WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1312 - Mike O'Brien

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Mike O'Brien has the distinction of being responsible for Marc Maron crossing over into the world of improv. With a background in the Chicago improv and sketch scene and seven seasons writing for Saturday Night Live, Lynn Shelton approached Mike to help create a movie that would be entirely improvised by the cast. That movie was Sword of Trust starring Marc Maron. Mike and Marc talk about the making of the film, Mike's comedy background, and the fan movement that gave Mike's TV show, A.P. Bio, a new life. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, Knicks? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Tuplets? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. How's it going? How are you? Are you okay? Is everything all right? What day is today? Thursday? Tonight? I will be in Troy, New York. Tomorrow, Friday, I will be in Laconia, New Hampshire, and then Saturday, Burlington, Vermont, at the Flynn Center. All right? I'm just throwing that out there. That Flynn Center gig.

Is it going to be snowing? What's going to happen? Going to be driving around the northeastern seaboard. Is it almost? Not really? New England. How's that? Might be snowing, gonna be like the old days. Gonna be like getting snowed in in Boston. So many years of my life I spent back there driving through snow, digging my car out of feet, multiple feet of snow to slide around the streets like every other idiot. To slide around the streets like every other idiot.

Man, looking forward to it. Looking forward to being terrified on the roads of New England over the next few days. How are you guys doing? At least it'll get me engaged. There's nothing like driving in a snowstorm to make you feel present. That's where I want to be, man. I want to be awake, engaged, and present and scared that someone's going to slide on black ice into my vehicle from the other side of the highway. That's living, man. That's living on the edge. Just, hey, man, if I don't pump these brakes, these things are going to lock up and all that black ice i can't see might just send me spinning down 95 in all different directions who knows where i'll land good times are coming uh today on the show i've got michael bryan now michael bryan is a guy i

met a few years back with lynn he's a comedian and a sketch performer and a former writer on Saturday Night Live. But he co-wrote the movie Sword of Trust, which was Lynn Shelton's last movie with me in it with her. He also created the series AP Bio, which is where Lynn met him and asked him if he wanted to collaborate. So we have an interesting entwined history through Lynn. So we get to talk about that a bit, but I never really, this is the first time I've ever really talked to him for any amount of time, but it turned out good. Look, you guys, something's got to give. I know right now I sound kind of chipper, but the bottom has fallen out a little bit. And I'm a guy who talks about mental health a lot, but I can feel it.

I can feel the bottom getting a little soft, whatever that means. It's like the floor is a little shaky on the foundation of psychic me. I do know that a few days ago when I drove up the coast there to do those shows in Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo, there was a tremendous amount of relief, but that's just relief from the day-to-day of the house. It doesn't necessarily get you out from under everything, but I did notice something during the shows is I could feel the bottom of me. is I could feel the bottom of me. It's not depression, but it's a very thin veil. It's not a veil, is it?

It's a very thin, porous film, a metaphorical film between me and my emotions in the audience. You know, the veneer of the guy mark maron who lives on the comedy stage is very close to the skin of the actual mark maron so that uh that amazing song and dance man that you see on stage at my shows it's just behind it there's a raw throbbing ember of uh existential crisis but no but what happens is because of the material i'm doing which is very close to the bone and it's There's a raw throbbing ember of existential crisis. But no, but what happens is because of the material I'm doing, which is very close to the bone and it's very delicate in how close it is to to terror and panic and trauma and the world we're living in. I mean, that's exactly how I like to to do my comedy. But there were moments where I would feel like, you know, like, wow, one little tweak and this is just horrific. And I think that's a good sign.

But I was dipping in and out of that. I had to hold the line within me to keep it funny. And that feeling I couldn't quite identify. And then I was talking to uh to kit the the cat girl and i was like you know i i'm just not talking to my friends as much anymore i seem to have drifted from my buddy jerry from i mean you know i haven't spoken to tom in person in a while even sammy you know him and i are like you know not day to day anymore and like you know i'm starting you know dean and I are like, you know, not day to day anymore. And like, you know, I'm starting, you know, Dean and I are like sort of estranged. And it's just like all of a sudden I realized like, man, I'm not really talking to anybody, am I?

She goes, you sound depressed. I'm like, what? No, it's, you know, it's just, I just need the time, man. I just can't handle it. I can't, I don't know. And then I thought, maybe I am. Maybe I got a little bit of the depression going on. Maybe it's time to hit a meeting, as they say, or lock in with the therapist.

Figure it out. What is it? What's gnawing at me? I don't think it's chemical. I've known myself long enough to know that I don't experience chemical depression. It's not a biological thing. A lot going on. Weight of the world and whatnot.

Weight of the life. And look, mine is, I have less weight than most people. And I guess I'm shredding on the periphery there. I can just see the, yeah, I just see it, the fabric coming unwoven. So I got to work that through and I'm heading out. I'm going to be doing these shows tonight, tomorrow and Saturday. And they're going to be life or death in some way. Not really death, but you know, when your sense of sanity or your sense of being grounded or your ability to fight off the darkness, that becomes a real battle on stage for me. And that's honestly the way I like it.

I would hate to think that all this is just preparation. I guess that's possible. I don't think that's the deal. I think what the deal is, is not unlike other times I felt this way, I've got to put some new stuff in my head. I've got to get out of my head. I think what the deal is, is not unlike other times I felt this way. I've got to put some new stuff in my head. I've got to get out of my head. I can't generate the happy in my head. I can't generate the wellbeing. I can't generate the peace of mind. It doesn't all come from within. It has to come from outside. Mostly I just generate anxiety. The call is coming from inside the house. So I got to go look at more art. I got to take in some stuff.

I got to listen to some music. I got to play some music. I got to talk to the people. I got to feel connected to a world of humanity, of creativity, of people who are doing things proactively, not the flaming garbage that flies out of my device. I'll be okay, man.

We're going to be okay, right? I said to the dying world. So, Mike O'Brien, good guy, funny guy, just did a show with him at the dynasty typewriter and uh he's not really here promoting much i mean you can go watch ap bio you can see this stuff he's worked with tim robinson done the snl stuff and he's actually if you want to see him perform this worked out he's going to be at the Club TG in Atwater Village tonight,

Thursday, 8 p.m. And this is me talking to Mike O'Brien. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

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get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. so wait mike o'brien look at that i'm doing like a thing where i say your name yeah that means we're in it sure why i never do that that's something you do on live radio wait to remind people coming back from a break right right talking to michael michael bryan today here in studio so what are you doing i did i did a stand-up show with you the other night yeah that was fun but do you do that all the time uh i do it a good amount not as much as um you are a lot of our stand-up friends but uh i try to go up once or twice a week so i'm working towards an hour with that for what to tour or do a special like i mean are you a stand-up by nature well i came up through sketch and improv as you you saw, there was a sketchy beginning. I was excited to hear your take. For the listeners, Maren seemed lightly annoyed to be brought out kind of at the end of a sketch.

I don't mind. Couldn't tell if it was over. Right. Yeah, yeah. Am I part of it now? Am I part of this sketch? I think I've grown to sort of honor people's expectations around my weird dismay around sketches. But it was fine.

Yeah. So when did you start doing stand-up, though? Well, when I moved to New York. So I did Chicago improv for like nine years, basically my 20s. And then. We got to go back now. We got to start the whole thing. We got to come up through it all. That might be All you need. No, I think it's important. I think because like what people probably don't know is that or maybe they do is that you wrote that you wrote the outlining script thing with Lynn for sort of trust. Yes. And that was the first time I think I knew of you or or, you know, you know, I didn't really know your stuff or where you were coming from or anything about you.

I just knew that you were writing this thing. She had chosen you to write this thing. I'm like, who's this guy? Because that was before we were able to really be out with our feelings for each other. So anytime there's another man involved i was like what's his what's his name that's a hundred percent the vibe i got when we pitched it to you we went to some coffee shop and she's like it's gonna be great um we're gonna pitch it to mark and and he's gonna love it and she gave like like a 20 to 30 minute description of the whole plot.

And you were just kind of staring at both of us and she was done. And you said, and that's it. And I think we all shook hands and yeah, you were like, who's this guy. And I didn't understand the energy at the time, other than I did think the plot needed more touch ups,

but I didn't, I didn't know there was a male lion squaring up. That's always sad when only one guy knows that. Right. And the other guy's like, what's this guy's problem? Is he all right, this guy? He's chewing really hard. Where was that? How come my memory's going? Is he all right, this guy? He's chewing really hard. Where was that? How come my memory's going?

How's your memory? Where do we do it? Mine's medium. It was supposed to be near your house. It was like a corner coffee shop, bakery type place. Over by Highland Park House? Yeah. Oh, maybe Cafe de Leche, probably?

I think so, yeah. Down on York? Yeah, it was on York. Oh. But yeah, so how did she find you how did you know lynn so i had a a show i was running called ap bio and well yeah i knew that yeah so she was brought in as a director probably broadway video or someone knew of her i didn't know she direct one so she directed two um but yeah after the first one we were sitting in video village and she was just

like um do you improvise do you do you do you write do you do like and you could see in her brain she was like this is who i'll get to co-write a mark movie and it was that from the beginning she was like um you know i think mark could be the lead. I'm like, let's leave it open still. Who needs that lion? That guy's nothing but trouble. I barely know him. But he seems cranky. Yeah. Well, the backstory was we'd been writing this script together for years.

It was ongoing. And it wasn't getting done. And she just really wanted to make a movie with me. And that was the other thing. So she brings you in to kind of, and I'm like, we're doing our thing. And that thing's still not finished. Wait, is this a confrontation WTF? I didn't know this was like the Mencia one or whatever.

I didn't think it was going to turn out that way, but I just want to know what the fuck were you guys? Finally having it out. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like what really happened? No, but she wanted to make the movie about me, and she chose you because she thought you were funny. And I got to be honest with you, the ending of that movie always annoyed me. Yeah.

Yeah, a little bit. That was what you were expressing that time. For sure, that's not been hidden. But, yeah what is it you i mean spoilers but uh yeah you were uh it's kind of fizzled out yeah well it had the you and her characters had a nice resolve oh yeah well that was like you know that that should have been a whole movie in and of itself right i thought the movie was really fun and it was funny but i i just personally felt it was a little bizarre and unsatisfying resolution. I had that feeling, too.

And there was some parts of me that were like, you know, she just wanted it to be funny mostly a lot. And I was like, I think we're at the expense of the plot a little bit because she was like, there should be this torture room running thing. And that didn't feel as grounded, even though, you know, back at all was so funny and everything. But but the story wise of wrapping up that. Yeah. The plot of the sword itself did feel. And to her credit, she as I would say that kind of stuff, she was like, we're going we're moving. This is like everything with her was like, we're making this movie.

You're overthinking it. That's what it is. It's going to be great. It's going to be so funny. And that's kind of like her debate. She gets things done. Yeah. Yeah.

And she commits to things. And then, you know, that was and that was that. But I had a great time with it. And it was fun. And you had your little appearance in it. Yeah. And then we became sort of we knew of each other then after that. But you don't, where'd you come from?

I grew up in a tiny town in Michigan. Near Detroit? Like an hour and a half south. That's not near. No, not near anything really. There's like a half hour of cornfields around. How'd you get out? What'd you, why were you there?

What was your family? What was it? My family is South south side irish chicago people my dad took a job in toledo and my mom like got lost and saw how she liked or something is this story so okay we ended up in the middle of nowhere kind of and then it's closer to chicago uh no the the town is uh closest to toledo basically but not not close to anything, really. Yeah. But I moved to Chicago in my 20s.

Were there a lot of Irish siblings? Yeah, youngest of four. I think their goal was seven. Yeah. How are the other ones doing? They're great. They've made a lot of Irish kids, and all my cousins have made a ton of kids. Really? Yeah, it's just kids, but they're great. They've made a lot of Irish kids and all my cousins have made a ton of kids. Really?

Yeah, it's just kids, but they're great. My older sister, Megan, was just here with her 12 and 11 year old, which are really funny ages. I've just had on my mind because two nights ago, I went for a one-on-one walk with the 12 year old and he started going like, we don't really know why we're here, here, right? And I was like, whoa. He's like, and we all die. I know that and I get that. And I could die any moment, right?

And I was like, I suppose so, yeah. It was this heavy. He cornered you, huh? Yeah. Out of nowhere, blindsided you with the big questions. The biggest. And yeah, is there any point to any of this? I was like, well, it might be just about being nice to other people. And he's like, but then why that? To what end? And I was

like, I don't have, yeah, maybe not. Wow. Where did this end up? Is he a happy kid? Yeah. He was pretty, he was just like thinking about it all. And we ended up continuing it with my sister when we got back from the dog walk and we didn't realize his younger sister, my niece, was kind of listening from the other room. Yeah. And was getting traumatized of the constant, like, we all could die any second. Like, you're maybe ready for that or not at 12 and 11. Sure. So, where did it end up?

On an okay note? How did your sister handle it? She was getting really into, and this also made me think of the lynn stuff of like are we as a society good at handling death yeah um because i thought there was um with lynn there was um zoom memorials hosted by michaela watkins and her husband that were really nice and helpful right away it. It was like a Shiva almost. Right. It was heavy though because I was like so traumatized.

Yeah, you were in the thick of it in a way that must have been different. Everyone else was sort of like, we miss one. And I'm like, her car's in my house. Yeah.

I still have her, her hat up, you know, it was like, it's a lot of stuff. But yeah, I just kept, well, I'm talking about it on stage a bit and I just talk about

how I got very exhausted from crying in front of strangers. Yeah. You know, because it's just, that's what you do. Yeah. And I don't know that I've ever experienced anybody in that type of grief before. Maybe I have, but like, there's no, how do you do that?

You know, I don't remember seeing it. I tried to discuss it on stage about how culturally i don't i don't remember seeing it i tried to you know discuss it on stage about how culturally we don't have really a mechanism but i i guess religion has them you know uh you know how how how to process what to do steps to take but uh how any individual deals with it there's no way to deal with it it's just going to keep coming yeah but i guess if there's trauma eventually you have to resolve that yeah and the like what we were talking about that night was like the more buddhist philosophy is like embracing it and you're happy about this next stage and i'm like that's hard to get to from where we're raised and everything where it's um but i guess that's

the goal where you're like oh my god what a great thing. One of my favorite people died. How did the kid take that? Did she lay that on the kid? The Buddhist? Yeah. Get excited. It's coming. Yeah.

It's going to be great news for you. He kind of said, I think I could. I don't think I'm that scared of my own, which especially when you're 12. Sure, sure. He said, but I think I'd still have a lot of trouble with like my family dying. And we're like, yeah, that's all right. Well, there is like the one thing about having it as close as it was with Lynn and is, is that there is something, you know, painfully human about it. And there is something permanent about it.

And there is something, you know, almost comforting when you're around it like that where you realize like well that's just gonna happen and then that's the eternal nature of it is that we all end up gone forever really yeah and i guess it's okay but it's inevitable i mean i i tried it's made me sort of cynical about sort of my reaction to it. It's like, yeah, okay, that guy died. It's, yeah, it's sad. The absence is real, but get ready. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like online culture also has got bad language for it.

It's like always so sad. Even with like a 98-year-old, you're like, too soon, rip from us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These phrases that are, you do wish that they could. Thoughts and prayers. Right, right. Too soon. Yeah.

You know, online you can't, that's not, everything gets processed in a day as well. Yeah, the world got a little less happy today. And you're like, well, I hope not. Was it all hinging on bob saget the whole thing that was it that was the load bearing so in michigan where are you like uh are you exposed to funny things and like are you a high school funny person i think so i i my older siblings and parents are funny and and we you know watched a lot of comedy and talked about a lot not never the concept of doing it was never a thing

when you grow up i know i never thought about it no where did you grow up again albuquerque i mean i knew people did comedy but i didn't know that there was a process. I think I thought they just arrived fully baked. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. There's never talk of that. Yeah.

I think in high school it was like a defense mechanism because, you know, girls weren't happening. So I was like, well, I'll be so weird that it'll look like I wasn't trying. Yeah. Yeah. That's why people are always- Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. I'm alone on purpose. Exactly. No why people are on purpose yeah yeah i'm alone on purpose exactly so no one likes me on purpose i had like a funny helmet i drove to school with and stuff and oh you're a helmet guy yeah i went helmet on purpose helmet yeah not yeah yeah like a baby with a soft spot in their skull but i was 16 and and then you know you know, you're like, what kind of helmet? Like a Nazi helmet? No, Mark, you're not kidding me. Gotcha interview. It was just a white, it looked like a half a ping pong ball.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, whatever that is. Yeah, I had one of those to ride my minibike. My dad had bought a helmet. It's not the whole head helmet. It's just a skull top helmet. Right. With the ear flaps that kind of wrap. There's a's a chin strap yeah there's a chin strap exactly did you ride

a bike no that was like in my car so that's you know so then my buddies are going that's why he's not making out with girls right and left is he's he's too quirky yeah he's got a helmet on and then yeah just had heard like you know uh, enough Chris Farley and Bill Murray type references to Second City that I moved there and my sister and I signed up for those classes. Did you go to college? Yeah, went to Michigan. That's a good college. Yeah. University of Michigan?

Yeah. Isn't that the good one? It's, in my opinion, it's the good one for sure. Or is there another one? Is there Michigan State my opinion, it's the good one for sure. Or is there another one? Is there Michigan State or something? There's also Michigan State, yeah. But one of them is like supposedly like a, I remember being talked about like it was a good school.

It's a good public school, yeah. So what'd you do in college? I was on the crew team. I had a- In the boat? Yeah. With the helmet? I left the helmet at home.

That would have been good because the girls still weren't happening. Really? Crew didn't get you girls either? No. Were you good at it? I was medium. I had a comedy newspaper. That also didn't get me girls, but it got me excited about writing comedy.

You came up with it or was it an existing thing like the lampoon where you people came through it it was um inspired by lampoon and onion but it was a new new thing you did it yeah you took the initiative that's right editor-in-chief editor-in-chief and had a bunch of rowing buddies writing for none of who aspire to be comedians or writers it was a it was not the lampoon Onion, but it was fun. And it got me backstage at Norm. He toured right after he got fired from SNL. Norm MacDonald? Norm MacDonald. And I had a press pass because of this, so I could go meet him.

It was the first stand-up show. Sure. At college. Yeah. Yeah. And you met Norm? Yeah. Were you buddies with him?

I knew him. I mean, I don't know if we were buddies. I'm not sure who my buddies are. We're peers. He was Norm? Yeah. Were you buddies with him? I knew him. I mean, I don't know if we were buddies. I'm not sure who my buddies are. We're peers. He was not an enemy. And I've interviewed him and we were friendly. Yeah. Yeah.

So what happened when you met him? How was it? Did it change your life? No. It was probably a good intro of all the famous meetings that happened. He was nice, but we immediately didn't have anything to talk about and yeah um it was awkward he's good at awkward it was it was a little awkward there's a weird thing where he was sitting eating like a fruit plate yeah and then in a kind of long

thin room and all the press was standing so far away and then he was just alone in this chair like 20 feet from us like a bunch of college press kids were just scared to walk up to him and talk and yeah so we kind of sat and watched him and he'd make an occasional comment it was weird um but who established that was the way it was supposed to be was everyone just nervous and standing away i think so yeah i wouldn't call him an inviting guy necessarily no hey yeah Hey. Eh. Yeah. Eh. That was your first comedy experience.

That was my first stand-up comedy, and I was blown away. It was so funny. He seemed like he was doing, I now know these terms, like a half hour of his material, and then maybe a half hour of riffing. Oh, yeah? Which- Q&A stuff, or just off- He would just say what else what else

going on and someone would yell of course like oj and he's like yeah yeah yeah but what else and then finally got to something about having sex with pigs and he was excited about that and riffed on that for like 15 minutes and i was yeah mind-blowing i was like he's making this up it probably was very medium right right yeah but. Yeah. But he's so funny. So that was great. Well, yeah, let's jump back to who are your buddies? Like if you had to make a list. Of me?

Yeah. Your comedy buddies. Well, you know, there are guys I started with. There are guys that, you know, I talk to now, you know, but most of the time it feels like a community, like a peer group. Like I don't hang out with many people. And lately I hang out with even less. I don't even know why. Because I think stand-ups are solitary beings.

You know, we're all kind of hang out. You know, my social life, part of it is going to the comedy store and saying hi to everybody and talking in the green room and stuff. But outside of that and outside of being on stage or touring with somebody, I don't hang out with many of them. But I consider I enjoy the company of a lot of people, but I don't spend that much time with them. I was pretty good friends with Al Madrigal, but he seemed to have gotten busy. And then Dino and I were friends for a while,

but that seems to have gotten strained but i always go when i go to the store i like seeing jeselnik i like seeing you know uh little esther esther pavitsky's touring with me now a bit and they're all around and i consider them all friends and i think some of them would show up for me if i needed them too you know yeah i don't i don't hang out with people that much. Yeah. And you hire movers now. You don't need them for that. No, I actually moved everything myself. My friend Ryan Singer, who's a comic, he helped me out with that. But I moved into this house one carload at a time over several months.

I did that too. At the end, I had movers do couches and dressers. But I did one carload a night after work for a while. And it's kind of satisfying. It is because you can really go through your stuff. You can go through it twice. Yeah. Like once it gets here and once you make decisions there too.

Yeah. And it makes you get rid of more too. Sure. Yeah. I don't know why we're holding on to anything getting back to death. I saw what happened after you die. Right. It's like, to death you know like i i don't you know i saw what happened you know after you die right now where you know it's like who wants this yeah i don't know you were responsible for a bunch of lynn stuff i feel like you were saying well sure i mean i was kind of i don't know if i was responsible for it but i had it i had access

to everything and it was covid so something needed to happen right uh eventually friends of hers got involved uh with the house but i had a lot of stuff here and I had her car here. And it's just, you know, it's kind of leveling that that whole thing as to people want keepsakes and they want memories. So there were there was there was a dispersal of stuff to certain people. And I'm sure her her ex-husband and her son got a lot of stuff. I don't know where a lot of it went. I didn't have relationships with those people. But I know I got a hat. That hat was essential. The hat and the green leather jacket and the red boots. I got them. Yeah, the big brimmed hat.

The black hat, yeah. I think there were several of those. There might be a few people that have the hat. The hat, yeah. So when do you start because like i i think i'm moving towards asking you questions about writing because uh you know i don't understand the reason i'm weird about sketch is like i watch it and i can appreciate it like i watch tim tim robinson yeah and i watch other stuff i watch snl but i don't i don't know

how that works you know i don't know that i could write one and have it seems like you just have to have confidence in something and because a lot of it doesn't really necessarily make sense or even have any kind of closure to it right there's a new way of writing it seems yeah um tim's a close friend and and you funny in that show. It was really fun. I hung out with them for a week or two writing, too. And they're just, we overlapped at SNL and Tim and Zach, Canon and everything. And they're uniquely good at it. But what is it? So you go, okay, so you get out of college and you go where?

You go to Chicago? You go to Second City immediately or what? Yeah. I mean, for classes and IO and all those, and, and just like slowly doing that for nine years every night. And I think that gives you like the training to write. Cause you're working with other people, right? Yeah. It's all, it's all collaborative. It's half improv. Then you're writing up the improv and all that. But what's funny is that most stand-up comedians I know have sketches in their stand-up. But they would never use that term. Right.

I don't want to spoil any of your new material. But the new thing you're doing that we were texting about is a sketch. I mean. I know. And I tried to add some beats to it because you suggested that. Yeah. And I think I know. And I don't like I tried to add some beats to it because you suggested that. Yeah. And I think I can. And I think there's a certain amount of confidence in the physicality that I think I can make the physicality funnier because I seem to do everything kind of in earnest.

You know, and people are like, well, this is kind of a serious performance. Yeah. He's really hurting. Like, yeah. But but I think there's a way to make it funnier. Like, I don't know necessarily how to be a caricature of myself on purpose i don't know how to execute i know how to do funny things with my body and i it's instinctual but i don't know how to do it on purpose all the time right does that make sense it's a repetition yeah i i get it

but so that's a sketch in that the reason you see it as a sketch because the punchline is physical and there is a place where it's ridiculous, but it can be repeated. You could just keep going with it. Yeah. And you're in it. You're acting out the situation as opposed to saying, wouldn't it be funny if and just talking about it. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

So and then as far as endings, I've just never thought almost any sketch ending is ever satisfying. So I actually appreciate when they're just like, that's the time that we did it. So is it just the nature of it to to just kind of like make funny? Yeah, I think to capture some moment or something. And then repeat the shit out of it. Yeah. Until it's depleted. Yeah. And then repeat the shit out of it? Yeah. Until it's depleted? Yeah. And then with no ending, just stop it?

And this is all feeling judgy, but yeah. You just do that stupid thing again, and then you walk away? You go get in an Uber? Yeah, pretty much. And I mean, that's where- Not judgy. I like Tim's show. And i like uh and i like uh uh tim and eric too i mean i like stuff where i know like there's something about the intersection of

mainstream and sketch that that gets a little overproduced so like when somebody like tim robinson does it and i'm pretty new to him, or even Tim and Eric, or even Eric Andre, even these guys that are sort of more punk rock driven, I can sort of appreciate it more because they're not beholden to a context. They're kind of creating a thing in whatever vacuum or whatever. Like Tim Robinson does a thing because his characters is all, you know, like my producer pointed out to me, he's going to bend reality to his ridiculous will.

Yeah. That is the engine of these sketches, right? So there is a consistency there. Yeah. And Tim and Eric were just multi-layered in their use of, you know, different types of media and weirdos and things like that. So I can appreciate that as sort of an art thing yeah but sometimes when i watch an snl

thing that's you know driven by celebrity impressions and stuff it's a little different yeah yeah and that's what um after enough time at snl i i was really craving like i'm like i i just want to see someone exist for more than three minutes like and get in because you can't quite it doesn't feel believable if you try to get into the um backstory or or really round out all four characters in a sketch it's got to just be a moment and uh yeah the type of thing that tim's great at of just one person put in one situation. You kind of get their vibe. His also, you kind of start to get his vibe. And so it's almost even though they're different characters.

I can't get a sense of like him as a person. Like I've talked to other people about him. Now you're the second person I've talked to about. But, you know, I always I expect he's some version of that guy but i don't think he is oh he's exactly that he's always screaming no he's the i mean he's very sweet and soft-spoken and uh a family guy and everything but yeah can you imagine him just uh at all times he's just bringing but just got to be part of them so when when you're doing Second City, are you working with people we know? I mean, what was your class?

Yeah. Tim Robinson and Sam Richardson were just a little younger than me. Tim Baltz from Righteous Gemstones was in my touring company. Which one's he? He's Edie's husband. Oh, yeah. He wants to be in on the family. Yeah.

He's funny. Yeah. He's really funny. Who else would you know? Laura Nash was on stage with me. She's in Superstore. Huh. And you went through the classes and then you were on the main stage? I went through the classes and they really weren't touching me for a long time.

The producers there didn't hire me. So I was at I.O. every night. And then after like eight years or something, I started touring for a year, main stage for a year, and then right to SNL writing. You did the tour for Second City? Just a little bit, yeah.

A little less than a year. Eight years? Yeah. As an improv guy? Yeah, and just getting more and more angry that Second City wouldn't touch me. My whole generation had gone through the stages was that that so that was the goal was to you know be validated yeah it's really hard to be in chicago and not have that you know almost every late night

talk turns to like who got hired late lately and right should they have. And then the whole town has one week a year that's absolutely brutal where Lorne comes to town and all of a sudden it just turns this kind of utopia up on its head. So it's not stand-up, so none of you guys are hanging out with stand-up. It's all sketch people. There was a small stand-up scene that I had friends in. Like Pete Holmes? small stand-up scene that um i had friends in and and it was like pete holmes yeah and hannibal and kumail and um tj miller were all doing it back when i was doing improv and they would they would do a little overlap and everything right but not a ton it was it was it's a heavily improv town and

so lauren comes to town yeah every year most most And, oh, man, I got to see both sides of it because, yeah, you're mad that the theater owner won't put you up for five minutes in front of Lorne. Fuck, I know that thing. They did that with the stand-ups when you were doing, like, Letterman showcases and shit. Oh, yeah. So, like, who got chosen? How are you going to get on that showcase?

Yeah. And then who went way too long? There's famous. She went 16 minutes on the Lorne night. All the time, yeah. Yeah. And then who went way too long? There's famous. She went 16 minutes on the lower night. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a similar world with that. And how many did you go through? I mean, I would do it most years. And then the weirdest part was after my first year of writing. Yeah.

Lauren brought me on as a judge, all my current friends. And he brought you back to Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. Lauren brought me on as a judge, all my current friends. He brought you back to Chicago? Yeah, yeah. Just you? Well, he had other producers and head writers and stuff, but they all went out here to Groundlings and everything, but he only brought me for the Chicago leg to be like, what's this person like?

What's that person like? You rat. And I had to be a rat i had to turn bitch man it was uh no it was crazy and like my brother-in-law got hired um my girlfriend at the time was flown out it was a very so wait your your brother-in-law's in show business yeah he's a he's a writer um that's your sister's husband yeah so. So, okay. So, how did you get hired for SNL? How did that happen? How many attempts? What was the story?

I had, he, one of these Lauren to Chicago visits had me flown out in 2004. Yeah. And it was like the Lonely Island guys and Hader and all those guys got hired. They were all out in Chicago? No, no. They were being flown out from here or whatever. But I'm saying that was that class that I. So it was Sandberg and Hayter.

Yeah. Yeah. And I did not get hired. And so definitely imagine that was it for me. And it was a full four years later that I got flown again from a Chicago visit and hired as a writer that time. Four years? Yeah. And are you just getting bitter and

drunk and what are you doing pretty bitter i was putting together a one-man show about what to move to la just different sketch characters and i because i was like so chicago's done for me second city's not gonna touch me and uh that's probably as close as i mean get to snl and um and then that one-man show started getting things for me, actually, in a weird way that like- Out here? No, just in Chicago. That got me to Second City main stage.

And it was pieces from that that got me flowing out again to SNL and hired as a writer. It was just characters? Yeah. Huh. See, like, that's the other thing about sketch and about the nature of it. It's like, I don't know.

Like, I don't know how to do, i don't know how to remove myself from the equation like have you ever done anything where you like expose yourself mike on stage i'm not talking about your personal life have you put it on the line, Mike? Have the lights come up and you've been scared, Mike? I don't know. I feel trapped. I want this part edited out.

Do we get to pick the parts that get edited? Yeah, if you really need to. No. Yeah, I mean, it's like I can't do impressions or accents or anything. So all my characters are me. Yeah. But what if I was- Oh, you invented them. They're not impressions.

Right. And I'm saying they also talk like this. I don't have Bill Hader's range or something, so they all kind of talk and walk like me, but one of them, this one's obsessed with this small thing, and that one's- Oh, okay. They're just slightly different. You don't do any voice? No, I used to kind of do a Chicago accent,

but people, an understudy came into my show, Second City show where I was doing that. And he was like, so you're doing Mayor Daly, but with no accent, right? And I was like, I'm trying, man. I don't know. All right, so you actually do show yourself because you can't do any of the other things.

Yeah, what do you mean show myself? Well, I don't know. I assume, not unlike we just said about Tim Robinson, that even if you're at the center of every sketch, who is that guy? The skill set is there. You've created a character. But I find that I guess my journey as a performer was to figure out who i was yeah so it was never you know i was never like i'm gonna put on a different hat today you know what i mean i'm like i don't even know what hat i'm supposed to be wearing is

me yeah but i think that's the same propulsion for people to do characters as well you know like i don't know who i am i'm gonna be all be all these different people. Yeah. Yeah, no, I see what you're saying. And, yeah, I don't have the skill set to not do myself. So, yeah, they're all... Yeah, yeah. If you watched five of them, you're like, oh, I get what that actual guy is like pretty much. And I do a lot like the bit from the other night

where I'm acting like I'm talking as myself, but I'm kind of messing with the audience or something. Right, yeah, yeah. And that's a version of how I might joke around if I was with any of them in real life. So, um, yeah,

I think, I think it can be, and there's, in that show, there was a monologue about, uh, my, uh,

best friend having cancer and that was real, but there were jokes around it. He had cancer? She did. Yeah. She did. Yeah. She, um, twice, but she beat it both times, my friend Shelly. So that was vulnerable.

I mean, that's a big Second City thing is that may be, with no judgment, a little different than the Groundlings. The Groundlings, I feel like they really are great at like get a character and lose yourself in it. Yeah. And buy expensive wigs yeah they're obsessed with the quality of the wigs apparently but um then uh and second city is like be vulnerable at some point and so in its worst form something we make fun of is that three quarters of the way through the sketch you you uh have to go like by the way mom i i love you and i have cancer and you're like wait that didn't feel like it flowed with the rest of it.

But you get points for like, that's a heart-wrenching but hilarious. But I always got hung up on that. Like, I always had this envy of this idea that, like, Second City would find the essence of somebody's sense of humor. Like, you know, that there was an authenticity to Farley. There was an authenticity to some of the, I'm slipping people's names in my head, that they become almost an archetypal comedic,

Comedia Della Arte person. Yeah. And that Second City somehow facilitated that. Yeah, Rachel Dratch, when I first moved to town, was like that. And yeah, they have like a and I think a thing I can't wrap my head around is like how much of it is you because she's another one who she's really funny and um a big and goofy in her on stage and very quiet and sweet

and grounded on stage and is it and sweet and grounded on stage. And is it just like maybe it's messing with what you wish you could be? Sure. Or it's just something you let out occasionally. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it must have that kind of thing.

Like what if I could just use Tim Shogan. He is very polite and sweet to everybody. And he's like, what if I could just yell at a waiter for five minutes, you know, whatever. And then you get to do it. And then you're like, now I don't need to do it. Yeah. Well, I mean, because I'm just thinking about this because I have to do,

I have to act in something, you know. And I have a sense of what the guy should be. But, you know, the school of thought I come from is that, you know, you show up for it and it will come. You know, it's on the page and you kind of, you can riff or whatever, but it's on the page. So you'll find that within you. But it seems to me that some people just automatically do hilarious characters, even in their acting that seem authentic. And I, you know, I'd like to do that, but I don't know how to manufacture that necessarily because it's not my skillset. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then you,

you become, um, Danielewis eventually or something. I have a- Well, I'd rather that. I mean, that seems like an actor-y thing, I guess. But there are some people that are just so naturally funny that even when they're being serious, they're funny. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know how to explain it. But I'm self-conscious about doing this role because I have an idea of how it could be funny. I just want to be able to execute it without being self-conscious about doing this role because I want, I have an idea of how it could be funny. I just want to be able to execute it without being self-conscious. So I guess that's what sketch gets you is you can get off of the self-consciousness around characters. Like I'm not self-conscious at all about stand-up. I'll go up there and do whatever. I'm not afraid of that at all.

But if I had to sort of be like, I'm here. You know, I'd be like, is that going okay? Did I do it good? Did I lose the good? Yeah. Did I lose the accent there for a minute? Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely a, I think what's hard is trying to figure out how to harness what is funny about you. Yeah. And like an example is that sometimes when I get really frustrated or mad, it's the funniest thing in the world to friends or coworkers.

Right. Yeah. That's always a great feeling. The impotence of your anger. Exactly. It's comedy gold. Yeah. But I couldn't write and do that.

I don't quite have. Right. And I'm frankly kind of glad that it sometimes makes people laugh, but I can't even like, I know how to push the buttons even in that moment. Because it's got to be when I'm genuinely. Sure. Really frustrated and I'm like trying to, one time was trying to pick up my bike and throw it down in the grass and I wasn't doing it well. And it was the funniest thing in the world to people, but I wasn't able to laugh for like a month. Yeah.

I think I'm funniest when someone hands me my ass, which is not a great feeling. But like when I get just sort of like called out on stage or like if an audience upstages me during crowd work or something, that's the funniest thing is to see me try to pretend like nothing bad just happened. But how do you make that happen over and over again? Yeah, I had one that night later on um the night that i was on the show yeah where i said um okay i'm gonna be using this guy in the front row as an example of um what uh what we're gonna act out a thing and and sir i don't know you at all you're not a plant

we don't know each other correct and he said well yeah i know you from the dog park and that was like we'd only talked like once maybe and me stumbling around that i'm like well that uh it was like some of the biggest laughs of it and i'm like i can't have that in a you can't capture that in a bottle you can't that that that you it's like the capturing the lightning of embarrassment right in a bottle and light irritation because i was like yeah ha ha ha, ha, ha, everybody. I'm excited about the bid I wrote. And they're all like, no, we like that this is a mess now. They like the mess.

All right. So you get on SNL as a writer. So the fourth time, how does it, why then? What happened? Different? Warren just decided? You were familiar to him at this point? Yeah, I think I figured out a lot more of what I do well.

Yeah. What we're talking about is being hard, but I was definitely, compared to four years earlier, I definitely knew more what. How to write? How to write, how to move around what what's funny what what kind of is um cleaner has a more clear hook right it was my i'd be humiliated to see my 2004 um new york audition in studio i i was all over the place i think i was literally improvising at one point and like

tina was like had to give a suggestion or something and they must be like get this guy on a plane out of here right now um and it was much tighter the next time around i think and so yeah um got hired seth was the head writer and moved out it's all very um i'm sure you've heard all these you know frantic you're trying to find a place and all that and who was the cast i was sharing an office with Sudeikis and then Hader, the Lonely Island guys, Kristen. It was a great cast. Oh, wow, yeah.

Kenan, obviously. Yeah. So really, really cool cast to come in on and watch. And then, yeah, it was all the same ups and downs that everybody has. There are so many friends. There seemed to be waves of chicago people that started to happen around then so i had all these close friends including shelly who i was talking about who had had cancer were um all hired as writers and cast

my friend paul britain yeah then tim robinson and all these guys and um uh it's just tough it's it's tough to uh because because everyone comes in and struggles. Even if they end up finding their footing later, they're unhappy. What is tough? To figure out how to get your stuff on? To figure out who to write with? To connect yourself to one of the stars?

Or, you know, how does it all sort of play out? It's all that. And there's a lot of jealousy. I can't believe they're doing this one and not that one. And then there's a lot of like seeing your friends getyear writer and I have a friend who comes in as a first-year writer or something. Because the rules change every week. It's at the – How so? Well, like what's funny and what gets a huge laugh on Wednesdays just kind of keeps evolving. And then there's other weird rules like don't sit there.

That's so-and-so's seat. But then a month later, that wouldn't matter. And if you read a piece. Who decides these things? I don't know. They're there when you come in. They're all kind of handed down and make you feel unmoored. And like, oh, I tried this thing and it didn't work.

When can I bring it back? Yeah. And those people are like, you can bring it back in four shows, although that's a British host, so don't, the math that people, and that I thought I had, I gave so much advice to people that I'm later on like,

I hope I at least wasn't helping lead to their firing. Like what? I mean, like this not coming down from Seth, it's just like in the grain of the community, these like weird things. Yeah. Are they like folk tales? Yeah. They're probably something that someone got in trouble for at one point. Yeah.

So everybody's sort of in mild fear of Lauren? Because like I get, you know, look, I get mixed messages. There are certain people that love Lauren and won't say anything negative negative about him and then there are other people that say like well you know you got to work hard but then you know occasionally there's somebody like you know i was miserable and i was terrified and yeah yeah i but you were there a long time i was there a long time so i i got to really enjoy the place other than the the suffering around me, I got to a point where I was like, this is fun. And I like Lorne, and I think he likes me. And we can make small talk.

But there's always suffering around you. But you're watching, yeah. People losing? Watching people get comedically shot in the head and people losing it and all that that is is really hard to be around and and deeply deeply unhappy wow it's like the opening of sergeant ryan or private ryan this is a beach it's omaha beach yeah it really was you're like that guy was right next to me uh seemed like a good guy too uh but yeah that um that was lucky. And it's like, as soon as I got to where I was like,

I I've got a groove, I know this place, I don't feel stress. I don't feel the need to stay up all night and all these things that you can't quite tell if you're supposed to do. Then I was lucky enough to be put in the cast. And then it's like, I was back to having anxiety and having it.

Oh my God. How long did that last? One season. Your choice? No. in the cast and then it's like i was back to having anxiety and having it oh my god how long did that last one season your choice no no it's someone else's um and then there was another season after that did you do a lot of sketches i did as a performer uh medium for the first year they they did that where i feel like they hired five dudes because there was a big male exodus yeah and they hired five guys knowing they really needed like two right right and they figured you're in the building yeah and yeah i was around throw it in there and then they said no and there was a weird hybrid last year where i could do videos and be on camera and my short films because yeah those had some success,

but not, they were like getting them out of the light. I never got comfortable with the live cue cards and hitting marks and never like was truly relaxed in camera. It's always impressive when someone can do that in their first year, but I think normally it takes a couple. So, okay. So that only lasts for a year and then you go back to writing? Yeah. This hybrid where I would read one video a couple. So, okay, so that only lasts for a year, and then you go back to writing? Yeah, this hybrid where I would read one video a week on Wednesday that I'm in, and then otherwise write for other people. And that was kind of an unhappy year. I just got a couple things on that I was in,

and wasn't writing as much with other people or collaborating. I had a solo office at that point. Sudeikis was gone, and I was just kind of alone in that solo office and and that's where i was like i gotta get an exit plan and i wrote uh the pilot that became ap bio and another one um but that was all fueled by like just kind of alone in an office which is a weird thing in a building of funny people you know yeah um but because it seems like most people are paired up or there's three people or you know everyone's up each other's ass writing things yeah and obviously did you feel like you were kind of on your way out was it exile i was self-exiled i just couldn't like the new young people that were like hey man you're funny you should let's do something i was

like so i i write a thing and then you get to say it and be funny on tv like i got to last year oh so the performing thing kind of stuck in your craw. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was really bummed to be taken out of that. I was I had been, you know, wanting a couple of seasons to see if I could try like everybody. But yeah, so I was cranky. And by the time that season was winding down, I went to Lauren. I was like, I think I got to get out of here and move to L.A. And he's like, yeah, that's fine. There's some times where he really fights people. He was like, I think I got to get out of here and move to L.A. And he's like, yeah, that's fine. There's some times where he really fights people.

And he's like, you know, you have children. L.A. is going to eat you up. But I think either he was being sympathetic to the fact that I was hating not being in the cast anymore. Or he was like, I think we've gotten all the sketches we're going to get out of this guy. Oh, yeah? And do you still have a relationship with him? A little bit. Because he was, you know, an EP EP on AP Bio so we would talk. How does that work? Was that something in your contract? You asked him? I asked him and Broadway

Video. I just thought that'd be... You pitched to them first? Help me get a sale. I think so, yeah. I must have. And AP Bio's based on something? It's kind of based on a couple of teachers I had that were eccentric. But the crux of the comedy originally was kind of that thing. I think you'll relate to that after a while of living in New York and then going back to the Midwest. while of living in new york and then going back to the midwest it was so funny to see especially having a lucky job like that and yeah you know flying on uh lauren's plane and and going to these restaurants all the time then you go back to the midwest and you're at applebee's and yeah

uh trying not to be like snobby about it and then but kind of coming to appreciate that that's also really fun and yeah um so the main character is a an east coast snob returning back to his midwest sort of thing and yeah and some originally some of the comedy was around that concept that was front of mind before we get on to like how that the struggle of that show like or like you know the you know it was one of those it was in my memory the first one that was like sort of there was fan outrage and trying to get you know get it back on the air and whatnot but like when you went out to chicago with lauren well you had been at snl for a year yeah and and he were just he brought you because he brought you there because he knew you

knew these people yeah yeah he was you know we we watched that's very calculating and odd yeah like you were going to give the lowdown i know and i've thought it i was like were you like you know that guy's got a little bit of a drinking problem no that's the thing i was like i don't want to be known as the one to kill anyone's career so yeah so i don't think i did what he needed i was just everyone that came up i was like yeah, yeah, they're great. Yeah. They're great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like that guy. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to, I wasn't in that case going to be a snitch about, like, they're not that funny. That tonight was the funniest I've ever seen them. That is it. So you gave him nothing.

So I gave him nothing. Did you tell the people in Chicago, like, when he went back to the hotel, I said nothing. I honored all you guys, man. Just threw nobody under the bus. Yeah. There was a kind of weird, cool thing where, so my best friend Shelly was, he'd flown her out before and everything. She was on Second City Mainstage and he was, I think in his mind already pretty close on hiring her. And so this was supposed to be to figure out who was going to get flown out to audition again. But we watched the Second City show

and she had a good show. And then we all go out to dinner at a place you had never gone when you were living there, Gibson's or whatever. Yeah. And we were like sitting down at the table and he said, Shelly's a good writer. And I was like, yeah.

And he's like, you can tell her she's hired. And like these other head writers and stuff sitting down, we're like, what just happened? Did he just quietly hire her? And Mike tells her. And so after that dinner, I found that cast and they were all out at the bar across from second city. And I was like hanging out with them knowing i got to hire her to this job and but had to i realized then i had to wait for everyone else to go home yeah so we were me and her and um you were kind of like no no no don't go don't don't just hang yeah hang a minute yeah and at like 2 a.m we uh me and another snarl writer john solomon were were like walking to her home. And I was like, if you want that job, you got it. And she was like, oh, thanks.

Yeah. And I'm like, no, you have it. You have. And she was like, this is a weird, mean joke. And didn't believe it till the next day. She had a Lorne meeting to make it official. But it was Chicago. Yeah.

Just like come have a drink before you see more shows. But it was a really nice thing that was surreal. He's like, go tell her she's hired to SNL. I'm like, I should go literally ride my bike at the time over to. He know you guys are best friends? Yeah. Oh, well, that's sweet. Yeah.

What a nice thing he gave you there and a job. Yeah. So what was the thing? AP Bio was at nbc yeah and you did two seasons of it that's right two two 13s and we had um were you running it yeah and we had a they didn't assign any older showrunner which was really nice yeah um and we had a um thursday 8 30 time slot which was so cool to me on nbc but we were getting housed by young sheldon and every friday morning i had to do a call numbers call with them that was brutal they were like you know what your show is like by people that don't all

watch it live but yeah um they had uh young sheldon had 8 million and you had 100,000 or whatever it was. And they're just so awkward, but it's like set up in their thing that they do these calls. So you're up against it directly? Yeah, it was the 830 CBS. I don't know who's watching television. Yeah, I mean, CBS,

their average age was like 68 or something. And that's why their numbers of live TV are good. Plus, I mean, not ripping on Young Sheldon, my friend's on that show, and it's probably really good. Yeah. I think he grows up to be Big Bang or whatever. But yeah, they have live TV viewers because it's older people. Everyone else is, even if you DVR it, it's not in those numbers. Right.

So you felt like you were tanking? No, I felt like we were doing our best and I felt like a lot of people liked it, but there was a constant reminder that you're not a hit. Right. And so, yeah, then it got canceled and partly due to Patton Oswalt, who was on the show's huge Internet following. He was like, so sad to see this go. I'm really bummed. And like all these younger people came out of the woodwork who were fans and had a little save AP bio thing that did happen.

So we were that then going to Peock because of that so you went to the streaming service but with full production of money yeah pretty much pretty close to the same money and everything and um um i i think the actors may not not have gotten a raise they would have gotten if we were on season three nbc but but not not bad and and then um um i i liked that a lot better. And all I wanted, the minimum I wanted was to make sure we got. Well, that's kind of where your audience is. With streaming, you're not beholden to live views, right?

Right. So it's judged differently. Yeah. Entirely. Completely. And yeah, I just, it felt like we got a little forced onto Peacock who were like creating their own thing. Yeah. And it's like, also the internet's mad,

so take this canceled NBC show. Yeah. And so getting renewed one more. Oh, you mean the infrastructure, the executive infrastructure of Peacock was sort of like, oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

They're throwing their garbage into our. Right, right. Yeah. Right, and Lorne is calling them and stuff and they're like fine fine we'll take that and so getting a fourth season was actually huge because that was the peacock execs who got forced on this had this force on them saying we like it enough for another season of it so the fourth season was on peacock yeah yeah and then they said okay that's enough and

were you done we we could have done one or two more. You know, it was all following one school year. And we didn't get to the end of school year and have the kids, like, go to prom and graduate and stuff. So that might have been cool. But doing 42 of them, it's just crazy. On sitcoms, characters don't change a ton. Because they don't want to. Yeah, they don't want to.

And I don't know. and they don't want to yeah they don't want to and i don't know it just uh i wouldn't have wanted to do a hundred or more uh maybe a little more than the 42 but i was happy with that i mean i did four seasons of my show and i had yeah but i had a force of change you like that like i knew and nobody watched my show but that's fine but. But I knew that what the goal of the traditional sitcom is to create this refillable thing where people don't change. And we did three seasons of that, and they weren't paying me enough to just keep repeating it. And I thought the jig was up anyways, and they weren't increasing our budget. So it wasn't even money that i wanted it's like we're not even going to get rewarded in a fourth season with money that would enable us to execute you know big you know a better show right so it's like fuck it so the fourth season i just threw a wrench in the whole thing and had

the character that was me relapse on drugs and it becomes a you know a rehab season so he does change yeah and it's it's almost a whole different show. And I was so happy I did that. Yeah. To the fanfare of nobody. So much more fun to write, though, once you get into it? Well, yeah, because then it's like, you know, then it's actually speculative, because that didn't happen to me.

And how does that really play out, you know, to get into that world? Yeah. As opposed to like, here's another, who's the podcast guest this time? You know, that kind of stuff. Right. But it was more interesting. It seemed actually more real than following my current life. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. Why was it more real if it was less? Okay. You know, a guy gets a big opportunity, relapses on drugs, ends up losing everything and living in a storage locker. And his friend gets him into rehab and he's got to rebuild to someplace. Yeah. But I end up in an entirely different place.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, it's, that sounds really freeing. We, I, it's, I'm curious what would have happened if we did an earth shattering change to the main character in that. But, um, I think we would have needed to. What we were doing more was that kind of, people always call it it like community but it's a lot of shows that do it where we're playing with the um genre messing with genres and stuff to mix things right so everything becomes like a show within a show right yeah and you're because

you're all of a sudden the writer's room is activated by everyone being like this is the this is the horror uh episode right and it's more exciting because otherwise it is like remember he's gonna be doing this and then that character always says that and well that's a weird thing i and i'm just thinking out loud now is that you know for something to work dramatically with an arc you know like a theater or movie or whatever the characters have to change right i mean that's sort of the rule whereas you know in sitcom the characters can to change, right? I mean, that's sort of the rule. Whereas, you know, in sitcom, the characters can never change. Yeah. Yeah, there's a great line in Some Simpsons

where near the end of a really wild one, Lisa says, but next week we'll be back to normal, right? And none of this will have affected anything permanently or something like that. And it's kind of true. You're like, you can push them and push them. Like the main character in AP Bio is kind of always learning a little lesson in how to be nicer and more part of the community in Toledo.

But he never, the next episode he starts out and he's like, I don't want to go to a backyard barbecue ever. And by the end he's like, backyard barbecues are okay. But somehow that lesson doesn't go into the next week. And that's just kind of, you're like, that feels like, it always felt scary. Like if we made him learn too many lessons, then you're done. You got to keep some comedic tension. So I'm trying to remember when we were, was that a sort of trust meeting?

Was Carrie Brownstein originally supposed to be in it? Yeah. And then she couldn't do it. remember when we were am i was that a sort of trust meeting was carrie brownstein the originally supposed to be in it yeah and then she couldn't do it right because i remember being at carrie brownstein's house yes sushi that's right and discussing it with her and lynn and you right yes and then and then that didn't happen so michaela who was in it was there but um yeah jillian bell came right became the character that carrie had been yeah yeah yeah so what do you what's on the drawing board man um i'm writing a a screenplay um i have a another pilot the other pilot i wrote when i was in my last year of SNL and trying to, um, get some things to come out to LA with, um, was about a character that,

uh, I've always pictured my friend Sam Richardson playing and he's gotten so busy lately that he, he said to me recently, is there any way that could not be a show that, that, that could be a, a feature movie?

And, um, cause then it's just like three weeks or whatever right as opposed to you commit to a show it's five months to ten years and yeah um and so that's a a fun weird challenge of this like 30 page thing trying to make it a hundred pages and yeah um that's what i'm doing now i've got the the little index cards all over the the my house and um uh reading a book about screenplays it's uh it's about sequences they're breaking it down into 10 to 15 minute chunks i think it's called sequences and um and that's easier for my brain than just act one act two act three it's

still three acts but they're in 10 to 15 minute chunks. It's good. And it's got 11 movies that it breaks it down for you. So I'll watch one of these. Now, do the people that write these screenplays, do they use this system or is this system retrofitted? I always wonder about the books. Yeah. Are the great screenplays guys who are like, you know, we did the 15 minute thing. The Godfather is all about the 15-minute thing. There's one, I don't know if you'd call it great, but Air Force One is a sequence-based script that apparently was written by a student of this guy.

The weird thing about the books, I feel like, is they're always referencing their one thing that got made and it's never the same. But they delivered one, man. They got one through. Yeah. But they delivered one, man. They got one through. Yeah. Yeah. Validates the whole system. And then they keep referencing it.

And it's like, as we learned on Doggy's Day Out, you deny. Right. Well, there was like when I was a kid,

it was the one, but it was a Sid Field book. Sid Fields. I think it was, I think, I think it was just called screenplay. Okay. Screenwriting. Sid Field's, I think it was just called Screenplay.

Okay. Or Screenwriting. Sid Field was the guy. What did he write? I don't know. Let's look it up. Because that was like, you know, you got to get the Sid Field book. Right.

And then it became some other book. There's another one. Save the Cat was when I was starting out. And that writer's movie is like Blank Check, I think it's called. Yeah. And it's all over that book. Yeah. It's just called Sid Field's Screenplay.

And this was the book. And I remember buying it, the foundations of screenwriting. There you go. Yeah. And I remember buying it and not reading it. Yeah. But then there's another book that Lynn had that she really liked. I don't know what that one's about.

It's about story. Okay. I can't remember. Have you ever written one? A screenplay? Yeah. I wrote one years ago, but not lately. I mean, I wrote some scripts for my show, but I haven't really executed.

I can't stand writing. I can't stand it. You mean that type of writing? Any writing. I hate it. i've written books i've written episodes of my show i write a thing every week that i send out to people right but my comedy really happens on stage i was gonna say you don't write you don't sit and write no it'd probably be better i would add more beats to that joke if i you know if i was

responsible and disciplined but i i need room for things to evolve and get ruined on stage on their own i can't commit to the as soon as I put it down on paper it's sort of like well that's done yeah so you don't you don't even have like a little messy note oh definitely definitely I mean I do all that kind of writing yeah but not a lot of that not sitting and typing you know here's no there's no math problem jokes yeah there's no like I've tried to do it just so I could look at it yeah but sometimes like when I transcribe my bits I'm like oh my god it's like a whole page of me rambling and then there's part of me that thinks like you can't be doing it right you've got to be

more efficient and then like do you though so like the writing thing kind of like i don't know it's probably some manifestation of my insecurity my process but, but whatever. Yeah. It's, it's gotten me, you know, into the solid mid-level of a show business. You know, it would, would I leap into the upper echelon if I was just more disciplined about my construction? Maybe. Maybe, or you, you might lose something that is like the, the, I feel like your vibe on stage is a little like you're working it out, which I imagine must be tricky when you're actually in the hundredth time of doing a joke, but.

I don't know, like it seems to be what's happening though, you know, because I just did two shows and two different shows and two different people said like, you know, it was like stream of consciousness, you know, and I'm like, it wasn't though. It's a list of eight things. Well, I mean, I'm working out the stuff right but i mean i'm not i but i did like i was at largo the other night i didn't do a lot of you know

riffing and and i guess i i don't know i've worked all very hard for it to look like that yeah like that is what i do but is it and is it is it uh am i am i working against myself because people think like well he's not clearly not done with it yet. I'm like, no, that's a style. Right, right. I heard that. The style is workshopping. Right, right. I heard the Strokes say that once in an interview, and I felt mad at first, and then I came around to it.

But they said, people compliment how messy our thing is. And we're like, we worked hard to get it to sound just the right messy and right i was like well that's not punk and cool but i get it now more than yeah they're talking about weird feedbacks and everything it's not just they don't just start shoving wires place and then play the show well i mean christopher lloyd was at the show last night in santa barbara he came with his wife and you know they were he was backstage i'm like hey and he's like oh you know like and i'm like how's it going he's like that was great he was just making stuff up you know my god yeah i guess it's like i didn't know what was gonna happen you know i see comics and you know what's good you know that seems like it's planned but you're not planned

he did he was a guest on AP Bio. Yeah. He was great. He's older now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because of time. But he had a thing where he kept being like, wouldn't it be funny if I wore sunglasses? And we were like, I think you're going to kind of look like an old blind man.

And he was supposed to be kind of a nemesis to the main character. We had this awkward dance where one after another of us was going to set because we had to talk to Christopher Lloyd about killing the sunglasses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And finally he's like, fine, fine. Let's just do the lines. So bummed when an actor doesn't get their big. But that was his big, I think my guy has sunglasses. And we're like, it's nighttime. That was part of it.

Yeah, yeah. So you seem blind. It's so weird how, you know, like Lynn used to talk me down a lot, too. Where I'm like, I'm going to do it like this. And she's like, well, I think, oh, no. I'm doing it like this. And then, like, eventually, like, she'd just allow it until you're sort of like, all right, what do you want me to do? Okay, I'll do it.

And then would she use yours, though? No. I thought it was going to gonna be like and sure enough in the edit she saw what i had no no she she indulged me i pouted and then i did it like she wanted to and it was better i asked i was talking to dan back at all about that shoot and i said um um i know it was like a hundred degrees and i bet i. I bet, you know, you guys were having... I was so bitchy. He said it was the opposite.

He said he was really bitchy and that you at one point were like, hey, come on, man, it's a pretty fun thing. We got this great director. She makes this stuff look good. Let's not bitch. And I was like, Maren gave you that pep talk?

Do you remember that? Well, yeah, because like, you know, his crankiness is, it's not contained that well. You know, when I'm being cranky, you know, I'm just a little off-putting, but like he could, you know, he's got range. His crankiness. Yeah, it's going to pollute everything if we don't wrangle it we gotta wrangle it yeah because he's like a real he's like classic chicago angry guy yeah you know and you just you don't want that on you unleash that on a set who the fuck knows what's gonna happen yeah it knows no bounds it's yeah he was famous for having punched a wall and broken his hand and

quit uh second city all in one big flurry but um well he got sober too but i think it was just it was hot but by that point i think i'd had a different you know point of view on it yeah like i'm i'm difficult with process because you know shooting things takes a long time and you know it's it's annoying yeah because i i you can't help but like i don't i'm not by nature an actor i'm like this is the job to me it's like i could be doing other things even if they're nothing yeah i could be doing them yeah you know yeah i both i go back and forth between like i wish i was in more stuff i i really like that's the most direct way to get my comedy out there is if i write it and then i'm in it and then when that i've been lucky enough to have that

happen they're like okay so we're gonna um have you in hair and makeup at 6 a.m and i'm like oh why'd i do this yeah i know you gotta really love it and also like i was so intimidated because you know you guys put this thing together and and I'm surrounded by professional riff clowns who are going to take. I got Toby Huss literally climbing the walls with his character. Riff clowns. I'm going to start using that term and be like, are they more stand-up or are they kind of a riff clown? Please. Are they more stand-up or are they kind of a riff clown?

Please. But after one day of shooting, I said to Lynn, I'm like, you're going to have to reel these people in. Or I'm just going to be like this fucking dumb straight man for a whole crew of riff clowns. Yeah, she was telling me that that was the conversation. And it was funny to us because... It was real, though. It was true. Everything we were seeing though, you were very

funny in it. It's just that there's always that couple of takes that are like 11 minutes long and someone's like gone into a whole made up rap or something. It's never going in but like when she yells cut she's laughing really hard and the crew like applauds and you're like this is

but that's not going in. We're not not gonna have an 11 minute model no and with me well i don't know that all i know is like why don't we just change the movie to toby's time why don't we call it that rip clown starring toby yes yes yeah yeah but uh so like there was a little of that kind of cockfighting going on. But like, I mean, I could, but like, but there is something about doing an improvised movie where you do have to find a level because, you know, no matter how fun it is

or what voice anyone's using, it should be character appropriate. And I think everyone eventually did land there, you know? Yeah, yeah, that's right. It does feel, you can feel it in some other ones where people are in two different movies. And I think Lynn was good at getting that.

Maybe even sometimes in the edit. I don't know because I wasn't able to come to set to that one. But everyone feels like they're in the same thing because there's other ones where, yeah, someone is so broad. Yeah. They come in and it just takes you right out of it that you're like, this person is really swinging hard. Well, I always find that it's like any movie that has John Malkovich in it, he's in a different movie. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like there's the movie that's happening then whatever movie John Malkovich is it yeah it's a different also good but yeah yeah it's a great

movie but definitely a separate movie yeah yeah or a separate show yep all right

well it was good talking to you buddy you too thanks for having me this was great

that's it that was Mike O'Brien tonight if you want to go see him, if you're in the L.A. area, Club TG in Atwater Village at 8 p.m., I will be tonight in Troy, New York,

at the Music Hall. Tomorrow in Laconia, New Hampshire. And Saturday, Burlington, Vermont. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all the upcoming dates. And enjoy. I'm okay. I'll be okay. This guitar playing makes me feel better.

It's a nice fuzz to it today. Natural distortion. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and LaFonda. Cat angels are everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything.

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