WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1608 - Richard Gadd

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

Richard Gadd created the Netflix series Baby Reindeer as a way to work through traumatic events in his life that were hard to process. But it became equally difficult to process the runaway success of the show and the impact it had on his life. Richard talks with Marc about how his early days doing standup in the UK and writing stage shows for himself were underscored by a lack of boundaries and a feeling that something was missing inside of him. He also explains why his follow-up to Baby Reindeer is a personal gamble. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In a darkly comedic look at motherhood and society's expectations, Academy Award-nominated Amy Adams stars as a passionate artist who puts her career on hold to stay home with her young son. But her maternal instinct takes a wild and surreal turn as she discovers the best, yet fiercest, part of herself. Based on the acclaimed novel, Nightbitch is a thought-provoking and wickedly humorous film from Searchlight Pictures. Stream Night Bitch January 24th only on Disney Plus.

Wow, I've got a lot of traveling coming up. Let's see where I'm going. Sacramento, Napa, Colorado, Santa Barbara, and that's just this month. If you're going away, you can have an Airbnb co-host handle guests at your house so you can make some extra money while you're away You get a high quality local co-host who manages everything about your place and deals directly with guests while they stay at your home Find a co-host at Airbnb dot ca slash host Alright, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers?

What the fuck buddies? What the fuck, Nick? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. WTF. Welcome to it. I'm okay for now.

Cats are safe, Kit is safe, winds are picking up today. I don't know what to do with that. I don't imagine anybody has the brain to manage what is happening out here. I'll talk about that in a second. But I did pull myself away from the panic of being home and the need to be close to the cats if we needed to evacuate to go do a couple of gigs because I felt like I had to because if I didn't show up for that and I look again I did this situation out here is fluid and it's tragic and it's fucking

incomprehensible I went up to Sacramento and Napa, Sacramento Friday night, and I flew up there, Ali Malkovsky came with me and she opened, but I was in shock and traumatized and fucked up, and I had to move through it. And I did it on stage for an audience that was incredibly supportive and understanding and understood what was happening in the world, the world of their state, Los Angeles. People had friends, family there, here.

And it was kind of an epic experience for me to move through my feelings in real time, which is really what I do. And I had not done an hour in a while, and that was an incredible, incredible night. And then we went to Napa. We did a show in Napa. That audience was difficult.

It was tricky. I had a couple of outbursts, not outbursts. One was supportive. A woman needed to give me a gift, and she needed to do that in the middle of the show and tell me how much she loved me, and she gave me her little knitted cat and her brass ganache, which is actually very nice,

but it was interesting when that happens and I could handle it. And then we had a drunk woman who was yelling and that had to be dealt with. So it was a lot of up and down and me still being in a fairly fucked up, traumatized, vulnerable place and wanting to do the material

that requires a certain presence of openness. It was hard to kind of wrangle the anger in when people are disruptive or it's disjointed, but that's the nature of comedy, and we did okay. Today on the show, I've got Richard Gad here. He's the writer, actor, comedian, and the creator of the Netflix series Baby Reindeer, which had a profound effect on me.

I don't know if you've seen it, but to me, it was deep, the creator of the Netflix series Baby Reindeer, which had a profound effect on me. I don't know if you've seen it, but to me it was deep and it was courageous and it was fucked up and amazing. He won three Emmys for the show and his performance is nominated for a Screen Actors Guild Award. And I'll give you a little more preface to him in a minute. Hopefully I'll be in Fort Collins, Colorado

at the Lincoln Center Performance Hall on Friday, January 17th, this Friday. Boulder at the Boulder Theater on January 18th. I'll be in Santa Barbara, California at the Lobero Theater on Thursday the 30th. San Luis Obispo, California at Fremont Center on the Friday the 31st. Monterey, California at the Golden State Theatre on Saturday the first

Iowa City at the Ingler Theatre on February 13th It's a Thursday Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place on Friday February 14th and Kansas City, Missouri at the Midland Theatre on Saturday February 15th And then I'll be doing shows in North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, Michigan. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all of my dates and links to tickets.

Knowing what to do in the face of what's happening, it's difficult. It's been a stressful and a terrible few days out here. These fires are ongoing, they're terrifying, and I am lucky as of this moment. I'm safe, as I said, the animals are safe, Kit is safe, Kit's animals are safe. Many people have lost everything, and it's just fucking incomprehensible and tragic, and it's just fucking incomprehensible and tragic and it's heartbreaking. But it was always a possibility out here.

It's just fucking devastating and I just, I feel awful for so many people that are dealing with the destruction of their entire lives, entire communities were decimated. It looks like a fucking nuclear bomb went off in some parts of LA County. And quite honestly, having been there, it feels a little bit like post 9-11 here in terms of the collective trauma that people are moving through. There was always the possibility of this.

It was part of the devil's bargain you exist with to live in this city. Earthquakes, fires. Some part of you was in enough denial or blind faith to just accept it and hope for the best. Those days are fucking over, man. It just seems that if you are a rational person, you would move as quickly as possible from this fucking city. And I imagine many will. And I am making plans. I mean, fuck it. This has always been possible.

And it's fucking time to go. It's unsustainable. I mean, checking the app for fires every few minutes. And then I realized while doing that, that this feeling of needing to check to see if you are in the path of destruction over and over that it's going to be a lot like checking your news feed after January 20th. Where's the fire? What has he done? Am I safe? Can I live my life freely without overwhelming fear? I really don't know how I will manage in that much fear. I

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It wants you to think progress rather than perfection. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology based approach. Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com. Noom.com. So again, the cats are okay. You know, they bounce back pretty quickly. You know, they just, and they were okay in the hotel room. You know, I really think, you know, when we self evacuated that one night and I put him in the bathroom, you know, chart and then they all started running around the hotel room and well, you know, within an hour, I think Charlie could have lived there. He was like, this is okay, I'm okay,

manageable space, you're here, fuck it. This is where we are now. Sammy, the moron, was kind of he came out to into the room and he's like, I don't know where I am, but Charlie's here. And Buster, the intelligent one, the sensitive one, he wedged himself under the bed. But you know, that's the way cats are. And that's, you know, it's amazing how And that's, you know, it's amazing how attached I am to those cats in these crisis, and now they all have their own carrier for quick transport. In the case of fleeing, but you know, you get attached to these animals. And I've always been amazed at how much my life revolves around them, and I don't think that's sad. I think that's just the way I love the things that I am capable of loving without fear. I mean, I remember when I was divorced, I really, I thought like maybe I'd just better move into an apartment and let

this old house go, the old house. I remember thinking like, I can't do that because Boomer lives outside and what the hell is he going to do? So I'll just suck it up and take the hit because my outdoor cat Would be displaced those times have changed Displacement seems a certainty now This episode is sponsored by Squarespace if you're new to Squarespace. I've got good news. You're getting the best version of Squarespace that's ever been when you start using it today. Squarespace has always been the best platform to create your online presence.

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it was just a day in or maybe a day and a half two days into the horrendous fires out here and there is a point during the interview where you know, we get a An emergency during the interview where we get an emergency evacuation alert, which turned out to have gone out to too many people. It was not about my neighborhood, but it happened. You can sort of feel that moment of, fuck, what are we doing? Are we leaving? Is it over? Are we, what are we doing?

And a couple of things I should set up for this. So in the conversation, you know, we talk about, he did a couple of stage shows at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival that were the kind of the basis of Baby Reindeer. And if you haven't seen it, I just want to, you know, in terms of reference here, you know, the Baby Reindeer series

was based on a couple of different shows, things from a couple of different shows that Richard did, one being Monkey See Monkey Do, and that was about the sexual abuse that he was victim to as an adult by a person in the business, and he was drugged and abused sexually. And that was from Monkey See Monkey Do. And then there was another show that was actually called Baby Reindeer, which centered around a person who wound up stalking him.

And, you know, there's a lot of things going on with that. When he says there are things he can't talk about, it's because Netflix is currently being sued by a woman who alleges that she was the one being depicted in the show. And that is ongoing. But this was an honest and, you know, connected talk. And it's heavy. I mean, it may be triggering for some people

in terms of sexual abuse or stalking. But I think it's handled personally and with a certain amount of process. It's grounded. Richard is also nominated for outstanding performance by a male actor in a mini-series or television movie at the Screen Actors Guild Awards. And I didn't know anything about him.

And I actually thought he was a bit older than he was. And I didn't really know the nature of his theatrical work or his standupup work, so, you know, it was interesting to talk about that. This is me talking to Richard Gad." In a darkly comedic look at motherhood and society's expectations, Academy Award-nominated Amy Adams stars as a passionate artist who puts her career on hold to stay home with her young son. But her maternal instinct takes a wild and surreal turn as she discovers the

best, yet fiercest, part of herself. Based on the acclaimed novel, Nightbitch is a thought-provoking and wickedly humorous film from Searchlight Pictures. Stream Nightbitch January 24th only on Disney Plus. I've been in LA this time, you know, for a while, but I was in New York and I was in Boston, San Francisco, a lot of different places. Chasing the dream. Nice, yeah. The comedy dream. Gigging around everywhere. Well, you know, when you start out, you want to kind of, you got to find a scene where you can work. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, figure it out. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And boy, does it take a while.

Right? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I have no sense of like, you know, it's weird. I went to England years ago near the beginning of the podcast and I had no sense of that scene there. So it was a little weird because I wanted to interview people, but I did end up, I ended up interviewing Stuart Lee, which was great. Yes.

But then I also ended up interviewing Simon Munnery. Yeah, yeah. You know him? I love Simon Munnery. You do? Yeah, yeah. I used to do his thing called film school, which was a show he did, and I'd always do alternative things at it.

It was one of my favorite nights to do, actually. Yeah, he's brilliant. What was it? It was kind of like he would do, it was like of like he, he would do, it was like a projector and he would do a lot of, uh, it was almost like a comedy show, but he had shadows with it. He was making shadows with his hands, little doodles on pieces of paper. Yeah. And he would just almost commentate the shadow movements of his hands.

It was quite smart. And then he would get a guest on and I would do five minutes of sort of alternative stuff and then he would come back on. Oh my God. Yeah. But you came up in that, in England. Yes. Well, I came up in Scotland.

So I started off in Scotland and I- Like where in Scotland? Yeah, so I started off, I went to school in Fife in Scotland, and then I went to Glasgow University to do an English degree, English Literature and Theatre Studies degree. But you grew up there.

Yeah, I grew up in Scotland. Yeah. And then I went to Glasgow and I started doing it at the student union and then I started doing it at the Stan Comedy Club. And the Stan Comedy Club, the Red Rawls on a Tuesday, that was where I cut my teeth in a big way. How long ago was that?

That was 2011, I think, if I think back. So how old are you? I'm 35 now. Really? Yeah. Come on. Do you think I was older? Yeah That's that's what that's what my life will do to you It makes is I've aged about ten years more than I have but so 2011 so about what you know

Like 15 years you've been doing stand-up. Yeah about 15 years and like what what what was it? What part of Scotland you grow up in I have no sense of it Like I had one, you know and I've talked about this a lot on the show, I had one horrendous experience at the Fringe that had nothing to do with anything. Like if I told you about it, you'd be like, that just sounds like the way it is. But for me, it was like a month of just devastation.

Yeah, that is what, even when it goes well, the Fringe can be tough. I mean, it's so funny, because every time I would gear myself up to go to the fringe I would always think to myself, I'm not going to let it affect me this month. It's one hour's work a night and I just need to get through it. But whatever happened by the end of the month I would be like a dead man walking. It's so tough isn't it? The adrenaline, the circus of the city. It's crazy. It is and if you you don't draw crowds, it's like it's leveling.

Oh yeah. I mean, I remember doing a month in, and in fact that's in baby reindeer episode four, I did a month in a pub called the Argyle Bar, which was right out of town, almost people who went to the Fringe didn't go to this, even this area. How did you, who got you that venue? You did? I was so new. I got myself that venue.

And I was so new that I, new that I think they were just like, who is this guy? Let's just give him a really bad venue. And I had to cancel it most nights because nobody came. And then somebody, I remember this one time, one person turned up and I just took them to the bar for a drink instead. So I really, I feel like I earned my stripes in a way. You know? But like when you start out though, like what was the area you grew up in? I grew up in Fife. Fife, so.

Yeah, I grew up in a small town called Wermit. No one's ever really heard of it, but it's about, it's just if you go to Dundee, which is like the fourth biggest city in Scotland. Yeah. It's just over the water. So if you look over the water, it's there. Is it pretty?

Yeah, it's quite pretty. I quite like it, but it's a very small town. It's got one shop and that's it. Like when I grew up,'s no bar nothing like that. You have brothers and sisters? Got an older sister. Yeah. And so like how do you what do you do? Well, not very much. I mean me and my friends would just kind of

I honestly in a lot of ways I wouldn't change it for the world But me and my friends would just mess around kick a football about right sketches keep each other entertained So you have friends in what in like grade school where that you were comedy with yeah, well, well, it wasn't really comedy We just we just sort of we did anything to keep ourselves entertained But it was it was a town where nothing happened and if you need if you wanted to go to do something like the Dundee Are you saying Andrews? Yeah, you would need somebody to drive you 20 odd minutes to get there Yeah, so there was there was really nothing to do but you know, I 20 minutes isn't terrible Yeah, yeah, but at the time in a weird way, it felt like it was quite hard. It felt like quite quite a lot

Yeah, when you were a kid, you had to wrangle the parents take you somewhere so you could have some fun like to a movie Yo, yeah, like cinema you would have to be you'd have to get your parents You have to find someone's dad who would take all of you along. And it was just quite a cutoff place, so we had to find our own entertainment. So we just, you know. But were you inspired by comedy early on? Oh, massively, yeah.

So that was another big way I spent my childhood. I devoured sitcoms, everything like that. I grew up in the age of The Office, you know. What else are you gonna do? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you watched the BBC? Yeah, I watched the, the UK Office was a big inspiration for me growing up over here stuff like Arrested Development Yeah, and I just devoured DVDs really as well with my friends and yeah

Just found any ways to distract us so someone you're hanging out with your friends and you're writing sketches. You're inspired by these shows Yeah, absolutely. And and just I just, always from a young age, I just felt like I escaped the boredom perhaps by writing sketches and comedy stuff. Do you think you're, like, do you consider yourself first a writer? Yes, that's a good question. I think, I'm not sure.

I'm honestly not sure how to answer that question. I think maybe, maybe. Well, I mean, I think the question is like, because having spent time in Edinburgh and then seeing what that festival expects out of performers, I guess it would really be hard to determine, and I don't know what your career has been like, but I mean, do you consider yourself like a, you're not, you're obviously not a mainstream comic. So you weren't, you weren't touring like, you know, comedy clubs, were you? Well, I tried, I tried, but never with much luck. I would occasionally get the paid gig,

but, but you know, my stuff was so out there. I mean, you see it kind of in baby reindeer kind of portrayed, but a lot of comedians didn't like me being on bills with me because I'd always tip the atmosphere in a peculiar direction. Peculiar, that's a diplomatic word. Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. I could kill the atmosphere to the point where people would almost be like, I've had some terrible gigs. I've been heckled, booed.

At comedy clubs. At comedy clubs. At comedy clubs, yeah. Heckled, booed. You know, one guy tried to attack me once. And because I think when, especially in the kind of classic comedy club sets on the Friday, Saturdays, people don't want to see what I'm doing. They want escapist laughter and not to see someone try to subvert the form or whatever. And it would really rub people up the wrong way sometimes

I haven't paid for this. I don't see this guy. Have you seen Stuart Lee? Yeah. Yeah, I love Stuart Lee Yeah, I mean early on I mean he I think he quit comedy not because he would necessarily make the Environment peculiar but just because they weren't getting on board with his groove, you know Yeah, and at some point he you some point he stopped and then he came back. It was a very profound thing to me when he reframed it for himself coming back, was that instead of being angry at them, he was able to have a certain amount of empathy

for the fact that they didn't know what they were getting into. They didn't come expecting that, but there were plenty of people who did. So I don't know if that's the same experience with you. Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I have a lot of respect for that. I actually didn't know that. I actually didn't know he stepped away and came back. But yeah, I could see why that happens. But he kind of found his audience, didn't he? And then that audience grew and all that kind of stuff. And I think that kind of happened with me. It wasn't until I started

doing the Fringe shows and kind of carving out a certain atmosphere But when does it start to like, you know when I have to assume, you know and watching You know baby reindeer and having not seen The the show that it's based on but knowing that you did a bunch of other shows and you have you kind of know the zone you operate in So, you know, do you track? like when did Shit start to go south when did shit start to go south? When did shit start to go wrong for you, you know, as a kid?

Because you draw on it an awful lot, I imagine. Yes, yeah, yeah. But was there a point where you started to lose control? Like, lose control of? Of life. Oh, well, I mean, yeah. I mean, I'm not even sure where to sort of begin. I think when I left home and suddenly...

At what, 18, 19? Yeah, to go to university. I do remember thinking that there was kind of something missing inside of me. I remember sort of once I was out in the real world and I was out of like a small town where I had my friends and I had my family. I just remember getting to university and thinking, I don't know who I am, having that kind of hole in the soul thing. No, I have it. And it's like, it's a real problem in terms of like, if you kind of move through life with a sort of feeling that you don't have a complete sense of self. Yeah. You know, and I think that's why in terms of Baby Reindeer when I watched it that I could understand it is

it kind of puts you, you have a kind of gaping hole. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That is easy to be taken advantage of because you don't have the sense of self to fight. Yes. And so you get into situations out of the desire to want to be part of something, and then it becomes a disaster. Pete Slauson Yes, exactly. Exactly. It leads to a lack of self and a lack of almost ability to be boundaried with people. And I think people who are of a bad nature can sense that in some moments.

Pete Slauson Of course. Pete Slauson a low self-esteem that could be taken advantage of. Pete Slauson You're like food to them. John Larkin Exactly, exactly. And that's kind of how it all kind of went a bit fresh. Pete Slauson But do you track it to something? I mean, do you track it to your childhood? I know in Baby Reindeer, there's sort of a kind of a

full circle moment with, you know, your father and what's suggested there about his past. But I mean, in growing up, I mean, what kind of family, what'd your dad do? My dad was a scientist. Yeah. So, so completely different world to, to... So that was a fictionalization in terms of what was in Baby Reindeer. I don't think he, I don't think his job was specified. In fact, I think in some of the scripts, he, it was, but he, he was very much of the, I don't think you'll mind me saying this, the crazy scientist ill. Oh, really? The kind of crazy. But a good guy.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And family was kind of loving. There was just, yeah, it's, you know, there was a lot, I mean, childhoods are always kind of quite complicated, quite hard to juggle. School could be tough in places, you know, I definitely grew up in a neighborhood where you know Masculinity was certainly at the forefront of all right, I think some of the kids around like that and you know certain the school was kind of It's not the roughest school in the world. It was a state comprehensive like a free school. Yeah Government school kind of thing, you know, and in my early years,

I was kind of picked on quite badly there. For what reason? Were you nerdy or were your interests weird? It's so funny talking about this because it's almost like the first time I've even unlocked it in so many years. But I remember when I was a kid in my, I played for this tennis club, the Wermit Tennis Club.

And I remember I had a birthmark on my head, which is actually faded. And it was the shape of Africa. If you can believe this, the continent and, um, they would call me. Tea stain and I can't believe I'm talking about this because I, uh, and then they would like, uh, because they would like, Oh, I've dropped a tea bag on my head. I mean, and then they would, you know, it was, it got to a point where they were like singing songs about me on the bus and stuff like that. And then, uh, you know, they would sing like mean songs and I'd sit at the front and I always remember it got quite bad at one stage that I was coming back on the school

bus and I remember, um, I would just be the whole way back on the bus thinking, I hope they don't sing about me today. I hope they don't sing about me today. And I remember I would start to hear singing, but then realized they weren't singing. So my anxiety was so great that I had started to hear the singing. And I remember that's when I realized that things that actually got quite bad, bad with the kind of bullying of it all. I remember this one stage. I remember one of the guys in particular, it's kind of funny now, because I passed him when I went back home. He's about up to my shoulder now. And it's quite funny. Yeah.

You know, when you look back at these kinds of characters in your life. And they were so overbearing and had such an impact. And then you get older and you're like, it was you? Yeah, absolutely. I remember this guy gave me a hard time day in, day out. And I remember going home, sitting with my sister, coming up with something I could say to him on the bus the next day. And I decided to say, at least when I go on holiday,

I don't have to drop my mom off at the kennels, which is obviously very, not the right thing to say. Standard, yeah. But I kind of kid-put down down yeah kid ban or whatever and he went right to the front of the bus he must be about six years between us yeah beat the hell out of me you know and you know and that was six years older than you it's about six years older than me I think yeah he's still on the same bus yeah yeah but it's you know it's funny I you know it's funny talking about this

kind of stuff you know because I you question whether about this kind of stuff, you know, because I, you question whether I've kind of, but, but it causes you to be kind of tough in your, in your neighborhood to stick up for yourself, to not take much shit from people. And I think that that it hardens you. Well, it just, you have to be hard. But physically, no, you're not like, you're not a scrapper. No, no. I mean, I mean, I've been in five specific kids.

Peteus But in the sense of like, you know, being able to take, you know, a certain amount of verbal abuse or bullying because you're used to it. Peteus Yeah. Peteus You know, that's a standard, you know, comedic profile. Peteus Yes, yeah. Peteus I mean, you sort of have to have some kind of tough skin to do it. Peteus Yeah. Peteus You know, Harry Shearer, I think, think you know to paraphrase him. He told me that

The reason why people get into comedy is so they can try to control why people laugh at them. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah, I think I think that that is a very, you know, good good way of looking at it I think yeah I mean to come back to the kind of wider point of why I kind of saw that, because I think something will have to go, there's something lacking to have to go onto stage and be like, I want to make you laugh. I want your adoration. I want your respect kind of thing. Yeah, I think so. But I think sometimes it's just, and maybe we're similar, because I don't find it to be similar with a lot of people. But, but, you know, if you get

to if your sense of self or your insecurity or your anxiety is so much, I mean, there, the one thing about stand up is you can find yourself up there, or some version of you, if you want to fight it out, some sort of space you can hold, that's your own. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and, yeah, and I think I think, absolutely. And, yeah, and I think there was just something that I took. I remember when I went to school, at school, I remember I was cast in the play. I was cast as Macbeth in the school play. And I remember, like, it was a school production. I still stand by that. I think it was quite good. But I, and in fact it was, but I just got the bug and I kind of knew my place in the

world and I got some sort of adrenaline and affirm kind of knew my place in the world and I Got some sort of adrenaline and affirmation from it that made me think well This is this is making me happy and you had not done any acting before I don't like drama school I've been in classes, but that was the first time I'd actually and this is in what with the equivalent of high school Yeah, it was like a stay. It was secondary school. It would have been when I was about maybe 16 or something So you were interested in acting to begin with I did drama classes at school, but that was when I realized My mom base but like but like acting. Yes. Yeah. Yeah My mom basically was like you should audition for this and I went I had to know I just I know you should and then I

Additioned didn't understand Shakespeare. It was is this a dagger which you see before me speech Yeah, I didn't even know it was an invisible dagger couldn't figure out the language It was is this a dagger which you see before me speech. Yeah, I didn't even know it was an invisible dagger I couldn't figure out the language It was a complete disaster then I come in the next day in my head But I'm at the top of the sheet saying Richard Gav Mcbeth So I don't know how that happened, but but then do you think they were trying to make a prank on you? I'm not sure I think they generally just must have seen some something some energy or something in me But it was like still to this day one of the kind of most enjoyable enlightening experiences of my life. And I said to myself, well, I want to give this

a shot properly. My parents said, get a bit of education behind you. I went off to uni first and that's where it's going to come from. So you did the whole Macbeth without really having a sense of Shakespeare. You just memorized it and you, did you have a good director? Oh yeah. She was amazing. Patricia Resler. I kind of over everything. She was a great teacher at school, but I sort of Patricia Esler. I kind of over everything. Yeah, she was a great teacher at school Yeah, but I sort of learned about Shakespeare when I did it. Yeah thing and so did it speak to you the torment of that? Yes, it did. I I some part of me still wants to do Macbeth. Well, I mean, I think you should do it Yeah, yeah, why wouldn't you do it? Yeah, I'd love to I'd love to do Shakespeare and I became very

Indulged it. I indulged in Shakespeare Quite a lot. From that point on, you know, I started to really, and then when I went off to uni, I would do essays and do all that stuff and study Shakespeare. So I really got really into it. I kind of have pulled back a bit from it now, but it really was a kind of watershed moment for what I wanted to do with my life, for sure. Pete Slauson Yeah, but you chose comedy. I mean, Macbeth is not really a comedy. No, no. Comedy came at uni. It was funny because I remember kind of sleepovers and I never, I loved sitcom, but I didn't really love stand up too much. I actually love stand up a lot

more now than I did back then when I started in a studio. So you liked watching sitcoms and did you have a sense of like well these are written and I could write it I think that was always I think when I watched like the UK office the the Ricky Gervais the emergent one I remember watching that and I just became obsessed with it I thought was the funniest thing I thought was the most moving thing I still do to this day think it's one of the greatest things that's ever been made. And I researched into it, saw these two guys, oh, they wrote it and they were in it and

they directed it and they did all this stuff. But also it's also tonally up your alley. I mean, in the cringe factor. Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so I said, oh, this is what I would love to do. I'd love to have my own version of the UK office. Right. And that was always my goal, which really kind of got all the way to baby reindeer in a way. It's just my life took these dramatic turns that meant I wasn't really doing workplace comedy by time, by time I was like thinking about baby reindeer, if that makes sense, because my life had changed so much.

But well, when you got to university, what were you studying? I was studying English literature and theater studies. And did that satisfy your parents? You know, looking back, I think they probably thought I was going to go and I would get an education, I'd get maybe a job, and I'd grow out of my hobbies. But the second uni finished, I was back on it. I want to do this, I want to do that. But it's also like, though, but English and theater studies,

it's not like, well, that'll get you a job. No, no, exactly. It was very much in the vein of what I wanted to do. But it was at uni, I spent so much time in the drama society doing plays, writing plays, and then I discovered comedy and did that. So most of my uni time was spent on the circuit doing comedy.

But you did some, he wrote some plays? Yeah, I wrote some plays. With many people in them? Yeah. And I put them on and I'd be in plays that other people wrote or they put on, you know, something like Dr. Faustus or something. And I would, I would be in that. Audition for it? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So was this, was there two, was it the main drama school or was there like a two,

were there the serious actors and then they had a drama for English majors? Do you know what I mean? Oh, it was just called Student Theatre Glasgow. It was just like a bunch of students kind of putting up plays. Right. So it wasn't like part of the program. No, no, it wasn't part of the program. In fact, the theater studies and English degree was very academic.

In fact, the theater studies was the hardest part of it. It was all like space and place. I remember it was really theoretical. There was no practical site to it. It was all like space and place, I remember. It was really theoretical. There was no practical site to it at all. No history. I think I thought, oh cool, I'm gonna go and just do some drama for a bit. But it was very theoretical, very challenging.

Do you find that it stuck? Yeah, I think so. I think when I got to uni, I think I really got a sense of work ethic and what you get out of life if you work hard at university Because when I went I realized that I was very I actually wasn't very academically up to scratch. Yeah, you do four years in In Scotland and in the first year you need a d3 to scape to scrape through which is like the equivalent of a third Do you have the same grading system out here? No, not really. This all can be alien. Yeah, but so, well, you know, you need a certain grade point average, you know,

to be to get into a better school. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, you know, if you were kind of a mediocre student or a bad one, your choices of higher education become limited. Yes. Yes. So, yes.

So, exactly. So you needed a D3 to get through the first year, which is a very low average. And I scraped through the first year, and then I needed a B in the second year, which was such a leap up for me. This was in university. Yeah, yeah, to get through the next year,

and almost, and and somehow scrape through. And I remember thinking, I'm not going to get an honors degree unless I figure out how to properly write structure essays, all these kinds of things. Honors, what is that? Is that the same as here that, you know? Yeah, like a proper, like full on sort of undergraduate degree. And so I remember one uni, everyone went back home to work and I instead I went to the library at uni and worked through the summer, genuinely going back back to basics like how do you properly structure an essay and

how do you properly after your first year first two years if you can believe that I went to my honors year thinking I've got to figure this out because I keep I just had this writing papers is the worst yeah I used to write like like I'd write five pages of opening paragraphs like you know I could never make a fucking point yes yeah yeah and I And I just couldn't figure out how to structure it. The idea of trying to write one now is a nightmarish. Yes, exactly. And you figured it out?

Well, I just, I took up, and I busted my ass and I went to uni. So along with all the coursework I was doing, I was reading books on how to kind of write properly in a way. And I ended up getting a first in it and I'm getting the highest grade you can get. And I went from being someone who almost failed first year with a D average, which is really hard to do, it's hard to fail, to getting a first. And I never ever missed a single lecture or tutorial the entire time I was at university.

And so you applied yourself as they say in the business. And I realized that you get a lot out of it if you apply yourself. So alongside of this revelation and discipline. Yes, yeah, which is what it was, which is genuinely what it was. Yeah. You're off getting

battle scarred in the comedy world. Yes, I was doing all that at the same time. But what are these, so what's the arc? I mean, from now doing all that at the same time. But like, what are these, so like, you know, what's the arc? I mean, like from now, from what you're telling me, you know, you go to uni, you fuck up, and you realize like, you know, I can't get anywhere if I'm going to do this. And then you, you know, you lock in and you nail it. But what is something must be going on in the personal life that is not particularly good.

Well, like into spur me on like this. Well, I mean, well, to get to work, because you said, you know, from from when you were a kid to, you know, to baby reindeer that you there was a lot of changes that happened. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, there was always like when I went to university, there's always this there was always just this feeling that this cosmic sort of sense of, I don't know, kind of dread, dread, lacking fear, all these things that has driven me to the point of distraction through work and through various other things and has driven me on and work has been the main source to kind of patch over that and to explore that and to go through that. So it provided you a distraction from the immediacy of it consuming you. Yeah, yeah. And so, the natural leap once you got your skill set was to write about it.

Yes, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And I'm, you know, and it's quite self-flagellating in a way. It's quite self-punishing kind of journey journey of self autobiographical work. Well, but that becomes your your thing Yeah, so yeah, it's self-flagellating But like, you know, like if you if you write jokes for jokes sake or you're just making comedy for comedy sake You know, that's that's almost a different skill set. I mean, it's a good one to have but if you set out to explore yourself You're always gonna be like that self-involved person. But it sounds like, and I can relate to it, you know, what else is there? I'm not that interested in the other stuff, you know, ultimately I can do those kind of jokes, but the real revelation

comes from exploring your own psyche, right? Yeah, exactly. I remember when I, you know, it's obviously well spoken about now, like going, when I first go into the industry, and kind of taking advantage of it, sexually abused and drug abuse and all this stuff. And I, the revelation kind of came because I was doing all these, like that part of Baby Ranger is very real, that kind of, I was doing this silly comedy, this kind of very out there comedy, props, wigs, glasses, anti-humor, all this kind of stuff. And then my life was existing in this impossible juxtaposition between doing kind of frivolous laughs and kind of in-your-face humor

and sound effects and all this stuff. Was it working, though? It was kind of working. I mean, I think one of the things Baby Rain did does this, well, there was times when those gigs went really, really well. And I'd done shows in Edinburgh that had gone really, really well, which were kind of big, frolicy, laughy, sort of those kinds of shows, you know.

But taking the piss out of comedy in general. Yes, and being subversive and all that kind of stuff. But I realized that I was kind of, I just almost, I remember I'd gone through all this stuff, I was trying to come to terms with it, and I remember just thinking, I just can't don the wig and glasses this time around. You know, the sex of the other stuff.

Oh, so that happened in a similar way to Baby Reindeer. Yes, yeah. And I just couldn't do it anymore. And so I, instead, in the show in Baby Reindeer, it's like an impulsive decision to break down and start talking about it. But in real life, it was a show called Monkey See Monkey Do. And I planned, I meticulously planned an Edinburgh show where I was going to speak about Sexual abuse and being sexually abused and the assault it had on my senses on my sense of self Well, it's a masculinity and how many shows you've done previous to that I've done about three shows previously to that and they were all frivolous as you say

Well, they were high-concept kind of shows There's one called like waiting for Gado where I was only in five minutes of my own show and the whole show was done by my technician. You would hear me phoning the venue for example and I said you've got to fill in for me and the technician did 55 minutes of the show and then I arrived five minutes. And that was successful? Yeah, that was a really successful one. They were all, they all got their audiences. What were the other ones? There was one called Cheese and Crack Whores. Still the best title show I've ever heard.

What was that about? If I remember correctly it was about a break up and it was about me trying to do a comedy show whilst my, whilst having these awful flashbacks to how my awful breakup. So I would be doing a comedy show, about to be having a breakdown and then you'd hear the voices in my head and you'd hear the arguments that I had. Oh wow. So that was the first one. The second one was called Breaking God, which is a regretfully titled show,

because it was kind of cashing in on a fad at the time. What was the fad? Breaking Bad's an amazing piece of work. One of the best of all time, it's not a fad. But it was cashing in on the kind of the culture. Popularity. Yeah, popularity. And so people, I got a lot of Breaking Bad fans

expecting Walter White jokes. And then they got me sort of dressed as a mattress, because I was dressed as a mattress, because the whole idea was the show had been sponsored by a mattress company. So I had to wear a big mattress throughout the whole show. And then the show was kind of penetrated by constant sponsorship adverts whilst I was trying to do a show about my piecing back my memory whilst I have to be knocked out. So very high concept, Yeah crazy crazy show and and so what show

Brought you to the attention of the Predator So it's do you mean the show that came to terms with well No, not to came to terms with it like it because in the in in baby reindeer. He sees you Yes, trying to do something. Yeah, I'm not sure I can draw, you know, the actual, I'm not sure I can say the whens and the wheres and all that kind of stuff. I think that I can't get into that kind of detail.

But he did see you. It was just a figure I met when I go in the industry and they sort of, yeah, I mean, it was a pretty horrible, horrible time. You know, it's... Yeah, I know, I mean, I had, yeah, I mean, it was a pretty horrible, horrible time. You know, it's- Pete Slauson Yeah, I know. I mean, I had, like, I know what that's like. When I was in college, I had an experience with a professor who was of that ilk. And again, it comes down to, you know, them seeing that part of you that

is vulnerable and what they could take advantage of because you want to be like them or you want to do what they do or you Look up to them, you know, yes. Yeah. Yeah exactly exactly and and and I think I think one of the tactics filling somebody with confidence is sometimes The best way to get them to lower their senses and and if they lacking of self-confidence, it's easy to take advantage of them yeah, yeah, and and it's it was a really an end to pull myself out of that situation and piece myself back together and think about my future my Ambitions and try and get my life back on track felt borderline impossible. I mean I was I was that so you were personally devastated

It was unbelievable and and like how much coming out of the situation like that though Were you wrestling with in terms of blaming yourself? You wouldn't believe. You wouldn't believe. I would. Well, you would believe. Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, it was actually kind of, I mean, it was, it was, it was, I mean, it was devastating.

I mean, I don't, a lot of it, I think you go through a process first of denial or a process of minimizing and a process of Just desperately not thinking about it that you go through these stages of just just I can't I tell you what today I'm just talking to think about oh, it's there. Oh, no, it's not I'm gonna get it But eventually like you you cannot help but let it in and and and once you let it in it's devastating It's affects your brain. It affects your brain, it affects your mood, it affects your body. Right, because what happens is that when it's repeated

and the relationship is maintained, you have to reframe it. Yes, yeah, yeah. That you are a victim. Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you lack confidence, it's very easy to blame yourself. Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you lack confidence, you know, it's very easy to blame yourself. Yes, yeah. So then you left with no recourse but to destroy yourself. Yes, exactly, exactly. And I, it was just like, I just couldn't believe that it happened

and was someone I trusted. And also, like, a lot of it was, how could I be so stupid was part of it as well. But were you using a lot of drugs and alcohol? Oh yeah. With with by yourself too? No no. Oh yeah yeah and so so it was it it was just a terrible situation it's like waking up in a nightmare and then coming to terms with it and being traumatized your brain chemistry changes so all of a sudden like you're almost just struggling to even make it to the bus stop in time because of this kind of slushy sort of depression that just kind of like goes through the system. And then it, you know, I remember my mom and a friend of mine called James, you know, I

ended up opening up to them eventually but then it starts to affect your friendships because they become kind of compulsive. You start to compulsively lean on people as well because what you're dealing with is so... Were you trusting them and you don't know if you can? Yeah, well, I mean these people were great. It's just they become confidence in your life and then you become desperately seek their reassurance wherever you feel wobbly and it just has such a destructive impact on your life, on your friendships, on your work, on everything. And it got to

the point where I thought I have to come to terms with this and come clean with this because the secret was too much to bear. And so I did the 2016 Ed and Michelle Monkey See Monkey Do and that's, that was when I started to come to terms with it. Pete Slauson And, and, you know, so you set out, you sat down and you composed yourself enough. What'd you, how long did it take you to write it? Were you writing it in bits and pieces? I wrote it about a year. I finished writing for Gado and then I think I gave it maybe about, I think I wrote it about eight months and I remember going up, I remember just working

really, really hard on it, previewing it a lot. About the Monkey Seamonger? Yeah, and I remember at that time though, it was pre-Me Too, so not many people spoke just working really, really hard on it, previewing it a lot. What the monkey see monkey do? Yeah, and I remember at that time though, it was pre-me too, so not many people spoke about this. And I think, especially in the male sphere, it wasn't really spoken about. So at the time, it felt very dangerous almost to do, almost in a way.

Dangerous because you might be obliterated by the admission. Yes, exactly. I thought there was the fear of judgment, fear of friends and people family not being able to look at me in the same way. Right. And then the fear of going up doing a comedy show in Edinburgh about sexual abuse. Were you able to balance the comedy? Yeah, I think I did get it quite right. I mean, it's still probably my one of my most successful shows today. I mean, it won the Edinburgh Comedy Award that year, so it won the Perrier that year. But I remember going up and thinking it was gonna be the ruin of me. And I don't know what I was thinking. I had flatmates at the time who I think

thought it was a bad idea and were making jokes about it being a bad idea. And I went up expecting this really dark show with really dark material and jokes and everything to really almost be the death of me. I remember one person saying, what do you to get out this month and I said I want to make it out alive and that was my attitude going up there. It was almost like I don't know what I'm doing but it turned into the most like uplifting

euphoric healing month of my life you know. Well so much was at stake psychologically and emotionally for you. And I'd never felt acceptance like you know my football team came down and that I was really worried about them like My soccer team or whatever yeah, yeah, yeah, and they came down and they were people I really worried about and I remember the captain text me that night And he said I don't know whether you this text will mean anything to you But it kind of made me proud to be your friend, and I I just remember being like oh my god I was so worried you know well. Well, I think it's interesting because,

to speak about it specifically, because I have a bit that I'm doing now that is pretty good, it's personal, and it has to do with the possibility of sexual abuse, is that what is unsaid is that there is nobody not affected by this. Pete Slauson Yeah, yes. Pete Huston And nobody can talk about it.

Pete Slauson Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pete Huston And there's just very few people that get out alive without having some sort of traumatic experience around that kind of subject matter. Pete Slauson Yes. Pete Huston So, like, so I imagine because of the way you crafted it, it was relatable enough to where people can reflect on their own unsaid things, right? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think that was the thing that I really blew my mind about it because I think at that time, pre-Me too, not many people spoke about

it, not many people spoke about public, not many people spoke about it publicly. Steve McLaughlin Men. Karl Fischer Especially not men. But then men were coming up in their droves being like, by the way this thing happened and this thing happened. Steve McLaughlin To you? Karl Fischer Yeah, I've never thought about it like this way before, but you helped me think about it this way. Steve McLaughlin Oh my God, that's amazing, right?

Karl Fischer And it almost made me think, oh my God, this is like, there's a trap door here, the whole society's been abused in a way. And that's sometimes how it feels, you know, especially when you become a sort of spokesperson from this, you feel like almost everyone in the world comes up to you and says an experience that they've had because it's so, it hits. Pete Slauson Well, I think the key is what you just said, which is that, you know, I think most people, men certainly, are taught to suck it up, you know, just to, you know, to, you know, just deal with it.

Pete Slauson Yeah, yeah. You know, you keep it to yourself and, you know, put it, you know, compartmentalize it and live your life. But so many of the lives that people live and their emotional capabilities are so damaged from that, but they don't source it. Yes, yeah, yeah. So, I imagine on some level by being open about it that people were able to make these connections of like, Oh, my God, I've been doing this my whole life. And the reason I have this issue is because of this. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think,

you know, I think there's a thing I work for this charity back, oh, I'm not dropping that into bill sanctimonies, whatever, but they have a slogan is break the silence. We are survivors, break the silence. And that is true. It's the only way I think you can get through it is by speaking and not being ashamed of it. Because I think it builds so much shame up inside you

that it can create some real internal damage and psychological damage that the only way I know is to speak out about it. And yeah, because you could, what happens is I think is you could get like almost addicted to shame. Yes, yes. Oh and I was completely addicted. I couldn't look at people in the eye in checkouts. You know, I remember I'd be paying for food and I'd be like almost having a panic attack because I think that they could see on me, like smell on me. I would almost spit.

I remember I feeling like I could, the kind of feeling was so awful that it was like in my spit, it was in my blood, it was running through me, this horrible feeling of sort of defilement and abuse. So after you do the show, how does that change your life? Well, I mean, I just couldn't believe the response to it. It's, so I won the Perrier Award. I suddenly went from being a kind of part-time jobbing barman comedian to full-time. So it made me full-time.

I toured the show around Europe, around Britain, around Australia, kind of took around the world. And I think people started to just take notice of me as an artist almost in a way. And I think the more you do a show like that, the more you get used to talking about it, the more people come up, the more you stop becoming ashamed of it. Art has this amazing ability of dwarfing the magnitude of themes in a way and getting on top of them.

And I think by the end of the, I did it for a year. I remember saying, I'm just going to do the show for a year and about a year to the day it finished. Yeah. And the amount of personal growth I went on that year was unbelievable, really. And so when does the next show happen? It was about two years later, I think. I did a few acting jobs and stuff like that.

And then you were writing too? Yeah. I was trying to get my foot in the door of television. I came close so many times. I had so many different projects. And I felt like I came close so many times. I had so many different projects. And I felt like I came close so many times. In fact, Monkey See Monkey Do almost became a TV show. But it was kind of last minute,

there was a change in commissioners. And maybe in a way, it was too high concept. I look back and question whether it would have worked. Actually, but- High concept how? It was about me being haunted by a giant monkey. That's how you framed it. Yeah, yeah, and the monkey was the metaphor for everything I'd been through, but it was

like a sitcom where a man cannot escape a giant monkey almost in a way. It would demean it. Yeah, yeah, it just felt like maybe quite high concept, but anything can kind of work, I think, when done right. Yeah, but it's interesting that whatever time availed you in the next horrendous story that defined that show gave you the wherewithal to not mask it at all. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, exactly.

And, you know, I saw, and then when it came to Baby Reindeer, I just, yeah, it was- Well, when did that experience happen to you with the Martha character? And then when it came to Baby Reindeer, I just, yeah, it was... Well, when did that experience happen to you with the Martha character? Yeah, I mean, that went on for, you know, I was working in a bar, it went on for a large number of years.

So at the same time as the other stuff? At the same time as the other stuff. And I sometimes think that when, I mean, what's the... So not unlike the series?'s not unlike the series. It was both they were having simultaneously. It was just an awful time. And I think sometimes that happens when you're going through such a devastating,

you know, that's... Oh my God. There's a line in baby-reading, that's what abuse does to you. It makes you a stick and plaster full of life's weirdos, you know? And I think sometimes when you're going through a really difficult time, you do become a sort of magnet

for other kind of dangers in your life because you're so exposed almost, vulnerable and emotionally. Pete Slauson You can't have any boundaries. John Larkin Yeah, exactly. Pete Slauson So, yeah, of course, you just, you know, that's exactly true. And so, which did the predatory, the sexual abuse happened before, you know? Yes. Right, so that's sort of, the door was open.

Yeah, I think I was just, I think I was just looking for comfort wherever I could find it. Oh my God. Because that's what it does to you, you know? You look for anything to distract yourself from the kind of trauma of what happened and so indulged in work and and yeah and now I'm much more boundary than and did you seek professional help? Oh, I've completed therapy.

I've always done them all. We had a lot to work with. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I paid their kids through college. What was the most helpful? Oh, it's interesting. I sometimes think, like, I've got a brain where usually something starts off quite helpful, but then even if my brain manages to convince myself it's then not being as helpful as it is, and it starts to become a kind of something

that I battle with. Right. But I think I've tried, yeah. I mean, I think just standard talk therapy does really help. With somebody who can contextualize what your experience was. Yeah, absolutely. And I just think a place, the thing I think,

for me, what worries about therapy sometimes is a place you can go where you can just tell all your fears without judgment. It's a very valuable thing, I think, for people. And I think- And all your experiences. Yeah, exactly. And I think... And all your experiences. Yeah, exactly. And I think it saves you sort of bleeding them

into the world and telling everyone you meet and all, because that can be quite a compulsive habit to deal with things. When you do it on stage. Yeah, you do it on stage. And so it allows you to compartmentalize your life a little bit better. But yeah, it was just a real crazy time.

And the thing that even... So when you processed everything Yeah, it was just a real crazy time. So when you processed everything that became monkey see monkey do, the stalker situation was ongoing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just becomes part of your life that you have no control over. Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And, and then I remember when that situation resolved itself, I felt again, just awful like I was picking up my life again.

Yeah, how did it resolve itself? I, I, yeah, it just kind of stopped. I, it's obviously part of an ongoing thing that I can't unfortunately, I'd love to go into, into it more. That's okay. Yeah, yeah. But, but when it did sort of resolve itself you had the same feel I am yeah I had this sort of this feeling of just like oh that is really we kind of traumatized me and so that's when I decided to do a baby reindeer yeah well it breaks your brain yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, you just got through one, you know, an easier one in some ways to get yourself out

of into something that you had no control over. Yes, yeah. And it was very daunting to sort of process and get yourself out of. But once you did, you know, like it had to be a whole other level of the same type of feelings. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, yeah, and I got a lot from doing Monkey See Monkey Do. I got a lot of sort of self-examination. Yeah. And so I did it with that. And then that's what brought us to where we are now. To Baby Reindeer. Yeah. And that was a show. Yeah. It started off as a show at the Edinburgh Fringe 2019. It Baby Reindeer. Yeah. And that was a show?

Yeah, it started off as a show at the Edinburgh Fringe 2019. It was a one-man show. That was two years after Monkey See Monkey Do? Three years actually it debuted, yeah. Two years after I finished the show. And in the interim, like are you workshopping these things? I, with that show, I, yeah, I would workshop it every now and again, but always with my shows, I've kind of been booked to date and thinking that's miles ahead then it gets to about six months before and I'm like

I better get going on this and I yeah, and I it was a bit of a balls-to-the-wall kind of job Yeah, so because like I never understood that in that, you know in the sense of Edinburgh where you know, you have Comedians who are doing you know? Theater pieces, you know some looser than others. Yes, yeah. But like, you know, what is the process of working those pieces out? Yeah, I had a great director, John Britton, and a great producer, Francesca Moody, on that show.

And I had written the script, which basically was quite close to that. For Baby Reimdor. Yeah, which was quite close to what it ended up being. And I remember sharing it with him and Francesca. And they gave me a lot of confidence in it. I remember they really, they took to it and I respected them both so much. So that gave me the belief that I could step out of comedy

into theater and give them a shot. Cause Baby Reign was a theater piece rather than a comedy piece. But so the TV show is different from, because that combines both shows. It does combine both. So yeah, that is quite a big departure from the live show.

There's certain- And what was the structure of the theatrical production of Baby Reindeer? It was one man monologue. It involved a lot of projector, all voicemails, emails, beaming around the stage, a revolve, and I'd stand on stage and basically tell the story interacting with a stool and the stool took up the place of Martha and I'd move the stool around and I'd talk to the stool.

And it was me recounting the story kind of and this happened and then this happened and I had lots of twists and turns and a really good sound score. Yeah, very proud of that show. I'm proud of everything we did on it and it always seems though that that from the beginning no matter what you were doing was something you know beyond comedy in the sense of theater yes that like unlike a lot of comics that go to Edinburgh that tried to wrangle an hour of material into some themed work yes yeah you were always aware that you were making theatre pieces. Yeah, I think so. I think it was so funny because a lot of times when I did shows, they would be, and I went in the comedy section, they'd be like, he needs to get to a theatre,

this isn't comedy. And then I go to a theatre and the theatre would be like, he needs to get to a comedy section, this isn't theatre. And I existed in this middle. And I remember for certain awards that I'd be up for that month, I'm on GC Monkadoo, for example, the theater crowd thought it was too comedic to be considered for theater awards. And the comedy crowd argued that it was too theatrical to be considered for comedy awards. But I'm quite proud of that in a weird way. You're kind of escaping definition.

Sure. And I think that that is one of the parts of those shows I'm most most proud of I think and what what is your experience with other comics Do you have are you part of the community or do you feel what once again? Outside of it. Oh, I've got great comedy friends I think I've made some of the best friends have ever had from comedy and in so many ways and but but I I don't really Do comedy very much anymore. I think when the theater piece happened It sent me off on the path to the writing the Netflix show and then being doing some serious acting jobs.

And kind of it's slightly, the comedy slightly is quite in the background now, yeah. But comedy in the sense of doing comedy, but not in the sense of writing theater? I think I'd love to write theater again and do live. I'm definitely gonna do live stuff again, 100%. Oh just live stuff in general. But I think comedy circuit stuff or doing Edinburgh shows or doing the kind of comedy stuff, I think that's probably a thing of the past. I think just right now I'm just quite

happy about following the trajectory in terms of where it's going. Well yeah I mean it was a you know how did you get the support to do the TV show? Yeah, it was kind of quite mad. I mean, the theater piece exploded. Like, it really was like this word of mouth hit. Yeah, it was really big in Edinburgh. Yeah. And then it went off to the Bush Theatre in London and it did. Again, it was this big kind of explosive hit and I just found myself suddenly usually back in I would I would almost beg commissioners to take a chance on my show I'd write these massive treatments and scripts and be like please I do lots of work on spec but with this it was like the play that everyone just wanted

it they want to do this yeah and they all started competing with each other all these different streamers and there's a bidding war kind of it was yeah, about three of them. I'm not sure I'm allowed to say who actually but but there was about three of them and they all started to bid with each other. And I remember I would go into have these meetings and it was kind of funny because I'd usually go into these meetings with commissioners selling the project selling myself. Commissioners is like the word for development people? Well, just people who would say, yeah, we want to make this, we'll give you the money kind of thing.

At like Netflix or whatever. But I realized the play was so hot that all of a sudden I felt like I was going into these commissioner meetings and they were kind of pitching as to why I should do it there. And I suddenly realized that I had this kind of IP on my hand that was quite attractive to these commissioners. And you know, and Netflix really, really were kind of brilliant in terms of just being like, look, we believe in this, we believe in you. Go out, find a production company,

we'll back you, whoever you want to go with. Did you have a concept for the show at that time? Yeah, I did. Not too far from where it was. I thought I have to just keep the elements of what made the live show Successful, which was kind of a propulsive narrative like a fast-moving narrative emails on screen yeah, I'm a kind of interesting quirky score and And a brutally honest kind of first-person narrative from the beginning to had you considered folding the monkey see monkey do story in? Yeah, because it was a bit, it was

touched upon in the play. Yeah. It was in Baby Rain did the theatre show. Okay. So it was touched upon a little bit. Right. That stuff. So why not just tell the whole story? Yeah, so we talked about a flashback episode quite early on. Everyone was quite on board with it. And we though that flashback episode seems to be the one that Okay, hold on. No, is that is that is everything all right? Is that an evacuation? Yeah, I don't know where

isn't it? Oh, God, it's so bad. Awful everything that's going on. Yeah, let's see. No, we're okay, we're okay. I don't think it's, it's not, I think it's for another one. Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not here. It's fucking crazy, dude. It's crazy. I think I've got one on my phone as well, but.

Oh yeah? What does yours say? Evacuation order? No, not an order, no. Do you want me to put that down? No, we're okay. We're okay. We're okay. Is yours still up on your phone?

This is for a fire way over by the beach, by the other fire. God, it's a really, I have to say, it's like surreal being here and absolutely devastating for the people, you know, when you see all the footage and everything. Well, it's a Trump, it's a different kind of trauma. Because you, you know, we're always afraid of this, but we've never seen anything like this. And during, you know, the first Trump administration during kovat there was like a firestorm here

And it was just apocalyptic and you know, you spend a lot of time just wondering, you know, is it near here? How far is it? But like it's never been like this Kind of all around the city, you know, but it's weird Some of these are being downgraded, but some are still going. It's just a natural disaster time. Yes, it's so sad. I'm staying in a hotel down on Sunset at the moment and seeing people arrive, like evacuees arriving.

Yeah, I was down there the last night. I went down to Hollywood from here just because I just wanted to get ahead of it. And then that fire broke out right there. We're on sunset. Where are you? I was on one hotel. Oh, yeah. So that you have to fire across the street. We were a block away from the evacuation zone. Yeah, I was there too. I was looking at it from my window. Yeah, yeah, I could see unbelievable. And I thought it was safe. Like I went to Hollywood to, you know, get, or anyway, so Netflix got on board and you wrote the scripts, all of them? I wrote all of them, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I just really, I knew it was my chance in a way, so I had to kind of knuckle down and COVID happened. So I had more time than the most. And I just dug real deep, you know, and yeah, worked real hard. And yeah, we all did on that show. And, you know, in fact, a lot of people who work on the show, big fan of this podcast.

So hello, Veronica. And so, yeah, so, you know, we all broke our backs for it. And yeah, but I wrote day and night obsessively, constantly digging deeper and deeper. It was tough. It was tough. It was a tough process. Yeah. And the outcome, I mean, I imagine you didn't quite know what to expect. No, I didn't. I think, you know, a lot of people, I think I believed in it and I almost don't, I think I did believe in it

and I believed it would be a success. Did I believe it was gonna sort of like be this cultural explosion to the fact that I'm out here suddenly on this podcast. Didn't you just want to Golden Globe? Yeah, just want to go on globe as well. So I never would have thought that I mean Golden Globes wouldn't have even come into my mind Yeah stuff like that. Yeah, it just wasn't on my radar in the UK Pray and hope that you maybe get BAFTA or you would you be nominated or maybe be in back to contention

Yeah, but but I wasn't even thinking about that I knew I was making this dark weird idiosyncratic show that maybe no one would watch but might be hopefully artistically celebrated. And that was probably what I thought. Yeah. Yeah. And I kept hearing the words. This might be a cult hit. And usually cult hit means no one will watch it. But a few people might like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. And I kept hearing that to the point where I almost was like quite pessimistic about it I wasn't I still believed in it in my soul But I think enough people thought that not many people would watch it or had estimated that not many people would watch it

The event is something there was a bit of a kind of oh man. Yeah, I really believe in this Come on. I think it could do well. Yeah, but I think a lot of people thought it might disappear without a trace Just true not weird it is Netflix it's hard to tell I think I But I think a lot of people thought it might disappear without a trace. But not Netflix. Just how weird it is. Netflix, it's hard to tell. I think everyone had a different opinion. Once you got the scripts in? Yeah, I think, well once it was shot really. Oh really? I think yeah, we had a long edit and figuring it out and moving stuff around and making

drastic cuts. We really went through it in the edit in a lot of ways. And I think by the end of it, there was a whole myriad of opinions as to how it would go. I think some people thought, you know, it would be maybe no one at all would watch it. I didn't know anything about it. Yeah. And, you know, and I think, I don't know, I can't remember. I remember like, I was like, well, what is this? You know, and then when I watched, I was like, well, what is this? You know, and then when I watched,

I was like, you gotta watch it, because, you know, it personally resonated with me in a way. And it, you know, I thought it was mind blowing. And I, for all the reasons that you're talking about. So now after this is done, what do you end up, what do you think doing? What do you, sorry, I'm just, yeah, monitoring.

Yeah, is everything all right? I think so, yeah. Are we? Yeah, we're okay. Yeah, I can confidently say we're okay. So, once you exercise these parts of you, and you're the kind of act that you are, even if you've done a lot of these high-concept shows

that were driven by a vulnerability and a place of darkness in you. I mean, how do you feel in terms of your confidence to generate outside of yourself? Yeah, like, do, because I'm doing a new show now, which is generating outside of myself, fictional worlds, fictional world, because I'm doing a new show now which is generating outside of myself fictional worlds, fictional world, fictional characters. Really excited for the challenge really. It actually feels quite nice to have a break from this inward looking self-sabotage

and self-hating sort of habit of writing that I developed. It's definitely time to spin 180 and try a different thing. And so I'm doing a BBC HBO show now called Half Man, filming in a couple of weeks, actually. Oh, really? Yeah, absolutely. And how different is the character from you, if there is a single character?

Very different. Really? Yeah, yeah. So I'm taking a real gamble, but I believe in that. I believe risk is risk is a guy The guy like acting in it, I'm gonna act in it. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm not good I'm not we've got Jamie Bell playing the main character, which is pretty cool. Okay. Yeah. Yeah and but yeah, the characters departure for sure from from Donnie Dunn and

But I believe in kind of risk take I think the key to a good career was this risk risk and and and so I'm in HVL is doing this one HBO BBC yeah and I think um did Netflix not want to uh well this was actually commissioned before oh okay um Baby Reindeer or during Baby Reindeer yeah yeah and so I'm actually going back and honoring that commission right after Baby Reindeer finished. I love BBC, love Lindsay Salt. Yeah, yeah. And I love the project and I really wanted to be good. So I'm going to work real hard on it. Well, I have been working really hard on it. You're shooting now? Yeah, I'm going to shoot in a couple of weeks. And so yeah, there's a lot of writing and

a lot of casting and a lot of all these things going on. But I'm, you know, and then I'm flying out here every now and again to do the old sort of thing. But so it's a really busy time. Are you directing too? Not directing this one, no. We've got Alexandria Brodsky directing it, which I'm really excited about.

It's a one-off or it's a series? It's a one-off, yeah. Yeah, I quite like a limited, I like a limited series. You can kind of, it gives you freedom to go out and do it. But it is a series, but a limited series. It gives you freedom to go out and do other things. But it is a series, but a limited series. It is a series, yeah. What are you looking like, six episodes? Yeah, six episodes, yeah.

Yeah. So it's exciting and it's a new challenge and it's something I haven't done before. And yeah, and I get nervous stepping outside my comfort zone, but you got to do it, I think. And how's your personal life? Pretty non-existent. I've been such a workaholic for so many years, I almost don't have a personal life. Yeah, and how are your folks feeling about all the revelations and the process?

Taking it in their stride. They almost became kind of famous for a hot minute as well when the show came out. They were impressed on their doorstep and people desperate to interview my parents, and that kind of stuff How'd they take to that? They they they took to it

Really In their stride, they're really strong my parents. Yeah, but I think they were they thought it was all I think I don't think anyone any family can be prepared for the kind of we yeah onslaught that kind of came or are the kind of sudden be prepared for the kind of onslaught that kind of came or the kind of sudden interest in me and in them. And then the intrigue after and whatever happened after outside of the show. Yeah, exactly. And so, but they've been very strong and taking it in their stride. They're so supportive, you know?

Oh, good. Like they've never ever told me not to do what I'm doing in the sense of, I always think a lot of parents, you know, if somebody's like, I'm going to have to be a comedian actor. Yeah, yeah. It'd make them nervous, but they were very supportive. Oh, good. Well, it was certainly great talking to you. I'm glad we were able to do it. Yes, and you. Thanks so much for having me on. That was a real honor. I've listened to this podcast so much. So thank you. Oh, yeah. Great talking to you. Heavy Conversation, I recommend you watch Baby Reindeer. It is brutal, it is real, it could be very disturbing to some people, but the honesty

of it is a rare thing. Again, Richard is nominated for a SAG Award for his performance in Baby Reindeer. Hang out for a minute. In a darkly comedic look at motherhood and society's expectations, Academy Award-nominated Amy Adams stars as a passionate artist who puts her career on hold to stay home with her young son. But her maternal instinct takes a wild and surreal turn as she discovers the best, yet fiercest, part of herself.

Based on the acclaimed novel, Nightbitch is a thought-provoking and wickedly humorous film from Searchlight Pictures. Stream Nightbitch January 24th, only on Disney+. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money.

Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Folks, four years ago today, we were still hunkering down at home doing interviews over Zoom, but that allowed me to talk to Kate Winslet, who was also stuck at home over in England. Like I woke up in a lockdown frenzy, just aggravated. You? No, actually, well, actually, no, I was slightly agitated because I didn't sleep very well last night. Why, what do you think, what's happening?

No, nothing. I mean, no specific reason, although I did dream that I got vaccinated and that it didn't work. Oh, man. So maybe I was woken up out of that. Well, I dreamt that they had done, that they had put the vaccination, the needle had gone into my arm,

but only half of the vial had gone in. And they'd taken the needle out and the liquid was spraying all over, like me all over the floor. And then no one seemed to know how to cope with it, what to do. So they couldn't work out whether they should revaccinate me just half a vial,

whether they should just discount that one and just do the whole thing all over again. Oh my God. Should it was very, it was very, it was very anxious making it just because nobody knew what the protocol was. And that I found really scary. Well, that's a global problem. Well, precisely. I mean, I was dreaming about the world, the world clearly. That's Kate Winslet from episode 1192, and you can listen to that for free on whatever app you're using.

For every episode of WTF Add Free, sign up for WTF+. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by A-Cast. This is one take guitar, I didn't have time or the mental fortitude to sit here and work it out for an hour okay talk to you later thanks for being

there So So I'm gonna be a good boy. So I'm gonna be a good boy. I'm gonna be a good boy. Boomer lives, Monkey and La Fonda, cat angels everywhere.