WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1256 - Kimmy Gatewood

Episode Date: August 26, 2021

Ever since Marc and Kimmy Gatewood said goodbye to each other and their fellow castmates on the set of GLOW, the world has been in a constant state of flux. Marc and Kimmy spend some time catching up and dive into the details of Kimmy's experience directing her first feature film, Good On Paper. They also talk about Kimmy's improv history, her studies of Samuel Beckett, her partnership with Rebekka Johnson, and their early days of podcasting as The Apple Sisters. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! store and a cast creative all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast how's everybody doing okay i'm a little sweaty i'm a little uh i don't know man charlie watts is dead

but it's weird i uh i love charlie i love the rolling stones i listen to the rolling stones probably every week at least once a week on not in passing, not as part of a playlist. I will listen to Rolling Stones records all the way through. I listened to Get Your Yaya's Out over and over again a few months ago when I was hiking. I've been listening to Blue and Lonesome a lot. For some reason, I do listen to that Get Your Yaya's Out because that is where I really first understood the power of Charlie. Oddly, it's on that live record. And oddly, it was on a reissue of that live record. There was a slight remix done.

I don't even know if the Stones like those reissues, but I think the Abco reissues. And I remember I got it a few years back. And I used to listen to that album all the time. Get Your Yeah Yeahs Out. Yeah, because it's got, it's a great live album. It's one of the best live albums. Because during those breaks, during Midnight Rambler, you heard about the Boston.

Whack! And if you turn it up right there you'll hear some guy go god damn and a woman go just scream and they do it through all the breaks god damn but I think

what really struck me on the remix was just how fucking tight that rhythm section was just how fucking tight that rhythm section was just how fucking tight bill and charlie were and realizing that without that everything is a fucking disaster like keith as great as he is famously uh one of the great rhythm guitar players and i started thinking about that. Look, man, I love Keith. I love Keith. I love them all.

All right. I miss Bill. I wasn't going to go see the Stones a few years ago with Dino because I just didn't feel right seeing him without Bill. But Dean talked me into it. It was great. Daryl's great. But the thing about the rhythm section

and hearing Keith talk about Charlie, and their sort of unspoken kind of understanding each other performatively, is that Keith without Charlie and Bill would just be chaos. like fragmented and stilted that keith richards his entire sense of rhythm that evolved over time is only because of charlie watts and finding those holes and finding that place to float on charlie's jam and charlie fucking had to follow keith and you don't even notice that and that's got to be a chore at different points in time. So without Charlie, you got nothing. You get no stones. I mean, look, you know, obviously, if they decide to tour and Steve Jordan goes out with him, I mean, he's a great drummer. But I mean, throughout the whole thing, that there's no really.

Charlie is one of the most solid beats, keepers of time there is. And he can swing and stay on top of it at the same time. It's crazy how good he was. But if you really want to listen to the subtlety and the genius of that rhythm section, of Charlie and Bill specifically, give a listen to that Get Your Yeah Yeahs Out. And listen close because they're holding it together. Charlie's holding the whole fucking thing together. How do you think Ronnie and Keith can do all that messy fucking slop that they do without Charlie kind of like just being the bedrock? You know what I mean?

Charlie was great. And just a real suave motherfucker too great drummer great rolling stone one out of five gone hmm great great charmer god i'm gonna miss him i mean i still got him i still got all those fucking records. I got all those records. Charlie never leaves. And he lived a good life. And he lived a long life. Especially for a rock dude.

Yeah. Rest in peace, Charlie Watts. Godspeed. Swing it. I forgot to tell you who's on the show Because I wanted to honor Charlie Today I'm going to talk to Kimmy Gatewood She is one of my co-stars

Or was one of my co-stars on Glow She played one half of the Stacey and Dawn duo With her real life comedy partner Rebecca Johnson And actually Kimmy and Rebecca were, honestly, very early comedy podcast adopters when they turned their Apple Sisters act, which was their bit, into one of the early scripted comedy podcasts.

Kimmy's been directing a lot of television lately, and she just directed her first feature film, the Eliza Schlesinger movie, Good on Paper, which is now on Netflix. And it was good to see her, to reminisce, to reminisce. We reminisced. Before I forget, on my tour, I've added some shows. First of all, Helium in St. Louis, September 16th, 17th, and 18th. You can get tickets for that. The Neptune in Seattle, September 22nd is available. I might add a second show if that sells out.

The Aladdin Theater in Portland is sold out, but I've added another show. That's on September 24th. I just want to give you a heads up. The Dynasty Typewriter Show, October 4th. I'm not sure if there's tickets for that. There might new york comedy festival is now on sale for everyone that's november 13th the town hall get tickets for that okay that's the update on that good deal um so i've been festering about this thing on my finger primarily because here's the deal you know i've become somewhat resilient to trolling but you know i am not that resilient to suggestions about certain things that are

actually worse for me than trolling like i was on my instagram on instagram live and i've got this thing i'm under my fingernail on my index finger. And someone on the Instagram live said, you should get that check for melanoma. So that was actually some of the finest trolling that I've ever been victim to. Because it's not finding my weakness around insecurity or jealousy or any of that shit. And it's not really those kind of plain triggers

of people with entertainers egos uh that you can get all worked up it was something more refined than that and i don't think it was the intention of the person that said it to troll me but it just i was like looked at my finger and i'm like what is that i mean yeah it looked like i banged my finger but i wasn't sure if i banged my finger because i didn't remember banging my finger. So I started to look at it. And then I, of course, Googled just a touch, just a tad fingernail melanoma, melanoma under nail. Didn't quite look like what I got, but, you know, enough for me to start festering.

And then for me to start thinking about melanoma and about how long would it take? Did it spread? What is going on? How do you get it out of there? That was my biggest thing. So I started festering about how, if they have to get, even if it wasn't melanoma, what do you get? How do you got to get something out from under a finger? So because of my ability to spiral, especially with hypochondriacal panic, you know, I started to think like, well, I mean, if it hasn't spread, which it probably has,

so I'm probably got cancer, which means like I got to start that fight and I was just starting to enjoy my life. So that's probably going to happen. And do I really want to die that way? So I might want to start thinking, you know, sort of kind of frankly and honestly about, you know,

ending my own life because I really don't want to just rot away of cancer by myself. I got to get my affairs in order and what, okay, let's say it hasn't spread. So then do I just lose the finger? Do I lose the tip of the finger? Am I going to be incapacitated right when I started enjoying playing guitar and playing out and doing this stuff is now when I have to adjust to playing with partial finger with just part of my index finger on my fret hand do I have to make that adjustment would I make that adjustment I'm not a professional musician why would I make the commitment of trying to play with three and a half fingers

no one's going to give a shit about that miracle I'm pretty limited player and I'll just be the same limited player only with a half a finger on my index finger and maybe I'll get away with it I don't know and what is that going to look good cosmetically? Are they going to be able, am I going to have some weird kind of tiny night nails sticking out of the top? Am I going to be ashamed of my hand? Oh my God. So when am I going to the doctor? So I started to spin out and then, uh, you know, on the plane, I started pulling my cuticle back on the bottom so I could see how deep down the melanoma went and just, you know, how much damage you're going to have to do to the finger if they have to sort of cut off the top or scoop it out. And then I, you know, I kind of like I fucked up my cuticle looking at that. And then I just went into full on panic.

And I was like, well, I don't even know the doctor I'm going to really on Wednesday. Are they going to give a shit about me? You know, they're part of my plan. I've been there before, but I'm starting to think that some doctors, they just kind of blow through shit and they just kind of like, you're not, you know, they care to a certain degree. But I guess some of the lessons I learned when Lynn passed away is that these doctors can be pretty passive. They have nothing invested in you. If you don't have a relationship with them, you're just, you know, something that happens. You're just part of their day. Something that happens. They do their job. If you die, they don't know you if you don't have a relationship with them. So then I start freaking about the doctor I got

to see. And I'm telling Dean this and he's like, I got a guy, I got a dermatologist. So I went to Dean's guy, who's kind of a whiz, knows his shit. And he looked at my finger and he said, oh yeah, that's not melanoma. I'm 99.9% sure that's not melanoma. It looks like you banged it or something. Let's get the microscope out. So we got it under the microscope. He's like, yeah. I mean, how long has it been there? I'm like, a few weeks. He's like, if you would have told me that's been there for a year, maybe I'd be concerned. If that was a melanoma that size, it would have had to have been there about a year. And it looks like you banged it, you bruised it. But why is the cuticle all inflamed? I'm like, oh, because I was pulling it down with my other fingers so I could see how deep the melanoma was. He's like, oh, well, I'm going to have to give you a prescription for

some cream for that so it doesn't get infected. So in my panic, I might have injured myself. So what's new? What's new? Poking and prodding. Poking and prodding. But I also had some other realizations about mortality. my friend Dean, my friend Sam, my friend Kit for talking me through somewhat of a spiral that, you know, that I'm going to get something. If I don't die quickly, I'm probably going to die

something. And I'm 57 years old and I got to sort of grow up around that. I certainly have a handle on the idea of mortality. I've certainly seen death up close now. But something's going to happen. And how you handle that is going to speak to who you are, your sense of character. And one of the things I realized when I was panicking and dragging other people into my panic around my non-melanoma under my nail, and what that was implying to me in my head, and how it triggered my fear, was that I know people with real sickness. I know people living with real sickness.

And they live with real sickness. And they do what they have to do to manage that sickness. And that's part of life. And for me to spin out as if anyone's going to make me feel better. I mean, when the shit really comes down, it's going to come down. This wasn't that time. And not panicking is probably the better way to do it. And I thought I'd sort of had a handle on that. Like I've been more of a hypochondriac in my life, but I just usually I think like, well, I'll wait a few days and see what happens. And that's usually what I do.

But the nature of these type of bruises under the nail, they take months to go away. So that approach wasn't going to work. So I'm giving myself a pass on that. But just realize when you're freaking out about probably nothing that you should be handling as a grownup, when you're freaking out about probably nothing that you should be handling as a grownup, it's important to get things checked out and to realize, uh, you know, that you can and should do that when you have something you're concerned about, but try not to freak out pre pre prematurely because, uh, you know, you're going to have to go call all those people that you freaked out and say, yeah, I'm all right. Thanks.

Thanks for letting me drag you down the panic hole. So this is me talking to my friend, Kimmy Gatewood, who is the director of Good on Paper. It's a Eliza Schlesinger movie. She also was in Glow with me and has directed a lot of other stuff. And there's some comedy of her out there. There's stuff. There's stuff. And this is me talking to Kimmy. This is the longest we've ever talked, her and I, actually. of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization,

it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer

becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company marketses with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

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renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Yeah, the jamming was pre-pandemic. Oh, so you can say like, so you have to qualify it like that? Yeah. This was not done out of fear and sadness. This was done because of an abundance, an abundance of things. Yeah. No, the bread my husband was making was made out of fear and sadness. He did the bread?

He did the whole bread. He's still doing it. Oh, no. He's got two different starters. One, the Bestia starter. He started that one. Where'd he get that? From Bestia?

No, I mean, he started it. They a recipe for it or that you can i've never been there you know i just went to their other restaurant yesterday to a bobble yeah however you say it i don't know but uh it's good holy shit like i never go to restaurants because i cook yeah and i just i'm so disappointed at restaurants so because like usually you you're like, this is, what is this? I could make this. It's not amazing, so fuck it. Yeah. But that place is amazing.

Like it's so nice to go to a place and you eat something like, I could never make this. This is like magic food. And if you get their cookbook, they have like egg yolks that take like days to cure. For Bavelle?

Bestia. Oh, Bestia. Bestia has a cookbook. And that's Italian, right? It's like Mediterranean Italian. Really? Slash. Is it amazing?

It's very amazing. I don't eat like, they have a bone marrow dish. I don't eat meat, but I eat fish. So they have this octopus. A what dish? A bone marrow dish. Oh, yeah. It's rough, man.

Everyone is obsessed with it. It's like they scoop the bone marrow out and then there's a whole pasta thing you know oh there's pasta involved yeah cause like cause like straight up

back in back in yeah so straight up yeah cause it's like the straight up bone marrow thing where people just scoop it out of the bone

yeah like I'm pretty I don't things don't bother me but there's something about that the consistency of it not great not great but I like fish tell me about bother me but there's something about that the consistency of it not great not great

but I like fish tell me about the fish oh it's a octopus like it's been but you know it's been sitting around

and soft I like how that's a selling point this stuff is rotten it's on the verge of going bad and it's just how we like it

it's perfect it's a you know pickled and oiled and yeah I just how we like it. It's perfect. It's pickled and oiled. Yeah. I love octopus. I love it. Yeah. But it's all over the place now. I don't know how that is. I start to doubt that. It's not one of those things like, is this fresh? Of course not. It was frozen and then we did the thing to it and here you go. I don't know. I feel bad. I didn't watch the octopus show. Oh know my octopus teacher no i how was i gonna eat octopus after that i just knew right away from the trailer i'm like if i watch this no more octopus for me i don't know if that's true she was my best friend and

my teacher and i watched her give birth and i'm like oh god yeah but that bestia dish is still good yeah it's like uh you can't i know i i won't watch this stuff i should probably not eat meat i don't know yeah i mean you know i i started i became a vegan because uh this guy was dating back in new york was vegan and but he was the kind of vegan that ate like all that fake meat so like i was just like farting all the time oh nice that's the true test of a relationship did that make or break it, the farting? You know, we were okay for a while. Yeah, yeah.

I moved into his apartment. It was nice. And you're both just vegan farting? Yeah. Great. Well, you know, if you can overcome that hurdle, it's not nothing. Yeah, yeah. And you got to.

You got to. Yeah. And then we moved into another apartment at Williamsburg. And it was an empty place. It was a bakery. And then it became a bar. And that pretty much broke our relationship because it was just like open until four in the morning and like I had yeah I had that I had that crazy person um fantasy where I would like drill holes in the basement or you know on the floorboards and like pour water

down oh is that bad yeah nightmare I thought well that's better than like, well, it's only until four, so we're both drinking. Roll out of bed in the morning. You guys open yet? Yeah. We're just upstairs. Knock on the ceiling when you're ready to serve. Yeah. Okay.

So were you living back in New York? Yeah. Yeah. So I went to Syracuse University, graduated in 2000, and came to New York right after But you don't live here? I live in LA. Oh, okay. Yeah. I moved to Syracuse University, graduated in 2000, and came to New York right after that. But you don't live here? I live in LA. Oh, okay. Yeah. I moved to LA in 2008.

So where does it all start? Where'd you grow up? In Maryland. Maryland? Yeah. Like, where's that? Like, what part? I don't talk to many people from Maryland.

So I'm between, like, Baltimore and DC. Right. Virginia is close to Maryland, right? It is, yeah. Okay. There's something called the Delmarva Peninsula, which is Delaware, Maryland, Virginia. Right, right. And then there's Pennsylvania nearby.

Delaware is one of those states where you're like, did we go through it? Yeah. My favorite bit always is that Wayne's World bit where he's like, Delaware, we're in Delaware. I love it so much. I don't know if I, oh, the Delaware River Gap. Sure.

Big bridge, right? Yeah. Pretty. Yeah, there's the Chesapeake Bay. Oh, that's Delaware too? No, that's Maryland. Oh. So how far into Maryland are you?

Is that an east-west situation? Well, you know, Maryland is a very oddly shaped state. Yeah. There's like the little cranky little thin part. Yeah. The upper. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

And then there's the part that kind of hooks over in the Chesapeake Bay. Oh, yeah. Is in the middle of it. So I'm, like I said, between Washington, D.C. and Baltimore. Right. So my dad grew up in Washington, D.C., one of 13 children. What the fuck? So I have lots of aunts and uncles.

13? Yeah. That's crazy.., one of 13 children. What the fuck? So I had lots of aunts and uncles. 13? Yeah. That's crazy. From one woman? Yes. They weren't Catholic, as you can imagine, but Opus Dei Catholic, which is like the Da Vinci Code crazies type. I mean, I don't know if they like-

Your dad was that? My dad was, I mean, his parents were. So Opus Dei has been around that long? Yeah, it's been around for a while. Oh my God. But my dad had me, he had a, it's been around for a while. Oh, my God. But my dad had me. He had a kid when he was like 17 or 18. Because he had to.

Yeah. Get out. There's no going back. And then he had me when he was like 20. So I have a half-brother. No, I have a half-brother. And then I have two other siblings. So the half-brother was like, oops?

Yeah, I didn't even find out about him until I was like 13. And then he was in our life for about four years. And then we didn't hear from him after that. Still? Yeah. I still, I looked for him on Facebook. I found him once and then I lost him again. Did you reach out?

I think I was too afraid to reach out when I was looking. Right. Well, what was the story there? It was like some uh what how did that happen i think it was they weren't married i think no yeah yeah and then she decided to keep the baby and then i don't i don't really i really need to like get it dig dig in with my dad about that because i didn't really ask because it happened like i said when i was 13 and then i was then i was that's when you found out yeah and then i was off in college i yeah i i don't know what we need to find out what

we don't i don't know either it just seems that like you know because the with fairly little effort the information is out there now you know like and people find out things when they do genetic testing a lot of people are finding out that they have half brothers. You know, they've got to be like, Mom, what is that? It's an accident. It was a mistake. We thought we took care of it, but now you untook care of it. Exactly.

We put it up for adoption. Now I don't even know the kid. Yeah. The part that creeps me out the most, I think, is like the sperm donor, egg donor of it all. Because like. Of these doctors? Yeah. Oh, my God.

It's crazy. I'll just use mine. No. Yeah, I'm going to have an army of people. Oh, so creepy. Why do they talk like that, too? Use mine. Yeah, like, I've got plenty.

I can generate this stuff every day. Who's going to be the wiser? They didn't know about 23andMe. All they knew is in their hearts that there were 20 kids somewhere yeah right to know that i know it's wild messed up and i'm like what if they get married yeah what if they just oh the two kids yeah wow i didn't think of that brain instantly goes to that one of 13 you're like i have so many. They have to make sure they're not a gateway. Exactly. You've got to do a genetic screening, just to date a person in the area. So D.C., Opus Dei, were government?

No? In government? No. My sister works for the government now. But your dad's family, the large Catholic family? No, they did like my fascinating story. My grandmother grew up in las vegas she was a part uh like her dad uh owned was the owner or the president of the nevada bank

so they were like socialites in las vegas from the beginning yeah like yeah he was like in the heyday yeah indeed in the heyday i mean there's like there's so many stories about my grandmother there's um like that her grandpa my great-grandfather got the job because he had nice handwriting yeah uh he you know he worked his way up to be president of nevada bank and then the my grandmother, there's like that her grandpa, my great grandfather got the job because he had nice handwriting. Yeah. He, you know, he worked his way up to be president of the amount of bank. And then the other story, she's like, I was, I lived across the street from Bugsy. And I'm like, really?

Yeah. So did everybody. Yeah. It's like Barbara Streisand's mom in Brooklyn or wherever that is. We lived right across from Barbara's mother. Yeah. I don't know if it's Queens, maybe it's Flushing or something. Everybody's like down the street from Barry Manilow.

The Jew thing is, you know, Barbra Streisand's parents, Barry Manilow's parents. He lives all over New York. But Bugsy's cool. Oh, yeah. And then she met my grandfather, who was a life insurance salesman and then had 13 children.

Just like the heyday of Las Vegas quietly disappeared from our family. What, 13, do you know all of them? Yeah, I know all of them. They all came to my wedding. Really? Yeah. That is insane.

I love them. It is so cool to be a part of a family that big. And so how many cousins? 90? Probably at this point. Right? I mean, because the cousins have cousins, you know? And like, it's a lot.

Like the last I checked, I think it was 47. That's amazing. Yeah. Now, I'm sort of fascinated with the Opus Dei thing, but it sounds like you're a generation removed from it. I am. I am. I don't know too much about it.

Yeah. And my dad wasn't really into it. I mean, I was raised Catholic. Yeah. Just because that's like what had to happen. My parents were banished from being married. They had to elope. Oh, they did?

Why? Until she became- Religion. Yeah, until she became Catholic. Oh, so is it hard to become Catholic? Latin involved? Rituals? Robes?

Smoking orbs? Just a lot of kneeling and standing and kneeling and standing. Eating the crackers. Yeah. Because my other grandma, my mom's mom was Baptist, so that's what my mom was. Oh, that's a lot more, that's a modern, more exciting religion. Yeah, yeah.

It was pretty fun. So in the Catholic Church, we had wine. Droney music. And in the Baptist church, it was a little more lively. Lively, but they had grape juice. So that was less fun. Right, yeah. Because when you're a kid, you got a little sip of wine.

Yeah, no, we did that. The Jews did that after services. Little Mogan David. That's where it starts for a lot of Jewish junkies. Oh, no. Strung out Jew blues players. Well, is that bar mitzvah wine? Man, my favorite Jewish holiday is definitely Passover,

but only like one day of Passover. Are you married to a Jew or something? No, no, but I have, I dated a lot of Jews and also like be friends being a comedy, but like loved going to Passover. Do you remember the Purim show they used to do with Rob Kuttner at the Y in New York? I used to do that one all the time with Seth Herzog. Oh, Seth Herzog. Yeah, I did that show once, I think, or twice.

And I went right after Zach Galifianakis and I was like, why am I here? Why am I doing this? I am not supposed to go after Zach Galifianakis and I was like, why am I here? Why am I doing this? I am not supposed to go after Zach Galifianakis. Did he kill? Yes, yes. And then I came up there like, I can't be Gatewin. I was like. Listen, again, I was not long for standup.

I know that feeling. But wait, so when you went to, you have two siblings? I have two siblings, yeah. Yeah, one works at UPS. He's a truck, he's a driver. Oh, really? And then the other one works at the ATF, so.

At the, which is? The Artillery Tobacco Firehouse. Oh, right, right. No, it's a. ATF. Alcohol Tobacco Firehouse. Alcohol, yeah. Oh, really?

Is he an agent? Yeah, no, she's not an agent. She's, she works, she's like agent she's um she works she's like she doesn't really i was like what's going on tell me everything she's like i don't i'm what are you working on yeah i know yeah when's the raid i know i'm like i gotta write a movie about you she's like i work at administration kimmy i just like book the hotel that sounds exciting so you just at the computer most of the time then you get some water sometimes yeah yeah i have to give a presentation every now and again really wow like what how many people um in uniform yeah

so normal normal siblings yeah out in the world yeah my mom works like she works at a company that does the um monitors like the train tracks like the engineers train tracks riveting i know indeed riveting is it what air traffic control for trains kind of no no it's like testing the tracks to make sure that they're safe is that a job you go to work for every day uh well by my mom basically just like gathers she's the same thing administration like gathers the receipts and does the travel for all the people, the engineers that go out on the train. Okay. So she's like, we've got a problem on mile 20 of the, is that the kind of thing? No, she's more like your flights at 355.

Don't miss it. Don't forget to give your expenses and receipts. Okay. And then the guys come back. When did you start doing funny shit shit like high school or uh yeah i i was introduced to improv in high school and uh i would just do it for intermission i would do an improv show in the high school at the at the assemblies no at the play so and the intermission of the play so i'd in the play, and then I'd come out in the middle of intermission and be like, all right, guys, go and buy drinks or whatever, and I'm going to put on an improv show.

Really? So you were in the theater group in high school? Yeah. And you were like, I'm going to carve out this niche for myself. I'm going to riff while people are going to the bathroom. A little bit. Love an interactive moment. Hey, hey, come back here.

Is it just you? It was a lot of times just me, but then I would train people to do it with me. So we would do bits like with, I had a couple of people that would do it with me. Some people wanted to stay in character. Yeah, right. Take their moment during intermission. Oh, wanted to stay in character. Yeah, right, right. Take their moment during intermission. Oh, you mean the people in the play? Oh, yeah.

I mean, I was awesome in the play, but I also like- But you were like, come on, you guys, just stay in character. Come on, we got an audience here. They're captive. Yeah, yeah. You're 14.

You're not a method actor. Let's just do this. That's funny. Yeah, I mean, my, again, being a part of a big family, I would always put on a show and stuff and i think that comedy was just a way of like the the love communication and the the family and like making each other laugh was like when you were got you were beloved by the family

oh yeah funny right right memorable yeah we know this child out of the 40 that we have this one seems to have some talent. I was huge in the Gatewood Circuit. Yeah. Killed them. Killed them with the Aunt Lottie jokes. They loved it. Back in the day.

But yeah, I came to New York and you're so much a part of my story, it's hilarious to me. Yes, because I did... After college or did you go to college? Yeah, after college. Where'd you go to college? I went to Syracuse. Oh, so you were way up there. Yeah. Did you do theater there? Yeah, I did- After college or did you go to college? Yeah, after college. Where did you go to college? I went to Syracuse.

Oh, so you were way up there. Yeah. Did you do theater there? Yeah, I did. I was either going to go do theater at Syracuse or biology at Maryland. And I said, if I get into theater school, I'm going to go to theater school. Really? That was the crossroads?

Yeah. A life of research. Yes. Or maybe being a doctor, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, that was the thing. My friend, her brother or sister is a biologist, and she's like, I research chicken shit all day. And I was like, huh.

Wow. This is, I don't know if that sounds nearly as exciting and romantic as I thought it did, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it definitely doesn't. But it's another one of those things you could do a movie on. To go along with the administration. So what do you do on there? Tell me, where do you get the chicken shit?

Are the chickens on site? Because I think we got an act two there. We won't even see the chickens. Oh, my God. Believe me. I'm like, I'm asking my brother all the time. I'm like,

what's it like being a UPS truck driver? Maybe I can make a character. Yeah. Sorry, it's already been done. King and queen, or whether the king and queen been done.

He's full UPS driver, wasn't he? God, I didn't even realize that. He just came in and, Oh, see, you? God, I didn't even realize that. He just came in in a beautiful... Oh, see, you would have done a whole script. I know. And be like, didn't Kevin James do this for a decade?

Oh, damn it. Thanks, Mark. You saved a year of my life. Saved you some time. So you do theater, like major in it kind of deal? Yeah, I majored in theater and acting. Wow. But it's funny, again, like never in it kind of deal? Yeah, I majored in theater and acting. Wow. And then, but it's funny, again, like never got in like the main stage shows or anything,

would audition. And then I found, again, I would go to do improv shows, the late night improv shows. We had this like comedy trip, the Broken Compass Players that I- It's so funny, the college improv group. I know. What their names are. I just talked to Tom McCarthy and he was in one at bc a long running you know sketch what is that running with scissors or something no i remember what his was called but they actually moved as a group to

minnesota holy cow sort of like do it wow there's a lot of people a lot of good people from minnesota colton dunn charlie sanders victor Bernardo, all those guys are from Minnesota. Are Minnesota guys? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Like that was the generation after me. We were the rogues, the standups.

Yes. Yes. Out there on our own. Room to room. Exactly. Performing for moms everywhere. You younger kids with the group work. You social animals.

Team players. Team players. Yeah. Fuck that, man social animals. Team players. Team players, yeah. Fuck that, man. I'm a rebel. I'm out there on my own being sad in hotel rooms. No, no. What the life?

It's terrible. I've actually grown to really enjoy that part of the life where I'm just in a hotel room. I'm like, I don't have to clean this. There's nobody. I don't hear any noise. I don't have to clean this. There's nobody.

I don't hear any noise. I don't have to worry about anything. It's perfect. There's a tiny water wherever I go. Yeah, yeah. But it's just peaceful. It used to be sort of like, where am I? What kind of life is this?

And now I'm like, it's nice. You can read a book. It's quiet. Yeah, there's nothing to do. All right, so you're doing heavy. You're doing sketch, but you're doing heavy, you're doing sketch, but you're also doing what? Improv.

Beckett. Are you doing the heavy play? That's true. I took a whole semester on Beckett. You did? Yeah, loved it. Yeah, I really did. Can you explain,

what is the key to Beckett? What's the essence? So, okay, I took this Beckett class and I thought it was so stupid and I hated it. Really? And I was took this Beckett class and I was, I thought it was so stupid and I hated it. And I was like, it's pointless. And I was like, this is garbage.

That's exactly, sounds like exactly what Beckett's trying to get across. Sounds like you got the message. I was like, it's not like he's trying. And then like, I just got put into context. And that's like, I feel like when I understood suddenly like reactions and art and what everything. Context. Yes. Context. And that's like, I feel like when I understood suddenly like reactions and art and what everything. Context. Yes, context.

And I, and, and like my, my little, one of my nieces said like, history is stupid because you don't like use it today. And I was like, no, no girl. No. Like history is everything. You have to know the context for where reactions come from. That's a big fear. Like, that's my fear of like the, the way the internet is shifting the brains of younger people is that there's no context and seemingly no need for it.

So we kind of float in this time free zone and we just react to everything all the time. Yes. Yes. In real time rather than looking back. There's no what you have to contextualize to understand the importance of anything or else everything gets dismissed and just thrown onto the pile. Right. Exactly. to understand the importance of anything or else everything gets dismissed and just thrown onto the pile right exactly like you could look at a like some people look at a protest is like you're like look at those angry people on the street just messing up my nice lawn and it's like no no let's look at the context and why they're protesting it's like a history of you know sure so it's uh

it's but but i think that that really opened my eyes and I'm glad that I took that class. Just that you were, it gave you that intellectual peace where you're like, I don't get this shit, it's stupid. And then you're like, but this is what was happening in theater and in the world and where he was at the time. Yeah. Oh. Totally. It was a breakdown. It was a reaction.

Yes, totally. It was like a breakdown of like, what is the meaning of theater? And like, you know, and I became absolutely obsessed with it. There's this one called That Time that I staged. It just like completely, they're all somewhat insane. I played in Endgame.

I played the old woman. There's like Ham and I forget them. I'm gonna get roasted by my theater friends but you can take the hit you had it coming

yeah I did you know you're right Lizzie Kaplan it was her she's talking she's talking right now yeah

well that's interesting that out of nowhere I pulled Beckett up and it's actually the thing did it did it start to frame comedy for you?

I mean, it must have had some influence on something. I think, yeah. I mean, I studied a lot. Like I studied Hitchcock for a semester. But Beckett really stuck with me a lot. I think it was just like thinking outside of the box was something that kind of stuck with me. Yeah, sure. And not like, I love mainstream comedy.

Don't get me wrong. It's my favorite. I saw the movie. I love it. Yeah. I love it. I'm just constantly trying to get my mother to watch something.

She doesn't have Netflix. She's never seen Glow. Oh, really? Yes. So I'm like, all right. That's the worst. I'm going to keep, listen, my biggest accomplishment

was a Peyton Manning commercial I did. I hate when they do that because they, well, you know, everything's changed so much. So they don't know how to sort of like contextualize your fame. Totally. Because it's like, is it on NBC? No. ABC? No.

CBS? No. Then what is it? Right? Sam Beckett. That what is it? Right? Sam Beckett. That's what it is. It's a deconstruction of network television. Nothing.

Yeah, nothing. Nothing, nothing. It's the worst. But yeah, I think theater school, I feel like studying both mainstream and kind of the greats was just good for me. It expanded my palate because I had kind of mostly done just comedy in high school. And there's only so much that you realize a high school teacher can really handle.

What is appropriate. And what a kid can handle. Yeah. So it was good to just really kind of challenge myself. But during that whole process, it was like I was also doing marching band. I played the trombone. I was at a ska band. And I mean, it was prime time.

Wow. Marching band. Yeah. Did you do that in high school too? Uh-huh. Yeah. Really? Yeah.

And in comedy. You're like, ooh. So you were a band nerd and a theater nerd? Yeah. You can imagine. But you're a very expressive nerd huh a very expressive nerd you're putting yourself out there and a lot of the ways that you know mainstream people are like what the fuck look at the chick with the trombone dude she's also in that play man what play What play? That plays here? She also did the intermission. Don't you remember intermission?

It was so fucked up. I don't remember anything. Did we even stay for the second part of the play? High school. She did a whole bit trying to sell a flower to me. She said it wasn't a banana. It wasn't a banana, bro. She's all right, man.

She's cool so uh but you're doing the sketch stuff so you're learning how to work with people and then you just go to new york oh yeah after then after college went to new york just went straight to new york moved in with a friend from college um worked at columbia university for a year as an assistant to a professor. Yeah. It was a weird job. What kind of professor? Comparative literature. Really? Yep. My buddy's a teacher at Columbia.

Yeah. I got that job through, it was a temp job, and this woman, Gayatri Chakravorty-Spevak, who's a very impressive professor, she went through like 50 assistants in six months. Nobody liked to work for her. And I was like doing extra work on SNL and stuff. You were? During the time, yeah. And like I just wanted to be,

I wanted to audition and I wanted to be in theater. And then I got this temp job and she was yelling at me for whatever reason. And I was just like, why are you being so mean to me? And she went, you know what, Kim, I like you. You talk back to me. You keep me in, you talk straight to me. i would like to offer you a full-time job and i was like oh my god yeah here you be a punching bag

so i said yes because it was like you know 35 000 a year or whatever and like did she keep yelling at you uh she kept yelling me me, but I would just talk back. I would just clap back. Oh, really? Oh, there's the movie. Okay. UPS truck driver meets a professor from Columbia. Yeah.

And the ATF is on to them. But it was wild. is on to them. Yeah. But it was wild. It was just a, it was a really interesting, interesting job because I would,

I just like didn't care what she thought because I had no interest in. Nothing invested. There was no future to it. Yeah, but that's what she loved about me, I guess.

Did you learn anything from her? I mean, could you go to classes or anything? No. Or was she an interesting person? I read, I read? I read some books.

She really liked Kurt Vonnegut so I read a bunch of Kurt Vonnegut books and finally read Bluebeard and I was helping coordinate this guy, Dada. I don't know if you're familiar

with like Dadaism or whatever but like he's like, he came over and I kind of learned and I've already forgotten about Dadaism. There was a guy named Dada? Yeah, there was a guy named Dada. I know what Dada is but, and I've already forgotten about Dadaism. There was a guy named Dada?

Yeah, there was a guy named Dada. I know what Dada is, but I didn't know there was a Dada. There was a guy. Yeah, a guy, Dada. Yeah, Dada Daddy. Yeah. Yeah, a Dada Daddy. At the time.

I don't remember now. But I definitely loved all the philosophical thought. I don't know. Yeah, it's high-minded shit. Yeah, it's so funny. It all goes back to Beckett opening her mind and stuff. I'm like, this is so fucking stupid. And I'm like, you know what?

They have a point. Yeah, and academia is its own world. I mean, that's where that stuff lives. It's the only place that keeps it alive, really. Any of that stuff. If it wasn't for academia, no one would give a fuck about Beckett anywhere. Totally.

It's sort of sad. Every once in a while they can sort of convince two celebrities to do Waiting for Godot. Yeah. And then people are like,

no, it's the thing. Bill Irwin, he saved us again. But maybe I'm being cynical. I don't know. But also, you know, it's... So how did you get

extra work at SNL? Oh, man. So, you're not going to believe this, a cousin. I don't know. But also, you know, it's. So how did you get extra work at SNL? Oh, man. So you're not going to believe this. A cousin. One of the many. One of the 90 cousins. My cousin's aunt. Yeah.

Who's a screenwriter out here. He's genius. Your cousin is. Yeah, Brian. And his aunt. So not my aunt, but his aunt. So his mom's sister. She worked for Lorne Michaels and

like I got in to do extra work you were just on the list yeah they were like can you my cousin you know so I got on the list and then so I did it the amount of times you could do it before you had to join a union and then at the

time it was after us it was like a thousand bucks to join and I couldn't afford it so i did it until that moment but like it was oh it was just wild because it was my dream was my whole dream was being on saturday night live yeah and i and this is before you did comedy or anything else no this was like at the beginning this is like the year 2000 right when i landed i was doing this and i couldn't believe that i was so close there in the studio on the set doing the thing, sitting at a table in the background. Yeah, like sitting in the, yeah,

like in there was those like screening room type places that they would just keep us and like. Who was the cast then? It was like Ratio Sands, Chris Parnell. What about, you know, Will Ferrell, was he gone? I think he might've, I think he and like sure Terry Molly Shannon probably just left. And what about Fallon know will ferrell was he gone or is he i think he might have i think he and like sure terry molly shannon probably just left and what about fallon was fallon yeah he was still there yeah but i you know i didn't really get to meet too many people you get to watch him

right yeah i got to watch him and ucb like horatio sands would hang out and so we i would he would come back and say hi yeah yeah yeah right when you got here, you got into classes over there? Yeah, yeah. Oh, so that's it. So that's it. Was that when it was in the old porno theater? Yeah, on 22nd Street. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. So I started like, I think the theater started in 96 or 98 maybe, 98. They were at Solo Arts and then in 2000 when I got there,

they moved to 22nd Street. And Matt Walsh lived upstairs? Did he live upstairs? Kind of, right there. Oh my God. I worked at a place called Live Bait on 23rd Street and he would come in there because he was dating one of the girls there.

I remember Live Bait. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was like a, it was a happening bar for a minute, right? Yeah. It was right at, yeah, 23rd in that area by the Flatiron Building kind of, right?

Yep. I couldn't get a job at the sister place. It was the diner in Union Square. Do you remember that place with all the hot models who worked there? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was that called? I forget. It's a big place.

Yeah. And there was all models that worked there. And I applied to work there after Columbia. And they literally looked me up and down. They went, you should go to Live Bait. Oh, wow. It was so rude. Wow.

You can only imagine, though, being a marching band and a theater nerd. Yes. This is something, a rejection I was used to. Go to Live Bait. Take your trombone. But I learned how to shuck oysters there at Live Bait. All right. So you got the job at LiveBake. Okay, so you're doing the SNL thing.

You're doing the UCB. Who's teaching at UCB? It was Andy Secunda, Sean Conroy, Billy Merritt. Oh, yeah. Like, Amy was still doing, like, one-off classes, and Ian Roberts was still doing, like, an occasional class here or there. No Matt Walsh? He was probably teaching, i didn't know besser i never never i was so afraid of matt besser i i

still i can never i'll never get over my fear of him yeah he's intense you know you feel you know there's something i can see how it'd be frightening right it's like a 22 year You're like, oh God, I don't want to fuck up in front of you. And like you, I would do those late night shows. You're like, all right, Kimmy, get on stage. You know? And I'd be like, oh God, I'm going to fuck it up. Oh really? Yeah.

Besser? Yeah. There was like these shows where you would just kind of like, you know, throw everybody on stage, take them off stage. And like, it was, it was, it was a thrill, but it was so, it was so scary. I don't know that whole process you're just hanging improv

well yeah I mean I go do shows stand up shows at UCB and I'd have this fundamental resentment against these you know well adjusted people

that can work as a group you know and the audiences like I you know no matter how many people try to hang alt comedy

on me or me being part of it I resented it. I was at Luna yelling because I couldn't get work elsewhere. You know, I was there. I was watching you. Yeah.

Is that where I made a difference somehow? Is that how I'm part of the story? But that was in the 90s. No, you were always, no, you, you were there.

You were there. Yeah. Todd Berry, Shloven and Allen, all those guys. And I would do like, I, like my, I finally did like a 30 for 30 or was 60 and 60.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, one of those. I was like, when I did that, I was just like, I've made it. Oh, as a standup? Yeah, like just doing a bit.

Like, I don't know if I was a standup. Was it like a minute? Yeah. Right, I remember those. Yeah, those were fun. What was the point of those? What was the name of the guy

that used to organize those? He had like a, kind of a good name. I can't remember., those were fun. What was the point of those? What was the name of the guy that used to organize those? He had like a kind of a good name. I can't remember. He was a comic. I can't remember his name. We can't do the memory thing. No. But you were trying stand-up?

Yeah, I did stand-up for a minute. And it's just because I was trying to figure out where I belonged in the comedy world. Yeah, right. Because you don't, there's no, I mean. Yeah. It's like coming to Hollywood. You're like, I'm going to be an actor. And then they're like, this is really crazy.

Try something else. Yeah, you can't just do that. No. So I tried it. I like, I, my friend, a college friend worked for Barry Katz. So like he would put me on a couple of gigs. Yeah. And like, I went, I went out with.

That's a, that's a messy hole of an office to work in. Indeed. I opened for like Bobby Kelly once and Al Madrigal. I was like, this was not my crowd. You know what I mean? Wow, sweet. I did like guitar comedy. You did?

Yes. Bobby Kelly, those are sweet guys. They're so- Those two. Yes, they're so sweet and they were so funny. And we had a great time good um out of all of the comics you got two that yeah i mean bobby kelly's a monster but he's a sweet monster very sweet monster no they were they were really nice to me and but it's just like

they could tell like that i was a funny person but i just like it was not translating to me on stage right for me for stand-up yeah so i just was like i don't i don't think i need to do this anymore um but improv was like connecting with me and sketch was really like connecting with me when did you meet rebecca uh i met her in 2006 so so you were just bouncing around for years in new york yeah wow i uh i taught improv i worked at the pit oh you did yeah oh the pit i remember that place yeah and people's improv theater um i did uh work with kirsten ames who at westbeth yeah i worked or westbeth or not a 45 after i was after like itty-izzer times okay yeah

so I did Jerusalem Syndrome around that time I know I know Mark that was like that was like 2001

what that was but I so Kirsten Ames 99 yeah she took me under her wing

and like she was doing a solo show class so she needed directors oh really for her solo show class. So she needed directors. Oh, really? For her solo show class. And it was an amazing class of people, like including Afira Eisenberg was in this class.

Lisa Lampanelli was in the class. And so it was just after your show. So it was kind of like a template for like how a solo show could be developed. That's right. She definitely developed mine with me. So like, so I would work with people's stories, their real stories, help them develop into shows or like if they wanted to do a character.

Dramaturging. Indeed. Yes. Yeah. And then I would, you know, then start to put together their actual solo shows. Who'd you do that for? Eileen Kelly.

Uh-huh. Niki Farsad. There was a couple others. That was sort of a format. Yeah. That was sort of a way to present oneself at the time. Indeed. I mean, listen, I had two solo shows too.

Did you? Yeah. Well, I just talked to a guy in Denver who's about to do one at the fringe you know and it's like as a form you know i don't know i i you know i look back on on the what i've done and how i've done it and i i don't know do you know what i mean you know i'm still a comic yeah but you know the idea of the show the solo show gave you a little more latitude to, you know, but, you know, when you're a comic in your heart and soul, there's some part of you going like,

no, you can't be funny all the way through. You know what I can't? You know what, Mr. Drama Guy now? What are you? Got to find, you're going to cry a little bit? What are you going to do? Having a Tom Hanks moment, sir? Exactly.

It was something like, well, you can't manage, you can't handle the, you know. Yeah, I hear you. But I did them. And Jerusalem Syndrome was, I look back on it, and it's such a mockable format. Andy Secunda did a one-woman show because he had directed so many. It was hilarious. Oh, really? He did his own one-woman show. Oh, directed so many. It was hilarious. Oh, really? He did his own one-woman show.

Oh, that's hilarious. Yeah, it was very fun. Armisen used to do a bit about a guy doing a one-man show. Oh, yes. Have you seen that thing? Yes, yes. After I saw that, I'm like,

oh my God, I can't. No one can do them anymore. Just the movement, the weird intentional stage movements of a guy who's not used to being on stage in any way they had to really make decisions it's fucking genius so so that's what started you directing yeah i mean you know i directed in college i did um oh right the uh right the um the beckett indeed yeah back itself i did the female version of The Odd Couple in college.

Oh, that's a fun show. I love that show. And what really motivated me was that my professor at the time said, well, why would they do it with women? How is that funny? And I was just like, the fire was lit. It really pissed me off. Isn't it weird what teachers can teach you involuntarily?

Yes, indeed, sir. And yeah, so I had kind of been, I mean, how I got to where I am today is kind of like, I've been doing it for a long time, but didn't necessarily know that it was a thing that you could do. Because everyone told me it was too hard to break in. To direct a film. Direct a film, direct TV, anything like that. it was too hard to break in to direct a film direct a film direct tv anything like but it seems like it's hard sure but i mean but it seems like i think you and um rebecca were sort of ahead of the curve in the podcasting oh yeah we had we did our apple sisters podcast now yeah so because that's sort of it seems to me that that in terms of landing the comedy world in an earnest way, it was with that.

Right. Let's see. I mean, so when we created the Apple Sisters in 2006 or 2007 and we went to the Montreal Just for Laughs Comedy Festival and that was like kind of our big break. And that was in 2008. And this was just the two of you, right? Three of us. Three of you. So me, Rebecca, and Sarah.

A nostalgia act in a way. Yeah. We're a 1940s comedy radio show. So I love the Marx Brothers. Came up with that. Yeah. And we love to sing and dance. Sarah comes from a Broadway family.

Her grandmother's Ruby Keeler from 42nd Street. Oh, wow. Yeah. And Rebecca and I were the only female teachers. And people kept telling us at the pit. And they're like, you guys should do a show. We're like, fuck you, just because we're women. And then we're like, actually, I think you're really funny. I did this pin-up calendar, a comedy pin-up calendar.

And Rebecca saw it and was, all right, we're going to work together forever. And I was like, great. Super. So I came up with this bit. And we did a new show every month. So we would write three brand new songs, choreograph themograph them write comedy bits like your classic pie in the face like so it was almost like a period piece variety show yeah but it was satirical so we would very much talk about a lot of like the war going on because you know bush was president at the time and like as like as these characters yeah yeah okay so

there's a war going on sir a woman running for president you know whatever yeah yeah right right yeah yeah oh it's great

get back to the kitchen yeah but so there's three of us there's Candy Cora and Seedy Apple I play Cora Apple

the dumb one I just love semen sailors and Candy is the she's got a husband named Cheryl who's a man fighting in the war overseas. Our closeted lesbian character. And then C.D. Apple who's like the Jesus-loving, in denial, conservative of our group. So we've had a lot of fun over the years.

Like just poking fun at politics through the 1940s lens so when you did montreal i mean what what what did that yield i mean where you offered a show or did you take meetings as a group and yeah no you did we got agents and managers from that oh yeah so that was it yeah we signed with like uta and principato young after that like because we were like the only unrepresented group we're the only females in the sketch comedy, like block. Are you still with Principato? No,

not anymore, but still with UTA. No, things change, Mark. You got to start somewhere. Yeah, exactly.

It's so, it's so funny. Cause I knew Peter, Peter's a Principato when they were all starting out. Yeah. And I didn't realize that, you know, it's just the nature of the thing.

Everybody starts out and whatever they're doing in show business and they just eventually evolve and some make it some don't i was such a dick to him and those guys i was just like you know who the fuck are these people with these suits you know like i just was reliant i just i remember there was a point where peter like you know made the shift from you know being a suit guy manager to the leather jacket guy and i'm'm like, it's a leather jacket guy now. But then they went on to have a big career. They're big. But when I knew them,

they were like, who's this guy? I'm such a dick. I gotta be careful of that stuff. I think it's alright, Mark. You're doing alright. People love you for exactly who you are. I bet you he remembers me as a dick. There are some people that have those memories. Peter Principato.

I don't think he has a lot of power to hurt me now, but remember that thing you said about my jacket? I'll never forgive him. Yeah, never forgive him. You're not working for him. I wore flannel for the rest of my life. No Principato projects for that kid. So that's where you got the agent you got going yeah and i that's the year i tested for saturday night live because i was doing my solo show called the engagement and so i was doing like um i was

doing a couple of uh weird impressions like characters impressions stuff like that um my favorite impression was judy gar, who was afraid of bears. Oh, really? So stupid. But that's the kind of thing that they do. Yeah, it was really fun. How'd it go? I was, hello, I'm Judy, Judy Garland.

You're a bear. Show your bear sitting in front of your microphone and laughing with your big mustache. It's a bear mustache if I ever saw one. So stupid. Did you get all the way through to Lauren? I did. I got all the way through. I got the call to do the comic strip. Had to go show up in the middle of a show.

The Marcy Klein call? Was it? Yeah. And they were like, I remember going to that show. One girl's throwing up in the bathroom and Lauren's there Mikhail Watkins is actually

throwing up no no no but we auditioned together Mikhail and I yeah I love Mikhail and so I mean that's that's when I

like first met her we were on the audition and I was like obsessed with her when I saw her bits yeah and it's a weird it's a really hard

thing to come up on stage her story her SN It's a weird, it's a really hard thing to become a one-page. It's a sad story, her story, her SNL story. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Our paths were like, and then she went up there, and I ran to LA. So she got on the show for, she was only on one year, right? Yeah.

And then you went where? I went to LA. It broke me. It broke my heart. The rejection of it? Yeah, because I went to LA. It broke me. It broke my heart. The rejection of it? Yeah, because I went, I did that and then got,

you did the tape and then you go studio and then you go test at 8H and I was getting very encouraging emails and texts from the writers there but then I didn't get it

and it just broke me. I was broken. Heartbroken. The show business. yeah and i i literally was like i'm leaving new york there's nothing left for me here and what about rebecca we we all decided to go to la together you did yeah oh yeah we we came to la together. Thank God. Where's that movie? We're pitching a lot of movies. I know. This is just a movie pitching session.

The Columbia professor is still my favorite. Okay, good. Only if she has that accent. You got it. Yeah. She's from colonialized India. Oh, wow. Yeah. Very specific.

How is that not the best movie? So you get out here. Yeah. And everything, the sky's open. LA welcomes you. I'm working at the City Bakery in Brentwood. My boss is 18 years old and I'm almost 30. Is that true?

Yes. Oh, wow. It was a rocky start, but I was determined to make it, Mark. Yeah, and look at you. You did it. Yeah, but Rebecca came and Sarah actually went to Las Vegas to do Jersey Boys. So we were performing between LA. We were doing our live shows in LA and Las Vegas.

Did you do Jersey Boys? I was in the movie, yeah. Oh, yeah, the movie, right. Sarah was actually pregnant, and so she said to the casting director, my sisters, which at this point we're basically sisters, but my sisters can do the show because they've seen it so many times.

And I was like, okay. Yeah. I got it, which was wild. Jersey Boys is the Rudy Valli one? The Frankie Valli? Frankie Valli, yeah. Who's Rudy Valli? Rudy is an older actor.

Oh. From probably the 40s-ish. From the 1900s? Yes. So let's see. Discography, 1929 was his first record. All the way through to 1976.

I mean, they were contemporaries, I guess. Kinda. Sort of. He's an old-timer. Yeah. But Frankie Valley, sure, yeah. Yeah, I met Frankie Valley, took a picture of Frankie Valley. Kinda. Sort of. He's an old timer. Yeah. But Frankie Valli, sure. Yeah.

Yeah. I met Frankie Valli. I took a picture of Frankie Valli. Yeah. That was wild. I met Clint Eastwood. That was crazy. I mean, he directed the movie.

He did? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. How was Clint? I mean, he's like the coolest guy ever. And I mean, this was like shortly after the chair situation. So that was a little weird.

Yeah. Politics aren't great, but show business legend. Show biz, indeed. But yeah, no, he let me improvise on set, which was crazy. That's rare for him, I think, isn't it? Does he do that? I don't know. I don't know.

Did he make the film? No. But he liked it. Okay. But that movie just stuck basically to the Broadway show script. Right. So you just want to improvise to entertain him. Indeed.

But you do like two takes. You don't do that much. It's a very quiet set. He's very just like efficient. Just gives you like one little adjustment, but really like trust the actors. When you're talking to him, he's like, I don't like to look at myself anymore, Kimmy. Really? He said that?

Yeah. He's like, when I look at myself, I see this old guy, but I don't feel old. It's kind of heartbreaking somehow. Yeah. But then he also makes jokes about, you know, my improv being like rated G, rated PG, and then rated X. That's funny. It sounds like he had a real dynamic relationship, right? Yeah.

Listen, I mean, he's an actor, so you imagine that he just knows. The cool thing about him is he knows and will come to you because he's a legend. Because I'm sure it's very intimidating to go to somebody like that. It's weird. Where some people will close themselves off. Right. It's intimidating to approach them. He wasn't like that.

He wasn't like that. That's nice. So when did you start that Apple Sisters podcast? That was with Earwolf, right? Yeah, it was Earwolf. I think we started in 2010, maybe. Sort of a radio play kind of thing. Yeah.

Yeah. So we would take our old live shows, our scripted shows, and we would write new podcasts about them. So we would do- Because that was like, you must have been one of the first ones doing radio theater podcasts. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there was the Thrilling Adventure Hour. They were doing stuff, I think, in Tanda, but in LA. So we didn't really we've eventually crossed paths but but yeah we were doing like i didn't realize how kind of rebel not revolutionary forgive me because the radio has been around but like how different it was to be doing scripted stuff on podcast yeah because yeah because it was the wild west then i mean that we started in 2009 and there were podcasts around but it wasn't a popular medium So you could kind of do whatever you wanted. And there was only a couple that I knew of doing that scripted stuff. Yeah. The straight up radio plays

in a way, some of them. And that became a very popular mode later. I don't know when that happened, when it really started to take off. Yeah. Why we didn't continue is because like, there was like some, I don't know, some structure stuff, but then like, we didn't continue is because like there was like some I don't know some structure stuff but then like we didn't make any money doing that we didn't and they were um they were uh paying their engineers but like I don't think that much and like then when they were like you guys have to figure this out on your own we're like we have no idea how to do this oh to get listeners and to figure make out make a living yeah once yeah once we had done it for like a year, doing all these brand new scripted shows,

we were kind of like, what are we doing? We're just kind of like... Yeah. We had a great... We had a really great listenership, you know? Yeah. And then it just got... Once they kind of handed it over to us,

we were like, uh... It's hard. How do you fucking do it? How do you get traction? What do you do? And hand it over to us, we were like, uh, it's hard. How do you fucking do it? How do you get traction? How do you do, what do you do? What, and hand it over to you in,

in which sense in order to, to try to monetize it? No, I, I don't, they, they were just going to take away. They were like,

we don't, we can't do your studio time anymore. Like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it was like the infrastructure they were taking away. Well,

that, what are you going to do? What are you going to do it at your house? That kind of thing. So they kicked you out of the podcast. Well, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Are you going to do it at your house? That kind of thing? Yeah. So they kicked you out of the building. Yeah, kind of. Yes.

But I think that was when like some, you know, like when they're probably being bought by somebody. Yeah, sure. By Scripps. Scripps, yeah. But yeah, we were, that was, that was, it was fun for us because you didn't have to do props, costumes, book a stage, you know, but then there was,

but all of the recording and, you know, tags and producing was all being done for us. Oh, in order for you to keep doing it, you would have to figure out, find somebody to do that. Yeah. So it just went away. It just went away. That's right. It was kind of sad. And then you were just doing the acting.

Yeah. Back to acting, Mark. Yeah. And then you get just doing the acting yeah back to acting mark yeah and then you get glow yep i get glow the thing that definitely completely changed my life because i was about to actually go um run a podcast network seriously yes and they wanted you and rebecca as a package Seriously. Yes. And they wanted you and Rebecca as a package. For GLOW, yes, yeah. So we auditioned together. So Jen Houston, the casting director.

Yeah, the legendary casting director. Legendary. So we met in New York. She saw the Apple Sisters, was a fan of the Apple Sisters. You know, brought me in for like Scott Pilgrim. Oh yeah. Like brought me in. Yeah.

Was very, very supportive. She's great. Another one I've known since she was like a child I think yeah she's amazing I've it's been

and like she's you know buds with Alison Jones like they kind of are and like those two really have changed

my life for sure yeah another casting director yeah and so yeah Jen brought Rebecca and I in

and we just thought we didn't have a chance we were like Jenji Koen show yeah like a just thought we didn't have a chance we were like Jenji Cohen show like a glow which we both knew and liked and we were like this is this is never going to happen and so I was going to get like the timeline is

kind of crazy because I was going to get on a plane I was going to do the audition get on a plane to New York accept the job and then become an executive producer of a podcast so we get the audition. She's like, you can improvise,

just do some characters and stuff. So we did like the Apple Sisters. We did a couple of other bits that we'd kind of come up with because like we drove back and forth to Vegas for years, Rebecca and I. We have so many show ideas.

We have so many characters that we do. Why back and forth to Vegas? Because Sarah Lowe, my third Apple sister lives in Vegas. So Rebecca and I would drive to Las Vegas. So during those, I, during those like hours and hours and hours on the road,

the two of us, we came up with, like we had a business together called the nerds of a feather where we saw feather fascinators. We worked at the same bar together. We, uh, we like, we sold a pilot together.

Like we have done so much shit because of that car ride. Yeah. That when this came along, it was just like an extension of just like us being in the car for five hours. That's great. Yeah. That's great. So.

That's a great story. The incubator. Yeah, indeed. And so we, yeah, we, we auditioned and then we got call back, and I was like, hilarious universe. So I had to move my plane for my interview a week. For the podcast network, the big podcast break.

What network is that? How are they doing now? It's Earwolf. It is? They work full circle. That's interesting. Yeah. But yeah, I like the people that work there.

So we did the callback, which they didn't give us a script. It was Liz, Carly, Jenji. They're just like, come up with some characters. So we're like, okay. So we just came up with some wrestling characters. We did some old ladies, even though they didn't ask for it, but then they just sat and talked to us about our story and like we had, how we met

and like we had children three months apart and like we've just done everything together and they wanted real friends who were also a comic duo. Right. And that- It was custom made for you guys. Truly, but we just really didn't think,

and we saw Sadal coming down from like, we were like, she's so fit. I was like, for you guys. Truly. But we just really didn't think. And we saw Sadell coming down from like. Right. We were like, she's so fit. I was like, we don't have a chance. Like, I was like, I had a baby like nine months ago. This is not a good look. Yeah. So we were like, eh, fuck it.

You know, this is kind of one of those auditions. Yeah. That we really threw caution to the wind. And then I went to have coffee the next day with Molly Prather. And I decided to turn my phone off because I was like, I'm going to be in the moment. I haven't seen you in so long.

We were roommates together. She goes to the bathroom. I decide to turn my phone back on and there's like 40 missed calls. That was the day that we got glow. Oh, wow. That's great. It's nice when it's all got Glo. Oh, wow. That's great. It's nice when it's all at once.

Yeah, yeah. You're like, what, what, what? Yeah, it was a life-changing experience for sure. It was a great time we had. Man, it was a great time we had. And it's so fucked up that we couldn't finish it. Yeah.

I really liked your message about the movie. I really liked your message about the movie. I really liked it. I don't remember what I said. You were just talking on social media and on livestream. You were just like, just let us do the fucking movie, man. That's what the people want. It wouldn't have been that big a deal.

No, it wouldn't have been that big a deal. They could have, Netflix could have done it. I don't know what budgetary things, but they already written a fucking season, most of it. So the writing wouldn't have been that big a deal. And in terms of like,

it just seemed like it could have been done. It would have been a nice thing to do. It would have been really nice. But it really was an issue of, it's not that I have sympathy, but I understand why they couldn't do it. They were just holding on to all those location sets and it was indefinable. And we could barely do it now.

I mean, the protocols just shifted with that kind of show. I mean, there was no way to do it without daily testing. And it just wasn't there. And they couldn't wait. Yeah. What are you going to do? Yeah, no, that was sad. That was a tough call to get in, like, the midst of all this shit, you know?

Oh, yeah. So, how did you get this Eliza thing? Because this is, like, the first feature film. Yeah. So, I started directing television. Like, I got my DGA. I started directing before. Like, I directed a couple YouTube Red series.

I directed, like, a bunch of, like, sketches. like I directed a couple youtube red series I directed like a bunch of like sketches and I did all of Rachel Bloom's like music videos and you did and like so you've been really busy with it yeah yeah before before glow came along I was just doing these like I did a web series called junketeers for comedy central and I did a youtube red show called hyperlinked and um I'd done those pilots and they both got picked up for series and it was kind of one of those things that motivated me that this might be what I should be doing instead.

Right, right. And then of course, Glow was like, nope. They wouldn't let you direct? No, no, no, no. Oh. No, they just like. Oh, they casted you. Yeah, they cast me so I'm back in acting again.

Yeah, yeah. However. You're back to the puppet show. Yeah. Though I didn't believe it. Like I just didn't believe that like anything i don't i didn't trust acting like i don't trust acting gigs like i always feel so fleeting and you don't have any power no agency indeed yes even though like it was the greatest like acting experience of my life

um but i was just like i don't know what's going to happen after this i need some like insurances and so actually i got my first dga gig during the first season one of glow so they let me off an episode to direct this uh amazon show which was amazing because they didn't have to do that but it's very nice um and uh so but they saved the salary so that's good good all around yeah but uh then after directing a bunch of television, I was, you know, I directed, my first feature was a documentary called Nerdcore Rising that I did in 2008. Wow. I made it with Nagin Farsad. We made it, we followed this guy, MC Frontalot, who rapped about Dungeons and Dragons and Magic the Gathering.

It's very funny. So we were discovering this world in like 2005, 2006. Yeah. And we raised our own money. It was pre-Kickstarter. So we were just like asking people to PayPal us money and we raised our own money um it was pre-kickstarter so we were just like asking people to paypal us money and we would put them in the credits always on the forefront mark yeah good cutting edge and that went to south by southwest in 2008 so that's kind of like where i started um put you on the map yeah put yeah put me on the map in

terms of like i i didn't go to film school but this is kind of like my i learned how to operate a camera i learned how to you know do sound and i'd always been tinkering i wanted to get back to a feature so when this came along that it was actually getting made which you know is a miracle that any movie gets made eliza's yeah eliza's movie yeah and she had been trying to make it for a long time. I read it. I liked it. I knew what to do with it. Right. It was with Universal. And it got pushed by three months. It was going to shoot in Chicago.

Then it got pushed by three months. And it was shot in LA. Okay. So she had good on paper for a long time. Yeah. Eliza had the script. Yeah, she had the script for a long time. Okay. Because it was based on the story that she told in stand-up.

Yeah. And so she, you know, it takes... About dating a guy that turned out to be a complete fraud. Exactly. Yeah.

I had to pitch, you know, to her and the producers and Universal and I got the job. So... You had to pitch your vision for how you do it. Did you have to make a board?

I... The first meeting was just all talking about story characters, how it was going to look. And then the second meeting, I put together a little lookbook for them. Okay, lookbook, yeah. Yeah. Oh, good.

And had casting ideas. And so, you know, a lot of the references were, you know, those old thrillers. Yeah. And Eliza trusted you from the get-go? Yeah. Oh, that's great yeah no we had a great working relationship and she's like she's a worker yeah yeah i mean i would have notes and i would send them to her and then she would turn around the script in like three days while she was on the road doing stand-up yeah she's a fucking worker yeah work, such a hard worker. And, you know, it came together so fast because I originally, I think I was hired probably a month before they were going to start shooting. And then it got pushed.

So we got some time to develop the script and, like, get shit together. But luckily, I had worked on a lot of independent. I come from independent film, a lot of independent i come you know from independent film a lot of indie stuff so i could call upon a lot of good people um including my ad drew langer who um worked with the uh duplass brothers so he really gets that like sure low budget yeah fast pace oh yeah there are people that lynn could make a movie in a couple weeks yes oh drew is actually lynn's was lynn's ad yeah right that's why i was uh i obviously hugely admired everything she did and probably modeled my whole career after what she did yeah when she wanted to make a movie she'd make a movie i know it's so inspiring like just do it like what are you waiting for because yeah

we know that if you go through the studio it'll take forever yeah so this movie felt very much in that spirit it was just like let's do it and you know called in every favor possible and it was popular right I mean listen it was like this 1.2 million dollar movie at Universal we finished it right at the top of the pandemic so I finished

editing in February 2020 and then had to do all the rest of the post stuff when the pandemic was first starting we were just like inventing in February 2020. And then had to do all the rest of the post stuff when the pandemic was first starting. We were just like invent, like we were like, let's try this thing called Zoom. Right, yeah, sure, yeah.

And try to like do ADR. But they didn't put it, it didn't get released until after, or until a few months ago, right? Yeah, a few months ago. So when I kind of, when we started this film, we kind of thought it was gonna be, you know it was going to be this South by Southwest in some theaters. And then Netflix kind of came in. They really got behind it and put it on billboards in Times Square.

It was unbelievable. Yeah. It's like I went. You skipped it. It might not have gone that way. Yeah. If you'd gone festivals. Yeah. It probably just would have been. You'd have to find a distributor and like just but yeah but yeah they made a big deal of

it because they're what did was she does she have a deal there or or like because they they've they've given her a lot of opportunities yeah yeah yeah so they like her right she had like five specials it was the perfect place to go ultimately because it would have ended up at a streamer anyway. And so the fact that, uh, yeah, I think when I saw her, she's like number three on Netflix. That was trippy. And I was scared out of my mind because this, you know, you, I kind of went in thinking like, okay, great. This will be like, you know, like all my friends are like, they all, they do the festivals and then they slowly get to their big movie and like it was just like out of the gate like you're like you're a director now you do features yeah this is what we think of you yeah

it was scary yeah is it still scary it is still scary have you gotten offers and stuff are you yeah yeah it's been great oh good it's been great and um you know, yeah. It's been great. Oh, good. It's been great. And, you know, it's still always going to be hard to make a movie no matter what. Yeah. I had been attached to a big Sony feature before I got Eliza's movie and it fell through. But that attachment to that big movie is the thing that got me Eliza's movie. So everything, like, serves its purpose, obviously. And, like, everything's a learning lesson.

And the glow helped my directing career. The movies helped my TV directing career. Sure. You never know. But it's working out. It's working out. All right. Well, it's good to see you.

Thanks, Mark. This is such a nice thing for you to invite me. I always wondered when it was going to happen, if it was ever going to happen. It happened. And it means so much. Oh, thank you. And my father-in-law

listens to this podcast religiously, so what's up, Jay? Okay, well, good. I'm glad. It was great. I love talking to you. I have to say,

he calls, he says, Kimmy, Mark talked about your movie today. So thank you for that, too. But now he's going to know a lot about you. I know.

Kimmy Gatewood, Good on Paper, the movie with Eliza Schlesinger that she directed, is now streaming on Netflix. Here's some sad guitar for Charlie Watts. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey. Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. Cat angels everywhere. We'll be right back. almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream,

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