WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 851 - Elliot Gould

Episode Date: October 1, 2017

Elliot Gould was at the vanguard of American New Wave Cinema in the 1970s, but he tells Marc there were two enemies always working to diminish his potential: ego and vanity. On the cusp of launching a new network sitcom, 9JKL, Elliott talks about his earliest memories, his marriage to Barbra Streisand, his collaborations with Robert Altman, and his difficulties working with others, including one specific comment that Elliott believes put the breaks on his career. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series. FX's Shogun. Only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that.

An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates!

All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck, Knicks? What the fuckocrats? What's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf thank you for joining me on the show today elliot gould master movie

star and actor from days gone by and the present time elliot gould is here i don't need to explain to you who elliot gould is do i do i one of the great actors of the screen in the 70s. Now he does much, a lot of TV work, some screen work. But when I was growing up, he was the best. He was like a movie star, man. Elliot Gould. And he did a couple episodes of Marin. One episode. I shouldn't say a couple. One episode. So we worked together, him and I as actors. He came by finally, because honestly, well, I'll get into this in a minute. Anyways, we're a week and a day away from when Waiting for the Punch comes out.

Everywhere. The book is coming. It's exciting, people. Brendan and I just want to thank everyone who's already pre-ordered the book. We can't wait for you to read it. It's exciting. And if you haven't pre-ordered the book yet,

but you've been listening to me talk about it for the past few months, and you've been thinking that you might get it, if you're a longtime fan of this show and want a great representation of what we do here, or if you're a new listener and you want to get an idea of what's been happening in this garage for the past eight years, if you have any inkling of getting the book, do us a favor and pre-order it now. Like now. Hit pause.

Pre-order it now like now hit pause pre-order it now this is actually a big week for the book and pre-orders mean a lot in the publishing industry it really helps stores decide whether they're going to order more copies of the book which is a huge deal so if you're planning on getting a copy for yourself or as a gift go do it now at markmaronbook.com and you can still upload your pre-order receipt to enter the sweepstakes to win a casper mattress and a luggage set from away all right and as i told you before the book the book looks great it looks great i'm very excited about it so i did something kind of amazing like look is it amazing to go see live music sometimes i just don't do things as i've

expressed to you before but uh i'll tell you man last week i had a real idol of mine in here and i don't know if i talk about him much and we we recorded a podcast you'll get that eventually and you might not know this guy but uh john hammond jr is one of my favorite blues performers could be an artist to be quite honest with you and somehow or another you know we managed to you know he was out here he's playing mccabe's uh guitar shop down in santa monica and he stopped by the garage we had a great conversation he's a real good guy sweet guy but he's a real deal i mean he's been making records since the mid 60s and uh and he was playing down there at mccabe's and i just i had to go i don't always go i try to go more a lot of times i just stop myself from doing things i don't know why but i'll tell you

ma'am i had these realizations about especially acoustic music because he he plays uh uh an acoustic guitar and a national Dobro-style guitar, National Steel Resonator guitar. Those are his two things. And he plays harmonica on a harmonica holder around his neck that he blows into with his face. And I had seen him years ago once or twice, and he just sort of mesmerized me

that he just summons this spirit of the blues, of the acoustic blues, that you just do not hear that much in a very honest way. There's no affectation about what John Hammond does. And I'm sitting there with a bunch of people who are about a decade older than me that look like they might have been seeing him in the late 60s as well. It was that kind of crew some old hippies some old blues heads but it was just sort of fascinating to to feel the power of straight up powerful acoustic music and realize that that that is the touchstone of the human heart there you know what i mean i was starting to think about the 60s a little bit starting to think about because i don't listen to a lot of acoustic music but just when somebody is up there alone with just an instrument and

wrenching the guts out of himself through that instrument, even if he's repeated it over and over again, he's playing slide guitar, he's blowing out those notes on that harmonica, and he's just pounding, man. He's just pounding that national guitar. And I tell you, man, it just really connects me with something. I don't know what it is. I don't know why it is. I don't know why, like, cause I don't go see a lot of blues music. I don't listen to a ton of it anymore. I do tend to play it because I enjoy playing it, but I was listening to those old John Hammond records and I just went down there and I saw him and, you know, I hung out with him and his wife Marla before the show. And it was just sweet.

No big backstage scene. Just the three of us sitting there talking about the old days. And then he just got up there and just opened it up, man. He just opened up the valve. And that guy is a portal. And I'm probably going to repeat myself, you know, at the beginning of the podcast with him. But it's fresh in my mind that just the acoustic guitar, just touching those strings and he's pounding them.

Just how that vibrates into the sort of organic spirit of humanity, the acoustic instrument. Maybe I'm like, look i i know there's other things to talk about our president's a disaster everything's horrible he embarrasses us daily but like i just i got out there and i just listened to some blues and i played some blues and uh later and i just it just it just blew my mind this guy's commitment to touring for the last 50 years, to putting out 30 records, to relative obscurity. And he still gets up there and he puts us all into it. It was inspiring. It was inspiring.

That's what I'm trying to say. So I found it moving and I feel all right today because of that. Because of John Hammond Jr. Go check that shit out. Check out the first 10 years of that guy's career. Go look him up. John Hammond. Guitar.

Wikipedia. Get all the... Listen to those records from 64 to 70. 1960 to... All of them are great, but listen to those. Just to get started. You dig? How about some emails?

I got a few emails. Pulling me through subject line. Hey, Mark, I got out of the Marine Corps about a year ago and was really struggling internally with depressing and suicidal thoughts. This summer, I was introduced to your podcast by a professor that I worked for. Now, whenever I'm having those thoughts,

I listen to your podcast and you somehow make it all better and the feelings go away. I've never told anybody about these thoughts because i'm not sure how they could really help me but i'm glad that now i can escape into the world of your podcast and let all of my thoughts dissolve thank you so much for what you do austin you're welcome man there's no better i nothing makes me more humble and grateful than hearing that. Man, if I can quiet that darkness. You're welcome, buddy.

Thank you for telling me that. Subject line, all roads lead to New Jersey. Good afternoon. I was listening to your interview with Tom Colicchio today, and I had what can only be described as a moment of serendipity. At one point, one of you made the comment that sooner or later, everyone is from New Jersey. At the time, I got a nice light chuckle out of it listening to two jersey

expatriates talking about their family roots so cut forward to just now i studied history in college and have recently started obsessing over genealogy and my family history i'm sitting here in some off time going through records and making connections and there it is clear as day with enough documentation to make it indisputable my great great great great great grandfather david elston senior born 1738 wood bridge lived much of his life in elizabeth new jersey so i guess you were right eventually no matter how far back we all wind up in new jersey i love your show can't wait for the book, Ryan. Yep, dude. It's inevitable, man. We're all Jersey genetically. Genetically Jersey. Subject line, Pete Davidson's gaping asshole almost got me fired. Hi, Mark. Thought you might get a good chuckle out of this. I'm a high school teacher. Yesterday, I was listening to the Pete Davidson episode on my commute to school, getting choked up about 9-11 camp. I get to school, pause the episode, put my phone in my pocket. A couple hours later, I'm sitting in my office with a few 10th graders and a female colleague.

Out of nowhere, a loud voice coming from my pocket blares, I've got an asshole like a porn star. It's a gape. I fumble the phone in the air like a cartoon. It's a podcast. It's a regular podcast. It's about a 9-11. I had no clue how to explain the comment because I had no idea how you got from 9-11 to Crohn's disease.

I had to do a lot of explaining. Thanks for the laugh, Roy. Glad to help out, Roy. Sounds like an exciting few minutes for you. Huh? What a day, right? What a day. All right. So, Elliot Gould. Come on. for you huh what a day right what a day all right so elliot gould come on elliot gould

elliot gould was in some of the greatest movies i was going to say of the 70s but probably ever uh and when i was a kid i just i always looked up to Elliot Gould, a Jewish leading man, a funny Jewish leading man from the age of Jewish leading men. Well, let's narrow it down. From the age of James Caan and Elliot Gould and Dustin Hoffman, the Jewish leading men back in the day. Huh? But think about it. Elliot Gould, mash, Altman's's mash the long goodbye altman california split i believe that's another altman he was in nashville briefly he was in uh capricorn one

capricorn one harry and walter go to new york i remember that movie that was uh with james khan but capricorn one with james brolin when he comes running after he finds James Brolin in the desert the government couldn't kill him oh man that's good shit of course he's in the oceans movies what he's done a lot of movies all right a lot of people love him for the long goodbye Bugsy was in the player but briefly you know look I'm not going to list his credits because there's too many but uh but I was very excited to talk to him. One of his credits was he's appeared on Marin the television show

as he plays himself and he introduces me to my agent played by the amazing Alex Rocco who is no longer with us. I think that might have been his last role but it was great working with him. Great working with any of these guys. Great talking to Elliot Gould. He's in the with any of these guys. Great talking to Elliot Gould.

He's in the new CBS sitcom 9JKL. It premieres tonight and airs Mondays at 830, 730 Central. This is me and Elliot Gould. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on uber eats but meatballs mozzarella balls and arancini balls yes we deliver those moose no but moose head yes because that's alcohol and we deliver that too along with your favorite restaurant food groceries and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal

drinking age please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel.

To show your true heart is just to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Alt. Move that mic in a little bit for your face. Oh, God, you're so bossy.

I'm not bossy. I'm a little edgy. Why? That's part of your thing? No, no, no. I got off the nicotine. I was eating those nicotine lozenges. I haven't smoked in years, but I was eating nicotine.

Do you have kids in the world? I have no kids. Do you have a wife? I don't smoked in years, but I was eating nicotine. Do you have kids in the world? I have no kids. Do you have a wife? I don't have a wife. I've had a couple, but I have no kids. I did not put more of my genetic line out. I understand. How many do you have?

I have four grown kids and two grandkids. Four grown kids? You have really from two different wives. Four grown kids. You have, really, from two different wives. Two wives. Don't get too far away from the mic. Okay. Thanks. Because you're edgy.

No, I'm not. I just want to make sure. And one who I'm a biological father to. Oh, yeah. So in the process of this, if I have to pee, do we stop or do I pee where I'm sitting? We can stop. I mean, I've or do I pee where I'm sitting? We can stop. I mean, I've never had anyone pee where they're sitting. Maybe you can do that and tell me after.

No, but Steve Martin did in the movie. He's so funny. Have you worked with him? No, I've never gotten him on. Because all he wants to do is talk about banjo. And he's sort of like, he holds a line about it. He's sort of like, I want to talk about comedy. I just want to talk about banjo.

And I'm like, I don't know if I could do that. And I'm sure, I imagine I could pull him around to comedy, but he just said he wants to talk about banjo. That'd be like you saying, I just want to talk about the Talmud. Do you want to talk about the Talmud? No. I like the letters. T-A-L-M-U, mud.

I like mud. Do you remember we had a good long talk back in the day when you worked with me. When was it? It was

You can be specific. Was it like three years ago? I don't I like to be specific. I remember it. Yeah. And I wasn't sure about when we did that scene

with that fabulous actor Alex. Alex Rocco. The great Alex Rocco. Wasn't he great? He't he great he was so great i'm so happy to i don't even know if i ever met him before that was great it was a good time it was fabulous he was so good when did you start the acting where did you grow up oh i i grew up in brooklyn new york brooklyn i was conceived in far rockaway far rockaway How'd you get that information? How do you know where you were conceived?

Because my parents lived in a house of the Posners. There were three families. There were the Posners, the Goldsteins, that was me, and the Greensteins. And my parents lived in, it may have been Beach 126th Street, but that's where I was conceived. And then I was born and brought up in Brooklyn, New York. And this is the show. We're doing the show now, aren't we?

This is part of it. This is the real show. Cool. Real is a good idea, isn't it? I try to. I try to do it. How are you being real good? I have found recently that what's true and what's real is not necessarily the same right to me yeah uh what's uh true is life nature is true what's

real sometimes we make it up and and that can really can i be colloquial or sometimes say where it's gonna like fuck me up yeah of course uh in terms of sometimes i could be involved in something that's not real and that really fucks me up. It takes me a lot of time to get oxygen. But that's also kind of your job. Now you're talking about responsibility. No, I'm talking about acting. I'm talking about responsibility.

Okay, all right. Yeah. Right. Because I find when you mention something in terms, sometimes what's funny is sad to me yeah and what's dramatic is fucking hysterical to me so you you're growing up with three families in brooklyn no i grew up close to two families but my mother and my father all they had was me yeah and and that was uh what was motivating me I was extremely, because they didn't seem to get along. I'm sure they got along well enough to have me.

But talk about responsibility. So when I was nine years old, I was extremely repressed, inhibited, and I didn't know how to communicate. And so I was taken to a song and dance school uh in in new york to break you of those and to break that my mother would talk about breaking habits and i said and now i could see it all i mean i said you don't break me of anything i'm not a horse yeah yeah i mean i mean what you have to do is embrace it and really care for it and love it so it can evolve. Otherwise, you're going to break it.

It'll just prop up. It's like, no, no, no, you're not breaking me of anything. Well, the caring and loving, nurturing someone and enabling them to evolve was not part of some parents' mode of operation. I still love them for it. mode of operation. I still love them for it. Actually, my,

one of the families, there was Eddie Posner. He was born three months before me. Yeah. Then me, Elliot. And then Stevie, who was my very closest friend.

He was born three months later and Stevie became a psychiatrist. Still your friends? He's dead. Oh. But yes, he is. I'm close with his children and his grandchildren. Oh, yeah., he is. I'm close with his children and his grandchildren.

Oh, yeah. No, no. This is a family. Old time. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so he's born, you're born. So now he became successful in a psychodrama for families. And he said to me, in the latter part of our time, he said, how could you be so forgiving?

And I said, who am I angry at? And he said, your parents. And I said, oy, gave me an opportunity. Why am I angry at my parents? And he said, because you were so exploited, used, and manipulated. And I said, I don't deny anything that you think or say, but I would have thought you were going about your work the same way I try to go about my work, which is scientifically. I was my parents. I am my parents. To blame my parents, I would say to myself, how could things be like this? How did things come to this?

Right. You know? And I understand it. They did the best they could. So you took responsibility as well. I took it all. You took the hit well it's worth it i mean you know i have a daughter that's more than everything to me and she's the mother of my grandchildren and she and andrew her husband are the first happily and functionally

married people uh in my family since the families came from Eastern Europe. Oh, so they did it. Yeah. Success. Yeah. Finally. Yeah. Oh, good. Where did you start actually doing the gig of actor?

The gig of actor? I mean, I went to song and dance school. Right, and then after that. Not to act. I mean, I was a tap dancer. Did you know Christopher Walken? Very well. Do you ever dance with him?

No, but I acted with his brother, Ken. And Christopher, he's the only one that followed me from that group of younger people. I mean, he's Hungarian. His family may still have a bakery in Long Island. They do? Walken's family still has a bakery in Long Island. They do. Watkins family still has a bakery? Oh, that's nice. Yeah.

And so Christopher, I saw him in Baker Street. He was also in the chorus where I, well, I started singing and dancing and like vaudeville with kids. And then he, I saw him in Baker Street, which was a musical about Sherlock Holmes. Yeah. And he was great. And then, of course, in Pennies from Heaven, and talking about Pennies from Heaven,

Bernadette Peters was my first student. Her mother brought her to me, and I gave her a routine to Honey Bun when she was 10 years old. Really? Was she from the neighborhood? No, but I was working. Actually, you know where the David Letterman used to have his show from?

Sure. At Sullivan Theater? Yeah, yeah. That was right underneath where there's a, on the first floor or the second floor. Yeah. When you see the picture of the marquee, that's where there were studios called the Goldfarb Studios and they could be rented. And so Charlie Lowe, who was an old vaudevillian,

and we put him on a Saturday Night Live with me so you could see him because they then taught me the time step and the hop hop and the strut. And it's not what I had in mind. It's really not what I had in mind. For your life? Yeah, you know. It's really not what I had in mind. For your life?

Yeah, I know. But my rationale, because I've been thinking forever, was that if I could memorize a routine, that perhaps if I could memorize it, I could communicate through that which I had memorized. Okay? So, and I remember almost everything. So, you mean you thought about that retroactively

or you think that now? Like, I mean, at the time. No, retroactively. Right. But I do remember I have my conscious, my first conscious memories were 14 months old on the boardwalk in Far Rockaway. Even though we lived in Brooklyn, we would visit.

It was a nice beach. And Posner walked. He was, as I told you, three months older than me. But then Greenstein walked before me, and my parents were freaked out that I wasn't walking. I'm 14 months old. You should be walking. But of course, Posner and Greenstein were blood relations. Sure. My parents were freaked out that I wasn't walking. I'm 14 months old. You should be walking.

But, of course, Posner and Greenstein were blood relations. Sure. The father of Posner was the brother of the mother of Greenstein. Yeah. And so that was the moment that I found my balance. Because how can you walk without balance? We take everything for granted. We think that what we think is the truth truth we only make it the truth it's not necessarily the truth and so i remember this like the in the moment that i was standing there my parents were there someone took pictures too

that's how i know exactly what the date was and i was looking through the railing on the boardwalk, over the beach, over the ocean, to the horizon. I found my balance. I found it by feeling it. I'm balanced. I don't know what balance means, but I feel it. Then I know I'll walk. Don't push me too fast. You just had to find your balance.

I had to find my balance of course and not even knowing what what is it you know i mean expectations are are sometimes not very healthy their security is terrible sure yeah yeah expectations so then i remember they're killers we lived at 6801 bay parkway brooklyn phone new york uh the phone number if you want to go back and call me was beach B325524. We can call you? You can call me anytime. How's it going?

Around. Yeah? Are you walking? If I call? Yeah. Is little Elliot there? Is he walking? Yeah.

And so I'm there, and we had like a chair. My father was making $20 a week. Doing what? Working in the garment center. That's what he did? Yeah. Schmata guy? He also played, he used to play ball.

He batted right and fielded left. Bernard Goldstein. And he was a great guy. In the league? At school. He went to New Utrecht. Sure. And what, did your mom work

my mother became a comparison shopper at Macy's she was brilliant and really talented what is that I don't know that job

you have to go and see what's selling if you have some products who's selling it for that now we got

computers so you don't have to send people out right but she was a pre-computer comparison shopper exactly right very talented she was a pre-computer comparison shopper.

Exactly right. And very talented. She had a millinery shop, Lucille. Lucy was my mother. Ah, good names. Lucy. Yeah. And so then there I was, like, in a chair, like around two-ish.

So I obviously, no, I'm sure I walked. And the two of them, Bernie and Lucille, were standing over me. And they said to me, and I quote, you don't know how to feel and you don't know how to think

and we'll tell you. And I thought, not only don't I know the difference if you say so, I don't have a problem, you know. Okay, I don't know how to feel that. I don't know how to think, and you'll tell me. That's not right.

But that's true. They said it in those words? I'm telling you the words. Would you ever forget that? And then the other statement was, one of them, it may have been my father, and you won't ever have better friends than us. And I thought, you're my gods, Yeah. So, if you say so. This is a two.

Yeah. They're laying it down. About two-ish, two-ish. That's a heavy, that's a heavy wrap. Well, you can understand that. Sure. In terms of laying claim on it, you know, I mean, how people, you said about being brought up. Also, there's concern, you know, and, you know, for.

I may grow up to be the way I am. That's right. Right. We don't want you to be the way you are. We want you to be the way we want you to be the way I am. That's right. Right. We don't want you to be the way you are. We want you to be the way we want you to be for your own good. And so we won't be scared. So we won't be replaced or whatever. Yeah, right.

So you tap dancing. So then I go into song and dance school, and my rationale, the same kid, baby, that's thinking, okay, I mean, I don't know how to feel. I don't know how to think. And isn't it depressing? My parents don't know how to love one another, and they stay together. And I slept in their bedroom, not in their bed, for my first 11 years until we moved upstairs to the third floor. You slept with your parents until you were 11?

I didn't sleep with them in the same room. Why are you yelling at me? I mean, I heard you. Of course, I mean, I know how you are. We were in the same room, but was there another at me? I mean, I heard you. Of course, I mean, I know how you are. We were in the same room, but was there another room available? No. Okay, all right.

No, no, no. And so I went into song and dance, and now I'm 12, and I've done some Milton Berle shows. You were part of the chorus, or you did a little dance? A group of kids. They were kids.

And then they once put on a show because you know he was a superstar on television. So you do some Milton Berle shows. But I'm trying to... I remember you as a... I'm 53. So when I was a young kid coming into my own, you were a big star.

That's interesting, isn't it? Well, no, you were you know you were a big star that's that's interesting isn't it it was well no you were the guy like right so like there were movies i remember seeing that were odd movies when i look at the catalog of movies that you did like i remember you know mash obviously but i remember harry and walter go new york because i love james conn i love you i love diane keaton we don't we all love dianeaton? Of course. But there was that period in Hollywood history where the Jewish leading man... I understand. But let's go back.

So when do you start doing movies? When do you start sort of becoming... Okay, great. Charlie Lowe, song and dance, 12 years old. I play the palace i play the palace uh as uh uh a participant in somebody's act at the palace for uh a big uh show there that also had a movie with it a show acts of vaudeville the first anniversary of the return of vaudeville to the palace. This is may of 1951. I'm 12 And you're on the show i'm in the show. Yeah, i'm a delivery boy that that the opening of the act

yeah of for bill callahan is uh When there's a blackout of the act before in the act before with smith and dale The blackout of the act before, and the act before was Smith and Dale, the original Sunshine Boys, Joe Smith and Charlie Dale. And I had to be in back of the house and watch Dr. Cronkite four times a day for two solid weeks. Amazing. And that's what the Sunshine Boys was based on, these two guys. Now, the blackout, a beat, two beats, and then I'm coming down. Telegram for Callahan.

Telegram for Bill Callahan. And I'm walking down to the conductor. Telegram for him. And the conductor says, where are you going? What do you have? I said, I've got a telegram for Bill Callahan. And he said, I'll take it. And I then say, and now there's a music, a downbeat of a song, which is I'm dancing and I can't be bothered now.

He said, he'll take it. I said, no, I have to give it to him myself. And I go to the stage. I've got some stills of this. And I'm saying here, and you see, I say telegram for Callahan, paging Callahan. And then there is a scrim where there's a silhouette. And you see him.

And he's a very, very attractive male, manly guy who could really dance. And he says, I'm dancing and I can't be bothered now. I do it three times and I'm off. And now I've got the last dressing room at the palace. And people would come in because it's the first anniversary of the return. And I met so many people, a guy who you may not know, you should know. Although I'm not into shoulds, a guy named James Barton, who was a great, Although I'm not into shoulds.

A guy named James Barton, who was a great, he created the part in Paint Your Wagon on the Broadway musical that Lee Marvin did in the movie. Oh, really? Yeah. Lee Marvin was great. Yeah. This is James Barton. Yeah. And he was there. Bela Lugosi came.

I got his autograph. Yeah. Yeah. Milton Berle came, too, but I had already known him. Yeah. And I did it. $50 a week. I was going to Seth Lowe Junior High, and that was interesting and fun. And then I went to the professional children's school, and I met some other people, including David Carradine, who we became really good friends.

And then I felt my parents had put so much into giving me this road to where I am that I wanted to see if I could fulfill. Because we had no money and I didn't know anything. I graduated high school. When I was in kindergarten, they told my mother and me that I had a little bit of extra intelligence because I was the only one in kindergarten that knew that I didn't know the difference between my right and my left side. Because everything to me, and it still is, I can't conform, but I don't like conforming unless it's necessary, that it's all one thing to me right but this is something that you always felt or oh great therefore i told you about being 14 months old i told you about being

two years old three and a half yeah and that's about it in terms of my literal memory of things that were going through my head that i i, to know something doesn't mean to understand something. Sure. I didn't read, I didn't write. That I knew one night I woke up, I was three and a half, and of course very disturbed, but my parents did not know how to love one another. Yeah.

That was, to me, blew me away. You felt it. I knew it. Yeah. I didn't understand it, nor until now could I accept it. It didn't sound acceptable to me in terms of being begat and all of that. And my thought was, and I was so scared or a scared, so scared of the dark, which I understand now, that everything had been written and everything had been read and that fame and fortune really had no meaning. And if there wasn't peace and harmony, I was going to have a lot of problems. You knew that at three? Three and a half.

Oh, good. I knew that. These are all very important. The 14 months balance, two years. No, 14 months balance, two years. They're trying to shape me. Yeah. And I don't trust it.

And then three years, got to find harmony or else you got nothing. Peace and harmony. So what was your first film role? It was called The Confession. I played a deaf mute with Ray Moland and Ginger Rogers. You worked with all these great old actors. Oh, no. The director's name was William Dieterle,

and he directed Charles fucking Lawton in The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Really? Charles Lawton blows me away. He used to be, like, the precursor to Marlon Brando. He's a sensory genius. And so I'm a deaf mute. I have no experience. I mean, I was, let me see, by that time I'd been in the chorus.

Barbara and I had already been married. Really? So I was no longer a virgin. And yeah, now it's called on late, late night television, quick, let's get married. When did you get married? How old were you when you married Barbara? 25.

And she was? 19. No, no, she was 25. So she must have been barbara 25 and she was 19 no no she was uh 25 so she must have been let's see this was 1963 she was born she was 21 uh-huh and you met her on stage in a show yes yeah yeah you guys still you talk god she's the mother of our son how's he doing he's great oh good he's a he's so decent and he's divine oh good so okay so you do the mute with no training the deaf mute deaf mute and my first shot yeah my first shot and my partner in it uh uh was a guy named carl shell yeah maximilian and uh maria shell's brother who was going with a woman from coldgate, who was financing this picture,

on the island of Jamaica at the same time that Dr. No and High Wind in Jamaica were being done. And this is, at the time, called The Confession. And I want to act. I didn't know how to act. I'd never been in a movie. I'd done a little television. How'd you get cast?

They introduced me to a guy named Victor Stoloff, who was casting and assisting William Dieterle, who came to America with Max Reinhardt, and they collaborated on A Midsummer Night's Dream, which starred James Cagney and Mickey Rooney. Wow. And so he cast me. And in my first shot, I'm supposed to be drunk,

and it's not done in sequence. And I'm sort of acting like a method actor or something because I'm supposed to be drunk, and we're trying to rough up this guy, Ray Moland. And I'm like that. And somebody behind the camera, camera was the sound man says cut he walks to the director and points to me said he's breathing too loud just like you and when i was doing that with your with your computer right i thought i don't know i don't breathe

right how will i ever fucking learn to act you know that was my first experience but did it were you taking acting classes no no. No. There was classes. Probably I did. I went to Lee Strasberg a couple of times. No thank you. I went to see, oh my God, Stella Adler because she'd worked with Brando. Sure. And I thought, I don't know how to act.

I don't know what to do. And I went to see her. Yeah. And I made an appointment and she was teaching a class and i went i walked up to her and very quietly i said i'm playing the lead in a broadway musical and i don't know how to act and she said speak up she said speak up why is it that uh american actors uh mumble and don't talk up and British actors and I thought

I'm not going to be here you know go fuck yourself you know what I mean you know I mean I you know so but she was great I have a great friend who's going on 103 Norman Lloyd I mean who worked in the group theater worked in the theater of action

with all of these people, including Stella Adler and her husbands and her family. She was great, but I didn't, that's not what I wanted. Yeah. You know, I mean, theatricality, it was interesting.

Well, what did you want? How did you end up figuring out your craft? I told you what I wanted when I was three and a half, peace and harmony. Sure, yeah. I mean, I have to please my mother.

Through the darkness. Well, through the darkness, yeah. One has to because it's dark inside. I know. And that's where I live. Yeah, I know. But you're keeping everything pretty well arranged. Well, I never gave up.

I never gave up. It is. A lot of resources. I said to her, I thought you were going to say research. A lot of experience. Experience, sure. And I totally believe in modesty and humility. I mean, with all my heart and soul.

So how did you ultimately learn how to act? Just by doing? Yeah. And then, like, I guess the big break was with the Mazursky movie, right? That was a first because in Bob, Carol, Ted, and Alice, I found my first objective relationship, which was a camera. Again, literally, because each of the four characters had a fantasy. And Diane Cannon, who at the time was Cary Grant's wife. And we're friends, we're friendly. She played my wife.

And her character's fantasy was that every man in her mind wanted to dance with her. And so Mazursky staged a scene. Tucker and Mazursky, Larry Turker, who was his partner and collaborator, staged a scene with about 300 or 400 male extras, me and Diane Cannon. And then of her union regulations, I'm a union person. Three or four hundred male extras, me and Diane Cannon. And then of her union regulations, I'm a union person.

I really appreciate and love the union. We had to break for like, you know, for five or ten minutes. And everybody left the soundstage as usual. I had no place to go, so I stayed. They turned the lights down. They left the camera where it was, the set was there, lights are out, and I thought, oh, the camera doesn't give me problems. I give me problems. The camera will never manipulate me, will never lie to me, they will only report what

I'm doing. My first objective relationship relationship my first friend you know the camera so that saved me so that alone time with the camera turned off in the dark you had that moment the realization when the camera was resting and what the camera is what it represents yeah yeah and i didn't mean to i didn't want to just jump over that you worked with friedkin too. Billy Friedkin, yes. I recently had dinner with him

and his fabulous wife, Sherry Lansing. He's been in here. And you did that the night they raided Minsky. Yes. And Burt Lahr took me home. Burt Lahr took you home?

Yeah. He gave you a ride? No, he went home. He had a ride, but I mean, he brought me home with him. He was great. What was that about about did you hang out talk bert lahr was such a great actor great comedic actor great comedic actor and this he died in the picture we didn't we didn't finish his role

and so i mean i'd be there i i i love us yeah and then i mean was great. He was a hypochondriac also. Yeah. And when his dresser would be dressing him, he would fart in the dresser's face and get hysterical. And so I went home with him one night, took me home. He brought me upstairs. I think they were on Park Avenue. And he said to his wife, look what I brought.

He was great. And then what happened i sat there i i saw him and i maybe had a glass of water and said hello to his wife and i i went home with him you know and then left nothing what happened he's excited he like everyone else have died yeah we all we are we're all we're all there we're getting there yeah so okay yeah and then but friedkin at that time and that was that his first no he had done a picture with sunny and share and uh he's a he's something else that guy yeah what is he he's uh he's he he you know a little different in how he formulates the narrative of his life. You know, when I talked to him, you know, there was an element of fate ran through it.

Of what? Fate. Fate. Fate. Fate. That, you know, that things happened for a reason. You know, when he tells his story. And I sat here with him for like two hours.

And, you know, he'll string the story through you know things that happened oh he's such an asshole I mean you know Billy Friedkin it's an asshole he's very bright

he's talented and all that his wife is great but he's a fucking asshole but he's one of he's a good one he's a he did some good pictures

we had dinner I saw him at my friend's going 102nd birthday and he was pitching somebody from one of the big uh uh independent yeah channels or something he was wanting to do a movie uh no a 10 part series based on his movie that he did, which was based on a play called Killer Joe with Matthew McConaughey.

I know that one, yeah. Yeah. And so I wasn't crazy about the picture. Uh-huh. And Billy and I played... Killer Joe, you didn't love it? No. I think Matthew McConaughey's really good.

It's probably a great play. Maybe it is. I don't know. Killer Joe, there was a guy in the Catskills where I also did tap dancing and stuff. His name was Killer Joe Pyro. He danced the mambo. He was great.

Killer Joe Pyro was great. Killer Joe, the movie, is not great. And I would be willing to see it again. But then Billy said to me, once I said, oh, a 10-part series, that would be better than the movie. And I didn't know that he's talking business. And I'm there at my friend's 102nd birthday. And then he said to me, Billy said, you had a drug problem. I said, what the fuck is that?

I said, no. Barbara said the same thing. We never did drugs together. I never had a drug problem. I've said it on national television. I had a problem with reality. And now that I accept it, it's my friend whether I like it or not. I always want to know where I am.

But believe me, because Barbara said the same thing to me. You had a drug problem? I didn't have a drug problem. You know, I had no perspective. I had no judgment. But I didn't have a drug problem. What was the drug? Life.

Oh, yeah. Which one did you enjoy? When I did, I would smoke some weed. Not a coke guy. No. I mean, I had to experiment with that. I don't like it. It drives you up.

Didn't like it, and I didn't like what it did, what I saw it do with my wife. Not good. Not good. Sigmund Freud, I think, used it to get off of heroin. I never did heroin. No, no good. All right, so the mash thing, because when I talked to you when we did my show,

there was, you know, the conversation was interesting because we were talking about Time Magazine. We were talking about what I perceived as the image of you to the public now. And then the sort of blasting off of the career and the ego and how you dealt with that. Oh, ego. One of my worst enemies. Ego and vanity. No, thank you. But when did that happen?

In the process of me getting here, you know? Me getting here. Okay, so let's talk about MASH. I mean, I've talked to a few people that work with Robert. Prior to doing Bob, Carol, Ted, and Alice, I auditioned for a play by Murray Shiskal called A Way of Life

that was being directed by Alan Schneider and being produced by one of the brothers of Angela Lansbury. Yeah. And I remember Ron Liebman was a great actor.

He was auditioning for it and I auditioned for it. And then I did Bob Carroll, did Annalise, found my relationship with the camera, did really well, was fortunate to be

in that movie, and then went into rehearsals for A Way of Life. And they fired Alan Schneider and they brought someone else in. And then I went to rehearsals and as far as learning the words and doing it,

Murray Shiskal, who had written Love and who I knew, very close to Dustin Hoffman, he said to me, why can't you be as good, we're getting up to Robert Altman, why can't you be as good in rehearsals as you were when you auditioned for us? you. I could show you what's possible for me to do with this, but I've got to structure a performance that I'm going to do eight times a week for you, and I've got to be able to be comfortable and, like Sterling Hayden said to me, hand in glove with the material, with the words. And so I now know I'm going to have to get a haircut because I let myself grow out. It's great to grow out, and I went to rehearsals. I know these words by our technical rehearsal and the door's locked. Oh, and I think to myself, I'm not supposed to be locked out of rehearsals at this time. How could they fire me? I better get a haircut. So I went to Carmine's to get a haircut. And at that point, I was starting to

produce because that's what i really thought i would do to produce and then when you get to ingmar i'll tell you what he said to me about directing and so now they and brotsky who was my late ex-partner he came and was there and it's a two chair barber shop a mirror in between the two chairs yeah there's a chair in the other a chair on the other side and a chair where I'm sitting. And the phone rings, and it's a guy named Mark Merson who was representing the producers.

And he said, now they just cut my right side off. I no longer have long sideburns. And he says to me, I don't know how to say this, but it's just not working. And I said, wait a minute, don't talk to me, call my agent, don't tell me what's working and what's not working, but I wish you'd called me

five minutes earlier, because now I'm going to have to cut the other side off to be even with me. And so that was that. And so I came back out here to Los Angeles and was asked to meet Robert Altman, who was preparing to do a movie called MASH. And I met Bob at Fox, and he gave me the script, just the two of us. And then I read the script, and I came in, and Bob said to me, how would you want to do is work, but I'll be very intense. I mean, to validate me as an American Southerner, I could do it. I have a musical ear. I could do it. But this guy, Trapper John, if you haven't cast Trapper John, I got the juice for it. I got what you want from that guy. He gave me the part.

It's like he let me cast myself. I got the juice for it. Yeah. You knew that guy. I know. I got the juice for it. Yeah. You knew that guy. I know. I am that guy. Yeah. Yeah.

But Donald Sutherland, the comedic dynamic between you and Donald Sutherland is something to behold. Oh, that's so kind of you. Because Altman said, have lunch with him. I want you and Donald to have lunch alone in the commissary. And I thought we had lunch at Fox. We're both cast now. And I didn't know Tom Skerritt at the time,

but I'd never met Donald, but I saw Donald in A Dirty Dozen. And I'd seen him maybe in a horror movie or two. And we sat down, just the two of us, and I felt right away at the beginning, he didn't like me. There was somebody, I don't know, you know, whatever. But we became just, it was just the two of us and I felt right away at the beginning yeah he didn't like me there was somebody I don't know you know whatever but we became just it was just the two of us yeah and Bob and everyone except we were working for Bob but we

were like just the two of us and that was great we became quite close you and southern Donald he played a part for me because I produced little murders it's really good I just saw a review and I'm not into reviews for Little Murders. Do you know Little Murders? Jules Feiffer? Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, it was shot by Gordon Willis and operated by Michael Chapman. And Donald is the priest and Alan Arkin directed it. I produced it. I had done the first stage production of Little Murders. It's fabulous. I think it's worthwhile. Norman Lloyd, my soon-to-be 103-year-old friend, brought Jean Renoir.

You know Jean Renoir, is that right? The Rules of the Game and The Grand Illusion. To see it at a screening when we were opening up. And Jean wrote a letter to Alan Arkin. It took 35 years for Alan to share the letter with me, but, I mean, Pfeiffer is fucking brilliant. What do you mean it took him 25 years to share the letter? Some of us don't know how to share.

I worked with Cher. Yeah. She's great. What a beautiful woman. Yeah, yeah. But Alan Harkin, are you okay with him? Of course. He's so good, isn't he? Oh, yeah. He's funny. But now I want to see this movie. she's great what a beautiful woman yeah but Alan Arkin are you okay with him of course he's so good isn't he

oh yeah he's funny but now I want to see this movie I'm mad I didn't know you you produced it Jack Brodsky's your production partner

and then we also the other thing that we produced was everything you always wanted to know about sex but was afraid to ask for Woody well we gave it to Woody

I mean we are because I was so successful in that but i had other people doing i i've never done business yeah uh and uh i had told and i read someplace that supposedly ingmar bergman said i was difficult to work with and that's not true but i can talk for ingmar what did you i was impossible i was impossible to do business with because i didn't understand myself so i couldn't do business with because I didn't understand myself. So I couldn't do business with us. What were you going to tell me about Ingmar Bergman in terms of what he told you about directing?

Oh, he said to me, when you direct and you will direct, you mustn't act. And no matter who's doing it or who's done it, you'll understand. And then I came back from America and talk about rolling the dice. I thought I was in charge and I went way beyond boundaries and I didn't know, I had no perspective and no judgment, so I had to give a lot up. When was that?

1971. Yeah? After MASH? Well, after MASH. But after, what about, was it after the Time Magazine cover? Yeah.

Yeah. The Time Magazine came out on September 9th, 1970. Yeah. The day that I went to Stockholm to be the first one of us to work with Ingmar. So you're feeling it, right? Things are rolling. Things are happening.

Time Magazine. Bruce Stern is a friend and he said one of the things that meant a lot to him because Jackie Nicholson said to me that I would never dunk a basketball and I dunked a basketball once

and I was driving and he was running on Vicente and I pulled up and I said, Bruce, I dunked a basketball. I was able to do it. Do you miss the time? No. I'm curious about what time you're thinking about,

because to me it's all one time, you know? I laugh because whether you mean it to be funny or not, I find it funny. Me? Oh, great. Why not? find it funny. Me? Yeah. Oh, great. Why not? What's funny?

That's great. I wouldn't mind dying laughing. I'm not going to die right now. Okay. Well, how do you know? You didn't. There you go. Right now is a long time.

Right now is forever. Keeps going. But when you say that, were you know that what did you were you humbled oh god 1971 humbled oh my god yeah oh oh yeah yeah it was i'm more than humble i paid for everything yeah i had to find out yeah i had to find out i knew i i mean i thought i knew that's when i said you know to ingmar before i left stockholm yeah i said i don't know that you know what how things are in the united states you know and so i had chosen the director for the next project what happened is the material was taken and what's up doc was made from the material,

but that has nothing to do with what I wanted to do. What were you doing? I was doing something that was called at the time A Glimpse of Tiger. And the way I saw it, it was the little prince in urban America right now. And I was the aviator and the prince is this girl. And I didn't know that I should have tried to cast my wife, Jenny. And I wanted to cast Kim Darby. And I said to her, it's going to be difficult. I've never done this before, to be playing a part. And this is a different part. The character can be really frightening. It's just like this. And so if you get frightened or you don't understand where I'm coming from,

if you get frightened or you don't understand where I'm coming from, just say, time out. Make a T with your hands. Call me over to the side. I'm like a doll. I mean, I need you to be happy, secure, and comfortable. But she was scared, and I didn't know that I was way beyond limits in terms of the comprehension of the people I was working with because I put my heart in. It's my life, you know comprehension of the people I was working with.

Because I put my heart, it's my life, you know. And the movie didn't get finished? Or did? No, it didn't. Then they made What's Up Doc, which was profitable. The movie was never made. And I paid for everything that was spent. And that was the beginning of the humbling? Yes.

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. that was the humbling yeah yeah and that was 72 humbling that was uh 71 and then i even had caridine and barbara hershey came to stay with me for a while and he had two dogs and i loved caridine and i felt guilty look at caridine and the caridine family they're great American actors. And look what I'm doing. How do I get in this position to do this? But I mean, there was nobody really there with me. Jenny was there, but I can't say that she understood.

And I certainly didn't understood. And I didn't know that I didn't yet have the right to create. I thought that I could. And so I had to pay for it. I had to find out that there are boundaries and I'm fine with it I paid for it but then you went on in like Altman well then Altman yeah Robert Altman he for at first no I'm just a guy, a union man who's looking to continue to make a living with my family. And so Peter Bogdanovich, we thought, was going to direct The Long Goodbye. Right.

And David Picker was running United Artists, and he was friendly with me, or like a friend. Yeah. And so I went to see him looking for a job, and he gave me the script of The Long Goodbye that was written by Lee Brackett, who had collaborated with William Faulkner on Humphrey Bogart's The Big Sleep. Big Sleep, yeah. And I read it, and it's old-fashioned, and it was like he called it a pastiche. I like candy, you know, pastiche, like chuckles and dots and stuff. That would be pastiche to me. And so I said, sure, sure i mean you know and then

bogdanovich couldn't see me in it or or whatever i was told by the head of the studio he had an idea that lee marvin or robert mitchum i said they're like my uncles yeah i can't argue with them but we've seen them yeah you haven't seen me. And I understand Peter. It's Peter's picture. So Peter's off the picture, and I get a call from Robert Altman, who's now been put on the picture. And Altman calls me from Ireland.

He was doing a picture called Images with Susanna York, and he says to me, I'm at 58 Morton Street in the West Village, and he says, what do you think? And I said, I've always wanted to play this guy, Philip Martin. He said, you are this guy. That was the beginning of the picture. Can you imagine?

You are this guy. Bob, oh, my God. So it's okay with me. That picture, oh, my God. It's an American jazz piece. Yeah, it's beautiful. Oh, thanks. There's a sequel to it.

And Bob, with MASH, he called me because Donald and I complained about him. And we complained because I'd never worked that way before, you know. Which way? Repetition, improvisational way. I've never worked leaving the script. Yeah. So, I mean, he gave me, and I took a lot of it, gave me the room and the space to live. Yeah.

And he said two things to me, Bob Altman. Once he said to me, why can't you be like someone else? And we had just broken for lunch and he was having a difficult, he was having a problem. Bob had had problems with management sometimes. And I had my lunch on my tray. I hadn't ingested it. And we were at the ranch, the Fox Ranch in Malibu. And he pointed to one of the terrific guys from the committee,

from the improvisational group from San Francisco, Corey Fisher. He said, why can't you be more like him? And I started to shake. And I threw my lunch up in the air. I said, you cocksucker. I said, I'm not going to stick my neck out for you again. I mean my lunch up in the air. I said, you cocksucker. I said, I'm not going to stick my neck out for you again. I mean, I was in the theater.

I'm a tap dancer. I'm a chorus boy. I understand repetition and I understand precision. Tell me what you want and that's what you'll get. I'm not going to stick my neck out. He said to me then, I think I made a mistake. I said, I think so. He said, I apologize. I said, fine, let's carry on.

And at that moment, the people, the production crew from the next picture, which was Getting Straight, that was Richard Rush's picture, came because we were going to have a meeting. One other time, he says to me, because we're playing poker

and I played poker for almost all my life. It took me almost all my life to realize I'm not a very good poker player because I can't represent something I don't have. But bluffing sounds good to a kid. I'm going to bluff you. I'll bluff you. And so there's a scene,

and a lot of the guys didn't know how to play poker, and I'm putting energy into this, and I'm in character. And he said, I can't keep my eyes off of you. He said, it's distracting to me. I said, don't look at me then. I'm always in character. Look at me when you see the film.

I'm in concert with everything else that's going on. If you see it before you kill it, I'll die happily. And he came to me the next day, Bob Altman, and said, you're right. But he published me as being his enemy. Because when we complained, he thought we wanted to have him fire, we being Donald and me, and that we couldn't get him fired. We wouldn't, but we complained

because I didn't know how to work like this. And then we met with our agent, and then Bob allowed us to reshoot one part of a scene. And from there on, I couldn't do McCabe and Mrs. Miller. Warren is a friend. I love Warren. Great movie. Oh, great.'t do McCabe and Mrs. Miller. Warren is a friend. I love Warren.

Great movie. Oh, great. And Bob offered it to me. And he said to me, and I said, no, I couldn't. I had to do I Love My Wife. At Universal, it's the only Universal picture I did. And he said, you're making the mistake of your life. And I said, well, it's not my life yet, Bob.

And I said, well, it's not my life yet, Bob. You know, and you can't take away that I was, you know, your first choice. And I'll look at the picture sometime and say, oh, my God, what a masterpiece. And meanwhile, Warren and Julie Christie, they're so beautiful. You know, and that's great. That's really great. It would have been interesting, but I don't want any woulda, coulda, shouldas here. No, but you came back around and did The Long Goodbye.

You reinvented Philip Marlowe. You got to work with Sterling Hayden. Oh, yeah. Sterling Hayden. Sterling Hayden. And you know that the cottage that his character, Roger Wade, was in in the picture. Like, what is that, Malibu?

Or was it right on that? No, that was like near, oh, no, no. But that was it right on that was like uh uh oh no no it's but that was the actual uh that was in pasadena at a real place that was a real place the whole place was real that wasn't a set i thought where was the beach show wasn't there a beach that was in mal's shore where was garrick to drown yeah but the cottage yeah where i find him yeah is the exact is the cottage where wc fields lived the last part of his life. He lived in that cottage, W. fucking C. Fields. Over here in Pasadena. Yeah.

No kidding. Yeah. So Sterling Hayden, what did he lay on you? At one point, I went into Pasadena because I had a little time when we were working at that place. And I went into a shop and I found a set of checkers with swastikas on them and I said can is can I buy them I still have one yeah I'll send I'll give it to you okay I don't have to whatever I don't again I told you I want you to keep it keep it thank you and so I came in and there was, again, sometimes Bob could be not as we progress.

But this was the long goodbye. Because Bob also said that I scared him in the picture. Because he would give me so much room. And there's even more. Because Soderbergh had asked me about a scene where I put ink on my face. And I'll tell you about that. But so Bob was a little difficult. And Sterling said

to me, as the old man giving you, as making it harder on you, I said a little, and he said, vamp, just vamp. And vamp means holding time. Just hold it. Because it worked out great for us. And even in the scene where Sterling's character drowns, Bob had asked me if I thought we could do that scene that was scheduled to do for two nights in one night. And I nearly drowned. I really, really, really drowned. And I was there because we waited for a high tide. And I played basketball all day.

And even at that point, I mean, in terms of conditioning and stuff, with Nina Van Pallant and Bob said to me, Nina Van Pallant's going to beat you down to the beach. And I thought, I don't think so. I think it's important in terms of what's ever left for men. I mean, we should be able to get down there. I mean, unless you want her to. Tell me you want her to, but otherwise I'll get down there.

I'm in pretty good shape. Now we wait for high tide and I run into, and I take off my tie because when we tested Nina Van Pallant, that's where I was able to get my wardrobe, that mismatched blue jacket and pants, the simple white shirt and a tie that has American flags on it. And you don't even ever, ever see it, but that was my message. The American, we can revisit the American too. And so I'm running in, not even knowing it's not Sterling out there. There's a property man who had once swum back from

14 miles and I'm just this kid who would go to Coney Island and rock away and play in the surf. And I love Sterling. I have my shoes on, my jacket on. All I do is give her the tie, and I run in to get to where the waves are breaking high tide. And I have now losing it.

And I look up where the cameras are and the lights, and they're like little peas up there. And I want to go down. And my voice in my head, first time i ever heard it says to me elliot you can't go down there's no one here to bring you back up and i had to pull myself out and then get back and bob came to see me you know and because then i had to take a hot shower to do it again and we did it again it was so scary i mean i almost died i mean i if i had gone down there was no one there you know yeah i may have drowned so but bob altman great it was

like my father yeah great yeah oh so great soderbergh says to me on oceans 11 where we've got the whole gang together now and clunoney's going to tell everybody what we're doing there. And now it's about 1.20 in the morning and we're at a house that was owned by Jerry Weintraub who was the producer and I'm tired and I don't like being tired because then I can be a little vulnerable.

So, and I, this is vulnerable. And so at 1.20 I've got my little scene that i'm looking forward to with matt damon and uh and and everybody's there and it's about 120 at night and and and soda burke walks up to me and he says the ink on the face just like out of nowhere the ink on the face was that an improv and i'm thinking what the fuck what huh i mean I'm about to do this scene for us. And I think, oh, oh, oh, okay.

I had it. And we say the same, the long goodbye. I said, yeah, the scene where I'm in jail and the police, the fascist police are roughing me up and I've got my fingerprint stuff on and I put it under my eyes. And the cop says to me, this isn't scripted. He says, what are you doing? You know, I said, I got a big game. I got a big game. And then I went even further and did Al Jolson. under my eyes and the cop says to me this isn't scripted he says what are you doing you know i

said i got a big game i got a big game and then i went even further and did uh al jolson i said yes it was was that behavior okay to you he said yeah he said but it was so unexpected i said that reflected altman's trust in me because i mean mean, we hadn't rehearsed that. I was just, I'm going with it like now. I said, but, so if I had stopped with that stuff on my face,

it would have cost us about 20 or so minutes in production time. And that's what movies is about, time management and money. So that, you know, I really, really, oh, Robert Altman.

And we went on to do more. And there was more that we you know, I really, really, oh, Robert Altman, and we went on to do more, and there was more that we had planned, including the sequel to The Long Goodbye. So one other thing, because obviously we could talk for hours, and I know you have a new TV show, and you've worked, and you've worked with friends of mine.

You've done millions of movies. Friends of yours. Who's friends of yours? John Mulaney, I know. I love John Mulaney. He's great. I have to make contact with him. Noah's friends of yours? John Mulaney, I know. I love John Mulaney. He's great. I have to make contact with him. Noah Baumbach was in here.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I remember his first picture. Yeah, exactly. Does he like me? I don't know. Okay. That's honest.

Great. He should, I think. How could he not? You know, I don't know Soderbergh, but he loves you. Oh, he's great. So this new show you're on, you enjoy doing television? Are you okay? I enjoy work.

You just enjoy work. Oh, my God. It's even more humbling. So this new show you're on, you enjoy doing television? Are you okay? I enjoy work. Oh, my God. It's even more humbling. I mean, it's a process in a certain period of time. The show was conceived and written and executive produced and starring Mark Feuerstein and his wife, Dana Klein. She's a genius. And we now, on Wednesday, in a couple of days,

we start our fourth segment. And after every take, because we do it in front of a live audience for the last, when we've got her all done, they rewrite. And so, whoa. I mean, talk about humbling. It's great.

And Linda Lavin is great. So funny, huh? Yeah. And there's a, a Walton, David Walton. He's terrific.

He plays my younger son. And Liza, LaPera, she's in it and plays David Walton's wife. And there's a fellow named Matt Murray who plays a very good part. He's very, very talented.

But, and so, I mean, the work is amazing and I'm so grateful. I'm all in. I thought, okay, I mean, I do this. It's about the family. You tell me what's funny. I don't sell anything. I couldn't, you know, I mean, like sometimes somebody will stop me, don't sell anything i couldn't you know i mean like sometimes

somebody will stop me may stop me on the street yeah you know and say are you serious yeah and i can now say i don't have to be so serious any longer i know i'm honest and it's taken me forever to get here yeah and it's it's an interesting journey i mean when i saw you do the you know the oceans movies were were must have been a great thing for you it was great to work all with all those guys and just to have that kind of that camaraderie don't you like the big cast of the fellas oh it's great cloney's a great guy i love brad pitt everybody everyone and we of course we lost uh bernie mack that was bad. That was bad. I'm in Ocean's 8 with the girls. Do you know of that? Uh-uh.

You don't. Sandra Bullock. Oh, it's the same. Stephen is producing it and Gary Ross is directing it and it's Sandra Bullock, Cate Blanchett,

Anne Hathaway, Rihanna. Wow, geez, that's exciting. You're in that. And Bonham Carter. I play the same guy I'm Ruben Tishkoff

you're the guy well I love talking to you I think we got a lot well that's good thanks do you feel alright about it if you feel alright about it I feel great about it do you edit it now

do you edit it or do you just play it as it is that's what my producer does I remember we talked about that some was there a big sort of arc

that we I remember there was some undercurrent that we talked about where you had said something that offended somebody and you thought it had repercussions that lasted years. During my process of humility, Tony Harvey. The director. Who I behaved terribly with. But I said to Tony, I want to test, I want to do this in preparation as Ingmar does his work.

We test things. Yeah. And the timing, it's just perfect for us. And when I got there, Tony was already with my crew because they'd done Little Murders with me I'd like you to see Little Murders I said

give me a chance to be just to come here this is my life you're the director but you're directing before I show up

and I've got to be able to see where I am because I've always had a problem with authority and so I screamed at him. I behaved badly.

And he walked off. And then that night, I didn't know anyone. I knew two producers, David Merrick, the great David Merrick, who produced me in the chorus and then produced I Can Get a Few Hoes Sale, where Barbara and I met. And David Beigelman, the agent who I had loved, who wound up killing himself, there was then Ray Stark. So I said, ask him to come because I need somebody to tell me what to do. Now I've caught everybody with their hands in the cookie job and they don't

understand me. They don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. And this is my life. Understood now. I could teach a course perhaps in stardom. I could find some institution that would make a new course so I could talk with people in relation to who anybody is. In relation to what it is that we are. So Ray came down, sitting behind my desk. And I've got people there. And I just wanted to exhibit all this stuff that I've the way I am and Ray said to me what do you want me to do jump out the window I was on the first and foundation floor of this

building that I wound up not buying and but it's where I lived. Peter, his sole son, had jumped or fallen, but jumped out of the 20th story. And Ray said to me, what do you want me to do? Jump out the window? And I said, no, we lost Peter that way, and I don't want to lose you too. And that was the end of my career. I knew'd gone too far all i needed was to just hear to listen selectively for ray to have come down there for him to say to me what do you want me to do and then cut okay ray okay tell me what to do tell me i'll do it i mean i'm more than just a professional and uh what do you want me to do, jump out the window? And I mean, I said, no, we lost Peter that way,

and I don't want to lose you too. Sam Cohn, who was a big-time agent, Meryl Streep's agent, big, big, big-time agent, was there. He was going to be my connection in New York. After about eight seconds, now we come back to Abner Costello and slowly I turn. He says, you can't talk to ray like that which then got ray up on his feet came around my desk and i'm thinking i'm

gonna have to let this cock sucking motherfucker throw a punch at me because he doesn't understand where i'm coming from and what i said i'm saying that life is more important than anything than any fucking movie life and you know liberty and the pursuit of happiness and the whole concept of what it is we think we're doing here and he walks around I back up as as far as I can to my the armoire where my music components and at that point I was very agile so he throws a punch it's the only time anyone ever throw I hope we're not uh inviting people to come and throw a punch at me but it's okay and and and i sort of was very agile and he sort of missed and was down then down on the floor and i huh you were down the floor no he wasn't yeah he wasn't i mean i i could

step aside and then i stepped over him and i thought oh oh oh no one has ever tried to uh really hit me to hit me and so i had people take him home we became friends afterwards but i went too far and and and you you see what i'm saying he had lost his only son what do you want me to do jump out the window no ray no but i not to break anything you know but personal His son had jumped out of the window? Yeah. Not my window. Right. But that's what Ray was saying.

What do you want me to do? Jump out the window? And Ray's position in show business at that time was? He produced the way we were. He was Barbara's producer. Ray Stark was Fanny Bryce's son-in-law. We became friendly. But do you think that that exchange, that moment,

that was it? That was it. That was it. Because then also I couldn't compromise. I had to find out for myself. What, am I going to be afraid? Here's big, and I say it to the universe out there, anybody who thinks they want to be here

and be a star or be somebody, is that in relation to what we are, don't allow your identity or your success inhibit your growth or understand what it is because it's so acutely political, and it's all about money and position and identity. So that didn't work for about a year, and I was told that they had psychiatrists look at briefs without my being examined and said I was crazy and for me to get back to work on The Long Goodbye I had to meet a psychiatrist, Judd Marmer he was, and he said, you know that you exhibited poor judgment and I took a moment too And I said, yeah, if I

had judgment, I wouldn't fucking be here, you know? And so it's all right. It's all right. And I need to continue to practice humility. I've thought about writing and I've told you more than everything that I've told anyone about this, but that's the truth. You know, that's really the truth. And my crew, I mean, we love me. I mean, if I had been able to play the game, Cosell was a friend of mine. My father couldn't stand Cosell because he bought into Cosell's act. And Cosell had me in his room that he was interviewing Ira Burkow from the New York Times.

And he said, you know, I said, I got to go. He said, no, no, no, I want you to be here when I interview him. I said, this is his interview. He said, this is my room. This is my interview. I really want to call Ira Burkow. Because then also Howard wanted to bring me or offered to bring me to meet Ted Williams with him because he was going to see Ted Williams.

And Ellie, his wife, said that there was only one other person that she had asked for an autograph for the family, which was Mohammed Ali. And the night before the first Fraser fight, Jim Brown brought us to meet Ali.

It was a Sunday night in New York. After 10, he had different rooms and different suites. This was the Americana Hotel. No one there. Jim Brown, Mohamed Ali, me, Jenny, and a guy named Vic. And Jim whispered something into Mohamed's ear. And Mohamed looked at me and he said, you do what you do as well as I do what I do, which was my second best review ever.

And I think I may have told you my first best review. Which was? Groucho Marx, after I changed a light bulb over his bed. Yeah. He said, that's the best acting I've ever seen you do.

All right, man. So you know I'm not acting. I know. Well, thanks. This was great. It was great to see you. See you again. All right, that was the amazing Elliot Gould.

Nine JKLs on tonight. And here's Monday's 8.30, 7.30 Central. Don't forget to pre-order Waiting for the Punch, Words to Live By from the WTF podcast. It comes out next week. But go buy your copy now and you can enter to win a Casper mattress or a three-piece luggage set from Away. Go to markmarrenbook.com to pre-order and enter. And on Thursday, we have a special show for you folks. There's no audio book of Waiting for the Punch, but we're going to take the entire first section of the book and turn it into a podcast

for you. So that will be a little unique peek at the book on Thursday. Dig that. Now I'm going to play some loud guitar. Got to put my earplugs in. Thank you. © transcript Emily Beynon Boomer lives. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com.