WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1252 - Sterlin Harjo

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

Sterlin Harjo is relishing the opportunity to depict Native lives and stories on mainstream television with his new FX comedy series Reservation Dogs. But it's not like entertainment industry was a wide open door for Indigenous filmmakers like himself. Sterlin tells Marc about the DIY beginnings of his film career, the formation of his sketch group The 1491s, his friendship with Taika Waititi, and why he feels he's standing on the shoulders of artists like Charlie Hill, Gary Farmer, Wes Studi and others. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what is happening i do know that um i'm stocked up on uh covid tests and i'm i'm doing more road shows. Tonight, I will be in Phoenix at Stand Up Live. Tomorrow night, I will be in Phoenix at Stand Up Live.

I believe there are still tickets for that all vaxxed or proof of test in the last 48 hours show. Next week, Salt Lake City, Utah, August 19, 2020. 21, five shows. Tickets are available. There's not that many tickets left for Phoenix, but I know there's plenty of tickets left for the proof of vax or test within 48 hours in Utah. Because from what I understand, Utah is a little, we're going to die of COVID on this hill. No jabs for us dummies.

You can go to wtTFpod.com slash tour to see the upcoming dates. I'm going to probably be adding dates soon. There's a new Dynasty typewriter date. Is that up? I think that's in October. Yes, October 4th, I've added a Dynasty typewriter show at 8 o'clock. That's here in Los Angeles. I don't think that sold out. I didn't even know that it was up yet. I have not promoted it. So there you go. I'm very happy about this show today.

I talked to Sterling Harjo, who I did not know. And not only did I really not know him, I knew he had done comedy work and he was a Native American who was a known comedy figure, but I really didn't know the scope of it. I mean, my buddy Cliff Nesteroff features him quite a bit in his book. We had a real estate problem about Native American comedy, but I really didn't know. And when my producer said, you know, this guy's available. Do you want to check it out?

And I was like, yes, yes. I would like to know more about him. I just knew that I have never publicly spoken to a Native American artist. Certainly growing up in New Mexico, I'd met a few and I was surrounded by Native American painting and jewelry, obviously, and life. But I don't know if I had empathy or understanding.

Obviously, I did not to what that life looked like until I read an Ian Frazier book called On the Res and another Ian Frazier book called The Great Plains, which blew me away. and another Ian Fraser book called The Great Plains, which blew me away. The Great Plains, more about that region and all the tribes that populated that area. And On the Res was about reservation life. All this to say, he's an incredible filmmaker. He's made three feature films, Four Sheets to the Wind, Barking Water, and Miko. I've watched two of them. He also directed the documentaries This May Be the Last Time and Loveiko. I've watched two of them. He also directed the documentaries, This May Be the Last Time and Love and Fury. I watched both of those. He's got a new show on FX

on Hulu called Reservation Dogs, which takes place on a reservation about these four kids. I watched six of those. And I got to say, it was really a life-changing event for me to engage with this guy's work. I seem to be, you know, something has opened up in my heart as of late, some sort of new level of engagement around, I guess, a deeper empathy, you know, because it was always my understanding that empathy was only capable if you could put yourself in someone else's shoes or experience and i think that that is true i just don't think you can make assumptions i think uneducated empathy you know is is probably just sensitivity but when it when you're dealing with a different culture or even a different ethnic group who has had to deal collectively with a struggle that is not our lives, I think the depth of empathy is limited and could even appear condescending.

So what's happened to me over the last few weeks in engaging with Sterling's work and also engaging with Barry Jenkins's Underground Railroad, I'm going to talk to Barry soon, was that my depth of empathy shifted to, I feel a deeper understanding of that struggle and that pain. Like I can't identify i didn't come from that but certainly the power of that fucking masterpiece was to you know really plant me in just exactly the horror that most black americans come from generationally now with sterling you know the native experience is different they were not indentured they were uh there was an attempt to destroy them entirely the american history of the native american is is a genocidal history and you know, after generations of adapting to reservations and sickness and a life that was brutally compromised, you have a culture that comes out of that. And we talk a bit about

casino culture, where things are now in terms of native identity. But watching all his films really sort of brought me into a way of life that I could not have had any understanding of. But also about how community, art, and music, ritual, all of this stuff was the stuff that aided in the survival of these different tribes and of the culture in general. And it all sort of permeates through his work. Just being exposed to both of these works recently, you start to realize that, you know, I know a lot of middle-aged white writers who are bitter because they can't get work now because they feel that they're being pushed out by minority hires, ethnic hires, diversity hires. But the truth is, is that many voices, marginalized voices have been kept out of this racket for a long time just because.

There was nepotism at play and legacy and, you know, handshakes and pats on the back and people are carried along institutionally. But the thing is, is that these these these can't this type of thinking around diversity higher or being pushed out by black people, women, Asian people, Native Americans, whatever it is, they always frame it as if it's unwarranted and that those people don't deserve the job. There have been people from all types of different backgrounds and races and cultures that have been chipping away, doing the work and quite inspired and brilliant that are have been shut out. And so now they're being let in. And what's happening is not anyone being pushed out. What's happening is the field, creative fields or whatever field you're working in where this is happening is becoming more competitive in an honest way and more representational of the voices of this country, which is the only thing that is going to save this fucking country if it is savable. I can't say it'll save the planet, but certainly the engagement of the creative voices of as many different backgrounds, cultures, genders, ethnicities as possible help to integrate the great collective understanding. Unfortunately, the media universe is so fucking fragmented,

you don't need to be marginalized to not be seen. Your work, that is. So I was thrilled to have the opportunity because of these bookings to engage with this stuff, and it really has changed the way I see things. I celebrated my 22nd year anniversary of my sobriety on Monday. And I am public with that. I tweeted, I have 22 years sober today. And it was interesting, the shit show that followed. A lot of congratulations, a lot of, you know, trolling. But it's just weird.

It's just weird. And it's weird to me that there's still a contingent within the recovery community that believes that, look, man, I get anonymity. And look, man, woman, he, she, they, it, thou. There's many ways to get sober. I don't care how you do it. The reason I am public, and I've said this before, I am publicly sober because it is possible. And again, I know what's worked for me. You know, people ask me, do you still go? Are you still in it? Do you still do the secret society? I'm like, I do sometimes. I, you know, I do, uh, not as much as I used to,

but I am engaged when I go on trips. I, I always have my books. Do I read them? No, but it's a reminder. This is a constant reminder. I talk to people in the club often, but I don't want to drink and I don't want to use drugs. That's what's happened. I don't know how you could get through 22 years

and still have that a day-to-day struggle i know that because i did it the way that i do it which is the secret society uh that it changed my brain you volunteer for a brain fucking and things are rearranged and you're like well this system this template will me. You don't have to do it perfectly. It's not possible. You have to do it by the book. You can, but then you're almost intolerable. But you can change your brain to see who you are differently, more honestly, and take responsibility for things you do.

And sort of take pause when you're about to do things that are stupid, like take a drink or ruin your life with your mouth. Or do a drug. But I don't care how you do it. I'm talking about it so you know it's possible. Totally possible. I'll tell you one thing. Being in that secret society taught me how to engage my empathy, taught me how to engage myself,

taught me how to be a little more selfless in light of other people's problems, taught me how to... It's really the foundation of this show. Two people talking to each other one person talking to another person to get out of their own head like if i'm going crazy or i want to drink or i want to hurt myself or i want to fuck things up if i just engage with somebody else to take my mind off me and my dumb desires, compulsions, fears, anxiety, and let somebody else tell me their story, their fears, anxieties, successes, then I'm not thinking about me.

And 99% of the time, after that conversation, whatever was going to drag you into the pit from within has gone away. The monster has crawled back into the hole for a little while. But anyways, that's why I share. And oddly, I want to own this. This is a self-owned in the sense that, you know, within the program, there is a tradition that is dated to that states that we should keep any we should keep it out of press radio films. You know that we shouldn't talk about it. People in the secret society in a.

And that's all fine. You know, there's no law. No one's going to kick me out. But I believe the reason was, is that if the person who does that drinks or gets mangled in a car because alcohol relapses, whatever, then people think that, you know, a, he, as someone who spoke about it publicly, he's a representative. It doesn't work. Well, look, man, those numbers are available. You want to see if it works or not? I want the percentage of people staying sober within the secret society are? They're not great.

But in the big picture, people staying sober in general after trying to quit, not great. It's hard. And people relapse. They die. They can't get out from under it. No matter what you use to stop. That's a reality. you use to stop that's a reality so any sort of inspiration any shared experience with the possibility of having a life without drugs and alcohol if they are ruining your life

is a good thing i don't give a fuck what anyone says i got a letter today with a chip which i don't have anybody in my life really in the way that like no one's going to buy me a chip. You get them when you go to the meeting, when you go, you know, announce your birthday. I got to do that. I got to do that. What day is it? I got to do that. I usually do that a couple of times.

You go out and, but no, the big chips are heavier. They're weightier. Last year I bought my 21-year chip myself. But I got this cute letter with a bunch of cats on the front of it. Mark Maron, hello. I suppose you'll get your 22-year chip at the home group like the rest of us. At least I hope you can this year. Please accept this one from me to you with gratitude for sharing your life so unselfishly through the podcasts and your IG Live.

selfishly through the podcasts and your IG live. Your show Marin gave me the courage to walk back into the rooms five years ago after an 18 year relapse. So happy 22 to you. Stay safe out there sending love and light one day at a time. there sending love and light one day at a time so there you go I guess that's worth breaking the tradition isn't it isn't it old-timers holders tight bleeding deacons. I'm so glad I got my chip. I don't carry them around, but I do for a few days. So this is exciting. Sterling Harjo is a very provocative and authentic artist, filmmaker.

His new show, Reservation Dogs, which he co-created with Taika Waititi, has new episodes every Monday exclusively on FX on Hulu. This is me talking to Sterling Harjo. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that.

An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Oh.

I, you know, I feel like I'm actually more well prepared to talk to you than I have been for anybody. Why is that? Just the links that we send you? Well, no, because there's something going on with me.

I don't know what it is. But I watched Four Seats to the Wind, which is your what, second feature? First. First feature, yeah. And it was so whole, so complete, and such a specific sort of story about specific people who are of their own.

Yeah. You know, Native Americans are of their own, its own trip, right? Yeah. It's its own trip. Yeah. And I tapped into it when I was earlier in my life. You know, obviously, you know, Pow Wow Highway, which wasn't done by Native American, but, right?

Is that what we say, Native American? Yeah. I mean, I say Indian, but, you know. Indian? Yeah. And Native. I say Native. Native? I tell white people to say Native, you know. Native. Yeah. A native, I say native, you know,

I tell white people say native, you know, native. Yeah. So Indian is something you guys can use. Yeah. I mean, I mean anyone, I would let you say it for sure, but like, I think it's uncomfortable for white folks to say it. Uh, we say to each other, we say Indian, you know, to each other. And there will be people that disagree with that. But you know, if you hang out with a group of Indians, they're going to be saying India. Right. Well, I mean, but you know, that happens happens with the group but you don't read the white guy going

like what are you indians up totally you know maybe not you know unless you know them all oh shit but uh but okay so so i remember powwow highway but there's something that's never left me is that i read ian frazier's book oh yeah on the red yeah what do you think of that book i really like that book okay you know i thought it was honest portrayal of his what he was going through right but you don't you don't say like you know who is he to write a book about i don't do that you know it's from a point of view you know yeah but you know there were certain things that he captured about life on the reservation and about the native people yeah that i thought was like it made me like reassess my own life yeah in terms of what I do with time

yeah yeah totally yeah time's different time is different it is right it is time's different and timing is different so anyway so I watched a lot of stuff I watched uh you know that one four seats and when I watched Miko I watched this may be the last time, I watched Love and Fury. Oh, cool. And I watched the four episodes of- Awesome, man, you really did. Of Reservation Dogs. And Cliff Nesteroff told me that you featured Large in his book. Yeah. And also, I wear a Zuni ring.

Oh, good. Not that that matters. No, that's good, yeah. We're cool, man. We're in. But also, here's the broader point, is that I started to realize after watching your stuff and after watching the Underground Railroad that the voices of marginalized people, of oppressed people in this country, that the only thing that kept them from being completely destroyed was a sense of community and a sense of an appreciation of human love and tenderness amongst each other.

And sort of embracing that vulnerability, which I saw a lot of in Love and Fury. There was something about Love and Fury that really sort of got me reconnected with the artistic journey of people that aren't careerists. Yeah, exactly. And then I started to realize, like, in the Native community, the idea of creativity, art, ritual, community, everything's entwined. It all speaks to each other. Guaranteed. And still does. Yeah.

So that's what gave me hope. Yeah, man. I mean, you know, like, Take and I have talked about that a lot, how, um, Tyke and YTD who created reservation dogs with me. But, um,

we've talked about that, like how, you know, we all had uncles and aunties that were artists. They didn't call themselves artists. Right. You just, they could draw.

Right. And it was such a part of life. And I think it was also part of ceremonial life as well. And just the community that like, you know, it's just, I think it's a practice that native people did and it wasn't such a big deal or it wasn't hailed as this thing but like love and fury for sure i mean you know that the style of that movie was inspired by i don't know if you

ever seen uh heartworn highways uh guy clark uh towns van zant and steve earl documentary is a documentary about them kind of right before their careers took off. I think Steve Earle's like 19. Oh, really? Yeah. And it's like. Before the crash. Yeah. And all it was was following them.

Yeah. And, you know, kind of just fly on the wall stuff. And I wanted to do that with these artists because I just feel like it's Native arts always presented in this really precious way. I know. I grew up with it. Yeah, exactly. New Mexico for sure.

And it's like such a market down there. It was a huge a huge market yeah and i wanted to just show it like it is you know it's like people just creating but you know what the fascinating thing about it is you know outside of but even maybe some of the noise music is that you can hear uh a native american voice in it yeah rhythmically or just avoid like you can hear it yeah is that possible that is yeah it is and and and that to me like i watch that documentary rumble which is okay yeah but i thought your documentary was better because these are you know people that are clearly have their own personal struggles because what what you bring to the table and you yourself do but you are not it doesn't seem to me a shattered person is that you know the history of the indians here

you know you and and what that and what the repercussions were of that yeah on in contemporary levels whether it's alcoholism abuse you know and and that one guy who did that piece about all the missing and murdered yeah i mean jesus christ man so like these modern repercussions and byproducts of the attempted genocide you know kind of ricochet through yeah and those be those shattered voices become you know the modern art yeah of of the of the people right man that's right and and you know i think i can feel you know i think we felt that you know it's like people always would ask me like what you know what are you doing like like you you know, it's like people always would ask me like, you know, what are you doing? Like, like you live in Oklahoma.

Like, why are you there? Like you come to LA and like, but no one was trying to make our films, you know, no one was trying to make our art. Now. Yeah. Then. No, then. What, like 10 years ago?

But that's, that's now. Yeah, exactly. Now. So the representation of the Indian was Indian was still way outdated and off. It was from a white person's vantage point. All of it was. I mean, all of it was. You know what I mean?

And we fed that, too, because we had to make money. And I think Native people fed into that a bit. And so you have these depictions of us in Hollywood that are so off, off base. I mean, there's no humor. And in the Westerns, we're sort of the zombies, right? We're base. I mean, there's no humor. Yeah. You know, and like in the Westerns, we're sort of the zombies, right? We're the walking dead. Sure, just yelling on horses.

Yeah, we're the soulless, faceless things that are in the way of Western expansion and we have to be eradicated. Yeah. And that's all we had. I mean, I grew up like watching movies. I remember my dad and I, we'd watch, my dad called me in the front room one day

and he was like, hey, there's a, I'm Seminole. I'm Seminole in Muskogee Creek. And he's like, hey, there's a, I'm Seminole. I'm Seminole in Muskogee Creek. And he's like, hey, there's a movie called Seminole Wars. Let's watch it. You know, we sit down and it's like nothing Seminole about it. You know, it's like Lakota's, they're speaking Cheyenne, you know, and like the actors are Navajo as well. I don't know.

Like it was nothing, but we didn't give a shit because it was like, wow, we're being represented. You know, like let's watch it and look past all of that. So you didn't feel like an anger about how Indians were being used at that time. I guess that must have come later to some degree. Yeah, later it did for sure. Right. Yeah. I mean, like, it took me to go to college to go to really learn about the Trail of Tears and know that everyone that I grew up with in my life, the Trail of Tears, I'd heard of it.

My grandma talked about it. It was in a paragraph in every book. But it's real shit. I mean, like, it's real shit that we went through. And thousands of people died in the Mississippi River. And we lost songs. We lost medicine men, medicine women. We lost holy people.

We lost regular people. We lost children and everyone. And so i feel like i a native person you're born into a bit of a rebellion like i grew up knowing like my grandma and then would tell me about the trail of tears and how how they would kill babies if they were crying at night the soldiers and and and just to know that the reason i exist is because people survived this trek from alabama alab to get to Indian Territory, Oklahoma. Right.

And it was that that that sense of community, that sense of some sort of spiritual, you know, perseverance. Yes. And also humor, I think. Like, that's one of the things with Reservation Dogs for me is like. Well, they definitely. Yeah. And it's like we wanted to like tyke and i we created the show because we'd always get together and i've been friends with him for a long time right and we would just

tell stories from home and they were never sad they're always funny well what's the how does i guess there is a there is some sort of comparison a bit to the the new zealand native experience yeah very similar i mean like you know i've traveled through new zealand with tyka show and film yeah and uh so similar those communities i, it's so weird, because it's like, indigenous people so far away from each other, but they're just like, similar humor, similar lives. It's that sense of time thing. And it's a sense of like, no matter how sort of complicated the world gets, you know, they're still tethered to, you know, what's left of their communities communities and usually to, you know, what the government has given them as a place to live. Exactly. And this butting up against kind of, and this rebellion, I think, too, you know, and like. Well, as long, it's weird how much of it becomes self-directed, right?

Yeah. I mean, for sure. I mean, like, you know, just growing up in these communities and one of the things that I'm trying to, you know, express with is like you know we have our own clinics yeah i love that yeah not only but there's the thing that you do great with reservation dogs is that you know that everything has is playing its part that the clinic in and of itself is is a part yeah and you you understand it very quickly and even as somebody who doesn't live there you understand what's happening yeah that's just like this is gonna take a while yeah there's one doctor there you know bobby lee and it's bobby lee of all people you know it's funny because i i you know i've seen you at the comedy store i've watched kirk foxx at the comedy store i've seen bobby

lee at the comedy store and uh you know like oh you know kirk fox can deliver a line like no one else sometimes he's just like one of you know i love that weird slow yeah and just a fan of comedy you know it's like uh getting some of those guys and bill burr's in the show too you know yeah um we're gonna get you next season okay i'll do it but but you did you like coming up like how many because i was just there was a lot of how common is the name Harjo? Harjo's common. Okay, yeah. When you're Seminole and Creek.

Okay. It means crazy. Okay. It means crazy in battle. And there's a poet laureate right now, Joy Harjo. Right. She's featured in some of the docs that you did. Yeah, exactly.

She's a poet. There's artists. I mean, I can't go anywhere without... I'll be in Europe and people are like, do you know a Ben Harjo? I'm like, man, I don't. I'm sorry. It't go anywhere without, I'll be in Europe and people are like, do you know a Ben Harjo? Like, man, I don't. I'm sorry. You know. It's like Chavez or Jones.

Yeah, it is. It is back home. I mean, if you're in Oklahoma and you look in the mail, in the phone book, which no one does anymore, there's a lot of Harjos. Yeah. But what, so did you grow up, you didn't grow up on a reservation? I grew up, so Oklahoma was kind of one big reservation at one point, Indian territory. It was, there's 38 tribes there.

They moved us all there because they were like, let's get them out of the land. We'll put them in the middle, you know, where there's like dust storms and shit. Maybe they'll do something with the land. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That was sort of the impulse, right? Give them that. See if they can make a farm.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I grew up there. So at one point it was a reservation. I grew up there. At one point, it was a reservation, but then, of course, as with everything, oil was found. And you could profit from it. Yeah, and everyone moved in, and outlaws came in. I mean, anytime you see True Grit or anything, they're always in the territory.

That's Oklahoma. Real cowboy shit happened in Oklahoma. Yeah, definitely. I grew up in a town called Holdenville, home of Teebin Pickens and Clue Gulliger. And it was just a small town, but very diverse. There were black kids, white kids, and native kids. We just grew up together. And it was a pretty magical experience.

I feel like looking back, and I want to reflect that in my work, because it was diverse and you had to get along. We were all put in a town together sure and came up and it was the country you know it's like yeah country music and slow days you know i think that's like the interesting because i i saw a lot of that in new mexico but i don't think that people like what i'm excited about in terms of the movies and and this tv show is that I don't think people have any sort of honest perception of native life. And like I didn't really, but I did from reading the res on the res and something always stuck with me was that, you know, that if someone wanted to get up early, there's one bit in there where it's like, if you want someone to to get up early they drink more water at night so they'd have to pee and they'd wake and

i'd be like fucking genius and then it's like they they build an entire day around getting this car part yeah man i mean that's the thing that's the thing with me is is i grew up with the best storytellers yeah and and it's not like cheesy native like sit around a fire and let me tell you a story it's just like my aunts and my grandpas and grandma sitting around a kitchen drinking coffee yeah telling stories and what i love is their stories would be nothing would happen to them it's like we went to the store but everything would happen the way they tell it is so big and so for me with reservation dogs that that's what i always have tried to capture them is to tell these stories that it's not like epic things are happening but they're huge you know they're big

for these people and their lives well because there's a sense of of of journey right yeah because you're not you're not building your life like you don't see things like it's not running an errand yeah it's just that's a day yeah right day right so you don't look at it like we got to go get this done or whatever it's just sort of like we're doing these things yeah this is what the day is and i and also like there's just the the idea of the evolution of uh craftsmanship like the i the fact that there's a the woman who'sading, who, you know, like, I don't know why she's, you know, scary or crazy, but I know she's beading. And, like, I remember we had a Hopi beaded horse that, like, we sold at a yard sale that I remember to this day. We sold it.

My parents had gotten it. And some cowboy just, he came up to the yard sale, and he was just looking at stuff, and he picks that up. And he's like, how much is this? And I'm like, five bucks. And I know that like after he walked away, I'm like, that was worth $500. Yeah, exactly. But like, but the fact that this woman is beading and she's making a necklace for a rapper. Yeah.

That these things continue, right? These ways of, these crafts continue. Yeah. And they're all still actively part of it. So actively part of it. And then her day was going to be making this microphone for the kid's dad. Like, I don't want to ruin the show. Yeah.

I love that rap video, though. Yeah, man. That was great. Half of my family's in that video. Really? Yeah. Just a fry bread thing. Because I grew up going to the New Mexico State Fair.

And they'd have Indian Village. Yeah. And you'd go over there and get that fucking fry bread. Totally, man. Indian taco. I gave Bill Burr his first Indian taco. It was pretty great. What's an Indian taco?

I mean, it's just literally taco topping on top of a fry bread. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But that craftsmanship, it was all a part of survival. Right. And it has continued, and it's still a part of survival. In the sense of selling the stuff? Selling stuff, making money.

Yeah. White people like it. And now we have money and we can buy it now. Yeah. Yeah. I like the, I like the way, you know, that I really like that bit in there with the, you know, white people's medicine versus that guy sitting out front, you know, because that's real shit, right?

you know, white people's medicine versus that guy sitting out front, you know, because that's real shit, right? There's a, there's definitely an aversion on behalf of, you know, blacks and native people who have been either, you know, uh, infected or sterilized. Yeah, man. That, that goes on for generations. Yeah. I mean, I mean, what is it? Like 90% of the indigenous population was killed through disease.

Like that shit stays with you. I think it stays with the people, right? Like, I mean, yes, man. Yeah,

it does. And you know, like I just, I think like, but one of the things that, you know, we've never, I just wanted to express and show the,

I wanted to celebrate our community because it's never really been done. I do all the work. Yeah. Through all the work. Yeah. I could, that's, I feel that.

So how did you start like where did you how many siblings you have i have two brothers and two sisters and they're all around yeah they're all around they're all around they're in oklahoma i still live in tulsa yeah you know that's another thing you did you made me start to rethink oklahoma yeah man thank god because there's been some people on here talking shit about oklahoma not really you had a guy recently that just moved back. Yeah, you did. No, for sure. He was okay with it. And yeah, no, he, he seemed to like it. What is it out there, man? Yeah. The director, the director. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, I'm glad that people are moving back, but like, I love Oklahoma. I do like it. Like I, cause I, I mean, you let, you can drive in any direction, 30 minutes and you're in a new tribal territory with new languages, new customs, a whole different tribe.

I don't think white people look at it like that. They do. Because I think that like, you know, if you go to Pawhuska, for instance, where they're shooting Killers of the Flower Moon right now. Yeah. Because the native tribes have saved those towns because of casinos. Yeah. So, so there are towns that would be shit right now if not for the native tribes. Yeah.

And the economy and the people that they've hired and rebuilt these towns. You know, like the town of Ada, Oklahoma. It's the home of the Chickasaw Nation. That place is like thriving. Right. That's the town where Innocent Man was written about. I don't know that. That dark ass story about the guy that was wrongly convicted. Oh um you know it was kind of going nowhere but the chickasaw

nation through gaming and through different things that they did with their through their like economic uh advances or whatever they they've built rebuilt that town you know how does the culture in general like uh, see the casino industry? I mean, you know, it's a conservative place as well, you know? So you have the naysayers and the people that are like, oh, it's bad for us or whatever. But it's like, man, fuck off. Like, we found the loophole, dude.

We found the loophole and we made some money. You getting checks? And now you got, no, no, no. I don't get checks. But, like, like you know my tribes it goes filters back into different programs you know the health care and different that's how they handle it yeah so it's tribe for tribe how they disperse the money yeah you can disperse in different ways and most of them kind of go through uh just kind of build up their own programs that benefit their their members so like housing health care things like that government certainly didn't do it. Exactly. And so, you know, we found a way to do it.

And so for me, it's like, man, like, it's this thriving operation in the middle of, you know, one of the reddest states in the country. Yeah. And what, like, is there, like, how, what is the dynamic between the sort of generalized white collective and the native people? Well, if you've been in Oklahoma for a number of generations, you're part native.

You have natives in your family at this point. Right, right. So it's very much accepted and more celebrated. You'll have your conservative. So there's a lot of Republican Indians. I don't think so. I just don't think so i just don't think so i mean maybe you know probably if they're not too connected to the culture yeah um i just think natives don't vote in

national politics as much oh they're out yeah yeah and like you know and we kind of have our own thing going on there i mean like i can't speak for all of them obviously but like you know i i just think it was a it was a great way of growing up i mean my grandma you know i grew up in holdenville oklahoma right country you know and i'd be at my grandma's house and one of the coolest people was her white farmer neighbor you know like it was very open and when i was a kid i felt like i didn't feel different yeah it wasn't until i got older and i was like oh shit like yeah it's all fucked up like but i didn't feel different when i was young you know so when did when did you start to get into uh

you know like it seems like rumblefish had a profound effect on your oh it did brain it did outsiders rumblefish yeah i mean all that stessy hint and stuff you know i mean that was oklahoma yeah it was all in tulsa and uh but like there's a couple of straight up homages to rumble fish in one of the movies yeah you still you rewrote that graffiti yeah on that underpass exactly exactly like yeah motorcycle boy rains right is it rains or lives motorcycle boy rains i think yeah yeah and i was like i know it does you know that was in miko that was in miko and then in uh reservation dogs when the guy lifted up guy who lifted up. When he floats up. Yeah, when he floats up.

Straight up. Yeah, straight up. Straight up Matt Dillon. Yeah, straight up. It was funny because I was, you know, the two references that I had for the DP were like, you know, it was like Friday. And because, you know, Friday was South Central LA, by all accounts, the ghetto, dangerous place.

Yeah. But that's a celebration of a community. Right. It's funny. Yes. And it's colorful. Yeah. And it's quirky. Right. And that's what, you know, I wanted to do with Reservation Dogs. It's like celebration of a community. Right. It's funny. Yes. And it's colorful. Yeah. And it's quirky.

Right. And that's what, you know, I wanted to do with reservation dogs. It's like, yeah, yeah. You know, you can look at it with one gaze, which is like, oh, they're poor. Don't you feel sorry for them? Yeah. I didn't feel that. No, not you.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying in general, you can look at a reservation life like, oh, they need our help. Right. Yeah. You know, there's some like guilt built into that. Yeah. Or you can look at it and say, um, the way I look at it and with the way I present it, which is like, no, it's fun.

It's funny. It's a celebrate. Like it's a great community, thriving community. So that was the one reference and Rumblefish was the other reference? Rumblefish was the other one. Yeah. And the Outsiders. Well, I mean, it's interesting because like after watching, you know, the episodes I saw,

you do ask yourself, like I asked myself, is this for young adults? And I'm like, well, I just enjoyed it. Yeah. So what does that mean? And, you know, and speaking of S.E.e hinton these are kids that that age yeah exactly like uh really and they're dealing with real shit but they're also being kids you know i think those books and those movies captured that you know for sure yeah um so when you're growing up when did you start to you know have this idea that you could do this i didn't you know like i

always wanted to be i always thought I'd be a painter. I was the kid that, like, everyone at school, when they needed a poster drawn, like, I would do one. Oh, you were the painter? Did you have painters in your family? My dad's an artist. He didn't paint, but he's a really good artist. What's he do?

You know, he was a construction worker, roofed houses most of my life. What's his medium of art, though? Draw, just pencil. Oh, yeah. Pencil and a pen, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He used to draw, like, Leon Russell. I have this drawingon russell that he did and with the top hat yeah yeah and the sparkle in his eye exactly yeah he's playing the piano i think i

have one that he did of van morrison sure um and then you know he would draw sitting bull you know some of the native heroes sure gotta do this the classic sitting bull exactly the one the one picture exactly yeah um so you know i always grew up with art and there was just an appreciation for Gotta do the classic sitting bowl. Exactly. The one. The one picture. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I always grew up with art and there was just an appreciation for it. But my dad, you know, was a construction worker, worked hard and ended up working for the school. After that, my mom always worked for the tribe, the Seminole Nation. And, you know, and she also cut hair. Like I used to have like crazy perms and shit.

Like she sprayed sun in my hair one time and turned it orange. And used to have the brian bosworth haircut i remember like really all the fresh haircuts she would give me because you try them out yeah exactly and like but i didn't know movies was possible you know i i remember being a kid my dad bringing home um the making of thriller and that was the first time i really was like well well, like they make this shit, but it's not just happening. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, just magic. Yeah, exactly.

And, you know, but then my, my dad had a, um, friend that worked for the cable company and he hooked us up with free cable. And so we, it was like this time period of watching HBO and it was like, stand by me, which was a big reference to reservation dogs. So it was like, stand by me, the, you know, Goonies you know goonies the lost boys the lost boys i love them yeah all of that like sort of sort of 90 like late 80s yeah 90s uh films yeah and platoon oh yeah and oh you did there's he didn't yeah he did the paintball that's right yeah yeah yeah and you know my dad i was never like um i was never censored like i watch anything and we watched like old war movies together the big red one

I remember watching that Hamburger Hill yeah Hamburger Hill oh yeah yeah and my dad was we will watch a movie to death

and I think it helped me in writing because like I would he and I could quote movies you know like The Outsiders or whatever I didn't know

I could make it though and that was it wasn't until I went to college. Where'd you go? I went to the University of Oklahoma. Yeah? And I kind of didn't get the GPA. I was in painting school.

I didn't get the GPA for art. So you wanted painting? How was your painting? I mean, it's not like riding a bike. I need to practice. But did you feel like you were getting yourself out in it? I did feel like I was getting somewhere and getting better, you know And I had a really good art teacher this white guy and mr. B

In my high school. Yeah, he was it You know, he was like one of those people that gave you life advice Sure, or he said even profound effect on me and I remember he's told me he said he said stop painting. Yeah, exactly No, he said if you really want to do this He's like don't have a backup plan or he's I don't have a fallback plan because you'll fall back That's right And he's like do you think I wanted to be a teacher and teach art? I know I wanted to be a painter and that just like really to hit me in the core

Yeah, it's like look at me exactly. Yeah, exactly and I kept that with me to this day, you know, it's like Don't be me. Exactly. Just this sage white man advice. And, you know, I just, that stuck with me. And I got to college and I didn't do well. I was partying too much. Didn't get the GPA.

Got put on academic probation. Yeah. And I decided to take an intro to film and video studies class taught by this Hungarian professor. His name is Mishina Delkovich. And it was through him where he showed me that cinema was a language. Right. I was sold then. Well, I mean, geez, man.

I mean, that first feature is tight. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't feel like a first feature. It's not rough. Yeah. You know, you kind of nailed it. Well, thank you you so i mean my bank account would say different back then i was like you know it was like i remember i went to the sundance labs what happened was i was in college and i wrote a script four sheets to win yeah i got accepted into the sundance labs and i thought

i was about to take over the town after that you know i was like this is it because it was like tarantino paul thomas anderson and went there who was your mentor uh i had you know jim taylor still a good friend of mine yeah um oh jim taylor i know yeah you know jim he talks about you we uh he was at the premiere of reservation dogs in new york he's still a good friend and um he's really good man i love that guy holy shit yeah he said he told me that he hung out with you a time or two way back in the day He used to date my first wife's friend. Yeah, and we yeah, and we kind of we hung out when he was partners with Julian Yeah, yeah, and he was like the first time I met him. He might have even been working at Canon films Oh, that's right. He used to yeah, it was crazy. He told me some crazy ass stories about golem and go On and Globus. No, he's a good dude, and he was a he was a mentor of mine

We ended up writing a TV show together after that um oh yeah yeah and what happened to that uh it was killed it was like um yeah it was in the days of like um it was before streaming was big yeah and uh we sold it no we sold it okay and it was weird i mean this is a different industry then sure they the the people that we sold it to were like, we want to do this because Alexander Payne was going to be the executive producer and direct the pilot. And they said, we want to do this,

but only if Sterling doesn't write it and it's you and Alexander that write it. And it was just such a different time. It pushed the creator out. Yeah, exactly. It pushed the brown kid out. Yeah, exactly. And it was like a native show, you know? Really? Yeah, and it just ended up kind of fizzling out but from the Hungarian guy

You know, where do you where do you start to put stuff together? I mean, what do you start to do to engage your creativity around writing and you know, I was just so naive man I was like I'm gonna make films like I'm make films. And I found a kid that had a camera. I went and made this shitty movie that we'll never see the light of day. I shot it like David Lean. Because I'd just seen like- What, on 16 or beta? I don't know.

I was like, DV cam. And this kid had just graduated from the Dallas Arts Institute. So he was like, I got some good shit, man. I remember when we went to get the microphone. This is how dumb I was. I wanted to get the microphone yeah this is how dumb i was like i wanted to get the microphone we went to radio shack yeah and we're looking at the the different microphones this is to do all the production sound right and we're looking at the microphones and and there's one that's like 60 bucks and he picks one up that's like 25 yeah and i was like don't

you think we should spend the money yeah yeah and he's 60. Yeah. And he's like, it'll record the same. And it was literally just like a church mic, like a preacher's mic that we taped to a pole and we would just hang it in the middle of a scene. It didn't even like, it would never pick up sound. And we shot 90% of that. It's funny. I shot these like epic shots.

It was like, and it's so pixely and shitty that like, it just looked like a pixel of a guy walking through a field towards you you know like it like it was an effect yeah but i learned how to i fucked up and i learned how to you were not a frame i learned how to i learned how through fucking that whole thing up i learned how to make a movie because i learned what not to do yeah it's so funny the place radio shack held in our our hearts you just always go there for something and it was all garbage like you know radio shack brand batteries like every it was just crap you gotta go to radio shack no you don't i know and go anywhere else and they don't have good production sound recording

equipment either they got they got nothing i think we had a four track oh yeah yeah yeah so so that so that was it but then didn't you start making sketches and stuff yeah well you know i went to the sundance labs uh went out to la i was like i'm the toast of the town you were i was like i'm gonna i thought it was the toast of the town i was ready to you know i went you went out with the script of the film the script four sheets of wind i went out and i was trying to get financing and oh yeah and because of sundance yeah everyone took my meeting right but no one wanted to make the film and they would say things like um you know this would be really great but

like if there was a way to get philip seymour hoffman on the poster or someone with a name we could finance sure you know and um he was a mentor too like he read my script and gave me notes but did he yeah yeah he was at the labs and he was an actor there and okay he was at a screenplay reading he played characters in my script and just a sweet sweet guy yeah um and so after that i was like man i gotta get out of this town because they're not gonna make my movies at all so you did you feel like uh discouraged to spit out or that like this town wasn't for you like because like it's one thing to come out i mean i guess the sundance webs probably gave you some sense of the business yeah right it did but but i think it spoiled me in a way because they cared so much about my writing and the art artistic side of it and i wouldn't

be doing it without them bird running water at the sundance institute for the native program he's kind of like a scout that came out and found me in Oklahoma. But I wouldn't be doing this without that experience. But on the business side, just the industry, they didn't want to make this stuff. They would say things like, it's just not native enough or it's too native. But what is that? That's the interesting thing that would dawn on me when watching all your stuff is that this movement towards evening the – leveling the playing field around engaging marginal voices or unheard voices, like, it's got to get out of that model of, like, we did our one Indian movie. Exactly. It's got to be – it's got to have some, you know, relatively equal representation per the, you know, the spectrum, right?

Yeah, right. Per the spectrum, right? Yeah, right. And then all of a sudden you get something. I feel like there's a little progress being made in diversifying fiction. Now, if we could just make it occur in reality. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

I mean, like, exactly. I mean, like, you know, I would never want, you know, there's kind of a complicated thing, the diversity thing. Because I don't want, it's like you don't want to be the diversity thing because you because i don't want it's like you don't want to be given an opportunity that you don't deserve well i don't think that's what's happening i think a lot of people have been waiting yeah exactly like anyway because i i can't tell you how many white writers i hear like well they're probably just gonna hire a person that can do the job that's not like you yeah and and they they can't see it as anything but them getting fucked as opposed to it's more competitive.

Yeah. Right? But I think that there's always this, for me anyway, there was always this thing of like, I don't want to be handed anything. But you got chops, man. Yeah, no, I feel confident about that now. But I just never had a budget or like the opportunity to do that until Reservation Dogs. Really? Yeah.

I was making my films on a budget. No one was getting paid. I was doing it in Oklahoma. And that was because I came into LA and people were like, you know, native films on a budget. No one was getting paid. I was doing it in Oklahoma. And that was because I came into L.A. and people were like, you know, native films don't sell. We're not going to fund it. So I went back to Oklahoma and just made them for micro budgets. But it's interesting because they are fundamentally, I mean,

they're narrative films and they have stories, but they're art films to a degree. I mean, Miko really arguably is sort of an art film. For sure. Which means that you have the poetic freedom to sort of move through whatever you need to move through and not have a clear resolve at the end. Yeah, for sure.

I mean, my late girlfriend did that. She made films that were from her heart and didn't land, they didn't have to sort of seal up, have a happy ending or whatever. But it just seems to me that there is a place for those movies. There's just so many of them, some of them very bad, and it's hard to get them seen. Yeah, it's hard to get them seen.

And how do you pitch that? You know, like, you know, it's going to be a little vague. A little vague, and it's a sad ending. Yeah, exactly. But, like, you know, like, the type of storytelling that I, you know, I love, like, Southern like, you know, like the type of storytelling that I, you know, I'm a, I love like Southern Gothic, you know, like that's what really gets me going is that type of storytelling. And I think it's just similar to the storytelling I grew up with, you know, negative storytelling

or my white family too. Sure. It's just that slow paced. What's the white family? My, my grandma, I'm half Italianian and german yeah and and seminole and creek my grandpa was italian there was this program called uh the relocation act back in the day where they would send natives out of their community to go work in cities that's why there's the la big la urban community yeah chicago had a big one my grandma and all the natives yeah my

grandma and all of her brothers got sent to chic Yeah And it was kind of pitched as it's like you're gonna learn how to make money and do do a trade But really it was like take them out of their community. So they can build skyscrapers. They'll assimilate into Oh the white world That was the idea to fracture that community. It was it was that's what it was about and my grandma then went to Chicago and Luckily, they all went back home, but my grandma met this Italian man in Chicago. So that was an insidious intent was to breed them out of existence. It was an attempt to, I think that there's, there was a, I think it was an attempt to just fracture the native sort of social of the community, the communities, you know, and, and assimilate them into the white world and kind of another way of like curing the indian

problem i mean that happened with boarding school as it happened with the dawes act in oklahoma where you know and in different areas where like we we had we didn't have individual land yeah and then they broke it up into 182 acres or whatever and each individual tribal member got it and that sounds brilliant you know but like really it was to fracture that community aspect and that and that social sort of construct of those societies you know right so your grandma got an italian guy she got an italian guy and brought him home but didn't one of your grandparents was married to a white woman as well the one who's in the uh this may be the last exactly so that's my that's, that's my grandma, Jesse. Yeah. And she grew up in a town, Seminole Indians,

mainly in that town called Sasakwa, Oklahoma. Yeah. And she met, um, and she, you know, met this local native kid and they fell in love.

And yeah, man, I mean, just that story is crazy. Yeah, man. I mean, Southern Gothic for sure.

I mean that my grandma, my white grandma, she was one of the best storytellers I ever knew. She's gone now? She's gone. Yeah. But amazing. And I'm so glad that I captured that story because that was just one of so many that she would tell me.

Well, it's an interesting story about the whole arc of the story about your grandfather's accident and the body being gone. Yeah. And then the hat. Yeah. The hat. Because I didn't know where that was going because i when i because it's really about the music yeah of of natives these hymns yeah that uh you know you it happens with with jews and anybody who has a language and has a tradition yeah that eventually the young people are going to be like i'm gonna give a fuck yeah it's a problem, you know, because then the whole history is lost. It is, yeah.

So you're sort of tracking the sort of the history of these hymns, how the Christian hymns through Scotland and through missionaries kind of integrated with the Indian language and the Indian rhythms. But then there's this whole other story about your grandfather disappearing. Yeah. But I really like the guy. You used him in Miko, too, as an actor. What's his name?

Woodko Long. How'd you know that guy? I met him the day I interviewed him for this, maybe the last time. He was mowing. He was mowing at this church grounds. And I went and I sat down with him. I knew him as a singer.

Because I'd seen him at a, I think he'd been an extra in Barking Water, another film of mine. And so I didn't know him though, but he sat down and did this interview and just like bared his soul. And also can sing. He's very touching. And also can sing, you know, like nobody's business. Well, that whole history of the importance of the song came through him and his experience and

his his shame yeah for sure uh well you hear people say that a lot like i did things there that i'm not proud of but like you feel it when he says that you know you hear him in movies say that a lot like when i was a nom this is bad but like yeah you feel it man yeah for with him yeah yeah you feel it hard when he chose to come back to those well i never knew but that's another thing like you know with those with that movie, I learned all about those Indian churches. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Like, there's a whole world of Indian churches in Oklahoma and these traditions that are sort of going by the wayside.

And then your grandmother's there. And then the idea of your grandfather who turned on the church and became a bass player. You know, it's all there, man. Yeah, man. player you know it's all there man yeah man i mean like you know it was like for me uh for me it's always been about subverting this narrative that has been put upon us as indigenous people you know it's like you know it's not the coolest thing in the world to walk in a room and say uh you know i can sing a native song but it's a christian song you know like but for me it was important because like people don't know that story man i want them to know that you know how to sing those songs?

I do, yeah. Melodies are hard, dude. Yeah, man. They're hard and they're deep. I mean, you grow up with them. Where I'm from, that's the funeral songs. It's what elders sang and it's what you hear when someone passes away. There's just like, I don't know, man.

There's poetry in that. Sure. Well, it's like a friend of mine once said that whether you believe in God or not, Sure. Well, it's like a friend of mine once said that whether you believe in God or not, the act of prayer, those grooves have been dug for so long that you're tapping into something. You're tapping. I mean, it's like a concert, man. But you're going all the way back to the beginning of the time of your people. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's there. It's in the DNA. Yes.

Yeah, it is, man. I believe that. And if I sing those songs or if I hear those songs, like, it just takes me there. But it also takes me to a past that I didn't know about, you know, because a lot of those songs were composed on the Trail of Tears and, like, you know. Used. Yeah, used on the Trail of Tears for sure, you know. And I don't know, man. It connects me at least to something that's bigger than me. that's bigger than me. Well, that's the, I guess the profound thing for me as a white dude,

you know, in watching your stuff and then watching, like I was saying, the Underground Railroad thing is like, you know, on one side you have this

indentured, you know, brutal slavery, you know, and servitude. And then on the other side you have genocide. Like these are the,

these are foundational realities of two of the you know primary populations of our country yeah you know and then this manifest destiny bullshit is like this is the problem we're up against now is that it's not just simple racism it's people that believe in manifest destiny still yeah exactly you know like that's the only way they can justify it it's like it's not about democracy or brown people it's just that we are entitled to this because this was the vision of this country yeah so that's what we're up yeah man i mean you know i think about like some of the towns in oklahoma and a lot of good people you know a lot of really good

people but they've been fed this bullshit where it's like everything outside of their experience is bad You know it's like the gays you know the Mexicans are taking our job You know what it be and it feeds itself, and it becomes this like yeah machine of hate Yeah, and and bigotry you know and like you go talk to him and say their dinner table. They're good people Yeah, it's like it's it's the difference between the lives they live and what they put in their head you know there's it's like very different now yeah but like but they but sadly yeah the mexicans are taking our jobs but i imagine that most of the time when they look at natives they're like no they're done yeah exactly or like or or it's the thing of like oh the casinos and you know they get a thousand dollars a month oh that's right

they're doing all right yeah exactly you know it's like man i don't get any money,000 a month. Oh, that's right. They're doing all right. Yeah, exactly. It's like, man, I don't get any money for being a native. It's like we found a way to kind of take care of our own. Well, what was this? Did you start really kind of like finding your voice a little more when you were in that sketch group? I don't know about that. How did that happen? When you got back from hollywood yeah so we we i mean it was part of the same thing that i feel like i've always done which is native humor is specific you know i feel like

it's similar to jewish humor it's similar to it is but no one knows about no one knows about it man it's great yeah like there's like you watch that the reservation dog thing it's like it's a whole different timing yeah man it's different right yeah but it's like it you watch that, the reservation dog thing. It's like, it's a whole different timing. Yeah, man. It's different, right? Yeah. But it's like. It's about absence of jokes. Sometimes it's about silences. And if there's a rhythm to it.

Yeah. To the way that, you know, a couple of those kids are hilarious. Yeah, for sure. And that one woman, that one girl. Willie Jack. She played Paulina. She plays, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

It's a tough one. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck you. Yeah. She's got such great timing and improv and then the the farmer what's his name uh Gary Gary he shows up and he was like he was so great you know I he was so memorable in power oh yeah man like but he's got this and dead man you

know oh and dead man is great yeah yeah but he's got that weird funny uh indian timing he is he is native humor that guy yeah i mean that he he you can't he's defined it yeah you know yeah he's it's all through him and just being able to bring those legends back the legends for us you know like i i grew up dead man was like holy shit you know powell highway was like holy shit you know and to be able to bring that them back and to let them be funny like West duties in To bring Wes in who has to play like a Pawnee Scout that scalping motherfuckers left right just to bring him back How about they play uncle you know just to be funny? Oh, yeah Dallas. Yeah, that guy's hilarious So he was a part of the comedy group so like oh, yeah, so we started a comedy group called the 1491 It was me Dallas gold tooth Miggins comedy group. Yeah, so we started a comedy group called the 1491s. It was me, Dallas Goldtooth, Migazy Pinsonow, Bobby Wilson, and Ryan Redcorn.

And we started this group, and it was just because no one had knew or there was nowhere to go for Native humor. Where did you start it? We came together. I was showing a film in Minneapolis, and a lot of those guys were up there. And we were like, let's just shoot a funny video. And we put it online, and it was kind of like, like it got there was a lot of views you know and it like kind of blew up overnight and it wasn't like the world didn't know about it but indian country knew about it what was it what it was made it so popular with the indians well it was because it was i think a place for

them to finally see native humor being displayed for the first time so you're self-mocking yeah in a way well part of the good thing that we did i think was it's called uh the new moon wolf pack auditions and you know twilight new moon the natives were werewolves right and so we did a video of the audition process for that and um you know i think most people would try to do a comedy where they're making fun of white people right which is just low-hanging fruit we made fun of ourselves and how we similar to dallas's character reservation dogsanging fruit we made fun of ourselves and how we similar to dallas's character reservation dogs where we're making fun of this like native machismo you know that's like we're tough you know like right we're brave warriors you know and like

right and we were making fun of that idea yeah and also people selling out their culture you know because so you were making fun of the white person's image of the indian that indians had to not abide by but accept because he grew up with and to feed and to feed into you know because they're like fuck one time my dad and i we got asked to um we got asked to audition for a part i think it was like i don't fuck it was some native movie and there was these auditions and my mom convinced us to go my dad's got curly hair you know like does not look like your classic native you know neither do i and so we show up where i remember we're both in hawaiian shirts yeah i think i had a perm you

know my mom had done some shit to my hair and so we go and we're sitting in the lobby and this is kind of where that video was based off but we're sitting in the lobby and we're just looking at each other like man we don't belong here there was a native guy that just fucking classic wore your hair down to his ass yeah and he had a choker on and these beads you know like a loincloth yeah and he had his shirt off and he was rubbing himself down with baby oil and doing push-ups yeah yeah i've been to a lot of these man you know it was just like the extent in which you will go to to be cast and like so to sell yourself out to sell yourself out and your people and not giving yeah. And not giving a fuck.

And like, you know how many white people are going to see this? And they're just going to feed into that. We're going to have to act like that the rest of our lives or we're not going to make any money ourselves. Right, right. So I think like Dallas's character in Reservation Dogs was, it's that. It's like, if I were to ask 90% of the people in the world, like, give me the first thing that you think of when I say Native native american it would be that image yeah it would be that guy what he looks like what he looks like it would be that not him not him yeah exactly like uh but i think that that but i think that that character kind of allows a non-native audience to come in and go all right we're

gonna make fun of what you think we are yeah as we show you all these other images we're gonna make fun of what you think we are but you're going to laugh with us we're going to allow you to laugh with that's true i mean you very carefully the point of view is specifically native yeah you're not giving anything up right right like you know yeah that's what white people are going to see like we're making fun of ourselves exactly by showing you that this isn't really who we are but then you're also showing who you are yeah and then also in that same character we're showing saying but we were like this at one point sure you know sure like we were like this at one point but isn't it ridiculous that you think we're still like that like that is the image you know so

let's laugh at it together well yeah but you did that comedically with reservation dogs but in miko with that that's sort of like uh the kind of the misunderstanding of the warrior type that actor who plays the cop in Reservation Dogs. What's that guy's name? Zahn McLernan. Zahn McLernan. He was great in Miko because like this is a guy saying like, I'm a warrior. So that was a different understanding of, it's a different deconstruction of the myth. And it's like mental illness.

Like what happens when that idea, that myth enters someone's brain that isn't all there and it's on drugs and smoking meth. But native. But native. It's not like a white guy's the enemy. We are also, can be our own enemies. That fucking movie's heavy, dude.

Thank you, man. Yeah, I was very proud of that. And it was like, I wanted to show Tulsa. You know, Tulsa's an interesting place and I wanted to show it, you know, for what I see it as, you know, and like, Oh dude, when he like, you know, after he takes care of that business and then goes into the water, I'm like, wow, this is some serious Indian shit. Definitely. That's great. Yeah, man. I mean, you're not going to see this in every movie. That's right

the guy just walks away from it like yeah yeah job done how many of those guys were real actors in that there was about um you know the leads were well you know you mentioned what go long it was in my documentary i was trying to cast that part and i was like man i need someone like what, man, I need someone like what go, you know, I need somebody like what go. And so then I was like, why don't you fucking ask what go?

So I called them. I was like, what go, would you want to be an actor in my movies? Oh yeah. I like to do that. And he's like, he just did it. Showed up actually.

It seemed like later got cast in our play, which is called between two knees. My comedy group. We did. We were commissioned to play. That's going to be at Yale this year, but was that the 1491? Yeah, it was. You guys are guys are still an entity we are but we're all making tv now and they're all writers on my show and everything but we have a play that came out before the pandemic

that was commissioned by the oregon shakespeare festival okay and it's called between two knees and woodco was one of the leads in that you know his life totally changed just from one interview that I did. And it's a comedy? Yeah, it's a musical comedy. So the life arc of the 1491s where you did that video and then where does it go from there? You know, it led into other videos. We were like, man, people really like this. Let's keep doing it. And you tour as a sketch group? And then we started touring because we-

With the videos. Yeah, because people really loved it. And we would get invited to all these reservations in different native communities. And we were like, well, we need to develop a live show. So we started, I reluctantly did, but we started developing a live show. So it was sketches? Sketches. And then film.

Yeah. And we would show videos. And, you know, like as a comedian, you know, I've heard you talk about this, but it's like there's nothing like bombing you know like yeah oh my god like we would do every now and then we'd show up and it'd be an all white audience and we were not ready for that shit you know like we just had the indians where they're looking at you like uh like oh look they brought in some natives exactly but they weren't ready because like one of the hardest was one time there was an art it was a group of it was a conference of art

curate native art curators and native art curators They don't like native shit is no laughing matter to them. You know like they They hold us in in earnest museum curators Yeah So and so they deal with native art and we tried to make them laugh and none of them were native But like none of them were native no no no no it was like Europeans and and you know mostly white folks And um we bombed hard they did not they were like snickering like they didn't want to laugh None of them were native. No, no, no. It was like Europeans and, you know, mostly white folks. And we bombed hard.

They were like snickering. Like they didn't want to laugh. And what we realized though, and we had a couple of other shows like that, like a college like in West Virginia. And what we realized is, you know, white people need permission to laugh at us and with us. Yeah, because they don't want to be called out. Exactly. So you kind of have to build in the permission a little bit yeah with them you know invite them in a little bit yeah yeah well i mean that's interesting that the because even like a curator of native art

i have to assume rarely has any sense of native life and i and i think that you know what what becomes revealed with white people in general is like we don't fucking know yeah we don't know and these people are dealing with the art and they don't fucking know they don't know they don't know anything i mean and i i grew up in new mexico around you know galleries where you know you've got the the white woman with all the turquoise yeah you know and everything and she's got you know she's showing the painting she owns the gallery and their sense that sense of the indian is different than you know ironized cody or whatever the hell's going on in movies but it is equally totally as as um uh uh limited it's like just so

you know this was made by a real native american you know it's like all right yeah why don't we just let them set their booth up and sell their shit? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, but also then there's a market to feed and then your art changes because of it, you know? And,

and, and, and that's dark, you know? Yeah. What do you mean? I mean like, you know,

like one of the concepts I think of like, you know, looking at love and fury where there are a lot of those artists are making art to make money. Well, that's what, money well that's what like that's what like it made me it humbled me dude because you get older you get jaded and you know i grew up around those people and you know there's something about you know college or just post college about you know how people are doing experimental art or you know performance art and all this stuff and as you get more into show business you get more cynical and you're like no that's what they fucking what are the things going to

happen there but the truth is what is happening on a smaller scale is enforcing the community it's it's freeing an individual with you know with this creativity it is touching people but you get sort of cynical because it's sort of like but how many really and it's like how many does it need yeah you know it'd be nice if they could make a're sort of like, but how many really? And it's like, how many does it need? You know, it'd be nice if they could make a living or get a grant. But so many people. But what were you going to say? No, but there's freedom, though, in that.

Right. There's freedom in that. And when you're not worried about making money because you know you're not going to make money. Yeah. There's freedom in that to just say, what do I want to say? Right. You know, and like, I think that like that's what we lose in this sort of Internet modern society, which is like, we forget that people also just want to say stuff and that's good. And, and, and, and a lot of artists, that's why they do their work, you know? And I think that it's easy to forget that.

And it's not easy to forget it when you have, uh, people that, you know, money isn't on the table. Yeah. We're just making art, you know? Yeah. And we're saying something because we come from communities that were displaced we come from communities that were fractured and we live in a country that that the the founders of that country quote unquote you know tried to fracture our communities and so it's like what do you want to say like you're

not gonna get rich off this shit but you can say something yeah and you can inspire younger kids yeah no because like we're all native kids growing up in our little communities and and i i didn't you know like i was talking to the jokingly earlier about the the seminal wars film you know it's like i grew up with movies where my people were being attacked and and and and were the enemies you know like we were the bad guys in every fucking film yeah and that does something to you you know as a child it does something yeah um it's not like it didn't fuck me up but it definitely i have an altered sense of i think that another kid would have that doesn't have the experience like i grew up with my people as the enemy in the films you know you were how you were represented it's sort but see like that's similar

a similar sort of a struggle as as a black representation in film and women representation for sure yeah you know one of the things that um i get a lot of questions on with reservation dogs and because there were we have native women writers and and uh all of that it's like it's like people like wow you know you have a lot of women on your team it's like why fuck wouldn't i yeah like our communities are made up of women and men and and if we're telling a story right like why would we not hire women to write on on the uh you know and like and you start realizing like there's gatekeepers and there's weird shit in this industry but i didn't come up in this industry you know i was independent

filmmaker and for me it's important to it's not like i'm box checking yeah but there are voices that need to be a part of this yeah i i mean i made the you know a show of my own and i was i was i was bad in the sense that like i had a limited budget i only had a few slots for writers and i didn't mix it up and you know i feel i feel somewhat guilty about it because i think it could have been a better show yeah but i just did what you know you do and i didn't sort of make a stand and there wasn't enough slots in my mind but i think in retrospect it probably would have been better yeah yeah why wouldn't it be yeah i don't know why you know you got to learn how to you know out fuck your you know unfuck your brain yeah i mean i

do anyways you know to realize certain things but that's part of the learning curve no it is and and you know i think that um you know we're all we're all learning that right now but i think also like in for me being my age you know 57 and then having this you know relatively human and cathartic experience you know engaging with your work you know it's like i don't feel bad that i didn't know these things i feel good that i was open to it yeah and that some for some reason it was exposed to me i don't wouldn't have seen it if you weren't coming on the show you know and i think that i believe cliff mentioned you because i was like, I need to get some native comics. Yeah.

You know, and there's a couple of guys I kind of know of their work. Yeah. But I don't, you know, I don't know when you seem to encapsulate something bigger because of the sketch thing. Yeah.

But there are native stand-ups. I knew Charlie. Charlie, I was going to mention that. Charlie Hill, yeah. Yeah, man, I was going to mention that because I met him once. And, you know, thinking of, like, what I've done in my career and what I've thrived to do,

I think about him standing out there alone back in the day telling these jokes, man. And, you know, if there would have been 50 other native comedians, maybe he would have done different jokes. But he was doing the jokes that had to be done at that time yeah to break us all in to this world and to break white audiences into our humor you know and i think that i i think that he doesn't get enough credit sometimes for what he did standing up there by himself doing i don't think that a lot enough people know about him because there was like he was also doing it in the way that he could at that time you know standing up against that stereotype yeah and talking real shit in his jokes like it was it was real native point of view stuff and he had to acknowledge that stereotype yeah and talking real shit in his jokes like it was it was

real native point of view stuff and he had to acknowledge that stereotype in that comedy you know whereas like i have the freedom now yeah to not always acknowledge it and talk about it and like i can just tell a story about kids that are stealing a chip truck to to the stooges i want to be your dog you know and like and like but he he didn't have that luxury he he had to address those stereotypes because that's all he was facing. That's right. Well, it was, you know, he had to transcend the gimmick that he was stuck in.

Yeah, man. Right? It's crazy. You know, I remember when I was a doorman at the comedy store when I was starting out, he was around and we'd get high, you know, and I talked to him a little bit. But again, I didn't have the context

to really sort of like, you know, do what you would have done knowing him or what Cliff, how he framed him. You know, for me, it was like, it was another like you know do what you would have done knowing him or what cliff how he framed him you know for me it was like there's another you know comic yeah yeah exactly he's the indian guy probably got some issues sure yeah working through it but he was a myth you know he was a legend by that time you know but he had had his day what was he i mean you know he was at the store a lot right that was kind of his base like yeah yeah but you know he was before my time i mean like it seems like you know his heyday was probably in the late 70s man i look at that video of him i think it was on the richard pryor yeah i look at that video of him

yeah going up there i think he's a ribbon shirt on which is like very common in our community i just think of and i just think of that like man like walking out on that stage and facing all that history had to offer for your people and and having to turn that into a joke that that that the people that the non-native people that don't understand your world to turn that into something very digestible to them and to do it with confidence that he did. That's fucking hard, man. And I didn't get that when I was young, when I first heard him, when I first heard him, it was like, yeah, those are just Indian jokes, you know, like, but like, as I as I realized what he faced. Yeah. It's like, holy shit, man. And I didn't get that when I was young, when I first heard him, when I first heard him, it was like, yeah, those are just Indian jokes, you know? But like, as I, as I realized what he faced, it's like, holy shit, man, that's hard to do. And after I did my own live shows and stuff and bombed my, you know, fell on my face. How many times you fall on your face? Was it only for white people? There was a few times. For white people? No, no, no, no. Anyone. I mean,

Indians, you can bomb from any of them i mean some of my you know we we've definitely bombed one time we had a show in tulsa and uh we just had one of the best shows of our lives a few months before in tulsa and then we had another show but we didn't realize that it was a you know comedy in an outdoor lawn yeah isn't great oh no you lose all the sound yeah man you lose the sound so i'm the worst you just watch it go away because you can't hear it and you just see people sitting there eating yeah and like most of them are sitting in the very back you know and we didn't realize it was like conservative sunday it was like a reggae show day and so it was like a bunch of people that didn't want to hear us yeah and one man was trying to storm the stage because one of the guys had said he said abortion and he

was i don't fucking take care of it. You know, he was like Christian man and yelling. A friend of mine tried to, had to like stop him and she had just played a music set and you know, we didn't know what to do. We were bombing. And so I got the guitar and I sang Jambalaya. Yeah. You did?

How'd that go? We just did it over and over on repeat just to piss him off. It was beautiful. You know, it was like I took took back we took back that like power not only was bombing we're gonna dig in exactly we totally dug it and then we had to leave and then there were i think the police were called at some point you gotta make it punk rock yeah if you don't want to take the hit if you don't want to you know kind of leave with your tail between your legs that's right punk rock it that's right well that's interesting what you say about charlie because it's it it is it is the shoes you walk in yeah that even if it's with

you or without that the the condition is only slightly different yeah it is the native condition of how you confront culture uh predominantly white entertainment culture is is similar i mean you know obviously most people don't see that stereotype anymore and i think most people if you grow up in a certain place have experience with native people to some degree but it's still you know you've got to you know own yourself for yourself and for your people in front of this you know white blob you know it's the same journey no it is journey and it's a similar journey i think that because of charlie hill because of joy harjo because of uh you know uh all of the people and entertainers gary farmer everybody that john trudell i mean all the people that came before me

you know it's kind of like standing on their shoulders yeah and it's and it's it's it's helped me face it and and and move through it and all the work that they did helped my work become possible i mean like look i was a broke independent filmmaker all the way up until reservation docs you know like like i wasn't making money on these independent films but i was but i love herzog and i love i love all of these filmmakers that that like inspired me and i wanted to tell those stories and so i found ways to do it i didn't make money but um but now i found myself in a situation where i have a good friend named taika waititi who became a sort of star and like made thor and all this stuff and and became very recognizable and made jojo rabbit and you know what's that other one I just saw?

The one with Sam Neill in it. Oh, Hunt for the Wilder People. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's so good, man. It's so good. And so, you know, I find myself, you know, sitting with him, or I'm visiting him because I started working in TV a little bit. I'm visiting with him.

And we had a couple tequilas. Yeah. And he said, you know, I have a deal at FX. If you ever come up with anything, like, let me know. And he's my friend. I never treated, I never asked for it. He was like, you're my buddy, you know? And that's all that we left it at.

But he said that and I was like, well, let's do it. And we literally just came up with it that night. Yeah. Um, we, we left, I wrote stuff down. I went home a couple of days later. I sent him a little outline of just the idea. He loved it. He gave it to the producer, Garrett Bosch, who had been producing What We Do in the Shadows

TV show. Yeah. And he made a call to an exec and said, you have to buy this. Like, this is nothing like it. Yeah. And they were like, sold. Yeah. And my agents called me and they're like, what the fuck is Reservation Dogs?

I was like, oh, it's a show. I thought I'd hear from Tyga a year later about it. Yeah. Yeah it yeah and all of a sudden we're in a pandemic making a pilot you know and a whole show in a pandemic how'd you cast those kids are they all native kids they're all native kids they um you know we it's funny because people ask me like like people say like there's no way to cast like how did you find them or like you know a lot of people say you can't find it. It's like, dude, like just no one's,

there's only a Western made out here every four years or 10. Yeah. So no, there's not a lot of native actors here beating down the door to play a dead person in front of a teepee, you know, like, and, and,

and so you got to go to those communities. And that's what we did. We had a great casting director named Angelique Midthunder and she she we went out and we just went to all these native communities and open auditions man and these kids came in and killed you know i mean like there's so many good actors that came in yeah so many that weren't cast you know and the kids that there's a whole group of them that almost got cast as the four leads yeah and all these kids are from oklahoma the ones that were about to be cat or got close to being cast yeah yeah and all these kids are from oklahoma the ones that were about to be cat or got close to being cast yeah well they all became the bad guy gang you know so it

was like yeah yeah all these kids that have never acted before in their lives you know okay doing real good yeah man good yeah yeah it's very exciting buddy thank you man um quick question uh uh when someone says uh off reservation is that slang that's offensive? I don't. I just. I don't get offended. Yeah. I'm sure there are people that will. It's like, let's have a powwow, you know?

Like, my agents have said that to me. Like, we can have a powwow. That seems a little more offensive. Yeah, it is. But I don't get offended. I just make fun of people. You know, but I just, because I say that, I don't even know that I connected it to Indian life. Well, yeah.

And then someone wrote me and said, that's very offensive to Indians. I'm like, is it? So I guess, I haven't talked to many. So I thought I'd throw it at you. I mean, how often am I going to have an Indian in my garage? Yeah, I'll tell you. I mean, if you think of a powwow,

a powwow was started because our ceremonies became illegal. And through genocide, they became illegal and we had to do something and so we started powwows because they were a safer way to do stuff and they became an intertribal way of us to gather and dance and to try to hang on to our culture right there's a lot of shit it's heavy into that yeah so when a white guy goes you want to have a power exactly so when you're in hollywood in the meeting he's like let's go have a little powwow about this real quick it's just just like, come on, man. It's all fucking.

You don't have the right to use that language around me. Don't say that word. Oh, the other thing is, like, tell me again about. So you're having a hard time figuring out where to premiere this. And they were going to do it at Hollywood Forever at the cemetery. cemetery like if people don't know hollywood forever is this is this event it's a cemetery with a lot of famous actors it's a famous cemetery but they do they do movies there right so so because we can't do it inside is that the thing they wanted to find a place to screen exactly the premiere of of reservation dogs yeah and you just i have a meeting so i have a meeting

and you know and uh fx is amazing they meeting, so I have a meeting. And, you know, FX is amazing. They've been so good to work with and creatively, like, free. Yeah. Like, let's do everything. But we have a meeting

and with marketing, they're like, yeah, we're thinking about doing the premiere here at this, it's a really great, it's a cemetery. I was like, oh, shit.

I was like, look, man, none of the Indians are going to show up. Ain't nobody showing up including myself to the cemetery to have any just like i was like we're gonna have to find some place that's like yeah i'm we're glad we asked you like man they got navajo filmmakers on this thing they're not going to show up man they won't even stand across the street from this place you know oh too much yeah i hope everything goes good i love the show and i really uh i had

i had a great time looking at your stuff and i'm gonna finish watching the other movies awesome thank you thank you berlin harjo great guy uh reservation dogs uh which he co-created with Taika Waititi, has new episodes every Monday. All right. Here's a blues riff I came up with. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey. Mafonda. Cat angels everywhere.

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