Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Cal Fussman: The Power of Questions, Transform Your Life and Business with Authentic Connections | E302

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

“Are you happy to be the president?” asked 7-year-old Cal Fussman in a letter to President Lyndon B. Johnson after JFK’s assassination. Six months later, his mother ran into their apartment, waving a letter from the White House. This profound moment revealed the power of a question, setting Cal on a lifelong journey of asking questions and telling stories. In this episode, Cal discusses the power of authentic storytelling and offers entrepreneurs actionable advice on how to ask the right questions. Cal Fussman is a New York Times bestselling author, keynote speaker, and master storyteller known for his captivating interviews. He also hosts the Big Questions podcast and his work has appeared in Esquire, GQ, Sports Illustrated, and ESPN.  In this episode, Hala and Cal will discuss: - The presidential letter that changed Cal's life - How he traveled the world for free  - Techniques for making people open up - How to turn brief meetings into deep connections - The winning formula for telling captivating stories - Tips for becoming a better listener - How curiosity can lead to success in life and business - Cal’s unique style of interviewing famous people - Building genuine relationships through conversation - Tips for entrepreneurs on asking the right questions - And other topics…   Cal Fussman is a New York Times bestselling author and master storyteller known for his captivating interviews. He is the host of the Big Questions podcast and a celebrated keynote speaker. Cal has spent decades connecting with some of the world's most influential figures, from Muhammad Ali to Jeff Bezos. His unique ability to make people feel comfortable and his relentless curiosity have made him a beloved figure in journalism. His work has appeared in Esquire, GQ, Sports Illustrated, and ESPN.  Connect with Cal:  Cal’s Website: https://www.calfussman.com/   Cal’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/calfussman/  Cal’s Twitter: https://x.com/calfussman   Cal’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/calfussman  Cal’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/calfussman/  Resources Mentioned: Cal’s Podcast, Big Questions: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/big-questions-with-cal-fussman/id1315791659?mt=2    LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass, Have Job Security For Life: Use code ‘podcast’ for 30% off at yapmedia.io/course.   Sponsored By: Shopify - Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at youngandprofiting.co/shopify  Indeed - Get a $75 job credit at indeed.com/profiting    More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review - ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting   Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala   Learn more about YAP Media's Services - yapmedia.io/

Today's episode is sponsored in part by Indeed and Shopify. Attract, interview, and hire all in one place with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash profiting. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you grow your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash profiting. As always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes. November, 1963.

Three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade in downtown Dallas. The vice president has taken the oath of office. So I pick up a pencil and piece of paper and I just start writing, Dear President Johnson, are you happy to be the president? Are you sad? Are you scared? About six months later, my mom comes running with an envelope addressed to me.

We open it up, it's from the president, and in that moment, my life changed because I knew the power of a question. It could get you to the most powerful person on earth. Connection is collaboration, and we have to think about how our connections help us collaborate better, especially if you're an entrepreneur. It comes down to asking the right question, listening, connecting the dots,

telling the story, and then the little nudge. Welcome back to the show, young and profitors. We live in a highly connected world, but it feels like we are less connected than ever. And AI is only going to make this worse. It's not going to get any better. So we need to figure out how we can go back to creating those meaningful human bonds that we need. And today, my guest is Cal Fussman.

He's an expert interviewer, he's a writer, a journalist, a speaker, and the host of the Big Questions podcast. Now Cal is my friend and I've listened to his interviews and he's absolutely amazing at getting people feeling comfortable, sharing their secrets with him, and he's talked with some of the most powerful people in the world from Muhammad Ali to Jeff Bezos to Richard Branson. And he's gotten incredible stories out of these people. And he did that by creating comfort and trust.

So me and Cal ended up talking for about two hours. So we split this episode into two parts. Part one is a lot of storytelling from Cal and he's an excellent storyteller. And he tells us how he traveled the world and became an awesome interviewer by these travels because he had nowhere to stay and he had to convince people to allow him

to stay at their house. For 10 years, he traveled all over the world. And that's where he really honed his interview skills. So he tells us this story. We also talk about how to ask meaningful questions, how to listen better, how to storytell better, all of these skills we need as an entrepreneur so that we can build our network. So that's part one of the series. In part two, we focus on AI. But without further ado, here's my conversation with Cal Fussman. Cal, welcome to Young and

Profiting Podcast. I cannot think of a better place to be right now, Hala. Me either. I'm excited for this conversation. We're going to have a good one. I had the opportunity to go on your big questions podcast a couple months back, and then we became friends. We've talked since then. You're a great guy. I had such a great experience on your podcast because you were just such a good interviewer. You asked me questions that nobody asked before. And you were actually really honing in on a special skill that I have, which is reading ads.

And you were really impressed with the way that I read ads. And so I'm going to flip it back to you because I'm really impressed with the way that you interview people in general, right? You're just such a great host. You ask great questions, you're a great listener, and you really have obviously honed a real talent for being somebody who interviews others. So let's start here. Tell us about how you honed your skills as an interviewer, and walk us through your career journey in general. Okay, so let me take you back to November 1963. I'm in second grade, shortest guy in my class,

middle of the room. Miss Jaffe, the teacher, is called out in the afternoon. She comes back in a moment later, a different person. I mean, her face has turned to chalk, it's wearing the same clothes, but we are looking at somebody that has gone through something that we don't know what happened, but it's serious. And she tells us that President John F. Kennedy has just been shot. A little while later, everybody runs home, turns on the TV, and we listen to Walter Cronkite, who everybody watched on CBS back then, tell us that President Kennedy had been assassinated.

A little while later, we learn that Lyndon B. Johnson, the vice president, has stepped up, taken the oath of office. Now, I had just turned seven the week before. I'd never dealt with death before, and my parents, they didn't know how I was gonna take it. This was like a national tragedy. It was all anybody was talking about. I'm going to tell you how naive I was.

I thought if you had a middle initial, that meant you got to be president. Only people I ever heard of with middle initials were John F. Kennedy, now Lyndon B. Johnson, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman. So I'm thinking, this guy, Lyndon B. Johnson, he knew he was going to be the president. And how's he feeling? And I couldn't wrap my head around it because I didn't know if he was happy to be the president, if he was sad to be the president only because of the assassination, or if he was scared to be the president because they might want to kill him too.

So my parents called me over the kitchen table and they're saying, Cal, we just want to tell you that this is a terrible tragedy, but tomorrow morning, you're going to wake up, you're going to have breakfast just like you did last Saturday morning. You're going to go out and play. Things are going to return to normal.

Country's dealt with this before and you can sleep okay. So I take this in, they go to talk to my little brother and I'm sitting at the table and I just, I can't wrap my head around what this is going on in Lyndon B. Johnson's mind. So I pick up a pencil and piece of paper and I just start writing, Dear President Johnson, how does it feel?

Are you happy to be the president? Are you sad? Are you scared? And I wished him well. And the timing was perfect. We had just learned how to address an envelope in school. I knew where the stamps were, where the envelopes were,

fold the letter up, dress President Lyndon B. Johnson, the White House, lick a stamp. That's how we used to do it. Put it in the top right-hand corner and didn't tell anybody about it. Next day, went outside and I just took it with me and dropped it in the mailbox. For a couple of months passed,

just forgot about it. Till about six months later, my mom comes running into the apartment with an envelope in her right hand over her head from the White House addressed to me. And we open it up, it's from the president. And the amazing thing about it, Halle, was that it wasn't written to a second grader. It was written with dignity.

And I knew that because the second sentence began something like, in answer to your query, and I had no idea what a query was, but I knew suddenly the apartment was filled with people. They all wanted to hold this letter from the president. Principal of the school found out about it, was calling, wanted me to bring it in. And in that moment, my life changed

because I knew the power of a question. It could get you to the most powerful person on earth. And I knew that I was gonna spend the rest of my life asking questions and also telling stories about the answers I got, because the story about the letter to the president followed me around for the rest of my life. So that's where it started.

And very few people, you know, when we talked on big questions, you were telling me about your background, and it's very uncommon for people to know what they're going to do when they're six or seven years old. You might have thought you're going to be a singer. Yeah. You had a great voice and you had a lot of really smart people around you, siblings, and so maybe you thought you were gonna go into medicine.

Yeah, like everyone else. Yeah, I knew I was gonna spend the rest of my life asking questions and telling stories. It was done. So the next step, I went to journalism school and back then in the early 80s, this is before cable TV. Cable starting and ESPN, I think started in 1980. In the 70s, we came up in that era. It was a very cool thing to say, write a column for a newspaper. Everybody saw your face, you said what you want. It

was kind of like being the mayor of the town without having any of the problems. Just write, everybody loved you. That's what I wanted to do. When I was about 22, I actually saw my face in the newspaper writing a column. It made me aware that, oh man, this is great, but am I going to do this for the next 50 years? Is there more out there?

Yeah. This amazing magazine started in New York, and they called me and asked me to come. I went, and then it opened me up to interviewing all of the superstar athletes I ever wanted to meet. It was a dream, and then the magazine, which was a critical success, it was an entrepreneurial failure. The finances didn't work out, and all of a sudden I'm 23 years three years old and I have no idea what to do. Now you went through a lot of changes on your way up. Yeah, when I listened to your story, you almost became an expert at pivoting and knowing

where to go and transforming yourself. I didn't have that. I didn't know what to do. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Young and Profiters, there is no better time to become an entrepreneur. You just need a good idea and then you need to open up shop. And when it comes to opening up shop, you gotta try Shopify.

Shopify is the all-in-one global commerce platform that allows you to start, run, and grow your business. Whether you want to start an e-commerce store or it's an in-person store that needs a POS system, Shopify has got you covered. They're responsible for huge multi-million-billion-dollar brands like Albert's, Roth's, Brooklyn, and Thrive Cosmetics. These all started as Shopify startups and then expanded into retail, expanded and scaled.

It's no wonder 10% of all e-commerce is run on Shopify. Shopify is an amazing platform to start your business, whether you're selling candles or courses like I do. I do all my core sales on Shopify. My mastermind subscription, I do it on Shopify. Our email campaigns are integrated with Shopify. We do abandoned carts, we do promo codes with Shopify. Shopify lets us literally do anything we need

to promote and sell my masterclass and mastermind. It is definitely the top tier platform that you can use for your online business and for your in real life business too. If you wanna open up shop, try Shopify for just $1. Sign up for $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash profiting. Again, that's Shopify.com slash profiting,

all lowercase for a $1 per month trial period. And I wanna see you guys open up shop with Shopify. Yeah fam, one of my least favorite parts about being an entrepreneur is the hiring process. Man, it is expensive to get new hires. It is expensive to fire people. It is expensive to get it wrong. You don't wanna DIY your hiring. You want a tool that's gonna help you do everything

all in one place as efficiently as possible and get you the best candidates as possible, which is why I use Indeed. Indeed is your all-in-one solution for hiring. The moment you put up a job listing, you will get high quality candidates that match your needs. In fact, in the minute or so that I've been talking, 23 people have been hired on Indeed

according to Indeed Worldwide data. And a recent survey found that 93% of employers agree that Indeed delivers the highest quality matches compared to other job sites. It's way better than having to sift through a million resumes and waste your time. And I love that Indeed's matching engine actually gets better as you use it. It starts to learn your own preferences and what you're looking for and will get better and better as you use it. Again, you don't want to DIY your hiring.

So if you want to give Indeed a try and find your next A player, if you want to stop pouring money down the drain, you can get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash profiting. Support the show by letting them know that you found them on Young and Profiting podcast. Again, you can go to indeed.com slash profiting for a $75 sponsored job credit. Need to hire?

You need Indeed. So I called up my mom and dad and I said, you know, I think I'm just going to take some time off. I didn't really have much money and just travel a little and let things clear. This was the next big step in your question. Because principally for those four words, I had no money. I mean, I didn't have money to stay in hotels every night, even hostels.

And so the way this trip evolved was I would go to a train station or a bus station. And I would look for a destination that was coming up and just buy a ticket. It didn't matter really where it was going. What mattered to me was the walk down the aisle. I'm walking down that aisle and I am looking for an empty seat. Empty seat next to somebody who looks interesting, somebody I think is going to trust me. Because I know once I sit down in that one empty seat, I got to make my choice here, conversation is going to trust me because I know once I sit down in that one empty seat,

I got to make my choice here. Conversation is going to start. By the end of that conversation, by the end of that trip, I need them to invite me home. Oh my gosh. Otherwise, I got no roof over my head. Let me tell you how seriously I took this.

I'm walking down that aisle and I see a beautiful woman. No rings on her fingers. She could be smiling at me. She could be a supermodel. I just walked right on by. Because let's face it, man, she wasn't going to be taking me home. But that grandma on the back, that 83-year-old,

toothless grandma eating crackers out of her purse, she could be a winner. So I'd go to the back of the train in Hungary. I'd sit down next to grandma. She doesn't speak any English. I speak very little Hungarian. Hello, how are you? And I turned to her as the train starts rolling,

saying, what makes a great goulash? She has no idea. Now we're, it's a game of charades. We're just trying to make ourselves understood. The beauty of this time, this is before the Berlin Wall came down, this is Eastern Europe, young people who were learning English

saw this as like a tremendous opportunity to meet somebody that is American and could teach them English. So they would come over to these conversations and they say to grandma, he wants to know what makes a great goulash. And grandma looks at them makes a great goulash. And as grandma looks at them and says, you know, I've been riding this train for many, many years. I've seen some of you. And her chest is kind of swelling with pride because she wants to tell me all about her goulash.

But she says to them, never once has any of you come over to me and asked about my goulash. And this young man from thousands of kilometers away comes to Hungary because he wants to know about my goulash. Well, you tell him he's coming home with me and we're gonna prepare him goulash tomorrow night. And so the trade ride ends, grandma's coming home with me and we're going to prepare him goulash tomorrow night." And so the trade ride ends, grandma takes me home and next night I'm sitting at the

head of the table and she is on a roll. She's called her friends, her relatives, the whole room is packed with people. As grandma puts down the goulash right in front of me, I lift it up and as soon as it hits my lips, my eyes close with rapture and my cheeks rise and the crowd goes crazy. He loves grandma's goulash. And a five day party starts. Everybody wants to meet me. At which time somebody comes over and says,

have you by any chance ever tasted homemade apricot brandy? I said, no, because my father, he makes the best homemade apricot brandy you will ever taste. You've got to come to the house, taste this brandy. Okay. So we go over and we taste the brandy, at which time another guy comes over, asks me if I want to go to the Paprakash capital of the world. I must see it before I leave Hungary.

And that is how I started to get passed around the world. My gosh. Families took me in and then they called relatives and said, well, we got this American guy. And I literally, they put me on a bus. I would go to the other town. People would be waiting for me. And that became very addictive and it lasted for 10 years. Wow, 10 years.

You were traveling all around the world? Yes. Went through Europe, South America, some parts of Africa. I saved Asia for late in life, I don't know why. I just figured it seemed like the thing to do. And I also went all around North America and people just were incredibly accepting. And after a while I could get on the train or the bus

if people weren't passing me and just see which empty seat was the right one, sit in it and people, they took care of me. What an incredible story. And that's where I learned to interview. Because think about it, a lot of it is number one, making people feel comfortable. I felt comfortable the moment we started talking. On my podcast, on your podcast, that's the key.

If you can make somebody feel comfortable, then they're not crossed arms and holding things back. Now, when I started to travel, there was no internet. So often, two things happen. Number one, people would tell me secrets or try to tell me. They may not have spoken very good English, but they could tell me things that they wouldn't tell their neighbors or even family members because then it would get around. You didn't know anyone else, so.

I was gonna be gone and that might never be seen again. So we'd have these really intimate moments. And two, the second thing that happened, and this actually really translates into what I'm doing with workshops to bring people together. Because I would go into a town and everybody would come in the room and people would start talking about the place, what they loved about it, in ways that you would often see the other people who were seeing each other every day over things that they might not have realized about each other just because I was being curious.

They had accepted each other and I was just filled with questions. And so that was the huge, huge evolution that allowed me when the trip ended, I met a woman headed to a beach in Brazil, immediately fell in love, and she actually stood next to me, I didn't sit next to her. And we got married and came to United States. And that's when I started to work for Esquire Magazine,

where I took this style of interviewing into the room with the world leaders, presidents of the United States, Nelson Mandela, Mikhail Gorbachev of the Soviet Union, business leaders, Richard Branson and Jeff Bezos, all the actors, musicians. It was different for them because I just treated it like I was sitting next to them on the bus. I wasn't asking those journalistic questions that are supposed to get to

the core and which they're thinking they might not want to answer. I'm just going in curious. This column that came through it called What I've Learned, it was written in their words and contain the information that they were giving me, these nuggets of wisdom. It was completely different from anything you ever saw and it became the most popular feature in the magazine for about 20 years.

That's where it came from, this hybrid of knowing what I was supposed to do, with then innovating in a way that I had no idea where things were going, but I just allowed it to happen. There was preparation and understanding, but there was also a preparation to improvise, which may seem like a paradox,

but I can tell you a lot of stories about being caught in the moment where I was told an interview that I thought was going to be an hour and a half, had been cut down to 10 minutes with Mikhail Gorbachev, meaning the story was never going to be written. I had to figure out a way to make Mikhail Gorbachev want to talk to me for 40 minutes. I did. I did by asking him a single question. What was that? When I walked into the room, I knew I had to do something drastic. And when they told me I had only 10 minutes, I knew that, all right, it's

10 minutes, but it's gonna be two minutes of us shaking hands, sitting down, exchanging pleasantries. Plus, my questions would have to be translated into Russian, and his back into English. So it was down to like four minutes before. Yeah. I immediately looked at him and you could just tell he was in town to speak about abolishing nuclear weapons. I could immediately tell he was expecting my first question to be

about nuclear weapons, world events, what it's like to be negotiating with President Ronald Reagan. And I immediately just looked in his eyes and said, what's the best lesson your father ever taught you? And he just didn't say anything. He just kind of was looking up. And when people look up to the right, after you've asked them a question, you know they're looking deep inside themselves. And time is passing and he didn't say anything.

And then he's looking at the ceiling as if there's a movie playing on it. And he starts telling me this story. He was a boy and his dad got called up to fight in World War II. And the Gorbachev's lived on a farm and he's describing this trip from the farm to the town to drop the dad off with all the other soldiers. And he's describing it in this detail and I'm sitting there thinking, oh man, you just messed up, Cal.

That's the worst question. This interview can be over before the Gorbachev's even get to town. But they do get to town. And when they get to town, Mr. Gorbachev takes the family into a little shop and he gets everybody some ice cream. And Gorbachev is remembering this ice cream. He's remembering the aluminum cup that it was served in. And he's talking about this cup of ice cream

as if it's in the palm of his hand. And the more he's talking about this cup of ice cream as if it's in the palm of his hand. And the more he's talking about it, it's like we both have this realization that, man, this cup of ice cream is the reason he was able to make peace with Ronald Reagan and end the Cold War. Because this cup of ice cream contained the memory of what it was like just before your father went to war. The dread of not

knowing whether you'd ever see him again. So he's looking at the ice cream, I'm looking at the ice cream, he's looking at the ice cream, looking up at each other and we're thinking, man, this is deep. Just then the publicist, who was the one who called me and said, you know, remember that interview that I told you would be an hour and a half, it's only 10 minutes. She comes through the door and said, Ms. Gorbachev, time for the interview, we'll you would be an hour and a half, it's only 10 minutes. She comes through the door and said, Mr. Gorbachev, time for the interview will have to be over. He looks at her and says, no, I want to talk to him.

She's shocked and slowly backs out the door, and the conversation continues and goes deeper. Ten minutes later, Pulsus comes in again, this time a little more sheepishly. Says, Mr. Gorbachev, Cal, time. No, Gorbachev, I wanna talk to him. She backs out the room.

The conversation continues, goes deeper till 10, 20 minutes pass and she comes in and now she is at the edge. Like, Mr. Gorbachev, Cal, please, the day was planned to the minute. We got a long line of people out the door to see Mr. Gorbachev, please. And Gorbachev looks at me and he smiles and he says, you know, hey, what can I do? And we concluded the interview, but I had had the material to fill out the column. It was a huge success. When I thought back on why,

Hala, I realized that I never would have gotten that insight if I hadn't asked my first question to the heart. If I'd gone in with a canned question, would have gotten a canned answer. Interview would have been over in six minutes, 10 minutes, whatever, and I never would have known what was possible. That's a piece of advice I tell everybody and entrepreneurs,

especially, you meet somebody, try and aim your first question for the heart. Because once you've reached into somebody's heart, you can then take it to the head and then follow the heart and the head on a pathway to the soul. And so I hope that somebody who's listening is gonna put that to good use.

What an incredible story. I love hearing about your journey. And it's so cool that you got your interviewing skills just living real life. And we were talking offline how a lot of my listeners, they're not podcasters. They're entrepreneurs, they're small business owners, they're corporate professionals.

But we all need to learn how to make people comfortable, how to be good listeners, how to ask good questions, how to build relationships, because that's what it's all about. And to grow in your business, you need to have a powerful network. You need to be good at making relationships, having people trust you, be comfortable with you and so on. So let's start there. You mentioned that you know how to make people feel comfortable. What's your advice in terms of tactics

to get people to feel comfortable to open up? Okay, let's say I'm an entrepreneur selling something. What's the most important thing to me? Knowing what my customer or would-be customer is thinking. There's nothing more important. You can have the greatest idea in the world. If there are no customers that want it, it's not gonna fly.

So just asking your customer or potential customer or anybody that you're talking to about the thing that you are trying to create or that you're selling to get a gauge on whether they would be interested in purchasing it or whether they know somebody who'd be interested in purchasing it. That's the bedrock right there. And so many times I run into entrepreneurs and they don't ask those questions. And when I'm talking about asking those questions, it's different. This gets to your question. It's very different from putting out a survey that says on a scale of one to 10, what do you think of this?

Is it a six? Is it a seven? Whose six is another person's nine? We don't know that. It's very different from looking somebody in the eye and saying, what do you think about this? Do you like this? Does it bother you in any way? I think you find that people will be Do you like this? Does it bother you in any way?

And I think you'll find that people will be happy to tell you how they feel or think. And then you can actually take it deeper because you may have ideas on which way to go. And you can say, would you like it better if I chose A? Or would you like it better if I chose A or would you like it better if I chose B? And maybe they might have an idea. Man, you know, there's a t-shirts, life is good. It's got this smiling face that became famous. The whole brand was done around it. And it only came about because there was a party that the owner's home, they had been trying to sell these shirts for like six years on college campuses,

getting soaked in the rain, getting thrown off campuses, not having a license, just barely making it. It was their dream. And all of a sudden they had one party and somebody put this image of a smiling face on the wall. And as soon as they saw it, they said, there it is. That's the centerpiece of our brand. And these things happen because you're asking people

to either look at something and respond to it, or maybe they have an idea that's going to change your life because you were in one place but their idea will take you to another. You know, there's a story about Steve Jobs when he was creating the Apple Store. He really wanted to do this, and there are a lot of people in the company and this is after he came back from being fired. There was still pushback on a lot of things he wanted and the store was one of them because they're saying you're going to put these stores in the mall, nobody's going to go into these stores and not only

does he want to do it but he wants to do it on a really high level spending a lot of money. And they designed one in California as a model and he's on his way to see it. It's just about to be shown and he gets in the car with somebody who we really trusted and also worked at Apple. And the guy said, Steve, Steve this is wrong it's not it it's not designed right and Jobs went crazy shut up like I don't want to hear and then was silent for the rest of the ride and he didn't even say anything to

him in the car they went into the store, and Jobs had to give a talk about this being the store of the future. He just said, no, this isn't right. We got to reconfigure this. People have to help you. Here's the thing, Holla, that this is where I'm actually, my whole life is going. It is a sign of a good interviewer because you took me on this wild route to the place where I am going.

I am trying to connect people. I think we live in a really disconnected time, at least from my perspective, because I can remember how things connected in the 60s, 70s, 80s. I was there. And we really have to think about how our connections help us collaborate better. You being in a room alone

is not gonna really stand much of a chance against having ideas about what you're doing come at you and having teams of people collaborating to get the most out of themselves. But we're all remote working now. I'm not saying this is bad. I get it. It's all good. It's just that there's got to be a framework for people to be able to, a couple of times a year, get together so they understand who they're working with. They understand what that person appreciates. It's not just a Zoom call. You know, there's a book like The Five Love Langu languages where it was written by like a psychologist and he was really smart because he talked to so many people who are having troubles

in their love life. But there's different ways that we want to feel loved. Some people, they need to hear it. Some people, they need a present. In his case, it was five, but it's no different at work. they need a present. In his case, it was five, but it's no different at work. There are some people who need to hear, hey, what you did is great. Some people don't need to hear it, but maybe they're looking for a gift of sorts. Yeah, a raise or a bonus or something.

Exactly, everybody's got a different way. And if I don't think that comes through Zoom calls, serendipity comes when you don't know what's going to happen next. On a Zoom call, you kind of know this is what the Zoom call is about. So I think it's so important to look for ways, especially if you're an entrepreneur, to connect with people face to face and ask some questions people want to be listened to. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.

That's why I wanted to have this conversation because I feel like you have so much to offer to get people to open up to get real bonds with people because I feel like asking good questions, relevant questions that elicit meaningful responses, actually listening is the basis of all relationships. That's what a relationship is. It's asking good questions and listening and having an authentic conversation. You know this really overlaps with business. I'm gonna give a talk next week and I'm just thinking about this topic because okay you know I started out asking questions, writing. Now I talk and talk for companies about this and something occurred to me when I thought back on a story I wrote at the end of last century about learning to be a sommelier

and that is the idea of you go into like anscale restaurant, and there's somebody who comes over and is going to match the wine for the moment. I trained under the best sommelier in America, a woman named Andrea Emmer. Do you follow the WNBA women's basketball now? I don't. You've got to watch Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, but Caitlin Clark is somebody who's going to be one of the biggest people in America. See, this is why I love it, Holland. Young and profiting. And I feel like I'm young and profiting telling

you about these young people who are profiting. This woman, she just graduated from college last year. It went from games in the WNBA where they might get 3,000 people. Now they're going to bigger arenas and selling out. People are paying $400 tickets to see her. Caitlin Clark, and she shoots from nearly half court, and the ball goes in a lot of times, and she passes it in a way you can't imagine it. Well, this woman that I'm talking about,

this sommelier, Andrea Emmer, the best way I could describe her was she was like Caitlin Clark. She walked out on the floor and she did something that is incredibly entrepreneurial and incredibly business-like, even though you didn't know it because you thought she was just enhancing the experience that you're going to get the best bottle of wine at a price that you could afford. I thought about it and I realized that sales is leadership, and leadership is sales. So follow me on this.

Follow me. She's going around, she's starting a conversation with the people at the table. What is she doing? Is this exactly what you're saying, Hala? She's asking questions. What are you having to eat? What kind of wines do you like? What tastes do you like? Because she's got to pick the best wines for them.

But also she's got to be very cognizant of the price. Somebody at that table is paying and she doesn't want anybody to feel uncomfortable by bringing up, well, this is going to cost you 80 bucks. You want the $80 bottle, you want the $20 bottle. And look, back then, it always made me feel a little uncomfortable when that sommelier or the waiter came over because I didn't know anything about wine until I went and learned about it and You could easily get ripped off

Because you know the waiter could tell you anything and any just it could sell you a bottle that they weren't moving They just wanted to get a Yeah, but a high price to it and you didn't know the difference. Yeah, you would have know. I watched her ask these questions, listen and connect the dots because she had a wine list that had 1,500 wines in it. She knew these wines. She had stories about the wines and she could describe the wines to people. Then she would figure out who's picking up the tab and she'd, without anybody else saying, point to, do you like this one

and then, but she's pointing not to the wine, to the price. Are you thinking of like the 20, the 35, or the 50, without anybody else at the table knowing. Anybody else at the table is watching her work, they're thinking we're getting the best experience. And what is she doing? She's selling, but she's also leading the table to the best choice for them.

And then when they make a decision and they love it, it's like watching Caitlin Clark throw up a three-pointer. The people are so happy. And what happens afterward? The people leave, but they want to come back. They want to buy again. Not only that, they want to tell their friends, I know Andrea. She's the best sommelier in America, went through the competition. She's the best.

Tell her you know me and you're going to get a great experience. And so you see the leadership behind all this because she's literally leading people people to come back in she's leading them to tell other people to come back in and That is a great great strategy for an entrepreneur if you can listen like that and you can connect the dots and Then gently nudge people. Don't throw down some big deck and say, buy this or buy that. No, you gently nudge them so that they actually think

it's their decision. Even though you were guiding them all along, which is what does a great leader do? You know, he or she puts out the information that makes the people look up and say, yeah, I want to get behind that and then make it their own. So all these basic skills that you would think, oh, Cal's a, he's a writer, he's a journalist. No, it's the same thing. It comes down to asking the right question,

listening, connecting the dots, telling the story, and then the little nudge. That's sales and that's leadership. It's the same. I learned something from my client and she talks about the laws of likability. And she taught me about three stages of listening, which I thought were really interesting. So there's inward listening.

So somebody says, Hala, I love Thai food. And you're just like, me too. Thai food's my favorite food. Then there's outward listening where it's like, Hala, I love Thai food. And you actually reflected like, me too, Thai food's my favorite food. Then there's outward listening where it's like, Hala, I love Thai food. And you actually reflected back on the person to keep learning about them. And you say, oh, really?

Like, what's your favorite Thai food spot? Or what's your favorite food? Or why do you even like Thai food? And you make it more about them, not just reflecting about yourself right away, right? And then there's intuitive listening. How I love Thai food so much. Oh my gosh, you sound so excited.

Are you thinking about going to Thailand one day? You're not just listening to what they're saying. You're trying to feel like how they're feeling about it. I always carry that with me because a lot of people are at this first level of listening where they're really just only thinking about their own experiences. They're asking a question just to respond back to give their own story or their own

opinion where really if you want people to like you and really deepen the relationship, you want to keep digging deeper and deeper and tell them that you're listening by doing that and then they'll like you more because they realize like, oh, you're listening by doing that. And then they'll like you more because they realize like, oh, you're listening to me because you're deepening the questioning about what I'm even saying, not just going back to yourself. Yeah. Do you really care what I think? As opposed to the first brand

of listening that you're talking about, which is listening while you're not really listening, you're talking about, which is listening. While you're not really listening, you're thinking of what you want to say next. Exactly. These things are incredibly important whether you are hosting a podcast, writing a story as a journalist, telling a story, being an entrepreneur,

working in a company. It's the bedrock of connection. And if you think of it this way, if you can't connect as best you can, how can you collaborate as best you can? It just doesn't make sense. Connection is collaboration. LESLIE KENDRICK You must have told like a hundred stories on this podcast, so I have to ask you, what is your formula for telling a good story? It's probably coming so naturally to you now, but if you had to teach somebody else how to do this and be engaging, what would you say? BARRY FISHER This is basically the hero's journey. Everybody can do this.

Everybody's an expert at it. Why? Because they've seen this a million times on movies. And in fact, what I'm going to do is I'm going to give you six steps and then I'm going to come back to you and ask, okay, Hala, give me your favorite movie and take the main character and guide them through these six steps and you'll see. It works because this is the formula

that's employed by Hollywood. Now, if it's an independent movie that goes all over the place, a little different, but if it's a big selling Hollywood movie, it follows along these lines. So one, you need a vulnerable character. There is no story without a vulnerable character. Done. Nobody cares otherwise. Nobody cares otherwise. We need to see some kind of vulnerability. And not only that, but step number two is we need to see intention of that vulnerable character

to get past their vulnerability to wherever they want to go. So you got steps one and two, vulnerable character, intention to get to a better place. Step three, obstacles. Obstacles come up and stop the vulnerable character from getting where they want to go. Step number four, a mentor appears. Some kind of mentor who has maybe been to this experience before,

has wisdom around it. Maybe they don't have any wisdom, but they got ideas that can help the vulnerable character get past the obstacles and get to a place of transformation. Now, through the first four steps, we've seen the vulnerable character stymied from the beginning, running into obstacles, but now they've met somebody along the journey that's

taught them something to get to that following place. But you know what? It's not enough. There's still another obstacle to stop the vulnerable character. And as they're going through this, they're applying everything they've learned along the way. And, you know, use the force, Luke.

And then step six is a place of transformation where everything that the vulnerable character has learned has been applied. They get past the obstacles to a place of transformation that you might not have even really seen what's coming. All right. So give me a movie that you love. Give me a character that was vulnerable. Let's go through the six steps. I feel like I hate this exercise because I don't watch a lot of movies, but why don't

we do Barbie, the latest Barbie movie. Did you watch that? I did. Okay. Twice. I feel like I never remember movies. What happened with her in that movie? She starts out great.

She starts out, everything's perfect, right? Yeah, she's like, lives in a perfect world. She's dating Ken, they're happy, and then she, what is it? She goes to the real world, right? She starts getting like feet basically, right? She gets her feet. She wakes up one day and it's not perfect. And that's what sets her off on the journey.

And she goes to look for a mentor who says, you gotta go into the real world. So you see that Barbie started with everything perfect, but then something happened that just made her imperfect. And then there you go, that starts her on her hero's journey to get back the perfect world. Now, in the meantime, all these things get shaken up that puts Ken in a new position

where this vulnerable guy all of a sudden finds out about this world driven by masculinity and he's going to become somewhat different. And you see them, she's going to meet people. She meets a mom and a daughter, and the daughter doesn't like her, and she can't believe it. Obstacle, obstacles. Then the mom actually has to step up, and mom has the love of Barbie because different generations. So you see them fighting through all the obstacles,

but more than one mentor is coming in here, people who are helping Barbie on the journey. Then toward the end, what's happened? Barbie's world has been flipped upside down, and now you've got women who were strong and assertive and ready to run the Supreme Court are now putting their heads on the shoulders of men who are playing crappy guitar and just being in love. And everything has got to be flipped over for And everything has got to be flipped over for Barbie to have her world back. And so that journey just, it follows this whole pattern of finding mentors.

In that case, many obstacles keep coming up and Barbie is in shock to find out that a young girl can actually not like her and that the way her world is, is no longer the way. And then meet the person who created this world. And in the end, the world is through her efforts turned back right side up, and the hero's journey is complete. Using those six steps, anybody can tell a story, but we're talking about entrepreneurs. It's a little different when you tell a business story.

Why? Because in the business story, you cannot be the hero. The hero is a vulnerable person. In this case, when you're telling your business story, the hero is your client. Yeah, the customer is the hero. The customer has an issue that needs to be resolved and your product is the solution.

So what happens is the customer is vulnerable. The customer wants better. They have an intention to improve, but the customer can't get the right product. The mentor comes in, it's your company. You are now the mentor. Your business is the mentor and your business is showing the client how they can get what they want. They don't have to be vulnerable anymore. You will take them past the obstacles to a point of transformation and make them

happy. And that is the business way of going through those six steps. Very important, because I don't want entrepreneurs to be thinking they can be Barbie and go through that journey, because you don't want to look vulnerable. You want your product to be the solution, not the character that needs a solution. And you can use these stories if you're doing presentations or throughout your website or on social media.

You want to write stories to help people really connect with your brand and what you're selling and feel like they could be that hero, that customer, and relate to the stories that you're telling. So you know that I'm an entrepreneur, I run a business with 60 employees, and I'm hiring all the time. One of the skills that I find that a lot of people do not have is writing. So I find that still in my business, I'm writing so many of the communications.

I'm writing the emails. I'm not writing social posts. I have an awesome social team that's writing for clients and stuff. But when it comes to writing programs or FAQs or anything that I need, either internally or very important external stuff, I feel like I'm still the best writer. I feel like it's so hard to train people to just write clearly and just effectively. So I just want your guidance.

You're a professional writer. How can people level up their writing skills because people just don't have good writing skills? I love the question because it made me think deeper. Number one, you could probably solve the problem by searching for somebody in a position that's extremely clear when you put out your job posting, when you put out your job posting, letting them know this is a position for somebody who thinks clearly, communicates clearly, writes clearly, speaks clearly. This is my number one requirement from my executive assistant. You literally have a job post out and it's just like you need to be able to think clearly, write clearly. And if you can't, then please don't apply for this job because

this is something that we are not going to take the time to train somebody to do. We want somebody who wakes up in the morning and when they look in the mirror, they see clarity. Okay, Young and Profiters, so that was the first part of my conversation with Cal Fussman. Even if you're not a podcaster and you never conduct any interviews, I hope you took to heart some of the things that Cal said about the art of interviewing. Because so much of getting along and getting ahead in the business world is about learning to get along with other people, to make them comfortable to ask the right questions and to build relationships with them.

I loved Cal's approach of never sitting down next to an empty seat. Whether it's on a bus in a foreign country or in a room of executives. A healthy curiosity about other people is a skill of its own, and you can't develop it by sitting on your own, or by hiding in an office or behind a computer. Making others feel comfortable and engaging them in conversation can tell you so much about how they see the world, which can be invaluable business intelligence. And like Cal said, most people want to tell you so much about how they see the world, which can be invaluable business intelligence. And like Cal said, most people want to tell you what they think. They're eager to share feedback and ideas.

And they're secrets. You just have to know how to prime the pump. In part two of my conversation with Cal Fussman, we're going to take a deep dive into another skill that's becoming increasingly essential to have in the business world, knowing how to use AI. Are you engaging enough with AI tools? If you're not, like me, then what can help you get started? Stay tuned and check out the next episode of Young and Profiting to find out. Thanks for listening to this episode.

If you listened, learned, and profited from it, then why not share Young and Profiting with a friend or maybe even engage them in a conversation about the show. And if you did enjoy the show and you learned something, then why not drop us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. If you prefer to watch your podcast as videos, you can find us on YouTube. Just look up Young and Profiting. You'll find all of our episodes on there. If you're looking to get in touch with me, you can find me on Instagram or LinkedIn by searching my name. It's Halla Taha. And as always, I've got to thank my production team for all their hard work. You guys are awesome. Thank you for all that you do. This is your host, Halataha, aka The Podcast Princess, signing off. you