WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 796 - Reza Aslan

Episode Date: March 22, 2017

Religious scholar Reza Aslan has spent his life studying the facts and misconceptions about belief and the evolutionary reasons people need to believe in something larger than themselves. Beginning with his family fleeing a religious revolution in Iran, then landing in Oklahoma as a child and growing up in a Latino community in San Jose, Reza talks with Marc about his lifelong exploration of faith, including the findings of his new documentary series, Believer. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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ears what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome welcome to it. How are you holding up? My heart goes out to people who lost people in the UK in that horrible event. And I, you know, and just everything else. Everything else. Today on the show, I have a conversation I had last week with Reza Aslan, the writer, theologian, is that what you call it? He specializes in religions, perhaps you know him. He's a frequent guest on news shows and other shows.

He's written some great books. He's now the host and executive producer of the show Believer on CNN. It airs Sunday at 10 p.m. He was also a consulting producer on the HBO show The Leftovers, and you can pick up some of his books like No God But God and Zealot, The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, wherever you get books. Interesting talk. it the life and times of jesus of nazareth wherever you get books interesting talk so i had paul rust here the other day and uh he had brought up a thing that he did with me years ago now i operate in especially when i was doing radio i was you know in such a um I was in such a state of sort of exhaustion and and uh panic and just uh some version of post-traumatic stress disorder that I my memory

is sort of shot from those times but but I talked to Brendan McDonald my producer and um and we he and he went out he went and found this radio bit see that back in the day when we were doing when I had moved to LA after the Air America time and I was doing a nightly show out of KTLK, we had a working relationship with the UCB Theater to do comedy sketches with their students and performers. I didn't know a lot of them, but we'd get referred them and they'd pitch stuff. So we found the bit. So we found the bit. This was in March 2006, the first week that the Marc Maron show was on the air here in Los Angeles on KTLK, as I said. The bit happened over the course of our, it was a two hour show. And it was Paul calling in four different times with the idea being that we had a real time movie reviewer, someone who would tell us how a movie was going as it was happening that was the uh that was the riff that was the angle so uh so here it is this is paul russ back in 2006 with me uh on the the mark maron show there's all four parts together

listen folks it's friday it's a big movie, and it's also just a couple of days away from the Oscars, so we thought we'd try something pretty revolutionary here to help satisfy the public's need for accurate, up-to-the-minute film criticism. Live on the phone, friends, from the Arclight Theater is our real-time movie reviewer, Paul Rust, who's going to conduct the world's first film review during the course of the movie. Paul, are you there? Yes, yes, I'm here. I'm right here in the theater. Okay, what's going on?

Right now, the previews actually have just started, and there's a moment of anticipation in the air for the movie, Mark. Sure, sure. Sure, you all set up there at the theater? Yeah, yeah, there's a preview right now for Failure to Launch, the Matthew McConaughey vehicle. Uh-huh. And it looks pretty good. Okay.

All right, Paul. So why don't we let you get settled in, and we'll get back to you in a few minutes when you can give us a review of the first act. What are we going to be seeing? Do you have any idea? We're going to be seeing the Oscar-nominated Good Night and Good Luck. All right. All right.

Well, I appreciate you doing this, Paul. It's a revolutionary thing, and no one's ever done it before. We're breaking new ground tonight, Mark. You're telling me, man. So I'm looking forward to the As It Happens review. We'll get back to you, so hang tight and enjoy the movie. Okay, thank you, thank you. Okay, and try to be quiet.

Yes, yes. Okay, good, good, good. All right, so we'll check back in with Paul. That's going to be interesting. It's never been done before. All right, so folks, as you know, if you've been listening, we've got live on the phone right now from the Arclight Theater is our real-time movie reviewer, Paul Rust,

who is going to be reviewing, what's it called again? The Good Night and Good Luck, the movie about Edward R. Murrow, as it unfolds. Paul, what's happening in the film, Paul? Well, so far in Good Night and Good Luck, Edward R. Murrow has actually been forced to go undercover, get this, as an obese African-American woman. It's very funny. Wait, wait, wait, Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul, it sounds like you're in the wrong theater, Paul.

I think you're watching Big Mama's House 2. Is that possible? Ah, um, actually, yeah, now it makes sense why Edward R. Moreau kept saying, damn, girl. Now that's all clear now. All right, Paul, Paul, just get yourself into the right theater, and we'll call you back in a little while, okay? Sounds good. Thank you, Mark. All right, buddy.

All right. Wow, that should be... He was in the wrong theater. How long does it take to really realize that? Do you know what I mean? I mean, he's sitting there. Maybe he doesn't know Edward R. Murrow is. Right now, we've got a guy at the movies.

We've got our guy, Paul Rust, who is a real-time movie reviewer. We are breaking new ground on radio. He's at Good Night and Good Luck, and let's check in with him. Paul, what's happening in the film, my friend? Well, right now, Edward R. Mur right, his uncle, he died, and now Murrow has to spend the night in a haunted house to inherit it. What the hell are you talking about? I mean, I saw the movie.

I don't remember that. I don't understand what you're talking about. No, I said a large sprite. Wait a minute, Paul. Wait, Paul. What? You're at the concession stand. Come on, man.

You're supposed to be the movie guy. Okay, Mark. What? The movie's pretty boring, okay? And I just wanted some Sour Patch Kids. So how long are you spending out there? I mean, you're just making stuff up now? I mean, can you just get your food and go back in the movie and let's try and pull this together

and get a good close on this thing? Because we want to do this again, Paul. It's very boring. Yes, I can give it a shot. Just go finish the film and we'll call you in a few. I guess we'll get back to you in about 15 minutes and find out how it ends and see if we can close this up with a little

juice, alright? Can I bring the Sour Patch Kids? I don't know. What movie theater? Yeah, you're allowed to eat in the theater. Come on. Thank you. I'll talk to you in a minute. Man, I thought that was going to work out so much better. You can't even watch the whole damn movie? Let's check back in with our buddy Paul Rust, who's down there at the Arclight. He's doing an in-theater review of Good Night and Good Luck.

Paul, what's happening, Paul? Mark, Mark, I know I should be quiet, but this movie is too exciting, okay? It says Edward R. Murrow has just been demoted, okay? And him and Fred Friendly are not happy about this. They are quite disenchanted, yeah. What? Shut up. What? Shut up. What? Shut up.

You're ruining the movie. Okay. Hey, this is a free country, buddy. Okay? Don't try to censor me. All right. Censor me, McCarthyite. I'm a Merle.

I'm a Merle here, baby. All right, Paul. Paul, maybe I get out of theater there before you get hurt. How would that be? Yeah, maybe. So the movie really picked up, and I'm glad you got excited. It sounds very compelling. I think you made it really interesting for everybody yeah mark i'm not one for hyperbole but this movie is blowing my mind all right man well thank you for doing the first mark maron show real-time movie review paul we'll try it again later thank you okay buddy take care

you too so there you go that was a little blast from the past me uh improvising with paul rust on a phoner sketch that music by the way if you're wondering uh we used there was by the tomorrow men so now i've got uh raise a aslan coming up. And it's another interesting thing. Back when I was doing morning radio, he would also call in. And I remind him of that. He was sort of the go-to guy for Muslim-related news on some level. I never met him face-to-face. And it was exciting to talk to him in person because it was

a talk about faith, about religion, about his new show, which I watched a few episodes of. And I liked, and I'm somebody that doesn't have a real religion in place. I don't have a God in place. I go in and out of faith. I do tend to find a lot of reprieve in doing this and doing stand-up and playing guitar and being creative and trying to have conversations with people and connect with people. But faith is interesting, and it was a very sort of deep and personal conversation that we had about a lot of stuff, ranging from intellectual things to things in in his life growing up uh muslim here in america uh from uh iranian uh parents who left iran and uh it was a conversation i i've never had before so you know we're going to talk to him in a minute sometimes these conversations

i've been having lately have just been great. I really enjoyed the Louis Theroux. I've enjoyed, I like talking to Paul Rustin. And, you know, sometimes these conversations, like same with Louis, that me and Reza, it becomes a real sort of intellectual but emotional conversation about things that are, you know, really significant uh most people and you know when i get engaged in one of these conversations it's very exciting for me not not in a way that well

i'm not necessarily learning about another person but you're sort of you know kicking around ideas that that that pressure you to engage in what those ideas really mean. And in this conversation, it was faith and religion, belief, and also talking to somebody with a profoundly different life experience for me and a life experience that I think is relevant in the world we live in now where everything is polarized and really being broken down into very black and white type of arguments, which is just never, never the case with human beings. So let's go now to me and Reza Aslan.

He's now the producer and host of Believer on CNN and Air Sundays at 10 p.m. And as I said, you can pick up his books like No God But God and the controversial Zealot, The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth. Smart guy. And my neighbor. This is me and Reza asked. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No.

But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

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Fun. You know, we used to talk to you a lot. I've talked to you before. I think we have. No, I know I have. I used to be the morning show guy on Air America, and we used to call you a lot. That's right. That's right. I mean, on Morning Sedition, we talked to you fairly frequently.

Man, that's like 10 years ago or something. More. Yeah. It's like 13 years ago. 13 years ago. Right. You were one of the go-to jihadi guys. Yeah, right.

Like, we need some information on this Al-Qaeda business. All things Islam. Let's get Reza on the line. Islam, exactly. Yeah. All right, so you've been doing this beat for a while, that beat. All right, so you've been doing this beat for a while, that beat. Not a pundit, but you're a scholar of religion, and you covered the Muslim beat.

Yeah. So you were like a guy that people knew. So you've been getting death threats since then? Yeah, I mean, look, pretty much since I've been in the public eye, I've been getting death threats. From whom? I imagine from Muslims as well as. Yeah, it runs the gambit. So it depends. Like, you know, when I when I first started and I wrote my first book about Islam, which is No God But God, I got a lot of death threats from kind of extremist Muslim groups who thought that I was, you know, heretical in the way that I was describing Islam. But I also got like a lot of death threats from extremist Jewish and Christian groups, you know, who were basically, oh, you're just an Islamic apologist, you know.

But the angle of that book was really seeking some sort of moderate dialogue. Well, it was just basically like a popular introduction to Islam in all of its diversity, but it was clearly critical of some of the more sort of fundamentalist readings, you know, and it was an attempt to bring some kind of, you know, understanding and some sense of, you know, moderate voice to it. Well, I think that like in these, and also with the new CNN show, your empathy and willingness and your diplomatic disposition, it leaves you vulnerable.

It does. And listen, I know, it's religion, right? People tend to take that kind of seriously. Do you? I mean, I take religion seriously in the sense that, you know, I value people's beliefs. I value faith. I recognize the good and the bad that religion has had on society throughout history. I understand that it is deeply a part of the human experience that like literally it is a part of our evolution as homo sapiens. You know, we can trace it all the way back to the beginning. Yeah.

To the first little etchings. Yeah. But I also recognize that it's a man-made thing. Right. And I mean man-made, like literally man-made, like people with penises. Yeah. And as a result, like any man-made thing, it's flawed. Like you're supposed to be able to pick out its critical parts.

Now. Praise it for what it's good and, you know. I imagine now, you know, in retrospect, now that you have a large menu of religions to pick from that have, you know, some have succeeded, some have failed, some have mutated, some like you talk a little bit in the show about, have gone many different directions within their religion. But I think initially the idea, if you go back to the primitive beings, that there weren't too many critics. Because they still had to explain why it was raining. Why didn't the crops grow?

You take it up with God, but don't shit on the shaman because that will only get you in trouble. That's true. I would love to kind of go back there and see the shaman debates. I don't know if there were ones. I think that the shaman was one of the original spin masters. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, it's funny that you bring that up because what's really fascinating is that religion doesn't become an institution until like really the time of the Mesopotamians. So let's say if we're being generous, like six or 7000 BC. Confidently can be traced to about 120, 150,000 years ago. Right.

And I think with a little less confidence, but I think still with some measure of confidence, can be traced even further. Maybe 200, 300, even 400,000 years ago. Well, I'm sort of fascinated not so much with religion per se, but with the need to believe. per se, but with the need to believe. Like, you know, one of the most important books, and I've talked about it a lot on this show, is The Denial of Death, Ernest Becker's book, which really blew my mind in that what he posits is that the need to believe, to feel part of something bigger than yourself on some level, to define your life and fight the existential terror of knowing our own mortality is almost genetic.

It is genetic. And in fact, when I talk about material evidence for religion, I'm talking about burial grounds. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. I mean, like what every, there's a lot of, there's a lot of debate about how far back you can go and whether like some of the, you know, we found idols that are 300, 400,000 years old. And is that expression of religion or is it just some dude who was like carving a chick

out of a rock? Exactly. Yeah. And so the Barakat Ram Venus, among all the different Venuses, the Barakat Ram Venus, which is probably the oldest, it's like this little lump of rock that somebody, a Neanderthal, somebody put, carved into the shape of a kind of a fat, naked woman. And so some scholars would be like, wow, that's the first expression, you know, the earliest

expression of religiosity. And others are like, no, that's just like Neanderthal porn. Right. You know? Yeah. So who knows? He was going on a long walk. Yeah, exactly.

He was going to be out for a few days. He needed to take that with him. Yeah, exactly. He was going to be out for a few days. He needed to take that with him. Yeah, his little masturbation totem. Literally, that's what people have said. And so technically we don't know, and either answer is good, really. But if we're talking about absolutely unanimously defined religious expression, we're talking about burial grounds, and we can go back about 120,000 years. That is the sanctity of the dead in terms of it having implications that there was a ritual

around it. So there was perhaps a belief of something that happens after. It's actually a pretty simple formula, right? I mean, there is no reason to bury a dead person. Well, you don't want it just hanging around. No, you do. You absolutely do. You just dump a dead person outside and some beast comes and takes it away. It's as simple as that. Yeah, but then you got to see your brother,

parts of him down the street, you know, like... Right. Like, I know cats. They don't eat everything. And you're going to come upon something. It's kind of jarring. But I will say that, like, the idea of putting together the effort, and this is what they would do.

This is a fairly standard practice. They would dig a hole. They would usually fill the hole with flowers or bits of metal, tools, things that the living person had or cherished. They would put the living person in there. They would often cover him in this like red ochre yeah um they would put the living person in there usually in some sort of pose you know uh facing the sun often uh then they would bury it they would put a rock there they would come and visit it they would light fires around it occasionally they would then uh disinter the body cut off the head, and then

put some plaster and some seashells on it and then put the head up. The point is that all of that indicates that at the very least, these ancient peoples thought that this wasn't it. So this argument that it all began

because of death is not a bad argument. Right. Well, yeah, the terror, the fear, the need to know that. Yeah, I mean, I can see that. But I also feel that maybe since day one, life was the one thing you knew about life that was fairly miserable. So how do you infuse hope into people? How does a leader infuse hope? Like, well, this isn't it.

You know, I know it sucks here, but this isn't it. Right. Right. I guess that's control. Yeah. It's a little bit of control. It's trying to maintain some sense of control over nature and the way that the universe functions. That has a lot to do with it.

But I think there's something more fundamental because if religion is part of human evolution, and it is, there's no question about that, then it has to adhere to the laws of evolution. In other words, there has to be an adaptive advantage for it you have arisen and for it to have continued the problem is is that that but that can be interpreted so broad I mean you know how anybody sees evolution in religious terms could either be horrendously fascistic or or the opposite well but it doesn't but that's the important thing it doesn't become fascistic until much much later.

No, I get it. But I could see, you know, even on a tribal level that, you know, if you have a couple of different gods that, you know, that's fighting words. Yes, but this is even before there are gods.

This is what I'm saying is that we're talking about the core, the origin of the religious impulse before it actually expresses itself in rituals, before it expresses itself in like identifying a God. So what is that impulse? Like, oh, this is it?

That's it. That's exactly it. The impulse is, is this it? That's the impulse. Right. So how does that, if that really is the impulse the question that i think scientists and historians and anthropologists and everybody what can't be answered is why why how does that how does that actually help you adapt and there's a bunch of answers to this right right yeah i mean

it seems pretty clear to me that like a tell me your tell me your idea and i will shoot it down oh no i mean like well belief is a powerful, you know, if you have like-minded people that believe, you know, a common idea, there's no end to what can be done. And also, there's no end to how it can, you know, build a family, build community, build things, you know, pursue common interests, you know, protection. I mean, you know, it's a way of grounding a community. So that's the oldest argument for why religion exists. Is it bad?

It goes all the way to Durkheim. It makes perfect sense because you think to yourself, well, sure. I mean, religion is about communal building. And if you are in a community that is bound together by like shared ideas and shared symbols, naturally, it's going to give you an adaptive advantage to a community that doesn't. Here's the problem. Number one, religion is by definition not inherently a communal thing. In fact, it's as much exclusive as it is inclusive. It's as much about people who don't belong as it is about people who do belong.

So for that- Well, so for instance, if you are going to say we bind ourselves together according to this symbol, whatever the symbol means. So this is even before belief, right? Right. So what you have to say is that there are those among us who accept those symbols and those who don't. And so far from actually creating a necessarily cohesive group, it can do just as much in separating a group together, creating divisions within a group as inclusion. Yeah, but there's still a couple of groups left.

I would imagine that the people that are necessarily singled out, if they're individuals, are either ostracized or made shamans. Well, so the issue here is, of course, does it have a uniquely adaptive advantage? So it doesn't, not just for that reason, but also because the truth of the matter is that while religion, you can make an argument that religion is cohesive, it is not uniquely cohesive. In fact, kinship is the single most cohesive element in ancient social groups. So in other words,

yeah, a cave, you know, the people in your cave were not there because they all shared a similar belief system. They were there because they were related in some blood way.

But then he started having parties, you know, neighbors come over. But here's the problem again, is that it sounds like it makes perfect sense. And certainly once you get to institutionalized religion, which is 100,000 years later, you can make an argument for that. That's a long time. But if you're talking about why did it arise among people in caves that that falls flat so another argument is but but but what we're talking about then though you know to to get more heady and then we'll get back down to earth is that you know you're not talking about religion in the same with the same qualities you know you're talking about belief yeah but you're also

talking about yeah but but but also like what you're considering religion, the reason they didn't hold up was at some point they realized either there were too many gods or that animal didn't do what it was supposed to do or that isn't bad luck or whatever the symbols or belief systems are, wore out, right? Well, it's a long time before we get to those symbols. I know. That's what I'm saying. So, like like to even call

them you know religions is difficult that's true because they didn't survive and by the way that's why i'm not saying religion i'm saying the religious impulse okay like the human impulse toward uh religious belief okay how did that arise and in human evolution. Well, it didn't seem to me in the show that that was really a theme. No. I mean, look, Believer is about me immersing myself in the lived experience of these different religious groups who are on the margins or on the fringes, who are misunderstood or misrepresented. A little uncomfortable in places. It's very uncomfortable in places, yeah.

Let me talk to you. Where did you come from? I was born in Iran. Like, what year? Like, you're younger than me. 72. So, it was getting shitty there. Yeah.

I mean, I lived through essentially a religious revolution. The Khomeini regime. Yeah, yeah. And you were how old? I was seven years old. And you remember that happening? Oh, I remember it very clearly. Yeah. I mean, we regime. Yeah, yeah. And you were how old? I was seven years old. And you remember that happening? Oh, I remember it very clearly. Yeah, I mean, we fled for our lives afterwards.

Now, what position was your father in that required fleeing? Well, my dad wasn't, I mean, you know, he had communist tendencies. He was a rabid atheist. An intellectual? What did he do? He did nothing, basically. He came from a fairly wealthy family, big landowning family,

a huge legacy. So those are usually once... Those are the guys to go. Yeah, once they get grounded, those are the guys that, you know, we need that land. We need that land. We need your home. That guy's a heretic. Exactly. And he felt that coming.

He felt it coming very early on. In fact, I think his idea, because he was always so anti-religious anyway. My dad was the kind of guy who always had a pocket full of Prophet Muhammad jokes that he would pull out in inappropriate times. Right. Get him killed now. Yeah. And he looked around and he thought, oh, no, no, no. No more jokes.

Yeah, I got to get the hell out of this. And I think he thought that it would just be a temporary thing. You know, I mean, we basically left everything behind and came to the States with nothing. Really? And then next thing you know, you know, Khomeini took complete control and Iran became essentially an Islamic theocracy. So what happened to the land? What happened to the money? What happened?

It's gone. It's gone. The land is gone. The money is gone. Yeah. You know, all those major estates were all broken up and then they were given to, you know, either religious foundations or these corrupt, you know, mullahs. So before, I don't, forgive me my my lack of uh knowledge about iranian

politics but you know komani followed the shah right yeah that was that was it that was the what they were fighting against i mean we went we went from an oppressive secular dictatorship to an oppressive religious dictatorship right and and for people like your dad the secular dictatorship was a little more comfortable well it was more beneficial to him sure right i mean it was it was uh you know look the, part of why it succeeded so well is because that it was in the name of the lower classes and the, you know, the poor and the people who didn't- Yeah, I'm feeling a little of that.

Yeah, exactly. Right. It kind of feels kind of familiar. I think we're all feeling a little of that. Which, by the way, is an argument that I make all the time that I think Americans in their overconfidence just simply dismiss. I grew up in a country that was one thing one day and something entirely different the next. I understand how easy that transformation takes place. Yeah. And also a lot of people grow up in authoritarian countries. Most people on the planet. authoritarian country yeah most people on the planet most of the world exactly is authoritarian and now i think a lot of americans you know even those on the left who are rabidly against

trump and this you know fascist administration even they have this confidence in the fact that hey we've been a democracy for like 240 years man that means it means it's permanent. Yeah. It's like, no, man. It's an infancy. I mean, one 9-11 style attack under this administration and we are fucked. I mean, we are, it's over. Great. It's over.

This is an administration that will, you know, go to its grave lying about the most useless shit possible. How many people showed up at its inauguration? What kind of lies do you think this administration will put forth when we are under some kind of existential attack in this country? This is an administration that, citing no evidence whatsoever,

wants to ban Muslims from the United States. Imagine if there's a terror attack. This is an administration that has repeatedly said not only are they going to keep Guantanamo Bay open, but they want to start sending American citizens to it. Fill it up. Yeah, fill it up. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

And what's funny is that they keep saying stuff like this, and we all just keep saying, well, that's a horrible thing to say, but we're not going to take it seriously. But take this man seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And okay. So when you guys flee, I'm taking it seriously. I was trying to have a good day. It's harder and harder. But when you guys flee, where do you go go we actually first ended up in oklahoma

really yeah my dad my dad had like sometime in college done like a study abroad semester in uh in uh like in enid oklahoma or something like that that's a that's pretty low budget study abroad there tell me about it and And then I think when it was time to flee and come to America, he just was like, well... That's all he knew. I think he just assumed Oklahoma was America. Yeah, it is. Which, by the way, yeah, he was absolutely right. Yeah, it's very

America. We were in America, we were in Oklahoma for a little while. It didn't take that long for us to realize that there's more to America. Right, right. This can't be it. This can't be it. That was your religious moment about America. That's right. Is this it?

It's weird. You don't hear a lot about Oklahoma. We got on the car and just headed west, and we ended up in the Bay Area, and that seemed more like it. Well, yeah. Like, oh, yeah. Well, definitely a diverse culture. So, what part of the Bay Area?

San Jose. Well, San Jose, of course course was full of uh mexican immigrants this is before you know the big uh you know silicon valley sure boom when it was just like mostly you know vineyards and things like that and it was perfect for me because this is like 1980 it's during the iran hostage crisis you know it's like a time in which everybody is you know i mean so much anti-iranian, so much anti-Muslim sentiment. I'm like seven years old trying to not be weird, surrounded by all these Mexican immigrants. So I was like, yeah, I'm Mexican.

I was like, yeah, yeah. What's up, vato? Vato, I'm Mexican. I learned how to break dance. Yeah. You could pass a little. I could pass a little bit. Did you learn Spanish?

Yeah. I mean, you have no choice. Like you just, you're surrounded right by spanish speakers so i just started speaking spanish and people would be like where are you from and i'd be like i'm from mexico orale i would just end every sentence with orale um but did you actually become conversational in spanish no hell no no you couldn't do it but what's funny is neither could these kids because they were all born in america so we all had that same, you know, sense of, uh, like dispossession. Now, what was your, what was the feeling in the house?

How many brothers and sisters you got? Uh, I had one sister who was born in, in, uh, Iran and came with us. And then one sister who was born in America. Now, so like, what, what is the, is the household during the eighties? Is your father watching tv and thankfully got out or mad or concerned about you know property i mean like what was detention in the house what did he where did he land you know in terms of occupation and things i mean my dad who just recently passed basically like died like with like a bitter you know like i think the last words on his mouth was like goddamn mullahs those goddamn mullahs yeah you know that like, I think the last words on his mouth was like, goddamn mullahs, those goddamn mullahs. You know, that's pretty standard for like that generation of Iranians who came to the

United States. I mean, it's like this profound, like, anti, you know, mullah hatred. I mean, these were the guys who like voted for George W. Bush. Right. These were the guys who voted for Trump even. I'm thinking my dad were alive right now. He would be like, I don't know that Trump, he's got some good ideas you know like muslim ban i agree you know i you know those i don't want any muslims in america and especially like you know my wife's

family like this is great like no more iranians coming to america this is fantastic your mother my mom's yeah my mom's uh my mom's uh. Was more religious? A little more religious than my dad's family. No kidding. Yeah. Well, that's an interesting dynamic, right? I mean, I had to imagine that must have fueled some of your interest. Totally.

And in fact, when we were in the States now, for my dad, it was like, this is great. I don't have to pretend I'm a Muslim anymore like I did in Iran. And for my mom, she still very much wanted us to, you know, maintain our, you know, our cultural heritage. In the house. In the house. Like, we were told very clearly, when you leave this house, you do not tell anyone that you're Iranian or you're Muslim.

Like, you just keep that shit to yourself. Well, that's interesting because that's not unlike any, you know, I don't know necessarily religious subculture that immigrated at any time where, you know, it might have taken a generation to integrate. Absolutely. And that it's interesting to me that you grew up, you know, which is something you don't hear

because the dialogue is so, you know, charged that, you know, this idea that someone like your father who is by birth a Muslim, but ultimately doesn't give a shit, exists. Exactly. Which, this is the funny thing, is I think that's, people need to realize that

that's a sort of fundamental fact of the entire world. With religion. Yeah, you know, Americans have this such skewed idea about, you know, not just everybody else, but religion in particular. Yeah. You know, like I love hearing people like Mike Huckabee or, you know, Newt Gingrich,

these like devout Christian nationalists who are like, we need to change the constitution so that it is in alignment with the Bible. We have to, you know, outlaw sodomy because, you know, God said so. And then you're like, hey, how do you feel about the Muslim Brotherhood? And they're like, theocrats! Yeah. Those people want a, you know, religious state. And it's like, dude, did you hear what you just said?

Right. You know? Well, but this is our guys. Yeah, this is our guys. Those are the bad guys. Yeah, yeah. I'm at my God god not their god yeah um but when did you start realizing this i mean you know like you know in your childhood you have this

your father who you know what do you end up doing is for a job so when he was when he was like a rich kid in iran he went and got a degree in accounting because he figured i gotta do something yeah um and then when he came to America, he's like, oh shit, I have to be an accountant now. And so he spent, you know, almost 40 miserable years as an accountant and like hated every minute of it.

But he provided and you guys grew up well. Yeah. I mean, you know, we're pretty poor, but yeah. He was miserable. He hated his job. He hated every minute of his job. Was he always running around yelling?

He did yell a lot, but it's mostly like grumbling, like, God damn it. Yeah, yeah. God damn mullahs. God damn it. Accounting. God damn numbers. But let me tell you something. This is the funny thing about him, is that, I don't know if you know Iran So, but you're- But let me tell you something. This is the funny thing about him

is that, I don't know if you know Iranians, but there is a very deeply embedded cultural tradition in Iran called Tarof. Uh-huh. And this is, it's really hard for Americans

to understand this. Yeah. The best way that I can define it is that it's like insincere deference. It's like a game of chicken that Iranians play with each other about who can lower himself the most, right? And it takes many forms. So, for instance, about picking up a check at a restaurant. Everyone argues about picking up a check at a restaurant, Like, you know, everyone argues about picking up a check restaurant,

but Iranians, like it'll become a knife fight. Yeah. You know, I mean, I've seen my dad, you know, basically wrestle people to the ground. Over wanting to pay the check? Over wanting to pay the check. Yeah. If someone compliments you of something,

if I was like, hey, Mark, that's a nice watch. Your job is to say, this watch is yours. Oh, right. It's yours. You just take it off and you just hand it over. Is that that a humility thing what is that it's fake humility oh the problem is is that everyone in iran because again this is it's like the foundation of what it means to be iranian yeah is this kind of fake deference thing yeah um everyone in iran knows this and it's a game that we all play we don't even take it all that seriously. Right. You know, like I went to Iran once and I was negotiating over some trinket that I wanted

to buy. And like, I'm negotiating for like 10 minutes and it's like, you know, 50 cents. No, 40 cents. No, 47 cents, 42 cents. Finally, we settle on it. And I'm like, okay, fine, 45 cents. And then the guy says, oh, I can't take your money. No, I can't. I can't. I can't do that. Now, while he's saying, I can't take your money, he's filling out the receipt. Right. You know? Yeah. And while I'm saying, no, I insist, I insist, I'm handing over the money.

Yeah. It's just a game. Yeah. Here's the problem. Americans don't know how to play the game. Yeah. So, what happens all the time, and every Iranian has a story like this, is that Iranians come to America

they instinctively play the tarof game yeah and the American guy doesn't play along so it's like hey that's a nice watch oh this watch it's yours oh thanks man yeah take the watch so my dad you know he's an accountant he starts getting clients right the clients come in he does all the work for them and they say uh you know how much do I owe you? And my dad instinctively says, nothing. I can't take your money. And the client goes, holy shit, thanks, man. Yeah, yeah.

So we would never get paid. He kept doing it? He kept doing it. See, I mean, I guess that's one of the arguments to integrate fully into the culture. Integrate quickly. You know, he would occasionally accept gifts. Like I'd come home and there'd be a vacuum cleaner and I'd be like, what's that?

You know, like, oh, my client gave me a vacuum. He must have been the most popular accountant in San Jose. Oh, you're kidding me. Yeah, especially in the immigrant community. You know, he was like- With Mexicans or- Yeah, like Mexicans and Filipinos and, you know, everybody loved my dad.

No Iranians because they know they'd have to pay exactly the Iranians exactly that they never worked with other Iranians so like when do you like so but you are brought up with with some Quran education Quran no no literally we came to America and it was like we had divorced ourselves from like it was like we stripped our house clean of any signs of islam out of fear or desire out of fear well from my dad's point it was like ha ha freedom i don't have to keep pretending yeah uh but you know from my mom's point it was very much an issue of safety right like she would sometimes, but like quietly and in the corner. Yeah. No one was looking.

So she held on to it. She holds on to it to this day. Right. It's been like 40 years and I swear to God, to this day. Yeah. Like if I'm on CNN,

Yeah. you know, saying something about, you know, Trump, my mom will call me afterwards and be like, what are you doing? Keep your mouth shut.

They're going to take you away. Yeah. And I'm like, mom, that's like not a thing. Not yet. Yeah. But that's the thing. I used to be able to say confidently, mom, this isn't Iran. That's not what happens.

Nowadays, I'm not so sure, actually. You know, I think she's got a point. But I think it's interesting that, you know, what seems to temper your exploration of religion is this idea that you're not, I don't think, I think you're empathetic to the individuals involved, yet you understand the potential, you know, danger. Yes. So, you know, and it seems to come primarily from the balance of your childhood that, you know, there are two ways, like there is the birthright of religion and you sort of passively say yeah i'm muslim yeah i'm jewish i'm catholic and you know what you don't

think like you know catholics uh and and a lot of jews are sort of like yeah but i don't you know i don't go anywhere i went when i was a kid i went but for some reason a lot of people don't think muslims ever say that i know and and you know obviously when I just by talking to you now, of course, you know, with when there's a billion, however many Muslims, they can't all be. I mean, it's so logical, right? Like, no, nobody in their right mind thinks that every like all billion and a half Christians think the same way. But that's a human thing. That is the human that that is the sort of weird. It's tribalism. this sort of weird it's tribalism it's tribalism right but there's this like this idea that you know you got a group of people you know human beings you know the percentages of the people that are going to be you know compulsively fanatical is very small to the people that

are like all right you know exactly those guys and loud yeah right but but just it's just human nature to be like i got a life well yeah i'm not gonna pray nine times a day i know But it's just human nature to be like, I got a life. I'm not going to pray nine times a day. I know, but it's so funny. It's so fascinating too because of that whole argument because you hear all the time like, how come we don't hear from moderate Muslims? Because we're in the fucking grocery store. Like, what do you want?

You know, how come when like Robert Deere shot up a Planned Parenthood last year, I didn't hear a bunch of Christians like on TV being like, that's not really Christianity. Why? Because they were minding their own damn business. Yeah. You know, and it's the same, it's the same thing for people of all faiths.

Yeah. And listen, I am, I am constantly being assailed by extreme adherence to religions, you know, whether it's like radical Hindus who hate me because of believer or radical Muslims who hate me because of, you know, whatever. I get so many death threats from radical Christians. Actually, this is a absolutely absolute truth. The worst that I get it from the worst sort of threats and anger and just by numbers and sheer volume is from radical atheists. They're the ones that I'm like most often like, Jesus. Why, because you're too sympathetic? Yeah, that I even take religion seriously at all, you know,

or I take belief seriously at all. But, you know, there is an element to the show that, you know, I think you're approaching these these um these subjects in earnest and in a vulnerable way that you know where where are you with belief what did so you you were passive as a muslim and you just remain that way your whole life no i mean look you said it perfectly before is that that personal experience of seeing the power that religion has to do being run out of your tremendous yeah to do tremendous good and bad yeah you know i mean that's the important thing right i mean the same christianity that gave us a civil rights movement gave us trump

yeah okay so i get it yeah um it can be good or bad depending on how it's used how the people are guided how the people are led, how the belief is exploited. And expressed. And expressed. And what level of desperation is driving their intent. That fascinated me even as a little kid. Because of the fanatic. Yeah.

But I never had an opportunity to actually do anything about it because, again, like my household was like, no more religion in this house. When I was in high school, I had some friends who went to this evangelical youth group and I went with them and I heard the gospel story and I was like, whoa, this is the most amazing thing I've ever heard in my entire life. Like, wait, hold on, hold on, hold on. The God of heaven and earth came down in the form of a baby and then like grew up and died for our sins. And on all we got to do is believe in him and we go to heaven. That's the greatest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.

And also- In high school. In high school. Wow. You were lost. I was. Well, but also the other thing too is that, and you know, I didn't recognize this at the time. I understand it much more today, but that was my, like, you know, that was my America ID card, right? Like what Jesus is your entry card into America. Like once you accept Jesus in your heart, your skin color doesn't matter anymore.

Your ethnicity doesn't matter anymore. Like the accent you speak with doesn't matter anymore. Your ethnicity doesn't matter anymore. Like the accent you speak with doesn't matter. So you're in high school and you go this thing and you're surrounded by a lot of different types of people. No, just white people. Just white people. But they were sort of like, well, what do you want to? They were like, do you want to accept Jesus into your heart

and be one of us? And I was like, hell yes, I do, I do. And you believed. Yeah, and I don't want to make it sound like it was cynical because again, I mean, i was like hell yes i do i do and you believed yeah and i don't want to make it sound like it was cynical because again i mean i was like 15 i didn't understand no but even now you know as a person who is vulnerable and as a person who you know is you know non-religious in any way uh you know but still fraught with you know fear and a a certain lack of emotional and spiritual stability. And somebody who intellectually understands how that is provided by these systems.

I still resist it because I think as you get older, your capacity for suspending your disbelief diminishes. Unless shit gets real bad. Yeah. your disbelief diminishes unless shit gets real bad. Yeah. So I guess, you know, my question is, what was it essentially in talking about that religious moment or that question, that primal question in that moment, you as that kid, you know, outside of, you know,

backloading, becoming American, what was it in you that bought it? You know, even in these shows, I see that you're still vulnerable to it, yet you have a sort of boundary, but you still allow yourself to immerse yourself and experience the feelings. But, you know, in the show, what became clear to me after watching four or five of them was that, all right, you're open to it and you're engaging in it and you're saying, yeah, that felt this way or this felt that way. But you're not going to, you know, midway through the series go like, yeah, I'm going to just stay with the voodoo people.

The commitment. It's really, you're bringing up something so, so good right now. I've never actually made this connection before. It's like, I feel like I should pay you for like therapy. But yeah, there was that feeling of belonging going back to the purpose of religion right with the christian thing yeah there was that feeling it's like wow i belong like nobody questions me anymore like i am one of you now right because like jesus is your like welcome to america card right but there was also i think that experience was interesting because it taught me to value faith,

which I still do. And hopefully in the show, you get that. You get that I value these people's faiths. I'm not there. Yeah, to a fault almost. Some people would say, like, I'm totally open to your faith. I may think it's a little bit bizarre,

but I'm going to be open to it. I'm not going to come to you with judgment. Right, right, okay, right. At the same time though, it wasn't long in my sort of Christian, and this was, I should say, a very conservative evangelical Christian group. It wasn't long before they were like, also gays are going to hell. And also the Bible says you can't have sex. And also, and I was like, wait, what? And I'm the kind of guy, and I've always been this guy, where like, I'm not going to just take your word for it.

So I would go home and I would open up the Bible and I'd be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, where does it say you're not supposed to have sex before marriage? Because it literally, literally does not say that anywhere from Genesis to Revelation. Wait, where does it say that? How could it have said that for them to populate the world like that?

All those people, they lived 900 years and they had 200 kids. Come on, man. You know, all this stuff that I was told that the Bible says, I would go in and I'd be like, wait, it doesn't say that. And then I would go back to church and I'd be like, excuse me. The Iranian's here. The brown guy has a question in the back. It doesn't actually say that.

Yeah. And what I thought what would happen is a conversation. Right. And instead they would sort of lay hands on me and try to kind of remove the doubt. And I was like, this shit is not, this is not working for me. But the irony is at the same time,

I valued the faith, but started becoming critical of religion. Right, right. That has been essentially my, you know, that's my calling card, you know, where I'm like, I understand religion is something made by human beings. I understand the flaws of it. I get the institutional aspects of it, the way that it can be, you know, towards good and to bad.

Okay. But I also value that people have faith, that they believe these things. Yeah, I know, but faith, it seems like you can separate that. Faith in and of itself doesn't require belief on some level. So, I mean, there is a bit of a chasm there. I don't know. You respect faith. I guess I actually don't think of them all that separately.

Like, in other words, I don't think, for instance, you know, I get a lot of people, you know, I have referred to atheism as a belief system and I get a lot of shit for that. Well, I've done that too, that there's a dogma to it. There's absolutely a dogma to it. I mean, it's predicated upon certain

like postulates and hypotheses about the nature of the universe, much of which is impossible to prove. And yet a great amount of it, you know, is sort of taken in this sort of gospel way. Well, I mean, well, the arguments there are really about reason. And there is a, I don't want to say a cynicism to it, but there is a need to hold a line at reason. And I couldn't agree more. Right.

But I think it's incorrect to say that religious belief is by definition irrational or unreasonable. Yes, a lot of it is, but it need not be. Yeah, but I mean, but religious belief, especially in the culture we live in now and seeing how, you know, mutated and malignant it can become where, you know, there's something about the American way and I think there's something about the way of people

that, you know, the nature of hucksterism requires belief. So the nature of sales requires belief that to be sold on something is probably just as ancient as the organized religions. So it becomes this weird thing that to criticize belief in and of itself is to criticize, you know, oddly capitalism. Well, you said it perfectly in that there isn't anything unique about religious belief that sets it apart from these other forms of belief that you're talking about? Other than a transcendent faith. Well, see, but that's the thing is that people will say, oh, but religious belief, you know, carries with it a certain amount of absolutism.

Right. And it's like, well, yes, so does patriotism and nationalism. Yeah. You know, I mean, America, right or wrong. Right. You know, I mean, America right or wrong, right? You know, love it or leave it. You know, that kind of devout belief in American exceptionalism is as often absurdly applied as the most evangelical versions or fundamentalist versions of religion. But the payoff is to be part of something that transcends your own life that transcends your own identity that's right that that gives you

but also like you're like you know i'm willing to die for this so whether be it patriotism or or jesus whatever or jesus or your race or ethnicity then no one's gonna die for toyota you know like you know like i'm gonna i mean they may pay lip service to it being the best car, but it's like, I'll go to my grave. And the weird thing is, even talking just improvisationally about this, is that when planned obsolescence became part of the capitalist model, a sort of an exception to the faith. Of capitalism, yeah. Right? You're sort of like, of course it broke. You've got to buy a new one.

There's no – it's very rare that you can find something like, these are going to last a lifetime. That shit's over. No. So I think that probably tempers certainly the American faith. But by the argument that you're making yeah it shows exactly the vacuousness of this position that oh well then if we just get rid of religion then you know we'll we'll be more peaceful but that's the thing that

that doesn't make any sense well it doesn't make any sense primarily because you know and i've noticed this more now is that by and large most people are not you know in the habit of critical thinking now like if you could create you know and i imagine this was some of the answer this was some of the the answers that communism was trying to provide on some level is that you know this is about you know people you know so you know in order for what you're saying that this rational almost cynical you know belief people, you know, so, you know, in order for what you're saying, that this rational, almost cynical, you know, belief system to be universal, you know, would require people accept that they're going to die, accept their lot in life, accept personal sort of responsibility

for their lot in life, and the ability to do something about it in a proactive way, that a lot of that stuff is, there are too many leaps for most people. It's like, why, we just want to be taken care of, which I also think is the appeal of authoritarianism it's like it may not be democratic but at least this guy you know has some uh you know the the he has the narrow-minded ability to is an answer yeah an answer yeah right what you said about communism is perfect like how quickly did communism go from a philosophy to a rigid fundamentalist ideology that was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people, right? Again, look at the 20th century, right? By far, by far the most bestial century in human existence.

The deaths of hundreds of millions of people in the name of religion? No. In the name of nationalism, in the name of socialism, in the name of communism, in the name of Marxism and Maoism and Stalinism. And capitalism. Capitalism. These are not religious movements. That's usually disguised, though. Yeah.

Capitalism is behind about four of them. Of course, yeah. But these are in many ways actually devoutly secularist ideologies. The fact of the matter is that religion, like every ideology, is dependent on the individual and the community. You can use it for good. You can use it for bad. The problem is that human beings, because we are tribal, because we are want towards violence, because we are all about in groups and out groups, who is us, who is not us. We'll use God to kill each other. We'll use the flag to kill each other.

Right, but you forgot about desperate and vulnerable and terrified. Yeah, terrified. Fear, absolutely. So when I say, look, I'm going to go around the world and I'm going to introduce you to these religions that may seem weird to you at first. I'm going to go around the world and I'm going to introduce you to these religions that may seem weird to you at first. I'm going to immerse myself in them and I'm going to show you that there are beliefs behind these religions that you actually agree with. Sure.

That you connect with. in defense of that dialogue, that there has to be, these things are almost eternal checks and balances towards a globalized authoritarian existence. That dialogue has to happen. There's going to be pushback on both sides, but not unlike, I used to do a joke about ultra-Orthodox Jews at the wall, praying in Israel around the clock.

In my mind, it's like, they have to be there for the rest of us, or if they one day go, we're done, what happens to it? You know what I mean? It's not a belief in them or anything else, but these extremes afford the moderation, that there has to be something to push against. Yeah, but I think that that push is happening from within these religious communities. You know, and I think that's what gets missed a lot, that people just assume that the extremes and the moderates or the progressives are all essentially in the same camp.

And that's like saying that, you know, well, we're all Americans, so we all have to support the president. Yeah. Fuck that. No. Yeah. The president is destroying the country. And he may say he's doing it because he is patriotic and he loves the flag. I'm patriotic.

I love the flag. Yeah. And for that reason, I'm going to do everything I can to get rid of this guy. Yeah. Well, no, absolutely. Absolutely. He loves the flag. I'm patriotic. I love the flag. And for that reason, I'm going to do everything I can to get rid of this guy. Yeah. Well, no, absolutely. So when you talk like, okay, so once you start pushing back at evangelicals as a teenager, what is your journey?

Because part of the desire to study what you studied and then watching you on this show you know, with an open mind and an open heart to a certain degree, is that, you know, I have to assume intellectually the drive to study religions or religion in general is some sort of quest for answers, but also a quest for your own control. Yeah. for your own control. Yeah. Well, so pushing back against evangelical Christianity made me really, really good at religion. So I went to college because I wanted to be a writer.

Yeah. And I was like, you know, well, I'm going to take a religion class because it seems interesting. And I realized I like it and I'm really good at this. But the more I started studying the religions of the world, the more it became impossible to take any one of these religions all that seriously anymore. For the simple fact that what we're talking about

is I suddenly realized, you know, they're basically just different languages for the same exact statement. Right, and that's something you pull through the series. Yeah, exactly. And so I wanted a language for myself. Christianity wasn't going to do it anymore. The symbols and metaphors of it had just kind of failed for me. And I wanted something else.

Why don't you go with the Baha'is? I love the Baha'is. Absolutely love the Baha'is. But I was encouraged by some of my professors to be like, well, why don't you go back to the faith that you grew up in? And I was like, I don't know anything about it. I know nothing about Islam at all. And so they were like, here are some books.

Read about it. These are professors. Yeah, these are my professors. Priests, actually. I went to Santa Clara University, a Jesuit college. So these are like priests who were like, go back to being a Muslim. Yeah, the Jesuits are quite different than the other Catholics. But anyway, and I started reading up, yeah the Jesuits are quite different than you know the other Catholics but anyway

and I started reading up and I started realizing that this was the language that I preferred these were the metaphors that I preferred just because of the personal history or that they fell into place it was really like an intellectual thing it was like the way in which

God and creator and the relationship between the creator and creation and humanity's place in the world, the way that it's described, the language and metaphors, the symbols used to talk about this thing, you know, called life rang true to me in a way that the language of Christianity that I had been sort of reared in up to that point didn't anymore. And by the way, this goes back to how we started this conversation because what I discovered very quickly

is that there's a massive difference between religion and faith. Faith, it's mysterious, it's ineffable, it's individual, it's fundamentally a choice. It's as simple as that. There isn't any mystery to it. You either believe that there is something beyond the material world or you don't. No one can prove or disprove it. You just choose to believe it.

If you choose to believe it, then you have to ask yourself, well, do you want to do something about it? Do you want to do something about it do you want to experience well see i think that that particular uh valve in the human mind is really what atheists are are saying like you you know what i mean like don't that choice is not a choice and i think the religious people would say the same thing that's my point you know if you are a prone to that that you know that that you know is a a fundamentally exploitable vulnerability it can be it can be right yeah so like so can materialism has communism no i get that i get that but that's where you start to find the hierarchy that's where like even in your first show that that that hindu caste system that

has existed for centuries you know exists because the people that are the untouchables you know that is it becomes a birthright so that vulnerability of their you know their uh eternal lot generationally you know doesn't doesn't come up for question, right? Yes. Maybe a few of them do, but the rest of them are like, just shut up and put the log on the fire, right? Right, right. So what becomes really tricky about that and the way the power structures of religions work

and how they're used is essentially that vulnerability and any individual's responsibility to what they are going to be used for. Yeah. The way in which faith can be manipulated by religion for often bad things, sometimes good things, but often bad things. And co-opted by larger systems to do bidding. Like the Republican Party. Sure.

Exactly. Or the social structure in India. Right. Many Hindus would be like, the caste system, that's not a religious thing. That's just some politically minded form of control. I didn't know about it until I watched your show. Really? Yeah.

And some people would say that. And some Hindus would say, no, this is a deeply religious thing. It's part of who we are. Who's right? Neither. But inescapable karma. What kind part of who we are. Who's right? Neither. But inescapable karma. What kind of fucking sentence is that to put on somebody? Yeah, exactly.

That, you know, just like, well, you were born into this. You know, your people have been polluted forever, which is horrible, inescapable karma. And because of your job, you can't get out of it. You are here to burn the bodies. When Marx said that religion is the opiate of the people, he was right. What he was wrong about is so is communism, so is nationalism, so is socialism. All of those things, all of those ideologies are means of controlling populations for the betterment of the powerful and the wealthy. of the powerful and the wealthy. But does that, therefore, by definition, devalue or delegitimize faith? And I say, no, why would it? Because, again, if faith is all about, which I really do

believe that it is, a simple choice about how you think of yourself in the universe whether you think that this is it or whether you think that no there is something beyond this okay well i think that is the crux of of sort of like my experience watching these things and watching you engage with these people is that you know when you say that it is a personal thing. So that means that in the moments that you choose to use in the show when you interview certain people in these different situations, that what I found is that even the ones that are prophets or respected leaders, that because you approach them with an open mind and an open heart, that their vulnerability as humans becomes almost difficult to take.

Yeah. I mean, when I was in Hawaii with that doomsday group. Yeah. And I don't mean difficult to take and that I'm against it, but it's just sort of like I can see through this. Yeah. Well, in fact, with this prophet, Jesus, with a Z that I- The doomsday cult in Hawaii.

Yeah, in Hawaii. The first time I meet him, he's just this crazy, he's running around. I mean, most of that we couldn't never air because it was all about these crazy, sexually explicit things. He was talking about the crazy sexually explicit things. He was talking about the end of the world and about waking up covered in cum. And it was all this insane stuff. And the next time I met him, like four days later, I sat him down and I was like, don't do that again. Just talk to me like a human being.

And no matter what you think about him. Well, part of it, I'm sure in his mind is like, oh, you don't want the show? You don't want the show. Yeah. Like literally. And no matter what you think about him. Well, part of it, I'm sure in his mind is like, oh, you don't want the show. You don't want the show. That's yeah. He like literally. And what was amazing about that experience is, again, no matter what you think about him, you might think he's crazy. You might think he is getting messages from the God. I personally don't think that there's a difference between those two things.

Of course there is a lot. There may not be a difference between those two things. a difference between those two things but there's certainly a difference between a megalomaniacal person who wants to lead a bunch of other vulnerable people in this existence that he's you know deemed utopian uh and you know like what i felt that watching that is like this could go bad at any second it could go bad at any second and i knew exactly what it was there's like you know kind of like um you know wayward uh fragile people that are looking for themselves they're looking for something and they heard about this place. You know, it's not a hostel, but you can hang out there.

Maybe, you know. Hang out there, be part of this group. Yeah, yeah. You know, free love. The commune. Right, right, right. Yeah, those don't end well generally. Sustainability and also an answer to the end.

An answer to the end, right. But the whole sort of enviro-eco-friendly angle of it. Yep. And your comparison to Manson was, you know, I thought good. An answer to the end, right, but the whole sort of enviro-eco-friendly angle of it. Yep. And your comparison to Manson was, you know, I thought good. But, like, you know, what I found in watching that one in particular was, like, you know, this guy has got a good game going. And it's a small game.

And it's enough for him. And it seems to be enough for the people that are around him. But, like, it's never going to be thousands of people. No. But tell me you were not at least a little bit intrigued in that second conversation when he was like, I don't know, maybe I'm crazy. I think I feel like I'm right. Maybe I'm not. It's so stressful.

Like I'm barely eating anymore. I don't even have insurance. Like what if one of my disciples breaks a leg? What am I going to do? Like, just hearing him talk like a person for a minute was, I think, extraordinary. Well, I think that what's interesting that you said that wasn't on the show, and how much he uses the word fuck and stuff, is that that's a device. You know, to talk about cum and to talk about fucking and to talk about a lot of stuff to a bunch of kids who God knows how they grew up. A lot of them from very strict religious families.

Exactly. So you got some guy, you know, talking about cum and fucking. It's like, what's happening? And it's religion. Right. It's mind blowing. So you're like, yeah, you know. There was definitely, listen, I met a lot of his followers and they all pretty much fell into that same category.

Lost, hippie-ish, wayward, disaffected with society. Looking for somebody to- Grew up in a very strict religious family. If not abusive, I imagine. And then came to Hawaii and utopia. And what I'm trying to do is basically train the mind of the viewer in a sneaky way, right? I'm going to entertain you. Yeah, it's exotic. Yeah, it's sensational. Yeah, it's beautiful locations. And yeah, I'm doing crazy shit, you know. But hopefully,

what happens is that you watch enough of these episodes and you start to get what's happening here, which is precisely what you say is that, oh, there's, you know, there are extreme versions and there are moderate versions. And underneath all of this stuff is a sentiment that I find really familiar. Yeah, but also- Maybe I have more in common with these people than I thought. Well, that's the thing that struck me is that like even the ones I watched were the Hindu one, and then I watched the Doomsday one, and I watched the Voodoo one, and I watched the Scientology one i

mean that was one of the most fascinating what's funny because i just talked to louis thoreau about oh really about his doc yeah um this is you know this is different because this is not no no your angle was good yeah because what i wanted to do i look everybody in america has an opinion on scientology right okay but few of us know what Scientology actually is. I actually have the same opinion you do. You know, and it's that... It's no weirder than any other religion? That, and it's a young religion. And, you know, like, I guess the most popular modern American religion to really take was

Mormonism. So, right? Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, that, yeah, in certain ways that There are tactics and procedures within Scientology that seem particularly inhumane and totalitarian. And the nature of Miscavige and where he's going with the church and whatever, I think, is worthy of scrutiny and brutal criticism. But the idea of it not being a religion is ridiculous. And by the way, that's a perfect example of this divide between religion and faith. So the Scientologists that we interview and hang out with,

these are devout Scientologists. They are devout believers in the religion. They zealously follow Elrond Hubbard. The ones who have separated from the church in order to honor Hubbard's original plan. Exactly. So they call themselves reformists. Yeah. They're like the Protestants of Scientology.

Yeah. They feel like the problem with the church is that it's been corrupted and bastardized after the death of L. Ron Hubbard. Yeah. They loathe Miscavige. They agree. They would agree with Theroux. They would agree with Leah Remini.

All the stuff that people, you know, anti-Scientologists say about the church. These guys are like, yeah, that's absolutely true. But that's the church, not the faith. And, you know, what I wanted to do was, first of all, tell people that that's a thing. Like, I think people are always freaked out, like, wait, wait, wait, there are Scientologists who follow the religion, but not the church? Well, the thing is, is that most of the the time the way it's captured in in conversations and i can't you know say this across the board but by ex-scientologists people who won out is that you know then they were you know subject to being victimized by

you know fascistic uh uh tactics to to stifle them and to shut them up these guys would say the same thing i mean the the what we always hear about is from the church and from former Scientologists, you know, anti-Scientologists. This is the first time we hear from Scientologists who don't follow the church. And there are half a dozen of these sects. Now, the church would say they're not really Scientologists. They don't really count.

You know, they call them repressor. They call them squirrels. They call them squirrels. They call them squirrels. But what's the other one? The bad person? The negative person? The SP, suppressive person. Yeah.

And so, you know, the church is very angry about this show, but they don't really know how to formulate their anger. See, they know, the church knows how to respond to Louis. They know how to respond to Leah Remini. And the people who want out. But they don't know how to respond to people saying like, no, we're really doing it. They don't know how to respond to a show that's like, no, you actually are a religion. I take you seriously as a religion. It's a real

thing. But here's the thing about religions is that they break apart. And so this is a reformation. and they're like nope there's no reformation there's nothing oh we are the only people who can say who is and who is not every church every religion has said that and my argument is yeah that makes you a religion you saying that legitimizes you as a religion so they're like they're completely baffled they're like well we kind of hate you but we also have you heard from appreciate it yeah they're they're

you know you've heard from from people within the church but not on an official level or on an official level i have been inundated ever since the the commercials have come and the general tone is what it's again the the tone is somewhat confused you know at the same time it's like they recognize that the very fact that this show exists it legitimizes them as a religion which is what they've always wanted like you know we are a religion we're a real religion right but at the same time the fact that the focus of the show is not on the church but on these breakaway sects. Yeah. Purists. Yeah.

And the point of it is, is that look what's happening. Like this, this happened, you know, 500 years ago in the Catholic church, right? People were like, the church is corrupt. It's inept. And it's, it's taken away Jesus's true teachings. We are the true Christians. That's exactly what these reformist Scientologists say. And the church's argument is the Church of Scientology's argument

is the exact same argument that the Vatican made, which is, no, no, no, no, no, no. Only we can say who is a Scientologist. By definition, if you leave us, you are not a Scientologist anymore. Here's the fascinating thing, just from like a purely intellectual way. The difference between the Vatican 500 years ago

and the Church of Scientology today is that the Church of Scientology has trademarked Scientology. And so they've copyrighted this material. So the Vatican could say, oh, you don't get salvation anymore. But the Vatican couldn't say like, we'll sue you if you keep reading the Bible.

Yeah. Right. If only they knew. Right. Whereas the Church of Scientology is basically like, we will sue you if you keep saying you're a Scientologist. That is something funny about what we talked about before, is the nature of business,

is that the ritualistic depth of the Catholic Church knew that they had most people terrified. Right, right, exactly. Yeah. They're in charge of salvation. Yeah, you know, and most people bought it. Yeah. But now it's sort of like-

Now it's financial ruin. That's right. Yeah. Now we'll take you to court. Exactly. Well, it's a business driven, I don't think the Scientologists have ever, you know, in any logical way, you know, been able to say that the business element of Scientology

has got to be about 80% of it, even to people that know that are in it. Yeah. In fact, I say this all the time. I say it's like the perfect amalgamation of religion and capitalism, right? That's right. Salvation, however you define it in the church

of scientology costs money yeah it just does and people were like well but you give tithes to a church right but your salvation doesn't depend on the on the tithe the other thing that i found interesting is just that you know by immersing yourself in these things and actually documenting your immediate experience with the ecstatic message of any of these different things you were involved with by being audited and by engaging in that process, by drinking the Ganges and by allowing yourself to be in the circle with Jesus with the Z, and being part of the voodoo ceremony and coming out of it after you were in that waterfall, I'm still shaking and whatever, that you opened yourself up.

The thing that really struck me and I brought up before was that, all right, you felt the impact of the recruiting tool. Oh, yeah. And you understood that I am half into an ecstatic state, i i could see that if i do this three more times you know that who knows but uh but that is the difference in like in something like new age spirituality you know which draws from any particular religious disposition or or uh ritual to sort of you of create that feeling over and over again without the commitment of an organized church

that there is sort of like, there's something very telling about that. All those things that you experienced, those feelings may have been real, but in order to really serve or be served by the religion, the commitment or the faith is required.

So, you know, to me, it was very interesting about you and about most people who consider them spiritual on any spectrum of the sort of new age or hippie experience. It is separating ritual from larger systems of belief to feel that relief that you may have felt. And I'm not saying that's bad or good, but it doesn't do the same thing. It doesn't do the same thing because, yeah, in the end, well, this is an argument that people have in the religious studies all the time, which is like, can you have religion without community? I mean, is it all about community? I mean, can you say, I'm religious, but I don't ever go to any church. I don't hang out with anybody else who shares my religion. You know, I would say yes, because I'm much more interested in individual faith than I am in communal religion.

But yeah, this whole idea of belonging and in-group and the rules and the institution and that these are the things that set us apart from everybody else, you know. Whether it's the other church or the other cave. Right. you know, whether it's the other church or the other cave. Right. All of those things I think are deeply a part of that fundamental experience of what it means to say, I'm religious. Right. The tribal thing.

It goes back to that. Yeah. Well, it was great talking to you, buddy. Thank you, Mark. I really enjoyed this. Thanks, man. Take care. There you go.

That was, um, I felt like, you know, I felt like I worked out on that conversation. And then I ran into him a couple days later down the street. So now that I know what he looks like, perhaps we'll be hanging out down at the coffee shop. I will be

at the Fox Theater in Oakland tomorrow night, Friday, March 24th. I'll be at the Moore in Seattle on Saturday, March 25th, and at the Vogue in Vancouver on Sunday. You can go to wtfpod.com to check upcoming dates. I'll be in Austin, Texas next week. And there's more dates there on the site.

Oh, do I have time to play? Yeah, okay. Thank you. Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now.

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