WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 869 - Greta Gerwig

Episode Date: December 3, 2017

Like the protagonist of her new film Lady Bird, Greta Gerwig grew up in Sacramento, spent the summer going to the state fair, had a complicated relationship with her mother, and escaped to institutes of higher learning in New York City. Marc and Greta talk about the desire to get out from under the weight of your home town, how that tension translated into her acting career, and where she was coming from when she wrote and directed Lady Bird. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air.

This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucknicks? What the fuckocrats?

What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. On the show today, I talked to the director, Greta Gerwig, the actor and director, Greta Gerwig, about her new film, Lady Bird. I'm happy that Greta's here today. I hope you feel all right. It has been a rollercoaster coaster continues to be a roller coaster culturally and politically and and i find it exhausting but i am trying to find some space where i can uh you know be okay with the life that i've worked for and and and uh settled into but man it's it's it's hard but i'll tell you you, everything that's going on, somehow or another, has made me appreciate life a bit more.

I always sort of took it for granted. You take life for granted. I'm living. And you sort of avoid your ultimate destiny any way that you can on a daily basis. But now I'm sort of like, it might happen. It's obviously going to happen, but it might happen. You know, I've talked about this before. I feel like I'm being morose.

I watched some comedy. I did some comedy. I'm trying to continue evolving my craft. I hope you all are as well. I hope you're trying to do the best you can do so you can at least feel good about that. I am in the garage. I am in between homes. I am spending equal time almost at both places in a way, doing the work here at the Cat Ranch and doing the work at the other place. I was outdoors in front of my new house. I met the woman who is the head of the neighborhood watch.

and she introduced herself and then pointed out the homes of uh who lived in where and where the other neighborhood watch people and who her co-watch person was caddy corner gave her my email so i will be getting the coyote updates the uh the uh suspicious drifter updates the uh the water breaking water main breaking updates the uh did anyone hear that updates i haven't been on a neighborhood watch in a while. I had one. I was on one up here, and it just got to be a bit much. It got to be a bit much. It just got to be.

I couldn't keep up, and I was constantly looking out my window because there's always one or two people on the neighborhood watch, which it seems to be their life. That is their life. And, you know, you got to pull out, man. I had to get out of that one. I had to get out of that loop. We'll see how the new loop goes.

Sarah the Painter's on one, and she gets updates about cats and coyotes and people breaking into cars. And it just, I got enough on my mind with the broad-based fear. I don't need to, you know, I need, there's the micro fears within, the macro fears from without. And then there's the, just around the block fears that I guess they're probably more important than the larger ones the umbrella fears that we all have because of what's happening in the world but uh i don't know trying to get past it man but i watched some comedy that was the point i'm trying to like do the the one thing that uh you know i've been doing all my life that is the craft that I have honed with the most diligence, and see what I can do.

See where I can take that. What do I got to do to challenge myself and make it exciting next? What do I got to do? So I watched, I do like watching comedy. I do find myself, when I go to the comedy store,

going in to see people, and I just want to get a nice laugh. I could use a nice laugh. know i and i i appreciate getting a nice laugh and not everybody can do it to me like last night like i got a couple uh couple of kyle dunnigan laughs he brought me up and he he made me laugh a couple times that was good i think he was really the only one i watched for very long but at home, I hooked up my television, and I guess every television comes with Netflix, and I watched some comedy.

I watched Brian Regan's new special. I always like watching Brian Regan. I'm always going to get at least a few deep, solid, kind of like can't stop it laughter. It was a good special. I enjoy watching Brian. And then I watched Jerry Seinfeld's special. And I have to be honest with you,

I don't think I've ever watched him do stand-up, really, in terms of paying attention. I decided that he really wasn't my thing a long time ago as a stand-up. I don't know. Well, I do know why. I absolutely do know why. Obviously, I'm not taking anything away I'm not gonna criticize Jerry Seinfeld he's he's done all right for himself as a stand-up it

was just never my bag I never felt any depth to it uh and and I I never felt that yeah I never felt connected to it because I didn't know that I couldn't tell whether he was really connected to it uh I thought it was you know structurally fine but i don't even think i paid that much attention until the other night when i watched his new special where he goes back to the comic strip and he talks a bit about his life and then i think he was doing you know classic bits that he did early on but i watched the whole thing because uh i i guess i'm in a space now where i can take it in and not be judgmental and just like, well, why don't you try to appreciate Jerry Seinfeld? I mean, it's never too late.

You know, people love this guy. Why don't you take it in? You know, I mean, there's plenty of people that are peers of his that you like. There's plenty of people that show up in that special who I used to enjoy watching. Mark Schiff, who has been on this show, was one of Jerry's early friends. I always got a kick out of Mark, but I watched Jerry and I saw what he does. I see what he does. I see the technique. I see the structure. I see the commitment to the script and to craft and to,

you know, what it is exactly that Jerry Seinfeld does, how he builds a bit, how he, you know, sort of peppers it all with punchlines and how he talks about things that you would never notice. And you're, you don't know whether you're happy that he noticed them or not, but now you, now you're going to notice them and maybe get a laugh in the future, I guess is the point. It's like, I would have never thought of that. Now I am thinking about it. And now next time I see that, uh, maybe I'll get a little chuckle. I'll get a little chuckle. And that's not nothing that, you know, helping people get through the day by, you know, laughing at mundane bullshit is, you know, certainly it's in the plus side. But he did say something very interesting that I found very revealing.

And I think the fundamental difference, you know, between whatever he does and whatever I do. Again, I'm not comparing myself to him.'s had a tremendous success as a stand-up but but i don't feel that him and i would get along and i don't feel that he has any that i'm on his radar but whatever the case he said something in this special he said i don't i'm paraphrasing he said i don't really care if people like me or not i'm not concerned whether or not people like me. I just want them to like the joke, which is interesting, isn't it? Like, I imagine that I want people to like me. Obviously, I do.

I don't think that's necessarily why I do stand up. I'm not one of those people that needs love up there. I need to feel like I'm alive and present and in the moment and connecting with the audience. But I don't know that I'm looking for love, but I am looking to be seen. And by being seen, I mean, I want them to see who I am. And it seems to me that is the fundamental difference.

Like if I do an observational bit, I'm going to put a little bit of me in there, whether it's my neurotic insanity or my paralyzing dread and fear or my own sort of darkness or my own sort of, you know, obsessive take on something. It is specifically mine. And that is, you know, a big take on something. It is specifically mine. And that is, you know, a big part of my standup. I think it's more important to me than the actual writing of the joke. So that is the fundamental difference. And that is what I always felt about him is that I just could not figure out who the hell he was.

And I'm not sure that was a good thing. It felt like, you know, what's that guy hiding? What is that guy hiding behind all this talk of nuance, compulsive, observational nuance? What's behind that? And I guess you see it a little bit, but to me, that moment where he said, I don't care if people like me,

which I will extend to, I don't care if they know me. Matter of fact, I'd rather they didn't. Just laugh at the joke, put it out there. It's like, that is the barrage that I put in front of me to protect myself from you.

Now, I've used comedy to disarm people. I've done it defensively. I've done it embracingly. I've done it a lot of different ways. But the point being, in thinking about how I want to do it in the future, I've been experimenting with persistence and creating a sort of nonstop giggling. I'm into creating

nonstop sort of like giggling in people. There are people that can do that. It's a very specific thing that comes from a persistence, usually through repetition, where you just sort of get a roll going and you just keep pushing it and pushing and pushing. And I know I can do it, but I don't do it consistently and I don't do it, you know, consistently. And I don't do it necessarily on purpose. So I'm going to try to do that on purpose. Obviously, I'm not doing it here. I'm not doing it right now.

I'm talking about doing it. Right? So I saw the disaster artist. But maybe I'll talk about that Thursday when my guest my guest James Franco joins us but today today on the show I talked to Greta Gerwig the director the director of Lady Bird I've seen her in the Noah Baumbach movies why did I say that like that I've seen her in uh the other movies she's been in I've seen her in movies but she directed this film ladybird with uh with uh sercia ronan is that her name come on yes sercia sercia ronan and i learned how to say

her name from watching her monologue on snl but the movie ladybird is a coming of age teen movie about a teenage girl. And, you know, God knows that that terrain has been explored and there are motifs and tropes in there. It's a genre in a way. I just want to drop some critical terms. But somehow or another, Greta really humanized and wrote a line with this film that was quite stunning and uh Tracy Letts is the father and uh Laurie Metcalf both of them you know Steppenwolf geniuses and and Tracy playing a he's actually the the the sort of uh slightly um the sort of slightly beaten down, benevolent force,

the sweet force in this movie, there's the father. But it takes place in Sacramento. I have some experience with Sacramento, having performed up there and having spent time in Sacramento. But ultimately, this movie is a beautiful movie. It's a beautiful little movie about a teenage girl and her parents in Sacramento growing up, about to finish high school. And there's something so natural about it

and something so stunning about the performances. And the direction was just right on the mark. It was really a great, great film. And direction was just right on the mark. It was really a great, great film. And I was excited to talk to her. I'm excited when I see a movie and it's great and I get to talk to the Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without

checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zentsurance. Mind your business. Per week. How long have you been out here? You came out yesterday? Yeah, I've been out here.

I was out here the week before. I'm kind of on a lot of planes right now. Yeah? How do you handle that? All right? Mostly all right. Do you freak out? I have minor freak outs. Oh, just on takeoff or landing?

Oh, no, no, no. I'm mostly, I'm okay on planes now. I mean, planes, it's sort of just like. You mean just in life? Yes, I thought we were just talking in general. General freak outs here and there? I've given over to planes. Yeah.

Oh, good for you. You've surrendered. Have you given over to planes? You sort of have to after a certain point unless you want to be exhausted every time you get someplace. I know. You really don't have control. No. You have to kind of accept it.

And I think I had a moment where I was like, you can keep being nervous every time this happens. Sure. Or you can just say, this is your life. Sure. If this is the way it ends, this is the way it ends. I'd rather not. Yeah. I'd rather not picture it.

Right. I tend to picture it. I picture it. Yeah. I picture it. Just the terror, strangers screaming. No, no. No.

Please don't remind me. No, I actually, I did. A friend of mine said something comforting to me, which doesn't sound comforting, but was comforting. My friend George said, yeah, but if you die in a plane crash, that would be awesome. Oh, really?

And I said, why? And he said, well, everyone would say, did you hear about Greta how'd she die and they'd say a plane crash she was on that plane she was on the plane

and I was like that sounds terrible but also I'm glad that my friend George thinks it sounds yeah that he found it

exciting comforting or he sort of thought it sounded I don't know the one thing a guy said to me once that I found helpful was he said, you know, they're built to fly.

Yes. That doesn't comfort me. No? No. They're not just sending it like, I hope this works. Planes want to fly. Yeah. Oh, you've heard that before.

I don't. For some reason, that doesn't. But when you fly a lot, eventually you'll have that horrendous, terrifying flight that you judge. That kind of breaks it open for you. You have a precedent. Oh, please. I don't want this.

No, it's not the conversation you want. I can't. I'm just so... I know it'll happen at some point. I mean, just that something will happen. I'll just get really scared. No, you'll be fine. Don't be...

I'm just talking about turbulence. I'm not talking about the worst of it. Yeah, exactly. So I saw the new movie. Oh, yes. I've seen you in other movies. Like, I'm familiar with you. You're familiar with me.

I don't know everything. I haven't seen everything. I'm so glad you haven't. But I've seen enough. Okay, good. And I worked with Joeanberg a couple times yes that's right yes well on his series easy right i've had joe in here i've had i don't know if he's still your boyfriend but i had noah in here yes we have common friends i think at least those two

guys i know i talked with noah this morning about this he said he really liked talking to you. He did? Yeah. Oh, good. That was a while back. Yeah. Yeah. He says he really, and he doesn't, he's not, he doesn't say that about everything. Yeah, I think we connected. I think I got through, you know, he's like a New York guy. Yes.

Yes. He's a New York guy. I just saw his New York movie. His new New York, the Meyerowitz story. It's great. It is good York guy. I just saw his New York movie. Meyerowitz. His new New York, the Meyerowitz story. It's great. It is good. Yeah. I liked it.

He got some pretty painfully kind of angry performances out of a couple of funny dudes. I know. I mean, all of the actors break my heart, but I don't know. There's this one line in it where Adam's saying, he says something like, we needed to believe he was a genius, otherwise he was just an asshole. Which I just, that's just the best line.

But isn't that true with all fathers? I mean, especially as a guy. Like, you know, at some point, you know, it all breaks down. But, you know, you sort of, for for a while believe that your dad's pretty great you know it's sort of in the it's in it's part of the rule book oh yeah you know i think i said not having not being a son to a father i don't i don't know that i totally ever quite understood that yeah intimately i understand it kind of intellectually well the breakdown of that is pretty awful you know as you grow older whenever it happens where you realize

this guy's kind of i know i know horrible it's all like mini death of a salesman happening every day every day at all times a mini death of a salesman happens every six seconds in America. Somebody's like, dad's a schmuck. My dad's an asshole. So, but you, but your movie seems very personal, this new movie. It is, yeah. And it seems like that dynamic between your mother, Laurie Metcalf, who's a genius. Yeah. And how do you pronounce the actress's name played, I assume you? Well, no, actually, know, it's so funny. The character she played, her name is Saoirse Ronan. Saoirse. But actually, the Irish way to pronounce it is Saoirse. Saoirse Ronan. And I heard her explain that to Charlie Rose the other day because we were on Charlie Rose. Yeah. And then the whole interview, then I also called her Saoirse. Saoirse. And then she said, why did you just change the way you say my name?

And I was like, well, I just felt like if Charlie was going to say it that way, I had to match it. Well, maybe she wasn't you, but I just, she did a very good job. No, no, no. She was, it was funny. We actually have talked a lot about this, obviously making the movie, but now also doing press. On the junket. It's, in a way,

it was sort of the opposite of me. Like I was not a, I mean, in the movie, for someone who doesn't know, she makes, everybody call her by the name Lady Bird and that's not her name.

I never made anyone do that. I never. But what about the dynamic between the mother and, because that was very specific. That's sort of where we were coming off the father-son thing. That, I mean, I definitely had a very complicated but very rich, loving relationship with my mom

that was just in teenage years we just fought. And the thing is I kind of remember the broad strokes of the fight, but I don't actually remember the details of a lot of the fights. I don't remember what exactly all the issues were, but I remember fighting. But it's a very painful relationship, that one in the movie, because it's persistent and it's repetitive emotional dismissal and and and belittling yeah uh and and manipulation and and and it's the challenge is to find that character to have empathy for that character right well but you do yeah yeah well i guess i've always sort of seen that the character of the mother and the way the relationship is playing out is like we're meeting them at this moment and it hasn't always been this way and that even though it's it's bad right now right it's not

forever still within that context yeah her mom's still always helping her out sure and making sure that everything is as good as it can be even while she's completely frustrated and not sure that everything is as good as it can be, even while she's completely frustrated and not sure that her daughter is ready for the world. And I think that that's the thing that makes it so understandable is that still doing anything for her. Right, but there's an emotional price to pay for a character like that, right? Yeah, yeah. for her. Right, but there's an emotional price to pay for a character like that, right? Yeah.

Yeah. In the sense, and the fact that Saoirse, that her awareness of it in the film, that she knew that her mom had this problem. She didn't know what exactly it was, but she knew that as herself became more defined, that she was up against

this. So it didn't feel all out, it didn't feel like emotional abuse for the whole right right right right because she was struggling with her mom's persistence of belittling her really right i think too it's like the thing or the way i think of it about it too is like the dynamic of um to me in some ways, the way I write is so, I allow myself to kind of do things unconsciously. And then I try to craft them after I've done it unconsciously. And the part that I.

What do you mean? You write, you stream of conscious or you just sort of like blow it out? You stream of conscious or you just sort of like blow it out? Not stream of consciousness, but I don't. I have a distinct experience of tapping into something where I can just write and write and write. And it doesn't feel like I am doing the choosing of the words, which I'm sure everyone who writes at some point feels like that. And then I come back to it later and it's almost a sense of, I don't know who wrote this. And now I have to make it into something

that has form. That's good that you can do that. It's good. It's good, but it's odd and it doesn't make you, there's an odd disconnect with it. Because in a way, it's like you've found something

that someone's left. Well, that's better than being sort of self way it's like you've found something that someone's left well that's better than being sort of self-conscious about something you've done like as it's happening it's nice that you can kind of blurt it out yes wherever it comes from and then work with it as opposed to sort of like like over every sentence like yeah yeah no i can't i i there are moments where i just once i start structuring those things and making them have more form, I have to then amount of uh mystery to what i'm i'm saying and how these characters function and right and and when i have great actors they give me more understanding of what it is i've i've written and then and that informs how I'm going to direct it. And there's a, just a scene where search is there. It's a bad moment.

And she's, um, she's trying to get her mom to talk to her and her mom won't talk to her. And then all of a sudden the character starts yelling at herself. She starts saying everything her mom has said, but her mom isn't saying that she's saying it. And I knew kind of that that's what i had written but the first time i saw laurie and sersha rehearse that scene i was like oh that's the thing is your parents don't even need to do it to you you will do it to yourself that's the worst the rest of your life right you will have those tapes playing forever and and and you and and even if left to your own devices,

if you want to create, just out of necessity, a parent in your mind that's different than the one you have, it's not going to give you a break either. No. You're doomed. It's true. But ultimately, I feel that why, Laurie,

and why this relationship is something that you sympathize with and understand, even though you're frustrated with it, is that I think I see Laurie as creating a character who, despite making mistakes and not doing everything perfectly, that she actually does give her enough good things, enough courage to go do what she needs to do. Right. So she didn't squash her.

Right. But there's also that weird, you know, the element, because it's really just a coming of age story, right? Is that what you would call the, it's about a teenager. Well, I've always sort of, the way I looked at it, or conceptually I looked at it, was like, I wanted it to be one person's coming of age is another person's letting go. And I wanted it to be with just as much attention on the letting go side of it as the coming of age side of it. Which often I think movies about teenagers, the adults are just sort of played as jokes. Right, right.

Just kind of like stereotypes. Yeah. And especially with like not just parents, but then also teachers or other figures in their life. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted every person to feel like they're in their own story. Yeah, I thought that was pretty amazing. Because I like seeing Tracy Letts do anything.

Me too. And Laurie Metcalf. So it was pretty dynamic for me. And I love the movie. And I don't love all movies. But I didn't know. A lot of times I talk to people whose movies I thought were okay. I try to find

something nice to say but like you know right when people start singing I start crying I don't know why it just happens

singing singing me too really that's why I love musicals I know I don't even know

what it is I don't see a lot of them but every time I watch even when the kids were just singing you know

when they were auditioning I'm like oh good I don't even know that's how I feel what do you think that is why because it's so vulnerable right it's so vulnerable it's so sincere And when they were auditioning, I'm like, oh, good. I don't even know. That's how I feel. What do you think that is?

Why? Because it's so vulnerable, right? It's so vulnerable. It's so sincere. There's something about singing, particularly people singing who are not great singers. The kids were great. You can't. I mean, there's nothing more just raw than that. And I still love going to see high school musicals when i'm um

home in sacramento i'll go see the local high schools put on musicals do you sing i i don't sing well but i do you let yourself yeah yeah i do i let myself sing that's right you sang in the in that in the you kind of were jumping around and rocking out in that movie with Annette Bening. Yeah, I did. But I really sang in Greenberg. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I saw that.

I sang a Judy Sill song in Greenberg. Okay. Was that at a party or something? Where did it happen? My character sort of wants to be a singer, and she invited Greenberg to go see her sing at the Silver Lake Lounge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she's- Now I'm remembering.

She sings that Judy Sills song. So you do sing? I do sing. I mean, I can carry a tune. I was in choir in high school. Okay. But I was always second soprano. So it's always,

that's like, you don't get the melody, you get the harmony. So you're kind of singing the other thing. And it's just kind of like you don't ever get to soar. Yeah, right. I was terrified of it. I like to sing, but I was terrified of it for so long.

Yeah. It is scary. I don't know why. It's just a matter of like you don't think you're going to do it well, but people, if you do it, you know, honestly, people will respond if you're not horrible. And then even then people are relatively sympathetic depending on the venue. And if you're not singing the national anthem. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I think it's very, it's very appealing. And I've also always liked, you know, my favorite musical theater singers have, in a way, peculiar voices. Like who? Well, like, you know, Elaine Stretch. Oh, yeah.

It's not a straight ahead, beautiful voice. Right, right. There's something else there. Even Bernadette Peters is. Well, those two, like, are on the kind of cabaret-ish. I don't know a lot about musicals, but there's a character to it. There's a character to it. Yeah.

I mean, Elaine will talk sing. Yeah, yeah. We actually, Saoirse and I talked about... When she sings Everybody Says Don't in the movie for her audition, there's an Elaine Stritch version of singing everybody says don't and she talks through the whole thing and she kind of runs everything together and search was sort of doing a version of that uh-huh yeah it was great because the funny thing about that audition and just in terms of who she is and what you're building that character into is that she

owned it so well you thought for sure she'd get, and she doesn't because the guy was like, all right. Yeah. You got a showboat here. She needs to be, you know, harnessed. Yeah. Humbled. She also is just, it's just too much. Everything's too much.

That character is kind of living on the edge of a cliff always. And that's what I love about her. But it's amazing to watch her fling herself at stuff and also you maintained a sort of innocence that you know you've we've grown to think is no longer there that you know the assumption is like you know these kids today they've got access to everything but this is 2002 right this is 2002 so it's a little different a little that's that's true i just realized that as i was saying it i mean i well i one thing that i did on set because and i took this from noah it's something he does and it's a great policy on set is no one had any cell phones um because i don't like cell phones on set because

if you need to make a phone call or text someone, you can leave set and go do it there. But there's nothing that bums you out more than looking over and seeing. Everybody. Everybody texting in between. And someone said to me, oh, good luck with that. With the younger kids in your cast, they're attached to their phones. And actually, I think for them, it was such a relief not to have to deal with their phones and that they loved it. They all left their phones in

their trailer and then they were totally present they had to they had to and but then they really enjoyed it and i sort of re i made them innocent again yeah that's great i i i think i mean i obviously there's like the internet giving you access to all kinds of things. But one thing is, yeah, everybody knows things all the time now. And I don't know. But there is a context to childhood that you can't, like you're not going to fill it up more than it can be filled up. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

Do you know what I mean? Like their range of interest and what they're going to take in and what they can take in is relative to the brain at that age, not to how much is out there. Yes, that's right. That's right. There's only just to how much is out there yes so that's right that's right there's only just a certain amount yes yeah that's right and so they never thought of it that way and so they maintain it you know naturally naturally because they're sort of like i don't know what that is i'm not yeah i'm not gonna deal with that i know although i mean i

even remember though like when i came to college i went to college in new york and i remember having this sense of like where did everybody hear about the cool cool stuff right like i don't know like i actually literally don't know where you would have heard of that yeah and like the guy the guys who somehow at 18 already knew all the cool well they were they were not in sacramento yeah right and maybe they had more of a i don't know how there was definitely an exposure issue yes there was an exposure issue which is less now because of the internet that's right yeah and that thing of like getting information through magazines is something i was i kept trying to explain to the cast of like all right there was a time yeah when you would have won that was where the cool stuff was you got it yeah every month in the magazine and they'd i i always

remember it i had 17 magazine yeah was i mean they would obviously the people who made 17 magazine were were people who lived in new york or la and stuff and they knew. But it was this disconnect between what clearly the editors knew about and then what we were hearing on the radio. Yeah. So there would be like this, you know, Bjork being really cool. Right. But we never heard Bjork on the radio. Yeah.

Where would you hear Bjork? That's right. It was this sort of strange. You'd have to go seek it out somewhere. But like I knew about Bjork from 17 would do a sidebar on her. Right. Like how do I get that? But like studying magazines.

I mean, but I like that idea of sort of like this moment where all of this stuff is rising, but it's not there yet. Yeah. I mean, it's actually like it's a little bit after when I was actually in in high school but it felt like a way to talk about now without actually having to shoot smartphones which i didn't want to shoot at all right and also right you had a flip phone or two in there i have like a couple kids had flip phones but and i just like that feeling of i don't know not knowing where someone is yeah i don't know how we did it. It's a very weird thing how quickly and how effectively these technological conveniences have consumed our extensions. There are extensions of ourselves. And that now the idea that you would come home at the end of the day and listen to your machine.

I know. What? Let me just check my messages. Let me check my messages. Remember when you could check it on your phone with the tone? Yes. It's sort of like, wow, this is the greatest. Yes.

I'm checking my messages on my phone from another phone. I know. And you could see if anyone had called. Yeah, yeah. It was great. Like, no, I mean, it was something that we talked about a lot, even in terms of, like, production design. something that we talked about a lot even in terms of like production design of like before everybody had a pinterest page and you know that there was you know you would have the furniture that would

be around you would be stuff that you would have gotten when you got married or from your grandmother and then you know you could like sears and pennies and maybe there's a Costco where you could buy a computer chair. But like the stuff that was around you, it was like pre-IKEA, pre-like kind of design in the way that we experience design now. Right. It's, design's very accessible and completely turned out now. It's like everywhere. Yes, everywhere. But even, you know like that everyone celebrating target but uh but yeah in sacramento also is this sort of this weird um kind of you know a middle america city

in california i've been there several times i i dated a woman briefly for a few years from sacramento did you ever do stand-up yeah sure? Yeah, sure. At the Punchline. At the Punchline. At the Arden Mall. Yeah. Across from the Arden, what is it? Yeah, Arden Fair Mall. Is it Arden Fair? Arden Fair. Sure.

And I stayed at the horrible condos across from the Arden Fair Mall. Yes. Sure. And I wandered around that mall. I used to go up there fairly frequently to the Punchline. It's right next to the mattress store on the second floor of that strip mall there. There's a number of comedians who come through Sacramento. I remember my dad was always interested in comedy.

He always had comedy albums and stuff. And he'd go see people who came through. That was a good club. And there was a very healthy comedy scene out of San Francisco that ran a lot of people through there. And all the major headliners would play Punchline Sacramento. It's a big room. You can make some money. Yeah.

If you could sell some tickets. Mm-hmm. There used to be that 50s diner. Yes. Like right. Yes. Right there in that strip mall. Yeah.

And then it went away and I was sort of upset because it was open late. This is all. And it's all right by the fairgrounds. Yeah. The fairgrounds. The state fairgrounds. Yeah. There's something about growing up in a place where like the state fair is like a really big deal sure that it it it's even though

sacramento is the capital and it's a it's a city but it does have sort of a small town feeling and that definitely connected to the agricultural roots of california and it's in the central valley of the agricultural valley and just I remember so much of my childhood was like being excited for state fair and then just loving state fair and then being bummed when it was done. But there's like, you know. Because they had the midway and they had-

Serious livestock competitions. Kids would come in and they were like, I've raised this pig. I love my pig. And it was always exciting. And then there was also this thing of like, if an animal was about to give birth, like a cow or a pig,

it would be, they'd put them in this area where you could just keep watch on them. And then one, you'd wait for hours and hours and they're like, it's coming. Really?

Gather round. You'd watch a cow give birth. And then this little cow would come out and just be so gooey, but so cute. And instantly start walking. And it was amazing. It'd be like a 14-year-old with a cowboy hat on. Yes. And his boots with his dad.

Yes. Dealing with shit. Yeah. And there was also this thing, this amazing thing. They had the county exhibits. It was like a big, in one of those big expo rooms. And every county would make their own like life-size diorama, which was always just, I just loved it. And it was kind of, it was kind of, I don't know who judged the county exhibits.

But I always, like I always felt like L.A. did not put as much effort into it as they could have, given it was like... That was supposed to be the creator. Yeah, yeah. But they sort of just had a California raisin and were like, we're done. Sure. And every other county was like, we're going to beat L.A. Yeah. And it was like Yolo County.

It was incredible. And like Mendocino County. What were they, exhibits? Yeah. Representing the county? Yeah, yeah. What the county they, exhibits? Yeah. Representing the county? Yeah, yeah. What the county represents? Like what is it about the county?

Like trout or, I don't know, that's all I can think of is trout. Or, you know, the redwoods or, you know, whatever the county in California was. And, you know, California is such a big state. Huge. I grew up in Albuquerque and they had the New Mexico State Fair. And it was kind of a big deal. Yeah. There was a bit of the rodeo business.

But not a lot of agriculture. But there was also like indigenous people. Like you'd go and there was that whole area where you'd go get Indian fried bread. Yes. And they had Indian jewelry. Yes, yes. And then there was the Midway. And they had like the Babies in a Jar and the Freak Show and a couple of rides. And then there was the Midway, and they had the Babies in a Jar, and the Freak Show, and a couple of rides.

And then there was the Horses, and the Exhibition Halls, and then rodeos and concerts with Roy Clark, and Buck Owens, and Willie Nelson, and George Jones. I didn't do all that. You didn't do all of that. But we'd go to the fair. You'd go to the fair. Get the Indian fry bread. We'd get the two-week pass, so you could go to the fair every day really yeah they have like this area called the farm or there'd be agricultural like there's always like a thing

in sacramento particularly in davis like trying to get trying to create an avocado tree that will stay alive during the winter yeah because california northern california the avocado trees will grow but they will not produce avocado fruit because the winters it drops down to be too cold. So there's always like big avocado. Problem. Shortage. Exhibits about trying to keep them warm and avocado trees wrapped in blankets.

Isn't it weird what makes an impression on you that you remembered that? That there's an avocado problem, but the way it was illustrated is something you've held on to your entire life yeah because there was something about the device of warming the avocados that was ingenious to you oh no i mean the whole thing but it's so funny because it's just like that where the comedy club was where arden fair is where the fairgrounds are all all of that. I mean, the fair, it's just one of those things in my life where the state fair was such a magical kingdom to me when I was growing up. And then as an adult, and definitely when the state fair is not going on, fairgrounds don't look like anything. No, they're nothing. It's impossible to explain why this was so meaningful.

No, they're like dormant and they're waiting. They're waiting. They're just sort of like, look, it's all going to be happening in a year. I know. But now nothing's going on there. I know. And there's always like one or two cars and you're like, what are those people doing there? I know. I had

wanted to, I mean, maybe I'll make a movie that has the state fair in it because I had wanted to put a state fair in the movie, but it just didn't make it in. It had no place. It would just be completely unnecessary. But you did, it was sort of a bit of a weird love letter

to Sacramento. Yes, definitely. I mean, it is, it's a love letter through the eyes of somebody who thinks she wants to get out, but then looking back, it's like oh no that yeah that's i get a little choked up just thinking about that that you know her what she said to her mother the driving the driving i know it's it's a it's a killer yeah it's a killer i think that's you know one of the i think that one of the things about particularly being a teenager is you just have this certainty that life is going on somewhere else and you're just positive about it.

And then you get to the place that for whatever reason you think life is and then you think, oh, no, this is not it. Right. It's not. Wait, maybe it never happens. Right, right. Or maybe it's. Did you feel that yeah yeah i don't know like i feel like um like i'm trying to think so so you did you have siblings yeah i have an

older brother older sister oh really yeah and you you grew up in sacramento your whole life whole life yeah my parents still live there my brother lives there with his family my sister lives in berkeley with her family and what did what do they do uh my mother's retired um she was a nurse she was a nurse she was actually an ob-gyn nurse and um my dad works for a credit union uh he does small i i was i don't know how to explain his position he does small business loans like he sort of vets them and so you kind of base these characters in the movie pretty close. Pretty close, yeah. And what do your brothers do, your siblings?

Well, my sister works for the EEOC of California, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. And my brother is a landscape architect, but he does sort of kind of like more large-scale things. Like if you're going to build a freeway, how do you preserve the plant life? That kind of thing more large scale things. Like if you're going to build a freeway, how do you preserve the plant life? Right. That kind of thing. Problem solving.

Not quite personal, not personal landscape architecture. Not like, I really want a pond. No, no. I mean, I think he can do that,

but I think maybe he moved away from it. Yeah. Why wouldn't you? He drives a truck. Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah.

Trucks are good. Trucks are, yeah, Sacramento. Yeah. You get the truck. You gotta have a truck if you're drives a truck. Yeah. Oh, good. Trucks are good. Trucks are Sacramento. Yeah. You get the truck. You got to have a truck if you're a landscape designer. Yeah. Go landscape architect. He's driving out to sites.

So that's sort of a creative thing. But you went full on like, I got to get out of here. I'm going to be an actress. What? Well, yeah. Well, they all were creative. My sister, she was a really gifted artist and also a gifted writer she still writes yeah but it none of the i i decided to do it for my job which i think was

scary for everybody involved everybody involved yeah they're just yeah they're concerned like it's weird to it's hard to uh be a parent i think, and not worry about somebody who wants to pursue the arts. It feels like you're just letting your kids sign up for disappointment forever. And that could be the way it goes. Yeah, it's true. I'm qualified to do some things because my mom was worried that I would not have a... But when I was a teenager, I became a certified step aerobics instructor and also a certified paralegal.

You did? Yeah, so that I could have... Because your mom was like, you've got to have something to fall back on. You've got to have a trade. Step aerobics was kind of a big deal at that moment. So I'm one of the, I think, youngest step aerobics instructors. Really? Did you get a plaque?

Do you have a plaque? I got a certificate, you know. How old were you? 16. So you're 16 and you're just sort of standing in front of a room full of, I imagine, women. Yeah. Doing the step aerobics. Doing some step aerobics.

Being chipper. It's just a lot of choreography. Sure. It's a performance. Yeah, definitely. And what does a paralegal do exactly? Well, I never actually did it, but I took the class at Sacramento City College to get certified.

But I never was hired as a paralegal. But I think it's a lot of stuff where you sort of have to know you are not authorized to make contracts, but you know about the law enough that you can look for cases to support things. I'm making this up at this point. They know a lot about the law, and they can organize things for the lawyers. That's right. That's right. I remember someone telling her that I didn't technically need a certificate, but I had a certificate.

Well, good. And you still have that. I don't know. Do you refresh it every year just in case? No, no. Just in case this all doesn't work out. But yeah, I mean, your family must have also been like a little. I guess, you know, I don't know.

I think they were all pretty self-involved. There wasn't a lot of, you know, they're just sort of like, he seems like he's doing all right. He seems okay. He seems to be confident. Let him go ahead and do this. Yes. Whatever the hell he's doing. But yeah, it took a long time for it to work out.

I think they were worried. But what good is that going to do anybody they can't forbid you they can at were they going to forbid you out of their own fear you know right which i think the mother character does a bit of in a way yes yeah yeah that's true i mean i think i guess you could forbid you could sort of say i'm not if you're gonna like like, now we won't, you know, support you. Support you.

Like, you know, you're on your own. You're on your own. Thank God you have your paralegal license and you can be a step instructor. That's right.

And when you go to New York. Yeah, when you go to New York. Yeah, yeah. And all that talk of UC Davis, like, I've performed

at UC Davis, too. UC Davis, I mean, my brother went there. It's a good school, I think, as far as the state schools go. It's a at UC Davis, too. UC Davis, I mean, my brother went there. It's a good school, I think, as far as the state schools go. It's a very good school. It's just that it was close. Right.

That was the essence of her complaint is that it's close. You're not far away. It's too close. Someone could drop in on you. It's so funny that you handled, like, you know, there were those tropes of these kind of movies. Yeah. But you did them, like you said, you went a little more in depth. Because I do think that they're real events in teenage life.

They are. And it's easy to sort of make them hacky. Sure. And you did not do that. I tried not to. No, it was great. It was very touching. The old best friend, the real best friend, and the shitty new best friend.

And the lying, the shame of this girl and her mother. And it was all class shame. Yeah, there's a lot of class shame. Yeah, and so you leave Sacramento after doing your paralegal classes and you got into Columbia? Yeah, Barnard College. You got into Barnard? And I was at Barnard. Did it work the way it did in the movie where you got some loan or scholarship or how'd it go? Yeah, there was like a combination of things that enabled me to go to Barnard, which I eventually, I remember there was a moment in my mid-20s when I was able to pay

off a lot of it all at once and it felt amazing did you get it all paid off now it's all paid off and it was the best feeling of my my life it was yeah i i really i i i i'm so grateful that um certain breaks happened for me and that i was able to do that because it really is a crushing feeling hangs over hangs over you. It does. Did you have that experience? No, I did not. My parents had a little bread. Yeah.

But the house, this was my first house. And when I got it, there was no way I was going to pay it off. Yeah, I know. And then at some point, I'm like, I'm going to pay it off. I know. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah. Somebody, a friend of mine just bought an apartment and said, oh, I've

just bought a lot of debt. And I thought, oh, that's true. It is that. Yeah. You don't feel like you really own it. And then when you really do own it, you're like, all right, so it's mine. Now what? Now what?

Yeah. I know. But, but so what do you study at Barnard? I did. I eventually majored. I majored in English literature and philosophy. What was the focus in English? Did they make you focus on a period?

Yeah. I was really into sort of Renaissance and medieval studies stuff. I really liked. Oh, yeah? Like the Canterbury Tales? Yeah. But I was really into my one reference beer oh yeah and Milton and Milton's good Renaissance dramatists um and then I had a great I just had I had a lot of great professors um who kind of blew my mind that's what they're

supposed to do and I didn't I didn't have a chip on my, I think sometimes some of the people I knew who came to college had gone to the sort of high school that gave them what college gave me. Yeah. And so they were bored by college, but I had not heard of any of this and I was thrilled. Right, like, where am I?

I was like, Nietzsche, shut up. This is crazy. I was reading it for the first time. Yeah. And I was like, this is great. Yeah. Or, you know, Foucault. Yeah, who was this guy?

Right. Like any of those guys who just sort of like burst the world open. Could you wrap your brain around it? Yes. burst the world open i kind of could you wrap your brain around it yes i actually i i have i still remember having a very that feeling of satisfaction when something that felt impenetrable clicks into place and i also i don't remember i remember struggling with texts and then going into class and and feeling like i had had a hunch of what it was about and then it was confirmed for me. But that, it's a very,

I think if you've ever had that satisfaction of struggling with something and then having it suddenly make sense to you. Just open up. It's a thing you look for continually in your life. Yeah, I've had it with poetry. I've had it with some things. I don't know if I've had it a lot,

but it sounds similar to your writing process. It is. That's true. And I think it also, I remember talking to a professor who was very wonderful, who taught Lacan, a philosopher.

Yeah. And I remember going to her office hours once and I was just struck, he has all these sort of equations, which I didn't totally understand. And I remember going to her office hours once, and I was just struck. He has all these sort of equations, which I didn't totally understand. And I remember asking her, she was French. I said, why Lacan? Why is Lacan your person?

And she said, because it is difficult. And I thought, that's a really good answer. Because if you're going to spend all your life working on something, it's nice that it be difficult right and it keep revealing itself yeah you never quite get to the bottom of it and that's how i feel i mean filmmaking feels that way i think that's right difficult yeah i like this you never you you won't run out of ways to improve and and and you will never get on top of it. Right.

But also, you know, it's still your form of expression. So like instead of thinking about improving or getting on top of like you can like surprise yourself with the writing. And you're like, oh, my God. Like, I guess that's why I do comedy. It's a little more immediate. But certainly there's discovery, constant discovery. Yeah. You know, that happens on stage in the moment in conversation where it's sort of like,

I wonder if I can get that to work again. That's right. That's right. And I think too, I think, or I mean, I've, I've never done comedy like the way you do like standup or anything like

that, but I've always really loved listening to comedians talk. And I, and I like comedians a lot because it's that high altitude learning yeah you never learn anything faster in your life because it's you're you're uh the stakes are so high and i feel like there's something about that that i the stakes are high high-ish yeah but they're high because it's your it's Sure, right, right. It's not like if we don't pull this off, a lot of people are going to die.

No, no, no. It's high altitude inside yourself. Oh, no, absolutely. Because failure is imminent. Yeah. It's right there. And then it's like yourself can crumble in front of you, but also publicly.

Sure, right away. Like right away. Instantly. But part of the job is getting numb to that. Yes, that's right. And moving through that and just taking the hit. I thought about that even last night. I did a set at the comedy store.

And the audience was demanding. And they meant business. And sometimes on a Wednesday night, I don't necessarily mean business for 15 minutes. I kind of want to fucking just be the loose. Right, right. But there was a moment there where there were these loud, drunk people talking right there. And I'm like, you know, I knew this was good. I said to them, I knew you're going to be a problem.

I had an instinct about it because I've been doing this a long time. And they gave me stink eye. And I felt it there. And I just focused in on an audience that was sort of like, all right, so you shut them up. Now what? And you just, I felt that menace. And then I realized, like, I'm a professional. And if they don't fucking laugh, I don't really.

Whatever. No, it'll come around. Yeah. I know this shit's funny. So if I'm going to take a hit for schooling those drunks. Right. Fine. Right.

That's yeah. That's amazing. Professional. It's a professionalism that, you know, you have it, too, and what you do. Well, that's I remember reading. I mean, that that that thatne standing up when he talks about kind of failing and failing. Was that Steve Martin?

Yeah. I didn't read it, yeah. Oh, well, he sort of has a thing about talking about how you sort of get this armor and they know they can't touch you anymore because you have seen the worst. That's a great feeling. I mean, I think in a way, actually, for me, it's not that, you have seen the worst that's a great feeling i mean

i i think in a way actually for me it's it's not that i mean i i still have the ability to you know i'm still can be set you know sensitive about stuff i've made but i i think because i've i've acted and written and made stuff for a long time i've i've learned to not be quite so invested in the moment of whatever is going on yeah because if because either way they'll go away yeah but i mean film stays film the film will stay around but the feeling of like i have gotten bad reviews like you get used to it yeah i mean fuck it man you know you know what i mean it's sort of like and then you just sort of learn from it and you move on and a lot of times in what you do if you're not at the helm you know this is not on you necessarily but this one is no this one is right sure but you know what i mean yes yes like you

know like there are projects i would imagine as an actor where you're like, yeah, the movie is okay, but I think I did pretty good, you know. Right, right. But you, like, you sort of came up through this, you know, world of, you know, I mean, Swanberg's world, Duplass's world, you know, I don't know, like, it seemed like there was a great deal of effort put on certain outlets to make it a separate world of film. But it is just a variety of independent film. Right.

Right. It's stylized and improvised, a lot of it. But it is still. Yeah. It is like, I don't know who the mumblecore people are, what that means, really. Neither do I. But, you know, there are certain people that are like, Swanberg's great at it. He has a way of doing it. it's pretty it's pretty wild yeah to to the way that he directs you know in the

moment to you know because you know you're given because i've done two episodes of easy so i you know i've you know you're literally writing with him yes that's that's right. That's right. But the way he has to conceive of how these shots fit together in his head to make the thing function, you know, continuity-wise, is sort of fascinating. Yeah, well, I mean... How many movies did you do with him?

We did two movies together. We did Hannah Takes the Stairs and Nights and Weekends. Right. And that very kind of real commitment to improvisation as the organizing principle of it, he was the most extreme version of that. Like the Duplass brothers, they did a lot of improvisation,

but it was still more structured than what Swanberg was doing. Well, the thing about Swanberg is sort of like, you know, you know, he's discovering the fucking story. Yes. As it's happening. Yeah. Yeah. As it's happening. And that's ballsy.

Yes. You know, and it's, and then you realize like, well, a lot of this is on me. Yeah. It's on you. In a way, I always said it was a way I could write while I was acting. Yeah. And that was part of the task. Did you do any training in acting after your philosophy in English?

Oh, well, I mean, this is, so the full story is, it's really hard. I've done a lot of different things. So I didn't major in theater, but I did a lot of acting. Sure. And I did a lot of playwriting, particularly playwriting in college. But we were very lucky at Barnard and Columbia, both of us together, that we had a lot of Juilliard professors who were teaching in our drama department. So all of the main acting instructors from Juilliard were also teaching classes to us. from Juilliard were also teaching classes to us.

So I had the benefit of these really great acting teachers. And they were the first ones who said to me, you should take a playwriting class. You seem to be really interested in writing because I was sort of writing my own monologues and stuff. And then so I started taking writing classes from these Juilliard writing teachers. And so I was doing like, you know, whatever, an entire semester on Chekhov

for an entire semester on Shakespeare with acting. And then I was also taking playwriting classes. And then I was also doing a lot of, there's a show at Columbia called the Varsity Show, which is the show to be part of. It's all the cool comedy kids do it. And it's an original musical written and performed every year. I remember I showed it to a boyfriend who had not been at school with me after.

And he said, well, you guys put a lot of effort into this. And I said, we certainly did. of effort into this and i said we certainly did um but it was that was you know a big part of my experience too but i so i had i was i wanted to be a playwright and then i i got rejected from um yale yale nyu and and julia playwriting For graduate? For graduate school. And then I, and then, but I had already sort of started working on these movies. And I had also, as a sidebar, fallen in love with cinema, which I hadn't really been exposed to as an art form until I was in college.

So I was, I, we weren't, I wasn't making a living making those movies with Joe or, or the Duplass brothers. And I had no idea how this was all going to like really shake out over time, but it became almost like a film school for me. And, and in a way I found.

On all levels, as an actor, as a writer, and as a director. And also just as, as a, as a, how, like what you were saying before, like how are they constructed? Do you need an extra shot between this and this?

Because it was also, everyone was editing at night. So Joe would edit at night, but also when I shot with the Duplass Brothers, their editor, Jay Doobie, would work at night. And then we would come back the next day and realize we needed some connective tissue between this thing or that thing and it was a very it so that was a big part of learning how stuff was put together and then but i had never really lost my taste for something that was quite written and something that felt like a piece of writing that existed that you were trying to work on that was outside of improvisation.

And then when I read, I was writing already, but then I remember when I read the script for Greenberg, which I auditioned for, I thought, that's it. That's what I, this is the kind of- Right, you can't write this thing that these guys are kind of noodling with. I wanted to do that. And I knew I loved Noah's other films.

But then when I read that, it was a feeling that I got a couple of times with different writers where I thought, I didn't write that, but boy, do I wish I had. I felt that way when I read Kenneth Lonergan's plays for the first time. Well, you know, when I read his plays, I had that very strongly. There are people whose genius eludes me until I see it on stage. Like I felt that way about this playwright,

Carol Churchill. I didn't understand until I saw it. And then I was like, oh. I have a hard time with scripts in general. Like really picturing them properly. It can be hard. Yeah, like some people can just do it. Like for me,

I don't, it's like, I just, I end up not paying attention to direction. Right. So I just go voice to voice and then I start to,

like I can't, it's hard for me to conceive of what's happening. I think when I read Greenberg, when I read Greenberg, it was the first time I had read a film script that felt like a piece of writing that I could understand just fully as a piece of writing.

And also because it's like generationally, it's not far away from you. It's not far away from me. And it's also, he takes time with the stage directions. Oh, he does. Okay. Yeah, like everything's beautiful. It reads like a very long poem. So that was a mind blower.

Right. I mean, and then obviously we ultimately ended up writing together and that was such a fun experience. With what? Frances Ha? That was the first one we wrote together. And then we wrote Mistress America together. Yeah, I saw Francis Ha, the black and white one.

That's right. Yeah, I like that. You were good in that. I think I like that movie. And I like Greenberg a lot because I knew the guy. And it was familiar to me. You know, like it seems like Noah is, you know, he comes from a sophisticated background.

And, you know, the way he creates characters is from a very intellectually informed place. Yes. But he's very sensitive to emotions and to broken Jews, I think. I mean, he pays attention, and he's very yeah he's also just a beautiful again he's just a beautiful writer in a way he could have been a novelist yeah i could see him being a novelist as well even though he's i mean he's a great filmmaker so but but i think what's interesting too is like i mean obviously they're not talking about you directing yet but the fact that you've become a better actress i think definitely over the arc of things because even in jackie i mean that was a very controlled role right it was very controlled i

mean part of it is what are you being asked to do and sometimes you're not asked to do something that's terribly different from what you've done right um but i have definitely become a better actress yeah but i i've always felt for me everything's gone together like i started you weren't bad but you were like the varieties of yourself were apparent whereas like with jackie and with i think with 20th century woman yeah that there there was a a kind of control i definitely and also i think i mean that's always how for me i felt like i i i became a a writer because i was acting great writing yeah and and that made and then the acting made me a better writer and then that all made me kind of have a different eye on directing and i feel like i've never been a person who just exists in uh one lane and they all support each other sure

they don't they don't operate independently i remember listening to um i felt a lot of kinship with um mike nichols because he had been a performer and then a director. You know, he has this sort of trajectory and the way he talked about coming at directing and then sort of using his background as a performer, as a comedy writer and then other performing. Like, I felt I just felt like I understood that. Sure. Sure. Yeah, no, I mean, like, the way you put together the sort of, the learning process of working with Swanberg, working with the Duplasses, doing parts in those movies where,

you know, everybody, you know, is sort of equal pay, equal work, you know what I mean? Like, there's an ensemble of kind of, like, low-budgetness and kindred spirits in terms of, you know, wanting to do something new generationally, but then kind of like moving into the bigger time and taking, you know, that, but what I'm saying is I could see how it all built your brain

going back to keeping the avocados warm, that you're, you know, an integrator of information. I'm an integrator. I remember taking a personality test once uh it's what it's based on this union typology like the the the that you have a i'm an en i'm an enfp um that makes me sound it's not you're not an eneagram no no it's it's like there's 16 different types because it for every category you can be an e an i or an e which is an introvert or an extrovert and anyway under my thing i remember it saying like they often see everything as part of

a cosmic hole which is i i do i feel i almost feel like that's my brain needs to do that well that's good I mean you know that I mean the fact that you don't choose to well I don't know if that's true though but I mean like that would be the same kind of brain that would believe in God that is the exact brain that would believe in God. And well, how do you feel about that? I'm a theist. Yeah. I don't know. You're okay with it? I don't have, I don't know.

I don't subscribe to, I'm very interested in religion and i'm interested in all different kinds of religion but i don't subscribe to one but i have i have some belief faith i have some faith but actually i was listening to something the other day that was that said it was it was they were sort of saying like oh it was on this american life it was like all these things we don't know and they said oh you know how many people believe the the the the earth orbits the sun and everybody raises their hand and then they said and what is your evidence for that nobody has i, can you tell me the evidence right now? We don't.

Some people told me at some point in time that scientists kind of got some closure on that. There is evidence. We believe there's evidence. We don't know what the evidence is.

Well, I mean, it's there. You can. Right. It's there, but I bet it's harder to understand than you think. Yeah, but I mean,

that's not my job. No, but meaning that's, but with, you you know there's a lot of things we just sort of sure i i know like we take there is sort of a a an amazing uh uh the the the amazingness of of how it all holds together why how it is you know why is it okay you know and certainly you know given the administration we're within now. Yes.

That you start to feel existentially threatened of these things that we've grown to rely upon. Yes. Then you start to really kind of go like, you know, is this like, is the order going to be? Are we going to live through it? I don't know. Are we going to see the end thing? But I didn't want to be is it do are we going to live through it are we going to see the end thing but um but i didn't want to be negative but it is interesting that you take for granted a lot of things that i

think is what you do you do i mean i i don't know i don't have any i i have absolutely no um um answers i don't even really have convictions i just kind of have a uh you just see yeah you just feel that you know it's eventually kind of connected. Well, there's this, in Being and Nothingness, it starts with a question why is there something rather than nothing? Don't tell me you got through that book. No, of course not, but I definitely read the first sentence. Yeah.

Which is supposed to put us in the frame of mind of why is there something rather than nothing, which is a really good question. I have that book up there still i think there's a great book called um reality is not what it seems by this physicist um carlo rovielli yeah and um i think i have it in my backpack it's so good that you do like i you know this like i i like what you said about go ahead well i was just gonna say that he's just explained he sort of um he chronologically

takes you through uh what what we know what what physicists know about um the origin of what's all this stuff what's going on right with time and and he takes us through like figuring out different things and figuring out uh what is the universe constructed of and how does it fit together and it's sort of through the present moment yeah and it gets crazier and crazier and sort of like einstein's three sphere which just you can't even if you if you try to think of what that is your brain will stop functioning but um there's something about it that instead of making me feel like, oh, and we figured it out, it makes me feel very in awe of everything.

And I think that's sort of that awe feeling is, I don't know, it's almost like it's increased the more that I'm confronted with fact, that it's not diminished. Oh, that's good. You don't get the sense sort of like, glad that's figured out, now I can eat. No, there's something that's,

I remember, I forget what it was. I think it was when I was taking enlightenment literature, but it was like, there's some amazing letter by the British Philosophical Society, or maybe Scientific. But there was some letter where they said publicly,

I think we've almost figured it all out. Which is just my favorite thing. Yeah, finally. Yeah. And they're like, I think we're just maybe two weeks away. When was that written? It was like 1887. Oh, they were on it.

You know? Yeah, yeah. And they were like, I think it's almost over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing to worry about anymore. But I'm very compelled by that confidence and there's something so sweet about it

that I just think. Maybe that's your next movie on those guys. Yeah. How lovely we are. We thought, I think it's about done. Yeah,'s your next movie on those guys. Yeah. How lovely we are. We thought, I think it's about done. Yeah, yeah. It's in the bag. We got it.

Well, like I did have this weird question. Yeah. A meeting in Noah's Meyerowitz stories. Yeah. The one thing that stood out to me was that, you know, how he left scenes. Like, and then I'm just comparing the conversation that the way you ended um lady bird

was was similar and it has something to do with that there there is no closure and there's something about that you're not saying that this story has a uh well i was gonna say i mean i mean to speak i like movies where um i was very careful about the very end of it. It cuts off on an inhale. Yeah. Because to me, and I look through this footage a lot, the minute she exhales, there's something on her face that she's in a new story. And we're not telling that story.

That is the end of that story. And I've always liked the end of movies where you feel retrospectively, oh, my God, that was the end of that story. And it's and I like it when it cuts off just as it ends and it lets you remember that that was the end. You know, in a way, I feel like so much of filmmaking, you know, if you've written it and you've directed it, it has to make sense to you because there's no other reason to make it. I mean, it has to fit your weird need in some way. And because that's the hunch that everybody else is going off of. That's the thing that everyone else is bringing their talents to and collaborating with. And even the structure of the movie and certain things that if people said,

oh, does it need to be this way? One of the good reasons about putting together a movie is it forces you to consider everything because it all takes time and money and do you really need it? And you get very real with yourself very fast about what you need. Sure, you got, yeah. For about what you need sure you got yeah for budgetary reasons you gotta get lean yeah and then but then what's great about it is you realize that there are the things that that that matter that you that you need that you absolutely need you'll probably develop more intellectualized reasons for later.

But in the moment, you just know you need them and you don't question it. Right. Because if you start questioning it, then it all goes out the window. Because I'm not making movies about, you know, it's not a, I'm not making a crime caper. It's not like I need to know this information to know how they broke into the safe. It's more subtle than that but if i lose track of it then we're all lost because there's no reason to make anything yeah then just darkness and hopelessness yeah thank god why is there something rather than

nothing you don't want to live there no i think maybe i'm getting like this because this um this marble i'm looking into has a very cosmic the giant marble the giant cosmic marble cosmic marble and i think maybe that's putting me into a particular headspace all right well we can stop it was great talking to you go see lady bird it's open uh across the country it's a beautiful movie uh elevating the human spirit that's that's the best we can do right now uh in our individual ways elevate the human spirit make it important make it vital make it worth it. Yeah, okay? All right, I'm going to play some dark, elevating guitar, slightly psychedelic, but with the three-chord progression that is hypnotizing and relieving to me and, at this point, tedious. But in a good way. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 Thank you. Boomer lives!

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem

solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com.