WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1607 - Mike Leigh

Episode Date: January 9, 2025

Mike Leigh’s films are known for their observant depictions of the working class, their tragicomic tones, and their improvisational construction. But there are some misconceptions about his work that Mike would like to clear up. He does so while talking with Marc about his life-changing introduction to foreign films, his method of collaboration with his actors, the difference between realism and naturalism, and some details about the making of Secrets and Lies, Vera Drake, Topsy-Turvy, Naked and his new film Hard Truths. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I used to say I just feel stuck, but then I discovered lifelong learning. It gave me the skills to move up, gain an edge, and prepare for what's next. The University of Toronto School of Continuing Studies. Lifelong learning to stay forever unstuck. Wow, I've got a lot of traveling coming up. Let's see where I'm going. Sacramento, Napa, Colorado, Santa Barbara, and that's just this month. If you're going away, you can have an Airbnb co-host handle guests at

your house so you can make some extra money while you're away. You get a high quality local co-host who manages everything about your place and deals directly with guests while they stay at your home. Find a co-host at airbnb.ca slash host. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? What the fuck is happening? I'm Mark Mar. This is my podcast WTF welcome to it It was touch-and-go today I did not know if I would be able to do this because as many of you know the state of California or Southern California or

specifically the Los Angeles area is on fire and It's fucking terrifying. I mean, I've been through this stuff before and usually when you're out here, the fires are up in the mountains and there are places where, I'm sure obviously they affect people, but in terms of being who we are,

you think like, well, they're not near me. And now a lot of, I evacuated, you know, this morning was harrowing and my heart goes out to all the people in the palisades and all over California. It's just fucking crazy. These winds blew chairs off of my porch and I knew that there was the palisades fire

and I was trying to find out what was going on with that. If people I know were affected, obviously they were. I was just trying to monitor the situation because these winds have been out of control. Last night I'm going to bed and I heard there was a fire out in Altadena and I know people out there. I don't know how they're doing. I've texted some people, some people I know are okay,

but I haven't heard back from some people, and I don't know really how to reach out to other people, but that fire crept over, and it was really very close to where I live in Glendale, and they were starting to evacuate Glendale on the other side of the highway from me, and it was like, it just didn't look good this morning. starting to evacuate Glendale on the other side of the highway from me. And it was like, it just didn't look good this morning. You know,

I was up at six and I was going to, um, you know, I guess have a day, you know, I was having some painting done at the house. I just had it rodent treated. So it's all sealed up. But now I don't know what's going to happen to my house. I don't know if the fire is going to jump over there and burn down my neighborhood. I don't know. I wasn't under a mandatory evacuation this morning, which is yesterday if you're listening to this Thursday, and I didn't and the zone next to me was on alert but hadn't been evacuated. But I got up last night. I went out and did comedy and we knew that you know the fires were going in the palisades and I

don't know you just some part of you thinks like well I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do what I do you know and I'll be okay there's this denial part of your brain which I imagine is survival driven that you've got to push back on constantly because you know I woke up this morning, I looked at the fire app and it was, it was too close for me to be comfortable. And last night a tree had fallen down across the street and my entire street is blocked off one way

because there's a tree across it, a large tree. And that's what's happening here. So this morning I'm like, well, I don't know if I can wait to be evacuated because I've got to deal with these fucking cats. Oh my God, dude, dudes, ladies, gentlemen, he, they, she, whatever, man.

It's just been a morning, I'll tell you that. And so I only have one crate. If there is a transgression I have made in this situation is not having more than one crate. And then it's sort of like, what do I bring? How long am I gonna be gone? Am I seeing my house for the last time? But all I can think about at that moment

was these fucking cats and how do I get them into my car with one crate? And that was the sort of, because you have to sit there and think about that. It's like, okay, maybe I can just go split and it'll be okay and they'll be okay and I'll just check in with them later. But then I'm like, dude, they're your fucking cats

and are you gonna be able to just leave them here and hope for the best? And no. So I put Charlie in a crate, not easy, and then I had to grab Sammy and I had an old hamper, like a wicker hamper with a cover on it that I was going to throw away. It was on my porch and it didn't blow away. So I threw him in there and wired it shut and then I had Buster and I had to go find a box. So I just had a regular box and I taped him into it, punched holes in it, wired Sammy into the hamper

and put Charlie into the one crate I had and then got them all in the car. And immediately they all started shitting and pissing. So my car was a can, and obviously there's part of me that's sort of like, well, I guess I'm gonna have to throw this car in the garbage. Just gonna have to drive this car into the, you know, whatever junk pile.

It's gonna smell like fucking cat piss for the rest of time. And certainly that's a concern, but obviously I was doing it to not think about what was at hand, which is where the fuck am I gonna go with my hampered cat and my boxed cat and my other idiot in a crate, we're all in a car and it's like just,

it smells like piss, smells like shit. They're all howling and I'm just driving my car and I don't know where to go. I don't have a plan in place. I thought, well, maybe away from the fire would be good. So that was the beginning of my day today. Yeah, this is happening. So I've got a lot on my plate right now

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free at simply safe.com slash WTF that's simply safe.com slash WTF for 50% off. Look, a lot of people have it worse than me. There's a lot of situations in the world, earthquakes, famine, war, that are much worse than this. But in terms of these things, in terms of trying to find safety or try to do the right thing in the midst of all this, you know, it's definitely something you should think about.

And obviously I've always thought about fires and I'm always concerned about it, but you know, in the moment, man, in the moment, wow. But I do have Mike Lee on the show today. And Mike Lee is one of the greatest filmmakers alive. You know, I watched a lot of his movies. I knew a few of them. Criterion had a lot of the old ones,

and there is such a humanistic realism, heavy-heartedness balanced with a bit of comedy and with a bit of sort of pathos that is really the pace of real life and the heaviness of just day-to-day people's lives. of sort of pathos that is really the pace of real life and the heaviness of just day-to-day people's lives. And they are totally special movies. And I can't really tell you how they make me feel,

but it's been a heavy journey with me and Mike Lee in that I find them the most poetically satisfying sort of windows into humanity that I've ever seen in my life. And watching so many of them together, watching people's struggles and what they deal with, some of them mundane, but none of them different than any of our lives. It usually focuses on working class people in Britain

and I don't know, man. It's just, it's some of the greatest filmmaking ever. And it was a real honor to talk to Mike. And he came over and we talked a bit about his new movie, Hard Trues, which I went to see at a premiere with Kit the night before. And it was really a tremendously rewarding experience for me.

And now that I'm in the middle of what is my own kind of human crisis along with thousands of other people out here in Los Angeles, there's a resonance to it. I'm taking, I'm trying to stay in my body and keep it together and understand that human tragedy and human crisis is more so than not, if not always, part of the human experience.

The new film, Hard Truths, is his 16th film, and I hope you can see it, or go to Criterion and watch some of the earlier stuff. So back to the ordeal, some driving in my I'm driving in my car that's, you know, just filled with piss and screaming cats. And I'm just, I don't know really what to do. And I realized, all right, it's just weird what my brain does. Like I packed a bag, you know, for some reason, I packed a bunch of money. Like I don't even know what that was about.

I mean, it's not the rest of the town is functioning relatively well. Bank machines are functioning well. But all I thought was underwear, socks that was about. I mean, it's not, the rest of the town is functioning relatively well. Bank machines are functioning well. But all I thought was underwear, socks, cat food, a wad of money and a water bowl for the cat. I don't know what that was about. I got the computer and my other stuff, my passport, I got my passport.

It was, I guess some part of me thought I was leaving the country or perhaps had to head to Mexico. I don't know what I was thinking, but it was not enough. I did not bring my recording equipment. Yeah, I'm recording, what's the name of the studio? Bad Ladder. Bad Ladder Studios, thanks to some friends. Morgan McDonald at Bad Ladder Studios,

who's Ali Makovsky's boyfriend. I just got a hotel 10 minutes from here. I got to record, man. We got to do it. So here I am doing it. But I went to Petco, I got two crates, I got disposable litter boxes, I got some more food, and I got a hotel room in Hollywood.

And I put together the crates, I put a towel in all of them, and now all the cats are comfortably sitting in their own crates in a hotel room in Hollywood and I guess I just waited out. And again, I hope yours, you and yours are well and if not, I hope you're in a safe place. But hell of a morning, I don't know, I don't know really what to tell you other than,

you know, I don't know. I don't know really what to tell you other than you know, I don't know. Did you get started on your health goals for the new year? Do you need a little motivation? Especially when it comes to weight loss. How about this? The folks at Noom can get you started on a weight loss plan that's tailored to your individual needs. No two people are the same and Noom understands that. They build plans that take into account your unique psychology and biology to meet you where you are. Maybe you have some dietary restrictions or medical issues that make some weight loss plans impractical for you, but Noom's personalized program will be more sustainable and less restrictive than other weight loss plans because Because it's your plan, and they have a great app that makes setting your goals and following your routines

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the wind is just menacing. I just really, I have no idea what's gonna happen. And I got to sit with that. And we had to cancel some interviews. Some people couldn't fly in. And another guy I was going to interview today, I just obviously, I left my house. I can't expect someone to come over to the house.

But again, I hope everyone is safe out here. And my heart goes out to you. If you lost people or homes, it's just fucking awful. And I know I sound, I don't think I sound chill, you know, if you lost people or homes, it's just fucking awful. And you know, I know I sound, I know I don't think I sound chipper, but I do think that, you know, I'm locked into a zone here

and it's amazing how much your brain, he has to constantly push back on denial because the part of your brain that's sort of like, well, it'll be okay, you'll be okay, it'll be okay. And you're like, I don't know. I don't know. I do know that I'm safe, but I don't know that I'll be okay. I hope so.

I do hope so. My tour dates are what they are. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour. The Sacramento and Napa dates this weekend. You know, I hope I can feel comfortable leaving my home to go do those dates. I guess everything's up in the air, everything's fluid right now in terms of the fires. And yeah, so that's what's happening.

Even by the time you hear this, I really don't know where I'm gonna be at. But I do thank you for listening and I hope everything works out for me and I do hope works out for me. And I do hope you enjoy this interview I did with Mike, because he's great. The new film, Heart Truths, opens January 10th.

And this is me talking to Mike Lee, before the fires. I used to say,, before the fires. unstuck. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. It's funny when I have British people over I get into a panic about the tea. What sort of tea is it? I remember I had Roger Daltrey come over once and they requested a certain type of tea. And so I go out and get it and I'm ready and he doesn't want it

Well, there's a word for that My only thing is this yeah when I ask for tea in especially in the States I have to say Tea not Earl Grey, right? Okay fucking disgusting. Yeah, if you don't like that bergamot business. Absolutely. I was at the Toronto Film Festival one time. You have a film crew in a room all day. Yeah.

And people come and go. And so I went into this room, to the film crew, and I was asked, do you want a cup of tea? And I said, yeah, not Earl Grey. And the entire crew erupted because they'd been to England and they'd made a documentary about the way they make Earl Grey tea with rooms full of Bergham, you know, and stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. And they were all, they had such a disgusting experience. They were so pleased for someone came in and said, not Earl Grey. Years of work dismissed rightfully. Yeah. I don't drink a lot of tea but I have some nice teas you know.

I'm more of a coffee guy. Yeah. Tea plays a big part in all of your movies. I wonder why that is. It must be a cultural fact of some kind. So in coming over here what have you been thinking about? What's occupying your mind right now? Because I'm consumed with the threat of fascism myself. Yes, well, you know, this is the second time I've been over to the third time. Yeah, I've been to the States in the last few weeks. Yeah. And of course, you can't help thinking, Jesus fuck, I'm going to America, I'm going to the States. Yeah.

I'm going to Trump land. Yeah. I mean, it's hard even to begin to articulate the worry. Yeah. And I don't know how many people here, I get the sense that it's different in the European sense of what it really means. But here, I don't know that people, most people are, have the depth to wrap their brain around it. Well, there's that and presumably there's also an inevitable need to blanket and, you

know. Yeah. To distract. Close your eyes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's terrifying. It really is. It really is.

And when you, like, in terms of, like, your, like, life, I mean, you grew up in fairly recent, it was post-war Britain. Yeah. So it was rubble. Yeah. I remember rubble. Yeah. I mean, I remember the war just.

Yeah. I was born in 1943. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. But I mean, what you're talking about now is the massive leap we've made from a positive, optimistic post-war world to something that would have been unthinkable.

Yes. You know what? Yeah. I mean, and it's happening happening ever is happening in the UK. I mean you have this fascist Outfit reform, you know, yeah, I mean it's You know, it's terrifying it really is because like when I think about Because I've watched

You know, I've seen your movies throughout my life But when I knew I was gonna tell you while the criterion had just put a bunch on there Which was great because I hadn't seen those earlier ones and then when I knew I was gonna talk to you I've watched, you know a lot of Mike Lee in a very short time and there's a weight to it, you know, and it is it's the weight of of human emotion and tension and and trying trying to just sort of make the best of what is on some level, if possible. Now, as an artist, which you are and you have a specific way of approaching it and you

have a sensibility that has purpose, I get concerned because there, and I don't know if this is the same with you, that you put this stuff into the world that in its way celebrates humanity. So is there a power to art now that can stand up to, or is it necessary to think that way to the politics that we're dealing with? Well, it has to be.

Yeah. I mean, you can't for a moment consider that there isn't. Yes. I mean, it's a non-negotiable thing. Right. I mean, that's one thing. Yeah. That's the easy answer.

Yeah. And it's truthful, but it's it's truthful, but you know the question then is It is it is what one does making any difference. Well, that's yeah, that's it getting through. I mean as I Without being presumptuous as I perceive it. Yeah what I do Which is never in any real sense polemical. Right. I mean, I don't make movies that say, think this on the whole. Right.

Which other very perfectly legitimate political filmmakers do. I don't. But I like to think, and I think as far as I can understand, as far as I can read it, it seems to be right that it gets, whatever I do, gets to people on some kind of level. Yeah.

Be it emotionally or subconsciously or in terms of how they, I mean, like this current film. Yes. You know, what's fascinating apart from anything else is the vast number of people that say, I know a pansy. I am pansy. That's my sister, my dad, my uncle, my auntie, and all the rest of it. You know? And all that goes, the rest of the iceberg,

of which that is a tip. Yeah. So you like to think that what you do is making, having some kind of effect. Yeah. that what you do is making, having some kind of effect. But when you're then confronted, sticking to what I think you're talking about, when you're confronted by the relentless, crass, unsophisticated nature of fascism, which is generally sums up what I think

you're talking about. Then you say, well, you worry, I worry, that yeah, okay, so I'm making films, movies that permeate in one way or the other and affect people in different kinds of ways, but does it actually confront the threat? Yeah. But that's the conundrum. But there's nothing you can do about it other than keep on fighting the fight you fight. I mean, you can't degenerate into... Despair.

Well, no, that's true as well. What I was gonna say, you can't degenerate into making a different kind of crass, black and white... Right. despair. Well no that's true as well. You can't degenerate into making a different kind of crass black-and-white, unsubtle, ham-fisted movie really. Well I think that what we did here, you know, in these conversations and also in my comedy, you know, but they're two different things, but in the face of the first Trump administration that we leaned into what we did to explore and embrace the vulnerability of people, you know, and express

the uniqueness of that humanity in the face of what becomes a monoculture of ignorance. Absolutely, yes. Yes. And I don't know that there's much else you can do. Well there isn't. Yeah. There isn't. You have's much else you can do. Well, there isn't. Yeah. There isn't. You have to do what you do.

Yeah. With integrity. I mean, I don't want it to generate it to be in pompous. Yeah. And pious about it, but that's the bottom line here. Well, when you started, in terms of, you know, how much do you think post-war England and what that must have felt like

influenced your young brain towards the arts? Uh Interesting question. I I grew up in a in manchester. Yeah I suppose really in a kind of how can I put it philistine? bourgeois Yeah, you know worldgeois world. Yeah. Jewish? Yeah.

And because my dad was a doctor, a general practitioner. Mine too, yeah. Oh, really? Orthopedic. Oh, really? Well, my mom and sister were. But we lived in a working class area. Yeah.

Of course, we were by definition middle class. The paradox is that we, you know, I was taken to shows. I went to the movies a lot. I, you know, we saw the vaudeville pantomime. I saw Laurel and Arty live on stage. Oh, in that tour? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you see that movie about that tour?

Of course. Oh my God. But I was nine. My mother took me to see them live on stage. And they were a disaster. They couldn't get it together, you know. And you had seen the movies? So you were expecting something? Well, actually, I know the director and she said she wanted to put a scene in, because I told her about my experience, and Oliver Hardy lay horizontally on a park bench in a train station, and Stan Laurel sat at one end, but they couldn't get, Hardy couldn't get it together. He was giggling and corpacing, and it didn't happen,

and they brought the tab of the curtain down, which I found fascinating at one point. And she wanted to put that scene in the film, and they didn't in the end, but she was amused by the idea that, they just couldn't get it together. Well, you know, but, But that's the humanness of the whole thing. Absolutely. But yeah, so I saw, you know, music and stuff,

but always on the basis of the idea that I would be an artist of any kind, was anathema to my dad, absolute anathema. Not least because my grandfather, who of course was an immigrant from Russia, he- Did you know him? Yeah, I knew all my grandparents. They were all immigrants, yeah. Yiddish speakers, yeah.

But grandpa had been a commercial artist, coloring in photographs, you know, that old convention. Sure, sure. And he, of course, during the depression, the slump, he couldn't feed the family. Yeah. So to my dad, being an artist of any kind meant penury. Yeah, yeah. And it was nonsense.

Right. But I had, from an early age, could draw and was fascinated by movies and theater and all the rest of it. So it was an, the journey was inevitable really. Right. But to some degree, and I think this is key to what we may be talking about, to some degree it was motivated and inspired by things that I saw.

But as much as anything, it was a reaction to my environment, you know? And of course, those tensions, those class tensions and all the things that are implicit in what I've just identified are there in my films. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And the Jewish experience of that time, was there a community? Did you feel, was there an isolation?

Manchester has the second biggest Jewish community in the UK and it's a very old Jewish community. Yeah. Oh no, that was the world, you know. And I was also in a socialist Zionist youth movement. Yes. You know, the assumption was we would all go and be kibbutzniks.

Right. And those comrades of mine who survived, we are appalled and disgusted and traumatized by what's going on. It's horrendous. Terrible. And do you still know those people? Yeah.

Oh, you do. And you're in touch with them. And they're- We're all horrified. Of course, I also know people that went and are Israelis and I have Israeli relations in fact. Yeah. But that's another story. Sure, sure. So you started out with drawing mostly?

Yeah, drawing and putting on plays, being in plays and... And this is before you were in your 20s? Oh yeah, you know, I left, I went to drama school in London at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art on a scholarship when I was 17, in fact. How'd you get the scholarship? You auditioned. Oh, so you wanted to be an actor.

Well, I wanted to find out, look, you know, you're 17, right? Yeah, sure. You wanna get out of Manchester, you wanna get down to the big city, and you know. But I knew I wanted to direct and make things up, which I'd already been doing. But I trained as an actor to see, you know, because it was there and it was, I mean, the world is a better place for my not having gone on to be. I can act and I'm quite good in a way, but you know, I knew I wanted to direct, but I

trained as an actor and it was important that I did and I think that was the basis of Obviously what I do is very much actor orientated as you know But we over that's for sure because you create a space with you know, all of your films You know, and I was noticing it more, you know, that there is a weight to the silence and for letting a scene unfold in a natural way that is, you know, counterintuitive to, you know, certainly mainstream movies are entertainment product.

Was it theater or were there movies that encouraged you to pursue that space? Yeah. Well, first, the first thing to say is this. From the youngest possible age, up till 1960, when I went to London, I saw movies all the time, as much as I could. But I never saw a film that wasn't in English. I only saw Hollywood and British movies.

So when I went to London in 1960, suddenly, wham, world cinema. Hollywood and British movies. Yeah. So when I went to London in 1960, suddenly, wham, world cinema. Yeah. In the first week I was in London, somebody said, oh, there's a festival, arts festival, and they're showing a movie, do you wanna come?

Yeah. And there was this film where a knight is playing chess with the devil. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Oh, man, I mean. The Bergman movie I mean, yeah, I mean, it's a blow away. And then, you know, Abu D'Souff was playing, Shadows started that set, some thoughts going, you know, and all of that. There was a lot, this is the early 60s. There was a lot going on in the opening years of that, there was a lot, this is the early 60s, there was a lot going on in the opening years of the 60s, while I was at this very old fashioned English drama school, purportedly

the best drama school in the world, it was very, very staid and it wasn't creative in any real sense. But out there, stuff was going on, I mean, we started to know what was happening in New York, you know. Experimental things were happening. Yes. There was the work of, also in England, in London, the work of Peter Brook and the Royal Shakespeare Company. This is to answer your question. The first thing I directed at the Academy was Harold Pinter's Caretaker. Yes.

Because it was taken with Beckett and Pinter and these things were a revelation to me Yeah, well I was wondering about Pinter because I've talked about him a bit before and I recently watched the the film version I think of the birthday party. Yeah, and There there is a sort of a disturbing tension, but it all seemed really rooted in human relationship totally And and I and I guess the plays speak to that as well Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So there was a lot of stuff going on. And did you see Beckett's stuff too? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

I mean I went to see Endgame, I think 12 times or something. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. No, no, it was, you know, all that was going on. Yeah. And then also, you know, being in London, I mean the productions of Shakespeare and things were massive. And I did later in the 60s to jump forward. I worked as assistant director, the assistant director at the Royal Shakespeare Theatre at Stratford-on-Avon, working on the big Shakespeare productions. And that fed into my, you know, the writer side of my, you know, I

mean, working on Shakespeare properly in a sophisticated way, was a very good thing for a writer, really. And also, I guess, you know, given what was going on in the time, to see it made fresh by productions that, you know, were active. Oh, absolutely. That was the whole point, Is it they were not stayed old-fashioned, received notion productions of Shakespeare. So you could understand the depth through action. Absolutely. And also about working with actors and all the rest of it.

But I, in that early period in the 60s, I started to, I am one of two other comrades at the Academy, wanted to, knew we wanted to write, and I knew I wanted to direct. And I started to involve, just to get the idea that somehow you could write, you could make theatre, make films. The writing and the rehearsal and the process could be combined. And that the actor could make more of a contribution than just being an interpreter. And by a fluke, in the mid-1965, I got a job at a new arts center in Birmingham where they had a brand new, state-of-the-art flexible studio theater.

And I was supposed to be the assistant director with the company of actors. And when I arrived, there were no actors. There'd been some kind of a bureaucratic thing. And there weren't gonna be actors for a while. But I was paid and I was there. And they said, okay, well, this is what you have to do. We've got to have an arts club

for local 16 to 25 year olds who want to do some acting. You can do whatever you like. And so I started to make plays, improvised so-called misnamed improvised plays, because that makes everyone think that they're improvised on the spot in front of the audience. But building plays using improvization. And that really was the beginning of the journey

that I'm still on. And these actors, at that point, so you're dealing with a lot of people who are amateurs. Yeah, totally. And so completely willing to take the risks, I imagine, that you wanted them to. Absolutely. Well, they didn't, they'd go along with whatever, you know. Because like, it seems that over time, I mean, you've got to find the actors that can do

what you do. Yes. Well, that's always the quest. Yeah. I mean, my auditions go on for ages. Because all I'm really doing with the auditions is sorting out the sheep from the goats, really. I mean, you get very good actors, and you say to them, okay, tell me about somebody you know,

and I'm gonna leave you alone in the room for a bit. Just be that person. Don't try and make anything interesting happen. Don't try and create a scene. Just be in character. And it's quite straightforward. Some people really get it, anything interesting happen. Don't try and create a scene, just be in character. Yeah. And it's quite straightforward. Some people really get it and you come back into the room and that's all good. And some people simply, good as they might be at conventional acting,

they don't get it at all basically. They need to script. They need to know what the objective is. They need to be performing and thinking about what the audience is experiencing and what. So that's what I do. But you know what? I've been blessed, obviously, to see it over the years by amazingly talented character actors, people that don't just play themselves, but people who don't play themselves, who are versatile and can play real people out there in the street. And that's what I need. Yeah. Over the course of watching your movies, real people out there in the street and that's what that's what I need.

Yeah over the course of watching your movies I've become really quite obsessed with Leslie Manville. She's the record holder. She's done more work more with me than anybody else and you never see her doing the same thing twice. It's astounding. I mean I just saw her in Queer. Yeah. Well that's something else again she does. Once she gets in that movie which is the- Well, that's something else again she does, you know, yeah. Once she gets in that movie, which is the third act, it's a different movie. I know.

That character was astounding. She's great. Yeah. But then she is one of a whole bunch of people. Of course, yeah. Yeah, and indeed, you know, Marianne Jean-Baptiste- Yes. Who does Pansy and Hard Truths.

I mean, she's a consummate character actor, you know. I mean, like, you saw her last night. She's a very open, funny, intelligent, perceptive woman. It must have been an exhausting project to hold that character. Sure, but we're very, as I think she will have said, we're very disciplined about, you know, going to character character being character staying

But then come out of character It's not method acting where you kind of become the character and live it 24-7 and you give them the time to make these decisions to define that character on their own terms So they can get in and out absolutely, but I work with them always yeah on How the process by which you can get into character and, yeah, absolutely. And now have you dealt with method actors? A bit, but I mean, not to a degree where I can report anything interesting about it really.

Well, that's the interesting thing about watching some of the movies going all the way back, is that there's a naturalism to it, that you would assume that these people, in their embodiment of the character, having been sort of learned about the method process, are so good that they are doing that, but there is a different quality of actor. It's a different thing entirely.

Yeah. I mean, first of all, talking in very basic terms, the main principle about method and all that that entails is that you find the character within yourself. Right. Now we're not, I'm not interested in that. I mean, actors are artists,

and it's about doing people out there and depicting them. So the actor is the actor and the character is the character. And in fact, if you don't do that, this is sort of a process we're talking about. You know, if that discipline isn't in place and in place very seriously and thoroughly and doesn't draw a line between himself or herself and the character, then you know, you have an improvisation of an emotional and traumatic kind.

You can't then negotiate with the actor and construct a scene. Because notwithstanding what you said a few moments ago, my films are not naturalistic. They're realist realism, not naturalism. It's not surface naturalism. It gets to the essence of what's real. And it's heightened and dramatic and constructed and distilled and not just ad hoc improvisational stuff.

And, you know, to construct a scene, the actor needs to be able to be objective, out of character, and then go into character and come out of character, and that's a discipline. Whereas if the actor is, you know, I am the character and I've just been through this emotional, traumatic experience, and don't talk to me, you know,

there's no way in a million years that you can construct... To do what you do. Absolutely, yeah. And what you do is very specific Absolutely and when you because like you oddly you know in watching the films you know I watched bleak moments after I'd seen it, you know ten other ones and The the interesting thing about watching that movie is that it stands up as one of your best movies extraordinary really you consider that it was made 100 years ago. But like that was like a template.

I know. And I don't know, and even in that movie, you know, and talking about the climate you were growing up in, that you had these, I assume left-wing propagandists were taking up the garage to make their ideological pamphlets. But you don't go into that. It's just it is of the time.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And when you went into that movie, you'd already done some theater. Oh, loads. Yeah. I mean, that was based on my 10th play. We did it in the theater and then decided to expand it into a movie. With the same actors? Yeah.

The same core five actors. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also, like, you seem very aware from the beginning of the use of music as, you know, creating a whole other layer of the poetry of the thing. And it seems that the music has a tone and theme throughout of most of your movies. Yes. Now are these composers you use? I know there's some pieces that you've taken but do you do you have people who score the film or do

you do? Totally. Yeah. In a conventional way and I mean I mean the one thing about the composers I work with is that because of the way we make the film we obviously build the film and discover what the film is during the process of making it, right down to the last thing we shoot. So the composer cannot do what composers often, if not normally do, which is to read the script and have ideas before anybody's shot anything. I mean, as soon as we've got to the roughest of rough cuts of the film, then the composer can start looking at it

and having ideas and sharing with me and so on. From there on, and it's in technical terms, it's quite conventional really. But yeah, I mean, it's interesting that you start talking about the music in terms of the music in bleak moments. There isn't a score in bleak moments. There isn't a movie score. The music is all made within the action.

Right, with the guitar player. Yeah, yeah. A dreadful guitar player. One of the ironies, a minor but amusing fact about is he sings When I die, please bury me deep down at the end of he says Beaker Street because he doesn't know it's actually bleaker Street, right? And the I mean the joke being of course, it was called bleak moments. Yeah, but the irony is that this current film is Backed by and more importantly distributed by bleaker Street. Yeah

full circle either Well, it was like it was interesting watching that movie because I the one thing I sense and I don't know if if you sense it personally or When you're in this is that? Do you get to a point with these characters? when you're in this is that do you get to a point with these characters where, I mean, there is a balance to the thing in terms of, you do as heavy as they can get in terms of the pain

of a character that, you know, even in this movie, through some editing, but also through the character arc itself, there are moments of release of tension. Maybe not happiness per se, but there seems to be a balance between like, if there was no moment in which pansy in this new film has some sort of breakdown or moment of self-awareness that, you know, what you have as an audience experience is something that it would be hard to walk away with. Absolutely. I mean, but you're absolutely right.

Far as I'm concerned, the moments that you're talking about, the moments, in a way, you could regard them as moments of complexity and contradiction as much as anything else, but they are that release as well for the audience. Yeah. But they're not, but they're organic. Yeah. It's not, I don't think, now I've got to find a moment that... No, no, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it comes out of, it comes organically and naturally out of, as a function of what's going on basically. Thankfully. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the same, what we're talking about now can also be applied to the fact that the films are, I think, both tragic and comic. Yeah.

You know, but you know, people say to me, well, how do you decide when to do, when to be funny, and I don't. Yeah. Life is tragic and comic. Yes. It comes out of the soil like that, you know. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you decide when to do when to be funny? I don't yeah life is Tragic and comic yeah, it comes out of the soil right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but but it does seem that there there I don't know ever What human moment we're going to go to black on?

You know and when you know, so this unconventional ending that doesn't imply anything's over Whatever is yeah and indeed No, I mean Apart from anything else. Yeah my job Whichever way you look at it. Yeah is to hand it over to you the audience Okay No, you this is it for you to go away and ponder argue about care about forget about, forget about, whatever you wanna do with it really. Yeah.

Well, it's interesting, because my girlfriend is a huge fan, and she feels as a person who grew up in the American working class, she feels represented by your films. Oh, good, good, good. In a very personal way. She's a filmmaker, isn't she isn't she no no she's just

She's she she loves your movies, but she loves horror movies Well, but but somehow it speaks to her because you know she never feels like she sees herself in Movies like she like high hopes is her favorite film. Oh, there you go movies. Like High Hopes is her favorite film. Oh, there you go. Yeah, I mean, I think that's important. A, what I do first and foremost is I do not make films about films. Yeah. You know, plenty of movies are about movies. Even in terms of reference or literally?

No, no, no, no. In terms of, yeah, I mean, they're not. I mean, obviously, I'm a film watcher and a film and a movie buff. Yeah. But that's just, but the actual substance of what is, I mean, I don't think about this out of the other movie when I'm making a movie. Yeah. The other thing is, you know, that again, with reference to your girlfriend's feelings about representation, you know, it's important to me to, you know, to point the camera out there, at them. Which is to say us, real people.

I'm not in the business of heroes or idealized, you know, I mean, of course, you could argue the exceptions are that Topsy Turvey is about theatrical folk in the 1880s. And Mr. Turner is about an artist. Well, an artist is an exotic thing to be a painter. But the point about those films, if you look at them in the context of all my other stuff, is that they're saying, okay, yeah, this may be in the 19th century, and yeah, these may be about artists, but actually, they're vulnerable.

These are vulnerable people. You know? What problems? Like you, me, and him. Yeah. Well, there is sort of an oddly heroic nature to Vera Drake. Yes, that's true. That's very true. but that's not,

that's with respect confusing two different things. Yes. I mean, yes, she's a heroic, you could argue perhaps that there are a number of heroic people in my films. Yes. But that's not the same as- As a heroic journey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, or indeed about, you know,

making your characters, by definition, heroic, received tropes. Right, tropes, right. Well, it was interesting last night, we had, it wasn't an argument, but the moment in this new film, in Hard Truths, where the husband throws the flowers out, that we had a discussion about that action,

and her sense of it was totally different than mine. There you go. And- Good. And we had to pull it back from an argument, because there is no arguing. It's a sensibility. And my sensibility in that action, given that his son had given his mother the flowers,

perhaps for the first time since he was a child, that what I read was that that character, the husband may have had regrets about his life and that his relationship with his son was distant because of possible resentment because of the life that he had found himself in over time and she read it she and then when I Said that she goes you need I think you might need therapy and And then I said well, what did you think it was and she said it was just a reaction to the action of The action to the action of pansies, you know, this human moment that was such a chore for her was not enough.

And he was angry about that. And I have nothing to say. I know. I didn't think you would. Because it's so, it's for you and her to have that argument, really. But then she also saw the son, Moses, as being some sort of on the spectrum. And I thought that, well, I don't know that I agree with that. I think he was denied love his entire life by a troubled mother and that he was in a suspended sense of childhood. So, again, you're not going

to speak to that but does it but these are the conversations of course and that's great as far as I'm concerned that's what it's all about really yeah and when you go like let's talk about the process a little bit because in order for you to do what you do you know you make a lot of films but but you have a very specific way of working to get the collaboration and the sort of piece of work that you do. In general, when you start a story, what is the idea? It varies, but to a considerable extent, I would be unable to articulate what the idea

was. Right. I mean, I have, first of all, see, people say to me, where'd you get your ideas from? Well, you know, I've only got to walk down the street and walk past 10 people and there are 10 possible films there, you know, that's to start with. So, you know, in a way, at a certain level,

it's, I could make a film about anybody or anything, in principle. So it starts with a sort of empathy? Yeah, generally, yes, of course. I will have notions. I mean, it varies. I mean, as you heard me say yesterday, I, with, say, Secrets and Lies, that was a very definite decision to make something, a film about adoption. And with Vera Drake, it was a very deliberate decision to make a film about an illegal abortionist before the 1967 UK abortion act. But with a lot of my films, it's, I've got notions floating around.

They're more of a feeling sometimes than an actual concrete, certainly, certainly, many of them have not had what you could call an idea in the Hollywood script sense. Yeah. So I will get together actors. And the deal with every actor is, I can't tell you anything about it, there's no script. We don't know what we're going to do. We're going to discover what it is by doing it. And incidentally, you will never know anything about the whole thing except what your character knows. So that makes it possible to explore through improvisation truthfully, you know, situations.

So I work separately with each actor. I get each actor to talk about a whole load of people they actually know, you know, very randomly. And then I start to choose sources from those lists and we start to put them together and start to build characters. But the characters we create are a creation, obviously. And then we spend a long time building relationships

through discussion, through some research, but mostly through improvisation, character work, and all the rest of it. And I work with each actor on every aspect of the character, including physically and all the rest of it. Language they speak and all that. And till we arrive at the premise of the film. And what's that, how long is that process generally?

Well, it's very, usually it's been often about six months on this film because of the size of the budget and the size of the cast, it was only 14 weeks. But that's before we start, then you, and of course during that time, you're also sharing decisions with the production designer, the costume and makeup designer, and particularly the cinematographer,

where... so that I can share with the cinematographer and the designers a sense of the kind of spirit of the film and the kind of look it ought to have when we shoot tests and do all those things, which are all part of the collaborative process. So, it's a constant process of discovery. Absolutely. The whole way we make these films

is to go on a journey of discovery as to what the film is. And in fact, at the end of that preparatory period, there's no film. I do a structure of some sort. And then we, scene by scene, sequence by sequence, it's location by location, we will work without the crew, build a, starting with improvisation, scripting through rehearsal, I never go away and write a script and bring it back, until it's very precise, and then we're rejoined

by the cinematographer and the rest of the crew, and we work out how to shoot it, and we shoot. So, through this process, you're scripting scene for scene. Yeah. And through the improvisations, you're making notes about moments? Yeah, it's more, yes, it's more complex than that. Right.

But during the preparatory period, what never happens is they say, okay, let's do that again. Right. But then when we get to the construction stage, we say, okay, let's re- again. But then when we get to the construction stage, we say, okay, let's re-explore that. Which is on set. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It has to be on set. I can't build a scene unless I'm in the location.

Because for me, it's about place as well as character. The interreaction of the character with his or her environment is part of the texture of what's happening. That's right, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, there is no such thing as doing an improvisation twice. An improvisation is an improvisation. Yeah. And you may do something else that starts from the same premise and may be similar,

but it's another thing. So, it's about the question of starting to do that and then gradually say, okay, let's stop, let's take that, let's fix that, let's swap that round, why don't you say that, and you know, until we arrive at something which is very precise. So on a day of shooting a scene, when you do a take. How many takes? Yeah.

Well, the interesting thing is this, I think, is that because the actors are rock solid in their characters and their relationships and how to play the character and all the rest of it, we don't have to do a lot of... you don't get what you do get on many movies. It's, okay, stop, I can cut, sorry, I couldn't remember the lines, sorry, I can... Sorry. Yeah, yeah, can we go again?

Stuff. And stuff to do with insecurity and... It's very disciplined Yeah, and therefore it's very you know, you we seldom unless this something happens or a Lufthansa flies over or whatever Yeah, you do the whole thing. Yeah, so we don't do a massive number of takes because it's rock solid It's it's there. I mean what will happen on a Occasion quite often is that we'll do a take and I'll say cut, and I'll say, okay, let's go again. And everyone says, why? Why do you want to go again for?

That was great. And I go again because I know that there'll be nuances, subtle nuances in behavior, which will be a bonus to have in the cutting room and the editing afterwards, you know. But yeah, what we take to the cutting room, to the edit, is pretty disciplined and organized. I mean, it's certainly not the kind, there are two fundamental misconceptions about what I do. One is that actors are improvising on camera, which they nearly never, occasionally, they might get the odd moment,

but it's hardly worth talking about. Yeah. Very disciplined. And the other is that therefore, you know, Occasionally they might get the odd moment, but it's hardly worth talking it. Yeah, very disciplined And the other is that therefore, you know the notion that somehow because the improvisation involved It's like you shoot a lot of wild footage And then you have to go and work out how to make sense of it in the cutting that doesn't happen at all You know, it's we arrive to the editor with a lot of discipline stuff Then of course since all films are made in the cutting room. Then, of course, since all films are made

in the cutting room, that's a fact of life, which we all know. Then it's about organizing what we've shot, and you might lose a scene or swap something around or whatever it is, and certainly find the best moment. So do you not have a full script until after the movie is shot? Absolutely.

Mm. a full script until after the movie is shot? Absolutely. Hmm. That's interesting. You know, I mean, it's not, it's probably unique to you. So they say. So I'm told. So is the only reason, well, what is the reason for actually even creating a whole script after all is said and done?

Oh, usually it's because it's got to be put in for an award or there are scripts that people have published. And I imagine that over time, you know, when you think about the first few movies, because of your age at the time, that you're dealing with contemporaries and issues that are happening in your life. And that must have shifted at some point. Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean, yes. I mean, it's interesting because this is an interesting thing about

hard truth. Yeah. Quite a number of people said, oh, obviously this is a post-pandemic film, post-COVID. The fact is, in terms of what it's actually about, we could have made the same film 10, 20, or 30 years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

Actually. actually about. We could have made the same film 10, 20, or 30 years ago. Yeah. Yeah, actually. However, yes, it is set in the 2020s, and therefore by definition, you know, COVID's happened. But it's not. It's mentioned a couple of, one and a half times in the film, but it's not, it's not what it's about. She's masked in one scene, I think. Yeah, absolutely. When she goes to the doctor. Right.

But with her character, that didn't necessarily have to be related to COVID. No, no, absolutely. Yes. Although, well, it would probably have its roots in the COVID experience. But I mean, there are interesting things. I mean, there have hardly ever been cell phones in my film. Yeah. I mean, as long ago as Naked,

there was one scene where the guy is on a cell phone in his car, the landlord. But, and that's before there were even called cell phones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Field phones. It was more a representation of class. Absolutely, yeah. But it's not really until Hard Truths Field phone it was more representation of class. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, but

It's not really until hard truth that there's actually a scene where Communication on the cell is actually crucial to what's going on really because it's not I would imagine in Terms of even with their existence. It's not you know, you're not concerned with that. No, absolutely It's it's about human engagement. Absolutely totally Yeah, but now you know to address it even a little bit It almost seems necessary because I think that most humans engagement is through these horrendous no question devices Yes, and well, I rewatch naked two nights ago, and I hadn't seen it You know since it came out so I was a young person. What year did that come out, the 80s?

No, no, we made it in 93. Yeah, and I was like a different man. Yeah, yeah. But a testament to a movie that is a real piece of art is that your relationship with it changes over time. Yeah. You know, because of where I'm at. Yeah, yeah.

Because when I first saw it, I remember I thought that character was annoying and somehow kind of pretentious. And now at this age, I'm like, well, he's a guy with problems. And wasted potential. Wasted potential and also like, again, with my girlfriend, she saw him as almost pre-schizophrenic. And you know, I didn't, it wasn't until the second viewing where I took a read that maybe

he had a deeper mental illness and just his wasted potential. Maybe, but maybe he's just a victim of the education system. Maybe he's a kid, he's a bright kid, and you can read books and all the rest of it. I mean, maybe he is a kid that if he'd had a decent education, instead of punishing him all the time for opening his mouth, they'd have encouraged him and stimulated him. He'd have been a different, he'd have had a different kind of journey, really.

I saw that movie described as a dark comedy. Do you see it as a comedy? I see all my films as a comedy. And the description of it as a dark comedy. Do you see it as a comedy? I see all my films as a comedy. Yeah. And the description of it as a dark comedy is not, it's fairly reasonable, I would say. I wouldn't necessarily use those words myself, but I don't object to such a description.

I mean, all my films are both comic and tragic. Sure. No question. And when you deal with what was the moment where, you know, is the question. And when you deal with what was the moment where, you know, you're coming out of Career Girls to do that historical piece? I mean, you know, how do you make that decision? Well, apart from anything else,

I mean, Topsy Turvy wasn't a film that he just made spontaneously. Yes. I mean, we'd been planningurvy wasn't a film that he just made spontaneously. Yes. I mean, we'd been planning it for ages. Yeah. And mostly just trying to get the money, really. Yeah. But I'd had the notion for quite a long time to make that film.

Apart from anything else, two things. One is that I thought at that stage it would be a good thing to turn the camera around on us, we who take very seriously the profoundly difficult job of amusing other people. And, but also, in a more naughtily, my part more cheekily, I thought, okay, I'm going to, I want to make a film that challenges the assumption about what I do, really. Yeah, right. And it does that. That was intentional.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. I like musicals and I like Gilbert and Sullivan's stuff. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. And, you know, I was brought up watching it. Yeah. And knowing all those songs and all the rest of it.

Sure. But I was so fascinated by the Victorian theatre. It's fascinating stuff. So yeah, I mean, that's what it was all about, really. So you were challenging yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And going into that, did the weight of making a movie of that scope, I mean, you had to

work a lot of different muscles. Yeah, I mean, they're the same muscles, just worked on them. It was a gas, it was tough, but it was great fun, you know, it was good. And all those actors that were in it, even all the ones in the chorus, they were all proper actors who could sing. And we used all the techniques and things which we've been talking about to bring it all to life, you know, and make it all happen. And you found the heart of the humanity of each one of those actors. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, and in terms of capturing Victoria and England, I guess, you know, enough of the structures were still around. Well, that's true as well. I mean, you know, the great thing is that it's all very researchable. Yeah. And we did massive, everyone involved, everybody did research on every level you can think of, not just theatrical and musical, but all sorts of things. It was like a mini university in a way.

Yeah, yeah. It was great. The truth is, I've made three period films set in the 19th century, that Mr. Turner and Peter Liu. The fact is that the 19th century is actually only the day before yesterday. I mean, really, I mean, my grandparents were born in the 1880 or something. The Peter Liu massacre, which is what the last film was about before this current one, was in 1819 in Manchester. Now I knew in the 40s when I was a kid, I knew old women who would have been old before yesterday. If I chose, perversely, to make a film set in the sixth or seventh century, I have no idea how we'd go about it, really. Because, you know, it's an alien, alien, alien world.

Right, but because the vestiges of this period were with you. They're around, and it's all researchable. And it's there, you know. You've only got to read Punch Magazine from 1885, and you're on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, yeah. So Mr. Turner, I would imagine that there was,

more so than other movies, you could see a bit of yourself in it. Yes, I haven't thought about that very much. Yeah. Yeah, not really. No? Not, no, I don't think that's what it's Yeah. Yeah, not really. No? No, I don't think that's what it's about really. But the sense of... I mean, being an artist.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, in that sense, of course. Yeah, and what was your fascination with Turner? Well, I mean, Turner is an extraordinary painter. Yeah. I, growing up, as a teenager, I saw Turner and Constable, those painters. I misread them as belonging in the same genre as the pictures of flying ducks over lakes and things that my parents and other people had on their bourgeois bedroom walls. Whereas in my bedroom, you know, there was, there were postcards of Picasso and things that my parents and other people had on their bourgeois bedroom walls. Whereas in my bedroom, you know, there was the postcards of Picasso and I even have to admit,

with some embarrassment, Salvador Dali, you know, and all the rest of them. Why did he become embarrassing? Well, because he's just a box of tricks, really. But after I'd been to Radron than been an actor for a while, I went to art school for a couple of years. And it was there with, amongst some other students, that I discovered Turner and started to really understand what we were actually looking at.

And so I've always had a real fascination in those extraordinary paintings. And of course, what you see in the film is the fact that a millionaire tries to buy his entire collection. And he says, no, I'm going to leave it to the nation. And he did. He died in 1852. And it wasn't until 1947 that they finally got their act together and there's now a Turner Wing at the Tate, Britain. And then you can go, the Turner, you can look at all the stuff, you know, and the archive was opened up to us when we made the film, it's amazing stuff.

So yeah, I mean, this was a guy, an artist, that challenged the status quo. I mean, he challenged the notion of figurative pictorial painting. I mean, he didn't know it, but he was the inspiration to the impressionists a few decades later. Sure.

Yeah, I mean, but he was about getting out there. I mean, okay, how do I relate to Turner, actually? He got out there in the wind and the rain and, you know, tied himself to the mast of a ship and all that stuff to experience the storms, the landscape, the weather that he was painting, and it's extraordinary stuff, you know. But for me, the notion to make a movie about it, apart from anything else, the tension,

the contradiction, if you like, between this epic spiritual painting and this eccentric, curmudgeonly guy was fascinating. So that's why we got Spall on the job. Well, it's interesting that people that have no choice but to do the art is still the most unique artist. Absolutely. Is that there's no Plan B, there's no other way of life.

Absolutely. I mean, he had to do it and he just did it. That is, do you? I guess so. That's true. And do you, like now you're kind of doing a press tour for this new film. Do you feel like, okay, onto the next, or do you take more time to yourself?

No, no, we are going to make another film. I think we are. It looks like we're getting some money together, not much. Again, I would like to do, or perhaps I should say like to have done, a contemporary film on the scale of my period film, but no one's interested in backing such things. What would that be? Like, what do you mean? Well, I mean, just a film with a lot of characters

and a lot of complex things to it. I mean, we've done it. I mean, you could say that Secrets and Lies had quite a lot of different component elements, but we'll make another film, but probably on a smaller scale, on the scale of Hard Truths, you know. Right. But I'm about to be 82...

Yes. ...in a few weeks' time. And I have some physical disabled issues. But I'm assured by everybody that that's fine. Everyone will look after me and we can get a movie made. The other thing that's completely rocked my whole project of its foundations is that Dick Pope, a cinematographer, shot everything I did since Life is Sweet in 1990,

died a couple of months ago. I'm sorry. Having been ill for a long time. And that's a huge loss because, you know, he wasn't just a cameraman who just pointed the camera wherever you told him to. He was an artist, and we collaborated in a most sophisticated way on the look

and the spirit of each film and everything, you know. So that's a loss. And incidentally, although, you know, his predecessor in my life, Roger Pratt, a great cinematographer who shot a lot of great movies, you know, his predecessor in my life, Roger Pratt, the great cinematographer who shot a lot of great movies. I shot High Hopes, Meantime and High Hopes, but then went off with Terry Gilliam and couldn't shoot,

and that's when Dick Pope came in. He actually died on January the 1st. So it's kind of like, you know, that's sad, because you know, people, interesting thing about cinematographers and directors, people say people say oh this director made this film Yeah, now I can do a I can put out on a stage in the theater Nobody else need be involved at all. Not even a designer. You just put the actors on the stage Yeah, but you can't make a no director can make a film without that important contribute

Oh, yeah cinematographer, you know. The whole thing. I can't shoot. I don't know. You know. Yeah. So it's a massive loss. But hey. Do you see when you watch other films, do you see ones that you like or that, you know, in terms of finding another cinematographer which I know is well we find another cinematographer and did hope himself

would be horrified if he thought I was gonna stop just cuz he's died he'd give me a very hard time about that yeah how much are there large pieces of scenes or scenes in entirety that get left out but shot? Not much. Not much. Hardly, you know, occasionally for one reason or the other. I mean, there are times when you say, actually, this doesn't really contribute and it's, we're wasting time. Yeah, right. You know, and there have been times when I've sort of slightly lost it and got involved in shooting stuff that,

I mean in Secrets and Lies for example. You know, he is a high street photographer. Yeah. So he shoots weddings. And Spall and I spent a couple of whole Saturdays out watching a real photographer photograph weddings. And I got, it was quite a whole big thing. So I shot a lot of, a whole sequence of him going to a house and shooting the bridesmaids and doing all that. When we put it together, we thought this is actually a massive red herring really. I mean you got a moment of him doing that and a moment with him at the beginning of the film photographing a bride. Yeah in a smart house

Yeah, but you don't need and you know so that whole chunk got dumped right, but that doesn't really happen very much It's it's a rarity really. Yeah What we shoot is what we need and that's what we use. Well, it's interesting, you kind of told the story last night about producers wanting things removed. Well, that was a rare, that's hardly ever happened, in fact. In fact, that was a unique occasion. I think that was motivated by some very negative and irrelevant preoccupations. Yeah. But that shouldn't be taken as the norm because the deal with my films

is we say to backers, there's no script, we can't tell you what it's about, we can't discuss casting and please don't interfere with this at any stage of the proceedings. give us the money. And either they say, fantastic, here's the money, go away, make a film, or they tell us to fuck off. I mean, it's straightforward, isn't it? And most of the latter happens. Now, my late producer, Simon Charlie Williams, who died about 10 years ago of cancer,

would come back from meetings with potential backers and say, they don't mind that there's no script, they don't mind that there's no script, they don't mind that they don't know what it's about, but they will assist on a name, meaning a Hollywood star. Oh, okay. And I'd say, let's walk away. And you say, yeah, well, they'll give you any amount. Let's walk away.

I mean, the minute there's any suggestion that anyone's going to really interfere, I want nothing to do with it. I mean, what's interesting about Peter Lou is that Amazon Studios were new on the block at that time. Yeah. And they came in and backed it without any reservation or hesitation and never interfered with it at all and were really supportive. Yeah. But they were new on the block back in those days.

Right. So, it would be wrong to interpret that story which I told which you're referring Yeah as being the norm because it was a very exceptional circumstance, but you fought the fight and got yeah Yeah, and we won the pond And what was the relationship in those along those lines early on with the BBC? Oh, that was fantastic Yeah, the BBC were great were great in that period. This is not so anymore, by the way. You'd go in and they'd say,

okay, no script, don't know what it's about. That's the budget, that's the deadline, go away and make a film. And it was fantastic. And you know, a whole bunch of us. I mean, what's important about that in the wider scheme of things is it's the only place you could make films in the UK was for television, mostly for the BBC, not

entirely. And we used to sit around and we used to say, you know, we make these films with all our integrity and skills, but the world out there thinks there's no British cinema. We don't go to festivals. They're not regarded as movies, because they're television films, et cetera. They're made on 16 millimeter, blah, blah, blah. And it was frustrating in a way. Although, you get a massive, there were only three channels, you know, on television.

And you'd get huge, huge number of viewers. And then, as you know, in the mid-80s, the fourth channel, Channel 4, started in the UK. And their remit was to collaborate on and back independent productions. And so suddenly it was possible to make movies. And they've been involved in nearly all of my films, right down to Hard Truths. Yeah. So yeah. But early on too, I think that's how Python happened

was because of the BBC. Oh, it was a BBC comedy show every week. Yeah, totally. But the freedom of the artists to kind of. Totally. Yeah. You were encouraged. I mean, the BBC was a very liberal organization.

It no longer is, but that's another story. Yeah. Well, look, it was great talking to you Mike you fantastic Thank you. No good. Good luck. Thank you you too There you go, that was Mike Lee what what an honor just spectacular and he took time to sign kids posters she had ordered a poster of one of his movies. And which one was it? High Hopes, I think.

And he was very sweet and just a great guy. Hang out for a minute, folks. I used to say, I just feel stuck. Stuck where I don't wanna be. Stuck trying to get to where I really need to be. But then I discovered lifelong learning, learning that gave me the skills to move up, move beyond, gain that edge, drive my curiosity, prepare me for what is inevitably next. The University of Toronto School of Continuing Studies,

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So I kind of like began my new day, and the first thing I decided to do was take a car, not my car. It was in the middle of the night? It was during the day? It was, it was like four in the morning. Oh, the worst time to be that fucked up. Absolutely. So I took it, I got in a car, and I drove it, not anywhere near that party or near where I lived at the time, but I drove, and I drove it really fast into the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power at the intersection of Pico and Genesee and it was, yeah, it was a pretty

cataclysmic car accident. There was no one else involved except me, thank goodness. I didn't know that at the time. I did have to ask the cops if I had killed anyone and they told me that I the time. I did have to ask the cops if I had killed anyone. And they told me that I had not. And yeah, I took out three parking meters, two trees, a light post, and then the building and the car. And you were in the building? In the building.

You drove into the building? Yeah, half in, half out. Now, you don't remember having any sort of anger or water problems at home no no it had nothing to do with my there was no bill there was no momentary like those fuckers water and power I saw Chinatown yeah to get the latest WTF collection episode plus new bonus episodes twice a week sign up for the full Marin just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus and a reminder

Before we go this podcast is hosted by a cast and a special Thanks today to Morgan over here at bad ladder for hosting me in a studio. I guess we'll use some guitar from the Vault. I'm gonna be a good boy. I'm gonna be a good boy. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda cat angels everywhere.