WSJ What’s News - Chasing the Vote: How Election-Fraud Claims Go Over in Georgia

Episode Date: September 22, 2024

Top Democrats have argued that democracy is on the line in the presidential election because Republican nominee Donald Trump is a threat to American political norms. They often bring up his actions after the 2020 election, which are the subject of a criminal case in Georgia. Trump has pleaded not guilty and says it is just political bluster. Republicans also say democracy is on the line, but their worries center on government overreach and the potential for voter fraud. WSJ political reporter Jimmy Vielkind travels to the battleground state to find out which version of the argument is swaying voters. Relevant links: Georgia Election Rule Prompts Concerns of Chaos and Delays  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Can you expound on that a little bit? Like, what do they mean when they say democracy's on the line? That's Carlton Perkins. He's 41 years old, and I met him in Lawrenceville, Georgia, where he just moved from North Carolina. The city is just far enough from Atlanta to feel like its own small community rather than a generic suburb, but it's close enough where people can commute. It's also one of the many growing areas in Gwinnett County, a crucial political battleground. Carlton voted for Donald Trump over President Biden in 2020,

but says he's undecided this year. Other voters I met in Georgia, including one holding a barking dog, had a clear sense of what politicians mean when they say democracy is on the line, sort of. Biden keeps saying that, but I think he's been worse for it. He and his approaches have been worse for democracy than anything that Trump has done. On the other side, I can see why someone might say democracy is on the line, because I do see some of our freedoms being taken away, or at least the attempt to do so when it comes to gun control. For Trump supporters, it means that Democrats will use the power of big government to control

more aspects of their lives and the economy. Many also believe there was widespread fraud that changed the outcome of the 2020 election, even though there's been no evidence to support that. When Democrats say democracy is on the line, they mean that Trump is a threat to norms in American politics. They point to his conduct after the 2020 election, including the January 6, 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol by Trump supporters. Trump himself has said that this rhetoric has, quote, taken politics in our country to a whole new level of hatred, abuse, and distrust. Earlier this month, the

former president survived what appeared to be a second attempt to assassinate him this year. Authorities haven't identified a motive in either case, but Republicans have said this threat to democracy rhetoric from Democrats is to blame. Trump just seems like he wants to be a dictator. It all seems very scary. I mean, they took over the Capitol. They, they, Pence was in there and you sent people to go get the vice president.

Come on, man. His vice president. So is that enough to make you never support Trump? I would never support him. This is an election unlike any that Americans have seen in generations, with voters having to quickly absorb some major twists. Trump is the first former president to have been convicted of a crime after a New York jury found he falsified records to cover up hush money paid to a porn star. He's also facing federal charges of trying to subvert the 2020 election and is under legal scrutiny for allegedly mishandling

classified materials. And here in Atlanta, prosecutors allege that Trump led a criminal scheme to try to overturn the results of the election in Georgia by pressuring Republican officials to help him secure the state's electoral college votes. Trump has pleaded not guilty to all the charges and says he's the victim of a partisan witch hunt. His supporters often say the cases are just political attacks. I'm Jimmy Villekind and this is Chasing the Vote, a multi-part series from the Wall Street Journal. I've been traveling to battleground states to examine key issues in the presidential

race. Our last episode looked at abortion in Arizona. For our second episode, we've come to Georgia to explore how voters perceive threats to democracy and how they rank that issue with others like the economy. Biden won here in 2020 by less than 12,000 votes out of nearly 5 million cast. After the polls closed, Trump and his allies pressured election officials not to certify the results. The former president called Georgia's Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, asking him to quote, find additional votes, according to a recording of the conversation later released by investigators.

So what are we gonna do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break. Last year, prosecutors in Georgia unsealed an indictment that charged Trump with 13 felonies. A judge later threw out five of those counts. A trial won't happen before election day.

Basically, we've been in an election since 2020. Like, this never really stopped here. That's my colleague Cam McWherter. He's based in Atlanta, and we met along the Beltline, an urban trail that's spurred a lot of development over the last decade. — Because this place is packed. And all these businesses have sprung up, apartment buildings. So it's completely changed the shape of the city.

— Kim has covered how all that growth has made Georgia more politically competitive, and also the criminal case against Trump. — There is a huge portion of this state that firmly believes Donald Trump had the elections stolen. And there is a huge portion of this state that thinks that's absolute bunk. Most of those people are Democrats, and some of those people are Republicans. And it's become, it's sort of ripped the Republican Party apart here over the last four years.

And that's ironic because the Republican Party dominates the state. This message from the Democrats that democracy is on the line with Donald Trump. In Georgia, it sounds like that's pretty tangible. It certainly resonates with voters in Georgia. Every Georgian knows that issue, and it's certainly front and center. The debate here is happening on two levels. First, there's the presidential contest. Trump has continued to push false claims

of voter fraud and appearances here and on the debate stage this month with Kamala Harris. He's even picked fights with Georgia Republican leaders. They don't want the vote, to be honest. In my opinion, they want us to lose. That's actually my opinion. And we can't let that happen. Because if we lose Georgia, we lose the whole thing and our country goes to hell.

When he ended his campaign, President Biden said repeatedly that democracy was at stake, but he felt it was best to pass the torch to a new generation. For her part, instead of saying democracy is on the line, Vice President Kamala Harris talks about how she'll fight for voters' freedoms. The people of Georgia know what I know. There is a full-on assault on hard-won freedoms and rights, including the freedom to vote. On a more concrete level, Republicans have enacted several changes

to the state's voting statutes since Biden's 2020 win. Among other things, the new laws require identification to vote by mail, reduce the number of ballot drop boxes, and make it easier for people to challenge someone's voter registration, even if they don't know them. Here's Senator Max Burns, who sponsored a major voting overhaul, SB-202, in 2021. This is a reasoned, well-thought- out, collaborative effort from both bodies that dramatically expands voter access.

It provides consistency for absentee balloting, early voting. It provides the opportunity for us to ensure that our elections are secure. I met several voters who said they worried about election fraud and felt it affected the results. Sonny Hall is a contractor who had a stop the steal bumper sticker on his truck. He said he's so concerned, he doesn't vote. People may not be stealing or cheating every election,

but it appears they have the capability. I just want a fair election. Helen Butler sees things very differently. She's a former election official who also worked in corporate HR. Now she leads a nonpartisan advocacy group called the People's Agenda. Hello. You must be Helen? I'm Helen. Jimmy, the old guy. Hi, how you doing? Voter registration is part of what the group does, and its offices are packed with boxes

of palm cards that list voting deadlines. Butler told me the new laws are burdensome for election officials, and unnecessary. These laws were put in place in search of a problem that wasn't there. Yeah, so they say democracy's on the line. It sounds like in Georgia, democracy is an active fight. It has always been a fight, but even though it's a fight, I want voters to know that no matter what the barriers are, we're working to make sure we find a workaround so that they can actually vote without a problem. The People's Agenda was founded by the Reverend Joseph Lowry, a contemporary of Dr. Martin

Luther King Jr. during the Civil Rights Movement. Both were based in Atlanta. King is buried here. And Butler told me this hit me hard. I'm not going back to university to be your friend. I'm going so I can get Uber One for students. It saves you on Uber and Uber Eats. I'm there for zero dollar delivery fee on cheeseburgers, up to five percent off smoothies

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So I left Atlanta and went to the suburbs. That's after the break. ["Jazzman's Guide to the Future"] Hello. Jimmy Vielkind. Nice to meet you, Jimmy. Nice to meet you. One evening in August, I linked up with Jasmine Clark as she went out campaigning. She's a Democratic state representative, and she was the first black woman elected to represent her district northeast of Atlanta in Gwinnett County. When I was younger, Gwinnett County was extremely red, and parts of Gwinnett County, people

who looked like me just did not go there. In 2008, John McCain defeated Barack Obama here by 10 points. But the politics shifted as the county became more diverse. The Census Bureau estimates about 30% of people here are non-Hispanic white, roughly 31% are Black, 24% are Hispanic, and 14% are Asian. In 2020, Biden won 58% of the vote, while Trump got 40%. Clark's legislative district is more competitive, and she's out knocking on doors most nights. Do you hear people mention protecting democracy or feeling like, especially if you're talking

Democrats, do you feel them talking about it, the election in terms of high stakes, almost existential terms? Maybe not when I canvass, but sometimes when I am doing other things, yes. So for example, if you were here on a weekend when we have the Lilburn Democrats, we talk a lot about that stuff. The night we met in Lilburn, she knocked on 16 doors where no one was home. Finally, she connected with Jose Samaniego. Hi, are you Obe?

Yeah. Hi, Obe. I'm Jasmine Clark. How are you? I'm Jasmine Obe. I am doing well. Let me ask you, you are what, Republican? I am a Democrat.

I am a Democrat. I'm Republican, but I'm Chinese. Because you know. Samaniego immigrated to the U.S. from Ecuador and worked as a jeweler. He was a black man. He was a black man. He was a black man. He was a black man.

He was a black man. He was a black man. He was a black man. He was a black man. I'm a Republican, but I'm changed. You know who. Samaniego immigrated to the U.S. from Ecuador and worked as a jeweler. He's long voted Republican. But he said that's changed with Trump, and he told Clark he would support Democrats. I believe he's a very dangerous individual, so it's going to hurt everybody. There are some Republican officials who are also quite wary of Trump. One of them is Jeff Duncan, the former lieutenant governor of the state. He publicly rebutted Trump's claims of election fraud, and in June, he described the consequences

at an event I attended at the state capitol. There's also some tough memories in this building I've got. Lies, conspiracy theories around the 2020 election, so much so that I had to have armed guards around my office and my home, around my family, just to fight off the fact I didn't admit that the election was rigged, because it wasn't. Later in the summer, Duncan told me he's heard from a number

of conservative voters who were turned off by Trump's actions. That's why I'm making the unique, you know, bank shot that I'm playing is to be a conservative, but supporting Kamala Harris with everything I've got. To try to get a sense of how big a group that is, I went to nearby Covington. There's a big courthouse next to a central square that's lined with shops and restaurants. It's basically the Hollywood version of a cute southern town. I'm not kidding. Parts of the Dukes of Hazzard and Remember the Titans were filmed here.

People were out and about in the evening and stopped to share some thoughts. Justin Duncan, no relation, said he wasn't turned off. I'm always more conservative, just have been, policy-wise and everything. My dollar went a lot further when Trump was in there. You know, he rubbed some people the wrong way. You know, that's not what I'm voting for. Carlton Jones, a 60-year-old registered Democrat, brought up the notion of democracy being on the line.

We need someone that we can trust and someone that won't lie. And the issue of voters' rights should not be disarm. You know, the civil rights should be preserved. Angela and Scott Bogle live nearby and were about to enjoy a dinner out. They voted for Trump in 2020 and said their big issues were securing the southern border and helping the economy. Here's what Angela said when I asked about whether democracy was on the line. Our lifestyle, what America stands for, is on the line. We are not what this country

was set out to be. The people don't have a voice. It's a new day. How can you make the most of it with your membership rewards points? Earn points on everyday purchases. Use them for that long awaited vacation. You can earn points almost anywhere and they never expire. Treat your friends or spoil your family. Earn them on your adventure and use them how you want, when you want. That's the powerful backing of American Express.

Learn more at mx.ca slashyamx. Terms apply. That's what we need to move back to. And I feel like the Republican Party and Trump are moving towards that. I feel like the Democratic Party is taking that away from us. Given the starkly different reactions I heard from voters, I wondered if the argument about democracy being on the line really has the potency that some Democrats, like President Biden, think it does. More on that after the break. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for coming out. That's Gina Palmer, the owner of the She Salon in the Castleberry Hills section of Atlanta. It's a sleek space, and in June, Palmer hosted a press conference with local Democrats making

their case against Donald Trump. But after four years of Trump in the White House, my hope and confidence disappeared. The message of the day was strictly about the economy and small business. Only one speaker brought up the idea of Trump as a threat to democracy. Jason Estevez, a state senator, told me he thought pocketbook issues would have a broader appeal. I think the preservation of democracy is obviously an important issue, but at the end of the day the average voter is concerned about one thing, their family, and their pocketbook is directly tied

to how they feel about their family. I went back to Shees-Salon a few weeks later after Biden dropped out of the race to see what patrons thought. Women looked at their phones while their hair was colored and blow-dried. Deneen Durr, a retired project manager, said she liked Harris' position on abortion rights. The economy isn't a big motivator for her vote. I just think that everything's inflated since COVID, and so it's gonna take a whole lot of work just to bring it back to some type of normal level that what most people can agree with.

Everyone's not going to agree with the economy. I don't care who's president. Diana Edwards-Berry, a business student, was sitting under a dryer. She said she would vote for Democrats but wishes all candidates would talk more about policies that would benefit working people. And the Democrats' best message? They don't want Trump to be a leader. I mean, this is the strongest argument. Like,

you've seen what it has been, but it's going to be worse. I had a few takeaways from my conversations with Georgia voters. First, people here are more focused on Trump's actions after the 2020 election than in other states I visited, in part because voting rights are so hotly debated. Second, the democratic argument of democracy being on the line doesn't land well with everyone. I found older voters were more likely to embrace it. I also found that it was more important

when Biden was the candidate and Democrats had less to be excited about. It's hard to say how much of an impact it'll have, if any, with Republicans. But polls show the race is so close in Georgia that the election will be a game of inches. So even a small number of GOP voters who backed Trump in 2020 staying home or switching sides

like Jeff Duncan could be very significant. Throughout my conversations with Georgia voters, it was clear that Trump's fight over the election results has created a real headwind for him in the state. The main question in November will be whether he can convince voters to think about issues like immigration and the economy and tune out democratic attacks on how he handled himself after the last election. I thought about that when talking to Michelle Moll, an educator who said she was excited to vote for a fellow woman of color, Kamala Harris. Moll said she was a regular democratic voter and was generally pleased with Harris' positions

on the issues, even though nothing rose to the fore. The fear of Trump taking our democracy is very strong. I mean, I do believe people that are undecided, that is definitely a factor. Just for me, I just, I kind of feel like there will probably be democracy afterwards. I think that is a, you I think that is a big issue. Chasing the Vote is part of the Wall Street Journal's What's News. This episode was produced by Ariana Asperu and Jess Jupiter. Sound designed by Michael LaValle. He also wrote our theme music.

Editorial oversight from Joshua Jamerson, Philana Patterson, Ben Pershing, Scott Salloway, and Chris Sinsley. I'm Jimmy Vielkind, and I'll be back soon with another installment of Chasing the Vote. Thanks for listening.