of working non-emotionalism, like, you gotta be able to see that Mr. God has a body. And you've gotta make room for the fact that even if I don't agree, even if I don't get it, that people have right, the agency,

to engage their lives in the way that they choose. I mean, they're friends that I come to, and I'm like, we're getting together,. Like what is this? I'm saying like, because I know that, that we're, even though they have just the fight of thing, doesn't make it make sense. And it doesn't make sense for who they are and who I believe God has taught them to be.

And that's what relationship is. So funny, because when I did the, the cover story and it came out your cover story for Hello Beautiful, three people who, they be how is she? Like how is she really cool? Like, you know, like, it's this idea that like, that these kind of like, these labels of, I call this like, like, mysteryness that like, I'll say it into these, my true, my back is,

to people that don't realize, like, we are just as deeply committed to our, to what's the same as us as any reals. I started an interview with him. There are times where I know that it means for me to have the time I face to the wall and to have a strong clear everything out of the way, it's just gotta be me and Jesus right now. I can't hear from nobody else, I gotta

hear from you. Moments and unfortunately, we have lost the ability or that all of us are at most and at best are getting and mocking and following a man who only wants a humility and authenticity from us. Like, he only wants us to be human, right? That like, that that means that I don't claim to know everything or get it right. Like, I tell people all the time, I may get to it to heaven and gotta be like, okay, you're saying a lot so

family. I don't know where you got half of it. That is that is a reality. And at the same time, I tell people I would hope that I would God I did some stuff, but I hope that you, you honored that that that what I was saying ultimately was to make the kingdom more expansive to include people that feel like they are outside of it. Yeah. Um, to to come back. And I just feel like I feel like the places where I may believe that I am right, and I may learn in glory that I was wrong,

that I will still be counting good because my heart and my attention's where. And that also doesn't make a gap if I get there. I'm where I'm in, where I have a moment with God. And God's like, what you just did or what you said, that what I mean, and I have to go back and be like, yeah, I'm sorry, I said that. I was, and I think that that is what it means,

a mental gracious accountability. And I try to do that in real life, the other two. God, I feel like that's a lot of my business. I'm not a model gracious accountability. And I try to do that in religiosity. I'm like, that's a lot of my business. Yes, ma'am. I love it. I thought all of my business, because part of it was like, I can't hold the church accountable. I can talk about the ways that the church

and the institution misses the mark. If I'm not willing to be very honest and transparent the church of an institution, Mrs. DeMarc. If I'm not willing to be very honest and transparent about the things that I have listed, and the way that I will miss it, because I'm human, but what does it mean to model that kind of gracious accountability so that people can do that in our own eyes? But yeah, I think people will be surprised

and have been surprised when they get to know me or when they see my friend circle. And last, when my friends are like, I don't know, I had time where she's talking about. But they also, I'm at the work that I do as a scholar and a theologian to have these kinds of conversations that are important to have in certain spaces

and they support that, even if they don't, even if we, like you said, they're out of the parkers. And those departures don't mean that we cannot still walk together because we do. And those the parkers, both of us, stronger in our relationships and helped me to see my growing edges as much as it helps in the city there. But yeah, I think here, I think I would hope that we are coming into a moment where there is room for more sisters like I say that. Like there, like I remember going into writing

relative theology and telling my publisher and telling my editor, like I don't want people to, I don't want to write a book that has me stand in opposition to the church because there would be a lot. Like, and I don't want a book that makes me sound like the way that people have written off the church and who have these very and mystic relationships with Christianity and with the church,

like church. I don't want a book like that. I want a book that's honest, right? And I want to book that reflects what I've experienced and what other people might have experienced. And that honors the journey that some of us had to go on to discuss those from that stuff. So that we could come into a deeper relationship with God,

so that we could go back into healthy relationships with the church. But I remember feeling like that, like feeling like I don't, I already am, I'm actually lady, and I'm already exiled in a lot of places. I don't want the book that reflects or just the size of people

have already assumed to be. And so I was really concerned of that one where I was one before even started. And I'm so grateful that my publisher convergent, as well as my editor portion, Wack with me through a process, she would, when I write something, she would ask her her own questions, and she would say, okay now,

this thing is, do you sound like you, you know, you throwing them all away? And I'm like, okay, but it's not a meant, right? And so, so it was a process, and I think the reception has been with, I mean, it's a whole denial, it's a denomination. We just got a note a couple weeks ago that the women's department of this denomination adopted religiosity of March.

And so I don't know, and was like ordering a book and rescinded it to every woman that's in the determination. And I remember I was like, I was like, y'all, y'all, y'all, cussing it right. I was like, she's the, y'all, just,

I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I just want y'all to know. I was like, I just want y'all to know.

I was like, I was like, I was like, okay, I was so like, I do talk about stuff and I was like, you know, we ran it. I was like, okay. I was so like, that from me, and then I have pastors and industries come to me and say, I really appreciated this book. A pastor sent me a video. I didn't even know him. He sent me a video from a sermon that he did.

He quoted. He cited and quoted a part of the book. And I was so grateful because I said, all these people don't agree with me. And they won't. And I get in my books so that everyone who's still agree, but the fact that people were able to read it

and know that like she is still one of us, she's still committed to the church, she still cares about the church. That made the whole process of writing it worth it for me. Mm-hmm. Candace, I feel like I could talk to you forever, because like the, it just keeps happening. We have to do something.

I feel like, I feel like the remover of the alley crew and the Lomani Vov crew won a lot of the out of the crew and the nominee of our crew one, a lot of them have the same. But I do think, I do think one of the things that has not happened that I would love to figure out a way to happen is the kind of conversation that a podcast does not grow for us. So those are the pictures. Like I think we don't have those kind of scenes enough to be like, well, this is what I think. Okay, well, this is what I think. And this is how I got here.

And this is, and that it's not this conclusion that has to be gathered, but the only places that I've seen the conversation happen are in the academy, right? Like, we're the kind of biological discussion where they're inside there. I've only seen that happen immediately. And when I think about Relathyology, I've only seen that happen in the industry. And when I think about Relic theology, I think about the systems that I encounter and I engage, a lot of them have questions.

And they're like, how did you get there? Like, okay, I catch with you right here, but I still want to agree. And those leave themselves to much more authentic, fuller conversations that I've been telling people. I don't think that the digital space gives the kind of, I think it's a certain level of intimacy that you have and say to you when we have those. And so I've been thinking about it you know for a while and I was like like she was like I would love for you to do like a red-lit theology retreat and I was like where

are you that could be vexed and boosted because I can't I can't be out here y'all guys but when she said that I thought about specifically for what you were just thinking about, like, what is it looking for sisters to get together and have conversations about the diversions? Yeah. And to know that you can have a conversation, and we're not going to lead a room and not be sisters. Not going to lead a room and have this antagonistic relationship, like it's going to be respect for,

but what you say, there's going to be respect for what I say, and our experiences, and listed and offered together. But I do think that we're at a moment and we're at a time where those kinds of conversations, we need to have them. And so I've been thinking about what that would look like. Okay, listen, if you've been following me on the socials, then you know I've been working now and eating healthier. I love cereal, though.

And thanks to Catalina Crunch cereal, I can still enjoy a bowl or eat it dry whenever I want and I am good for going into that bag to get some dry cereal. It's one of my favorite things. It tastes great. It's keto friendly which means it's low in carbs and has zero sugar. A quadruple threat that we love to experience. Okay there are eight flavors. My favorite is cinnamon toast. It's giving what needs to be gave. Catalina Crunch is a great replacement

to any sugary cereal for you or your kiddos. Just go to CatalinaCrunch.com slash evolve for 15% off your first order plus free shipping that's CatalinaCrunch.com slash evolve. Not sure which flavor to start with, that's all right. Try a variety pack and check out their delicious cookies and snack mixes while you're at it. The numbers don't lie, sis. Catalina Crunch has over 10,000 five star reviews. Be in the number by going to CatalinaCrunch.com slash evolve for 15% off your first order plus free shipping. You're really fortunate in that your mom really modeled that level of freedom of thought

for you because I think that my family system and I think the family system of a lot of people kind of forced this way of thinking on you and if you don't think this way, then you run the risk of no longer being a part of the community. And so I've had my own like pulling and wrestling and you don't know how to talk to people. So I'm not going to talk to you no more within my own family system that I think has finally given me a space of autonomy and strength and independence in my own thought that I feel like I can settle into it, but I think a lot of people are afraid

to receive what God gives freely, which is free will. Free will to think, free will to ask questions. And so I think that people do wanna see, like how do I have these conversations and still stay in community? And it does have to be modeled. And I think I do think that this is the beginning. I know that people are gonna like,

they know you and they know me, and they're gonna be like, what is this gonna be? Somebody gonna be like, y'all, you betrayed the code. Why would you sit down with them? And then there's gonna be other people. I think the majority of people are gonna appreciate Hearing that is possible that is possible to have loving respectful honoring conversations and to know That the conversation continues and so we got a text About how the conversation continues

We got a text about how the conversation continues. With it, it happened. And I'm I'm excited. You have been somebody who I have, and I told you this privately, but she said somebody who I felt close to, even before we connected. And so to get to know that I have, I just don't remember what I was talking about you, too, has just been really inbearing to me. And I'm grateful for that. And so, you know, I really got stuff in my, I group chats, because I know you so like, uh, that is like my blood, I wish I, what's all going today? Oh, now I work. Well, let me take a heart.

So like, it is, it is going to enjoy, and I look forward to the ways that I think, um, or to the ways that I think that it will continue not just for us and the relationship we're developing, but for systems who look to us and want to figure out what that looks like to model those kind of conversations. And who are also looking for a certain certain of just transparency as it relates what it means to be in spaces and that the it does not have to look the same. It doesn't have to look the same. We're not out here trying to make copies of ourselves, but we are trying to say that what it is it looks like to be free on who you are

and journey for a set and be free and deep in relationship that you have with God and thrive there. And then where to come back full circle to what you said at the beginning, like, I am at a place where I'm living my life where I know I am thriving. And it is all because the relationship I have with God and the relationship I have with myself, I rooted in truth and integrity and honesty, respect and love.

And you can't, it don't mean that there are days that make me feel like, oh, you know, but I am diving. And I never thought that that was, I never thought that that was, I never thought that kind of freedom I had in my self possible. And when you get here, you just want to give it to everybody. You just want to give it to everybody. And so I still got, I still got, growing into the myself, I always places to go other things to grow into, but I'm free.

And to say that, right now, looking back on a time when I was not is the most amazing thing. Paul, that's finger snaps. We're done here. We're checking out. That was beautiful. I hope you listen back at that part of it, because that's an ode to yourself.

That is worthy of hearing over and over again. So thank you. Thank you, girl. Thank you. Okay, I'm going to slide into the text messages and we're going to figure some Thank you. Okay, I'm gonna slide into the text messages and we gonna figure some things out. Okay, I'm done. Okay, bye.

Great, bye bye. Childless, and I've not said child in a long time, but that was worthy of a child. That last part that Candace shared about where she is in her journey, I think, is the hope that I pray every woman experiences, that we get to this place where we look back at our journey and our story and we see the power in it. We see the conflict, we see the trauma, we see the areas where things got weird. But then we also see those moments as salvation. Thank you Candace for sharing your story with us.

I feel like I know you better and that because I know you better, I also know a piece of myself better as well. I hope that this blessed you, the way that it blessed me, chastinous and no or a comment, let us know what you think about this episode. While you're at it, I want to talk to you. I want to know your story. I want to know about your swimming're at it, I wanna talk to you. I wanna know your story. I wanna know about your swimming, your drowning,

your standing on the land. Send an email to podcastatwomanyvov.com. Maybe you know a woman who has a story and she won't tell her story. For us, her to tell her story. Send us her information. We will call us this and tell us this. Come be on the podcast.

If you wanna advice questions send it to podcastatwomanyvov.com. You know what it is. We not new to advice questions send it to podcastatwomanevolved.com. You know what it is. We not new to this. We true to this. I'll see you next week. you