WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1442 - Jeff Stilson

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

Jeff Stilson only had two goals as a comedian: Get on Johnny Carson and write for David Letterman. After he accomplished both things, he developed a reputation as a top shelf writer for talk shows, sitcoms, award shows and other comedians. Jeff talks with Marc about his work with people like Chris Rock, Tracy Morgan, George Lopez, Ellen DeGeneres and more, as well as his experience writing for venerable institutions like the Academy Awards. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it uh today i'm going to talk to jeff stillson um jeff stillson was a guy he was almost a mythic character a great comic a very well respected comic back when i was coming up but he was always you know he had gone to australia i just remember he's one of the first guys to just jump ship country-wise it wasn't because of uh for political reasons it was a relationship but as i found out but it was just sort of like great comic you know know, was on Letterman. Uh, and then he, you know, he went to Australia and it was like, what? And I just remember him hearing his name again. He came up when I was talking to Kathy Ladman

and he's been a writer on Letterman, Chris Rock, The Daily Show, George Lopez, lots more, uh, writing gigs, lots more shows. And he's kind of this mythic standup and writer, but he's not, he's real. And I'm going to talk to him, but he was a great standup. I don't, I think that gets, uh, that might not, you know, he's made a life as a writer, but he was always a very funny, very, you know, uh, sardonic kind of standup. I always liked him. And, and I was reminded of his existence by a couple of people who had been on the show. And I reached out to him and now we're going to have the conversation. Are you okay? I know New York, it's the East Coast having a little haze, huh? Having been out here on the West Coast for

many years where we've had the particle ridden orange haze of unbreathable air, I got to say, suck it up. What choice do you have? Suck it up. Get used to it. Make those lungs adapt. Stay inside if you have to. Go out there with a mask, whatever you got to do.

But this is it, man. This is the way it is. That's one of the horrible realizations, and certainly I've covered this in comedy specials. It's apocalyptic looking. I know it is. That's one of the horrible realizations. And certainly I've covered this in comedy specials. It's apocalyptic looking. I know it is. And I think ultimately, if I lose my glib demeanor here, it's horrifying. And it's horrifying in such a deep way that you almost can't process it. I mean, you could have your moment where you're outside and you're like, holy fuck, this is terrible. This is terrible. But there's really nowhere to go with that. This is where we've arrived. This is what we've arrived at. And sadly, no matter where the

fires are, there's always at this time of year, a good chunk of North America burning, burning thousands of acres burning. I mean, I have to assume that it's going to happen in California, but we did get a lot of rain and also a lot of California burned in the last couple of years. And there's nothing you can do, but get used to it. The time for action may have passed. So now it's just a adapt or die, man. And it's kind of grim. I understand it. And you may think of it on some level, depending on what degree of denial or understanding you have of climate, that, you know, this is the way of the forest, the way of the world. Stuff burns off. It regrows.

It happens. You can look for historical precedents that, hey, there were the great fires of 200 BC, according to rock sediment or whatever kind of information you want to gather in order to somehow put it into perspective or find some other time where half the world was on fire. Knock yourself out if it makes you feel better. But bottom line is, all you can do is fucking deal with it. And it's horrifying. So I feel bad for you.

My heart is with you. We had it here, and it's one of the scariest things I've ever had to live through, really, this ongoing drought and constant fires that were literally miles away from my home, not knowing how fast or how much they would spread. The idea that, hey, but I live in a sort of town. There's not a lot of trees around, but when fire rips through, it rips through, man. It just goes. It blows through, leaving nothing but ash. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, East Coast. Nothing but ash. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, East Coast. You know, we've processed it. And look, if you've got some ideas, if there's some action to be taken, if you think we can gather enough people together, like maybe it would probably take at least half the planet worth of people to shake their fists at the sky and, and, and say that they're not going to take it anymore. It's going to take a lot. So again, back to square one, suck it up.

This is it. This is how we live now. Um, I will be at Largo in Los Angeles tonight, but I believe that show is sold out. This Saturday, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter, and I'll be back there on Saturday, June 24th. The June 24th show is available. Then I'm at Largo on Sunday, July 1st for a music show. So that's happening.

So what do you do, people? What do you do when there's, it seems like, as the late Pat Cooper would say, it's over. It's over. Pat Cooper passed away. He was no youngster, but he was one of the greats. He was one of the great comics and a great personality and I've talked about him on this show before it's over David he used to say it's over but he was uh you know he I've mentioned him I've referenced him many times before because I was uh I think I was on a show with him or just after him it was a Danny uh or just after him, it was a Danny LaBelle show back in New York, you know, out of Borough College, I think it was, a comedy radio show, pre-podcast, I believe. And he was explaining something amazing that never left me. It was one of those bits of information, bits of wisdom, bits of insight that I found to be tremendous in that he was, yeah,

I think Danny might've called him a star. He said, you're a star. And, and Pat said, I'm not a star. Frank Sinatra is a star. I'm a name. I'm a name. Frank is a star. I'm a name. So a star I'm a name So beautifully put So precisely correct There are names and there are stars And I think I'm a name I'll take it

It's better than being nobody I'll be a name R.I.P. Pat Cooper God damn it he was funny I've even got some of his old records What else can I tell you The vegan thing is going fine It's going fine RIP Pat Cooper. God damn it, he was funny. I've even got some of his old records. What else can I tell you? The vegan thing is going fine.

It's going fine. I'm going to, you know, I usually bring a brisket to this party, to this person's house I'm going to on Sunday, but I'm going to make a vegan chili, vegetarian chili from the Angelica cookbook. And I'm looking forward to it because it's challenging. It's new. It doesn't look like a recipe I'd make. There are some, you know, dubious ingredients that I'm curious about, but you know, fuck it. What's I'm going to make some cornbread, some vegan

Southern style cornbread. I have the recipes. It's fine, man. It's fine. And don't email me about how there are people with, you know, LDL cholesterol of a thousand, but because of their genetic predisposition to something that has to do with triglycerides and HDL, there's no indication that that high in LDL has any effect on their heart and they have no plaque in their heart. That's an email I got based on a hundred people or something. People pushing back on the seemingly to them limited understanding of LDL cholesterol and heart disease. Well, here's the deal. I have plaque. I have some plaque. I got some gunk in my pipes. So I'm just going to go ahead and keep trying to keep my LDL down.

I appreciate all the research and all the homework and that there are people that never get high cholesterol and that they have no plaque in their heart. That guy is not me. But fine. Send the information if you want. Do what you want. Then another guy says you should have your LDL at around 50. Mike, it's not speculative. Can I just listen to the cardiologist?

Is that okay? Can I? Just because there are these small numbers of people that are getting away with it because of their hereditary dispositions. It doesn't mean everybody. And you just got to take whatever course of action you need to for yourself, I guess. So Jeff Stilson, not here to plug anything, only here because I felt like I had overlooked him or I'd forgotten to get him. And I've known him forever or of him, met a few times along the way. So he's got nothing to plug. You can watch some of the shows that he's written for, like The Last OG and The Ali G Show and the Chris Rock documentary, Good Hair.

OG and the Ali G show and the Chris Rock documentary, Good Hair. And this is some like inside baseball writing stuff, but it's also writing for these type of shows and also just, you know, comic life, a comic life. This is me talking to Jeff Stilson. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family.

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Great. I got all the levels here. Just correct me if I get too loud. I get excited talking about shit. I don't... Don't worry about it. It's good. Most people can't fucking talk at all on mics. They talk so low, I don't even know how.

I don't even get a signal. Oh, I get excited and I start yelling and I don't know I'm yelling. It's all right. I'm like that too until someone's crying. That's when you know. When someone cries. I've been seeing some of that lately. Fuck.

So, you know what? It was so weird because I talked to two people that brought you up. And I was like, I don't know. Did I talk? I've done 1,400, 1,500 of these. So I'm like, did I talk to Stillson? Yeah. So did I talk to Stillson?

And it's like, no. And I'm like, how is that possible? The mythic Jeff Stillson? It's very possible. The mythic Jeff Stillson? No, that's very. I don't know about mythic. No, I mean, I have talked to lesser beings.

I hope so. In comedy. Yeah. And I just don't know how that oversight happened because. Yeah, you're interviewing Obama, for God's sake. I hope so. In comedy. Yeah. And I just don't know how that oversight happened because... Yeah, you're interviewing Obama, for God's sake. I know, but I also

interview Rich Voss. You know, it's not... You know, there's not... Well... And I literally interview... That's the only time Rich Voss and Obama will ever be mentioned

in the same... No, he was like the next episode. Voss is hilarious, by the way. He was the next episode. Rich Voss is one of the funniest, just purely funny people I've been around.

He's very funny. He is. I worked with him when Rock was hosting the Academy Awards. Rock always hires just comedians. Not all comedians, but he loves comedians in the room. So Voss wrote on the Academy Awards. Yeah. And God damn it, it was fun having him in the room.

Sure. And just to have him there, it felt like comedians, not a stuffy award show. Well, that's the way Rock is. Rock is a guy who always, he'll always take a punchline if you offer him one and he likes it. Oh my God, he's a joke machine. He loves jokes. And, you know, we write jokes and we perform

jokes and so when you get to work with someone like that, you're grateful. One of the biggest regrets of my life, but I have to frame it as not a regret, was I gave him an idea once, and it was a great idea, and it became a huge bit of his. And I guess I'm happy that it got out there, but I don't get any credit for it.

You know, it was- It's funny how that happens, isn't it? Yeah, well, I mean, I imagine as a writer, you got to live with that. Oh, my God. I'm telling you, and I'm not, working with Rock was the best experience of my life because, first of all, he's a good guy. Second, he's hilarious. Third, he's brave. It's everything you want if you have to work for someone else.

Yeah. But easy to be around. Right. But I've worked for other people where your idea morphs into their idea. And there's, at first, it's, oh, we thought of it together. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you're cut out completely. Yeah.

And it's their idea. But you've got paper. I know, but isn't that the nature of it? I mean, if you're like doing a working, like for me, you know, I wasn't even sober yet and it was a Catch a Rising Star, not the old one, but the middle one, the one down by FIT. He's working on this bit about how come they can't find a cure for AIDS. You know what I mean?

Right, yeah. Then I told him at the bar, I said, there's no money in a cure. That kind of triggered that whole planned obsolescence bit. I don't even know if he'd remember it, but I remember it. Oh, you remember everything you ever thought of and wrote. I mean, that's what we do. It became a big bit. Yeah.

You know, and it's like, it was okay. I'm glad I helped him out. But there was part of me that's like, oh. You know, but I wouldn't have gotten it out there in the world. And it was an important bit. You quickly learn. Yeah. Never, if you're still doing comedy yourself.

Yeah. Not to share your really good ideas. A couple of guys have given me tags. Guys have come up to me and tagged a couple bits, and I've used them,

but you know, it's not like at the end of a joke you're going to say like, thanks Tom Rhodes, you know, or your don't-a-be. No,

it's just that you kind of, you just, even, no, you don't expect anything on stage or on the show. You just want to hear that, oh, good job on that bit. Yeah. I mean, I'm really grateful instead of, man, that bit I wrote was spectacular. was spectacular. But it happens, and, I mean, that's why I think it takes a certain force to become the front man of a show. Yeah.

So it takes, you really have to be driven, and you have to be incredibly courageous. But also just to, like, this is why I think you're mythic. Because, I mean, when did you start, like, you're a little older than me in the business. Like, you were doing comedy, I think you're mythic. Because, I mean, when did you start? Like, you're a little older than me in the business. Like, you were doing comedy, I think, by the time I started doing comedy. When did you start? I started in 84.

It was my first open mic. Oh, okay. So when was your first paid gig? I hit at the right time as far as going on stage. I was full-time within nine months of my first open mic. 84. So I was full-time in 88. So my first open mic 84 so I was full-time in 88 so it's not that big of a difference but you were already established by the time I started doing barely

I think I did my first Letterman in 89 I started in like 86 but I did Evening at the Improv in 89 but I didn't wow you got you got going fast well yeah but they're they had nothing but shows to fill it wasn't it wasn't like you know it't some great, it wasn't because I was amazing. It was because they were churning out evening at the improvs and Carol Vance comedy hour. Are you vested in AFTRA? What does that mean? To qualify. You have to have a certain number of qualifying years to get a pension.

Oh, yeah, I think I am, yeah. I get a tiny pension, enough to pay for my meds at some point, from after just because of those shows. Yeah. I think it's five years you have to make a certain amount of money. But in the WGA, you got to be all set. Oh, I'm good. I have like 108 qualifying quarters. So that's great.

Yeah. In fact, I, yeah. No, the WGA has been great but you know there were so many of those shows that you could sure you could get mtv half hour oh my god yeah we did all the same one comedy on the road yep uh yeah it was just it would they were just never ending they were they were never ending and by 89 i had done i think i'd done two evening at the improvs and two caroline's comedyours with less than four years into it. And then they did Improv Tonight on top of Evening at the Improv.

I kind of remember that. You just find a new word to put in front of me. Remember the Comedy Central ones, the A-list? Oh, yeah. You did that, too? Oh, shit, yeah. I did anything. I did that Fox, what was it called?

The comic? What was it on Fox? It was on a broadcast network. I think I did that 10 times. Yeah. And the only reason I did it was, well, of course, the money. It paid better than the cable ones. But they give you a present.

Yeah. They give you a gift. Well, you judge it now, like the swag you get. I just did Fallon last week or two weeks ago. And I'm like, and I actually, I didn't have in the room my luggage to bring back the hoodie and the water thermos and the bag. But I had them send it. I'm like, I don't even know if I'm going to wear it. But it's so nice.

It's so nice. The presents are so nice. Oh, it's great. I mean, I think that's in our blood. Free shit? Free shit. Because you were a road comic, right? Yeah.

I did the road eight years in a row, more than 300 days. So if you go anywhere and you're treated kind of nicely instead of having to stay in a condo or whatever. Oh, when you would do a club where they're like, you can get anything you want off the menu, and it was good food, you're like, really? Yeah. Like anything? Yeah. Like, anything? Yeah. Can I bring some shit home, back to the hotel? And the bad clubs wouldn't let you eat there or make you pay.

They'd go, oh, you get half price. Right, yeah, fuck you. Yeah, exactly. I started weird because I did the one-nighter scene. Like, I came up, my first year or two in comedy was doing, you know, one-nighters in New England, you know, at two-man shows. Yeah. So, like, I started having to do a half hour. There was no evolution.

Jesus. Right? Well, it was just, that was the way that I started. And then I went out as a middle. But I never got, I never dug into the road somehow or another. I went from Boston to sort of headliner over time. Man, I went out, I just decided at a certain point, I'm not equipped for any other job. So when I started in

84, I was committed to it because I tried some other jobs. I hated them. And this is what I always wanted to do. And it's still the only thing I could ever see myself doing. And you're a great standup. Well, I wouldn't say i i i kind of wish i would have i went into writing when i got i had two goals going into stand-up i don't know what yours were mine i wanted to be on the tonight show yeah or letterman right and i wanted to write on letterman so i i got a goal those were my only two goals but that. See, that's what I was going to say. When you were talking about guys who front shows or guys who have the wherewithal to really throw their hat into the ring and just commit to comedy only to see if they can be one of the ten guys that can actually make a living at that. Is that what my – the point I'm making is that when I was coming up or when I was, by the time I'd

worked a little bit and I was in Boston, you were writing at Letterman. And it was like, it was one of these moments where I'm like, oh, that's another way to go with this. Because in retrospect, a lot of the smart guys that I started with all went into writing. And I was the only idiot. I never wanted to write for anybody. But you're smart in the long run. Look what you're doing now. Dude you're smart in the long run. Look what you're doing now. Dude, it could have so went bad. By the time I started this, dude, I had nothing.

I couldn't sell tickets. I wasn't working the road much because this kind of happened. I had some cosmic timing. But no, no, no, it's not cosmic. All of it's cosmic, by the way. But you innovated. You had the balls to try this. And that's what it takes.

You have to have, there's that, look it, all of us are courageous when we go on stage and try to make strangers laugh. Courageous or desperate, whatever you want to call it. It takes a certain amount of courage to do that. But then there's that other level. And that's when you innovate. And, you know, Rock, Rock was this way. Yeah. He just, he had balls.

Yeah. And I, I, I ultimately didn't. And I, I can, I can tell you a story about what happened to me at Letterman. I was, I was two writers, great writers. Yeah.

Spike Ferriston, Donna Carey, they're staff writers. I remember, I was two writers, great writers. Yeah. Spike Ferriston, Donna Carey, they're staff writers. I remember, I knew Spike kind of. Yes. And Spike, they went to Dave and said, we want Jeff to host the 1230 show after you. This was when Dave went to CBS. Yeah. And they needed, and he had the, he owned the- Oh, that's what became Ferguson? No, Tom, it became Ferguson, but Tom Snyder was the first one, then Kilbourne, then Ferguson. Wow. So they pitched- But they wanted you. They pitched me, these two writers, great writers.

Spike was a Seinfeld writer. He wrote, yeah, he wrote the Soup Nazi episode. And then Donnick wrote on The Simpsons and some other really funny guys. I mean, the writers on that show were just on another level. So they pitched me, and Dave rejects me. And Dave was my idol. Dave is why. So when Dave rejected me, I accepted that as the truth.

Right. Who knows better than Dave Letterman that I'm not equipped to front a show? And that was it. I gave up. I don't know if I wanted to front a show or not, but I gave up on me ever pursuing an on, not an on camera. I was on camera on Michael Moore's show as a correspondent. Was it TV Nation? TV Nation, yeah.

As a correspondent. Was it TV Nation? TV Nation, yeah. But I didn't have the balls to go out and pursue anything after that because Dave said I shouldn't. And Dave is cool, by the way, and I trusted him. He's my idol. But if you want that gig, you're not going to let a person tell you no. He could have been having a bad day. Yeah, he was right. He was right. He could have been having a bad day. Yeah, he was right.

He was right. He was right. He was right. I mean, what he went through, I've never seen. Those people, what they go through when they're in that grind. Have you talked to him recently? I got, the last time I saw him was a couple years ago. We did this thing for the Mark Twain Prize, and he was great.

Nice guy. He's, look, it was hard working there i've never worked like that i'll tell you i was uh it's very funny though when you're programmed or when you love dave right because i love dave was he your idol sure well i mean he was the guy i wanted to be on the i wanted to be on his show yeah i mean i didn't i didn't think i could do what he did or i i you know he wasn't my comedy idol but he was my guy you, I watched his show and I wanted to do comedy on his show. I wanted to do panel. I mean, I used to see, you know, Richard Lewis, you know, do his thing.

And, you know, Jay would do the thing. I really saw myself as a good panel act, you know. But nonetheless, I ended up, you know, doing panel. But it was, I was well into, you know, it was towards the end of him. I'm trying to think when the first letterman, I did four, you know, over a series of six or seven years, but nonetheless, did you start, did you do the NBC show or the CBS show or both? No, I never did the NBC show. Uh, I just couldn't, I couldn't get on. I did a lot. You just started. I mean, I guess so. Yeah. But here's the point. But, you know, because I've interviewed Leonard.

He's been to this house. Like, he was in the house up here. Like, I had before I got the, while they were still working on this, on the construction, I was doing it in the second bedroom. It was just so funny to see Dave walking up my sidewalk. I'm like, this isn't fucking happening, you know? Oh, God. But it was great.

It was a great interview. But a couple years later, recently, within the last year, he came to the improv. Or not the improv, the comedy store. I never go to the improv. For some reason, with other people, to see me. And I don't even know how they knew I was on the show. It was a comic show. But it was one of these situations where I'm waiting to go on. And, and the manager says, comes backstage, he goes, you know, Dave Letterman's here. And,

and I'm like, what? He's like, he's here. And then my only thought in that moment was, am I in trouble? God, that's so great. But here's what I was going to say afterwards. I'm just talking to him on the, on the porch, just having regular conversation. He was very complimentary in my work, but we're just kind of talking, and I got a laugh out of him. And it's that Letterman laugh, right? So this is just casual conversation, but still that laugh is like, it was like the most important thing in the world in that moment. When I got to hang out with him, what, two years ago or whatever for this thing,

and we shot a little piece for the Mark Twain Prize. That's what you do. You're still trying to make him laugh oh my god like like you're on panel on the show it's the best it's he's he's i i still do you ever go down the rabbit holes or you watch either carson or the sometimes i watched yesterday i don't know what the hell it was i ended up watching uh jamie lee curtis on letterman sally field on letterman yeah mr t on Letterman. And he had a reputation for not being a great interviewer. I beg to differ. He's really good at it. And I mean, I just,

I'm fascinated because I do think that was the golden era of late night when you had Carson on at 1130 during the traditional show. Dave at 1230 kind of deconstructing the traditional show. And then Arsenio on whatever it was. I think it was syndication because I think he owns it. But I think it probably aired on Fox.

But you had three very different shows and they were all innovative. Yeah. And, you know, I loved it. I mean, that's what I lived for. Where'd you grow up?

Spokane, Washington. Really? Yeah. There's a club up there now. Is there really? Yeah. You know, I liked it. I like Spokane.

That's where White's Boots is. You can get White's, the White's Boots are made in Spokane. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, no one knows about them, but I love them. I'm looking for some new boots. I'm going to go to my hometown, yeah. You can do, you got to go get, you can get measured up there. Do you go to Spokane ever?

I do. I have a cabin, you know, like an hour and a half from Spokane in the woods that I bought from my dad. It's my favorite place to be in the world. So I, and I have all my friends from Spokane. So I went to college in Seattle, the University of Washington. And then, you know, I've lived in big cities since. But Spokane is great.

Like I went up there, they got a legit club there and it's a pretty good room. But like, you can tell the town is like beat up and it's trying to sort of come back. But I thought it was pretty charming. and I had a good time up there. And Seattle I worked in a lot. So you were a Pacific Northwest guy. Yeah. I started in Seattle. Really?

At the Comedy Underground? Comedy Underground with Drake Sather. We started at the exact same time, a really funny guy. No one ever talks about him, man. Nobody does because of the way he went out, you know? Yeah, but also, like, you know, there wasn't enough stand-up around. Like, you know, he was a great writer and stuff, but it's a great writer. But the stand-up's so limited, it's hard to find Drake Sather stand-up.

Yeah, it's, uh, he was... He was a predecessor to Jezelnik. No, Jezelnik reminds me of Sather. Yeah, no, I think that's fair. Right? Yeah, just stand there with solid jokes and knock them out. Dark shit, though. Really dark shit.

Drake was dark, but such a great guy to come up with. And, you know, we led parallel lives for a long time. So when did you, like, start hammering, like, doing the open mics and shit? I started in 84. At Seattle Underground. Seattle Underground. The first one I did was at a place called Blocks on Queen Anne. And then the Underground was the next gig I did.

And then I had this little thing worked out where I do Blocks on a Thursday night and I do all new material. This is how stupid I was. I do all new material every time I went stupid I was. I do all new material every time I went up. 10 minutes of new material at blocks and then I do the best of

when I went to the underground because there was more pressure. That's where you wanted to get booked. What was the name of the building it was in? The bar? Swanee. Swanee's right.

Pioneer Square. Do you know the story behind Swanee? No. Have you ever seen The Battered Bastards of Baseball? No. It's this great documentary. Kurt Russell's dad bought a team in Portland.

Oh, yes, I knew about them. Swanee was the catcher on that team. And we all knew he played baseball, but I only saw that documentary a few months ago, and he's in it, and he's a left-handed catcher, which I guess is unusual. I'm a baseball fan, but I didn't know that was a big deal. And, you know, he would hang out. He's a great guy. And he put comedy underneath his bar.

And it was a great room. The original room. No, I was there. I'd done it. It was dank and weird. And it was a basement, so it had low ceilings. And it was almost moldy in there. Yep.

Well, Seattle's a great town. I love Spokane. I'll probably move back there at some point. You think so? Yeah. I just do, because now you can kind of work. You can work Zoom if you're going to write. But did it bounce back? I mean, do you feel like it's, like, because there was definitely, it felt like a kind of meth-y contingent, and it was still pretty beat up. But I could see the framework of the city was charming. When I was there, I thought, yeah, I could kind of live here. But then a couple hours away, there's nothing but Nazis.

Well, the Nazis have kind of been run out, believe it or not. That was Hayden Lake, and they had this compound there. And they got sued, and they lost their compound. So now they've gone either for, they, I don't know if they found some other state, but they've gone, they've gone way off the grid.

So, uh, yeah, that, that's kind of, that stuff's, I can't say it's gone, but it's not,

it does certainly doesn't have. no, now it's a, now it's your neighbor and they don't talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a little lighter than the full Nazi. It, now it's your neighbor, and they don't talk about it. Yeah, yeah, no, it's...

A little lighter than the full Nazi. It's... Spokane is... I like Spokane, and the truth is I want to get some acreage. I want a place where... What are you waiting for? This is a pathetic fantasy,

but for my dogs to run free. Sure. And they do that, and I have a cabin in the woods. So then where do you move first after when you start doing comedy? I went to, okay, so I started in Seattle. Yeah. Always wanted to live in New York my whole life.

Yeah, sure. All my favorite sports teams are from New York for some reason. Yeah. And so my goal was, so within a couple years I had moved to New York. Yeah. And so my goal was, so within a couple years, I had moved to New York. Yeah. And that's probably where we met because I think I moved to New York in 87 after spending two years on the road.

I was like, but yeah, I wasn't quite going down there yet. I mean, in 89, that's really where I started. You know, unless you came up to Boston to work,

which you probably did. I worked Stitches a lot, and I think I did the Comedy Connection. Yep. And, yeah, those two clubs. Yeah, so I might have met you up there. But wait, in Seattle, other than Drake, were there guys you came up with that made the cut? Out of our class, I don't think so. Yeah.

Well, it was, you know, and not because they weren't funny, it's just that you had this scene at that point, Vancouver Island, really rough gigs. Yeah. So the comics would kind of, you know, build an act that would work in those rooms. It's so funny, though, when you say Vancouver Island,

the reason a gig like that is tough is because it's a transient population of vacationers or just local island people. That's Victoria. But then you also had like the fishing communities up in Nanaimo and stuff. And it was like a microphone. One-nighters. One-nighters. A microphone on a disco floor.

That's what I did in New England. Yeah. We'd go all the way up into Maine. Yeah. It was, that was, that's how the first years of my fucking career started. Yeah. And it's rough. You walk in and you're like, where, where am I doing it?

Yeah. And, and then they, there was one, uh, it was called the Tally Ho. Uh, it was actually in Victoria. So you thought it would be halfway decent, but it was at noon on a Sunday. Right. And they turn off the hockey game. Right. Oh, yeah.

And they go, oh, it's time for comedy. And it's like, and they go, oh, boo. Yeah. But it went on for like 15 years. Yeah. They never stopped. Why do you seem to hate this? It's like there was one in Lowell called Derby Park, the Derby Park in Lowell, Massachusetts,

which was one of my first gigs. It was a similar thing and just an awkward situation. It went on forever. All right. So you go to New York and where are you working? My home club was Catch a Rising Star, but my second club that I loved was The Strip. Those were the two, yeah.

And then The Cellar. The Cellar wasn't what it was now then. No. And then I also did, God, this is pathetic, Stand Up New York. Sure. Yeah. So those were. Carrie Hoffman. Carrie Hoffman. Oh my God. What a character. He's a Sinatra. I know. He's a Sinatra impersonator. Yeah. He's unbelievable. He was such a character. Yeah. I loved Carrie and I love that room. And then it got really bad. I never loved that room. The ceilings were too high. It was weirdly, you know. No, it was a weird room, but the audiences were good. Yeah, somehow he put it on the map, you know. But he was sort of a cunt. A lot of people hated Cary. They hated him.

But just were annoyed by him. I just found him so odd and interesting. He came up to me once and said, you know, comedy's really not about what you're doing anymore. I'm like, what? The first time after me was, I said, you know, comedy is really not about what you're doing anymore. I'm like, what? Isn't that great when you got odd advice from club managers? Ultimately, just by virtue of me surviving in the business, a lot of these guys that were not nice to me have come around.

You know, I guess that's just what happens. It beats you up and you kind of, I mean, look at, it really is like a TV show survivor. I mean, it beats you up and you realize you're a dick at times in your life. I think I was a total dick for years. I was very opinionated about my shit and it was like, and I was wrong a lot of the time. Like how? What was your?

Oh, I just had these notions about comedy and I didn't, I thought you stripped comedy down to your bare self, right? Yeah. So I never added any performance- Right. To my show. And so it's like, really, you want to watch a guy- But it was all on the jokes. It was all on the jokes, was all on the jokes but you can

you know people this is what rock let me just tell you a quick rock story just because it was so impressive to me so working on the show the chris rock show and he told me about after he got fired from snl yeah he decided well no one's gonna ever hire me again so i better be a good stand-up comedian right so he started studying preachers and standup comics and he decided he had, had to add performance to his show. And so he reinvented himself. If you remember when we early on, Chris would just stand there like us.

He still does it. You don't stand there though. I don't stand there. I move around. But, but Chris, when he's working out jokes, does that.

Does that. That's his, that's his default position. But then when he figured out, I gotta,, you know, I got to perform here. Yeah. And so he, most comics, how they started is how they end, right? Yeah. If you started this way, you end that way.

Right. And you wait for the world to change and all of a sudden discover you. Yeah. Rock said, no, I only reached this level of success. So he completely, when he did Bring the pain, he's pacing across the stage. He's like a panther. And it's like, you know,

that's, that's amazing to me. But yeah, but it was like a conscious decision because, you know, I've always known

that about him because when you talk to Chris, you know, he can barely maintain eye contact. He's looking down. He's soft-spoken. And then when he gets up there,

that's like the other thing. That's, you know, this is the construction of Chris Rock of who he is on stage. when he gets up there, that's like the other thing. This is the construction of Chris Rock, of who he is on stage. And he's not, you watch Eddie Murphy. Sure. It's just part of who he is, that movement, all that shit. Yeah.

Chris, I have more respect for Chris because he had to work at it. Right, he had to come up with a persona. Murphy's just one of those guys where it's like, no matter, he's just going to be funny no matter what. Isn't that crazy? There's only a few of them,

you know, but it's kind of great to watch. I watched him on Letterman 2 yesterday and it's just like, man, that's crazy.

It was his first appearance on Letterman. There's just people that, you know, are effortlessly hilarious without seemingly not trying, you know?

Will Ferrell's like that. Will Ferrell's unbelievable. He throws a switch and it's fucking over. Tracy Morgan can be like that. Of course. He does this weird... Yeah, he's a savant. He does this weird thing, especially on talk shows where he's just...

You also don't know what he's going to do. No. He's just like, is he okay? There's always sort of like, where's this going? There's something menacing about his kind of, you just don't know what the fuck that guy's going to say or do. No. And you know what's weird about it?

I've worked for him, you know, not working together anymore, but I worked with him for 10 years. On what? On his TV show, on his standup, everything he did. I, I, you know, I would work on him. One of his guys, but I, I think at a certain point I was his guy. What did he want out of you? Jokes?

Jokes. And just, you know, he knew I thought about shit more than he was going to. So, you know, Tracy just wants to be funny. Yeah. He sent me like on his phone once he just a little video of him taking a pie. Yeah. And putting it in his face. I just like to be funny.

Yeah. You know, and it's like, that's he, you wouldn't believe who his influences are. I mean, he goes back to the fifties. He,

he loves Jackie Gleason. Right. Sure. Well, that makes sense if you watch him. Yeah. I mean, he goes back to the 50s. He loves Jackie Gleason, right? Yeah, sure. Well, that makes sense if you watch him. Yeah. But he kind of absorbed this stuff not in a, you know, the way we would. Right.

Right? Yeah. Where I would study comedy. Yeah. And Tracy just absorbs it. Uh-huh. And he's just, I mean, that's, he's just funny. No, yeah, he's an oddball, and he's a little crazy.

Not a little crazy. Yeah. You got to understand, he got sober like 20 years ago. I know. I remember. He's so crazy, he doesn't appear to be sober. When he wasn't sober, I remember when he wasn't sober, and it was way out there, dude.

And really funny. One of the funniest alcoholics I've ever seen. So, all right. So you get to New York and you're just hammering standup. Yeah. Just, I loved it because I do 20 sets in a week. I'd do five sets on a Friday, seven on a Saturday. I took Mondays off, but every other night I do three. And you're not married then? No. I mean, you're just doing the thing. I'm just doing, I'm just doing and loving it. And so when do the first breaks come?

You still got it in your mind that you want to do Letterman? Yep. Maybe right on Letterman. Yeah. May, I think May, May 10th. Because you did a Comedy Central half hour and all that shit, right? I did a, I did a HBO half hour. Yeah, me too. Yeah, those half hour

comedies. They barely did them. You were in that crew? Yeah. At the Fillmore? Did you shoot it? Yes, at the Fillmore. Do you have a poster? Yeah. Okay, I was going to say, I have extras if you don't. But I think we were in different weeks. Might have been. Because my posters were all o'clock and it was me

and Bansia and Judycia and judy gold yeah i wasn't i wasn't janine garofalo uh jonathan cats oh that's so funny yeah yeah yeah oh so you did those that was like what 95 though when did you do them i think about 95 right that's it yeah because i think i did it they didn't last long yeah they didn't last long and they were fun the film was unbelievable, right? Yeah. It was a very exciting thing for me. Yeah, I did Letterman for the first time in May of 89, I think the 10th.

It's so funny. I just remembered something. Where David Cross, like he, I remember he told me this, that he was so drunk at my film war taping for the half hour. Like he was up in the balcony and I was on stage. And at some point he decided like, I'm going to go up on stage and fuck with him. And this was a TV taping.

Wow. And he was walking down to do that. And he somehow got hold of himself. That's great. He was so drunk. Oh, what would have happened? I think David was part of mine. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. It was probably the week after. Yeah. But it was, you know, no, so New York was spectacular in that if you were, first of all, I had this notion in my head that that's where you want to do stand-up. Sure, it is. And then it's coming true. And it was every, every night was a dream come true for me.

It was, I couldn't believe that I'm on stage at Catch a Rising Star. All these great comics are... Still there. There. Dangerfield used to come in. All fucked up. The best. And he was hilarious.

And all these people. Seinfeld was, you know, just breaking in. Was Larry around? Yeah, Larry. But Larry would never make it through a set. Yeah. Without storming off. Yeah.

And we would sit in the back and, you know, it was like an over under six minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, Kevin Meaney. Yeah. Do you remember Kevin Meaney? Of course. I was in Boston when he was coming up. I remember Kevin.

God. I mean, nobody could blow a room out. I mean, he, he did this 20 minutes and it was. Yeah. It was spectacular. And you can't even explain to people what Meaney was. He this 20 minutes and it was, yeah, it was spectacular. And you can't even explain to people what mean he was. He just had this, it was almost like Ethel Merman. It was, I mean, it was, it was, it was fantastic. So, so I did that. And then, you know, they, they had that weird audition process. Do you remember the Letterman audition

process where the producer would come in a million times, Morty and... Barbara Morton, yeah, I just remember Catch, like, I couldn't get in there and I eventually

was too proud to kiss Louis Ferranda's ass. So I, I wasn't part of that thing. Well, every room

kind of had its favorite comedians and you'd find the one that really liked you. Comic strip Lucian wasn't a big fan of mine. No,

he said to me, he said, I already have enough angry white guys. Yeah, they put you in these categories. See, now I was the opposite. I was the laconic, laid back. Right, right. You need some, with Lucian,

who ended up being a good friend. Yeah, exactly. But he passed me, and then, you know, I kind of worked my way up the ladder a little bit. But it was, he didn't, you know. i kind of worked my way up the ladder a little bit but it was it was he didn't you know i was working at the at the original improv with silver i never did that yeah well that was because it was this weird kind of ghost town of a place right and silver friedman was running things and was sort of like a weird collection of guys over there but that was the

place but she would let me work and barry katz had that room downtown the boston comedy club and he let me work but like she didn't let me in the cellar until i i did an hbo uh half hour until 95 and then uh lewis i never i never played the original catch i just i just didn't well they they all had their prejudices or whatever it was yeah yeah and and and carrie let Yeah. Yeah, put it there. And Carrie let me work, yeah. Boston Comedy Club was a weird room, I thought. It was like barely a room. It was just run by,

you know, like, you know, kids. Such an odd choice to name it the Boston Comedy Club when people in New York hate people. Well, the idea was

all these comics that, you know, Barry had come down from Boston. And you remember, there was all those regional guys that stayed up there, dude.

Don Gavin, Steve Sweeney, Kenny Rogerson. You know, great fucking comics up there. Joe Iannetti, Lenny Clack, you know. I ran into Kenny. George McDonald. And reconnected with him. I just love Kenny Rogerson. So funny, dude.

So funny and a great guy. And ran into him last year in. God, we're playing golf? No. I opened for Louis Black on the road okay so uh you know lewis has this incredible following yeah you know it's been doing it for 35 greatest guy in the world by the way nice collection of older people oh exactly no it's i mean our audience is older yeah and uh i bet you yours is younger because you have this well i mean what's interesting

is like because i did this special on hbo you know like i've done two at netflix i've done here there but hbo it's like it's people my age and older just have hbo still it still means something somehow it's kind of interesting i'm just noticing so how many specials have you done how many hours have you done? A lot. Thinky Pain, More Later, Too Real, End Times Fun. I think I've done five televised albums. That's amazing. And then another five CDs. You're very prolific. Ten hours.

Yeah, I would love to do an hour sometime, but I don't think I'll ever get the shot. No? No. I don't think, no, you got to be, you have to have the guts to go out on your own to do that. What do you mean you can't do that?

You headlined for years. Yeah, but that was years ago. I mean, I headlined until I took the writing gig at Letterman. See, this is the thing about you writing is like, there was like, at some point it was like, yeah, you know, Stillson's writing for Letterman. I'm like, oh, fuck, man, you can just do that. And then all of a sudden it's like, what happened to Stillson? I think he's in Australia.

And I'm like, what? Yeah, that came later. But okay, so how do you get the job at Letterman? Audition after audition after audition. Oh, you were talking about the process. Yeah. So you're talking about getting the show. And then they decide, yeah.

And then they decide if you're ready or not. To just do the show. To do the show. And you craft the set. And I did a few of those. And then they offered me a writing job based on that. Okay. So when the show went to CBS.

Yeah. And then so I thought, well, that's the second part of my dream. Yeah. But I was an idiot. I had never written on a show before. And I just stepped into the fire. I've never. Dave's starting up at 1130 on CBS,

he wants to be the king of late night. Yeah. And we worked, you know, if you're a comic, I worked hard as a stand-up compared to most stand-ups. Sure. I'd write three, four hours a day in my show and try new jokes every night. But I would, we would. You're like actually sitting for three, four hours?

I did. That was my favorite thing. I love the... I never got tired of the road, by the way. I love seeing the country. I love traveling with my word processor, I think, at that point. And I would write,

and I'd drink a whole pot of coffee, write jokes, and then crash, take a nap, and then get up and get ready for my show. Yeah, this is what I do now. And I talk to people. Yeah, good for you. I would do it forever if I could. take a nap and then get up and get ready for my show yeah this is like this is what I do now I love it's great

and I talk to people yeah good for you I would do it forever if I could I wish I had written more jokes for me like

in the shower today like I had an idea you know my jokes always start with ideas yeah but then you go on stage and work them out right

that's right see I never developed that muscle and I should have because you get bits that way as opposed to just jokes oh yeah so I never developed that muscle, and I should have because you get bits that way as opposed to just jokes. Oh, yeah. So I never did that.

I got in this thing with index cards, and I'd write the jokes. That's like Carlin style. Yeah, and I'd do index cards and, you know, learn the joke. You know, and still no better feeling in the world than a new joke that works. Yeah, yeah, but, like, it's weird because when I do that, in my experience of actually having jokes that are kind of their own thing, like, because they just happen occasionally, I don't write them, but I'm like, well, this is a joke,

and it's like ba-doom, ba-doom, ba-doom, ba-ding. It's like I do it a couple times, and I'm like, all right, you know, because it doesn't go. No, you've got to, you have to develop it. Yeah. You have to develop some kind of chunk. I'm a bit guy. But if you remember, our whole thing,

or maybe it wasn't for you, but it was for me, was to get on The Tonight Show or Letterman where you did jokes. Well, yeah, well, you had to figure out, well, I mean, I eventually realized that I had jokes within what I was doing, and I did those shows. People don't even realize that challenge, or maybe they do, but, you know,

to do five and a half minutes. Weird, fucking weird yeah and then like when you do letter me got eddie brill whoever was uh you know the the comics producer or the booker saying like you got to change that one and i'm like what do you mean it works it's like that language isn't right it's like you're gonna kill me he's like don't worry about it the audience is hot as fuck just do it like i told you don't do it and then you do it and it worked and you're like all right but still didn't feel as good i i didn't have to deal with eddie by the time eddie was there i didn't i'd done enough that i would i would just go to bill shift yeah and say bill what do you think you you you because he was still opening well bill

no he wasn't but he was a writer on the show and bill was a stand-up and bill yeah bill's just fucking great and and i trusted i trusted him completely recently in the news for quoting belzer's last words i don't even know if those were really belzer's last words but but chef quoted is quoted everywhere saying his last words were fuck you motherfuckers yeah no i talked to bill after that because we're still were those really his last words yeah yeah so he's i mean chef is one of those yeah i couldn't have survived that show letterman without chef because he was i wasn't used to that yeah being in that environment it was such pressure we write, we would write 60 jokes before lunch. Yeah. I mean, it was, you'd eat all three meals. Yeah. You'd eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner on the show.

And how long were you there? I was there two years from 93 to 95. And, and it was a crash course in television, but I couldn't, that's kind of when I became an insomniac. I couldn't sleep. My mind was racing all the time, coming up with material ideas and stuff because you just want to survive it. And plus, Dave was so funny, you didn't want to disappoint him. Yeah. But he, you know, the truth is he didn't give a lot back. So you're like the kid who has the dad who doesn't love you

yeah you know daddy i hit a home run today yeah he was that for everybody i think that was what made him popular i know he was and and but the great thing about letterman is even though he's hard on you he's harder on himself whereas some people in show business are just hard on you they're just assholes but he's like oh no look he's beating the shit out of himself beating the shit out of himself oh we can't even put this on the air he'd talk about you know he'd watch a tape i don't know how you do it you watch yourself after you do something yeah i can't do it so i have to just to make sure that cuts good like with a special you have to yeah with you with a special, yeah. He would just pound himself after each show. Yeah.

This is horrible. You can't put that on the air. What else are you going to put on the air? Yeah. Oh, really? But yeah. How did it end there? Well, I didn't get picked up.

Oh. Yeah. So, and then I, yeah. But it established you because then it seems like you've written for a very eclectic bunch of stuff. A lot of black dudes and also like, because you wrote for Tracy, you wrote for Chris, you wrote for, what other shows? Oh, well, I've written for George Lopez. That's right. No, you know what happened was, okay, so after I left Letterman, it's like, okay, I can't do Late Night anymore.

Yeah. And then Rock, who was, you know. But somehow or another, you got into the cycle of black comics. Because it was so interesting to me. I led my whole life as a white person, right? Yeah. So now Rock opens up this world to me that I wasn't even aware of. I didn't know what fucking hip hop was, right?

And then so Rock was great because he loves jokes. Yeah. You'd write these jokes and you'd go, all right, well, let's just nice try. It's not a, it's a,

let's make this a Lil' Kim joke. Yeah. So, because our world wasn't the world that every other late night show was. So this is, you were there with Sklar and Louis CK. Oh, we had an unbelievable.

And Agna and Wanda. Yeah Wanda and Ollie Leroy. Ollie Leroy, yeah. I mean, Frank Sebastiano, Nick DiPaolo. Yeah. I mean, it was- What an eclectic crew. Eclectic, that's what Chris liked, and great writers. And the Letterman writers were unbelievable.

Was C.K. the head writer? No. No, Louis, you know, Louis kind of came and went on his own. Yeah. You know, I was Ed Rider. Okay. And then Ollie did, was like the sketch guy. I was the monologue.

Agnes, I came up with Agnes. What an oddball. What a, and what, he's in Thailand. I know. He's a great guy. Stay in touch with Tom. Is he all right? Yeah, he's great.

Okay. He's got a kid. Yeah. You know, Tom is um you know tom is you know tom he's he's in it he's in his own head what the joke he used to do about like you know i saw a belt that would cost three hundred dollars he says if i bought a three hundred dollar belt that's pretty much the whole outfit right no he was agneau was hilarious and a great writer too. A really good writer. Yeah. And that was an amazing staff. And then it opened my eyes to, oh, well, I don't just have to write for, and I don't want to sound racist or whatever. I don't want to just write for white

people. I want to experience different cultures. So I wrote for Ellen. I wrote for Ellen. That was, you know, everyone's pounding on Ellen now. I don't want to do Yeah. I wrote for Ellen. That was, you know, everyone's pounding on Ellen now. I don't want to do that. I don't want to pile on her. Yeah. But she was so much fun to write for. Yeah.

Ellen has her own voice. Yeah. And I wrote on one of her sitcoms and I also wrote on the Emmy's Academy Awards. It's a specific weird thing that I think she developed in San Francisco. It's sort of a,

like, cause like I used to, early on I used to think like, you know, her and Johansson have this, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Kind of this odd stream of consciousness, right? Yes, yes, yeah. And then you get to, so you get to write for Ellen. It's not like anybody else. Right. I used to, I used to love it and I'd time it. And I, this was my theory is that she drank Chardonnay at night. Yeah.

So I'd wait until I thought she had her second Chardonnay. And that's when I'd send her my jokes and I'd get these great emails back about how she loved them. And, and, and so I had, I had a very positive experience with Ellen, even though she could be hard, right? How many of these people aren't? Rock is really the only one. George Lopez wasn't hard. I got to write for Lopez on his sitcom. But you wrote like, you wrote like 100 episodes of that thing. And we didn't make it.

Oh. It was this weird 1090 thing. Oh, that's right. So you just came in right under it? We just did the 10. Oh.

Yeah, we did the 10 because a certain number, it was based on Tyler, Tyler Perry. Yeah. That you'd make 10 episodes, no pilot. Yeah.

And you had to get a certain rating. And then if you did, you'd make 10 episodes No pilot Yeah And you had to get A certain rating And then And if you got the rating You'd get 100 The back 90 kicked in Right it was syndicated So yes

So that was pretty recent No it was for It was for FX And ours And then Martin Lawrence And Kelsey Grammer Had one together And neither one made it

It was the wrong network Charlie Sheen's made it Charlie Sheen made it That was the I think that was the only one. Yeah, that wasn't that long ago. I thought you wrote

on his original show. I didn't. Oh. and, but I've worked with, I've, George and I used to play golf as,

as, you know, road comics together. And, I just love George. George is another guy. He's another guy that has like, a,

a, a very sort of unique and menacing voice as a comic. Oh, he does. He's got a deep voice, but God, he's- But I mean, it's like just, he's like a killer, man. Oh, you watch him take that stage,

he's another guy just doesn't take hostages. He, and he's funny and he's smart and he's a really good guy. And I've had the good fortune working with him a lot um you did larry wilmore show i did larry i did that that was a showtime thing but i think it led to him getting did you meet him at rock larry wilmore no i how did i know larry i don't even know how i knew larry I think we did stand up together. Oh, and Wayne Brady was just in here. Oh, Wayne was. Yeah, I did. That was a thing, part of a Brillstein Gray overall that I had,

and they assigned me to that show. And you were on The Daily Show before John? No, I was with John briefly after Chris Rock, but I moved to LA. Briefly, after Chris Rock, but I moved to L.A. Yeah. And to be honest with you, I just didn't find The Daily Show interesting. Yeah. I didn't.

It was too. You don't got to tell me. I mean, I didn't find it interesting. It was, after working on Rock. Yeah. It just never was my thing. Yeah. I just thought like, okay okay you take a joke and nothing a lot of people loved it it just after rock and letterman right the bar was just high so high and

different it was just different those shows were so exciting for me yeah and what what do you do for ali g i was a writer and producer. Oh, my God. But that seems like a completely different world. Is that guy looking for jokes? Yeah. Oh, my God. It's so brilliant. Yeah.

Oh, you talk about someone who's hard to work for. Yeah. Here he is in the eye of the storm. Every time he does those interviews, people think he's real. That character is real, whatever character it is. Right. But you get him out of that environment, and it's like he's real. Yeah. That character is real. Whatever character it is. Right. But you get him out of that environment. Yeah.

And it's like, he's crazy. Yeah. And you're going, you can handle this, but you can't handle checking into a hotel. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But he's, no one, you talk about being innovative. Yeah.

No one had ever done anything like that before. No, it's crazy. And it was so, so much fun. Yeah. But also awful because a lot of the, you know, I liked Ali G, the character, because he would take down people with power. Yeah. But Borat kind of preyed on rubes. Yeah.

You know, you get 50 bucks and then they'd stand there and be made a fool of. That's where you drew the line. Well, I mean, I did it on The Daily Show too. And it's like, I don't like to. And even on TV Nation, we did that a few times, where you take down some guy in Alabama who's dim-witted and has no idea what's happening to him. He's going to be on national television. You felt bad for him? I felt horrible, but I didn't have the balls to walk away from it.

Yeah. I still wanted my check. Sure. Yeah. Now, when did you go to australia because we're talking about ronnie chang the other day he's like oh stillson was a major influence kind of thing i saw ronnie chang when he first started out he's solid dude he's funny as hell yeah and he did it was when he first started out he was like in melbourne he in melbourne he was like this

asian fonzie yeah you know it was the opposite of the stereotype he'd come out and he challenged the audience and and it was just like brilliant and funny and a great guy and uh yeah i felt you know my friend glenn robbins who was a tv star in australia or a um a comedy star there yeah saw him first and we used to do shows together. And anyway, so yeah, I was there. My ex-wife is Australian

and we went to live there because her family was there. What years was this? 2006 to 2013. So you're there, man. Seven years.

And I did stand up there, which was fun. And I worked on some TV shows there. But I also would do shows, American shows. I worked on it with Seinfeld on The Marriage Ref, which was the ill-fated Seinfeld. The only ill-fated Seinfeld show. But Jerry was really good to me. And I had fun on that show. And I could come back.

I didn't completely— But you must have done a lot of stand-up, more than you had been in a long time when you went to Australia. But it was with these two guys, Glenn Robbins and Mick Malloy. Hilarious guys, by the way, who have high profiles in Australia. And I had a little bit of a profile from doing this one TV show there, but I was basically riding on, on their coattails and we go to theaters and I got to see all of Australia, these great old historic theaters.

But you're back in the saddle with the standup. I'm back in the saddle. I loved it. And I've never been completely out of the saddle. Like I've been opening for Lewis now for the last five years. And he lets me do. How's he doing? He's doing great.

Good. And, and he's hilarious by the he doing he's doing great good and and he's hilarious by the way and uh i mean you talk about a pro yeah he did after the pandemic we didn't do shows for 500 days yeah he came out with a brand new hour yeah and he just did it yeah and the only other person i've seen do that is Rock on this tour. Yeah. The first week he went back out, I went with him, and I couldn't believe it. What, did he polish?

Punch up? Whatever. He just likes having comics around him. But yeah, you pitch jokes. Yeah. You pitch ideas. He wants to hear what you think of bits. Yeah.

And he, the first night, he hadn't done a full hour or whatever in five years or whatever. The first night he does 55 minutes of all new stuff. Who, Chris? Chris. Yeah. And then the next night he's over an hour and never goes under an hour again. And it's like, who in the fuck can do that? If I do, you know, if I do five new minutes in a night, I'm pretty happy.

Yeah. I'm really happy. Yeah. And here's a guy who does that. And the only two people I've seen do that are. Lewis. I'm really happy. Yeah. Here's a guy who does that, and the only two people I've seen do that are- Lewis. Are Lewis and Rock. So when you do these award shows,

which you've done a lot of- Yeah. You just get a call, and it's a room full of joke writers. Can be. Yeah, sometimes it's that. I mean, look, there are two ways to write on award shows.

I love them, by the way, because we grew up with yeah comedy variety yeah uh flip wilson absolutely sunny and shared johnny cash tony orlando all that tony orlando and don yeah and uh so when i first started doing them you had these producers like don misher did you ever do anything no misher no it's like a pro he did he did the super bowl show he does all he's just like unbelievable professional. Yeah. And I loved it because there are all these different elements, but you can either be

the host writer, you know, like when Rock did the Academy Awards, I wrote for him. Yeah. I did when Ellen did, I wrote for her. The host gets his or her own writers, and then you can be the show writer, which is just where you're writing for presenters and all that stuff. Right. So it's— And don't you also have like just sort of this, you know, this grab bag of jokes that, you know, you could pitch to any presenter almost? You try to tailor—you know, it's interesting.

When you're writing for presenters, they usually come in with an idea and you try to, you know, you pitch ideas on that. their persona. Yes, exactly. And, you know, and sometimes you come up

with just stuff. I think I'm more thinking about the roast. With roast, it's sort of like, you just make all these fucking roast jokes. Yeah, roast jokes are fun.

And it's sort of like, who wants this one? Yes, roast jokes are fun. Yeah. And, but yeah, I like those and yeah, are they the best? I mean, especially now, it's are fun. Yeah. But yeah, I like those. And yeah, are they the best?

I mean, especially now, it's just a dying animal. Movie star culture is different. It is. When we were younger, everything was smaller. So you got used to Jack sitting up front. Some of the old people were still alive. Now, I don't know who half the people are just by virtue of the business is so expansive. And you don't get to see everything.

Everything's different. And there's no mystery, you know, right. There's no mystery. And there's, and we don't hang the same thing we used to on movie stars. Yeah.

I mean, like when Jack stopped showing up, it was a drag, man. You know, like, I know. I mean,

it is. You're, you're absolutely right. There's, there's still, I don't know if you, I mean, I guess Clint's kind of gone now. I haven't seen him for a while, but there's still, I don't know, a few. I mean, I guess Clint's kind of gone now.

I haven't seen him for a while. But there's still, now we've got De Niro. It's hard to believe, right? Yeah. That De Niro is old. Yeah. But he seems to have gotten funnier and more willing to fool around than he used to. Oh, my God.

Yeah. So what did you do for Stewart's Kennedy Center thing? Oh, the Mark Twain Prize? So you just, you help the people who are giving the tributes with their speeches or whatever you want to call them. So the week before, you meet with them, like almost as a producer?

You kind of, yeah. Call them up? You hear them. Some of them just want you to write it for them, right? Yeah. And you give them, you basically give them a draft of what you think, and then you let them play with it. Right.

Others, you know, they come in and then ask you what you think. Right. But it's basically that. And then on- They need laughs. They're looking for laughs. They're looking for laughs. Sure.

Right? I mean, I've worked on, it's the American humor. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, this year it's on CNN, by the way. Uh-huh. So it's, and it's Adam Sandler. Yeah.

So. So it's going to be Spade and, you know, and Rock. I'm working on that one too. Yeah, who's on it? And that's on CNN. So, yeah, Rock, all of his buddies, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And those are fun to write on i mean i because

look at i'm old and i enjoy seeing all these people i've crossed paths sure it's just like best still alive it's the best right you know like just to say hi that's it exactly like you you did a lot of appearances on conan yeah right how many do you think you did on Conan? 50. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Conan's on this. Yeah. And I got to talk to him and I did, I only did a few, I did four Conans

back in the day. Yeah. And I got a great Conan story by the way. He's such a good guy. What? Oh, it's,

well, when Drake died, right? Yeah. He had four kids and he was going to take them to the Basketball Hall of Fame. And I've always been tight with Drake. So I didn't know what to do, you know?

I knew these kids from the time they were born. I don't know how to deal with this. They're young, too, when he dies, right? Yeah, I think. Yeah, they were young. Rudy was older, but everyone else is younger. From that first marriage? He had one from the first marriage and then three from his second.

Marnie, a beautiful woman, great woman. I'm still really tight with her and her family. So I go, all right, I'll take them to the Hall of Fame. Yeah. Which is where in Massachusetts? The Basketball Hall of Fame? It's not Boston. It's close.

But then we decide, well, why don't we, they love basketball. Why don't we go to some basketball arenas too? And then we got to figure out stuff to do during the day. You went to the garden and stuff? Went to the garden, went to Philly, D.C.,

the garden, the Boston Garden, Madison Square Garden, and where the Nets used to play. Yeah. So, but then you had to figure out stuff to do during the day. Sure, sure. So, we get to New York and I go, well, I know guys at Conan. Yeah.

I'll take them to a TV taping. Rudy loves Conan. Yeah. Conan is Rudy's idol. Yeah. So, I, you know, Mike Sweeney sets it up for me. Sure, sure. Great guy. Yeah. And we go and hang out in the idol. Yeah. So I, you know, Mike Sweeney sets it up for me. Sure, sure. Great guy.

Yeah. And we go and hang out in the office. Yeah. During, before the show. Yeah. But I don't expect to see Conan. Right. I just want to show him the writers and how a TV show works.

Yeah. And I'm talking to Sweeney and Conan walks into the room. And I got these kids there and he just starts being funny. Yeah. And Rudy's just in heaven, right? Yeah. Because this is his idol. Yeah.

And Conan doesn't know about the circumstances. He doesn't know, even though I think, I don't know if Drake ever did a Conan or not. I don't think he did. I don't think he,

I think he was dead before. Yeah. Yeah. And so he's just being a good guy entertaining these kids. And then at the end of it, he goes at Rudy and he goes, hey, you want to come to the show tonight? Yeah. Rudy goes, yeah.

And so he arranges for us to be backstage. Yeah. And then right in the wings, Conan comes off stage. The first thing he does is ask Rudy, what'd you think? Yeah. And then Rudy goes, well, I really liked this. And he goes, yeah, I think I could have done this better. He has, he has this like normal conversation with Rudy. Yeah. Unlike, you know, Letterman would come off stage and go, uh, what'd you think? And then, you know, Rudy go, I think it's great. And Letterman go, well, I think it sucks. And then walk off. Right. Right. Conan has this great conversation with Rudy.

Yeah. About the comedy. Yeah. And then, you know, they bond and it's like this cool thing. Conan still doesn't know why we're there. Right.

That it was, you know, their dad. Was a comic. Was a comic. Committed suicide. Yeah. Committed suicide.

So, afterward, you know, we leave and that becomes, forget about the basketball hall of fame. That's the highlight of this trip is Conan. Just, I mean, Rudy was in heaven and I was in heaven and the kids, I mean, the kids are younger. They didn't know Conan was, but it was, it was cool. And you know, years later I used to go to it was cool yeah and you know years later i used to go to tracy's appearances on conan yeah i'd help whatever yeah and i told conan that and i said you you don't know what what a what a nice guy you are and then i explained that to him he goes well i try to do nice stuff but you didn't

know you were just being nice he genuinely at time, he genuinely wanted approval from the kids. Exactly. He's just like, here's some people. I'll make them laugh. And he was really funny in a conference room. Sure. So anyway, that was like. That's a sweet story.

Isn't that amazing? A nice thing. Yeah. So, you know, yeah, Conan. I've always found Conan really funny. So what are you working on now, man? I am, well, Lewis and I are going to go back out on the road. And by the way, that's still, I think when you're a comic, you, that's a stand-up.

That's what you feel most comfortable doing. So we're going to go back out on the road next month. And then I'm doing this Mark Twain, in the meantime, I'm doing this mark twain in the meantime i'm doing the mark twain prize with um uh for adam yeah and then uh i'm also uh writing on this it's called the show before the show on netflix yeah it airs right before rock's live concert yeah. That's a one-off? It's a one-off, yeah. And then, and that's, and we'll see what happens with that. And then, but I'm slowly,

you can feel yourself at a certain point. You know, there are no press conferences where you announce your retirement from show business. Yeah. You're just kind of slowly ushered to the door. Yeah. Yeah. By yourself, though.

You're the one who's ushering. Well, no. I think, you know, after a while. By yourself though, you're the one who's ushering. Well, no, I think, you know, after a while in show business, when you're our age, unless you've done what you've done and innovated and created your own thing, you're,

you become the people that you work with. Look at you as if you're a docent in a museum. It's that kind of like, Oh, I used to do something back in the day. And now he talks about it. Yeah. You know, that's what you're still doing back in the day, and now he talks about it. But you're still doing something.

I'm still doing something. I love it. I'll always write. I'll always try to do stand-up. I remember when I was in my 30s and 40s, and I'd see someone my age, and I'd just think, oh, yeah, what is that? Just be nice to him. Yeah, be nice to him. Talk about his kids because they're about my age. Well, no, but I don't think that's quite happening.

You still seem to be a... You just feel yourself kind of living from gig to gig. I'm, you know... But you're not desperate. I mean, you know, you... Right? Can't be. No, but I mean, you saved some bread.

You're not a dumb dumb. No, no, no, I'm not. No, I've done it... Look, I never expected... When I was in my 40s, by I mean, you saved some bread. You're not a dumb dumb. No, no, no. I'm not. No, I've done it. Look, I never expected. When I was in my 40s, by the way, I expected this thing to fizzle out. And so now I'm into my 60s and I feel like, well, when it dies, it dies. And I've had a great run. I don't know if you've ever seen the Ed Bradley interview with Bob Dylan.

Yeah, yeah. Isn't that brilliant? It's the best. Where he says, I did it once. Yes. Yeah, the best. That's the greatest thing ever. Like, aren't you sad that you can't write that song anymore?

He goes, no. I feel blessed that I was able to write it the first time. It's like, that's the right attitude. I love that whole Dylan interview, by the way. The idea of that, like, what, I'm the one who did it. Yeah, he was just, that's the right attitude. I love that whole Dylan interview, by the way. The idea of that, like, what, I'm the one who did it. Yeah, he was just, he's just, but Dylan's always been that way. He's always, it's so easy to get caught up in the show business bullshit. Dylan never did.

He always thought it was a big joke. Yeah. He never thought he was a singing prophet. Yeah. He was like, I like the right songs. He's a prankster, that guy. Yeah, he is a prankster. Yeah,

totally. I love Dylan, yeah. Well, it was great talking to you, buddy. Oh, it was fantastic,

thank you, and I hope I didn't blab too much. No, well, that's sort of what drives this thing. It's the non-blabbers

that I have a problem with. I can talk about comedy forever. Me too. I just love it, man. Well. We're blessed to do it.

Could you see yourself doing anything else other than comedy? No. You're one of those guys that there is no other choice. Yeah. I didn't. When things got dark and I was on my way down the fucking drain after that second divorce and before I started this, there wasn't some sort of like, I could always go do this. There was nothing else.

Because you get to a certain point in life where you're like, what else am I going to do? I'm not prepared to do anything else. Did you ever have a moment though when you, okay, I had one moment and I want to hear if you had this. In Kansas City,

I had to do a show. I was just new in the game. Yeah. Had to do a show in front of, I think it was eight people. The club owner made us go on. I was just new in the game. Had to do a show in front of, I think it was eight people. The club owner made us go on. It was horrible. It's a place called Stanford and so on. And I went home in this kind of, at least I had a hotel room. It wasn't a comedy condo, but I remember looking myself in the mirror. And I mean, looking in a mirror and asking, is this what you wanted

to do? Can you do this again can you get on stage tomorrow night and do this and then I I woke up and decided I could and then you know I didn't have a moment like that again that was my moment where I had to decide okay do you continue on or not did you ever have one of those early on? Early on, I just was so hard on myself and so compulsive and so hung up on, you know, just, you know, overcoming the fear enough to do it. Like, I don't even know what was driving me. But how do we do it now? I don't know, but I can never answer that. But back then, you know, I'm doing one-nighters in Boston and I'm an angry Jewish guy who's heady and I can't talk about anything casually. And I'm

yelling at people as an opening act in the middle of a disco floor with a microphone. And I'm like, I don't know who that fucking kid was or what it was, but I wasn't really thinking like, is this the right job for me? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Or I, it always came down to the question of, okay, do I have the courage to do this? Well, for me, it just became like, why the fuck can't I be that, the other, the guy who's making it? Oh, good for you. I never had that attitude. I never felt that I deserved it.

I always, I just. I don't know if I felt like I deserved it, but I knew I felt resentment towards people who were getting it. I couldn't understand why I couldn't. I just was, I don't know. I was always just, you know, if you ever think about it too much, you're standing up in front of people and making them strangers laugh. I don't, the more,

what I think about more is like, who the fuck would go to these places? Right, no, I think that too. I don't, like when you sit, when you're in an audience full of eight people, like how could you still sit there? Yeah. Because I used to see that all the time when you're starting out. Like there's 12 people in the room.

I would walk into that club and be like, what? We don't have to go to this show. There's nobody here. I know. I know. Do you, okay. Do you like your friends and family coming to see you? I know mine.

Over time, my dad gets a real kick out of it. That's great. Yeah, I don't like it. I used to hate it. I wouldn't let other comics in the room. I would perform at the cellar, and if a teller was sitting there, I'm like, could you just get out? I'm trying to do something.

I can't worry about whether you're going to like me or not. You know, I like my jokes. Yeah, me too. I don't want that. I don't want that. Something that's happened over the last few years, which I'm very happy about, is now I feel blessed that I get to make people laugh. It's not a survival thing for me anymore. It's like I love that we're all having a good time together.

I've grown. Like, after this last special, which is heavy in places, and it's behind me now because it's out there and it's doing okay. Now I'm like, there's something I'm enjoying about just playing with my point of view. And to see if I can talk about not so menacing things. I'm just back in the process. Within days of shooting the special, I didn't take any time off. I'm like, I've still got 30 minutes that I didn't put in there.

Maybe we can start building that out. You know, and like, I've just been, yes, I've been a little lighthearted about it, which is new. And it's, you know, it's 40 years in, so. But that's the frustrating thing about being an older writer. Yeah.

You know you can still outright these motherfuckers. But you're perceived as being, you know, you're used by date having passed but i find in stand-up i'm i have more things i want to try than ever before me too yeah like i like lately because there's like certain things like i very consciously you know i'm like i need to uh embrace my physical my physical comedy more. And I think in this special, it's there. There is a way to deliberately do physical timing. Some guys are

just natural. Look at Kevin James or somebody. He just... You're like, how do you do that? But I know I must have it in me. I have timing. So I was very intentional about playing with physical timing. And now there's part of me that wants to just do a whole clean hour of mundane shit, like

my version of Seinfeld in a way. Oh, that's great. No, I think try everything. That's my new thing. Because I love Nate Bargatze, and he's a guy who used to open for me, and he's truly funny. Not a filth word in it, and he's not provocative in a political way or any other way. Like he's not pushing envelopes, but he's so funny. It's like, and I've like, I'm not lazy, you know, but I'm dirty sometimes.

And I, you know, I, I, I push buttons. Like, is there a, is there a version of me that can just do a kind of pleasant, clean hour? just do a kind of pleasant clean hour well when we started out i mean i was clean when we started out because my whole objective was to do something on the tonight show or letterman i was never really clean i had to clean up all the time well i i did just because larry miller once asked me said well you know that joke now that joke needs the word fuck to get a laugh. You have to ask yourself, do you want the word fuck to get the laugh? Right. And it made sense to me. But then at a certain point I realized people are paying money to see you live. Why give them something that they can see on TV? Yeah. So, um, I get it, but, and, but there is an audience out there that wants to be entertained and doesn't want to hear curse words.

I get that too. But, you know, the reality is I think people come out and they want something a little special. And I could, by the way, I could. I find that a lot of times when they want that special thing, I'll try to disappoint them. Right. Aggressively. Right. Right.

Well, that's the side of a comic that we all have. You know? I mean, there are a few out there. Make them pay. I remember Vince Champ. He wasn't that way at all. Oh, Jim Vince. He's still in, he's in prison.

Oh, he's in prison, yeah. He's a horrible rapist. He was the nicest. I know, dude. He was the nicest guy on stage ever. He had like prop glasses and stuff like that. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was the nicest guy on stage ever. He had prop glasses and stuff like that. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it's not. His dark side would have been better if he just disappointed audiences occasionally. Right, exactly. As opposed to rape women in studios, colleges. Holy shit. Well, weird place to end, but. Yeah, sorry.

I shouldn't, yeah. Yeah, no, it's always the Vince Champ tag. Yeah. Well, good to talk to you, man. Mark, thank you. Right? That was solid. Solid.

Jeff has nothing to plug, but I love talking to the guy. Great guy. Hey, I forgot to tell you at the top, I watched some weird movie on Criterion with Ben Gazzara called The Strange One. It's sort of this character study of Machiavellian narcissistic personality disorder

and he looks, it's Ben Gazzara's first movie, and he looks insanely a lot like Ron DeSantis. It's called The Strange One. It's on Criterion right now. It's called The Strange One. It's on Criterion right now. It's a weird little movie. I recommend it highly.

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