WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 818 - Marc Mulcahy / Phil Elverum

Episode Date: June 7, 2017

It's a doubleheader of singer-songwriters who are separated by several years but tied together by similar tragedies that reshaped their lives and their art. First, Phil Elverum of The Microphones and Mount Eerie tells Marc why he urgently needed to write his new album. Then Marc Mulcahy talks about the stops on his journey, from his work with Miracle Legion to finding mainstream recognition as part of the show The Adventures of Pete and Pete to realigning everything through his solo work. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucksters? What the fuck publicans? The few of you out there how's it going what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast what the fuckocrats

all right just evening it up i am back i am back at the cat ranch back in the hills of highland park where i belong in my slowly crumbling casa casa crumble. I don't know what that means. So today on the show, Phil Elverum and Mark Mulcahy, two different musicians, songwriters. I didn't know much about either of them. This is the truth. This is how this worked. Phil sent me his record and a bunch of other ones.

Now, I didn't know of him. I did not know of his former manifestation, the microphones. I didn't know about Mount Erie. I didn't know anything about him. My partner, I guess that's the word I'm going to try out, Sarah, knew of the microphones. And there was a period of music there that I just was not, I was too old or too something.

I just didn't, somewhere between 2002 and 2012, I just missed a lot of stuff. Wasn't as engaged. But she knew of the microphones. And there was a world of that type of lo-fi kind of experimental music around. But I didn't know of him. And I got this record with a nice personal note. And I listened to it, his new record, which is called, it's released under the name Mount Eerie.

It's called A Crow Looked at Me. It's available now. And it was just one of those moments where right out of the gate the tone and the sound and the words and his voice just kind of struck me in a very real way in a very deep place and i listened to it and it was a devastating record and uh you know i invited him on the show to talk about this devastating record because the backstory around the record is is devastating but but there was something you know beautiful and poetic as as dark as it might have seemed or might seem in subject matter it was beautifully human and uh and i was interested in it and that and that was just a record that was sent to me mark mulcahy as well like i didn't know a lot about miracle legion i wasn't a fan or had no real knowledge

of him but i was sent some of his one of his solo records and i played it and i was like this is this is a real dude this is a real guy this is there's some depth to this this guy's been around and he's got and he's got some depth here. And I like the music. And I became sort of a fan of his from his solo work. And that was a long time ago now. It was over a year. And finally, it sort of came around that Mark was around. And I got him in here to talk to these guys.

These guys are, I would say, veterans to a certain degree. Certainly, Mulcahy's been around a while. And Phil is not that old. But he's certainly been around a while. But I didn't know anything about them. But it was all new to me. These were two instances where the music came to me and moved me a certain way. And I'm happy to be open to that. And I talk about this a lot. I'm at this juncture in my life, this age

where my life is what it is, whether I've done it intentionally or not. I am 53 years old, childless, divorced. I'm okay with money. And now I've got a little time. And it's sort of like, what moves me, what moves me? What brings me joy? What, you know, what engages me? What are my responsibilities to myself and others, uh, at this point in my life and how the fuck do I have a good time? And I'm realizing that expectations are sometimes a little, uh, you know, you gotta be careful of them. are sometimes a little, you know, you got to be careful of them. Be careful of those expectations, the good ones and the bad ones.

You can always expect an end because that's inevitable. But I don't know, you got to temper that shit. So I do engage with music and when it moves me, I'm happy about it. And I was glad I could talk to these guys. There's some heavy stuff in today's show. I'm not going to deny that. Phil Elverum is here. His most recent album released under the name Mount Erie is called A Crow Looked At Me. It's about some very difficult and heavy stuff.

It's about grief. It is an active artistic expression of grief. It's available now wherever you get music. And this is me and Phil having a conversation. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that.

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how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. station i you know you send me your records the microphones record and the mount erie records and then the new record which is under mount erie it is but it kind of is its own thing but yeah it's mount erie um and i get a lot of stuff that looks like stuff. And he wrote me this very nice letter.

And the subject matter of the record is obviously devastating. But I had no idea about the microphones. And I didn't know anything about it. So I put the record on. And I was very taken with the new record immediately, and that doesn't always happen. And then I sort of asked around to my girlfriend in particular who was a Microphones fan,

and you were part of this world of music that I kind of missed somehow, that there was a period there in the 90s, she was dating Devendra. Okay. And there seemed to be this Bay Area kind of lo-fi, poetic, I don't know how you would classify the music. I avoid having to. But you sort of fit into that spectrum a little bit, right? I suppose, yeah. I mean, I've been doing it for 20 years, so maybe I fit in at different spectrums, different

spectrums, different points in different spectrums. But there was a period there where the microphones, which was primarily you? It's just me. Yeah, it's all just me. It's Mount Erie, the microphones, it's all just me. Yeah. Occasionally I have collaborators, but I think of myself more as a descendant of the Pacific Northwest stuff, grunge, whatever.

Oh, really? Which is, I'm younger than that. I'm younger than Nirvana. No, of course, but maybe you grew up with it. I grew up with it. That was my portal into this stuff. Really? Oh, for sure.

Yeah. Where'd you live? Anacortes, Washington. How far is that from Seattle? Like two hours, a little less than two hours. Really? Oh, for sure, yeah. Where'd you live? Anacortes, Washington. How far is that from Seattle? Like two hours, a little less than two hours. Northwest? North.

Anacortes is in the San Juan Islands. So yeah, almost in Canada. Very beautiful. I love that. That's my favorite part of the country is the Pacific Northwest. Me too. The weight of it.

Yeah. Right? I mean, to me, it seems normal. But like even your sound you know you can hear it in the sound of people that come from there even nirvana right yeah that like the for me like the just the size of the trees the gray of the sky the the jagged kind of heaviness of the rock of the coast yeah you know the feeling that you're closer to the top of the world than other places. To me, it's like there's a poetry to it that's dark but not sad.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, for sure. So you were a kid seeing Nirvana? Yeah. You know, I was into MC Hammer and stuff. And then Smells Like Teen Spirit came on the radio. How old are we talking? Let's see. That was 91. I was into MC Hammer and stuff, and then Smells Like Teen Spirit came on the radio. How old are we talking?

Let's see, that was 91. I was 13. Yeah. And I grew up outside of Anacortes. So Anacortes is a small town, but I grew up five miles out into the woods. In a barn? Basically. And my parents were building our house when I was growing up. Yeah, forever. It took many years. and my room was the first that got finished so they moved me into it and i was living in this construction site one of my walls was this tarp flapping in the wind oh my god so it's that kind of off the grid yeah rural living well more twin peaks though because and also twin peaks was on tv at that time and so we i remember

watching it was when it was on tv watching an episode being so spooked right getting to stay up late to watch it and then good night everyone walking down the trail to my room in the construction site with the actual owls and you know it was twin peaks who's everyone oh my parents yes the parents i have a brother and sister as well yeah yeah and uh so what what what was the incentive of your uh family to go to the woods well let's see my parents were born in 1955 which makes them a little too young to be uh first wave hippies back to the landers so they were sort of second wave okay that exists right so no it certainly does it good so they weren't hippies but they were like fuck this yeah pretty much and you know not

so radical more just like hey this seems nice to go to a rural area well what'd your dad do oh he's a uh stone mason so he knows how to build things? Yeah, pretty much. Is the house stone? Yeah, it has this huge Russian stone fireplace in the core of it. You know, it's very beautiful. It's still around? Oh, yeah. They're still there. Oh, my God.

And what's your mom do? She's a massage therapist. Ah. So they're very, like, body and stone. Body and earth. Earth people, yeah. And they're good people. and stone. Body and earth. Earth people, yeah. And they're good people.

Yeah, I like them. So are they Swedish? No. My last name's Norwegian. So yeah, my dad's side goes back to Norway. Do you have Norwegian-accented relatives? No. It's like five generations or something.

Did you change your, what is your last name? How do you pronounce it again? Just Elvrum. Elvrum. Elvrum, yeah. Because I wrote it down wrong. Well, I did change it recently. It's E-L-V-R-U-M.

I was, you know, that's what my parents' last name is. But the traditional Norwegian spelling has an extra E in there. It's a town in Norway. Elvrum? Elvrum. Elvrum? in norway they say elvrum oh so you put the e after the v elvrum yeah i mean you know it's i started putting it in there when i was in norway just so i didn't have to have the conversation over and over about

oh sorry my name yeah i know it looks misspelled Right. Are any of your siblings music people? Not really. No? No, not really. There's music, like casual amateur music in my family all the time, but not in the way that I am. Right. I'm music people. So when did the guitar playing start?

Well, yeah, so around when I heard Nirvana on the radio and realized, oh, regular people can make music too not just um famous looking people yeah famous i don't know that was really yeah no it really was a breakthrough yeah kurt cobain and those guys on the cover of rolling stone looked like guys regular people yeah exactly so and then from there I discovered the local record store and they had more obscure stuff that I followed the thread back to, you know, K Records and more obscure Pacific Northwest stuff that I, like my world opened up. Like who else? Beat Happening was very big.

Uh-huh. Do you know about K Records at all? No. Oh. Well, yeah, that's definitely my portal into the music what's k records k was that a label yeah k is i mean they still exist but it was uh calvin johnson from the band beat happening i know the name beat happening i've probably heard their songs but i don't know i don't have a record of theirs and i have a lot of records it's difficult to to summarize, but Olympia, it was the Olympia thing.

Is this the 90s beat happening? Early 80s. Okay, so they were like the grandfathers of the label scene up there. Right, yeah. Okay. And it was like a particular version of punk. Right. The definition of punk that was not, it was not masculine.

It was more inclusive and there have been lots of different eras so i came along after they had been going for 15 years or something showed up in olympia and was led into calvin had a great studio called dub narcotics studio he gave me a key to and that's how i ended up making all those microphones records so it's just you in the studio with your nylon string guitar with all all kinds of stuff, yeah. Huge amps and drums. It was an amazing kind of... I think Calvin was going for sort of an Andy Warhol factory type dream. Just this beautiful room of resources that's available for whoever.

And who were the other artists around? When I was there, Mira was there. Modest Mouse had some records on K. Built to Spill. Built to Spill. Built a Spill. Halo Benders. Brett Knetson. Yeah.

He's off the grid. Yeah. He's up there, you know, fertilizing his plants with poop. Yeah. The last I talked to him. That's been a few years. I imagine that doesn't shift. That only gets, you go further down that rabbit hole.

You can't go back from that. He's a good player yeah there have been so many eras of that that version of the pacific northwest thing sub pop as well i'm sure you came out of that no sub pop and k sort of came up concurrently but sort of developed their own distinct you know one is a seattle thing one's an olympia thing talking about regional differences here. Sure. And what do you hear sonically the differences are, tone-wise? Seattle is darker. Harder?

Harder, darker, more gritty. Yeah, more masculine. Mm-hmm. And Olympia was more geared towards feminism and, well, the Riot Grrrl thing. That's right. That's all olympia right right yeah yeah so you were there for that i was there just after riot girl stuff i was there when it was sort of morphing into who knows what else and i was just doing my own thing i would record my songs at night and it was very much like a solitary thing. I was just really into recording and being alone.

Right, and did you, but you're not a drug guy. I'm not a drug guy, no. You're just sort of like a very sensitive, weight of the world guy. Yeah. You really summed me up. That's all, this interview's over. Is that true?

No, yeah, that seems right. I'm a sensitive, weight-of-the-world guy. Well, no, I mean, you hear it very immediately. I mean, it resonates with me, and I just didn't know the music, and I listened to, like, a Microphones record, and I listened to the new record. So you layer sounds, you know, but it is all you. But, I mean, you don't just play

straight in and then that's the end of it yeah no it's a recording project or it started that was my way of getting into music i wasn't into writing songs but i was so excited about this multi-track record four-track recording just this idea that you could combine sounds so and you weren't into writing songs no i just wanted to record sounds. I was like, well, what if I had a really low, bassy, rumbly thing, and then a high-pitched thing, and then... It's sort of like Fred Frith or somebody, or just like layers of, like John Cagey.

Yeah, like using the studio as the instrument, and I had to start writing songs just to have something to record and then since then did you show up there why'd they let you use the studio if you didn't even play things i was making tapes in my hometown what were they uh these noise experiments you know with beats too as i was just really obsessed with it. That's why it was called The Microphones. And all my songs used to be about preamp, compressor, the technology of it, really. I was into singing about gear. Uh-huh. Kind of using metaphors about it, but mostly singing about here's how a preamp works.

Uh-huh. Careful about feedback. So there's a humor to it. No, it wasn't funny. It was like an emotional teenager. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. It was about how like the microphone loves the speaker, but it's this star-crossed love.

Right. Were you sad? Not truly sad, you know, in a teenager way. Yeah. How old are you now? 38 now. Oh, wow. You're a young guy.

38 seems old to me, but yeah. Thank you. So were there other musicians around? I know you work with some people. Yeah, when I moved to Olympia from Anacortes, it was like moving into a world of amazing people doing their things and resources. Because I heard women singing on one of the records I listened to.

Yeah, yeah, I've got friends that sing with me sometimes. Yeah, yeah, I've made some friends over the years. But when you started doing this and it became popular, I mean, how did you tour with it? Well, I just still kind of tour in this way where I load up the car. But when it was mostly sound experiments oh right yeah like what would the microphones do out there there were a couple of attempts of playing playing it live where i would try and i was looked like a one-man band playing a drum and a guitar and an organ and

just people were laughing so because that was not the desired effect looks clowny no that's not what i was going for so i just sort of accepted early on that i can't translate this and i developed i think that's why i started writing songs because it worked better when if i'm going to perform in front of people to be communicating something well what did you want out of it did you if you didn't want to really write songs what was the evolution from you know sounds to you know these i imagine you're finding a great deal of relief layering sounds. Yeah. Like there's something very satisfying about having something,

because it's a very open palette. So I can see it making sense as you do it, and you're kind of wrangling these different layers and noises. There's a real orchestration to it that doesn't play by any rules that I imagine has to create once you hit that place layers and noises there's a real orchestration to it that doesn't play by any rules yeah that i imagine has to uh to create once you hit that place where shit seems right it's sort of like oh i could live here yeah totally exactly yeah producing yeah and composing yeah and the blurriness between producing and composing uh-huh with just sounds with sounds and instruments and

yeah or i'm gonna take this piano and put the mic 200 feet away and what what happens then yeah it's exciting yeah of course that's not the type of record i just made i sort i make records like that that are these worlds of sound and sometimes i just write some songs on the guitar and make records like that my girlfriend said that when she had a microphones record that you would do the like there was some sort of fold out pop-up thing that you made oh she had that one yeah what is that i was like where's my fold up pop-up yeah that was yeah that was my second album on k it was hot we stayed in the water is the title and i had this idea that yeah it'd be a gatefold lp that was popped up like a pop-up right but my idea about how to die cut them didn't pan

out so i just had to get a crew of people together and we hand cut them with exacto knives and glued them together and it took a month yeah of people constantly in my house and so when it came to working on the record how many press just a thousand yeah it was really labor intensive that is labor intense. So that was... So I wonder if she still has that. It sounds like a rarity. It's a rarity, yeah. The repress was not a pop-up.

What was it called? It was called... It was Hot We Stayed in the Water. That was from 2000. And how do you construct songs? I mean, previous to moving through the feelings of this new record. I mean, what was your process i used well it's very studio based i would go in the studio i have a studio in my town yeah

in anacortes and it's just it's in an old church like a catholic church that's not a catholic church anymore so it's this big beautiful room and i would just go in there and uh explore these kind of raw ideas what would it sound like if i put this thumping thing through the subwoofer and hit the gong over here and i play this organ and then that would i would sort of wrestle that idea into a song uh-huh so that so the words are actually the final element more or less some midway through and then i was also singing about really kind of big questions a lot of metaphors trying to make big statements about life and death in the universe well what what were the big questions for you then what does it mean to be alive what you know what's the point so you you have that current of malaise.

Well, no, it's not a sadness or a melancholy. It's just... It's an honest question. Yeah, it's an honest question. Now I ask it every morning. Yeah, seriously. I mean, we exist. Isn't that weird? That's basically my feeling.

Right, but some people seem to have a good time. Yeah, I have a good time. Do you? Yeah, often. In fact, the fact that I get to ask these questions and make this music, that seems like I'm doing pretty good. Do you ever get to a point where you're like, oh, I've got closure on the what's the point thing?

I doubt it. I mean, what would life be like then? I don't know. Relaxing? Enlightened? Yeah, maybe enlightened. Yeah. Did you grow up with any religion?

No. No. No. So you don't have that hanging over you to maybe jump back to if necessary. No, I don't have any of that. I've maybe tried to like read Buddhist books just to see if that clicked with me. Yeah. No good?

Some of it did in like a poetic way maybe but not the actual like i'm not gonna meditate to get enlightened i don't think yeah it makes me anxious i get the opposite effect from meditation yeah i don't get the enlightened i get the sort of like oh my god well i honestly don't know if i believe that enlightenment is a real thing yeah i mean it seems a little bit like believing in heaven which i i just don't believe in belief well you know right it's a trick you play on yourself to get by yeah and i imagine people will be critical of that i mean either you can live in the trick or resort to it occasionally i think that's the definite that's the difference between

spirituality and religion right yeah, yeah. Totally. Like, when do you use it? Or are you just always in it? If you're always in it, then, yeah, that becomes somewhat of a, I don't know. I've been having a lot of these conversations lately. They don't get me any closer to God. Yeah. We can stop.

No, I don't mind. So, when did you start working with or meet your wife? I met her in 2003. Genevieve? Yeah, Genevieve. Genevieve. Yeah, she's French-Canadian. From what part?

Well, Montreal. Oh, yeah? Yeah, she's a Montreal kid. How'd you meet her? Her dad was English-Canadian, so he lived in Victoria, which is really close to Anacortes. Okay. 30 miles. Yeah. She was setting up shows there and met a lot of people that I know through music.

She was a promoter? No, she's a graphic novelist, cartoonist. She's got some books on Drawn and Quarterly, the publisher there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But she was also a musician. What's her last name? Castray. I mean, it's a pen name.

But yeah, Genevieve Castray. And so, yeah, I met her through setting up shows there and she offered to set up some shows for me and i said yes please set me up as many as you can and we ended up going on this little tour together around the all those islands around vancouver island little towns love it up there yeah it's very beautiful i want to live up there yeah yeah you can's very beautiful. I want to live up there. Yeah. Yeah. You can. I can? Yeah, you're invited. To let me?

So you felt instantly drawn. Yeah, I mean, even before I met her, people that knew both of us were saying, oh, Phil, wait till you meet this person. It's going to be crazy. I think people just knew we were well suited for each other. How did it go? Did you work together? How did it start? She moved down to Anacortes?

What happened? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, we went 100% all the way. We were like, let's have kids. You're my person forever. It was like, yeah, certainty. 2003? 2003. A lot of people we knew were freaked out

they were phil who's this person are you sure you're gonna get married this is so fast how long were you married 13 years and we we got married pretty much right away yeah on leap day in 2004 well partially because she was canadian, so she could live with me. Oh, it's so funny because now I want to go the other direction. Go to Canada? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that was our plan, just to leave the, you know, 2003. It was also a terrifying time politically and same wars happening.

But we just couldn't figure out where in canada to move and after a long time sitting there trying to figure it out we realized oh well i guess we live here oops so did you did you guys create music together not so much we were both pretty stubborn solitary leave me alone type people and that somehow worked together the one thing that struck me when i put that record on because i didn't i don't even know if in the note you said what happened i think in in the note you just said that your kid is wanting to talk from hearing me talk in the kitchen yeah what's your kid's name again i Agat. Agat. And I thought that was very sweet. And then I put the record on, and it was just like, I think the first song, within the first two lines, you say, death is real. Or is that the first?

That's the first line, yeah. Death is real. Yeah. And I was like, first line yeah death is real yeah and i was like oh my god what's happening yeah and then like um but then like it didn't like once i realized as each song went through and they were very descriptive i think more descriptive in a way that was related to real life than the other record i listened to. It was not fragmented in any way. There was a narrative. Right. Well, yeah, there was a shift.

When I was talking about how I used to tackle these big questions and use metaphors, this new record, all of that was like, what was I thinking before? How cocky of me to try and talk about mortality. What did I know? Well, it was speculative. You may not feel like you knew anything, but it's something none of us know about in terms of experiencing it firsthand. Right. But it's something we're heavily aware of and we're managing a certain lack of acceptance or terror moving towards some sort of acceptance of it as we get older.

And you just got delivered a very premature blow. Yeah. Well, how old is your daughter? She's two, just over two. So when did, so you had this child and your wife wasn't ill? No, she went in just for a regular checkup, like a postpartum four months thing and had a little abdominal pain to the regular doctor. And it was like, you know, oh, there's a suspicious looking little thing here. We're going to do this other test for you. And then that test led to more suspicion.

And just within the space of a few days and a few scans, everything crumbled. It was insane. So there was a diagnosis within days? Yeah. Well, yeah. Our local doctor saw the scans and were like like it's inconclusive we don't know and jenvia was like could it be cancer is it cancer and the doctor said oh likely i i'm so sorry do you want to talk to the chaplain i have to go somebody giving birth. It was just a very bad social. Some doctors are not good at that.

Yeah. This one wasn't. Uh-huh. And so we hung on that word likely for 10 days until our next appointment where we were going to Seattle to get the actual biopsy. Uh-huh. And we were like, what did she mean likely? And what, the chaplain? Yeah.

That was, is she going to die? Yeah. And just like, and trying to put it out of our head so in that 10 days that was a very weird 10 days but then yeah she went to seattle and it was confirmed and it was we still didn't really we had this baby you know we brought the baby to the appointment yeah to um to get the bad news. And that doctor in Seattle had to... How was he? He was good.

I could tell he was just horrified at his job that day to tell us... Was he an oncologist? He was a, yeah, a surgical oncologist. So we were going to him to confirm that this tumor was not surgically removable not resectable it had grown around it was pancreatic cancer so it had grown around her um vessels i'm yeah i used to know so much about this stuff but i'm actively trying to block it out sure my mind but yeah i remember these days very vividly and i remember specifically having this crying baby in my arms in the doctor's office as he's like i know that

having the baby there was making the rawness of his job that much harder yeah yeah yeah so i kind of feel sorry for him now we could have gotten a babysitter that day but we just were our mind frame was like idealistic right it can't be that bad they're gonna tell us good news today thinking positive sure trying to live your life trying to live our life we were new parents and we were just on this other path but and so then you get this confirmation and the reality shifts and the process of acceptance must be horrendous. Yeah. Because you don't want to. No, we didn't want to. We just drove home in this kind of haze with a screaming baby.

What was the prognosis? Well, the way they talk about it is positive thinking and optimistic, but we also were looking at the statistics on the internet, which is not good to do, maybe, psychologically, of course. Couldn't help yourself. Couldn't help ourselves. And my mind has this thing I can't turn off where I just have to like prepare get ready for what's likely to happen i try to have some control yeah yeah so through all of this i've been trying to act positively and think positively well at the same time in the back of my mind preparing for the worst case scenario was there any possibility of treatment i mean was did you go through that sort of like we got to change the diet we gotta yeah for sure she started chemo right away and we there were some experimental

surgical techniques that we ruled out first like different yeah we very quickly went into the world of cancer both alternative cancer stuff and mainstream cancer stuff and up and coming like immunotherapy, different like laser surgeries at this place in Cleveland. Oh, but it costs $100,000. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Just immediately into that world. And was there a time frame? They never at no point did anyone tell us you have this amount of time to

live because that's a that's a fast cancer it is and she lasted longer than she was supposed to i think i mean even though they never told us well from from the point of diagnosis to uh her passing how long was that 14 months i think oh my God. So you did have some time. Yeah, it wasn't good time. I mean, it kind of doesn't count because she got absorbed. She transformed into a different person. I shouldn't say it doesn't count. That's too heavy, but yeah.

Like what kind of person just fueled by a kind of aggravated optimism and need to... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I knew her, when I met her, and when we lived together for all those years, she was like kind of a confrontational, skeptical, hardcore punk type. Yeah. And you like that.

Comfortable with pessimism and negativity. In fact, most of her music and art that she made was about embracing the darkness. Right. It's okay. Process this stuff. Get into it. Chew it up. Don't get lost in like rainbowy positivity.

But then she got. That's not quite like you though. You're a little more. I'm into the darkness too. But you seem to like. I have a bright demeanor today. Oh, you do? Yeah, I think so.

Oh, good, good. Los Angeles. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then she turned into. Yeah. Part of what happened to her through the desperation of like trying to be alive yeah was she embraced a lot of stuff that to me didn't seem like her

right um well there's i guess but you you you'll you'll uh forgive her that oh for sure like what like what like for instance everything she. She did everything. She tried everything. She got into unicorns and angels and tarot and all kinds of extreme diets. And she just tried everything. Huh. And I need to be careful talking about that stuff because, yeah, I don't blame her at all. Who knows how I would react and transform? It just was disorienting to live with. i think you're just trying everything yeah i don't i think like when it would seem to me that when one becomes you know terminal that

you know it's a it's a type of it's very hard to to be giving in any way, I would imagine, because, you know, I mean, the struggle to find a way to survive versus, you know, being there for other people, it's got to be tricky. Yeah. It was okay for her to be absorbed into it. Yeah. It was sort of like the stated roles that we i i held down the house i took care of the kid yeah i did the shopping and yeah she was like in her studio drawing sometimes but mostly just listening to like meditations on youtube and getting tarot readings over the internet from people and just doing all that

stuff. How would the tarot readings be a remedy? I don't know. I mean, I sort of turned the other way, honestly. I was supportive, but I was taking care of this kid. I was buying groceries and like calling the insurance company, living in the hard realities right oh right right and so yeah i was disengaged from that stuff yeah you just allowed her to space out of necessity for for sure for her but also for you to do all the other stuff it and it really helped her i think i think that a lot of that did prolong her life but at the same time it wasn't her and she was absorbed in it staying up late just lost in that world but yeah but i guess i imagine if you were just hanging around panicking too and doing the same thing it wouldn't have been good it was probably the distance in that way of

practicality was probably helpful i suppose so i just what are you going to say like stop doing that or like wait i've got i found another tarot reader it was more the the reason why it's even an issue is that it was more that she wasn't available to have any sweet three-person family time right she was inaccessible to our daughter and uh that that was hard and sad but understandable but understandable yeah so i complain about this stuff and forgive her for it maybe i shouldn't even talk about well what happened when when it when she became physically ill i mean did did it change yeah what was that process yeah she her body transformed so pancreatic cancer is a digestive cancer, so she couldn't digest food. So her body, she was kind of starving.

And she got very skinny, and then she was doing chemo as well. So that contributed. And she had no hair. And then she got jaundiced. I mean, it was the whole thing. Did she find any solace in the child? Oh, yeah. Tons.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, she was keeping her alive in a lot of ways. And then Shenvia was working on a book for our daughter that John and Cordelia is going to put out. She's working on a board book, a kid's book, although it's very heavy because it's unfinished. It's mostly finished, but she didn't finish it. There's a book about a mom who's trapped in this bubble and this kid that wants to play with the mom.

The mom's like, sorry, I'm in this bubble. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's very heavy. Did she write it all when she was ill? Yeah, it's illustrations because she's a cartoonist. So they're like little paintings.'s 16 pages very beautiful and then the end of the book is the bubble pops and the mom walks away and can breathe freely she's no longer hooked up to the oxygen tube and you know she's drawing this with the oxygen tube hunched over her death

just trying to like get the last pages done and she didn't finish it she didn't finish it and we're gonna publish it in that way so you know a fucked up kid's book i don't know what parent is gonna read this to their kid but it's it you know it needs to come out yeah so were you the primary caregiver yeah yeah and then we had a big crew of people friends and family that were helping a lot too and she passed away at home yeah yep they we brought a hospital bed in and hospice and everything she she tried chemo a bunch of different times she even we went to hawaii a year God, it seems like so long ago, but it's a year ago from like now. To do this naturopathic retreat, which turned out to be a big scam.

But anyways. Oh, that must have been a horrible revelation. It was horrible. But at that point, it was like just money, whatever. Yeah. We have bigger issues. Right. And so how long has she been gone?

July 9th, she died. Less than a year. Yeah, less than a year. Yeah, so short. I dove right into this, like making this record and going back out into the world quickly. I don't know why I did that. Well, I kind of do. I was living in this, under these restraints of like being a parent,

being a caregiver. Well, you know, when I listen to it, like that's sort of like the the kind of interesting and and daunting thing about it and i you know not not that it's a reasonable comparison but after my after my second wife left me you know i i was working through it as it was happening publicly because that's how I worked through things. And I don't know if it was a good decision or appropriate necessarily, but it was what I had to do.

And like when I listened to the record, which, you know, really starts, it seems like you started writing that stuff fairly quickly after she passed away. Yeah. Because it was all those questions that you seem to have had, many seem to have been answered in a very sad way and very real. Like, you know, death is real. That is not a surprising thing and intellectually we all know that but the tone of of that first song is that it's real and

and there was no way i could prepare for it and and i and i didn't expect it to happen now. Yeah. But I've been living with it coming for a year. Well, and also that the version of death that is real in real life, like an actual person dying, is a completely different thing than the death that gets sung about in art, like reflected in art and music and talking about it in literature. The actual experience of the thing is kind of unsayable. Right. And you said it all. Well, I attempted to, but I don't know if I still think it's unsayable.

I still feel like my record isn't the same thing as feeling it, of course. like my record isn't the same thing as feeling it of course no of course but like but the immediacy of it and the details in the poetry are are very uh they're sparse but very pointed yeah and and i think that does have you know like i'm i can't feel what you felt but you can feel what you felt and you have your feelings and i understand yeah you you know it's not it's never going to be the same or you you you're not going to know in your heart really from the physical vessel what that feels like but um but you can certainly feel like you reckoning with it yeah and i guess what i was going to say is that you know given the time frame and given you know the the need to um to get out and and be part of the world and to to to put these songs together as part of your grieving process i don't know that you're i don't

know that you're done no of course not i don't think there is a done no but i mean like i think like you know um like that was the feeling i got that you're like, I've got to, I have these feelings and I've got to put them, I've got to get some control over them. Yeah. And these are the songs. Yeah. But I mean, how is your life? I mean, do you, are there moments where you're like, oh my God, she's, you know, she's gone. Yeah.

Yeah, of course there there are those moments still they are becoming more spaced out you know that those harsh realization moments it's not even harsh always it's more just weird surreal like yeah i can't believe this is actually real it's not a conceptual thing did you break down oh yeah lots all. Lots. All the time. All over the house. And, you know, my daughter just is like, Papa's crying. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm crying. It's okay. She's just used to it.

It's been a while. How did she handle it? She's young enough that I think she's kind of oblivious to the existential aspects. But she knows she's gone? Does she remember? I don't know. She hasn't quite put it together yet she knows who mama is and oh she was a year old when she was a year and a half oh but also just there are pictures of her around the house she's this presence right

and people talk about her and so she's a person that that my daughter knows but uh it's just a person she never sees like a friend that went on a long trip it's interesting because she's probably not going to have anything to hold on to no it seems unlikely like actual memories right people often don't have them although this kid is an incredible rememberer so who knows yeah and what's your plan man uh i don't have a big plan i mean in terms of music and stuff i wasn't planning on making more music i wasn't planning on making this album if anything i thought music was like irrelevant to my life i would just get some job and it seemed like self-indulgent to be focused on creativity

in the way that I had been in the past. But on another level, you know, sadly, it's a pretty, like it's a beautiful record and it's a brilliant record and it's a beautiful record, and it's a brilliant record, and it's an honest record, and somehow or another it connected you to something very non-intellectual. That's what I was going for, yeah. Well, I mean, and also to handle that, you know, on the record and have it not be like as a listener, you know, I felt part of your process, but I didn't feel leveled or sad for you.

You know, like, you know, I felt like I was being carried through the experience of something that's very human and very tragic, but part of life. Yeah, sure. You know, your process, how anyone deals with grief and the actual loss of somebody, you know. And that's not an easy thing to do. It's probably the best writing you've ever done. I feel that way. Thank you. Thanks for all those compliments.

Yeah. I mean, I am proud of it. I'm terribly sorry for your loss it's a devastating thing yeah it is i didn't think through any of this i didn't conceptualize it i just no i just came out of me this way yeah i feel that it was sort of like dipping into a stream that was already flowing but your impulse was to matt to deal with it creatively because that's where that's what you are that's true and once it started coming out it was it was feeling so good to work on it to work on these songs i would run up to that room whenever i had a chance and get you know get back to work on it it was just feeling so therapeutic oh yeah, because you literally sort of answer these questions.

You know, if those stages of grief, you know, are real, which they are, it feels like, you know, they're all in there. Do you know? I don't know. In a jumbled up order, yeah. Well, but kind of. I mean, you know, I think that there's a lot of things that are going to keep coming back. But I imagine that denial is done. Acceptance may be rocky, but it's there.

But depression and anger, those are probably going to come at you yeah that's a few more years i might make an angry record next it sounds good it does it does sounds like creatively fun well you didn't experience that oh sure yeah i think i mean we had a year of pre-grieving before she died that's the thing about prolonged illness yeah and i have friends who have lost their partner abruptly car car accident or and they don't have the advantage advantage is a weird word to use but it's true that i felt like i'm further down the path right and. And then somebody that lost their heart. Well, that's the interesting thing about, and this was not as long as long-term illness can be.

No. And she was, you know, had her mental faculties. Yeah. So you were afforded that opportunity to have those conversations. Yeah, although she wouldn't acknowledge mortality. She didn't want anyone to talk to her about the possibility that she might die. She fought all the way till the end? Yeah, till her last breath.

That's who she was. A fighter. So she didn't change. Yeah, that's true. And that's my proof for all this stuff that she kind of, this new outfit she put on of rainbows and unicorns wasn't really her. It was just desperation. Yeah. But yeah, she didn't change.

That's a whole other song. Yeah, you're right. Wow. She did an amazing job of having cancer and dying. Yeah. That's a weird sentence, but she did incredible at it. She did really good at doing chemo. She was best friends with all the nurses.

She was just so... She knocked it out of the park. Grace. Yeah. She died really well, even though I'd rather she didn't. Yeah. I hear you. Do you want to do a song? Okay.

Which one do you play? Which one do you like to play? I was going to see, I have these new songs, but I didn't know if you wanted. Whatever you're happy with. If there's a song from the record that you find to be something that you like to play. I might play, yeah, maybe I'll play this song called Forest Fire. It's a good, it's relevant to the stuff we talked about. Okay.

Okay. Sounds good. Okay. I'm going to close my eyes while I sing. Okay, and I'll just watch the levels. Okay. Yeah, don't watch me. Ha ha ha.

The year moves on without you in it. Now it is fall Without you I had to close the windows and doors Without you coming through I kept them open for as long as I could But the baby got cold I watched the calendar But the baby got cold

I watched the calendar bulldoze This whole past summer was a lingering heat wave And I remember late August Our open bedroom window Going through your things with the fan blowing And the sound of helicopters and the smell of smoke From the forest fire that was growing, billowing Just on the edge of town where we used to swim.

They say a natural cleansing devastation, burning the understory, erasing trails. There is no end, but when I'm kneeling in the heat, throwing out your underwear, the devastation is not natural or good. You do belong here. I reject nature. I disagree. And in the hazy light of forest fire smoke, I looked across at the refineries

and thought that the world was actually constantly ending. And the smell and roar of the asphalt truck that was idling just out the window tearing up our street I missed you, of course and I remember thinking that the last time it rained here you were alive still and that this same long heat

that I was in once contained you and in this same heat I open the window next to you on your last morning so you can breathe and then so you could ghost away now so the room will hopefully Stop whispering The grind of time I'm not keeping up with The leaf on the ground pokes at my slumbering Grief walking around, severed lumbering Guarantee reasserts itself. I don't want it though. And betrayal winds. Who and how could I live? That's great. Thank you.

You feel alright? Yeah. Thank you for coming. Thanks for having me. It was great meeting you. Yeah, likewise. That's beautiful. It's a beautiful album, and I don't... I'm sorry he had to go through what he went through,

but processing it and elevating it through the music helps everybody. I really believe that's true. So this guy, Mark Mulcahy, he's got a record out. It's called The Possum in the Driveway. You can get it wherever you get music. He was formerly and sometimes currently

in the band Miracle Legion. He's got a hell of a beard right now. And he left his hat here, but I was able to get it back to him he'll also be performing the album uh the possum in the driveway in its entirety on three shows in the northeast at the end of this month the parlor room in northampton massachusetts on june 21st lyric hall theater in new haven connecticut on june 22nd i think i played there. And Joe's Pub in New York City on June 27th. I played there. Nice rooms, good venues where Mark Mulcahy will be performing the entire The Possum in the

driveway album. I was happy to talk to him and it was fun to hear him sing and play guitar. So this is me and Mark Mulcahy. This is me and Mark Mulcahy. I don't know where I got it, but somebody sent me, Dear Mark J. Mulcahy, I love you. Out of nowhere. And I listened to it, and I was like, Jesus Christ, this is great. Found it very moving somehow.

Very honest. Some earnest music. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah thanks yeah i think so you think so and i was like i tried it that way you know it was like one day of recording for each song which is hit it man just nailed this song today without any waiting till later on and bringing the other guy later oh really and it was a real positive you know like i when i after i did it i didn't think of it because i'm not you know that smart but like after i did it i thought okay we're always moving forward we're never going back to fix the thing and it's never backward oh so it did it didn't have some so it was there it's a different positive you know like usually you're laying everything out and doing all this and then the other guy's going to come in tuesday

and you have a list of things you want to do. Everything was done. That was great. I always wished I could make a record that way. It still took a year. The days were spread out. One day a month. But it was real forward moving, you know? And I really, I haven't done it since, but I would like to. Well, that's odd that I registered because that's what registered to me is that

I kind of knew Miracle Legion and you seem like a wholly formed guy. I didn't do any research. I get a lot of records. So I put it on, and then I was like, who the fuck is this guy? And I think I tweeted it, and I think we talked on Twitter a bit. But it just felt very immediate. It felt emotional.

It felt like it was happening. So I'm glad that my ears read well that you did that. So you mean you did it all live to tape or just the session was all in one day? The session was in, yeah, no, there was lots of overdubs, but we'd keep going. And then the guy that I was working with, Henndiskat Henning, he would say,

sounds pretty good, man. I'm like, it sounds pretty good. It wasn't really a lot of fussy fussiness. So there wasn't, a lot of right fussy you know fussy fussiness you know so there wasn't and that was a an intentional method to to stop you from from over analyzing well the thing was the record that i'm you know humping now is the record i had all kind of made before i made the record you're talking about mark jay mckay and so i had that record all done but it was kind of older and i thought you know i kind of haven't made a record in're talking about, Mark J. Mulcahy. And so I had that record all done, but it was kind of older.

And I thought, you know, I kind of haven't made a record in a long time, and I'd rather make an immediate record. Right. One I wrote, like I'd write the song the week before. And it all just felt, I wanted to feel like I was coming from the new, you know, the Phoenix May, you know.

Sure. Up and rising out. So it was just like new material. I still love the other record, which that's why I put it out, but it just was better to do something new. How many times have you phoenixed? Man, because I've been playing with Miracle Legion, and the other night was our quote,

watch my air quotes, our last gig ever, but we played our last gig ever 10 times. Yeah, the governor of rock and roll is, whatever stupid metaphor that was. A few times, yeah. The governor of rock and roll is, you know, whatever stupid metaphor that was. But that one, the one that I latched on to,

Dear Mark J. Mulcahy, I love you. How was that the Phoenix? Like, how did you feel like that? Like, how is it different life-wise? Well, I hadn't, you know uh so what happened was yeah i mean it's i think a lot of people know but my wife died and i had we had two kids so i stopped doing anything for probably four years didn't play didn't record didn't make a record didn't do anything i'm sorry to hear that yeah i know i'm what happened she just just dropped dead

you know no warning no no nothing you know it's pretty shocking you know yeah so uh that was just a that's a you know that was a a place where you know i had an obviously a totally different thing to do but still had the brain that i always had which was just keep the you know yeah make music right and so it was kind of a a real crushing of my normal self to do a thing that I you know I was happy to do because I wanted to right but uh and finally I thought okay I'm gonna I gotta get you know I gotta get back to my, you know, that wants me to do this other thing. Yeah. And so that's the Phoenix part is that I just really wasn't, I wasn't really clear like what was going to happen to me, you know. Yeah.

But I've made records. I've always made records even though I really didn't have any chance at success. You know, I still would make it and hope. Yeah. I never made one thinking this is the one that's going to do something for me, you know. So I would have made it anyway. You know, it's stupidness.

Well, I guess I think there was sort of like, I think that Phoenix idea or just, you know, moving through grief and, you know, using that to process, using music to process it. I mean, it works, right? You know, like a long time ago, this is boring, but I was playing baseball. These guys would say baseball, and I played baseball when I was a kid. And I'm like, okay, let's play baseball. And the guy hit a ball, and I just started running like a mental case,

like I was 10 years old. Like, it's still in your head. You still want to do the thing that you did a lot. Yeah. So this was even, you know, bigger for me. And so, yeah, it was, it's a,

something about just giving your brain the chance to do what it wants to do instead of like trying to make it do something all the time that you want to do, or it doesn't want to do your mind or whatever, whatever one of those things, but doing the thing you want to do, then your brain says, or your mind, I don't know which one,

but one of the other. What about your heart? Does that play in? You know, or your mind, I don't know which one, but one of the others. What about your heart? Does that play in? You know, I put a lot into it. For me, the best part of music, I love to sing, but I love writing lyrics, and I put a lot of myself into the lyrics. Even if they're stupid, I still want it to be good stupid or good silly or good silly

or good whatever. Sure. So I put a lot of it into there and so that's where my, you know, then when you're done, you go, yeah, that all adds up in a good way or no. Do you write, when you write, is it just sort of like bits and pieces or do you kind of find, because like, I mean, your songwriting is

pretty amazing and it's very moving and I'm new to, I know this is going to sound weird, but I'm sort of new to, to actually paying attention to lyrics. Me, you know,

me too, someone, me too. There's certain guys I do and then most people I don't really know. Isn't that weird? Well,

it's weird when you put on some song that you've been known for 30 years, like, you know, I don't really know the lyrics. I don't know one bit of this. I have no idea. Maybe the chorus, and I'm probably not getting it right.

Exactly. But, like, you know, you seem to, like, you know, really capture something, and it's emotional. But so how did you guys start? We started where Ray and I, Ray is the guitarist, Mr. Ray, people call him. He was the guitarist, and we had been the side bananas. I was a drummer. I started as a drummer. So he was a drummer, and we were the guitar player in different bands,

and then we just tried to do our own band. Yeah. Try to write songs. We never had done anything. And what was, how old were you? Probably 20, 20-something, you know. And what was going on up there like what were the bands like what was driving you because like you guys certainly fell into a world right i mean that

was the first wave of i guess what they would call alternative rock yeah college rock yeah it was a great time actually it was gang of four for us uh the Gun Club. Oh, yeah. We really, in the beginning, we really modeled ourselves on The Gun Club, even though we don't really sound like it. On that first record, like on Preaching the Blues. We tried. Yeah, exactly. Fire of Love. Totally.

Yeah. Love that guy. He's another goner, but. He is, man. And that record was really the best record. Yeah. You know, he became a great guitarist. Jeffrey Lee?

Yeah. You know, he became a great guitarist. Jeffrey Lee? Yeah. For, you know, before actually, yeah, before I was in Miracle Legion, Ray and I, we promoted a lot of shows. We did, brought a lot of bands to New Haven. You did? Yeah.

We really did a lot of promotion. And I learned a lot. Yeah, I learned a lot. Well, like what, so, oh, interesting. So you guys. Tons of people, man. You ran the thing. You were like, we're bringing the new music to New Haven.

Yeah, I would go to the club and say, look can get these bands what venues back then uh well the sort of uh the great american music hall was a place in new haven yeah uh maybe uh once in a while somewhere in hartford but kind of steadily at a place called the Grotto or the Brothers Three. You know, weird little places. So this was like 1980? Later than that. It was like, it was sort of a big, well, you know, like I did maybe, well, whenever the replacements, I remember I had the replacements for like, you know, when they were unknown

or whatever it was. I didn't have any money, so they have to be unknown. I did Mission of Burma a lot. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Every time they came, you know? Yeah. Perubu.

Yeah. But I did, I fell into, like, all the California hardcore came through. And I did, you know, Black Flag and DOA and Dead Kennedys. Was that at the time where it was still, like, kind of word of mouth, punk rock? Like, you know, like, because I talked to a lot of cats that well i guess it might be a little later than that where you know most record stores didn't carry that shit you know right so like they had to find the one guy who would carry those records or like a lot of these punk guys they had to get the british records from a dude yeah it was a kind of subversive world of punk

fans that would take care of each other so were you you on the kind of like mail list of like, you know, dude, do you know a place we can play? That kind of shit? I was that guy, but I wasn't a punk at all. We had suits on. We were like probably kind of hated by them, you know? The misfits, you know? Oh, right, right.

A more British trip? No, no, but somehow those were the guys I'd get calls from, you know? I wouldn't get a call from, I don't know. And I worked with a couple of agents that would have like, oh, you know, like the Feelys or something. Oh, I love the Feelys. The Bongos, all that kind of stuff. All the stuff that was around, everybody would go on tour,

and there was a finite number of bands, so it was easy to manage the whole thing. So you were the point guy? In New Haven. Yeah, yeah. And so I learned, learned you know i learned a lot about like i didn't i didn't really know about touring how that worked or really what it was and so uh i saw a lot of things and it helped us you know do kind of more than we might have done i suppose yeah what about sound wise did it influence you that way not so much no i wouldn't say so i don't know what we what we were thinking about trying to do we were doing we were doing like jay says this thing you know i like people who go to

the end of their ability yeah singer anyone and we would just go to the end of our abilities you know yeah so you didn't have any driving influence we had this idea of like we never sounded like queen obviously but queen was a band that would do any song, any kind of song. Right. So that was the openness of how we would think about it. Yeah. If it went one way or another, it was fine.

Right. So we were never, you know, we got sort of compared to R.E.M. a lot. I know. I read that, but I didn't hear it. I think we seemed like them, but I don't think we sounded like them. That was my...

No, you definitely had a little more of that thing that thing that that he's what's his name ray right something more mr ray mr ray he had there was something i could hear from his influences in there that rem did you know did not do that maybe yeah we had it we had a good you know playing with him because i don't know it's clear but we you know we quit playing 20 years ago, and we've been playing. I've just finished yesterday in San Francisco. Last gig. Yeah, the last gig of history. So we do have it. We just have that thing.

You hadn't played with them in 20 years? Not really, no. And then you guys got together? We all got together, the four of us. What about the other two guys? Did you play with them? Well, that was the TV show band that was Polaris. Polaris, yeah.

So we did that, and that's what sort of opened the door to thinking, what about we get Ray? Because Ray wasn't in Polaris. Ray was just out. Ray was out. He's like, well, I don't know how much to get into everything, but we were signed to a record label out here. Well, I like hearing those stories because I think it's...

The black hole of music. You know, there's just this weird like demonic element to the record business of yore that... Yes.

You know, I talk to a lot of cats who are in the music business in the 80s and earlier that it just becomes some sort of nightmare and you lose your freedom

somehow. So, you know, like to sort of nightmare and you lose your freedom somehow so what you know like to to sort of just do what you want to do one way or the other yeah well that did happen to us i mean most of the time that we were just you know mopping along and doing a record as often as we could but then we did get to the point with that label i was going to say morgan creek that we couldn't get out. I mean, they just wouldn't. Normally, you just get released, and that's your bum out, you know?

Right. They wouldn't release us, and we were just stuck with nothing. So you did Surprise, Surprise, Surprise? No, we did that. For a while, we were on Rough Trade, which is great. That was a good record.

That's a great label. Yeah. We did two or three records with them and an EP, and that was all good. And then they went bankrupt. See, we were just part of these things that didn't work. So they went bankrupt, and then we had nothing. But like the guy you were just talking about, we were never going to,

like, we never said, ah, man, it's not working out for us. You know, we just always, you know, it's just, nothing feels stupider than being like that, but that's what it was. us you know we just always you know it's just nothing feels stupider than being like that but that's what it was we just kind of would always keep going and we had this kind of tenacity or something not towards success but just like let's keep doing it you know and what was it like you said before like you like i don't know if that's a uh some you've grown into this right this uh what do i want, this resignation that you're not going to make the big record, you're not going to make a hit record.

But when you started, I imagine you... I don't think we ever had that idea. We just didn't think of it that way. It seemed so unlikely to have... This was a time when the bands that were having hit records were, I don't know, bon jovi or something yeah it was you know theoretically in some story that nirvana just bludgeoned the whole thing to bits but there were but at that time that was sort of the beginning of the college charts right sure yeah and we wanted to do better believe me you know we we aspired and thought and tried and you know um so and we

had you know managers here and there and we you know we tried all these things and we it's a lot of you know man you know it's like there's so much luck and timing and you meet the right guy and you're in the right spot and you're the thing people want i used to always say that you know i don't blame hootie and the blowfish right they just did their thing they didn't try to do anything but be that and that just was the right... Right. They were on the top of the wave at the right second, you know? I like at some point you had to let go of Hootie and the Blowfish.

Well, sometimes, you know, like in my time of liking music, and then when I liked music and I just wasn't a musician, that was a better, that was a sweet time to me. But when you're in it, you know, it's different and you there's times when something comes along you're like you're like oh shit that's what that's what it and i went to see them at this like uh radio station jingle along with all these new bands yeah yeah and they played and i was like oh my god that is so awful you know and i i mean i'm not trying to insult them because you know no of course not i'm sure they're a nice guy and he seems like a great guy you know but i was like

that is just really and it was like here it is and then they started to really elevate and i'm like holy shit man i have no chance in this game none and then that just goes away you know and then there's another one after that yeah yeah yeah but uh so we you know, me and we just kept always chugging along. So we got on this Morgan, I was going to tell you that we got on the Morgan Creek and they went, I don't know what they were doing, man. They made up a label to release the Robin Hood soundtrack, basically. And they signed a bunch of bands. Which Robin Hood?

Kevin Costner? Yeah. And so that's what it was. Oh, they were a film company. They were the film company. And they made some good movies early on. Right. But they, so they created a record label.

What was the- They created a record label with all the guys from the old labels. The guy, the head of the company was the guy, the head of the company. And they opened the doors with gold records everywhere. Yeah. You know, like, wow. But it was like- They hadn't even started yet.

Bob Seger gold record. Yeah, yeah. And the head of the company was the guy who arranged, and these are great dudes too, like amazing guys to hang with, arranged the Beatles in the swimming pool in Hollywood picture. So he goes- That was his credit? He's going back. Well, I'm just saying he was-

Yeah, yeah. He was going back. David Kirshen just saying he was... Yeah, yeah. He was going back. David Kirshenbaum was an old guy that used to just... So that was their press. They're like, look who we got. Come on, kid. We're going hardcore. But they didn't have any clue, really, I don't think.

So we couldn't get out anyway. And that just... Did you make a record with them? Made one record and we prepared another record and then never... It's nothing. Well, what do you mean they couldn't get it out? They have no distribution? them made one record and we prepared another record and then never it's nothing well what is it what what what do you mean they couldn't get it out they have no distribution they didn't want to just throw everything's on hold right now you know we're on everything's on hold and i i was

like oh how long it's gonna be on hold for man you know we sort of are this is what we have this is all we have yeah yeah you're all i have and so it went for a couple years. I came out here. I'd come out here. They had a place. Their offices were in Century City. Yeah. Tall buildings. Yeah. And I said, dude, I'm going to jump out this window, man.

I'd be in there like a Unabomber hoodie on. Yeah. I'm threatening the guy to jump out the window. He's like, I can't help you, man. Like that. I can't open the window for you. Want me to open the window? They probably had me insured, you know. So that I can't open the window for you you want me to open the window they probably had me insured you know

so glad if I jump out the window so that was that was Drenched was the record they put out Drenched yeah and then the next one they just

they did another one so we fiddled up but the reason I was telling you that was that in that time when you asked me was Ray in Polaris no because he's like

I finally had it you know I can't do any I quit he got married I'm quitting I don't want to do anything I got offered the Polaris gig No, because he's like, I finally had it. I quit. He got married. I'm quitting. I don't want to do anything. I got offered the Polaris gig on my own. They offered it to us, and he didn't want it. So I said, could I try it? And that's kind of where I started being my own man. Oh, OK. So the Polaris gig, you had to change your name for legal reasons. No, I just got the job doing the music. It was purely

hired to write music for the show and record the music for the show. The band was sort of an afterthought. How did you get that gig? He said, I love Miracle Legion. The guy who made P.P.? I love Miracle Legion. And I said, well, I don't think you're going to get Miracle Legion, man. Because the other two guys joined up with

Frank Black. They were the Catholics. The rhythm section was the Catholics. And they, they did. They were the Catholics. Oh, they were. Yeah, sure, sure. The rhythm section was the Catholics, and they were like, I'm in the Catholics. I don't, you know, this is good living. You know, I'm in a tour bus. Did that bum you out? In the time before I got the gig with the Polaris gig, with the TV show, I was, man,

now I get nothing. Everybody's gone. I can't do anything. Were you guys friends? Were you devastated? Did you? Yeah, we were friends. I mean, we've always been friends, you know? Yeah. Friends is like, when we're together, we guys friends were you devastated did you yeah we were friends i mean we've always been friends you know yeah friends is like when we're together we're friends

yeah yeah yeah like someone to get out of the van after a tour i go well hey friend i'll see you like next tour like whoa no man i'm gonna see you tomorrow i'm like no you're not man so so i got that job and then yeah they invented the band just to be in the open really right so you're actually you're you're on tv so when we guys went the band just to be in the open, really. Right. So you're on TV? They said, you guys want to be in the open of the thing? And we played the theme song. Yeah. And that became a thing. But we never did a thing with that either.

We're just like, no, I'm not, you know, up here I'm not all full of great ideas. And so I never did anything. And then this guy offered us a gig. That was the same kind of thing. I don't know how many years it was. It was 15 years later. A guy's like, I'm doing this Nickelodeodeon project and would you guys want to play and we never had played a gig at all we never did anything and it's like the biggest thing i have i've done you know was

the nickelodeon project was this band that everybody's when we when we came out to play it's like okay it's like three or four hundred people every town crying and screaming and loving and were they kids was it a kid's show i mean it's a kid show it was a kid show about two brothers it was live wasn't a cartoon uh-huh and uh it was a very well written show so so these didn't wasn't not from my sort of place in time but sure a kid that was had a great soundtrack had magnetic fields and yeah Iggy Pop was one of the characters Stipe was one of the characters you know I don't know how I missed that uh Patty Hurst yeah oh yeah so it was this really well done thing that you know uh I think was a smart

thing for a kid instead of the right most of the crap you know so some of the people involved got followings of these yet the new group of kids. They were kids. Well, you know Toby Huss. Yeah. He was in it. Yeah. I wish I kind of remember the show,

but I don't think I saw it. He probably wouldn't have watched it. I'd watch it with my mom because I was in it and then after like two episodes, she's like, that's enough. It's good to see you there.

Yeah. I'm glad you're doing well, son. I don't want to watch this. You're on TV. But now you have an audience for Polaris.is is a great thing it's a beautiful it's like so like nothing it's like what you really want you go in there everybody's like dying to hear it everyone's crying everyone's so united it's like this beautiful gig where everybody's in the same place yeah there's no assholes yeah nobody's dealing the wrong thing right everybody's real

reverent and yeah i loved it man i really had a great time i hope we do it again i don't i bet we won't but i would you know what soundtrack do this show we did a tour we toured all over the place with polaris uh-huh i don't know if i made that clear but yeah we hadn't played the guy offered us one gig and we thought it sounded you know okay so we kept going. Yeah. That's the way it is, man. Yeah, and that was where you got your biggest following, was with Polaris. I think so, so far, yeah.

Now, talk about how you, it seems like you worked with some people. You know, like once Miracle Legion, when you downsized it. Crashed. So the album, Me and Mr. Ray, was that- That was after the Crazy Huff quit. Right. The original drummer and the second bass player

who had poisoned his mind. Yeah. They quit. And so we said, oh, man. But it's always like, oh, man. They quit, man. Let's make a record over this way now. Because that's all that-

Yeah. It's just like one thought. Yeah. Let's make a record without those guys. Yeah. So we had all these songs that we didn't really think were too good yeah

and so we went and said let's make these songs a record and see what we can do and it all turned out real beautifully you know

well that was like a successful that was a good record that's a great I mean excuse me that was a great record for us

for me I thought I achieved like a lot of things I wanted to achieve. Did you get any traction? Probably not. Not really.

Where'd you record it? We recorded it at Paisley Park. That was another super bonus. Somebody came up with the idea that, why don't you guys go to Paisley Park? I'm like, yeah, sure. Where's that? So we went to Paisley Park.

In Minneapolis? Well, it's a little outside of Minneapolis. And was Prince there? Prince was there. where's that you know so we went to Presley Park you know in Minneapolis yeah well it's a little outside of Minneapolis and was Prince there Prince was there only tangentially man I've never had a conversation with him

and you know I thought like I walked by him one time and I was like hey what's up dude he was super nice or whatever

whatever that's worth but now I read you know after he died you realize you read all these things what a great dude he was and he was always like involved I bet I could have said you want to sit here about what a great dude he was, and he was always involved.

I bet I could have said, you want to play something? He's like, sure, man, it's cool. He's just a musician. He's just a figure. But I wish it's of a regret. I suppose that's one of them. And who produced it? It was produced by a guy who was a total prick.

And we got rid of him and went to this other guy, Paul Coldery. He's the guy thatul coldery he's the guy that fixed it he's the guy that produced all those boston bands that you name anyone he produced them all is he still around he's right he mixed um mark chameleon oh he did yeah oh that's great he's a great dude man love him he still have a relationship with him still doing the work let's do he's the same let's just do it man he's made he produced the radio head record and whole and has done huge things, but could you mix this? Sure.

Oh, yeah? Let's go. Give me 500 bucks. Which Radiohead record? The first one, Pablo Honey. That's good. That's great. Yeah.

You friends with those guys? No. I've met the singer who's a big fan of mine. Tom. Tom. That's a nice fan. I've met him a couple of times, but yeah, we don't have any. He's done your songs,

right? He did a, he covered a song that, that, uh, all for the best, which is, you know,

one of our great songs, I guess. And, uh, uh, it was just in a, um, TV show called the imposters and they used his version and,

you know, it was good, you know, it was a good moment. Good to write a song. Yeah. Surprise check. They're just to write songs. Surprise check check it's an amazing thing when you get paid that you wrote a song you didn't actually yeah you just get an envelope in the mail somebody calls me i want to do that i want to do that and

then something yeah i that that's the that is the uh the the best part about it seems about music is if you got your publishing if you write the song yeah and it's a good song yeah there's it just it just it goes out it's like now go out and make money go somewhere please yeah go let's and so like iggy's had an amazing run of that with uh um a few songs right with two or three yeah lust for life over and over you know yeah yeah just uh the pixies have had a lot of good luck with that too have they know where is my mind where's my mind was in something and they had we're in an apple song uh i forget an apple ad uh-huh it's just people it's you know like rich the manager he calls all the time trying to find these opportunities but it's strictly i like that hey i like that guy yeah

you know it's never yeah it's never to happen with businessmen calling each other. No, it's a weird way it happens. I read that when they first did Search and Destroy, they used Iggy's Search and Destroy for a Nike ad that they ran in movie theaters. And I know a guy who's on the other side, who's in the management realm of the music, or does behind the, you know, not a musician anymore.

And he said the guy who used that song for that commercial was just going through titles. Like, it was nothing to do with Iggy Pop. He liked the title search. Search is Destroyed, and then he listened to the song. It's like, oh, yeah. So it was like, it was just this random thing. And just started, there you go mr uh osterberg here's a quarter of a million dollars surprise have a good week so what kind of like what when

you do a show like in san francisco last night what are the crowds who's who's who's left who are they yeah we're good for like 250 250 people and because of the variety of at least me and polaris and that there's a you know there's a good mix of people you know which album do you think did it like like in in the outside of the Polaris record is there a Miracle Legion crew well you know a lot of people like Drenched which I you know I'm kind of half and half on you know that was the one that got the most attention and had the most money behind it in the ad and billboard yeah we were on David Letterman and that really got a lot of you you know, the usual, the hype

you associate, you know. Right. So a lot of people know that, but a lot of people know, you know, they find it, you know, people are, you get a lot of, it's very encouraging, like, right, to find, especially kids who find Polaris and they look and they look around and they find all the records and they want to know everything, you know. Yeah, I know. I'm in the process.

Gives you some hope, you know. Well, it's always out there. It's there now. And especially Rich has made everything totally available. So it's good. Who's Rich? Your manager? Yeah, the manager.

He's found a way to get everything on all the places you can buy records. I know it must be difficult with your wife passing away, but I mean, how did that, you know, like, how did that change the way you approached life in general? Did it? Hey, you know, man, to be brutally truthful, you know, like, it's just, I have to, you know, I have to provide. I never provided, you know, before that, before I had kids. I wasn't a provider.

She was? No, well, I mean, we had money. We just had enough money to kind of, the two of us, provided you know before that before they had kids i wasn't a provider and so she was no well i mean we had money we just had enough money to kind of the two of us she worked i you know i played and we were fine but right but you know i i just look at what i'm doing in a i still feel you know like an artist you know right but i also know that it's all i have to bring home some i can't i have to bring home money from it yeah just how old are they they're 11 twins oh right so that you know it's just it's just a responsibility right there's it like and it may and it's you know it's been it's made me grow up quite a bit about what I'm doing and it makes me approach it's turned me a lot more professional about what I'm doing than

I would have been you know I wouldn't have given a shit. I would have, like, if this was 10 years or something, I would have come in and given you a hard time just because I thought, who is this guy? What does he want out of me? I would approach everybody like that. What do you want out of me? Fuck you. And it doesn't make any sense to think that way,

obviously, for whatever reason you're thinking that way. But I know, I have a, I feel like I'm no, I feel, I was going to say earlier, man, like I've learned more since Miracle Legion than I knew all the time I was in it. I've learned about how to sing, how I can sing differently and how to write and just everything about it has been, you know, it's really the thing of the more you know, the more you realize you don't know anything. Right. So that's where I am, zen-wise. I know I have a long way to go kind of thing. Well, it's also interesting when you come at it, because I'm the same as you,

and maybe that's why I get attracted to the records, in that when I set out to do stand-up or whatever my chosen craft is, which is comedy, I just wanted to say something. I wanted to do this thing. I had no plan. People like in show business, some of them have plans. They have points they want to reach.

They keep a consistent hairdo. They maintain stylistic elements they make connections they do all that shit and i entered it sort of like i'm here where when does it start i know the idea we did the thing i mean where's the guy where isn't somebody here yeah exactly i thought they were gonna come come get us. Yeah. When are we going to be picked up? Yeah. And just to go slightly on, we did, like a miracle, we had a great success right off the bat.

Yeah. Boom. We went to England, which I'd never been there. Well, that's what- And boom, we did well. And Seymour Stein called us, and everything was going great. And then, shh. Then, how it goes.

Well, I mean, so which album was popular in England? It was called The Backyard. It's our first record. Okay. It's an EP. An EP. That's when EPs could go huge. It just struck somebody, man.

It was like the perfect tune. Yeah. But nobody knew how to capitalize. Nobody knew what to do. In this country or what? Right. Anywhere, you know. But in England, they-

We had a video on MTV right away. When we made a video, this girl, this woman we know made a video. Kelly Reichardt, if you know her, she made the video for it. And everything was, we're like, all right, well, I guess, you know, I guess that's it. Let's go. Yeah. And then, nothing. Nothing?

Like a rock. But what about, but it got you to Britain? Yeah, we toured around England. Yeah, we, I mean, it helped a lot. It helped us a lot did people come in england totally you know yeah it was getting played on the radio and that's when england was enemy and everything mattered you know we do a photo shoot for every of the melody maker enemy that'd be the photographers come around take you can take your notes the yearbook the green

over to the hemp and the hempstead heath and take some shots around you know someone's graveyard so it was really crazy and exciting. I wonder if that's where York got wind of you. Well, he got wind of that song all for the best. Him and his brother, he said, my brother and I heard that on the radio. We went to London and bought a record, and that's it. Oh, yeah?

He's told me, I mean, he genuinely loves that tune, man. And he's not kidding. I mean, he is not fucking kidding. The first time, I somehow went to see them play in New York, and I got on the guest list somehow, so he knew I was on the guest list, I guess. Yeah. And so, I'm at the show, and he comes up,

he comes up for the encore, he said, well, you know, I want to dedicate this song to Mark Mulcahy. I just love the next song. And I'm like, what? You know? Did he play it? He played, no, it wasn't all for the best

it was something else yeah but it was their song but yeah but he dedicated it to me and I'm like and I'm looking at my friend who's the only other

guy who knows who I am yeah at this gig you know and it was just I'm like that's crazy so I went to meet him

I went back so I'm like dude you know and he was like you couldn't wow and then you know that's that was I don oh, oh, oh, you couldn't. Wow. And then, you know, that was, I don't want to oversell it, that was pretty much it. I've never really seen him again.

No, but like, you know, but isn't that beautiful though? I mean, clearly that song shifted something in his head. Totally. And his brother too. I know his brother a little better. I've toured with his brother's band. What's his brother's band? They were called The Unbelievable Truth.

Uh-huh. And he couldn't, I, you know, they were pretty good. He couldn't get away from being Time York's brother. That's tough. So it's hard. The burden of sibling fame. People would accuse him of not changing his name. You should change your name, man.

Yeah. What? But I like that. I like that, like, you know, that you don't know how. That's the beautiful thing about music is it's kind of magic like that. you don't know when it's going to drop in yeah that's why everything's always available like you know music doesn't go away like i just get i'm just now because i've had this vinyl resurgence that and i realized how much shit i don't know nothing about and you can't like i always get insecure like even when i talk to you because you know you've done a lot of work

and like i know there's got to be at least one or two people out there who are going to be like i can't believe you didn't ask him about his dog you know like you know you talked about it in a song and i can't accommodate that all i can do is continue to be curious but you don't know when it's going to drop in i'm like going on a goddamn lee morgan tear he's been dead forever yeah and like you know nine people love lee morgan and now i'm like so how did i not know about this guy how was i gonna know about him i don't know i'm the same i mean i don't know i know what i knew up until i started playing music right so i know

old shit yeah i'm on youtube looking at deep purple videos that's me you know that's where i'm at yeah i think you played to the heavy-hearted dudes. Maybe. You know what I mean? Maybe. At these gigs we just played, this guy comes, I flew from Chile to see the show. You don't know.

It's what I like. And they start hugging you. Yeah. You know the hug that like... He needs it. Yeah, I know. And I'm happy. Can I have a hug? But then it's like... Okay. Yeah, I know. And I'm happy. Can I have a hug? But then it's like, okay, man.

Hugs are hard to get out of if they're sincere. It's not like a baseball hug after a home run or something. It's like a real solid hug. That's a weird. Hugs are hard to get out of if they're sincere. Well, they're really, and you really get. You can feel it. And the Polaris thing, I was saying, they're crying. Well, they're still, they're really, and you really get, you can feel it. And the Polaris thing,

I was saying, they're crying, they're bawling. I'm looking across, every fifth person is weeping, you know? Yeah. To hear this tune

that's from their brain. Their brain's like, oh my God, it's the thing that we all, when we were kids. Let's cry. Yeah. And it's a happy,

you know, I'm crying, but. Not everyone can write songs like that, buddy. No. I have one song, dude, and I don't know if you ever heard it, but it's a happy you know crying but not everyone can write songs like that buddy no I have one song dude and I

I don't know if you ever heard it but it's called Don't Talk Crazy and it's about a guy who gets wounded in war and comes home you can't

no one can listen to it it's like it's an unlistenable song it's just so I'm crying right now I honestly got I'm a little bit crying

thinking of the tune. Really? And I'm not saying anything about me. Which record's that on? It's not on any record. It's not even, you can barely get it.

You can't, I should take it out. It's too painful. And you know, I'm not saying that I've done something, but it's just, it's just the,

the idea of this thing, you know, it's just too much to, it's too much to bear, you know? As I, you know, as I get,

I've always been sort of moved by stuff like that, to have a melancholy or a depth to it like that. And I guess that's what I heard in your music. Because there's a frequency of emotion that people operate from creatively. And I don't know that they can explain it, you know, but it is what it is. And, you know, if you're one of those people, you're not going to, you know, fill stadiums,

but you're definitely going to change lives. Yeah. I think so. You know what I mean? I, I think I have that, you know, Irishness of some kind of, something like that. That's so, I was just talking to somebody about that today oddly like because like i have this weird connection to ireland that's emotional you know like i you know i'm just a jewish guy you know i i'm not irish in any way but when i go there there's part of me that's sort of like i'm home yeah well you know we're downtrodden

yeah but you're downtrodden, but acceptance of it. Yeah. That there is a point of view through the darkness, through the bog. Yeah. You know, that, you know, we keep going forward. Right. You know, no one said this was going to be easy. Right.

That's what I'm saying. Even about everything about I've been doing in music. It's never been. Right. Because I had some huge success, I'm going to build on that. It's just been I'm going to keep on trucking. Keep going. Keep going. Keep trucking.

Keep going and experiencing the feeling, the struggle. But sometimes I feel I meet the guy that used to be in the band and he's a lawyer or he's got something good. I'm like, fuck, man. Why didn't I do that? You're not meant for that. Why didn't I make the right move and get out and get, you know, he's. How often do you spend thinking along that line? Not that often.

I do, you know, I do. I wish I could have all those things, you know, but I don't, you know. I don't, like, when I used to think like that, which I try not to, like, you know, it's much more specific now as opposed to sort of like, you know, crossroads regrets. Like, you know, here I am at the crossroads. I think I'll just stay on the one I'm on. Yeah. Yeah.

But but, you know, when I do choose to sort of be the only way I can put it into any sort of context, which I do, is like, there was no way I could have done that. I'm just not, it's not in me. I'm not that guy. There's no way. It's very easy to judge yourself against other people's successes when they take this other thing, but think about the time that you might have done that.

There's no way you would have done it no matter what. You mean realistically, I would have flunked at most of those things unless somebody gave me some perfect right chance but right having a job that was just the right one but i don't know what that would be exactly and when those guys make that decision they let go of something i think so yeah you're of course they do that you're not willing to let go of like when i was at my lowest and i was going to quit comedy i was like well there's only a couple options and one of them is not living anymore. I'm always at UPS.

I would say that. Look, man, we got to turn the lights off right now. Daddy's going to go. UPS, huh? Heading over to UPS. I figured I could do that. Yeah. Get some.

I could deliver, drive the truck, deliver. Get some coverage. You know, get some insurance. It feels like a doable job to me. Yeah, yeah. You just got to wear the outfit. Maybe FedEx if I can get a little, It feels like a doable job to me. Yeah, yeah. You just got to wear the outfit. Maybe FedEx if I can get a little, if I shoot a little higher.

FedEx. Something. But it does seem like a job that anybody could sort of work their way into. Yeah, I guess there's jobs like that. But look how old we are. Like, that was the other. I don't want to do it. But that was the other thing, man.

It's like when I was at my lowest, I was already in my 40s. And I'm like, the last job I had was working at Edibles. You know, like, I'm going to had was working at Edibles. You know, like, you're going to go apply, you're like, come in, get a grill job.

I don't know, I was talking about, I worked at the magazine store. I was like, hey, how's that job going? Well, I had the job

at the magazine store. One of the magazines of the magazine show. That was the last one. Otherwise, I had nothing, you know. But,

all right, well, do you want to play a song? If you want me to, I don't, I kind of bumped that on you. Oh, no, no, I didn't know. I didn't know if you want me to I don't I kinda bumped that on you oh no no

I didn't know I didn't know if you wanted to yeah I do that all the time I mean I like when people play if you feel like it I'll try I only

I only know a couple I know a couple from the record and that's about it I haven't been playing at all yeah you wanna try it I don't keep up you know the song The Fiddler from the new album yeah Try it. I'll keep up.

You know the song The Fiddler? From the new album? Yeah. I just listened to it. This one's from the new album. It's called The Fiddler. Now there's a little town around here That had a damn back crack Now there's a little town around here

That had a dam that cracked Flooded and washed the high school into the river The local chiropractor came to have predicted it Is it the proofs in the facts That I straighten But there's a fiddler who plays While the Bakerloo train Steams a steely screen Into the underground Who plays while the Beckeloo train

Steams the steely screen into the underground Translucereen, he can hear himself dream But there's always a moment in between There's always a moment When somebody's listening to you Now there's a million to one chance That everything will be fine There won't be any fuck-ups Or problems this time

So get back on the bus and stay focused on us There's blacker than champagne and a waterbed if you need one

But there's a feeling Water bed if you need one. But there's a feeling. Forget it, man. What happened? I'm not playing it right. That sounded so good. You want to try it again? I'm just fucking it up.

Give me another chance at it. One more chance. I thought it sounded great. I was into it. Can I take another try at it? Of course. Do you think so? I think so. I don't know. Don I take another try at it? Of course. Do you think so? I think so. I don't know, maybe.

Don't be too hard on yourself. See, that's the guitar. I'm thinking about it. Are you fucking up? If someone else was playing guitar and I was singing, I wouldn't be thinking. Okay, here we go. One, two. Now there's a little town around here That had a dam that cracked

Flooded and washed the high school into the river The local chiropractor came to have predicted it He said the proof's in the backs that I straightened That I straighten But there's a fiddler who plays

While the Bakerloo train Steams a steely screen Into the underground Translacerine He can hear himself dream But there's always a moment in between There's always a moment

when somebody's listening Now there's a million to one chance That everything will be fine There won't be any fuck-ups Or problems this time So get back on the bus And stay focused on us There's black girls and champagne and a waterbed if you need one Now there's a fiddler who plays while the Bakerloo train

Steams a steely screen into the underground The Transylvanian, he can hear himself dream But there's always a moment in between There's always a moment in between There's always a moment in between There's always a second when somebody's listening Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh Yeah. I kind of screwed it up, but I don't care. No, it sounded great.

It sounded great. Should have practiced. Well, come on. No, I'm happy with it. All right. It was great talking to you. You too, man. Thanks for having me.

Yeah. See you another day. You got it. Nailed it on that last one. Mark Mulcahy. Again, the album is The Possum in the Driveway. Good record. Don't forget, you can also go to WTFpod.com

for all your WTFpod-related things. Pre-order that book. Pre-order the book, Waitingorder the book waiting for the punch it's going to be good it's coming it's coming all right okay i should play play some guitar Thank you. Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

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