WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1620 - Carrie Coon

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

As someone from a working class Ohio family, Carrie Coon didn’t think much about acting as a plausible career path. But her post-college work in regional theater led her to Steppenwolf in Chicago, which in turn led her to Broadway, and ultimately to a Hollywood career. Carrie and Marc talk about her first movie being being a baptism by David Fincher’s unique fire, meeting her husband Tracy Letts, learning that acting is not pretending, and spending six months in Thailand for the new season of The White Lotus.Click here to submit a question for an upcoming Ask Marc Anything bonus episode on The Full Maron. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey folks, I need your questions! I'm getting ready for another Ask Mark Anything bonus episode on the Full Marin, so fire away! Just click on the link in the episode description and send me a question. Then subscribe to the Full Marin, so you can get every Ask Mark Anything bonus episode. Alright, let's do the show! Puthoria. That feeling you get once you've finally pooped. Using the power of natural Sena from the Sena plant to promote bowel movement, Senocot laxative gently relieves occasional constipation,

typically in 6 to 12 hours. If it is hard to pass, try Senokot S. It uses natural Senna plus a stool softener to help you achieve pooforia. I don't like being away from home for too long, but sometimes it's necessary. Like if I have to shoot a TV show or I have tour dates overseas. But if you're going away for a long trip, you can host on Airbnb and have someone else take care of all the details for you. An Airbnb co-host can handle the listing, manage your reservations, send messages to your guests, and show up for any support your guests might need.

And you'll still make some cash while you're away. Find a co-host at airbnb.ca slash host. Fuck the game! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck Knicks? What the fuck Tuckians?

Yes, what the fuck Tuckians? I'm in what the fuck Kentucky. What the fuck Tucky? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck?

What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck Knicks? What the fuck Tuckians? Yes, what the fuck Tuckians? I'm in what the fuck Kentucky. What the fuck Tucky? What I'm here. I'm taping this in your state. How's it going? I, well that's, I'll just ask that to the world. How are all UWTF people doing? How is it going out there? Is it a day-to-day slog through fear and hopelessness and panic and food and more food and some movies and some doom

scrolling and some fear and some panic and some hopelessness and oh hey look come here buddy come here that's it pet the dog hey hey hey pet the cat fear hopelessness panic food more food how about an errand yeah let's go pick up the thing at the place all right great oh I love it panic fear food how about another movie? Okay, what's going on? I'm just trying to recap the days. I have been out on the road, as you can hear,

I'm not in the garage. I'm in a high-ceilinged hotel room that it looks like it's literally built to have echo and bounce, so enjoy that. I am in right now, I am recording in Lexington, Kentucky before my show yesterday. I will say this trip has been, it's been interesting and odd to me to travel in the South in this new world that we are entering, being dragged into. Maybe I should say that. Before I start rambling, I'd like to say that I have Carrie Coon on the show.

She's been on the series like The Leftovers, The Gilded Age, Fargo. She's in movies like Gone Girl, The Nest, and his three daughters. You can see her now on the new season of White Lotus. She's married to Tracy Letts, the brilliant actor and playwright, who for some WTF trivia, out of all the guests that I've had on this show, over the years,

people always ask me, do you hang out with any of them after, you know, not comics, not guys I already know, but have I made friends with anybody who has been on the show? And yes, Tracy Letts is my friend and I can say that with confidence. And I am today interviewing his brilliant Wife who is a great actress. So there you go. It's all set up. I want to sneak this into before I start to babbling aimlessly I Will be at Largo

Tomorrow night in Los Angeles I just want to make sure that that's out there because I feel like I've not worn out my welcome in LA, but I feel like everybody who wants to see me has seen me here or in LA. And that they assume that, you know, like, well, is he going to do the same stuff? I'm not always, I rarely do the same set,

but I do want to put that out there. Largo at the Coronet tomorrow night in Los Angeles, that's Tuesday, February, February 25th. Then I got another Red State run. I'll be in Oklahoma City at the Tower Theater on Thursday, March 6th. Dallas, I'm at the Majestic Theater Friday, March 7th. I'll be in Houston at the White Oak Music Hall on Saturday March 8th. San Antonio at the Empire Theater on Sunday March 9th. Yeah San Antonio, look I don't know how many of you listen or give a shit but you know that that shows looking a little lighter

than I'd like. I don't want it to be a strange, isolated experience for the diehards that come. So I'm not begging, I'm just trying to get it out there. Maybe you didn't hear me say it, but San Antonio, all right, you listening? Empire Theater, Sunday, March 9th, and then I'm going to South by Southwest to let everybody watch a fairly detailed

and thorough documentary about me and some of the subtexts are my inability to pull my pants up you know look for that if you're seeing the documentary chart the the sort of drooping of Mark's pants I don't know why I think no one notices that I mean I feel like I pull them up enough and I feel more comfortable when they Then when they're a little low, but I'm not looking for them to

Hang out on you know off of my ass You know just hang like I just you know, I just I Like the doc, you know, it's hard to watch myself, but Yeah, maybe there there's a little Easter egg in there for you. Is that what you call them? At some point, keep, you know, keep an eye out because you will towards the end of the film, see my naked ass because I'm bending over to put something in the oven. I, you know, just look out for it. So that's a big, that's a, it's a big payoff after an hour of just, you know, just look out for it. That's a big, that's a, it's a big payoff after an hour of just, you know, drooping

pants to get, you know, to finally get the punch line. I will be in Durham, North Carolina at the Carolina theater of Durham on Friday, March 21st. I'll be in Charlotte, North Carolina at the Knight theater on Saturday, March 22nd and Charleston, South Carolina. I'm at the Charleston music Hall on Sunday, March 23rd. Little Mark Maron trivia. The last time I was in Charleston,

and that show could use some people too, but I'm not expecting massive Maron crowds in thoroughly red places. But the last time I did Charleston, some guy brought a pre psychotic Nancy Mase to the show. She was always Republican, but there was a point there where she was relatively reasonable and now she's just a fucking clown, but someone brought her to my show.

She was there on a date with a guy who was a fan of mine. And after the show, I remember meeting her and she was slightly panicked. She said, I don't know what I'm doing here. I don't know what I'm doing at this show. I don't know what I'm doing here. And just frenetic, a little bit frenetic I I'm glad that she got to see me and that I delivered the goods into that jumbled attention-seeking

morally bankrupt brain of hers I'm coming to Illinois Michigan Toronto Vermont New Hampshire and New York City for my special taping. So you can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for any of my dates and links to tickets. So that's that. That's where we're at. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. And here's something, there's no getting around. Nothing lasts forever, people. But in the case of Squarespace, that's a good thing. Because Squarespace has evolved into the best version of Squarespace there's ever been

Squarespace has always been the best platform to create your online presence but now Squarespace is even better thanks to cutting-edge AI technology that makes building your site even easier with better results. Design intelligence from Squarespace helps you design a more personalized website tailored to your unique needs. There are also innovations when it comes to getting you paid. Squarespace payments is the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. You can also connect major social and multimedia accounts to your website in a few clicks as icons, direct links, or embedded feeds. Go to squarespace.com slash WTF for a free trial.

And when you're ready to launch, use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash WTF offer code WTF. So I've been trying to do some reading out here on the road and I've been reading Sidney Lumet's book about directing movies, which has been helpful. I've really kind of taken my time doing that homework because hopefully I will be directing a film towards the beginning of next year and I've been reading How Fascism Works, The Politics of Us and Them by Jason Stanley which you know I was only about halfway through and then I realized like I don't know

if I need to finish it because I can I can just pick up where the book left off with my newsfeed. Yes, kind of a joke but kind of not right? Kinda right? Kind of a joke, but kind of not right kind of right. I'm not enjoying this space for recording But this is what it's going to be So yeah, I've been out here. I've been in the south. I you know, I've toured the south many times before I've been down here a lot. I always have I always end up being paranoid and

Wondering about how I'll be received or or what the people are like down here and Generally in the past I've come away thinking like well those crowds were great and everybody seemed real nice And I had a nice time to see and everybody and you know had no problems This time whether it's my mind or reality not as comfortable not as comfortable though. The crowds have been great reality not as comfortable not as comfortable though the crowds have been great truly great I mean Asheville at the Orange Peel was Spectacular loved the people of Asheville saw my buddy Stan and Laurie They got a house over there and I took a ride down where the floods were and kind of addressed You know the fires and talked about natural disasters with the audience

But the place was packed and it's always, it's still, it's a sweet town, and it seems to be bouncing back, and my people came out because they are there. There, it is a kind of blue dot, as they call them. I'm a little bit concerned with the blue dots being erased somehow, but then again, I'm concerned about all of us

being erased somehow, at least in our ability to speak and organize publicly. And then after Asheville, Ali Makovsky and I, my opener, drove to Nashville. That was quite a ride, quite a ride. I'd never taken that ride through the Blue Mountains, through Appalachia. Is that how you say it? I used to say Appalachia, but I think it's Appalachia. Is that how you say it? I used to say Appalachia, but I think it's Appalachia and it's beautiful in a very kind of rugged way, but the nature is beautiful. The small towns are a little beat up, but picturesque and you can make

assumptions about the history there or you can make assumptions about whatever's happening now, but I do know one thing that I've experienced traveling through the South this time is that it, it is very rural in most places and very spread out and you know, it's not congested in any way. The cities, the smaller cities certainly aren't, they're a little bit congested, but they're small and everything is very spread out you know one or two houses sometimes for hundreds of acres and I don't you know I know that this is whatever this part of America is however you want to refer to it a flyover state or or or the south or whatever or rural America and I understand that's what a lot of the

country looks like but I do not guess I understand that's what a lot of the country looks like but I do not guess I understand you know why they're so worked up about the foundations of democracy functioning they live it seems fairly isolated lives and I think that you know they just fill their brains with garbage and as I move through this tour I've been down here five days in the south and moving through the south it's felt like a month and it's it's it's weighs heavy on me that you know that I like living in a large city and I know that on some levels to the people that live in these other places where the enemy we live in a bubble

But our our bubble may be a very large bubble in terms of the scope and size of the city But it is you know a functioning Democratic bubble in a lot of ways because the city I live in is very well integrated and there's all kinds of people there thousands of them and I find that comforting and human and tolerant and all the things that seems to be on the menu for you know getting rid of and it's really not about you know an arrogance or an elitism or anything else it's just I like being around a lot of different kinds of people who have different paths, different backgrounds, different ethnicities,

different approaches to life and food and everything else. It just seems to be a celebration of humanity. We're out here. I don't know. It's a, it's pretty a one dimensional in a lot of ways. And I just think a lot of the fury is a stoked by misinformation that they get from the thing that they hold in their hand or else from the thing that they, they watch. I don't know, but it's weighing heavy on me. This trip moving through these areas,

a lot of people get stressed out when it comes to finding a place to live, heavy on me this trip moving through these areas. A lot of people get stressed out when it comes to finding a place to live, but the Redfin app now makes it not only easy, but fun to just check out all the dream homes in your area. Use the Redfin app to find homes for sale or places to rent. And if you find a place you love, Redfin makes it easy to see it in person,

just schedule a tour right from the app. Plus, if you're looking to sell, Redfin agents know how to get the best price possible for your home. That's because they close twice as many deals as other agents. And with a listing fee as low as 1%, Redfin's fees are half of what others often charge, which means you'll have more money to put towards your next home. So whether you're looking to buy, rent or sell, Redfin's got you covered. Download the Redfin app to get started. All right. Good. Oh, another high

point of the trip. Another high point of the trip. I had done a tour with Ali before and we had driven by a Buc-ee's, uh, I think somewhere on the coast of California and she goes, you have you been to Buc-ee's? And I'm like, I have not been to Buc-ee's and she goes, you got to go to Buc-ee's, but we'd already passed it. And I'm like, all right, someday I'll go to Buc-ee's. And we were in, I guess we were driving from maybe Asheville to Nashville and there

was a sign for a Buc-ee's and she said we got to go and I'm like it's a truck stop right she goes no it's its own thing it is a truck stop but it is it's like the Walmart of truck stops I have never seen anything like it and I'm I'm happy I went to Bucky's because it's like going to the America that you don't get when you live on the coast or in a city. It is something. Bucky's the the the logo is a beaver. It's a little beaver, a cute little beaver guy and this this truck stop is huge all right they have all the things a truck stop has but much more I can't even describe it I stood before the wall of jerky there's an entire wall

of packaged jerky and I'm talking a wall a wall of jerky which would be a good name for an album or perhaps a band so there's a wall of jerky and then they have sort of a butcher shop set up with some meats but mostly jerky in the case all kinds of jerky and then there's a food station in the middle where they make brisket sandwiches egg sandwiches like and people love the brisket huge food court within The Buc-E's okay and across from the wall of jerky. There's the faith-based boutique I guess you would call it with you know a lot of kind of Christian oriented fun t-shirts and then they have the Buc-ee's t-shirts and

then they have the coffee station and then they have you know other clothing and then they have you know the cigarette counter and it is if if you wanted to shrink a Walmart a little bit and make it everything that a truck stop has but more, that's Buc-ee's. And you do get a sense, again, back in the day, if I would have gone to the South, I would have thought, well, look at all these, people are just traveling, they're just nice people. But it's very hard to separate my sense

of why this country is heading the direction it's headed from the people standing with me before the jerky wall. But again, I don't want to be judgmental or divisive, but I think it's too late. I think we are divided and heavily judging each other and the victors are going to eliminate our ability to judge publicly. Just my, it's just, I'm just talking, just talking, you know? That's all, just chatting. So look, Carrie Coon is my guest,

and it was exciting to have the conversation with her that I had. She's on season three of White Lotus, with new episodes airing Sunday nights on HBO. to have the conversation with her that I had. She's on season three of White Lotus with new episodes airing Sunday nights on HBO. You can stream it on Max. And this is me talking to Carrie Coon. Can indigenous ways of knowing help kids cope with online bullying? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can. Dr. Johanna Sam and her team are researching

how both indigenous and non-indigenous youth cope with cyber aggression, working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca slash forward happens here.

["Flu A Theme"] My voice, I've had this fucking flu A, man. This is three weeks. What is it? My voice is destroyed. What am I gonna get? You're gonna get this sexy, this sick sexy version of me. What was it?

A flu voice, a flu A? I just, they call it influenza A. It's what all the kids at school had. So what my kids got it, I got it, Tracy got it. We all got it. My voice hasn't come back. Really? No.

That's the thing about kids. And I'm doing press. Oh God, you're just sick all the time. Sick all the time. Sounds great. And they recover, thank you. They recover so fast. But it's rewarding, right?

Actually, yeah, I've become a real pro-natalist person. I don't even have children. But I also believe now maybe you shouldn't because we're all gonna die. But that's practical. But I also believe it doesn't matter where they go to school or anything. It doesn't?

No, because it's the fucking, like, the world we grew up and doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. So we don't have a paradigm for my children's lives. Yeah, but you have one at home, no? What do you mean? Like an idea of how we'd like to raise them? Sure.

Yeah, I'm like, you know, building a Mormon pantry and sure, yeah, treat people how you wish to be treated and also get ready. You're gonna have to distill water with a tarp and a hole. Yeah, so you give them that? And like shoot people to protect your food, not yet, no one's protecting them from that right now. So wait, wait, what? Someday they're gonna look at me and say,

and what were you doing when the world was on fire? And I'm gonna say, insulating our house and converting to heat pumps. Sure, and thinking about opening a boutique of some kind. Oh God. That's not you. No, God, no. But so the prepper mentality happens

when they're in their teens, probably? Probably. Yeah, you're gonna buy the gunspper mentality happens when they're teens probably? Probably. Yeah, you're gonna buy the guns. I mean, there's probably some camp I can send them to soon. That will start to teach them how to make a fire, skin a squirrel or something. Unfortunately, it might come with an ideology

you're not happy with. I mean, look, it's a fine line these days. Is it? Yeah, the far right and the far left are closer than ever. Yeah, it's come full circle. It has. People always say that, but I think there is still some distinction. No, no, I agree.

I agree. I don't, you know, there aren't just like entire groups of people I want to put on a train sent to a camp. Well maybe I'm slowly moving that way too. Which people would they be? I'm not going to say that, but some of my people. No, honestly though, I do think there's no paradigm. I think the world our kids will live in is horrendous.

I mean, if you're paying any attention to climate scientists, which you know, you know what we're in for, it's devastating. Yeah, I know, I just, you know, You can't think about it all the time. Well, there's always this hope that I'd get out under the wire, but I don't have kids, so you know, no.

You can take the pill, Tracy's taking the pill. He's like, I'm cyanide pill, I'm out. I'm not fighting. Oh, really? Yeah, he's not gonna fight, he's like, I'm too old for this. So you got cyanide online? Not yet, but you knowide pill, I'm out. I'm not fighting. Yeah, he's not going to fight. He's like, I'm too old for this. Not yet, but we're not there yet. I'm just, it's all like, you know, and on a little graph paper plans.

Yeah, I don't understand completely the sort of idea of prepping for the end so you can live after it. What's that like? How's that quality of life? Well, here's the thing, Marc, when you have kids, you have to consider how to keep your children alive. Because that's your fundamental responsibility. And that's something you're- And I'm gonna have to do that by myself

because he's gonna take the pill and just like, calm down. I think you could talk him out of it. I don't think so. Really, he's pretty committed. He's pretty committed? Yeah, I mean, he's had a very full life, Mark, you know. He really has, hasn't he?

He's been very successful. It's annoying that he's younger than me. It's all ultimately sort of empty and meaningless, though, is the thing. Is it? Yeah, it doesn't matter. I mean, you'd like to think it matters for a little while. Sure, it's fun for a little while.

If you can get six months, no, but six months of recognition and you think you've changed things. Yeah, you're in Hollywood, it doesn't matter. I mean, do you like to think it matters for a little while? If you can get it six months. Sure, it's fun for a little while. No, but six months of recognition and you think you're changing. Yeah, you're in Hollywood, that's about right. You move the sort of artistic ball forward a bit. Yeah, I guess. I guess you get the power of no. Like you get to say no to things.

That's the real, isn't that like the glorious power? I mean, outside of acting, when you write a play, you'd like to think that has a place in the world that will outlive you. I do believe that my husband, he still is, he still hopelessly believes in the power of art. He believes in it more than I do. Well, I mean, I think that real artists have to believe that.

I get cynical about it because I'm like, yeah, so what song's going to get us out of this? Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, totally. Which play that no one goes to is gonna change the tide of fascism. Well, that's what Tracy said. I mean, the last play he wrote was about fascism.

He's like, literally nobody came. And when it was still running, the New York Times didn't even write about it. Yeah, so that's gonna work. That's gonna hold the line. He's like, so if nobody saw my fascism play, I guess I'm done. Yeah, if no one sees a fascism play, does it happen?

Yeah, if a fascism plays, it doesn't work. Which play was that? The Minutes, did you not see The Minutes? I don't think I did see The Minutes. Oh, Mark, it's so good. It's hard for me to see theater out here. I did go see Linda Viz. It's hard for me to see theater in New York.

Yes, yeah, I know you saw it out here. That was great. Yeah, I know, it's such a, I mean, it's a Steely Dan, he's a character in a Steely Dan song. Well, him and I, we split paths on that, on the Steely Dan. Sure, sure, right, right, I know it's one of your fundamental disagreements

in your friendship. No, I understand Steely Dan. I don't freak out over them. Nor do I. But he's younger than me and we're not quite boomers yet. He shouldn't adapt all that. I know, we're the same. We're kind of opposite ends of the same generation.

So you think about this end of the world thing all the time? Yes. And what are you trying to really do? Have you reconciled it in a real way? No, no, no. I think, you know, isn't sort of the responsibility of any human being to prepare yourself for death. Yeah.

So I feel like I think about death all the time in order to prepare myself for the inevitability of the dissolution of everything around us. Well, let me ask you a question. So I can be at peace with it. Well, that, I mean, be at peace with your own death, but then be at peace with the planetary death or the death in starving in a camp somewhere. Right, exactly. Because you're an actress.

Yes, yeah, I'll be on the train, for sure. Absolutely. Is it gonna be trains? Not anymore. I guess maybe. Our infrastructure's really broken down. We don't really have the infrastructure for the trains. But I mean, in terms of like really dealing with

that death thing, I mean, as an actor person, because I feel like I can intellectually wrap my brain around it, but to really feel the terror of it, that's a whole different story. Like I somehow, one night in bed, I got myself into a situation where I was pretty sure I had cancer.

And I felt the terror of it. And it made me realize, like, I'm not prepared for this at all. Yeah, I think that's real. Tracy went through a couple of health scares like that. But for him, it was like, oh, my children are so young. Now. Right?

Now that was him. Now for him, it's about his kids. Well, they both happened when he was, when he had the kids. Yeah, after he had children, yeah. Really? So he was really, you know, he's had other brushes with death, but yeah. But yeah, I mean, now it's like,

that's a very different thing is to think about what you do to sustain your children in the event of your death, or if you're leaving your children too soon. But what about some spiritual foundation, anything? That's, we really struggle with that because I'm a recovering Catholic. And Tracy's- Full-on Catholic?

Like you had it hard? I mean, I was like, no, I mean, my dad almost became a Catholic priest. He went to Borromeo Seminary in Cleveland. He and my mom went out to dinner and got engaged because they'd been making out since fourth grade. And he always took us to church and he got us confirmed and we were baptized. But my mom didn't go to church. Swinging orbs, outfits.

Yeah, we did all this stuff in Ohio, as committed as they would be in Ohio. Ohio Catholics, yeah. And his family's very Catholic, his side of the family. My mom's mom was a scientist, she was a science teacher. She didn't let any of the chaplains in her room when she was dying. She was like, get the fuck out of here.

Really? Yeah, no, she was not interested. She wanted to donate her body to science. So no hell that you believed? I mean, no, absolutely. All I wanted, Marc, was the statue of. She wanted to donate her body to science. So no hell that you believed? I mean, no, absolutely. All I wanted, Marc, was the statue of Mary to talk to me. I just wanted to be special. I was a middle child.

Nobody was paying any attention. And I wanted, you know, I just wanted to like, I feel like all the women teaching catechism talked about was like Mary appearing in Medjugorje. Yeah, yeah, sure. Piece of toast. I was like, is that really what it's about? Or how girls shouldn't play sports

because it would damage our reproductive organs, which that was not, that didn't fly with me. Yeah, that was really a toast. I was like, is that really what it's about? Or how girls shouldn't play sports because it would damage our reproductive organs, which that was not, that didn't fly with me. Yeah, that was really a thing they were teaching me. And I was like, I like sports. I mean, I looked like a boy till I was 17 and a half. Did you have a health? Did you believe it? Yeah, sure.

It's very romantic. Yeah, fun. I mean, are you kidding me? Like the power of guilt and shame in my life up until I was probably 30 was so- Up until this morning. It ruined everything. It's coming back to later today, I'm sure.

Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. But the guilt and shame religious, as opposed to just free floating, is probably more specific. I mean, guilt and shame is also like a parenting strategy that people relied on for decades, I think. That's how you imparted the moral, right?

Your moral is all based on guilt and shame. Terrify them. Yeah, yeah. Hate yourself for doing this. Yeah, yeah, self-loathing. And then shame. Yeah, yeah. You hate yourself for doing this. Yeah, yeah, self-loathing. And then tell Jesus to forgive you. And also people-pleasing. Just don't make waves, ladies.

Yeah. You know, that was a real thing. Yeah, but that- It's still a real thing. It didn't stick with you. No, you know, because I did some work on myself and I met somebody who I fundamentally realized could like handle anything I had,

which I never believed, I didn't trust anyone before that. I don't either. No, that's a real thing, Mark. You can work on it. Yeah, but okay, so with the work you did, what was it that you couldn't trust them with? Was it real or was it just some weird childlike thing that the fear wasn't practical anymore?

Well, it's real insofar as it's impacting your life. I mean, I think when you're growing up in the Midwest, and my parents- Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Ohio. In Ohio. There were five kids in my family. Which town? It's called Copley, it's outside of Akron.

So it's like Akron's a very urban area, but we were in a very rural area. They'd been in my family since the 1800s. But it's pretty, right? It's beautiful, I loved growing up in that place. Since the 1800s. Yeah, my dad's family lived on that beautiful. I loved growing up in that place. Since the 1800s? Yeah, my dad's family lived on that property. Was it a farm?

Yeah, it was a farm. Where'd they come from, Scandinavia? Oh, no. I mean, my dad's family's mostly, like my grandma was French. Oh, really? And they're all like European mutts. And my mom's side was mostly Hungarian. Wasn't part of the Midwest, Sweden invasion?

No, no. I don't have much of that, I don't think. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think I'm more Neanderthal than Swede. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, and what, so what, how does that impact you? Well, it's just, you know, there- Midwest.

I mean, my parents were raised by people who grew up in the Depression, and they worked. My parents worked full-time. Like what they did? My mom was an emergency room nurse. Oh my God. My dad ran the family auto parts store because he didn't become a priest,

so then he had to find a vocation. What is it about people who wanna become priests? What was his trauma? I think it's very romantic. Is it? Romantic to be- Yeah, well, here's the other thing. My dad was really smart and he wanted to get

a good education in the seminary. Seminary had that, yeah. So he got classically educated in life and free. But you gotta forego all the passions. Yeah, I mean, it's very, but's just, but like it's such theater. Like church is theater. And now my dad has found his way back to the theater. He's found like this troop of guys at his bar

and they just did Harvey. And now he's like helping them write a play. It's very, I'm so proud. I love it. I haven't actually seen it yet. I heard he did a wicked good accent last production. I don't know. I don't, nobody could really identify what it was, but I gotta ask him about that.

That's the best way to do an accent. I think so. He's doing one, but I don't know what it is. A little bit vague. You kinda can't place it. I specialize in those. Everybody thinks I'm not American, or I'm deaf. They think I'm German or deaf.

They think I talk funny. But that's interesting. So you recognized it as theatrics early on? Sure. Oh yeah, I wanted it. I wanted to be part of it. I loved the church. I loved singing. I loved punishing myself.

How many siblings do you have? Four. I'm the dead middle of five. So that's pretty Catholic. Yeah. Yeah, and my parents even adopted one. Really? Super intense, yeah.

And how's everyone doing? I mean, they're Americans in the Midwest. It's not great. It's really hard. It's hard to make a living. It's hard to pay your bills. My siblings have sort of various degrees. They're like, you know, we sort of are kind of representative of a certain kind of American family,

right, that's been here for many generations. You know, some of us went to college and some of us didn't. You know, one of them's an immigrant. And I mean, we just have, we kind of represent all things. So like, you know, I've got a chef, I have a general manager, I have somebody who didn't go to college,

who's kind of works in a trucking company. My sister who, you know, just kind of, is I think mentally ill and struggles in the world, vitally, and you know, is not from, is El Salvadoran, and you know, has the adopted child, like the always gonna feel like she was abandoned on some level. Oh, yeah.

It's really an intense psychology to be adopted. Yeah, my brother has three adopted kids. Yeah, it's really, and back then, when my sister was adopted from El Salvador, which was in the middle of a civil war, they were just like, good luck, Christians. There was no trauma counseling. There was no sense of telling my parents,

like, hey, get ready. There could be some real deep psychological shit going on. They weren't, and they come from a generation that like, it's all stoicism. Nobody was going to therapy. I was the first person in my family to go to therapy. Really? Absolutely. And is there a full political spectrum amongst the siblings? No, my family's very classically liberal because my dad, again, he was educated.

Liberal Catholic. That's good. Yeah, he was like, he was a humanist. My dad understands that there are other religions, that God, he believes in God, but he believes that God will appeal to different people in different ways, which I think is a really respectful way to think about it. And my mom's kind of like, I treat everybody the same. If that's wrong, I guess I am going to hell. Fuck off. But the emergency room nurse, that's intense. It is intense.

So it's wife and death every day. Yeah, it is. And she would just like smoke cigarettes at the kitchen table and look at the obituaries, see who died, you know. But like that relationship, I talked to Noah Wiley about that because he's got that new show on, The Pit. Just, you know, your understanding and intimacy with mortality and the fragility of the human body, it's just like day in and day out.

It's in your face, absolutely. And I think my, and like none of those nurses go to the doctor and they like all smoke. I mean, they're so aware of just how tenuous it all is. And I think my mom is, you know, my mom is not a person of faith. And I would say that she's probably on the spectrum, like very afraid of death. Whereas my dad feels genuinely prepared and at peace with it. Ready to go. Yeah, which his parents also were.

They were practicing catheters. They're like, oh, finally. Yeah. Just let me go. It's gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah. And they were in their nineties. I mean, they're like, oh, finally, just let me go. It's gonna happen, yeah. Yeah, and they were in their 90s. I mean, they also lived good long lives. What's interesting about that emergency room nurse

or the smoking or anything else is that it's gotta be some kind of addiction almost. They're adrenaline junkies. Yeah, totally. I mean, they're so ready for this dopamine world we're living in, they're always getting kids. Yeah, they're prepared. Yeah.

Yeah, they're ready to go. Like they got a bag to pack to help. Yeah, right. And she was always, she was a really good nurse. I mean, she was really to go. Like, they got a bag to pack to help. Yeah, right. And she was always, she was a really good nurse. I mean, she was really good at her job. But sometimes I think that also got the best of her. You know, like, her energy was kind of put into that. Yeah, she worked at night.

And five kids. And she slept during the day. And, you know, when Marianne Jean-Baptiste wakes up in the new Mike Lee movie, you know, how she like wakes up and throws her pillows. That was the way my mom always woke up. It was terrifying. That movie was gnarly. Yeah, it's hard to watch,

but he really does capture a certain kind of person who you're just like, oh no, what happened to you? I talked to him. He's a beautiful man, that guy. Yeah, well, he makes beautiful films. Unbelievable. We don't even have somebody who's treating the working class like that in this country.

He's a singular guy. He really, I bet. I would love to meet him. Like a real, like a humanist and a collaborator and you know, all that stuff, it takes weeks to improvise to find where the scenes are. Fascinating process. I would love to be involved in a process like that.

I think it's so interesting. You should do a Mike Lee movie. Yeah, well, yeah, you're right, let me call him. That's not really how this works, Mark. You know that's not how this works. Well, sometimes it is. Still fighting for everything. Are you?

Yeah, of course. I kind of did a small crash course in some of the stuff you did, and I'm a little traumatized, because I watched- You know, what did you watch, The Leftovers? No, I watched The Nest. Oh, yeah, Sean Durkin.

And then I watched Gone Girl. Uh-huh, yep, first movie. But The Nest, I'd never seen that before, but I saw that guy's other movie. Yeah, you liked Martha, Marcy Mae Marlene. I listened to your interview with Lizzie, because of course, you know, she's my pal. She's the best.

And that movie's great. I mean, Sean's a great filmmaker, and she's magnificent. What is it about that? Because I watched another indie movie the other night because my friend's in it, and there's a real difference between filmmakers who are just honoring a script

in a very sort of basic way to execute the script, and then filmmakers who have like a real full vision. Like it happens a lot with comedies, independent comedies. I don't even know why people do them. Because I mean, because it's so like, if you look at a script and it's, oh, this is a funny scene, to make it funny on camera for everybody,

you gotta really have some magic or else it's just gonna be like, nah, okay. Yeah, I mean, comedy's smart. But that guy, the guy who did The Nest, he seems to have a real understanding. I mean, his scripts are all really personal, I feel like. He's the one who's deciding what story he wants to tell. And then when he's on set, he's like,

you know, he's like a great athlete. You know, the really good directors, like that's where they're most at home is when they're on set and doing that work. And he and our DP, Mathias Erdely, who's an amazing DP, they didn't, I swear to you, they communicated telepathically. I've never seen anything like it.

They would just kind of walk around in a circle, putting their, you know, stroking their chins, and then they would just nod, and then we would do the shot, and they never said a word. And then pretty soon you found yourself also being like, Sean would say, Carrie, and you'd say, uh-huh, yes. And you knew exactly, it was so strange. I've never experienced anything like it before,

but I loved it and I loved Jude and I loved those kids. I just, we just had a great time. But it's like, I can't, it's weird. Nobody saw it. Really? No, they should see it. Not during the pandemic. I know, it's a really good movie.

It's an adult movie. Totally adult movie and it's surprising in a way that's not overwrought. Yeah, thanks. Like, in the sense of, like, how that character of him reveals itself. Yeah. And that one scene with the mother, you're like,

oh, this monster. Yeah, that's such a great scene. I know, right? Yeah. And he's like, I mean, Jude would say, I think, it's like, there's so much of his father in it, too. It was very personal for Jude. And it's a completely real sort of depiction

of a type of guy and a type of woman and the kids. And Gone Girl, that was great. But I mean, I know you've done a lot of other stuff, but this is what's in my head. And I watched all the episodes of White Lotus they sent me. Oh, did they give you one through six? One through four. They gave you one through four.

Oh, so you haven't gotten to like when the ladies go crazy yet, have you? I can feel it coming. There's a lot of setup. Yeah, of course, of course. It's all gonna. And you were in Thailand? Yes, for six months, man. Tracy was taking care of the kids for six months.

Is that how you got it worked out? You don't work? Well, yeah, there's a bit more taking turns now. Yeah? Yeah, we just don't wanna like, there's a version of life where you take your kids all over the world and just like plunge them wherever you are. I know, talk to actors that do that.

Yeah, and I kind of always thought we might be those people. When my son, you know, my son all the way up until the pandemic, when he was two, he'd been all over with us all around the world and on sets, and then the pandemic hit, and then we found out maybe he's like not that kind of kid. And they kind of tell you.

Disruptive? Yeah, like he really likes his routine, he loves school, he loves his school, and we just don't feel good taking him out. I don't know that any kind of kid is necessarily like that. That's where the whole sort of selfishness of the parent comes in. Yeah, that's true.

It's like your family culture, isn't it? Well, what's the bargain? Like, do they miss having a parent for six months? Or do you drag them wherever you are to, you know, watch movies in a strange apartment? It's pretty tricky. Yeah, exactly. It's weird.

I mean, I didn't, I was gonna bring them to LA because Tracy's in New Zealand. I was like, are you crazy? How long is he in New Zealand for? For like three and a half weeks. Oh, exactly. It's weird. I mean, I was gonna bring them to LA because Tracy's in New Zealand, and I was like, are you crazy? How long is he in New Zealand for? Like three and a half weeks. Not six months. It's not the same as six months. But yeah, you really have to weigh all those questions.

It's hard to balance two careers. Yeah, I think I have three, but I have no kids. But the level of worry I have about my cats is unnatural. Yes, right? Well, animal, it's very pure, you know, the animal thing. I guess that's what it is. I like being away from my kids. I mean, I say that with love.

As a woman, it is very powerful to recover your autonomy, period. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think most moms, in the way we're parenting now, get to do that. So as a cat mother, you're, you know, of course you're obsessed. It's ridiculous in a way.

Yeah, and it's such a pure kind of grief, too. It's horrible. having animals is horrible. I had them growing up and I just don't want them ever again. Really, because- That's death, that's where you learn about death. Well, it's where you learn about death. When you have 21 dogs since you're six. And you have to do it.

Yeah, you have to bury them in the backyard and hope you don't hit one. You have to get them done. Yeah, you do. Yeah, I know, we had one, my grandma and I ended up putting it down, and the vet was like, oh, just so you know, that was a flesh wound.

She probably would have survived. And we're like, well, thanks for telling us. Shut up. We're like, great, now we can go tell everybody we killed the dog. Oh, it's the worst. It's the worst. I used to avoid it because we grew up with dogs

and my mother was more in the school of like, drop them off and do it. But the last couple I went in and like, was there. It's awful, but. You should be there though. It feels like the right thing to do. Yeah, but it's heavy, man. It's so heavy. It's awful.

The sort of thing you gotta do with your head. It's like, well, you know, you gave him a good life and he wouldn't have survived out in the wild and you know, whatever, and you're doing the right thing. Because when you're in that zone of like, maintaining an animal's life, when it's ridiculous. Yeah, we never got that far because we lived in the country. But yeah, I've seen it. I was giving them IVs.

Yeah, I mean, I've seen people pay ostentatious amounts of money to keep their animals alive. You got to let them go. You do, I think. I think you do. Yeah. That's my personal philosophy. Let them go. So wait, what did you do when you were a kid?

Was there an active farm? I mean, it was not an active farm. It was like an old farm. We had like apples and blueberries. We didn't have animals. There were animals across the street. There was a guy with chickens who probably shot six of my dogs, I think.

They were dying all, we used to do this thing at Christmas where we would recite all the names of the dogs and how they died at Christmas. Cause it would make my grandma laugh so hard. She'd just fall off her chair laughing. We'd be like, Abby, Maggie, you kind of, you know, this one was shot, this one was poisoned, this one, can I buy a car and then shot?

You know, we would just go through the whole litany of dogs, dogs. Well, there is something about country people's relationship to animals. Yeah, it's more visceral. I mean, your relationship to death and animals and land. We've gotten so far from death. It's probably good to have your hands in the dirt that way.

I think so. I don't know. My dad's in the throes of the dementia thing. Oh dear, that's a hard one. And I detached from it. His wife's still taking care of him. But I don't know if I'm feeling, I think after somebody you love dies

or you see enough of it, that you realize like, well, this is inevitable. And grief and loss is inevitable on some level. And that's just part of the thing. Everything you love will die and pass away. Yeah, if you don't go first. Right, which that happens too. You hope for the natural order of things.

It doesn't always go that way, of course. But when you're growing up, I mean, when do you start doing the acting business? Oh, you know, I saw, my mom hates this story, but I saw a play when I was 10 at the Akron Civic Theater, which is one of those atmospheric theaters where they have like the stars on the ceiling. It was so beautiful.

And there were 10 year old, it was called Babes in Toyland. How old were you? There were kids my age. I was probably like 10. And I was like, whoa, those people are my age and they're up there. Yeah. How did they get to be up there? Yeah. And I came home and I knew my grandfather,

after he fought in the Battle of the Bulge in World War II and he made it out. Really? Yeah, really intense. He just passed away last year. Did he talk about it? Not until his 80s. You know, when the Leopoldville surfaced,

there was a, the sinking of a submarine that had been covered up, I guess, for decades. Yeah. His battalion was on the Leopoldville being transferred somewhere and he wasn't on it because they put him on a Jeep to drive something somewhere. So he had this sense of like having shirked death

in that circumstance. Survivors' guilt. Yeah, a little bit. And that's when he started talking about it. But he didn't like to be with other veterans. He didn't like talking about it. He didn't want people to know. It seems like that generation doesn't.

No, it's so traumatic. Can you imagine? No. The growing up you had to do? that generation doesn't. No. It's so traumatic. Can you imagine? No. The growing up you had to do? I can't imagine. No, I can't either. I mean, he would talk about seeing his commanders get blown to smithereens. And he was tracking through the snow?

You know, he was in Arles in France. I don't know what. I mean, it was just horrifying. But that wasn't the one from Save a Private Ryan. No, that was like D-Day. No, but it was a terrifying battle. The Battle of the Bulge I thought was in the snow where they were pushing back the Germans who were off.

It was towards the end of the war, right? Yeah, it was. He didn't talk about it. The fact that he actually made it. Yeah, none of them did. You know, they didn't talk about it for decades, I feel like. I know, I just watched that. You ever see the straight story?

No. The David Lynch movie? I haven't, actually. Which I'm sure we own it, because you know, I just watched that, you ever see the straight story? No. The David Lynch movie? I haven't actually. Oh, you gotta watch it. Which I'm sure we own it, because you know, Tracy's insane. It's a masterpiece, and it's not a weirdo movie. It's not like a freaky David Lynch thing. It's a very straight story.

Okay, well I'll have to look. And there's a scene in there between two veterans. It's like mind blowing. Richard Farnsworth. Oh wow, oh wonderful. Yeah. Okay, I'll check it out. Oh, it's, it's, it's. I can't believe I haven't seen it. You gotta see it. I'll yell two veterans. It's like mind blowing. Richard Farnsworth. Oh wow, oh wonderful. Yeah.

Okay, I'll check it out. Oh, it's, it's, it's. I can't believe I haven't seen it. You gotta see it. I'll yell at Tracy. I keep talking about it. I met some guy at the deli last night after I did comedy. Yeah.

And I was like, you've never seen that? That's how I felt when I saw Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence. I feel like I was telling everyone to go see. I know, I do that all the time. Like I discover a movie that's been around for decades. Right? Well, that's why Tracy and I wanted to start like a blog or I don't know what you do now all the time. Like, I discover a movie that's been around for decades. Right? Well, that's why Tracy and I wanted to start like a blog,

or I don't know what you do now, a podcast, or a YouTube, because I feel like we are always, we have all those movies, we own them, and so, you know, when our babysitter, we have this babysitting friend of ours who comes in, she's an actress, and she hadn't seen like Dog Day Afternoon, she hadn't seen Deliverance. She'd seen memes about Deliverance,

but she'd never seen, and like so many kids in this industry have never seen these films. Well, Deliverance, I had seen memes about Deliverance, but she'd never seen, and like so many kids in this industry have never seen these films. Well, Deliverance, I had to go back and watch because I was brought to it by my grandparents. Oh, wow. When I was like 11. So dark. And yeah, but like it's weird what you remember.

I did learn something about kids' brains. It's like I didn't really register the rape. Right, right. You just register the scary parts. Right, yeah, the portent, you feel it. Yeah, and but like when I saw it again, I'm like, wow, they really the scary parts. Right. Yeah, the portent. You feel it. Yeah, but when I saw it again, I'm like, wow, they really show that shit. Yeah, they really do. But you're right, you don't process it. No, because you don't have the point of reference.

Thank goodness. Yeah, it's true. You shouldn't. So you're 10. Yeah, I see a play and I come home and I look in the... So I was talking about my grandfather because he ended up doing some community theater when he got out of the war. Got all these actors around you.

Just one. But your dad. Oh, well, he's, you know, I think he's just, now he's just competing with me. Um, no, I'm just, he's so sweet. I think he did a little bit in college. Yeah. But, um, and I saw the Weathervane Theater

where he was still existed and they were holding like general auditions or something. And I said to my mom, can I do this? Mom was like, no, because my sister and I babysat our little brothers every weekend. And my mom worked at night and so she slept during the day. So she didn't drive us anywhere. So we ever wanted to do, yeah, she's like,

if you can find a ride. We were going to the grocery store and buying her cigarettes. You know, that was the time when you could, you had a note and you bought your mom's cigarettes. So yeah, right, we all did. Skaggs Drugstore. Yeah, totally. We all had, we all did. Skaggs drug store. Yeah, totally. Kent's, Kent's.

We went to ACME or whatever. But so I didn't do it until senior year in high school. I was playing soccer, I was an athlete. I auditioned for the play. I got the lead in our town. And then I ended up doing like four or five plays in college playing. I was also an athlete there.

Where'd you go to college? The University of Mount Union it's called now. It's a small school in Ohio. Ohio. It's just like, they let me play soccer and they had a little bit of support for academics. Did you study anything that resonated? I changed majors like eight times. I was a business and Japanese major for the first two weeks.

How was your Japanese? Terrible, I changed majors immediately. I was like, business, I'm insane. And I think I ended up in education for a while and then I did a classroom observation. I was like, I'm not special enough to be an educator. Yeah. And then I did philosophy for a while.

How'd that go? You know, I loved it, but you know, I had enough credits to become an English Lit major and I studied abroad in Spain and I became a Spanish Lit major, but I did not study theater. How's your Spanish? Oh God, the past tense is really gone.

I'm trying to practice. I try to like, every year I'm like, my duolingo is this, you know, but I'm terrible and I'm so sad. I mean, it would come back if I made the effort, but I don't have time to do anything. Yeah, but so did that sort of engage you in the arts somehow?

Well, I did plays in college and I had a professor who said, I think he could go to graduate school for acting. Now I grew up in Ohio. I didn't know about Juilliard. I didn't know about NYU. So I wasn't, I didn't have any aspirations. So I ended up at UW Madison in Wisconsin. It was 10 actors for three years.

They were remaking the program. Good town. It's a great town. It's a great college town. I like playing there. Yeah, I bet. It's fun. It's a great, you know, it is.

I loved being there. And it was a great place to pay attention to myself for three years in my twenties. So the program was small? Yeah, 10 actors, three years. Good attention from a okay teacher or what? Yes, you know, they were, I feel like my teachers were very different and had different philosophies

about what we were trying to accomplish there. But I had a great voice teacher, Susan Sweeney, who'd come from the PTT program in Delaware, which is kind of a notorious est program. They try out all the est technology on those kids. Oh yeah. Anyway, but she was a great voice teacher. Did she have it or did she run from it?

She had some of that. Yeah. Yeah, sure but she was a great first teacher. Did she have it or did she run from it? She had some of that. Yeah. Yeah, sure. She used it effectively to get in there for us. But I realized having been from the Midwest, I had never maybe taken a deep breath. My voice was not in my body.

And so that was really important. What was the best angle? Was it be present and self affirmation and what was it? I don't think it's, I don't think it's self affirmation. I mean, have you ever gone to the Landmark Forum? No, but I know people, I guess it's, is it a sort of a... I think that life is empty and meaningless

and it's empty and meaningless that it's empty and meaningless would be the overarching philosophy. But it's ambition-based. It's manifesting your best self to do what you do. I think it's sort of like corrupted Buddhism, like there is no self. So it doesn't matter what you do. I know one guy who was in the Landmark Forum and it's-

You can't argue with those people. Well, there's a confidence to it that they're annoying. Yeah, there is, because they're like, oh, that's yours, that doesn't belong to me. So you can't hold them responsible for anything, because they're like, well, that's your experience that you're having that I did not cause in you. Very frustrating.

I can't really wrap my head around to you. I'm walking away. Aggressive. I can't really wrap my head around it. I'm walking away. Aggressive detachment. Yeah, it really is. But the voice work was amazing and really life-changing for me. And then I just kept doing plays. I was doing plays in Wisconsin.

But then how does it become a career? So I went to the American Players Theater in Spring Green, Wisconsin, an amazing outdoor Shakespeare theater that's been around for a long time. Did Shakespeare? I did Shakespeare, I did Chekhov, I did, you know, they do Eugene O'Neill, Players Theater in Spring Green, Wisconsin, an amazing outdoor Shakespeare theater that's been around for a long time. Did Shakespeare? I did Shakespeare.

I did Chekhov. I did, you know, Eugene O'Neill. They do the big ones out there under the stars. And it's an 1,100-seat house outside. And you have to figure out how to fill that space truthfully. And it's a membership thing, so it's pretty full usually. Oh, yeah. I mean, the audience has grown up with them.

Generations of families have been coming to the theater. It's a beautiful place. I highly recommend people go. And you gotta learn how to fill it with your presence. You do, your presence and your voice, which is hard for a little lady. Yeah. And you're in these, you know, you're outside

and so there's rain and there's thunder and lightning. There's all the conditions you have to fight against as well. And you're in upholstery fabrics so they don't get ruined. I was there and a lot of the directors working out there were Chicago based. Everything's made of upholstery fabric. And like, you know, you have to be nice to people because they won't wipe the mosquitoes off your face

when you're playing a dead body. And then, so the directors, James Bonin, who worked at a theater in Chicago, gave me my first job in Chicago. And then I was auditioning at Steppenwolf and I was getting called back. And then eventually my first job on the main stage was Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

And that play ended up going to Broadway and I met Tracy and that's the play that changed my life. Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf, and that play ended up going to Broadway, and I met Tracy, and that's the play that changed my life. Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf. Yeah, because we went to Broadway. But Steppenwolf, what generation of actors were there? Well, I mean, everybody who'd founded it was gone. Laurie Metcalf, all those guys had moved on. It was the new generation.

And Tracy was kind of like, I don't know what you'd consider him. Is he like third generation of Steppenwolf or something? Yeah, I guess. So I was the one kind of coming in under him. And in some ways, I've been tough. Was he, he wasn't there though when you were there? No, he wasn't, he played George. Oh, so you were in that production.

Yeah, this is like post, who's, I mean, this is post August Osage County. I mean, he's kind of the man who was sort of responsible for funding the theater at that point because of his plays. But Tracy and I were, yeah, he'd been, I mean, he and Amy Moran had played married Tracy and I were, yeah, he'd been, I mean, he and Amy Morton had played married like,

I don't know, 12 times or something by then. And so that's where Tracy and I met, and then that play went to Broadway, and that's when I started going to casting directors in New York. And I had done commercials and one guest star spot on TV. Now, like my assumption in terms of what Steppenwolf means and what was going on there,

that there was a, like it was sort of intense and angry and focused bunch of people. I think in the early days it probably was because they were just like hungry students. The thing that Steppenwolf brings and why I think Chicago theater is singular is the ensemble ethic. That it's about telling a story, it's not about one person who stands out from the ensemble ethic. That it's about telling a story.

It's not about one person who stands out from the ensemble. So it's always about what is the best choice you make to tell the story. And that's a great philosophy for theater. And I think that's what makes Chicago actors really unique and special. It's also, I guess, also why sketch comedy has taken over comedy.

It's a standard thing. It was never a standup town, but it was always an improv town. It was, right. And it's a yes and town. Yeah, and that's all ensemble collaborative work. That's right. And like TJ and Dave and the Herald

was like the hour long. Yeah, it's a lot to go through. It's a lot. Yeah, it is a lot to go through, but it's fun to watch. Gosh, it's a hoot. Sometimes Tracy and Mike Shannon do it with those guys and it's really fun to watch.

They do the Herald? Yeah, they do the Herald with TJ and Dave. Tracy was Mike Shannon do it with those guys, and it's really fun to watch. They do the Herald? Yeah, they do the Herald with TJ and Dave. Tracy was supposed to do it a few weeks ago in New York, but he had to bow out because I think everybody was sick or something, but family, you know, blah. So that must be fun. Yeah, good times. But so Tracy, like, as an actor, what in,

so you played opposite him. He was your husband. Yeah, I mean, no, I was playing Honey. So I was playing the younger, I mean, we're 15 years apart. I was playing the younger couple and he was playing George and Martha. So you got to sit there on stage watching him yell. Yeah, I mean, he's very, you know, it's funny,

Tracy, he wouldn't claim to ever being an athlete, but he's really in his body and as an actor, he's such an embodied actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's so great on stage, he's great on stage. I know. I saw him in that Arthur Miller play. Yeah, he was with Annette.

Yeah, all my sons. He was beautiful in that. He was. Yeah, he really was. But I talked to Mangold yesterday. Oh, you did? Yeah, it was so weird. Oh, he had a great time with James.

He loved working on Ford V4R. The life I live, you know, I get out. I was told he's going to be early, and I come out here to set up, and he's sitting in his Porsche in my driveway. I'm like, hey, buddy, you want to? Come in. Yeah, yeah.. I'm like, hey buddy, you wanna? Come in. Yeah, yeah. But I talk specifically about that scene where Tracy gets driven in the Corvette.

Oh my gosh, it's so funny. It's the best scene. It's so, I mean, my grandfather talked about that scene till he died. He loved that movie. He always watched it when it came on TV. That was his favorite part Tracy ever did. But yeah, cause Tracy is really claustrophobic and he was genuinely afraid in that rig. The rig is really fast. Mike, I remember he said that Matt Damon was like, man, you're so pale, are you all right? And he's like, no, I'm not okay.

So like the crying I think came easily, but it's so funny. It's a great choice. So, but do you guys talk about acting? I mean, we talk about everything. That's the nice thing about a marriage where everything's on the tables, you talk about everything. We like the nice thing about a marriage where everything's on the tables, you talk about everything. We like working together, we're great together.

We love, we have a, like, we kind of have a production company. I'm very cynical about it. But, you know, I've done a lot of his plays. We haven't really acted together much since Virginia Woolf, but you know. But you're available. It's a weird way to fall in love.

Yeah, totally. Well, how did you fall in love? Well, I mean, we just, I don't know. It was one of those, we were both in other relationships. Yeah. You know, which I was a serial overlapper anyway. Yeah. That was kind of my thing for a long time.

That's what people do. That's what people do. If you don't know how, if you have no boundaries and you don't like conflict, that's how you get out of things. Yeah, yeah, you just move into another thing. Yeah, like, oops, sorry. Well, this thing seems better.

Are you gonna break up with me now? Yeah, it's a terrible, I mean, it's such a terrible way to move through the world. What is it with the no boundary thing? It Yes, it's a terrible, I mean, it's such a terrible way to move through the world. What is it with the no boundary thing? It's annoying. Oh, it's, nobody, I mean. It's exhausting, dude.

We don't, I know, and you really have to, you really have to be conscious about learning that stuff. If you don't know it. Yeah, or else you're just gonna be drained. That's right, it's terrible. You don't say no to anything. Yeah. Everything has a cause, you're resentful of everybody.

And it's terrible. Yeah. It's terrible. But Tracy and I were, we saw, I mean, he had also had patterns like that in his life and it was like, I see you over there and you're like, neither one, we're not jealous people, like we don't have any of those hangups. So we never, we didn't want to ever be with the police, you know? So it's nice to be in a relationship where I can, we can always talk about like,

well, who's like, who are you attracted to on set? Oh, really? Oh yeah, totally. It's so fun. I love it. He sees like, Tracy's the's like, who are you attracted to on set? Oh, really? Oh yeah, totally, it's so fun. I love it. He sees like, Tracy's the kind of person who sees like everybody on the street when he's walking and every woman.

I mean, he notices every single woman on the street. And he's, he always tells me like, who he has a crush on or people I'm talking about, it's fun. It's interesting to know what your partner's into. Yeah. I think it's like, it's titillating. But it doesn't ever go over the line? I, we don't like, We don't really like lines.

Lines are really boring. Yeah. So I mean, look, life is short. Finite. Finite. And you know, it's like Tracy, you guys know, you both have lost partners in your lives. It's a devastating thing.

And what I think Tracy and you have probably spoken maybe a little bit about this, but I don't think he would mind me saying, I think Tracy understood then from a spoken maybe a little bit about this, but and I don't think he would mind me saying, I think Tracy understood then from a very young age because he went through it. Like he would never begrudge anyone a human experience. In fact, the every day after that for him was a gift he got was to continue living in the world.

And I think he recognizes that. And he sort of embraced being a person of appetites and like acknowledging that we have these proclivities. And actually we're not really, monogamy is sort of something we've imposed on ourselves through, we were supposed to have babies and die when we were like 30. And that's not the way life is anymore.

And so I think you have to stay, you've got to be open-minded about what is, what makes you feel, what engages you in the world and what sparks your imagination and where your passion is. And I think if you, if you're willing to stay open to that, then you're living a more full life. And I don't think either one of us would want to keep the other from living.

Right, I guess the question becomes like, depending on what those passions or proclivities are in relation to compulsion and the damage it may do to your life, that becomes the tricky thing to separate. Well, I mean, there's, yes, yes, because there's reactivity and that's different. Reactivity where you're acting sort of blindly out of your patterns of behavior,

you have to be, you have to also have to be willing to unpack that stuff. And Tracy and I are both, you know, we're both in recovery. We both have done a lot of like AA, Al-Anon therapy. We have a lot of that language in our house. Oh really? I mean, I'm four years in. He's 30, I think he's 31 years.

To Al-Anon or to the other way? I'm actually like kind of double winner. I'm both. Double winner. I'm AA Al-Anon. Me too. I kind of started in Al-Anon and then I was like, well, I actually don't need the other thing either. So our kids are being raised in this like incredibly even keel, like there's nothing volatile in my house.

Because you can immediately take responsibility from your side of whatever. That's right. It is about taking responsibility. And you know, Mark, I had a very serious impulse control disorder. I mean, I was a skin picker from two. I've talked about it a little bit publicly. A skin picker, where does that come from?

Compulsive skin picker. It's an impulse control disorder, you know, like you, people who pick scabs, but then eventually it moved to my scalp. So I was like losing hair and- Were you a nail biter? No, I was just skin picker. You need your nails to pick your skin, Mark.

Yeah. And you know, it's an overactive grooming, but it's impulse control. And it was really debilitating for a long time. And I also use it as an excuse to get out of like difficult conversations. Like, well, I can't have this conversation. It's really making, it's really triggering me.

You know? Right, but do you, were you able to track like the whole trauma business? Yeah. Like, cause I'm talking about it a bit on stage now and it's kind of interesting. Yeah, yeah, cool. I think that's really good.

Well, I think the interesting thing about it is that, you know, trauma is relative to the impact it had on your life. That's very true. So the most profound traumas may not be the ones that have fucked you up for the whole game. Yeah, yeah. And there's something very funny about that.

Yeah. The one that's horrible, you're like, that wasn't the problem. That was fine. I moved through that just fine. Yeah, it's the other thing, the minor thing. Yeah, I think that's true, because I wouldn't consider myself to be like,

I don't have some like big, huge sob story of trauma in my life. I just have like the kind of like work a day, you know, Midwestern sort of alcoholism around, right, family disease kind of stuff. And it's like, who doesn't have that? But like if it manifests it too with you picking your skin off your body

and then it continues to become really aberrant as an adult and you're getting like infections and you can't play soccer because you have a staph infection in your leg, or you have a wound on your body for two years. Yeah, that you kind of self, it's like, that's not okay. It's not sexy. Well, what exactly is the skin picking thing,

sating? Oh God, well, it's like any compulsion. It's like hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored, overstimulated, understimulated, not living authentically. I mean, all the triggers, they're triggers I feel like are the same. But a lot of it usually comes down to like having some control.

Yes, and I also found that it was a, what I've discovered in my process of learning to deal with it, and I would consider myself recovered, is that it's also like, um, it's an absentee of self, there's a withdrawal that happens, right? It's a, there's a dopamine, there's a brain

component, right? You create a stimulus in your, that's actually chemical in your brain. That's the thing you're addicted to. Yeah. Like everybody's addicted to now. And I realized there was like, um, you know, that the, there was an actual like chemical component

to what was happening to me, but any impulse is about 90 seconds long. So if you can create space between the moment you have the impulse and when you actually complete the action, whatever it is, whatever it is, you can actually start to rewire your brain. Absolutely. And that was the stuff. What acting taught me was acting is the opposite, right?

Acting is radical presence. And we speak of acting in like percentages, like what percentage can you be present on stage? I'm sure you feel that in a show, right? It's like the head space an athlete is in. It's the, you know, where you're just like in the flow, like flow state of it. And like picking is the absence that you go away,

you withdraw from presence. That's interesting. And so it was like, to find that that was the actual, the thing that I really wanted to do in my life, acting, was the opposite of the thing that was controlling my behavior or, it was really quite a revelation. Well, because both of them require self-erasure, in a way. Yeah, yeah.

Right? That's true. Yeah, there is an annihilation of self. Right, but you know, when you're on stage, it's part of the craft and part of the job. And the underlying thing is to be present. But when you're doing things to either lose yourself or diminish yourself as a compulsion, that speaks to some other weird thing.

It is some other weird thing. And I think that's what's led me down the road to like, I don't know, this question of, you know, in the sort of Buddhist philosophy where you're talking about like no self, and just sort of how the only thing you can be sure of is that everything changes. So that everything inside of you,

there's no person there. There's no center for those things. And this, the story that you tell about your life, and I don't mean to diminish anyone's trauma, but like storytelling is powerful. And if you can start to let go of that story, then you sort of let go of the idea that there's any person at the center of it

that can be hurt or traumatized or anything. Right, as you get older, it starts to fade anyways. Yeah, it does. I don't remember anything anymore. Yeah, I was trying to remember some part of a story that I used to tell about myself of an event that happened and I'm missing details now. Yeah, isn't that funny?

And that was like the way you asserted who you were was to like, here are my 10 stories I always end up telling. And it gets really exhausting eventually. But I think at the core of it though, like the idea of no self is that like, what I find to be down there is some sort of terror. Well, I don't know, that's interesting.

What do you mean? Like that's the- Well, just a fear, a vulnerability. And I think getting back to, you know, talking about trust. So that vulnerability that you have at the core of yourself that may not be attached to a self can be, you know, very young and based in some sort of strange

abandonment or distance or lack of emotional support or whatever, but I find that when you get right down to it, it's this childish terror of not being taken care of because you don't trust that people do it. Yeah, that if you say your need, that someone will actually be there to meet it. Absolutely, yes. And so that kind of confuses the Buddhism.

But it's also very egotistical in a way. Well, yeah, because your ego is fragmented, so you're gonna hold on to whatever. And you are fundamentally not trust, you're not giving people any credit. You're not allowing people, like you're not allowing for the fact that you actually don't know what

that person is capable of. Right. And that was the thing when I met Tracy that shifted is that there was a person in front of me who I could tell because of all the life he had had, he was older than me. Sure. Like there was nothing I could hand him that

he couldn't hold. Right. So finally, in a way that I never trusted a peer, there was somebody in my life that I could trust. And it wasn't like, it's not like daddy issues. It was like, oh, no, no, I can't, like this person can actually, there's nothing I can say to this person that they can't handle.

And that's like, that's the gift where you start to go, oh, and actually, I've probably underestimated everybody on some level because of, you know, controlling information is egotistical ultimately. Self-protective. It's self-protective, right. Yeah. But like, but then you come back to the,

it's like, what are you protecting, you know? Right, well that's- What's the self you're protecting? What's the big question? And I'm kind of like, well, maybe there's nobody in there. Well, that's not true. I don't know. I kind of start, I'm starting, the older I get,

the more I'm like, it's just like these impulses and. Yeah, I know. Well, sure. It's a, well, I mean, you can break it down to a bunch of ticks and habits. Yeah. Sure. Right. But, but that's something. I mean, it's so funny. Yeah, it is something.

I used to notice that about, about old method actors. You know, when they're, they're clearly doing jobs that they may, you know, that they, that they might not be all invested in, they've still got these ticks and habits that have carried them throughout all of it. That's true, something to rely, and no one's gonna be like, you know, maybe you should consider, no one's gonna give you direction anymore.

That's right. You know, lose that weird thing you do with your head. Right. But so- But it's more fun to, I think it's more fun to like know that's there and be able to let go of it. And make yourself.

Well, I don't do too much acting, but like when I really try to do it, it's, you know, my first, if I get cast in something that's not of type, I realize like, oh, this guy's not neurotic. So I can just turn that part off. Right, and do you find that liberating? Well, yeah. Yeah, because it's a crutch

to do that constant self-reflection thing. To have a guy that doesn't do that is like, sure, why wouldn't that be good? But then you doubt like, well, what's his inner life? Well, how's that gonna matter? If you can just turn off all this other like self-awareness and just live in this present where this guy doesn't take responsibility

for certain things. Well, that's nice for a little while. Yeah, that is nice. Well, isn't that the lovely thing about acting? There's that invitation though outside of the thing. Yeah, I mean, I'm still trying to figure out whether I have any, I try to engage some choices that are not me, but I do think at a core level,

and this is sort of an argument against the lack of self thing, is that when you see people act, I think even the best actors, no matter what they're doing, you do see them. Yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, there's something about them that's also interesting or attractive. There's something they have, I guess,

at the core that's interesting or maybe. Is that true for everybody? Well, I don't know. I think some actors are, I mean, there's something about them that's also interesting or attractive. There's something they have, I guess, at the core that's interesting or maybe. Is that true for everybody? I don't know. I think some actors are, I mean, I feel like there are celebrities and there are actors. No, of course. Celebrities are always kind of doing themselves. But even the most immersive actor. You know it's them.

Yeah, kinda. I'm gonna take that on as a challenge to see who I can find that I think remakes themselves the most. But it's just interesting because I've sat I've sat across from like Ian McKellen. Right. Sir Ian McKellen telling him I don't really get Shakespeare and having him do it and then just go back to Ian McKellen. Yeah. And there was something very revealing about that.

Just that that approach that you know he's just this guy and then he does this thing. Right. And I think more than other people, those Shakespearean guys, they can lose themselves. Like sometimes, sometimes those guys with that kind of deep craft can immerse themselves in something that is fundamentally not them. Yeah. And you kind of buy it. And when they return back, you're like,

what the fuck did you just do? So you see it, but you don't see that on film generally. Like, you don't experience that with actors on film. I'm trying to decide whether I'm talking out my astronaut. But even when you work with the most immersive guys, like I was in a room with Jeremy Strong for three or four days in a very small part where he was playing a big part.

And he's a guy that lives in the character. But the funny thing about him is that when you're in the room with him long enough, like he'll talk like the character, but he'll let you know like, oh no, I can still talk, I can talk about things that Jeremy talks about, but I'm gonna do it- Like this person.

Like this person. Oh yeah, that's a whole, I mean that's, maybe I'm doing it wrong. No, no one, there is no right or wrong. Well, when you watch yourself, are you, maybe I'm doing it wrong. No, no one, there is no right or wrong. Well, do you watch, when you watch yourself, are you, are you, do you watch yourself? And do you, and me too. And are you looking for the things that you,

that are your habits and noticing them? Well, no, because of my, my experiences is still pretty limited. I don't think of your experience as limited. How long do you think you can get away with saying that? I feel like you act a lot. Well, I've been doing more of it, to kind of find out do you think you can get away with saying that? I feel like you act a lot. I've been doing more of it, but to kind of find out,

you know, whether it is like whether the job of, or the actual acting is worth it in relation to the sitting. It's really kind of this fundamental problem I have. It's like, okay, we're gonna act for three minutes and then you're gonna sit for three hours. So is the- TV and film's different than theater. Totally, but theater I haven't done since I was in college.

But- Would you ever? I almost, I expressed interest in it and then when they told me the schedule of what it would take to get something up, it was like, oh my God. It's really hard. Yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, four weeks,

you know, putting it together, previews, and then we'll see if anyone comes and just, but I'm on stage, you know, every night of my life. Right, of course, you're doing that all the time, yeah. But what we were speaking about before too is sort of interesting about presence, you know, as a comic, that there's something happening to me now that's never happened before.

What's that? Which is like, you know, everything's pretty immediate and pretty life or death for me, you know, in terms of what I'm trying to express. And I feel that my intensity speaks to that when I'm doing stuff on stage. And I found that if, like, you know, look, you've got enough craft in place to where

it doesn't have to be that dire, and it might be a relief for the audience if you weren't so intensely needy for them to understand you. Uh-huh. And so, like I, cause I told my friend Sam, in the midst of this global collapse

and political collapse, I was on the phone with Lipsight and I was like, you know, I just can't, there are comics out there that are just kind of laying back. And I said to Sam, I said, I just want to take it easy. And he goes, he says, that should be your new special, Mark Maron, take it easy.

Take it easy. That's good. That would be really good. But it's stuck in my head. That like, look dude, you know, and I think the revelation of it was just that my audience is like-minded. They're sensitive, creative, grownup people

who are experiencing a lot of despair was just that my audience is like-minded. They're sensitive, creative, grown-up people who are experiencing a lot of despair and traumatic stress going on, and there's no real solution, and I don't have them. So, like, I had this moment where I'm like, I will commiserate with you for the first 10 minutes because I'm in the same spot you are with the same feelings,

and we can judge the other side, we can do whatever, but what's more important is how are we dealing with it, and then after that 10 minutes, I'm like, all right, now I will entertain you. But that's new for me. The idea of entertaining. For me- Oh, that's interesting,

because of course I find you entertaining. I've seen your sets, and I think of them as very entertaining, even when you're talking about the things I'm most passionate about like the end of the world. Right, but for me it's very important. Yeah. And it's not that it's any less important,

but I can shift the tone a little bit where I'm like, all right, well, so we just talked about Hitler, now I have this cat. Right, to the personal. Yeah. And then how does it feel? Does it feel differently in your body when you do that? It does.

Because I'm not, what happens is if you get to that place, the self-consciousness and the need for connection changes. Right, because you have to accept that like, well, they're here to see me, so the need for attention has been fulfilled already. So once you open it up a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, but in terms of the acting thing,

with watching myself, and not so much with comedy, but similar in that, I know when I'm like, oh, so that moment, you weren't there. Right, yeah. And that's really what happens. Uh-huh. But I just did this indie where I had to play a lead and it was the first time.

And all I know about whatever the fuck I did there, you know, I was ready, I kind of showed up for the job, was that I never went home thinking I blew it somehow. That's good. For a month. That's a nice feeling. It's good. Yeah, like they got what they needed

and I can go to sleep. But also, like, I did everything I could. Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I showed up for the thing and I couldn't have done it any differently. Well, that's good. And that's where your life is lived. Your life isn't lived in how the thing gets received in the world, right? Your life is lived in the making of it. I guess.

It is. I know. You can't control the other thing. Yeah, but why are we watching? What do you mean, why are we watching? Why are we watching ourselves and wondering and why are we saying things like no one saw that movie? Because the next time you, oh well yeah, no one saw that movie is a sad statement to make,

but like also I loved making the movie that nobody saw. That's where my life got lived. My life didn't get lived when it came out. And like you get to then watch your movie, even if nobody else does, and say, oh, there's that thing I do when I'm mad. Maybe next time I'm mad, I'll try not to do that thing. Oh, try to do a different thing.

Yeah, and like that way you don't, then you are remaking yourself, I think, in a more interesting way. I don't know how successful I am at that, but I just know that that's something I'm trying to do. So when you watch it, you can assess your choices and wonder if there are other ones? Yeah, I'd be like, oh no, like I do this thing with my jaw

whenever I'm playing, like that's not, if you're, again, it's just like the way you're, it's the same thing as reactivity. Like if you're always acting, it's just like the way you're, it's the same thing as reactivity. Like, if you're always acting in your relationships out of a pattern you have, and it's unexamined, it's the same in acting. It's like, oh, I always do that. When I'm playing a character who's mad, it's like, why are my shoulders up to my ears every time?

Why can't I stand up straight? You know? In life, I don't know why I can't stand up straight. I mean, it was a fundamental question that our grandparents were always asking. I know what it is though. Oh, well that's good, as long as you know. I'm hiding my non-existent stomach. Oh, see?

Aw. At least you know, see, that's not unexamined. Yeah, but I wrote on a note for that movie, I'm like, don't slouch. This guy doesn't slouch. Look at you taking notes. I know, but I don't think I wore, I don't think I locked in.

You're like in some scenes you did. Some scenes you did. But with acting in terms of like, you know, a right or wrong way to do it, I don't think, like I was fortunate in going into that movie a couple of weeks before I talked to Pacino. Yeah. And I don't know, like there was some sort

of mind blowing thing because like, he's not the guy you think he is. And when you talk to him, he's just kind of neurotic, shy, you know, guy. And like what he was talking about in terms of why he acts, and I don't know why I never really fully put it together is that as an artist, as opposed to just an actor, you know, he was in pursuit of truth. And I don't know why that was so mind blowing to me.

Because I don't think I ever was so mind blowing to me. Oh wow. Cause I don't think I ever framed it that way. I knew about being present, but I never saw the journey that presence implies truth in a moment, but the actual drive to act, in any situation or any production is to find truth. Yeah.

And it was helpful. That's why I hate when people say actors are the best liars. I'm like, no, no, no, it's actually, it to find truth. Yeah. And it was helpful. That's why I hate when people say actors are the best liars. I'm like, no, no, no, it's actually, it's the truth. Right. It's not lying, it's the other thing. Well, yeah, well, there's, I think there are guys, yeah, people who say like, well, actors

are just good at pretending. Yeah. But it's not when you're in it. It's not that. It's actually radically the other thing. Yeah, more so than in your life sometimes. Yes, yes. I mean, so many actors are so uncomfortable

doing publicity or getting their picture taken. They're some of the most shy people I know are actors, you know? Yeah, I remember when I talked to John C. Reilly, you know, he was like, I don't usually do this because I just don't want to, you know, he says, I want to keep up the mystique. Yeah, well, there's probably something to be said for that.

A little mystery is probably good. You shouldn't be operating at full disclosure. And then we ended up talking about clowns for an hour. Oh yeah, well, that's like, that's his stuff, right? He likes that kind of stuff. I haven't seen him in a movie in a while. I know, I'm trying to, I guess the last thing was Tracy's show.

You know, the winning time about, on the Showtime show. Oh yeah, that's right, that's right. That's the last thing I remember watching John. So like, when you, like, all right, so when you get cast in this White Lotus business, the winning time about on the Showtime show. Oh yeah, that's right. That's the last thing I remember watching John. All right, so when you get cast in this White Lotus business, what do you draw from?

When you look at that and go like, I can do this, what was appealing about that character? The appealing thing was working with Mike White. I've always been a fan of Mike's work. I think enlightened is a genius television show. Chuck and Buck I love. I just think there's and Buck I love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just think there's nobody quite like him. Yeah, yeah, he's a-

And the show is obviously, you know, in the business, everyone was trying to get on the white lotus. Yeah, yeah. And there was a part for me, so I auditioned for it. And I don't know, she wasn't, I do have a, whenever I read a script, I have a feeling like if I can picture myself doing it, then I'm like, yeah, this is mine.

I'd like to go for this thing. Yeah, yeah. Or I'm like, oh, you know what you need. I'm always casting the thing for her. And I really felt that before. I do that too, who turned this down? Yeah, right? Yeah, exactly.

Five people before you got to me. Yeah, she's not that far from me. I feel like the script is contemporary and accessible. And so it's not like the Gilded Age, right? It's not like there's a dialect and a corset or anything. You're just like slouching around in your bathing suit. Yeah. And you know, she's an alcoholic, which I completely understand.

And I mean, Mike's so good at casting. Like there's something essential in the person he puts in a part. Yeah. That makes them appropriate for the part. And then he's great at selecting for performance. Yeah. And he's also, Mike is not precious about his writing. Yeah.

He's pretty like, he responds to what actors are good at, I think. Suggesting. And yeah, he throws out new stuff, there's a lot of improv. Oh yeah. And yet, he's also not arbitrary. So it's very exactly, he knows what he needs. Yeah. And if he's not getting it, you will stay there until he gets it.

So like you were saying about your movie, it's satisfying at the end of the day, actually, I don't think we would have gone home if Mike didn't get what he needed for the show. Right. You got to trust a director to a certain degree. I can't imagine what it would be like to not trust a director. Well, it happens. But you're like, well, I don't think you know what you're doing.

So I guess I'll try to throw some stuff out there. The director I work with on that movie, I wouldn't say he's neurotic, but he's very compulsive in terms of how his brain works. So, you know, if he, like, he would give you, the hard thing for me when I do it is like, where were we right before this? If you're shooting out of sequence.

Right, oh, cause you always shoot out of sequence. How the fuck are you gonna figure that out? But this guy was very diligent to the point where, for the whole week, he'd write out where you were. And I'm like, I can't read all this, dude. Yeah, you're like, actually. Just tell me. Five words, we're in this.

Where are we in this story? Yeah. So what was it that got you into Al-Anon first? Well, I mean, I don't wanna speak to, my people are all still around. Sure. But there's, you know, I'll just say, there's alcoholism in my family.

Right. And what I came to understand is that I had some emotional habits. Yeah. Things things about not trusting other people, lying. I was a compulsive liar. And enabling people-pleaser stuff? Absolutely.

Completely constitutionally incapable of any conflict or any boundary setting. So I actually had a boyfriend once who I needed to break up with him and I just literally stopped speaking. And he actually came over with like a pack of paper and a pencil and said, could you just write something down? Yeah. I mean, I could not speak. That's how terrible I was at asserting what I

needed or wanted so much. So I think for maybe men can speak to this too, but I know for women, it's like you spend so much time, um, say managing other people's emotions as a middle child too. I was always aware everybody, you're only as happy as the unhappiest person in any room. And then you lose complete track

of what it is you even want. You're like, is it me that wants this? Or am I just like reading what this person wants me to be? Or you just become a reaction. Exactly, and I was just remaking myself in the image of whatever boyfriend I was with and staying with them as long as, until I wanted to explode,

but couldn't say that either. You know, it was just like terrible. And it was very, you know, like I said, controlling information is really egotistical. It just presumes they can't take, they can't. Right, no, right, right. And also, or that somebody needs you, like they can't live without you,

there's that one too. That was one I really loved. It's egotistical, but also to speak to that, like what is self? You know, when you live like that, you don't have one. No, you don't. And you're so hyper compartmentalized. Like you're just code switching all the time.

And there's nothing integrated about you as a person. Yeah, and also on the other side of that, now that we're talking about it, I think that's why you get into performing as almost like, you know, a fuck you. Yeah, I mean, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you can own your own space.

And there's unity in it, yeah. And there's, like, the right kind of attention. Boundaries. Yeah, weirdly, there's probably, like, you have some control over the building of the thing. But also, you have a thing. Yeah. It's a compartmentalized thing.

Yes. We're all working to do this thing. You also have freedom. Yeah. Also, like, nothing you're doing inside of that performance is no one else is being like, is that how you're gonna, you know, there's no one judging the way you're living your life, which I was also deeply uninterested in. I didn't want people telling me that. Well, sometimes it gets a little competitive, I think.

Sure. That was the other thing that I kept thinking about when I did this movie was when I talked to Ethan Hawke about doing Training Day. And he said he was watching Denzel Washington movies like they were training films. Like the football teams watch the other team because he just did not want to get eaten for lunch. Yeah, I mean, that's real.

You don't want to get eaten for lunch. That's true. If you care about what you're doing. Yeah, it saved me in a scene with that scene with Sharon Stone, it saved me. Cause I just did one scene with her. And after the first two takes, I'm like, I'm disappearing, dude.

I'm not in character. I'm just sitting there going like, Sharon Stone is consuming me. Yeah, I felt that way with Holly Hunter. I know you did. Oh, completely. I was terrified. And how'd you transcend it? I was just like, I just have to be really memorized

and really prepared and just like be really present. I don't think I did. I think I was scared the whole time. She's terrifying. I mean, I love her so much. And she was marvelous to me in this film we made, but she's a terrifying scene partner because she has that thing inside of her

where she's like a cat or like a live wire. And you just like, oh, you could kill me. You could actually kill me right now. You might. I wouldn't see it coming. And she's so alive. The only thing that saved me was this stuff I got from Pacino's book.

And I think it was like Stanislavski stuff. Go to the character. Why are you there? Where did you come from? What are you doing? Given circumstances, right? And your intention. that's it. That's good, that's good.

That's like, you know, it's acting 101 in a way, but you always are like, oh, the basics, right? I have to go back to the basics, yeah. I didn't even know the basics. Well, it takes you outside of yourself. Yeah, after melting down in my trailer, like Leonardo DiCaprio in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, yelling at my manager, I'm like, I can't do this.

It was a mistake. It's fucking Sharon Stone up there. And then having the moment where I'm like, dude, this is it. You know, do the thing. Do the thing. Do the guy. What does the guy think about this person?

Why are you here? And fucking be in it. Yeah, get outside of you and whatever your neuroses are. You gotta check that stuff at the door. You can't make it about you. It was crazy. That's the nice thing though, is it can't be about you. But everything's about me.

I know, but that's the exercise you're doing though. But the moment where you think you fucked up a take, and those first two takes, all I saw was an entire crew going like, mm. They actually paying attention yeah I know but in my thought I was looking at every face going like man it's like narcissism you know I guess it's helpful sometimes it can't I mean I it's funny I don't I've gotten good about not like Vicki creeps said something in it you know that the great actress Vicki Kreep, she was talking about, she said that she's now approaches the work in a take,

she's like, how wrong can I go? Like how far outside of what this character is doing can I go? And she said, that's what scientists do, they're actually like trying to narrow down into the thing by like kind of setting parameters that are far outside of what they're looking for. I was like, that's a great way to think about it.

And I just, I've always felt that that kind of self-consciousness always has gotten in my way. So it's like to get out of your own way, you have to be willing to screw up a take. You have to be willing to like, sorry everybody. That was so bad, you know, and try again. And as a young actor and as a young woman, where you're trying to be a good girl and a good student,

you're trying to guess what everybody wants you to do. And then you're not really making choices. And you're certainly not making interesting choices. And you're not giving be a good girl and a good student. You're trying to guess what everybody wants you to do, and then you're not really making choices, and you're certainly not making interesting choices, and you're not giving a range of choices. Right, but at some point you gotta believe that you're there because they wanted you. And you do, you have to believe that. You're right, you have to believe that.

That's gonna save you. And I learned that all the way back in Virginia Woolf. I was like, okay, you got this job, you have this job, and now you have to be in that room like you have this job, not like you're trying to get this job. You have this job. And now you have to be in that room, like you have this job, not like you're trying to get this job. You already have it. And that's like a little click, but it's really important.

Yeah. So, I interviewed Fincher. I love Fincher. He wouldn't let us release it. He wouldn't? No, I talked to him for like two hours. Why? Because something wasn't right.

He's so controlling. God, I love him so much. Why? What was it about? Oh, he was wonderful to me. I had a wonderful experience. That was my first movie I ever made, Mark. I'd never made a movie before, and then I was working with David Fincher.

Yeah, but like what about this, the reputation of like a thousand takes? Oh, I mean, people knew they would get fired. You know, people were getting, people get fired off of David Fincher movies. Yeah, but what about the multiple takes? Yes, absolutely. We know, people were getting, you know, people get fired off of David Fincher movies. I mean. But what about the multiple takes? Yes, absolutely.

We did, we often did 88 takes or 71 takes. And then every now and then you would do five and he'd be like, he would always use it to, he, you know, Ben was so happy to be there. Ben Affleck, cause he's, you know, he's a director. He was thrilling for him to be working. So he was always behind the camera trying to figure out what David was doing

and why he was doing it and talking to the DP. And he's like, come on, you know, you have to be in the scene, you know? But he was just giving Ben so much shit all the time. So he would, whenever we would get something, like I would get something in five takes, he'd be like, Carrie, that was excellent. Ben, could you be a little less somnambulant? You know, like he was such a shit. I remember there was one take with Kim Dickens.

He's like, make sure you notice the cat, you know? And then Kim, he walks in and does the take and he's like, Kim, it's the first time you've seen this cat, not a cat. You know, it's just kind of his way. Was she the detective? Yeah, yeah, I love, I mean, she's a very dear friend. We had a great time down there and Kate,

they were all really, really generous to me on that job. But you know, he's so, and my people are really sarcastic and really dark and just like always putting you in your place, so for for me it was love language. So I got along great with David. And I said to David, I was like, David, you hired somebody who's never made a movie before. I don't know the language.

When you say screen direction, I don't know what the monk you're talking about. But if you explain it to me, I can do it. And he was so wonderful. He'd be like, come here, look at the frame. This is really tight. You gotta glide out on your foot, okay? Glide, okay.

And he just taught me so much. That's good. But he's like an athlete in that he's like, he's got this incredible field vision. He's seeing everything at once. And that's why you can't make it about you. If it's about you, he'll tell you. Don't assume it's about you unless he tells you.

It's probably about the fact that I remember I heard him say one time to the DP, he's like, here's your frame. He goes, that's not my frame. Because my frame has 12 rafters and yours has 13. You know, like that kind of level of control. So intense, but I adore him. And the shift from, like, because a lot of actors

don't have the stage experience you have. Yeah, helpful. Yeah, like, but how? Because it seems like there's a- Well, when you're doing a play, you rehearse for five weeks. But I'm always yelling. And like, I don't- Wait, yelling on set? Well, when I'm doing a play, you rehearse for five weeks. But I'm always yelling. And like I don't...

And yelling on set? Well, when I'm on set, it's just a natural thing for me to go, how's it going? You know, like I don't... Like, and then you're working with actors who are like... Oh, the whisper ones? They're like fine. I know.

We hate table, as theater actors, we hate film table reads because everyone's just like mumbling. It's like, I can't hear you. Can't hear what you're, it's just, we're just reading it out loud in a room. Could you read it out loud? I know Tracy, I was always laughing about that. Like, why are you mumbling in here?

But the sort of shift from, because you're still on stage in both situations. Yeah, in a way. I mean, I always feel like, you know, on stage, the thing about it is that your body is always telling a story in space. And so you have to be really economical. Because any move you make, everybody can see it.

And you will either distract or add to the story, depending on what you're doing. Like standing in front of a chair, but not sitting in it, you know, like that kind of stuff. And so when you have that experience, I feel like then even on camera, maybe it's more embodied. Maybe.

Oh, that's interesting. Cause he said that about Tracy, the full body guy. I always find that when people are in their bodies, I think it's really sexy. It's very appealing to me. And I feel like I can tell actors who sometimes have like, maybe just been doing TV and film too long. Yes, that too.

That can be really visceral. I'm in my body, I don't love it. But you're aware of it all the time. Totally, yeah. Yeah, I mean that counts. That counts, absolutely. I give you credit for that. Yeah, I don't know, I think the theater,

also in theater, the other thing people don't realize when they're, like when the kids wanna be famous in TV, they don't realize like, I remember one of my jobs when I was doing a guest star spot, I held somebody hostage, and so I was like screaming and holding a gun, and it was like a 17 hour day. So I was screaming all day long. Well, you know, if you don't know how to use your voice,

because you never filled an 1100 seat house in Wisconsin, you're gonna lose your voice. So like, it's not easy to do something like that for 17 hours. And I feel like theater gives you a kind of stamina too. So what's going on outside of White Lotus? What's going on with his three daughters? Is that up for anything?

Oh no, I mean, no, it was hopeful. Netflix took really good care of us, I think, and we had a great- It's a great movie. I like Oz, he's a great guy. Thank you. I know, I know you got to speak to him. I adore him, and Tracy adores him. I'm so glad I got to work with him.

And I love Lizzie and Natasha. We had a really special process that we'll always have. We were hopeful that it could crack some. We're getting the Robert Altman Award of the Indie Spirits. That's an ensemble award. Yeah, that's a wonderful award. When is that? I'm proud to get an ensemble award.

Did it already happen? Oh no, it's this month. Tracy's flying in from New Zealand. Is it down in Santa Monica? I don't know, Mark. I can only, I'm one day at a time. Yeah, I went there once. Maybe.

Yeah, I think it's down on the beach. Is it? Yeah, yeah, in a big. Where all the toxic ash is rushing away into the ocean now. Yeah, everybody's gonna try to talk about that in a heartfelt way. Oh no. Yeah.

I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna present an award, I think, but I'll avoid all the earnestness. I think I presented with Aubrey Plaza. Oh. And then I think Patton was hosting it. That's all. Oh, Patton.

I worked with Patton in Ghostbusters, so it's gonna work with him, yeah. Oh, wait. He thought I was in, what's the, you know, Pedro Pascal's show. Oh, the apocalypse. Based on the video game. The apocalypse show.

Yeah, Anna Torv is in it. And Patton, when he saw me on the set of Ghosts, he was like, oh my God, my daughter and I love your show, can I take your picture? I was like, honey, Patton, I'm not Anna Torv. That's Anna Torv in that. Did he argue with you? And he was like, oh my God.

It was so, he felt so terrible, but it was actually hilarious. I laugh now every time I see him, I just, it's great. He's like, I'm like, no, Patton, that's not me. So when you do these movies, if it's like a Marvel movie or Ghostbusters, you just look at it as like, this will be fun? Yeah, I mean, you know what?

Jason Reitman's first Ghostbusters script, the Ghostbusters afterlife, felt like an indie film. It felt like a Jason Reitman independent film. And McKenna Grace is a great young actress and the fact that she was gonna be the protagonist of the movie was great. So that felt like an indie. He's good. He's an intense guy.

Yeah, Jason's really particular. I liked a lot of his movies. I like Jason a lot. Yeah, he's a friend. That Coney one, he did good. Yeah, Up in the Air, right? That was kind of the one that put him on the map. I love that movie.

I know, it's a great movie. There's movies like that there, that I can watch again, again and again. Well, I mean, I have over 10,000 DVDs in my house, so we don't have time to rewatch. To really rewatch? No. I'm finding I do it more now,

just to keep my brain out of the shit. That's nice. Do you find it comforting? I get very engaged with movies. They fuck me up pretty hard, because I think my lack of boundaries somehow or another. You're so permeable. Yeah, and so movies, they fucked me up pretty hard because I think my lack of boundaries, like somehow or another. You're so permeable. Yeah, and so like, so movies like when I leave a movie,

I'm like, that happened in my life. Oh, Mark, how are we gonna get you some boundaries, honey? I'm working on it. You are? Yeah, just, hostility, I think, help. Oh, well that's okay, that's another kind of reactivity to rely on, I guess. It's an aggressive boundary.

Maybe you need to go that far and then come back from it, maybe. I probably have to go back to Al-Anon. Yeah, you do. You do. You have to detach with love. I do a joke, a line that only people in Al-Anon get about. I gotta decide whether I wanna put it in the special because it's all about boundaries.

The arc of the bit is really just this whole relationship that was just horrible and she had mental problems, I have mental problems. And it got to the point where after we'd broken up, she was just coming by the house. Oh no, oh that's not good. And it's a little intense. And I said, the truth is I said I had to take out

a restraining order and I don't like to admit that, but what I don't like to admit more is the reason. Is that, like I didn't think she was. You couldn't set the boundary yourself? That's right, I didn't think she's gonna hurt me. I was afraid I was gonna get back together with her. So I had to get the police involved. Totally, oh God, 28 year old me really relates to that, Mark.

I would have absolutely gotten back together. But I talk about going to a men's al-anon group, you know, because out of panic and it's just, I was just, it's just me in a room with 200 alpha doormats. Totally. Yeah, yeah. It's so nice to see that side of masculinity. Oh yeah. It's real. Just these guys are like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I can't seem to tell her

anything. You can't break up with her. Yeah. Oh dude, I hear, I study the science of the universe. I study the science of the universe. I study the science of the universe. I study the science of the universe. I study the science of the universe. I study the science of the universe. I study what I'm gonna do. I can't seem to tell her anything. I can't break up with her. Yeah. Oh dude I studied abroad because I had two boyfriends. Oh really? I was like I think I'll just go to Spain for a while. Oh my god. And my grandma wrote me

this amazing letter where she was like you know she saw all of it happening. Yeah. You know she didn't learn to say no till her 70s, which she was very open about. And she was like, pity's not the same as love. And it doesn't dignify the other person. It doesn't give them any autonomy. Doesn't give any, they're not making any decisions if you're not giving them all the information. It was like, I don't wanna do this anymore.

You can't say that to somebody. It's awful. And then everybody eventually winds up where they should be, I think. Oh, sometimes it takes too long. Yeah, it's like, it could have been a shorter story. It could have been a much shorter story. People could have gotten on with it a little faster.

I know it's terrible, but. We'll be all right. You seem good. Yeah, I'm so good. I have an amazing life and I have a really good partner, as you know. Love that guy. I know he's a really special guy.

Nice talking to you. You too, thanks for having me. There you go. A lot packed in for that conversation. White Lotus is streaming on Max with new episodes on Max and HBO on Sundays. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, people, check out the new Audible original podcast that's anything but typical, The Unusual Suspects with Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell. This unlikely duo is speaking with some of the world's most influential figures to hear

their unexpected success stories. Hear guests like Jimmy Kimmel, WNBA legend Sue Bird, Maryland Governor Wes Moore, Dr. Dre and others. Listen to The Unusual Suspects with Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell on Audible now. Go to audible.ca slash unusual suspects. Looking for a community that has it all? Welcome to Crossings, the urban hub of West Lethbridge. At Crossings you'll find a vibrant village designed for living, working, and connecting. With top-notch schools, a state-of-the-art rec center,

retail spaces, and parks, it's more than a neighborhood, it's a lifestyle. Enjoy NHL-size arenas, an aquatic center, an accessible playground, a 55-acre sports park, pathways, and a library with enriching programs. Learn more at crossingslethbridge.ca. All right, gang, on Thursday, I tried to get some answers about the state of our brains in this modern media and information environment.

My guest will be Chris Hayes, who just wrote a book about all of this called The Siren's Call. The addiction metaphor is interesting because I actually think like to me, I think it's, the reason it's different from booze, drugs or cigarettes and it's much more like food is that it's unavoidable in the way food is. I mean, the thing about having an addictive or torture relationship with the food

is that unlike other things, you can't abstain. Well, yeah, sex and food. other things you can't abstain. Well, yeah, sex and food. Yeah, you can't abstain. And attention you can't abstain from either. You're gonna put your attention somewhere at all times. You're gonna be in your head at all times. You can't outrun it. You're going to have to live with how you manage your attention,

where it goes, how you regulate it in the same way way that you're going to have to put food in your body. And so I do think the addiction metaphor is useful, but it's not useful in the sense that abstaining is not an option. I mean, you can abstain from the phone, but then you're going to have to like, you still got the brain. You're going to get real needy around the other people in your life. You're going to start annoying your loved ones. They're like, why you like this? I'm like, I'm just taking a break from my phone and you've got to somehow match that the amount I get out of the phone.

You got to do that. Please entertainment. Yeah. Yeah. That full talk with Chris Hayes is coming up on Thursdays. WTF to get every episode of WTF ad free, go to the link in the episode description, or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by a cast.

Here's some guitar from the vault, some old stuff, some classic riffs. Yes. So So So I'm gonna be a good boy So So I'm gonna be So Boomer lives, monkey and Lafondia cat angels everywhere. Alright, okay, okay.