WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1602 - Bruce Vilanch

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

Bruce Vilanch is best known for his time as the head writer of the Oscars, but he is actually a vestige of a fabled era of show business. Bruce talks with Marc about how he went from being a child actor to working at newspapers to writing jokes for Bette Midler. His skill at writing in other people’s voices led him to countless jobs as a joke-writer-for-hire, doing punch up for famous comedians like Lily Tomlin, George Carlin, Joan Rivers and others, as well as for many beloved and detested TV variety shows. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

System of a Down Wake up! Grabbers should put a little make up And Deftones With special guests Polyphia and Wisp Live in Toronto Rogers Stadium

September 3rd and 5th How do you own the world? How do you own the stars? Get tickets now at LiveNation.com Somewhere between the sacred silence Sacred and sweet And Deftones Rogers Stadium September 3rd and 5th.

For more, visit Systemofadown.com. During the holiday season as we head into a new year, it's time to think of others, but also yourself. Maybe you or someone you know experience addiction or mental health issues. Solutions are available with CAMH and with your help. CAMH is the Center for Addiction and Mental Health. I hope you'll take some time to visit camh.ca slash wtf to see what they're doing to make better mental health care for all a reality. And if you donate to CAMH from December 23rd to the 31st, before the year ends, your gift will be tripled

to make three times the impact in mental health care. Again, visit camh.ca slash WTF to hear stories of hope and recovery. Lock the gates! ["Fuck the Gets"] ["Fuck the Gets"] ["Fuck the Gets"] ["Fuck the Gets"] All right, let's do this.

How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What the fuckniks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron and this is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's that time of year.

I hope you're holding up. I hope everything's coming together. I hope you're getting into the mode, locked into the rhythm, locked into the vibe. If you have a family, I hope all the the gifts are coming together. I hope you're fortifying your brain and buttressing yourself for what's to come. I hope you've got your lies in order to keep everybody happy. I don't know. I don't pay much attention to it. You know, I don't have kids and I don't, you know, I don't know when Hanukkah starts, that's this week too.

I'm a bad Jew, but a Jew nonetheless. And I don't really know why I don't register it other than like, why is everything so quiet? Why is everything so slow? What's happening out there? Why am I not, What is going on? Is everyone okay? How come no one's texting me or calling me or including me in the thing? But that's happening on all levels right now. I don't know if it's my brain or if it's

real, but I don't know what happens during this time. This is a weird few weeks, the sort of Christmas to New Year's, even just post Thanksgiving. I don't, it gets me into a zone. I don't know if it's pensive or thoughtful or depressed. Now I'm going to go with pensive and thoughtful, which at times can feel like depression, depending on what you're being pensive and thoughtful about. But everything just sort of changes and slows down and the air feels heavy. The weight of the atmosphere kind of feels heavy, but I like it. There's a poetry to it all and I'm going to go out and sit in New Mexico and feel that,

be pensive and thoughtful, but not depressed. Not I'm going to reframe that. It's not depression, but not depressed. Not, I'm gonna reframe that. It's not depression, goddammit. Today on the show is Bruce Valanche. I guess he's best known as a comedy writer. He's specifically the guy who was the head writer for the Academy Awards. He was on Hollywood Squares a lot.

He wrote for dozens of comedians and singers and variety shows, but I just remember him, seemingly throughout my entire life, as just this haircut and glasses. It's very specific it doesn't change he had them when he was here but it was just it's a haircut specific and glasses. I don't know what you would call the haircut it's sort of a mop top blonde and he usually wears very colorful glasses, but he's a very funny guy in a very old school way and he's been around a lot of years and he had a lot of great stories about the evolution from, you know, writing for club entertainers and then into variety

shows and then into writing for comics and writing for the Oscars. Old time stuff and it's great. I love talking to these guys because they it's a different time. It was a different time when show business and comedy was innately Jewish in its rhythm and in its practitioners and now it's it's hard to find a Jew around. You know I don't know where they're all going but the entire sort of spectrum of comedy has gotten more diverse and eclectic and interesting, but it just seems as show business contracts,

so does the sort of rhythm of the Jews of yore. My 2025 tour kicks off in Sacramento, California at the Crest Theater on Friday, January 10th. I'm at the Napa Uptown Theater on Saturday, January 11th. Fort Collins, Colorado, Lincoln Center Performance Hall on Friday, January 17th. Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on Saturday, January 16th.

Santa Barbara, California, the Lobero Theater on Thursday, January 30th. San Luis Obispo at the Fremont Center on Friday, January 31st. Monterey, California at the Golden State Theater on Saturday, February 1st. And then I'm coming to Iowa, Missouri, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, and Michigan. Gonna be adding some dates in the Northeast as I head into a recording a special you can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets

Yes, so I'm just trying to I'm coming down man. I have to frame things Properly, I don't know if you have that issue But if I have a little bit of free time I'm gonna think I'm not doing enough or I'm not good at what I'm doing or that I'm over or that I'm not creative anymore. I have a full list of things I go to that I can use as bats to beat the shit out of myself when I have any sort of downtime. But the truth of the matter is,

this last year, I just have to see it in terms of whatever my goals were or whatever I wanted to do or Saw in my life at some point that I would like to do and acknowledge what has happened What went on this year? I haven't I had to put my tour on hold a while back Because I did some acting and I wanted to do acting and it was important to me to sort of figure out Whether that's something I want to do with my life, whether I enjoy it, whether I'm good at it and whatnot.

It's creative and it's something that, you know, I was curious about. So this year it just seems that I was doing that. And it's not that comedy took a backseat or just was that I wasn't doing it. I was, but I wasn't doing it compulsively and constantly like I always do. But I was doing this other thing. And I just got back from New York after shooting that part in the Bruce Springsteen movie. I gotta say it was really kind of great

having a bit of an in with the boss because I interviewed him to sort of come out of the set. And if I felt like it, or if I felt like it was okay to sit down next to Bruce Springsteen and chit chat. I wanna say again, what an amazing experience that was, because you look at the scope of that guy's work as an artist, and he is a real artist, and to just hang out with him as a person as an older person and

You know just kind of Be in that be in the light The dark light of Bruce Springsteen was quite was quite something so the meat I Look, I feel okay You know, I feel okay. You know I feel alright The vegan thing has been going on almost two years And I don't know I saw some reel on Instagram of some Armenian ghost kitchen that was doing some sort of

Brisket that looked like some kind of Armenian pastrami sure enough It was some form of fucking barbecue that was gonna make me start thinking man That's gonna be what I eat when I eat the meat. But I pulled back from it. Today's episode is sponsored by Squarespace. We've been telling you for years that the best way to create a beautiful website is with Squarespace. And now there are even more Squarespace features

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Let's talk to funny guy. Let's have some fun. So happy holidays. And I'm excited to share this conversation with you. Bruce Vellanche has a new podcast called Oscars. What were they thinking? Which you can get on all podcast platforms. He's a real deal.

Funny guy, comedy writer, a lot of experience, a lot of stories. This is me talking to Bruce Vellanche. The She Soars podcast is an absolute must for conversations about sexual and reproductive health and rights. We are a group of passionate young women from across Canada who are exploring global issues that affect girls' lives and choices and how they relate to Canadian youth.

Tune in to season three of the Shaysores Podcast for more hot topics and inspiring speakers from around the world and discover ways we can all take action. Her rights, her voice. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Google Pixel. I'm Jessi Krigsjank. I host the number one comedy podcast called Phone a Friend. I also have three kids. I need help making every day easier. So I switched to Google Pixel. It's a phone powered by Gemini, your personal AI assistant. Gemini can

help you summarize your unread emails, suggest what to make with the food in your fridge, and it helped me achieve a family photo where everyone is smiling at the camera. I didn't think it was possible, but it is with Google Pixel 9. Learn more at store.google.com. Roger Stadium September 3rd and 5th. Get tickets now at LiveNation.com System of a Down and Deftones. Roger Stadium September 3rd and 5th. For more visit SystemofaDown.com Well, how are you adapting to the world? How's the swell adaptation?

Well, I got rid of my fins. But it gets to a point, right, where you just sort of like, you just, you live the life you live and fuck it. That's exactly right. There's nothing else you can do. I mean, I would try, but try to keep up. I mean, you know, like everybody else, hello Portugal. All of my seven, you know, figure friends are going to Portugal.

Are they? No, a few. I mean, but that started a while back. That started in New York. Right, that was the, you can buy your way in business. Yeah, right. I mean, I thought about that, not that I necessarily have the money, but I mean, but that started a while back. That started in New York. Right, that was the, you can buy your way in business. Yeah, right. I mean, I thought about that, not that I necessarily have the money, but I mean, I don't know anyone in fucking Portugal.

I don't speak the language. I don't even know what they eat there. Exactly right. So the amount of loneliness available for me in Portugal is relative to the amount of discomfort I'll feel in authoritarianism. And I'll take our TV stations. Exactly.

I'll take the streaming. Most of the people I know in Portugal live online Oh, yeah, what else they can do then well, they don't speak Portuguese and they're you know, they're they're ex they're expats But it's not like you know Paris in the 20s. I don't think no, I mean, they're probably up in a via Yeah, and they're sitting in a room Well, they wind up going to the Algarve and Porto and places where the tourists go. A lot of California people move to Porto, like in 16.

Well, that sounds like a nice week. Yeah, exactly. No, I'm interested. I'm staying here and fighting the fight for whatever that means, whatever that's worth. What does that mean to you? Well, I'm a gay activist, I suppose. I mean, I'm a gay icon, so I might as well be an activist.

And it's on you to do that. Well, yeah, and you just have to, there has to be a loyal opposition and there has to be a resistance. And so, you know, I'm happy to be a part of it. Isn't that interesting though, that there are certain groups, I guess you would call them marginalized groups

that have built their entire communities on resistance. So the idea of locking into a more active resistance is, you would think, muscle memory. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's always when religion gets involved, when a government is being motivated by religion, it's always bad for

people who aren't religious. Right. Yeah. Which is, of course, the whole idea of America was religious people created a place for people who were not religious as well as people who are. The people that are were always kind of full on whack jobs. Exactly. Exactly.

But do you sense like, you know, when you're coming over, I'm 61. So somehow or another, your head has been familiar to me my entire life. Wow. One place or the other, you know, mostly on television. Of course. That's what I tell people. I'm Hollywood Squares. I was to the left of Whoopi, if that's possible.

Which version of Hollywood Squares? of Whoopi, if that's possible. But that was which version of Hollywood Squares was this? The Whoopi version, the iteration of the late 90s, from like 96 to 2002, Tom Bergeron was the host. I just remember Paul in that Square from when I was a kid. It just seemed, I guess what I want to talk to you about, it seemed like when I was a kid, and I don't know if it was relative to me being a kid, that show business was a fun little town.

That young people seemed to know each other, and these guys, the people that you saw in show business, even on the roasts then, they all seemed to live around the corner from each other, and we all knew who they were. That's true, it was a much smaller universe. Yeah, and I remember seeing some of the shows you wrote for, like what, Sonny and Cher?

And did you write for Tony Orlando? No. No, that was the one? That was the one I did. I was doing another show that summer, that Fred Silverman, who ran CBS at the time, he ran all three networks at one point. Wow.

Individually. I was hoping he'd take over PBS to see what he would do there. But he had- Make education fun? He believed in the group host format. Yeah. Donnie and Marie, Sonny and Cher, Tony Orlando and all. I came out here with Manhattan Transfer, and we did a summer series, and Tony Orlando was

across the hall. The Manhattan Transfer, that's what got you to LA? That got me to LA. Okay, so let's go back then. So where do you grow up? Patterson, New Jersey. I know Patterson. You do? Sure. I grew up in, my grandmother lived in

Pompton Lakes. Oh, that's right. Yes, very, very, very rural when I was growing up. Yeah, yeah. One of the first of the suburbs. Right, that's where my mother came from. So my grandmother would go to Patterson for some specific Jewish something. Yeah. I don't remember what. A lot. Yeah, there was a place, maybe fish. Mike Bar Mitzvah, maybe it could have been. Temple of Emanuel. But Patterson's got good history, William Carlos Williams, a couple boxers, right?

You know, even then, I mean, we kept saying to ourselves, it's dying on the vine. It was called the Silk City, it was a textile center and it got much cheaper in the south to make the silk. But I remember growing up that there were still some textile factories and they would dump dye in the Pasaic River. And we used to say, anything you catch there is a rainbow trout. That was the first comedy joke. They looked like pride fish. Whose joke was that? Your dad's? Your mom's?

That was my very own. Really? Yeah, they didn't joke about such things. No. No, but they did have a great set. My mother was a showgirl monkeh. She really wanted to be a performer. Were like a rockette.

Yeah, no, she didn't have the legs for that. She was a little too short, but she wanted to, she just loved to perform. and she married a doctor instead. And my father, of course, optometrist. Oh, that's one of the easier ones. Well, because he would have been an ophthalmologist, but he couldn't afford medical school. But his parents were optometrists, which is bizarre.

His mother was the only female optometrist or the first female optometrist in New Jersey. In New Jersey. Yes, the Optometric Association gave her a ribbon or something right back. It seems like a very practical level of doctoring. Yeah, and I worked in his office and that's where I got my affinity for glasses.

Which, I'm wearing red glasses now but they have no prescription in them because. You don't even need glasses. I had cataract surgery so when you get cataract surgery, they put lenses in. They do the lasers? No, with lenses. And they say, which eye would you like for distance and which for close-up? And I said, just give me the distance because I wear glasses anyway.

I'll get reading glasses. And it worked out? Yeah, it's worked out great. But I started, my love of all that, at my father's office when the crazy frames would come, we called them the fat lady frames. They're kind of like Dem Edna. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love those and I would take them home and he would say, which patient took, why are these missing? I don't know. I think it was Mrs. Shapiro. I think that she decided she needed sunglasses for the shore.

Pete Slauson Have you noticed that aging Jewish men, as they age, their glasses get bigger? Pete Slauson Yeah. Pete Slauson It's very weird. Pete Slauson Easier to find. This is my theory. Pete Slauson You know, as they're grappling around the nightstand, big, big hunker Aristotle Onassis glasses. Pete Slauson Yeah, it's to be the size of an anchor. I know exactly. When I first came out, Irving Lazar, who was a big agent.

I remember him. I think it was called the Swiftie. Swiftie, it was known for these gigantic glasses. Yeah, yeah. And now everyone, like I found myself buying a pair. I'm like, am I at that age now? Is this the turn that you take? These aren't them. No, no, you're like Tom Cruise aviators. Yeah, these are aviators, but the other ones I got are just bulky horn rooms and it's not quite right yet.

I gotta wait a couple years. I think, I think. So, but you know, when you're white and pasty faced, red glasses really make your face pop. No, no, they work for you. So your mom wants to, is she performing? Do you go to the city? Do you see Broadway shows?

Oh, she would do a lot of benefits. Yes, we would see every Broadway show. My father put money in musicals, he loved musicals. Into Broadway musicals as an investment? As an investment. He was the tired businessman who loved to go and watch The Clowns, Yura Mostel and Phil Silvers and Burt LaR and people like that.

And of course, that's where I got it. I mean, looking at all of them. You got to see all those guys. Yeah, I got to see them all live on Broadway and I thought, gee, this is what I want to do. Where does Groucho factor in? Well, Groucho was on television. Right.

He seemed like a... Because we were, the Marx Brothers movies, that was earlier. But when You Bet Your Life, right? He was on You Bet Your Life. And he was so quick? So quick, I mean hysterical. Did you ever meet that guy?

Yeah, I met him later in life when he was slower, but, and he was with Aaron Fleming, who earned every dime. The woman who he wound up with, who sued the estate, whatever. But he was, he had, he was sour. By the time I met him, he was, you know, he wasn't the kind of the groucho, the flicking cigar and dancing around.

So- Sour because of age? I think so, age and whatever else. Diminishing relevance? Yeah, and whatever hadn't happened that he wanted to have happen. I don't know exactly what that was. I don't know if it, for some people,

that it's ever gonna happen, even when they have everything. Yeah. It's crazy, right? Yeah. It's a mindset. What else could he want? What? Fucking Groucho Marx. Exactly. And he had Dick Cavett like it. And his speech. Yeah. He could do Dick Cavett all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And they, but I guess, you know,

when, you know, he, when they ran the Carnival, they don't want to be suddenly relegated to the sideshow. Sure. Right. So when do you start working as in show business? I was a child actor. I was never a child star. What'd you do? We'd be having this conversation in rehab. Yeah, right. I did summer stock, a lot of summer stock. I went to a camp that was run by Ted Mack,

who was the Simon Cowell of his day. It was Ted Mack's original amateur hour, which he had inherited. Was that in Jersey? It was amateur hour, which he had inherited from a guy named Major Bowes who did a radio show. And he brought amateurs on. He's famous for rejecting Elvis because Elvis was too dirty. And Ann Margaret, who I worked with for years as a friend, was on the show and she lost to a woman who played Lady of Spain on a leaf. Well, there you go.

The crowd went. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. That used to be a thing. Yeah, yeah. But he was a big deal, Ted Mack. It was a big television show. And he ran this camp because he couldn't have kids, and he wanted to be surrounded by children.

And it was like fame in the Berkshires. And so I was a child actor and he farmed us out. We did commercials, we did summer stock, different places. So he was the manager as well, basically? Mentor. Okay, so you had another agent. You're right, exactly. But I never really made a living at it, but my parents enabled it because they saw I was happy

when I was doing it. So they said, let him go perform. Their only concern was that I couldn't make a living. They kept saying, you need something to fall back on. And they said, why don't you be a, and I started writing for the high school newspaper. And that was working out well. And they said, oh, that's great.

You could work for a newspaper because newspapers will never die. Ever. No, no, you know, they just, Creskin is gone and so are newspapers. It took a while. Yeah, ever. No, no. You know, they just, they, they, Kreskin is gone and so are newspapers. It took a while. Yeah, it took a while. But, um...

So you studied journalism? So I studied journalism and theater at the Ohio State University. Ohio State. Yes. Okay. Buckeyes. Yeah. Uh-huh.

How was that for you? That, I loved it. It was great. It was, it was a five-year, you know, everybody was in a stay out of Vietnam program. You know, it was not... Take the extra years. I'm 77 years old and I'm here to tell you that, you know, Bill Clinton got away. They all found a way. Dan Quayle found a way. George Bush found a way.

Yeah. Trump found a way. Nobody wanted to go. Yeah, nobody... Yes, private heel spurs. Nobody wanted to go. And that's the whole other show. But, so I was there for five years and got two degrees in theater and journalism. What was that, like, what, 68 through 70 something? I was there at 65 to 70. In fact, my graduation in 70 was canceled

because we tried to burn down the ROTC building. Now, I didn't because I was the editor of the school paper, the lantern. Sure. You were there with a pad. I was there exactly right, being fair and balanced. So that's why the graduation was canceled. It was canceled and Walter Cronkite got a kill fee. And when I got to meet him later on in life, I told him, he said, yeah, I was hoping there

would be more riots that spring. I wouldn't have to work. But did you feel at that time, like, were you involved with comedy in any way? Was there things coming through the campus? Yeah, I was acting there and I was writing a column for the paper before I was the editor. That was a… But was like Krasner around doing the realist and that kind of stuff? Yes, he was.

They were in San Francisco. Yeah. And you were aware of of stuff? Yes, you would. They were in San Francisco. Yeah. And you were aware of that stuff? Yes, absolutely. Because it seemed like there was a time, like, you know, post Lenny Bruce where comedians, not unlike the rest of the country, were starting to adapt to the new world of free thinking. That's right. When it was really free thinking.

We always, there was a humor magazine called The Sundial. Yeah. And I wasn't, I was on The Lantern, I couldn't be on The Sundial, they were arch enemies. But The Sundial was edited by a guy we called Jovio Bob, Jovio Bob Stein, who became R.L. Stein of Goosebumps. What was that? Goosebumps is a children's series of books

that have become movies. Yeah, okay. And he's like phenomenally rich from this thing. Obviously I took the wrong path. You seem to do all right. And he had a girlfriend named Springfield Rifle. Her real name was Phyllis Rifle of course. Yeah, yeah.

So it was that time. The tone of the thing. So the hippie thing was happening? The hippie thing was, yes. It was, we were coming out of Beatnik and into hippie. Yeah, yeah. So that was the transition in 65. Yeah, right.

So by the beginning, when Dylan went acoustic. Sure. When Dylan went electric, I mean. So by the time you graduate and come back to New York, it's a different city. It was, actually, I went right to Chicago. I got a job on the Chicago Tribune of all places. Okay. Which was actually I went right to Chicago. I got a job on the Chicago Tribune of all places. Okay. Which was really conservative newspaper, but they liked my style. I used to say I was

the first person in history of the Tribune to ask Yom Kippur off and they had to look it up. So I felt I had made my mark. But I was there. You liked Chicago? I loved it. I still love it. Did you go, were you out looking at the Second City people or Del Close or any of those people? I lived next door to Second City in a place called Piper's Alley, which was like the hippie mini mall. And Second City was there and the Belushi brothers

and the Murray brothers and John Candy. They were all kids? Every year, we were all around the same age. Was Del Close around? Del was directing. Yeah, we were all around the same age. Was Dell close around? Dell was directing. Yeah, at Second City. At Second City. Before he branched off.

That's right. Yeah, he had several side hustles as well. Yeah. And he was like the bridge between Compass Players, which was Nichols and May. Shelley Berman. Shelley Berman and those guys. But they were down in Hyde Park.

An older generation. We were in the old town. Right, so it was a generational difference. It was, and Dell was kind of the bridge because he had come from that and was directing these new kids. Did you get involved with it? I wanted to, but the paper wouldn't let me.

They said that you have to choose, and I thought, I'm staying with the paper. I was happy doing what I was doing at the paper. But you'd go down there and watch? I would go next door all the time to see the thing. I just didn't trust myself, I thought, I'm staying with the paper. I was happy doing what I was doing at the paper. But you'd go down there and watch? I would go next door all the time to see the thing. I just didn't trust myself, I guess, because I had morphed out of child acting because I wasn't childlike.

I looked 40 and I had a deep voice and I was heavy and I was always getting auditioning opposite people who were authentically those things. I was a deep voice and I was heavy and I was always getting auditioning opposite people who were authentically those things. I was a kid. So I didn't trust myself as an actor. So I was happy to be on the paper covering and I would do commercials and I started doing a routine every night at a club called Punchinello's

where I'd go on like at 11 o'clock and do the news of the day. And it was like a piano bar and people who were in shows Punchinello's where I'd go on like at 11 o'clock and do the news of the day. Oh, okay. So it was like a piano bar and people who were in shows in Chicago would hang out there. Stars, I mean, people, road companies. There were also a lot of people who would come to promote things and I was always interviewing them.

That was my gig at the Trib. Oh, yeah. So I got to know a lot of them. Were you doing sort of like one-liners? Yeah. For the news? Yeah, I was doing one-liners for the news, yes. And just generally telling stories. And you got good laughs? I did, oh yeah, I had fun.

And I played Mr. Kelly's, which was the... That's the place. I did, I opened. I opened for Lonican Trail at Mr. Kelly's. And I had a great time. But I also, I didn't think that was exactly what I wanted to do either, and what had happened was I met Bette Midler. Okay, well wait, Mr. Kelly's though,

like were you frequently, as a reporter, did you have to go watch all those shows? Did you go see like Driesen and those guys? I did, Tom Driesen and Tim Reed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tim and Tom, yeah, absolutely. And everybody came through there. I just went to, I was in Chicago doing a show last year

and there's a big exhibit about Mr. Kelly's. Well, one of the kids of the original owners did a documentary, which I'm in, which is all about, called Live at Mr. Kelly's. And so, and he's kind of been promoting the legend, the lore, Marion Thelon, that's what their name. But see, like to me- Marion Falwell, that's what their name. Okay, but like to me, like even that, what you come out of, like, I can't be nostalgic for it

because I didn't live in it. Right. But it just seemed like it was an entirely different vibe and it has to be not just generational, but just how there was something special about things, I think then. I agree. I think there was a certain kind of sophistication

that Hugh Hefner marketed. Oh, yes. Came out of Chicago. He was a marketer in Chicago. Sure. Playboy was a marketing ploy. Yeah. And there were people who were actually living that life.

Of course, everybody then tried to emulate that, but it was it was a Lot a lot smarter when you were actually in the middle of it But they did it did come out of all of that, but the whole that whole nightclub scene has gone away Yeah, no, it's all the and also there was a time where that kind of like urban intellectual kind of held court You know everywhere. Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah, we're Bob Newhart sure court, you know, everywhere. Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah, where Bob Newhart, sure.

Yeah, and just Dick Cavett, and there was a time where, yeah, there was a full range of, it just show business was so, it just seemed smaller and more exciting. It was. It was smaller and more exciting, and yeah, I mean, you could go into it clinically.

I mean, multinationals came in and bought the big studios and the television networks. Yeah, sure, yeah. But multinationals came in and bought the big studios and the television networks. But then cable came in and then the internet came in and apps and the universe got gigantic. So, and reality television. Yeah, and then, but then. Making stars out of people who are on a date. Right, but the ability for ability for, I think culturally,

whether you liked it or not, you had three options. Yeah. And, and. Oh, right, on TV, yeah. So there was an intimacy to that. If you didn't see it, okay, fine, but most people did. Right. You know what I mean?

So there was a communal element to it. Now you don't know what the fuck anyone's watching. Or even how to get it on your phone. It's true, I mean, if they draw three million people to a show, they consider it a hit. Yeah, and back in the day, what was it, like 25 million? Yeah, I mean, 17 minimum to stay on the air. You had to get like at least... See, that's a big difference.

At least, if you could get a third, 33, then you were like a boffo. Over 30 was a boffo smash. But in order to stay on, you had to get, I think it was at least 17, a rating of 17, which is, I don't know how many people that represents. It's all fragmented now. So when do you, so you moved back, you moved to New York? No, I went to Chicago from Columbus, Ohio. But you met, where'd you meet Bette?

I met Bette in Chicago. She was doing, she'd been on Broadway doing Fiddler on the Roof and she would go down the street to the Improv and Bud Friedman ran the Improv. In New York. In New York. On 44th. That's right. And next to Dyke Lumber, which was the sort, no end of inappropriate jokes.

She'd bring her Dyke Lumber and it was that kind of era. And she would get up and she was the only singer, she would get up and sing and occasionally she would say something. And he called me and said, I got her booking at Kelly's. Who called you Bud? I knew Bud because Bud represented Freddie Prinze. And I had gotten to know Freddie had come to Chicago, to Kelly's, and I had gone to see him. He opened for Jonah Jones, who was a jazz musician, and that crowd was not interested in Freddie Prinze at all.

What did you think of him? I thought he was wonderful. I mean, I had never seen anything. He was a Hungarian Puerto Rican, he was a Hungarican. I thought his viewpoint was brilliant and fresh. And I wrote about him. And it was like the only good review he got, I think. And Bud called me and said, listen,

if you like Freddie, you're gonna love this girl. And that was before Freddie went to LA, probably. That was before Freddie, right before he went to LA. And I will tell you the story. He bombed at Kelly. And then he went to LA and he got Chico and the man almost immediately. And then he went to LA and he got Chico and the Man almost immediately.

And then Mitzi took him in. And a year later, he was a huge star. Yeah. And he came back to Kelly's as a headliner. Yeah, fuck you. And he went out, did the same exact act word for word, he had done the year before, and they screamed and cheered, because they had come to see the star of Chico

and the man who they already loved. And he came back, and the first thing he said to me when he came off stage was, you're the only one who knows what I did. And so I loved him from that point, and his death was so tragic. I mean he was obviously, you know demons. Yeah, the demons will get you. Yeah Bud asked me to go look at that and and that open for Jackie Vernon. I love Jackie Vernon He's wonderful. He was one of the first guys

The one the first guys I saw as a kid that made me want to do my parents took me to see Jackie Vernon when I was like 11 in Albuquerque at the Hilton Hotel Lounge. It changed my life. Right, it's true. He was so... He was so deadpan and perfect. With the clicker. With the clicker, yeah. When I was a kid, I was unwanted. Now I'm wanted in 13 states.

That's a good job. One thing after another. But she was a little too rocky for his crowd. In fact, they built her a rocky songstress, Bette Midler, yes, that's how she was built. What does rocky mean? Well, she sang some rock and roll. Oh, okay, rock, yeah. What I loved about her was that her musical taste

ran the whole gambit. She sang every period. She sang rock and roll, she sang standards. Yeah. And she took stuff that was, throw away, like, Do You Want to Dance, which was a little boppy jitterbug. Do, do, do, do you want to dance? And she turned it into this erotic song of longing.

And of course, you know that she wasn't talking about dancing when she asked if you want to dance, baby? And I thought this is amazing because she took all of these things. I mean, she was at the head of the whole nostalgia thing that took the Andrews Sisters numbers, which were wonderful, but they were considered throwaway music.

Is that part of the Manhattan transfer thing too? Transfer followed exactly in her wake. In fact, she had a dresser, Fayette Hauser, who was a fabulous woman, who was the only female coquette in San Francisco. Yeah. And her brother, Tim Hauser, started the group and she kept huddling Beth to go see them.

And Beth went to see them and loved them. And she got Ahmed Erdogan to come down, who was running Atlantic Records, her label. Sure. And he got them a record deal. And then her manager got Fred Silverman to see them and put them on television. And that's how you got to LA.

That was how I got to LA. But with Bette, I mean, did you sort of focus, like, what was the relationship? Well, she said, I wrote a column about her, and she said, that's a very funny column, you're a funny writer, and I said, well, you should talk more on stage. And she said, you got any lines?

And so all this stuff was local jokes, about Mayor Daley and stuff happening in Chicago that week. And it became kind of a hallmark. I started writing for her whenever she would tour, I would go out with her. I was a television critic at that point. And I would call the other TV critics who I'd met out with her. I was a television critic at that point, and I would call the other TV critics, who I'd met on junkets, and I'd say,

what's happening in Cincinnati that we can make fun of? And so she'd come in armed with this local material, and the audience would kind of go, what the, how does she know that? Because this was not, we were not living in the internet. Exactly right. You had to get local news guys to tell you what was up. Exactly right.

So that became one of the things that she became famous for and a lot of people heard and they began calling me and asking me to work for them. So I was writing for a whole bunch of people by the time I came out here for the transfer. So you like, you cut your teeth on, you know, doing topical humor for Bette Miller, who like to me in my mind,

because I don't know the story that you just told me, was always just a firecracker of jokes. Oh, well yeah, but when she first had, she had her hairdresser, Bill Hennessey, who was Mr. Girard at the Bergdorf's, and he wrote for her. And then I started writing for her. And she said, Bud Friedman said to me one day,

he said, you know, when she came in and when she started, she could only, only her hairdresser was writing for her. And now she's really famous. And everybody who writes for her is basically a hairdresser. Yeah. Now, was that the extent of your relationship with Bud? We were friendly for years. I mean, he moved out here and opened the place,

opened the club and I would go out there now and again. And we recorded a comedy album called Mud Will Be Flung Tonight that Beth did in the early 80s. How'd that do? It did okay. I mean, it's a funny album and Mark Shaman wrote some songs for it with Jerry Blatt, who was another long gone, unfortunately, collaborator.

And it did fine, but you know, this was, it was kind of a bookmark. Her husband, she'd just gotten married, her husband said, because no movies were happening. So he said, why don't you do what you do, what's great, do comedy. So we did the comedy and at that point, the Jews bought Disney. Michael Eisner came in with Jeffrey Katzenberg and they brought her in and they put a movie together with three people who couldn't get arrested, Richard Dreyfus, Nick Nolte and Bette. It was down and out in Beverly Hills and they put a movie together with three people who couldn't get arrested, Richard Dreyfuss, Nick Nolte, and Bette. It was down and out in Beverly Hills. And it was a huge hit,

and suddenly she was a movie star again. Masersky. Yeah. Yeah, great movie. It's a Masersky and Tucker. Very funny movie. So okay, so then you get set up with the Manhattan Transfer. Yeah.

And then that becomes, so this is like sort of a heightened, what's the word, the cabaret show, right? The transfer. Well, wouldn't it be that, wouldn't that be the sort of umbrella of what that kind of, didn't she kind of take cabaret to a different place? Yeah. Oh, I believe she did, yeah.

Yeah, and that sort of established that kind of banter of songs and piano and what the Manhattan Transfer. The Transfer TV show, ideally, I think what Fred Silverman was thinking was that it would be, they would host and have guests and do sketches and all that kind of stuff, but we had no money. We had no money. Were they that kind of talent?

No, they were not. They were not sketch performers. Some of them, I mean, Some of them weren't even, they were studio musicians. I mean, they were great, but they weren't great live performers. But they became, in the course of their, they realized that they had to give the audience everything.

But we didn't have any money, so we would bring on one comic that we could get for cheap. Always. Always. And we only did four episodes of it. Who were the comics? David Brenner. Sure.

They were all new. Gabe Kaplan. Yeah, sure. Steve Landesberg. Oh, yeah. And then the fifth one, we said we have to have somebody whose name is recognizable. So Professor Irwin Corey. So all Jews?

All Jews. We always had Carl Ballantyne, but that was an extra special thing, it just kind of flew up. Oh, I remember him. And they said, how about another music acts? And yeah, we didn't have any money, so we got Bob Marley and the Whalers.

Wow. I know, they floated into the studio. I bet they did. That must have been like... Scared the shit out of the network sensor. I mean, she was crazy. It must have been amazing though. It was because they'd never been on television before.

Yeah. And. The rawness of it must have been just stunning. Especially in contrast to the transfer. Yeah. But I mean, it gives you some idea of what they're, they had the same kind of eclecticism that that has. Yeah.

They did music, and in fact, if you look at the transfer catalog, I defy you to find any group that's done the diversity of music. Well, they had a... I mean, a Brazilian album, they had a Vocalese album, they had... Well, that was like, it's interpretive. I mean, they had a set way of approaching music. Right.

So they could do anything. Right. Well, it's four-part harmony, of course, the foundation, but they were unafraid. They had started as a kind of nostalgia act, and then they became a jazz act, and then they had a huge hit with a cover of Chanson d'Amour, which was a big song in the 50s,

that made them stars all over the world. So when you came out here with them, that began your relationship with the big time show business? Yes, as it were. Because you produced a show. Well, no, I wrote. You just wrote it. I just wrote it with a producer. Joel Silver was one of the writers on the show,

believe it or not. Yeah, yeah. Um, uh, and then, uh then I was out here, you know, I'd always said if I had an agent and a job, I would come out here and I had both, so I came out. And I started writing Variety Television. It was, of course, the last gasp of Variety Television because cable came in.

Is that what did it? Yeah, because I think that there's been some weird nostalgic attempts at Variety and I think it's gonna happen again. I think my friend Nate Bargazzi is doing a Christmas special. Well, there are the one-offs that people can do. But it was really a set thing. I mean, Flip Wilson, we used to watch Flip Wilson.

But two things happened. One was that Cable came in and if you wanted to see a performer, you could see them 24-7. You wanted to see Madonna, she was on 24-7. But in addition to that, SNL came on. And what they could get away with on Saturday nights at 1130, 1030 Central, was so much more than you could do in any, between 8 and 11. Well, that was almost like he blew up the form. Exactly. Because everything suddenly seemed square.

Because the stuff that was considered hip, I mean, the brunette sketches, the hip ones and all of that stuff, yeah. But there was an attempt, it seemed like- It was kind of in the shade, thrown into the shade by that because it was audacious. But it was, I guess what it was is that, whatever happened in the shade, thrown into the shade by that because it was audacious. But it was a pro, I guess what it was is that, whatever happened in the 60s was sort of appropriated

by show business, by kind of doing their version of it with Sonny and Cher or Tony Orlando or Flip Wilson even. Because Carol Burnett was kind of old school, so they're still making references like Laugh-In used to. Well, the Smuggler Brothers were at the top of the food chain. That's right, but that's the late 60s, right? Yeah, right, exactly. So now we're already a little further into it,

and even the hip interpretation of what the kids want is dead. That's right. And then Saturday Night Live comes. So where do you go from Manhattan? What do you do for the first gigs? Those shows, the variety TV series and shows got replaced by award shows, tributes, pageants. Which variety shows did you write for? Donnie and Marie.

How was that? I said, I used to say it was like falling into a vat of stewardesses, but we don't use that term anymore. Everybody was just so nice. They were just nice. They were nice and they were devout Mormons. Were they all Mormons? Were they surrounded by Mormons? No, they were surrounded by Jews. I mean, you know, variety television was engineered

by Jews. And so they had to put up with us, you know, and they- I remember them being cute and able to do comedy, no? Yeah. Oh yeah, they were adorable. The two of them were great and they had timing and all of that kind of stuff. But I mean, they were heavily, the parameters were very narrow because they were Mormons. And Marie was a kid. She was underage when we started. And so there were things that they just

couldn't refer to or say or do more than any other show. Yeah. Because I also wrote the Brady Bunch variety hour. That seems wild. That was incredible. As time goes on, it turns out the Brady Bunch was kind of a pretty wild bunch of people.

Yeah. The onion layers are being peeled back. Yeah, over time. Yeah. When I go on podcasts, they asked me about, they're all on YouTube, the Brady Bunch. Yeah. My other Star Wars Holiday Special,

I wrote that, and the Paul Lynn Halloween Special, and they say, how did these happen? Kids ask me these things, and so I've written a book about how I wrote the worst TV shows in history. It's called, It Seemed Like a Bad Idea at the Time. It did. It is on pre-order at Amazon, dropping March 4th. There you go.

So I had to plug it in, but the Brady Bunch variety hour gets unbelievably discerning dissection in that book. Yeah. But they were, I think... Were they considered the worst TV shows ever? Oh, it's on lists. Oh, yeah. Somebody put that on the list. The Star Wars one was... Oh, yeah. Those are all on... Everybody's top 10 of the worst. Those three show up. But when you go into it, you go in in earnest, don't you? Oh, absolutely. Look, you know, we didn't know...

It was Fred Silverman's idea, and I believe he wanted the Partridge family, who were on their show an actual performing family. Weren't they about done by then? They were both kind of done, because they were... They shared an hour on Friday night together and Shirley Jones didn't want to do a variety series and David Cassidy who would

break out didn't want to do one and so Fred turned to the Brady Bunch because the Brady kids had an act which they took around to state fairs and things like that. Oh they did? They did well enough. What, singing act? Yeah, singing and, yeah. I mean, they weren't great, but... Yeah, they were the Brady Bunch. Yeah, but when he got Florence to say yes, Florence Henderson, the mother, wanted,

had, was raising four children, and she wanted to stay at home in LA. But she was also a known quantity. She was a real talent. A singing talent, a real talent. A singing talent, a Broadway talent, and a Vegas star, and she could really sing and dance and do sketches. Robert Reed, the dad, was a serious actor

who had taken, I think, the show because he was not getting the career he wanted. And this was going to be a nice payday. And I don't think any of them thought the show would last as long as it did initially or that it would go on into eternity. And I mean, it's had like six or seven different iterations already. It's crazy. And then the stage show that happened in Chicago. Oh, the parody of it. Yeah. And then the two movies. The parody was the straight scripts. I know. They just played them.

Yeah. Exactly. The movies were almost like that. They were parody movies, but they were kind of written straight, but with a wink. What was Alice's story? She was a pretty good joke teller.

And B. Davis was, she was a sidekick. She had been, had a show with Robert Cummings, who was a big movie star called Love That Bob. Yeah. And she played Schultz, his sidekick, who was man hungry and wacky. So she had a history. So she had that. And when Kara Burnett did Once Upon a Mattress on Broadway,

when she left, Anne Bee took over. Oh, okay. That makes sense. So she, I mean, she was, she could do it all. And, but then she became Alice the maid who didn't, it was kind of like she wasted her talents. She was in some kind of a harness. She could come in, she could do one line, pop her eyes and go out. But she was great fun. But what about Paul Lin?

Paul was... Albert Brooks told me a story about Paul Lin that was just too funny. It was like his first moment in show business and he was on the set at NBC or CBS probably and he ran into Paul Lin. He was a kid, Albert was, and Paul Lin is like, don't you just want to like lay in bed and eat yourself to death someday? Like, just sort of like this very dark. Oh, yeah, he was. He was extremely dark.

He was, I said, he was very charming on one drink. And then on two drinks, he was the Nazi high command. Oh yeah? You monkey low life, go back and come to. And of course I was gay, and so we bonded over that. I was the gay one he could come to with things.

Like when Kiss was on the Halloween special and he came to the rehearsal and Gene Simmons was in makeup and came over and went up to him and sucked his tongue out and Paul Trump said, I wanna meet him. So I said to Gene, Paul would like to meet you in his dressing room. Gene said, it was the tongue, wasn't it?

Yeah, he said, yeah, it gets him all the time. Yeah, well Gene's funny. Oh, he's great. Yeah, yeah. So wait, then you worked with who else? Lily Tomlin as well? I worked with Lily, I worked with Flip, George Carlin. When you say that, this is not for the Oscars.

These are for when they're putting shows together. They're TV shows and they're live acts. So you would get called and say, I need Punch-Up. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, Punch-Up. And some of them would like, Joan Rivers would say, I need 10 minutes on breast cancer or whatever. She didn't do that.

Yeah. I mean, I need 10 minutes on this. I'd pay seven bucks a joke. Yeah. She paid more than that, but I do have I need 10 minutes on this, and I'd pay seven bucks a joke. You know, it's like that. She paid more than that, but I do have a check from her for $7. Yes, I framed it. Of course, years ago.

So that was sort of a thing. So like, you know, just from the experience of putting together these shows with different talents and being a joke writer, you were sort of able to get the voice of people. Yes, well that's what you have to do, it's due diligence. I mean, you really have to, I admire people, screenwriters who come up with the characters

and write in those voices. Especially when they do, you know, when they actually find individual voices for characters, that's a great skill. I was handed these people and I always say that it's kind of like Bob Mackie, you know, would not put Cher in the same dress he would put Lizzo. I mean, these are two different body types. And although he has a certain style, he's obviously not going to give them the same kind of thing. So that was what it was with this.

I mean, you have to, I used to say, Shakespeare wrote the comedy of errors and Titus Andronicus. Sure. But he never, you know, they say, well, you're comparing yourself to Shakespeare. But like- And I would say he never had to do

a two spot for Donnie and Marie. As we don't, as far as we know. As far as we know. Yeah. But I mean, but like when you write for somebody that does long form stuff, like working with Lily Tomlin or something Well with Lily was all to character. Okay. There was a guy named Rod Warren who you who is no longer with us

Who used to write a lot of Lily's? Observational stuff, uh-huh, you know things like I went to the store and I bought a wastebasket and They put it in the paper bag and I took it home and took the paper bag out and put it in the wastebasket. That which is a classic. And especially the way Lily delivers it. You think it's going to go someplace else. So Lily as Lily at that time, even when she wasn't doing characters, was in herself a character.

That was her stage character and then she would branch off into the characters. After Rod died, Jane Wagner, her wife, took over that and also Jane wrote a bunch of the characters. I didn't create any characters, but I wrote for Ernestine and I wrote for Edith Ann. And you just get a call when they're doing a TV show? Yeah. Could you come in? Could you come in?

And we did a lot of benefits, I have to say. Ernestine was like the queen of benefits, especially like AIDS benefits, political fundraisers. Ernestine was the operator? The telephone operator, one ringy dingy. We laugh about, does that make any sense anymore? Because she used to dial the actual rotary dial with her finger. It was already a kind of nostalgia.

Exactly right. Yeah, there was something about that. That's interesting. Of course, the phone company at the time was omnipotent. Yeah. And now they broke them all up and who uses them? Now it's all- I don't even have a landline.

I remember it was a big deal not to have a landline. I just had a landline because it was old guy stuff. You're like, well you gotta have a landline. What if you need to call the police? I know, exactly. And now it's all- Well I kept the landline because in the earthquake, everything, the power went out, everything went,

but the landlines, the work- Somehow stayed. So I thought that was, and that was 1992, with the big one- The Northridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was in town then. I was at the Sunset Tower Hotel for some reason when that happened.

It's kind of crazy. It was a very funny moment though, because I was there for a junket for something, Comedy Central, something. So I'm in the hotel, the earthquake happens in the middle of the night. And I had met some guy, I met the guy earlier that night, a lot of show business was staying there.

I met the guy who was one of the co-creators of Beavis and Butthead. Oh wow. And we're all standing outside, you know, the earthquake happened, you're watching power stations blow up in the, and we're all standing around a car, a Lexus, because we could get the radio on it. It was the only way we could get news.

And I'm just standing there with this guy, John, and think his name was, who was the creator of Beavis and Butt-Head, he's looking out over the, you know, the earthquake damaged horizon, he goes, I can't help but think this is somehow my fault. For what? Unleashing Beavis and Butt-Head on the World. That's right.

Because that was my judge who wrote that, but he must have produced it. So when you write for, well, Billy's got to be easy, right? Oh, Billy was, we did all these Oscar shows. That's how you started the Oscar stuff? Yeah. No, the first Oscar show had no host. It was the notorious Snow White Rob Lowe show. And that was a guy named Alan Carr producing it. When was that? What year was that?

That was 89. That was my first one as an actual writer. And I was the writer. We brought in Hilde Parks, who wrote the Tony shows. But, and of course, it's a huge task for one person. But there was no host. So, because they had had, I don't even remember how that worked. And of course, it's a huge task for one person, but there was no host. So because they had had...

Not even remember how that worked. It was just a voice of God thing? It was. Or just stars walking out? Yeah, a bunch of... Well, there was an opening number and then Lilly came out and took it to commercial, I think, and then Tom Selleck came out and welcomed people and and Introduced the first category but before you do that like just tell me a little bit about when it says like so you were a joke Writer for hire. Yeah, basically

Why why yes and so when somebody like because it's some of your credits they say like Roseanne Yeah, so you would write for Roseanne when she was less crazy. Right, we did her stand-up act on a couple of specials. You were there with her from the beginning? No, close to. Her husband was writing for her a lot back then. The first husband who she came up with. And we met early on and I wrote some stuff then. Because you could understand the delivery system. Exactly right. And then of course she became a big star

off the TV series. And other people, there were a lot of people writing the show and they were involved with her. And then that marriage broke up and she married Tom Arnold and it went on, it got crazier and crazier. Right. I would still do, she would do lots, again, benefits, she loved to do benefits. So there was a list of people, I don't know who she would do lots, again, benefits.

She loved to do benefits. So there was a list of people, like I don't know who would be on it, where you might just get a call, like you got anything on this? Can you give me five minutes on this? And you were the guy. I was, I was not the only guy, but I was a guy, yeah.

And who were some of the people that leaned on you the most for jokes? Wow, what a good question. I'm trying to remember, because it hasn't happened in so long. Robin, Robin Williams, we used to sit down in a room and just come up with stuff. Just when he was doing comedy shows. He was doing comedy stuff, yeah.

And Whoopi. Yeah. And Billy and Bette. Yeah. And they were in the movie that was the... Harvey Weinstein made a movie about me 20 years ago. Never laid a hand on me. Oh, I'm sorry.

Hashtag why not me. But it's called Get Bruce. You can Netflix and chill. And they're the four principles. But Nathan Lane, later on Shirley MacLaine, Paul Reiser a few times. What was Reiser looking for? Because he's kind of long form.

Just joke, actually he hosted the Emmys one year and I came in and did that with him and I think he may have done the Golden Globes. I can't remember. What a treat, man. Because as a standup, I don't, occasionally people, friends will give me a tag. But the one time that I actually did a show

where I had joke writers to deliver jokes, it was kind of, it's kind of encouraging to know, well, I can, I know how to deliver a joke, and I didn't have to sweat over this one. You just do it. It must be nice. I think a lot of people have people helping them. What happens generally is they start out, nobody's interested in them, and they write all their own material. And then they happen. And once they happen, they get involved in what Joni Mitchell called the star-making machinery.

And also, it took them a decade to write that material. Yeah, right. And to generate new stuff, they don't have the time or the inclination really to try and do it. And that's when they bring in collaborators. And it becomes a thing. It goes on for... Even Rodney, I wrote for Rodney.

Everyone wrote for Rodney. Yeah, I know, exactly, that's the thing. That's one reason why he had a comedy club. Yeah, people, like, yeah, there were guys who, like, I remember when I was a doorman at the comedy store, Jimmy Walker had a thing on the bulletin board, I'll pay you $50. Wow. Right, like, just give them jokes.

Yep. I think, yeah, I mean, there used to be, they'd solicit for jokes for The Tonight Show. Like from, you could send in jokes. You could send in jokes, exactly right. And they'd just pay you. That's true, and he, Carson used to have 18 jokes he had to have for every monologue.

On his desk for the monologue, he didn't do 18, I didn't think the monologue was that long, but. It was longer than you remember. Yeah, exactly. They were all longer than you remember. Yeah, exactly. They were all longer than you remember. I watched the sort of DVDs of Dick Cavett shows. I'm like, wow, this is a slog. Yeah.

As brilliant as that guy was, you know, he wasn't playing to the audience. No, not at all. A lot of them weren't. They were playing to each other. It was kind of interesting. That was fun, yeah. The amount of dead air on shows that we've,

you know, kind of understand as mythic. Right, yeah. I mean, you watch some Carson's, you're like, oh my God, when's this going to pick up? I know, but he always, he had savers. He always had savers and he had Ed going, you are correct, sir. And when all else failed, he could do a gay joke about Doc, about whatever Doc was wearing. Sure. Doc was late tonight, he was in a rear-ender on Selma. Did you sit down with Rodney in right? Yeah.

What year? What year? Well, it was later, I mean, it was... Oh, what do you got for me? It was after he was a movie star. Yeah, yeah. I forget, you know, it was in the 80s. Before he was on medicine? I think he was always on medicine. Yeah, yeah. But toward the end, I mean, it was in the 80s. Before he was on medicine?

I think he was always on medicine. But toward the end, I think the last thing I did with him was one of the American Comedy Awards. I wrote all of those with George Slaughter and other guys. And he came in, because he was getting an award. He came in and George wanted to show him the clip he was gonna do and all of that. So George had an office on Beverly Boulevard and had a parking lot in the back with a gate.

And you had to ring the bell with the gate and rang the bell. And George's assistant called and said, I think this is Rodney because it's in like an old Cadillac. And so, and we watched on the... The video. The video. I mean, the ring phone, you know, the back door. And he pulled up and he parked and he got out of the car and he was wearing a Beverly Hilton hotel bathrobe.

Yeah, yeah. Probably carrying his own drink. Shower slippers and carrying a drink. And came in and sat with the bathrobe that would like fall open at the desk and right he goes, that's a killer, that's a beauty. Yeah, I tell you, I like that one. I like that. But the thing I loved about Rodney, my favorite thing about comedians is the biggest laughs for me were not the jokes, it was just the attitude. He would come on, he would say, I'm all right now, but yesterday

I was in bad shape. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right away. Right away. It was like, whatever else. Oh, I was in bad shape. My wife was fat. Oh, she's fat.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. What's coming next? He was like... I was already laughing. I just think, I mean, everyone knows Rodney, but as a comic, you know, he's just, I don't think he gets put up there as one of the best enough. Because I really think he was one of the best enough.

Because I really think he was one of the best. He was like the whole package. And there were moments, some of the greatest moments watching him on Carson is when he runs out of chokes and you realize he's incapable of talking. That's right, he's not Rickles. No. He's not gonna.

Once he's out, he's like, he can't talk because he's so fucking depressed. That's right. Exactly, you don't wanna know about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. he can't talk because he's so fucking depressed. That's right. Exactly, you don't wanna know about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was unbelievable. You do not want to know. And yeah, well, Rickles on the other side of that,

half the time Rickles wasn't funny. It was just the momentum. Yeah, right, exactly. You get caught up in it. Did you work with Carson at all? I gave him jokes. At the very beginning, I sold him a couple of jokes. And then- What, when he moved out here, you mean? Yeah. When he first moved out here. I gave him jokes at the very beginning. I sold him a couple of jokes and then.

What, when he moved out here, you mean? Yeah. Uh-huh. When he first moved out here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how does the relationship with the Oscars start? Alan Carr, I bet had been on as a presenter and some other people I worked with

and I'd written some stuff for them under the table. But then Alan asked me to write the show. So I came on in 89 and I wrote written some stuff for them under the table. But then Alan asked me to write the show, so I came on in 89 and I wrote that show, which became legendary because of the Rob Lowe, Snow White dance number at the time. I don't remember it, what happened? Well, he opened the show with a 20 minute number, set at the Coconut Grove with all old Hollywood stars

around and Snow White was visiting Hollywood. He imported a number from San Francisco from a show called Beach Blanket Babylon. Yeah, my, my, an ex of mine used to work at Beach Blanket, but with the hats. The hats. And so it was kind of a disastrous, it was a, seemed like a bad idea at the time, but that didn't stop Alan. And, and the rest of the show was kind of interesting, but that, it was in the great pantheon of bad Oscar numbers. It ranked high.

But I mean, there were other ridiculous, the year before Terry Gar was on an airplane wing flying down to Rio, it was really strange. But what cemented its relation, its notoriety, was two weeks after the show, oh, Disney sued for the use of Snow White, which was of course, they had no leg to stand up at the Academy, caved and said,

okay, we'll cut it out of the archive. So that was to make one guy at Disney happy. But two weeks after that, the Rob Lowe's sex tape surfaced. Oh, right. Where he and a friend were at a convention, the Dukakis convention. Yeah, right. The video. And the video. And of course, you have to remember that this was back in the day when

there were VHS and there was no internet and nobody was sharing anything. So it became a highly prized thing and people would have parties all over town looking at bootleg things. And he has completely owned it in the time since he was, he said I was the poster child for bad behavior. And he owns it to this day. But it cemented the show's reputation as being a classic disaster. That and the fact that a lot of the people that Alan couldn't put on the show

because the network didn't want them were big stars and they wrote a letter after Disney sued. They wrote a letter saying, well, we have to have a quality control meeting about this. This can't happen again. Really? Yeah, so they brought in Gil Cates to produce it and he wound up producing the next 17 shows, I think.

And you worked for him? Yes, and he brought in Billy to host it. Billy had hosted four Grammy shows. And you had worked with him before? Yeah. And so, in terms of writing it, do you put a staff together? Yeah, well, what happened,

the producer puts a staff together, but when there's a host, there are kind of two staffs. There is, the host generally has people who work with them if they are doing a daily talk show as many of them are They bring their entire talk show staff Yeah, and of course that puts a big dent in the budget Yeah They can't hire too many other people to write the rest of the show because I've known guys who you know my peers who like You know get pulled in to write for the week or two before.

That's because people get dissatisfied with what the writers for the host is, is written. So they bring in comics. And they bring in, yeah, they, so they're bringing in people. Yeah. Yes, I brought in, my last official Oscar show was 10 years ago, but I'm- Who was the host? Getting involved. Huge, of the legendary Anne Hathaway James Franco show.

That turned out to be a disaster, right? It was a bigger disaster, but I didn't write about it in this book because, maybe in the next book. Why? Because nobody asked me about it. It hasn't shown up on YouTube and had the kind of life. Well, I mean, it seemed like, you know, I felt bad for her because I love her. Yeah, she's wonderful.

And it just seemed like he wasn't willing, he wasn't game. She's a precision instrument and he wasn't playing along with her and he's apologized to me a million times since. He said he went, he was nominated that year for the movie where he noise his arm off. And he knew he was going to lose to Colin Firth for playing the Stuttering King of George. And he said, I decided, do I want to sit in the audience and wait to lose or do I want to do something else? And when they came and they said, you want to co-host it? I said, yes, I'll do it.

And he said, it was a mistake. And he didn't really know how to do that. He didn't. It was not in his comfort zone. And he brought in some writers who had no idea what to do with it, and they were young people who worked for Judd Apatow. I don't know, you know. It's just, yeah, but it was a bad idea from the beginning. I mean, there was no chemistry between those two.

I mean, it was a blatant attempt to youth the show up. Well, it's like, because she's so amazing, like it could've, you know, if you would've gotten somebody that had chops, it would have been great. Yeah, but it's, the number of people who are offered the show and turn it down is legion. If you're- To host it. Yeah, if you're famous enough and rich enough,

you don't need to host that show, you only can get in your own way. If you do well, they'll go, nice job. If you mess up, the stink will sit on you forever. That's interesting, isn't it? So you have to be built of really, like Letterman, built of really strong stuff. Yeah, I mean, I grew to appreciate the fact

that if we're gonna honor show business, then get the guys that love it. That's why Billy was good. Yeah, exactly. I think you're absolutely right. Even Steve Martin, who was an oddball, is a movie star, but he loves what he does. He loves the community, and he can comment on it.

He's not a mean-spirited comic coming on and making jokes. Yeah, and also, again, as time went on, and some of the older generation aged out, the sense of kind of community dissipated with the Oscars. You know, like there was a time where, you know, when you still had like, you know, Nicholson sitting there or even older guys, you know, with Jimmy Stewart or whoever were around,

you kind of felt there was a history to the thing and that there was a community to the thing and that there was a community to the thing. And now, like, I don't even know who the fuck's there, but I'm maybe just gonna come back. Well, you know, it started happening years ago when the independents began taking over and the movies that were nominated were not necessarily popular movies, but they were movies that people who make movies liked. And that still holds true, but now since the Academy has widened the voting pool and has included lots of diverse people

who were never involved before, and lots of not Hollywood-centric people. Yeah. I mean, you would never have gotten movies like Parasite and everything everywhere all over your face, and 12 Years a Slave and Moonlight. You would never have gotten those movies nominated, much less win, because the Academy voting body

was not interested in that kind of picture. Well, I guess that's a double-edged sword in that that kind of evolution is necessary. And inclusiveness is necessary, and those movies are great movies, but I guess it speaks more to the diminishing weight of the Hollywood community. Exactly.

And what are you gonna do? They don't all know each other. And sometimes, I mean, sometimes they vote. I don't know, the lady who won for playing the grandmother in Minari, I don't think, she's not seen around town with Joan Collins. She's not part of any old Hollywood set. Well, that's over.

I guess it's not bad that it's over, but I guess because I'm of an age where there's some part of me that misses that. But I'm also, I am impressed when they award off to the side movies that are truly amazing. And I think the death of the Hollywood picture is not horrible, necessarily, right? Well, but it's alive and well.

I mean, last year, Barbenheimer, you know, gigantic, and this year they're gonna have Wicked and Gladiator and I don't know what else. Sure, and then people will complain. Yeah, these popular movies that also, the movie makers are appreciating and want to make themselves, they do come along. But it also speaks to the community of voters. Thank God they expanded it because it was like a bunch of old Jews and a lot of out

of work people. Yes, that's true. And they would just vote on familiarity. They're like, oh, I know that person. Yeah. I didn't see the thing, but I like her. But I know that person. I like her.

Yeah, that's it. Right? So when did, like in looking back at the Oscars, who was your favorite host when you were working there? That's very impolitic to say. I mean, I got the biggest take out of Steve, because Steve Martin, because he's so strange. I mean, I did four shows with Whoopi, who's the greatest, and we had fun.

I did eight shows with Billy, who's phenomenal. I love them all, so it's hard to pick out a favorite. Sure, did you work on Comic Relief with them? Yes, I did. 15 of them. Yeah. And Robin was, he was something. Oh, Robin was spectacular.

You know, I, you know, oddly, I feel like Kimmel did an okay job. I thought he did great. I thought he grew into it. I thought, I mean, he was, he was at ease after the first one and, and he's not mean spirited. No, I mean, I just think he takes it to the edge, but he's not. He takes it to the edge, but that's his stick and they know it and no one feels attacked. Part of the reason is because they've all been on his show. Sure, that's great. Yeah, but also it's very funny that, you know,

you gotta know, it's good to know the people. Yeah, exactly. When did you become like active in terms of gay activism? Uh, when the... Because it seems like you were never knocked out. You know, I was not a professional homosexual. I was a homosexual professional. And, but as things, AIDS probably was what did it.

I mean, I was always interested. I was always kind of involved, but you know, it's a movement that used to eat its young. Yeah. You know, I mean, they would out anybody because they were, how dare you not be out? Yeah. And I always thought, who needs some miserable queen, who didn't want to come out?

Let them come out when they're ready to come out. Yeah. But what AIDS did was, it was a fight for survival. Yeah. And the government wasn't giving any money, and in show business you can raise money by doing a show, so we did shows. And as I say, it's how I became familiar

with all the major diseases, because if you do my benefit, I will do your benefit, so I knew all about them. But that was the beginning of that, and you know, when the community got galvanized to save its life, that brought a renewed interest in becoming first-class citizens because A's showed how much we weren't. And of course, that led to marriage equality because the only way we could really... That's something that,

I mean, is kind of basic. And once the Supreme Court said, yes, 10 years ago, we were in the mainstream fabric. And that happened, and I'm concerned that it doesn't get dismantled like Roe v. Wade. It's important that we are vigilant and stay on the case. Well, yeah. And well, it seems that at least culturally, there's a fight for life again. Yeah. As a community. As a community, yeah. But I'm being optimistic. I don't see somebody saying to Pete Buttigieg

that his marriage doesn't exist anymore. I mean, when you're in high levels of office already, I mean, even though he will not be in January, but it seems to me that more people know gay couples who are married than ever did before. And when you look at polls, they don't disapprove of it. So it is strictly a fundamentalist right wing dark side, quasi religious fanaticism that is fueling that. Yeah, and they have traction now.

They have traction. Yeah. So, you wrote the book, that's coming out, and then you're doing a podcast. You're gonna be among the yammerers. And if you are heard in the UK, I wrote a musical with Dolly Parton. Was that Platt? It's called Here You Come Again. No, it's now on, it's on in London right now with the Riverside Studios. It's about a, it happened during COVID. It's about a 40-year-old gay comic

who's never happened, working as a waiter at Carolines in New York. COVID happens, the club closes, and he has to quarantine in the attic of his parents' home in Longview, Texas, where he has an intimate relationship with his imaginary friend, Dolly Parton. Okay. She steps out of a poster, an actress named Tricia Pelluccio, who's brilliant, plays Dolly. And in the course of one night, she sets him straight.

So it's called, Here You Come Again, How Dolly Saved My Life and 12 Easy Songs. Oh. And we did five regional productions here and then we toured the UK for six months and now we're in London. It's a hit? It's a hit yeah we we paid off the UK actually recouped. Wow. Which is you know quite something. And you wrote all the songs? Dolly wrote all the songs. It's all her catalog. Yeah. And I co-wrote it with our director, Gabriel Barry, and our star, Trisha, because she's a... That seems to be a pretty good model if someone's got a big catalog and you can wrap a show

around it. It's great. I mean, she's actually has been inspired not by us, but by all the other musical star shows. She's working on her own catalog show, which is- Who, Dolly? Dolly is, which will be about a year from now. She can deliver a joke.

It was called Hello I'm Dolly, but now it's called Dolly, an original musical, but she's looking for a Dolly. I mean, I think she wants to like create a star. She's funny. Oh, Dolly is very funny. Yeah. Oh, she's a star.

She's not going to be in it. Right. Have you worked with her? Oh, yeah. I worked with her years ago, and then I worked on a legendary flop TV show called Dolly, a big ABC Sunday night variety show, which I did not include in the book for obvious reasons. It sounds like you got another book.

Could be. Let's see. What other musicals have you been involved with? You love it? I had a musical called Platinum, like you got another book. Could be, let's see. What other musicals you've been involved in? You love it? I had a musical called Platinum, which is in the book. Along with Ice Pirates, which I'm in, which is another thing that kids ask me about constantly. Can't stop the music, the Village People.

Why do they ask you about it? Because they think it's terrible? No, actually they love it. It's become a cult movie, but it's because it's kind of like, it was like before Spaceballs, but it was like a kind of action movie parody. It's an uncomfortable parody of things, but because it's also asking you to like it for real,

but the whole thing is very tongue in cheek. And it was one of the reasons that it gets seen a lot was it was Angelica Huston's second movie. And she won an Oscar for her third. And so they began showing all of her catalog, which amounted to three movies. And Ted Turner loved the Ice Pirates, so cable was beginning and he put it on

all of his cable stations constantly. And to this day, Angelica says, what do I do to get, I can't get rid of it. Somebody will come in there 20 years old, the first thing they'll say to me is, what was it like being an Amazon in the ice park? She said, I've had a career. What are they carrying on? That's what makes the impact. That's what makes the impression. And the podcast is called what?

The Oscars, What Were They Thinking? And I did it with an academician named Adam Davis, who's not academician makes him sound boring, he's very funny. And we go, we pick a year and we go through the year and explain why things won. His basic premise is nobody remembers how green was my valley, but it beat Citizen Kane. And that's what we talk about.

How did that kind of stuff happen? Movies that have no legs walked away with trophies, and movies that are iconic and will live through the centuries are overlooked. Well, what's the general, what's the consensus? How did that happen? Well, because of Hearst, because Hearst didn't allow Citizen Kane to get the press. Well, that was that one case,

but generally speaking, why do these- Well, there's a different situation. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, generally speaking doesn't really apply. That's, I guess, what the show is about, is that every case is kind of different. Well, that sounds interesting. So it's a series, it's not an ongoing thing? I think we recorded three of them and we're going to do a bunch more.

And we've chosen random years. Some years where not even I was alive. We go through. Well it was great talking to you Bruce. What a treat! Thank you. I am a fan. There you go. That was great. Bette Midler. Huh? How often do we get to talk about Bette Midler? So Bruce's new podcast is called Oscars. What were they thinking?

It's everywhere you can get podcasts. Hang out for a minute, folks. During the holiday season, as we head into a new year, it's time to think of others but also yourself. Maybe you or someone you know experience addiction or mental health issues. Solutions are available with CAMH and with your help. CAMH is the Center for Addiction and Mental Health.

I hope you'll take some time to visit camh.ca-wtf to see what they're doing to make better mental health care for all a reality. And if you donate to CAMH from December 23rd to the 31st, before the year ends, your gift will be tripled to make three times the impact in mental health care. Again, visit camh.ca slash wtf to hear stories of hope and recovery. I got a lot of travel coming up.

Going to New York, New Jersey, I got the tour dates next year. Once I'm on the plane or in the car, I'm good. Leading up to that moment, a little stressed out. And look, if you've got a lot of travel coming up or maybe one big trip that requires a lot of planning, it probably feels like you have a lot on your plate. You might think that hosting your place on Airbnb

while you're away is too much of a hassle. But what if someone else took care of everything for you? That's what can happen now with the Airbnb co-hosting network. You can get a co-host to handle all the hosting duties for you. These are high quality local co-hosts who take care of your home and your guests.

They'll create the listing for you, manage your reservations, and even send messages to your guests. Then the co-hosts who take care of your home and your guests. They'll create the listing for you, manage your reservations, and even send messages to your guests. Then the co-host will be on hand for any support your guests might need when they're at your place. So someone else takes care of everything and you still make some cash while you're away and your space is being unused. Now go make your travel plans and let a co-host handle everything else. Find a co-host at airbnb.ca slash host. Hey, if you want some holiday themed WTF material, you can listen to episode 875, The Shows of Christmas Past. That's a compilation episode of some holiday moments

from the early years of the show. Thanks for coming. This is going to be the Christmas show. So let's pretend like it's Christmas, shall we? Let's take a minute. Hmm. Let's talk to the people that are listening to this. This show is going to go up on the 24th, so it's the day before Christmas. So let's assume there are people maybe traveling home, all right, they're on the plane by themselves freaking out because they have fucking family to deal with.

They're going back to a home that's uncomfortable, filled with abuse and pain. So let's just talk to them. All right, keep it together. All right, don't let them in, keep them out. Remember, they're the ones that wired you, they can get into the box. Keep them out of the box. I don't usually tell people to lie,

but this is a good time to start lying. Pretend that everything is okay. Sure, your mom will see through it, but fuck her, just ride it out. All right, tell them you have things going on that you don't. Don't let them see the insecurity, and don't let your father hit you.

All right, just hold on. Keep hold of the ship, stay steady, and good luck, and Merry Christmas. Again, that's episode 875, The Shows of Christmas Past. To subscribe to WTF+, so you can get every episode of WTF ad free, go to the link in the episode description and go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go,

this podcast is hosted by a cast this guitar piece took me a long time oddly to put together and I don't love the sound I'm insisting on going straight in but it doesn't give me this the sustain I want I don't know why I don't just surrender to the pedals surrender the pedals But I do understand more more why Jimmy Page sounds like he sounds like if you go straight into a fender champ It's gonna be clunky. I didn't do that. It's not into a champ. This was into well This is into a deluxe doesn't matter look. I'm just talking the minor Guitar nerd shit that I know from my experience. Here, let me just play this. So So So So So So I'm gonna be a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

little bit of a little bit of a Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafond at Cat Angels everywhere.