Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Jeff Haden: The Motivation Myth | E148

Episode Date: January 3, 2022

Have you been searching for motivation in your life but don’t know where to look?  This week on YAP, we’re talking with Jeff Haden, speaker, ghostwriter, and author of The Motivation Myth. He is also a frequent, and the most popular, contributor to Inc. magazine. He is a contributing editor for Inc. Magazine and a major LinkedIn Influencer, having amassed over 1 million followers.  Jeff is also the ghostwriter of over sixty non-fiction books, including seven Amazon category #1s. Along with thousands of columns, articles, presentations, speeches, eulogies. Jeff is a keynote speaker and the founder of Blackbird Media. In this episode, we talk about Jeff’s career journey from working in printer manufacturing plants to becoming a highly sought after ghostwriter for some of the most recognizable CEOs and business leaders. We’ll hear his tips on how to improve our skill sets, how having the correct partner in your life can impact your professional life, and where motivation comes from. Finally we discuss what to cut out of our lives in order to stay focused and motivated on our goals, including why he recommends we fire a friend.  If you’ve been looking to find motivation in your life and your side hustles, this episode is for you! Sponsored by -  Athletic Greens - Visit athleticgreens.com/YAP and get FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. Nearside - Go to nearside.com/yap to sign up for your Nearside Business Checking account! BrandCrowd - Check out brandcrowd.com/yap to learn more, play with the tool for free, and get 73% off your purchase.   Charles Schwab - Learn more at Schwab.com/plan Social Media: Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Follow Hala on Clubhouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Timestamps: 00:06 - 0:28 Intro 00:29 Career Journey/Path to Becoming a Writer 14:43 Putting In Hard Work For Success 19:24 Importance of Having A Good Support System 24:30 Side Hustling/Moonlighting 26:38 Improving Your Skill Set/Finding Motivation 31:41 Setting Goals/Celebrating Small Wins 35:10 Motivation Myth/ The Book 38:31 Where Motivation Comes From 43:01 Skill Expanding 45:19 How to Stay Focused to Achieve Goals 53:29 Cut A Personal Commitment 55:13 Cut an Expense 56:53 Fire a Friend 59:37 Right & Wrong Way to Talk to Ourselves 1:03:35 Secret to Profiting in Life 1:07:11 Outro Mentioned In The Episode: Jeff’s Book, The Motivation Myth - https://www.jeffhaden.com/get-the-book Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Source. Taxes and other fee still apply. You're listening to YAP, Young and Profiting Podcast. A place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday

life, no matter your age, profession or industry. There's no fluff on this podcast, and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhancing productivity,

had to gain influence, the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button because you'll love it here at Young & Profiting Podcast. This week on YAP, we're chatting with Jeff Hayden. Jeff is an author, speaker, and a very accomplished ghostwriter of over sixty non-fiction books. His most recent book, The Motivation Mess, has helped thousands

of people find new motivation, create stronger routines, and more effectively manage their time. Jeff is also the founder of Blackbird Media, a contributing editor for Ink magazine, and he's a major LinkedIn influencer, having a mast over 1 million followers. In this episode, we first take a look at Jeff's career journey, from his beginnings and print manufacturing to his forte into entrepreneurship to becoming one of the most prominent ghost writers in the world. We then dig into his book, The Motivation Myth, which overturns the idea that motivation leads to success and instead tells us that small successes lead to constant motivation.

We close the interview with Jeff giving his best time management hacks, which include cutting three things out of your life, a personal commitment and expense and a friend. If you've been looking to find motivation in your life and make time for the things that matter the most, you'll want to tune into this one. Hi, Jeff.

Welcome to Young & Profiting Podcast. Oh, thanks for having me, Halla. I am super excited to have you on today. So you are a contributor to Ink Magazine. You've also ghost written over 50 books and you're an author yourself of one of your recent books is called The Motivation Methods, quite popular. So we'll go into that later. But before we do that, I'd love to get inside about people's career journeys.

So from my understanding, you had lots of little jobs, and you always worked really hard in these little jobs as you were starting out in your career. Walk us through your career journey, talk to us about the different jobs that you had, and how that ultimately helped shape your career as a writer. So stop me if I go way too long. So I worked my way through college

and I did it in a manufacturing plant and I really enjoyed manufacturing. I liked that. So when I was graduating, I interviewed for lots of jobs and they were all with like 40-year-old men in cubicles. That's what the job was gonna be. And of course, I was 22. And so the idea of that seemed like death.

And I liked manufacturing. And so the plant manager where I had worked said, there's a new factory opening up in this town. It's a Fortune 500 company. It actually turns out they were the largest commercial printers in the world. And so if you like manufacturing, but see a career path that takes you into management and leadership and beyond.

This would be a great place to go because you can ground floor at the facility and work you way up. So I thought, well, that sounds awesome. So I went and did that. And I was the stereotypical college boy on the shop floor, which was both good and bad because one people didn't think that I would work hard because I was the college boy. So I got to surprise them with that. But then it also, you know, the fact that I had some education and had some, some ideas of what I wanted to do beyond just being, you know, a machine operator or something

like that, that was also advantageous too. So the cool thing about it, the company is R R Donnelly. And while they nested, not necessarily would pay you more every time you got promoted, which is an interesting thing, they would allow you to basically learn anything that you wanted to learn. And if you wanted to get involved in other stuff, then there were opportunities to do so.

So it was a great place to learn all sorts of stuff. And as I worked my way up the ladder, I had lots of informal leadership positions. I worked in HR for a while. I worked in customer service for a while. I worked in other manufacturing departments. I went and helped start up a plant. I went to another plant where they were hoping to get the union decertified. And we were successful there. I worked on cross-plant projects. So I got exposed to this really broad range of things that I probably never would have, even if I had changed jobs six or eight times.

So I worked at the same place for 17 years. And but yet it was as if I worked at a whole bunch of different places because of the experiences that I got to have. So to put a cap on that, my goal from the very beginning was that I'd always wanted to run a plant. You know, I wanted to be the plant manager.

And so the only way that that was going to happen at Donnelly was at the time you had to go off and work in sales for a while, and they almost had this little list of things that you had to check off. And it really didn't want to do that. And so an opportunity to go to a smaller plant for another, it was actually a VC firm that had bought the company and try to turn it around. So the goal was either to say, can we turn it around? Or do we just prepare it to sell? And hopefully for a profit.

So I went there and did that for three years. And what I learned was that my dream of being a plant manager didn't turn out to be what I wanted to spend the next 20 years doing, which, you know, that does happen. And we'll get back to that in a second because people get hung up on the idea that if they've embarked on a career path to a certain point, that there's all that time and effort and energy and quote unquote investment that they've put into it. And therefore they can't get off that train. And I disagree with that completely. And

we'll talk about that later, I'm sure. So I was at home, my wife would say, well, I would say that I was just discussing the fact that I wanted to do something different professionally. My wife would say that I was whining about it, which is probably more closer to the truth. And so one day she said, what is it you would want to do if you didn't do this? And I, I don't know why, but I said,

I'd like to be a writer, I think. Now, I never, I didn't have no journalism background, no writing background. The only thing I'd ever written was things that I wrote for work, but I liked it. And so she said, what does that look like? And I said, like most people that have a dream, but no real path, I don't know. I don't even know how to get started. So three more months of me complaining and whining and wishing I could do something else. And she came home and said, I got you your first writing job, you're going to write a press release for a startup. I was like, wait, what? You know, because that seemed bizarre, but she had met a guy who had a tech company. He was starting up and he wanted a press release. And she said, well,

my husband can do that for you. So it turned out to be the worst paying job I've ever had in terms of hourly rate because it took me forever. I'd never written a press release, didn't know anything about it. You know, struggled and finally kind of copied formats that I'd seen in other places that I thought worked and you know, through quotes into the right place and all that other stuff turned it into him.

And it's odd because I kind of hated it because I was so unfamiliar. This also happens to people. You reach a certain point in your path where you have this level of competence and it feels comfortable to you. And so when you dive out into something that's completely new and you've never done before, suddenly it feels really awful because you're used to being competent and now you're not.

And it takes that learning to be uncomfortable. It's a great phrase to use. It's a terrible one to live at the beginning. And so I hated it, but I kind of liked it. And then he liked what I had done. And he hired me to do a couple other things. And so I thought, well, this is kind of fun. Now keep in mind, I'm still working.

I'm still running a plan. This is just nights and weekends stuff. And so then one day she came home and she said, you know, you've been looking for other work. So I signed you up on it. The time it was called E-Lance. Now I think it's called Upwork, but it's one of those sites where,

well, you know what it is. So, you know, people that want to provide services link up with people that need services. And so she'd signed me up there and created a profile for me and bid on some jobs and she got me a couple of writing jobs. And again, I was like, I don't know how do I do this, but I just kind of knuckled down and sort of figured it out and got better at it.

And so the beauty of that whole approach of trying something new and being uncomfortable and not really having a really good plan is that the only thing I could figure out to do was, so if I need to write this for you, for example, then my job is to please you as a customer. That's the only thing I knew that I could do. So I wasn't worried about expressing some inner creative itch or, you know, any of that other stuff. All I knew was that I wanted you to be happy because I was going to feel terrible about myself if you were not. And so that gave me this customer-focused attitude that carried with me the rest of the way. And so as I got more successful and had written for more people and was writing my own things and stuff, you know, people will ask me, how do I get started writing? You know, I really want to write, I really want to

make a living. And I will tell them, well, you have to write at first for other people and you just have to take work that pays and stuff and they think they will say, you have an only want to do that. I want to write things that I enjoy and I want to write things that are fulfilling or whatever and I always say, well, then, you know, unless you're Stephen King, nobody's going to pay you. So, you know, you have to build to a place where you can express some of those things because you have an audience and a platform and some level of success, but you can't do it right away because nobody cares.

And that attitude actually held me back in a weird way for a long time because I started writing for ink. That was also because of my wife because the problem with ghost writing is that, you know, it's all confidential. And so you can't market yourself very well because you can't say who you've written for or what you've written. So all you can kind of do is hold up your hands and say, I promise I'll try hard and I'll do a good job.

And she said, well, you need some stuff in your own name. And so I thought, nobody wants to read anything by me because I had written some things that they'd hit best-seller list, they'd topped best-seller list, but they weren't me. And you know, I wrote them, but they weren't in my name. So I had no connection to anyone. And she said, yeah, but that's kind of what you have to do. And if you get some things out there that people enjoy and they see you're a ghost rider, well, then that's a way that you can market yourself. Because at least they'll say, oh, I really like this. Oh, and he's a ghost rider. Hey, this may be someone that I want to talk to. And of course, as with all the other advice that she's ever given me, it turned out to be correct.

And so, you know, it turned out that basically ink paid me and pays me for the content that I produce, but it also is marketing and advertising material, if you want to think about it that way, because people see that. But that idea that no one wanted to read anything by me did hold me back for a while. And so I finally, I had been pitched by a number of agents about you should do a book, you've got a platform, you should do a book, you should do a book, and I kept saying nobody wants to read mine. You know, they want to read it by whoever I've written for.

And so I finally, one agent was really nice and kind of pitched me in a very down to earth, like not cheesy canned stuffy way. And I thought, well, let's let's just see. So I came up with an idea. I think I wrote a proposal. I think I spent about six hours on my book proposal. That's really short comparatively. Like most people spend months. Yeah. But I just I just thought, well, here's my idea.. And I did. That's really short comparatively. Like most people spend months. Yeah, but I just, I just thought, well, here's my idea. And then I thought, well, you know, I have a certain writing style and it's informal

and it's not too casual, but it tends, I try to establish rapport with a reader and make it like a smart conversation and not like something professorial or two studios. And so I thought, well, that's how I'm gonna, if I'm gonna write a book, that's how it's gonna be because I'm not gonna enjoy it if I, if I don't. And so I might as well, that's how I'm going to, if I'm going to write a book, that's how it's going to be, because I'm not going to enjoy it if I, if I don't. And so I might as well do my book proposal the same way. And besides, if all these things are true about, I have a

platform and I have a way to market and all those other things that you're talking about. And that does carry a tremendous amount of weight with publishers, you know, the idea is important, but your ability to market it matters just as much. And so I thought, well, if all those things are true, and I don't really have to like kill myself convincing somebody that I can deliver. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to write it like I write everything else and take a shot. So I didn't even include a sample chapter, which you know, is you're supposed to have at least one sample chapter and preferably three. I didn't even do that. And so my agent said, you know, this is different to anything I've ever seen. I do think you probably need a sample chapter though. I was

like, so I wrote a sample chapter. I think I did that over a weekend. Row one of those. We put it together. She put it out. And I don't know if this is too deep for her, too much detail. I love this. There's so much to unpack because it all relates to stuff we're going to talk about later. So she puts it out and she says to me, all right, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to send it to all the major publishing houses. And I'm going to say you have two days to respond that Jeff will be in New York on these two days, like a month ahead.

And if you want to book a time, you have two days to do that. And we'll meet with you. And I said to her, I said, that sounds really aggressive to me because shouldn't we be like almost begging them to talk to me, not saying, you know, if you're lucky, you get to me with me, and she's not trust me, it'll work. So I thought, okay, well, this is, this is what you do for a living. You know, so let's try that. But I thought it was going to fail miserably. But we got 14 meetings and so I go up there a month later. We're walking to the first one and you know, I'm expecting like I've been preparing for this. I don't always prepare super well, but this one I had prepared for and so I was thinking you know, I've probably got a cellum. I need to be engaging, I need to be dynamic, I need to make sure they understand I could pull this off.

My ideas are compelling and, you know, I tried to create almost like a pitch of sorts where I was going to be ready. And so I walk in this first room and there's like 14 people and me and my agent and I looked around and thought, well, I got a lot of people I have to pitch. And I didn't have to pitch this all because the entire time they were trying to convince me that I was where I, that they were what I needed to be. I already can do it. Yeah, so they were like, hey, we want you.

And let's, here's what we can do for you. And I was like, well, this is a whole lot more fun than what I thought it was gonna be. So I spent two days walking around with different publishers saying, you know, we want you, you should come here, here's why you're a good fit. Only one of them that I talked to, and this brought me back down to her a little bit,

you know, we talked for a little bit and she said, you know, be honest, I just took the meeting because I thought it might be interesting, but you know, you're really not a good fit for me or for us and so. And I thought, okay, that feels bad. Which is kind of funny because before so, and I thought, okay, that feels bad, which is kind of funny because before

that, as I walked into them, even that response would have been better than no use suck get out of here, which is what I was expecting. And yet I had already flipped over to, wow, I'm a big man, you know, these people all want me. So what was cool about that whole process was then she gave them three days to submit their bid for what my advance would be in the terms and stuff. And again, I said to her, gosh, that's quick. And she said, no, it's really not because if they decided they were interested in the first place, they've already done their math. They already know what they think they're going to do. So giving more time doesn't do anything. I thought, okay, that's cool. And so got a number of offers and the two highest ones.

Wait a minute. Before their offers came in, she said to me, based on everybody we talked to, if money and all the other terms are all equal, where did you feel like you wanted to be? Because that was kind of important. And so I picked one that I thought, you know, that's where I would like to be. And as it turned out, that one was, their bid was equal high bid with one other publisher. So I didn't really have a decision to make because it's like, oh, that's where I want to be and they're offering me the most money.

And so how can I be done? It's great because it just goes to show. When you do the hard work and you earn it, like you spend years writing and ghost writing, you built up your LinkedIn profile to hundreds of thousands of followers. You built a name for yourself and you put in the hard work so there was no convincing to do. A lot of people try to do it the other way where they want the shortcut to success, but there's no shortcut. You've got to put in the hard work. Yeah, that's a really good point and I have a project that I'm working on now that I

I just thought the person wanted to chat with me just because they wanted some advice on whether to self publish or to go with a traditional publisher and and it's a high profile person who has abilities sell lots of books and and everything that a publisher would look for in someone. And so I thought he was just looking for advice and got on the call. And the first thing that he said was, I just saw you know, the purpose of this call is for me to be able to convince you to write a book with me. And so I guess that and that felt really good. It was also an interesting tactic if that wasn't his real goal because it relaxed me instantly, made it much more conversational.

And so if you're trying to get a sense of how would this person be to work with, are we going to jot, like are we going to link up together well, all that other stuff? It was a great way to do it. But it turned out to be okay. But that's because, you know, he'd read stuff I'd written, he'd read my book, he'd add all that stuff. And so the groundwork was already there. So you're making a really good point in that usually with people, the less of a foundation

you have, the harder you have to sell because you're trying desperately to convince someone that they should go with you. And it's almost like that, what do they call it? Relationship selling versus benefit or value selling. You're trying to spark this relationship that allows you then to get the deal. If you've done the work and you have the foundation, then really it's just a matter of, do we fit? So it is a really good point. But if you're in a hurry or you're desperate, then it's a really hard thing to stick with because, you know, the trick is to get a start, and that's the hardest time to convince somebody to take a chance

on you. But what I did with that with E-Lance, which is now upwork again, when I would bid on jobs, I would say to people, hey, I'm new to this, I'll do a good job, promise I'll do a good job, I'm trying to build a base of feedback and client relationships and stuff. So, you don't have to pay me anything up front. And if you don't like it when we're done, then don't pay me in no hard feelings. But if you do like it, please leave me a decent review. And that approach actually worked really well for me because people were willing to take a chance, because they didn't, what were they wasting, but maybe a little bit of time. And it worked really well for me because people were willing to take a chance because they didn't, what were they wasting, but maybe a little bit of time.

And it worked really, really well. And so then even after that, I only was asking for like, I think 25% up front just because I could still say kind of the same thing. Look, I just want enough to get this started. I work fast. If you don't love it, we're good. You know, I want to make sure you're happy. So that idea that you're doing work, I don't know, sometimes people get really upset about the idea that maybe

you have to do a little work for free in order to build a base. Great. Getting that experience is so key. Yeah. Because otherwise, where does it come from? And it's an interesting philosophical discussion because some people that are in the business would say, well, hey, well, you're driving rates down for all the rest of us if you do that. But nobody can work for free for very long. It's not like you could do this for 10 years. So you're just trying to get a foothold,

trying to get some experience. And then the other part of it is when you embark on something new, you have an idea of what it's going to be like and what it is you need to deliver, but you really don't know. And so, that's also a great opportunity, not only to get practice at what you're doing, but also to understand how the landscape works, and how to interact with people, and how to please people, and how to deliver, and all of the things that you need to know that you cannot learn until you do some of them and do them for real.

And sometimes you won't get that opportunity unless you decide to work for free or do it the way that you were suggesting. So any expectations or any expectations are way higher. Oh, that's true. You get a little bit of grace. Right. You do. And they may work with you some and then you can learn from that as well.

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And the best part, they offer a money back guarantee. If your dog's tail isn't wagging within 30 days, they'll refund your first order. No fillers, no nonsense, just nom nom. Go right now for 50% off your no risk 2-week trial at trinom.com.shap. That's trinom.nom.com.shap for 50% off trinom.com.shap. I want to unpack some of this because you mentioned your wife several times. And for me, some of the biggest excuses that I hear, especially for somebody like you,

you were in a place from those 20 years working your way up. They always say to me, I feel too old to start something now. Like you said before, they've put in the investment, they feel like they can't transition. I hear this all the time. It sounded like you had somebody in your corner who was pushing you.

So what were you going through internally? Why weren't you pushing yourself? And then what's the importance of having somebody who might advocate for you and believe in you? Because it sounds like your wife really was that trigger for you. Part of it was comfort, because I was good at what I did. I didn't love it, but I was good at it.

And those two do not always line up. So I was good at it. I had a really not always line up. So I was good at it. I had a really good job. So the idea of saying, okay, I'm gonna go back and start at zero. That's not very much fun either. I balanced that out by just working really hard nights and weekends for a long time until I felt like, okay,

I haven't replaced the income that I make, but I see a path and I see how I can get there and I feel solid about it. And I always tell people that too, if you're not willing to devote nights and weekends to whatever it is you think you want to start, then you don't really want to start it. And so don't even try. So that was part of it. And then I was a little bit afraid. I'm old enough that I'm probably the last vestiges of that generation that still thought that the way to success was to get a job at a big company, work your way up, and that the company

will take care of you and you will take care of them. And so the idea of being an entrepreneur was a little bit scary and it was what other people did not people like me. So that was part of it too. As far as my wife encouraging me and kind of nudging, she knew me well enough to knew that all I needed to do was get started and that I would figure it out. But there's also research that shows that who your significant other is makes a dramatic impact on like your career potential and your earnings and things like that. And it isn't, you don't have to be around geniuses, although my wife is incredibly smart.

But they call it partner conscientiousness. So if your partner is organized and focused and goal oriented and takes care of business and things that even if you're a sloth, which I'm not, but more so than her, although everyone is compared to her, then it rubs off and it is helpful to you. The real support was she said, look, when we finally got to that financial part where I said, I think I see a path. She said, do it for a year. Give it everything you've got. If at the end of that year you go, you know what, either this isn't working for me in terms of what I like to do or, you know, I don't really see a financial path here that makes as much sense as I thought it did, but you can always go back. You can

always go and do so. I may not have gotten, I wouldn't have gotten a job at that same place, but I had skills that were on offer. And then the biggest thing that I also had to get over and now I realize is a total myth is the idea that I was turning, I was closing a door on skills and experiences and abilities that I've wasted and lost. But actually, my biggest strength as a ghost writer as I got to where I was writing more management leadership business. So, well, I was the audience. I knew the audience because I was the audience.

And when I talked to people about what they wanted, they didn't have to teach me about any of that, because I already had lived it and known it. We just had to talk about what was maybe unique to them or different to them or something, some little tweak. So, it was kind of cool because I wasn't a writer who had to learn about some business thing in order to write about it I was really a business person who just had to write about it And so it became a major competitive advantage for me because I had done all that and so Just in a broader sense if you've done one thing for six ten years however long it is and you want to do something different It may seem like it's really really different and none of those experiences will carry over thing for six, 10 years, however long it is, and you want to do something different, it

may seem like it's really, really different and none of those experiences will carry over. It turns out that you bring a ton of stuff with you that you don't realize until you get there. All those experiences and skills, you find a way to weave them over and they actually will distinguish you from the people who just followed that one path because they didn't have any of those things and they don't have a way to get them. So they only have what that path is, you can learn that path, but you brought all that

other stuff with you as well. So it's actually an opportunity for you to separate yourself and distinguish yourself if you choose to take a little bit of a different path. Yeah, we always talk about skill stacking. It is so important to get all these different experiences and to try new things and to figure out what you like, what you don't like, what you're good at, what you're not good at.

So in terms of a side hustle, when you were doing it, I think that was called moon lighting, like side hustle, even a thing. It was actually, I think, really looked down upon. So kudos to you for doing that. I did the same thing. Well, and what's weird about that is you're right, because it was, and it's something that I hate

to reference my book, but I will. I always tell people that you want to be an and, you want to be this and this and this, which skill stacking, I like that term. I'm gonna steal it. But you want to be an and, but for a long time, especially when I was starting, people who had multiple things they did,

that was looked down upon. And it was almost as if if you were doing this and this and this, then you must not be good at any of them. And you were forced to do three things because you couldn't do one of them well. And it turns out that the people that I know that are the most fulfilled and happy and however you want to define success tend to have multiple

things that they do. Because they do weave together and are mutually supporting, there is some symbiosis there, but also it's a little bit more fun to be able to double here and double there and double back and see the world's collide and interchange. And so yeah, it was not something that was particularly positive then. Now I think there's almost a stigma if you don't have a little side to go on. I know, side hustling is like cool.

So I worked at Disney Streaming Services before I was an entrepreneur and I started a marketing and podcast agency while it was working there. And to your point, I did it on night's weekends, mornings, lunchtime, built it up to a point where I had 35 people working for me all over the world and then quit. And that's to me, that's the best path. Because then you know if it's a viable thing, if you can actually make money and you're not putting yourself at risk.

So I think you did it the right way and I want to encourage everybody out there to start something that you are passionate about, something that you love doing, that you feel that you're good at. And to that point, let's talk about motivation a bit because you mentioned when you started writing, you weren't very good at it and it was kind of discouraging and it wasn't until you felt like you were getting good feedback that you actually started to enjoy it and get better and good at it and it was kind of discouraging and it wasn't until you felt like you were getting good feedback That you actually started to enjoy it and get better and better at it. So talk to us about how you can actually create motivation by starting and

Being consistent at something Probably the biggest gap or the biggest hurdle that people have to cross when you want to start something new is you are starting at a place of no experience, no expertise. You're kind of at the zero spot in most cases. And so if you look ahead to where you want to go, that bridge that you have to cross is incredibly daunting because it's like, okay, I'm just this. How am I going to get all the way over there? And so if you're constantly focused on that end place, then even little successes that you make early on,

which you tend to do because you're new, so you learn quickly and you gain some skill fairly fast, they're meaningless to you because compared to what you think you want to be someday, well, it's nothing. And so the biggest thing for me is, you know, because I struggled with the first few things I wrote, but then I thought, and I would think to myself, how am I ever going to be able to do this?

Because it takes me way too long. I'm creating decent things, but gosh, it takes forever. And there's no way for me to make this work. And then I thought, well, okay, but I can't sit down and think, okay, I'm going to be Malcolm Gladwell tomorrow or something like that. But what I can do is just work really hard on whatever is in front of me. So I switched over and just said, my goal every time I do something is, all right, I have this to do.

I need to do it as well as I can. I need to finish it. I need to get good feedback from it, which means I did a good job because whether I thought I did a good job didn't really matter. It's what the client thought. And that's all I can do right now. But that's enough. And so if I stack enough of those experiences up, then the experience kind of comes. And so by keeping a short time horizon in terms of my like inner feedback loop, then if I worked on a project one night and it was a short one and I got it done, that felt really good.

Because I set out to do what I wanted to do, I completed a task, it went well. That was enough to get me to the next one. And so I just fell into this place of all I need is enough motivation to get to the next one. And if I get to the next one and I get to the next one, then suddenly you can look back and go, wow, I'm starting to come a long way because I'm, you know, you pop your head up every once in a while and sort of look at where you are and go, wow, that is really cool. And then you need to put your head right back down again and just focused on next and next and next. And so, and then the other part of it is that I'm not particularly

smart. I have a college degree, but I'm not particularly educated. I don't have anything. There's nothing I'm decidedly average. Let's just say that. So I don't have anything. I don't have anything special going for me, except for the fact that I realize that if I put in enough effort, there are a lot of things I can do. And so I'm very much a effort kind of a person and so

That actually works really well because I don't think you get motivation from like this I'm sitting around one day and suddenly I have the lightning bolt. This is I want to be a you know a famous writer or Some whatever it is you want to be I don't That doesn't work. I don't think that kind of motivation. I don't know anybody that has that. All you really need is to say, I'm interested in writing. Let me get started in some fashion. And through effort, if you work hard at it, you improve because we always get better at things we work hard at.

It is a natural thing. It's just like taxes. It's a law of the universe. And whenever you get a little better, that feels good. And so effort equals a little bit of achievement, which feels good, which creates motivation for you to take a little more effort, which means you'll improve a little more,

which feels good. And so there's this really cool, virtuous cycle of effort, achievement, fulfillment, happiness, motivation that you can spend forever and ever and ever if you focus on doing it that way. If all you care about is this big end result, it's demoralizing, it defeating, and you have to rely on willpower alone, and none of us have enough willpower to do that. But if you just get that cycle started, there it is.

So to me, motivation doesn't come first. Effort comes first. I love that. So let me pause you right there because I want to make sure that my listeners really understand this. So what Jeff is saying is that you don't want to focus on some big goal because you'll keep comparing yourself to that goal. You're going to think about where you are now, how far away that goal is, you're going to feel bad, and you don't want to feel bad if you want to be motivated, you want to feel good, so you want to focus on these small wins. So how can we better focus on these small wins?

Is there a trick that we need to do? Is it something we need to reflect on every day? How do we make sure that we're constantly looking at these small goals and making sure that we're making progress at these small goals and making progress toward our bigger goal. So process really is everything with anything that you want to do. So you do need a big goal, I think.

But your goal, your big goal is just there to help you design the process that you would use in order to get there. So if I, this is a terrible, well, it's not a terrible example, but it's, it's an easy example. Say you want to run a marathon and you've never run before. So running the marathon is your big goal. But as you said, if that's all you focus on is being able to run 26 miles and you can only run one, you're going to quit because it's too far. And you feel bad after that one mile, you're never going to get there. So running a marathon though, you can back it up and say, okay, what are the steps and stages that I'm going to have to go through in order to build up the endurance and stamina and

speed and all that other stuff that will allow me to get there? And there are plenty of people in the world who can lay that program out for you. So you know what to do. So the goal informs the process. Then you just say, okay, I've got a whatever it is, six month plan. What's tomorrow? Tomorrow is, I'm going to go run a mile and a half. Cool. When you run a mile and a half, you can check it off, you get to feel good about yourself because you did what you set out to do that day, which if you think about it at the end of the day, the days you feel best about yourself or when you got done the things that you said you wanted to do, where you

feel bad is when you didn't. So you get to feel good about it, you checked it off, you had a successful day, that will give you enough motivation to tomorrow go, okay, what's tomorrow? Whatever it is, that's all you have to do. You just have to do whatever it is that you have to do today. And if you focus on that, you get to be successful every day.

You get to feel good about yourself every day. And you will stack up enough of those days that every once in a while, you will pop your head up and say, wow, I just did a 10 mile run. Who thought I could do that? But before you get too excited and go, oh, I just did a 10 mile run. Who thought I could do that? But before you get too excited and go, oh, what about the 26? You got to put your head back down

because you're not, you're not there yet. And then you say, cool, I can rent 10 miles. That's awesome. What's tomorrow? Tomorrow may only be a three mile run because that's part of your process of recovery and whatever else it may be. Whatever it is, if you're doing what you set out to do that day, and if that process is designed so that it will basically guarantee that if you put in the effort, you will succeed, you're good to go. So the goal informs the process. And then all you worry about is, am I doing what I need to do each step of the way? You didn't start a side hustle and end up with 35 people working for you by one day just saying,

you know, that's what I want to do. You knew you wanted to create a marketing agency and a podcast. You knew what you wanted to do, but you broke it down into, okay, but what can I do right now? And what am I doing each day to get there? And then all of those winds stacked up on themselves and probably made it a little bit easier for you to keep working that hard because you saw path to where you were going to get. Mm-hmm. And I think something that's key here is that a lot of people think that motivation is external, but really motivation is just a feeling, right? It's an internal feeling.

It's dopamine rushing to your brain where you just feel really happy about what you completed and it makes you want to do more. So let's talk about your new book, Motivation Myths, because it's a really interesting book. I have a lot of things that I want to talk about in it. So let's start with the conventional approach to motivation. What are all these like gurus, OASA in terms of how people should gain motivation and why is your approach different? One of them would be that, like you said, about internal versus

external, there's the whole idea that you need to find people around you that can keep you motivated and you know you need a mentor to keep you motivated and I've never I don't know anyone who's done really hard things that has done so just because they had someone else constantly encouraging and pushing them. I don't feel like that works from the outside of it doesn't mean anything to you and if you can't find it in yourself there's nobody that's going to get you there. So that would be the first one. I think it's great to rely on other people for advice, for tips, for strategies, for techniques. It's also great to rely on other people if you want

them to be accountability buddies. But not in terms of, did I reach my ultimate goal, but in terms of, hey, every Sunday, we're gonna talk, and you're gonna check in and make sure that I did the seven things this week I said I was going to do. So your accountability buddy should be process not ultimate goal, because you can fluff, you can fluff the ultimate goal.

So that's one. The other is the, which I referenced earlier, which is the whole, you the whole lightning bolt theory of motivation where one day you just wake up and it's like, oh my gosh, I wanna be a world, I wanna be a, I wanna be, you know, Serena Williams, and Win Will Muldin and be the best tennis player in the world. That feeling may hit you,

but that feeling isn't going to carry you through all the time and effort and struggle and failure and challenges and all of that other stuff. So and I don't know anyone who's had that lightning bolt every really successful person that I've talked to just had an interest in something said, Hey, I would like to learn how to do that. I would like to get better at that. And that really was their focus. Is, can I improve at this? Eventually they had bigger goals. was their focus is, can I improve it this? Eventually, they had bigger goals, but that idea of just constant improvement, that's what really took them there. And that's what keeps you there, because once you achieve something, if all you cared about was achieving and you

achieve it, well, what's left? There is no fulfillment left. The Metallica guitarist, Kirk Hammett, they've been around for 40-some years, and I asked him one time, I said, you know, there's so many people that reach your level and they've burnt out and they don't enjoy it. And he said, you know, my whole goal all along was, I wanted to be good enough that I could play music with my friends and they would want to play with me. And so he said, seriously, and he said,

and so I'm still in that spot, because these are the people I want to play music with. And I need to be good enough that they will want to play music with me. And so all the other stuff that comes with it, you know, being a rock star and the money and all that, that's a byproduct. And he doesn't downplay that. But that's a byproduct of the fact that this was really what my goal was. And that's an internal goal, not an external goal.

So the idea that you'll get the lightning bolt, that doesn't work at all. I'd love to hear more stories about that because I know that you've talked to a huge athletes like Venus Williams and Lance Armstrong. How did they get their motivation to become the superstar athletes that they are? Venus is a really good example of what we talked about earlier, like skill stacking or like I said being an and Because as they were growing up, there's this idea that she and Serena, you know that their father basically manufactured tennis champions out of them and while he was their coach and and did push and did work with them She says even when they were like 10 years old

They weren't allowed to just be tennis players. So they would be riding to a tournament in a car, listening to tapes about how to buy four closure homes and make money. And she said, we hated that stuff. But it was his way of saying, there's more to life. There's more that you need to be doing. And so Venus, she owns a clothing company.

She owns an architectural design firm, she's got a couple different masters degrees. She does a variety of things and I think it makes her probably better at all of them. And it kept her from burning out in tennis where so many professional athletes do tend to burn out so early. But like for her, she's a good example of the, yeah, when she was little, she dreamed of winning Wimbledon because you know, that's what you do when you're little. But really, she just wanted to get better. And their dad actually kept them out of a lot of junior tournaments and kept them off of that traditional path because he wanted their skills to improve and them to be focusing

on improving certain things, not letting natural talent allow them to win, where then they would think, well, I don't have to work that hard, because I can already win. So, you know, why do I have to do that, Dad? I'm winning all the time. So, he was very much focused on, but you need to be better at this skill,

or you need to be better at that skill, and by layering them all together, you know, suddenly they kind of emerge and they seem to come out of nowhere, but it's because they had developed skills. So I don't know if that that answered your question. No, yeah, I love that. I just don't know anybody that that said, you know, the woke up one day and said, I want to be X. And that's all I need to carry me all the way through. Most

of them have failed more times than most of us, and I think that's part of it, because that means they took more shots and they tried more things. There's the other idea that really successful people were born that way, and I don't think that's true at all. In fact, most of them, like I said, have failed more times than the average person

because they were willing to try. And so what distinguishes them is the idea of what's like you. You're working in Disney, great job, great company, but you had other things you wanted to try and you were willing to try it. And so had it not gone well, you still would have learned a ton, you still would have gained a lot of skills

that would have taken you somewhere else. The fact that it did work, well that's cool too, but it's because you were willing to try and expand beyond whatever just the one thing was that you were doing. But it was, you didn't have the dream to take over the world. You just said, you know what? I think I could do this. Let's see where this takes me and what I learned along the way. And probably the last one I will say is that for a lot of successful people, their goals tend to evolve and expand as they go along. Because when you're first

starting out, all you can do is set a goal based on what you've seen other people do. Because you're not there. So you set that. But then as you go along, you realize it, okay, but I really like this part of whatever this is I'm pursuing. I don't really like that part as well. So I'll shape my goal a little bit, then I'll evolve my goal. And then at some point, you reach a place where maybe the goal you set, oddly enough, wasn't big enough because you didn't realize that you had the capability and the potential to go beyond that and to figure things out that would allow you to do that. So I guess the last thing that I would say is that whenever you pick a goal, you don't have to be a slave to it. It doesn't have to be immutable. It can be something

that evolves in shapes and changes. Where you run into trouble is if your goal is, I don't know, I'm holding my hand in front of my face in case people can't see. is if your goal is, I don't know, I'm holding my hand in front of my face in case people can't see, but if your goal is up at your forehead and because you get lazy and it seems like it's too hard and you let it drift down to below your chin, that's a different type of shifting goal that isn't necessarily a positive one, but if it expands and unfolds as you go and you learn about yourself and what you like to do and what you're capable of? Well, that's how it should be. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. Hear that sound, young and profitors? You should know that sound by now,

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I'm going to give an example because my experience with my side hustle turning into my business masterclass.com slash profiting. I love that. I'm gonna give an example because my experience with my side hustle turning into my business is exactly like this. So at first I was like, well, three years ago, I was like, all right, I'm gonna start a podcast. I'm gonna start a podcast. I had radio experience.

I know how to do this. I'll just figure it out. Then two years later, and like, well, my podcast is picking up steam. Everybody's asking me, you know, who does my videos? I'll start making, you know, videos for other people. I've got a team of volunteers. We'll start making videos, right? Then that turned into, all right, I'm going to manage LinkedIn profiles. And that turned into, I landed a huge client and I got to hire all these people. Then it turned into, all right, we'll do YouTube, we'll do podcasting, we'll do this,

that. Now we're a full service agency, 70 people all over the world. It's crazy how a little idea, I want to start making videos for people turned into a full service marketing and podcast agency. And I was just layered and I'm still growing it. I started a podcast network every month is a new idea that we just keep adding on to this original small, small idea. I have a podcast. And the cool part about that is that the ideas come from a foundation and from mastery, not from just dreaming it up and saying,

you know what, a podcast network would be really awesome. You didn't figure that out until you realized it, wait a minute, I do know a lot about building and growing a podcast that I can probably help other people with, you know, like all those other things. So your ideas came not from just dreaming them up, but from effort and mastery and skill expansion, and then that allowed you to look around and say, okay, what can I do with what I have? And that's a lot of people get that backwards. They think, what do I want to have? Now, how do I figure out how to do that? Versus, well, what do I want to have? Now, I don't figure out how to do that.

Versus, well, I know I want to do more than what I'm doing. And so here's an area of interest. So let me get really good at this. And then let me see where that takes me. And it will always take you to places that you could not have imagined, not because it's some fluffy tree hook. I don't know.

That sounded very mystical. It'll take you to places you didn't imagine because you had no way of imagining them because you didn't have the skills and the foundation to allow you to see that those things were possible because you didn't know, I hate this phrase, but you didn't know what you didn't know. And you can't learn what you don't know until you do things and learn something. I love that. Let's talk about the time that it takes to start something new because I think this is a really important point. it takes to start something new because I think this

is a really important point. You want to start something new, but you have all these commitments you're distracted. And at the end of the day, you need to build in time to try something new to learn something new. So what are your top tips in terms of reducing distractions in terms of making time to fulfill the process that you're supposed to do every single day for your new goal. Probably my biggest one is to redefine how you think of me time, where people say, oh, I need some me time, whatever that is. So if me time is, wow, this is gonna sound really harsh,

so forgive me, but if me time is, and there's nothing wrong with this, watching Netflix or hanging out and chilling or whatever that is, if that's the me time is, and there's nothing wrong with this, watching Netflix or hanging out and chilling or whatever that is, if that's the me time that you have, that's cool, but that's not necessarily productive time in building some other skill. You don't have to use it differently, but if you're saying, I have other things I want to do,

I have a side hustle I want to start, whatever that might be, then what you need to say to yourself is, my me time is actually that, that's me time. Working on my side hustle is me time. And if you think about it in terms of, I'm going to learn, I'm going to grow, I'm going to develop, I'm going to expand, I'm going to do something positive in my life with that. Well, that's probably the best definition of me time that you could actually have. Is it, wow, this has the ability to change my life in a positive way. And so that's probably my big one is just to redefine what me time means to you.

So when I was working full time and trying to build some writing career, you know, my me time was working on that. And so when I, when it started to pay off for me, it was like, okay, well, I'm missing some other things, but I'm not really missing the family time because I protected that. You know, and I'm not missing some exercise time and some health time because I protected that.

What I'm really missing is stuff that, I don't know, it's a snack, it's not a good meal. So is that a bad thing? You know, I was, I was missing junk food if want to think of it in terms of that, you know, and really I It was much more fulfilling to be things that to do things that made me feel better about myself and again if you're not willing to sacrifice your Chilling hanging out, veging, lounging whatever it is time in order to do something else Well, then whatever that something else is, doesn't mean enough to you.

And so that's cool. Find something else. If I could just add to this, just to help people understand that this can be temporary. So when I was building my podcast, building my side also for almost three and a half years, I did not turn on the TV. To your point, the thing that I enjoyed was working

on my podcast and working on my business. I literally didn't turn on the TV. To your point, the thing that I enjoyed was working on my podcast and working on my business. I literally didn't turn on the TV. Now that I was able to quit my regular marketing job, I have people working for me, things are great. I watched a season of Ted Lasso. It can be temporary, you know what I mean? And it doesn't have to last forever, but you need to sacrifice that veging out to your point for a period of time. it doesn't have to last forever, but you need to sacrifice that veging out to your point

for a period of time. And it doesn't have to be forever, but you do need to put in the time in order for something to actually happen. And that raises a really good point, because as you get better at whatever else that you're doing, then you're more efficient, you're more effective, it's more automated, it's more effortless, it's all of those things. And you spend less time per output measurement than you did in the beginning and it does and then you can either apply that

to improving that even more or it frees you up some time for some of those other things as well. So it's a really good point that the first few months it is going to feel like that's all you do in your non-day job time, but it gets better. Because you get better. And so knowing that going in is really important because there are dark days at first where you think, wow, this is really hard. Not a lot of if I'm ever going to get there and look at all these things I'm missing, but it does get better if you hang in there. One of my favorites for that is I call it the two week rule.

If you're gonna start anything that's hard, if you think that's what you want to do, then you really need to commit to doing it for two weeks. Whatever your process is, just say, you know what, no matter what, I'm going to do this for two weeks. And the reason is simple, the first couple days are terrible,

because you're not good at it. You don't know what you're not good at it. You don't know what you're doing. It feels like a struggle. It's really hard. And if you measure yourself after two days, you're going to quit because it's like, oh, can't do it. But if you give yourself two weeks, by the end of that time, you will have improved.

You will have gotten better. You will know more about what you're doing. You'll have gotten a little bit of fulfillment and satisfaction. And you'll at least be able to say, you know what? Yeah, I can start to see. I can see how this is starting to work. I can see where I'm improving. Then you can make an informed decision about,

but is this really something I want to do? If you decide that on day two, when it's really dark, everything you try, you will decide you don't want to do because it's too dark. So the try, you will decide you don't wanna do, because it's too dark. So the two week rule is a big thing. As far as time management stuff, the other thing that I would say, because it can sound like what I'm saying

is that you need to be 24, seven working, and I don't think that's healthy or long term productive. You probably have to work more than you are now, just by default, or else you'll lose your full-time job. And then what will you do? Because you still have to kick-assage your full-time job while you're doing it. But the one that I think would be really important is that you have to and this sounds too robotic, but it's not. You have to actively schedule your free time. You have to say to yourself, okay, I know I have a full-time job,

and I know I'm going to spend a few hours tonight working on, if it's you, working on your podcast in your early days. But I've got other time in there. So what am I going to do with that? That is the best use of that time, whether it's family time or friend time or whatever it may be, but you have to gelously protect that just as much as you're protecting the time that you're spending on the work stuff. So if you don't have a plan for that, then you're probably going to fritter it away. It's not going to feel very fulfilling. And then after a little while, you're going to look around and say, wow, I'm not spending time with my family, I'm not seeing my friends, I'm not, whatever it is, it's important to you.

Because when you get to those times you won't be ready. You'll just be like, ah, what are we going to do? Do you all have anything you want to do? But if you've actively protected it and scheduled it in your mind, then when you get there it's like, oh, cool, this is my ex time, I'm going to do these things. It'll feel good. People will feel better about you if it's people things because it was active and fulfilling and meaningful and you were focused. So that's a big one too is schedule your work time and be really good at that. But go ahead and plan for your non-worktime in a good way. Not in a, you know, I have to play, you know, you say that and people think, wait a minute, I got to plan my free time. That sucks. I don't want to have to do that. Well,

but, but it's okay if you think, okay, I want to go out to dinner and I with two friends. We're going to do that on Tuesday night. That's going to be awesome. Well, that's a great plan. Or if it's, I want to take the kids to do some of it's out or we're just going to go outside and whatever it is, it's a good plan. It's not a restrictive plan. It's a good plan because you're being intentional about your life. And the best way to feel good about your life is to be intentional about it and to do the things that make you happiest or more fulfilled or whatever it is that you are trying to achieve. I love that. So there's a couple of things in terms of time management that you mentioned in your

book that were really interesting. So, one of them was to fire one of your friends. And you also say that you should cut an expense and drop a personal commitment. So, I'd love to talk about some of those. So, we'll do the fire of the friend last. So, the cut of personal commitment, as I started to get a little bit more of a profile and some kind of public something, whatever you wanna call it, people would ask me to do lots of stuff.

You know, it would be right for this or do a speaking engagement here or whatever it is, and not always where they paid, but I don't know, They sort of serve my ego. I guess is the best way to put that as I look back. It's like, oh yeah, yeah, I'll do that. I'm cool. And then I got to a point where I was,

well, wait a minute, this does nothing for me. The people that I'm doing it for don't really appreciate it. I don't really enjoy it. And so I realized that there were things that I was doing that weren't really advancing me either professionally or personally. And so I thought, I need to stop doing that. Why am I doing that? Just because it serves my ego. Anything you do strictly for ego is a waste of time. And so all of us have some sort of commitments that we have that we do just because we think it makes us look good to

other people. I don't, whatever it is. And so if you need more time, those are the first things that you cut because your ego doesn't matter. Your output and the impact you make is what matters. Not the reflection of yourself that you think you see in other people's eyes because they don't really care. So that would be that one.

Cut an expense. The tricky part when you start a business is that you never have enough money, even if you have a full time job. And it's really easy for expense creep to occur. And suddenly you look around and you've got subscriptions of this and you've got five apps, you have all these things

that you think are designed to make you more efficient and effective, but all they do is cost money and they cause you to change what is optimal for you in order to interact well with whatever that function is. So I don't know. A lot of people try personal finance apps. And so you end up, you know, you have to put out your data and you have to log, you have to do all this stuff. And I know a lot of people that have quit using them because they realized that they were

running their life based on how the app wanted it to be run, not on what was best for them. When I worked in manufacturing, we had a lot of software programs that were designed to collect data and monitor a lot of stuff. And they made us less efficient because we weren't doing job changeovers in the best way to be fastest and most accurate. We were doing it, so it served the software. So my boss finally came in and said, all right, this is out. What is the point of this?

Look around at expenses that you have that actually won the cost you money that you don't need to spend, but two that are causing you to live actually won that cost you money that you don't need to spend. But two, that are causing you to live your life or work professionally in some way that is not optimal for you. Because if a tool doesn't make you better than what you are, then it is that a tool is an impediment. And then finally, so fire a friend.

There's the old quote that you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. That's true. I would take it farther though. And if you think about leading a really busy life, and we talk about time management, everybody talks about time management, but what rarely gets discussed is energy management. And what really matters to you is your ability to manage your energy and have enough energy that you can go from one thing to the next to the next Feeling excited about it having some enthusiasm having the energy to do it well And there are people in your life who actually negatively impact your energy some of them might be customers oftentimes their friends or family and so if You have everybody has at least one person

who you interact with them because you either always have or are supposed to or something, but when you're done, it's like, oh, you know, that actually drained me. And so if the people around you are not actually making you, they're not helping you generate energy. I know this sounds very mystical, but I think hopefully people can get it. If they're not helping you generate energy in a positive way and they're actually sucking the energy from you, then maybe they shouldn't be around you quite as much or you have to figure out a way to interact with them that that doesn't happen. Because what what you really are limited by is not necessarily time because time is fixed. We all have 24 hours, but the energy that you have to apply within the time that you're spending doing something, that is variable and depends on how you intentionally ensure that you have some

energy to go there. And so, and that's actually a good, a good analysis for whether something that you're doing on a side hustle is a positive thing for you, not just money wise, but fulfillment wise. If it doesn't make you excited, like you were excited to work on your podcast or to work on help people with LinkedIn profiles or all those other things, that was actually fun. That gave you energy and you could work longer at it Maybe then your full-time job sometimes because they were fun And so if what you're doing is a side hustle generates energy for you It's a really good sign that you're on the right path if it's a slog and a struggle and it almost feels like it drains you to do it

Then that's probably not something that you should pursue. And you can, it may have felt like a passion, but a passion generates energy, truly. And if it's not generating energy, then it's not really a passion, and it's probably something you should discard and do something else. I think that's a great point. So my last question before we wrap this up, is by the way, I've been a great conversation, is all about self-talk, because I think that this is something that we don't speak about enough,

the fact that the way that we talk to ourselves while we're trying to achieve our goals is really important. So what is the right way and the wrong way to talk to ourselves when we're trying to stay on track? So I'm not a huge self-talk person in terms of how people usually think of it, like the, you know, look in the mirror and tell yourself you're awesome

or other things like that. I think you're awesome when you have, how do I say this? Confidence to me comes from success. You cannot just all of a sudden decide to be confident, but when you've had successes, even if they're not in the same field, that it's, you feel confident because if nothing else, you can say to yourself, and here's where I'll get to the self-talk. I've done that before. That was really hard. It was really

difficult. I had to work really hard at it, but I did it. And so you know what? I can do this too. It's different, but I can do it too. So the best way to me and the only self talk I really use is I will do that. In the course of writing my book, part of what I did from it was a marketing hook if nothing else, but I decided I was going to do 100,000 pushups that year. And so it was a process where it was, you know, 274 a day, click them off at the end of the year, I've done 100,000 pushups. Meaningless goal, but it does prove the power of numbers, where if you sit there and you just do things enough, you can get to a really cool place. So I did that. And what was funny about it is it was meaningless but for a few years afterwards whenever I started out on something else that was really hard whether it was physical

or work or whatever else and I would think oh my gosh it's going to be terrible. It would just hit me I would think yeah but I did 100 push up, 100,000 push ups so I can probably do this too. It's just time and effort and so myself my self-talk is when something seems really difficult, it's just time and effort. It's if I put enough effort and I do it over a period of time, I will achieve things that I'm trying to achieve. It's time and effort. And so the self-talk for me is if you do one thing that took a lot of time and a lot of effort and you achieve it, put it in your pocket, reach out and pull it out whenever you've got something really hard to do and say, well, I did that. I can do this too because I know how to work hard and stay

the course and succeed. I know how to do it. I know it's hard. I know there are down times, know there's up times. It's all part of the process. I did that. I can do this too. And so that to me is the best self-talk, but you've got to get yourself through one of those hard things first. And that should be part of your goal is to say, I want to achieve this because I want to achieve it. But also this will help build a foundation, which takes us all the way back to where we started, for the fact that I know I can now do these things. And so you're almost can sell yourself. You know, we talked about using a foundation of proficiency in order to be able to sell people, well, you can sell yourself because you can say, with all honesty, I did that.

I can do this too. And then you will stack those things up. And before long, you will look at everything not as, can I do this, but do I want to do this? Because if I do, I know that through time and effort, I can do that. And that's a really cool place to be in your life when you can say, when you don't have to say, can I, but do I want to? Because I know if I try, I can. Oh, I love that. So the last question that I ask, oh, my guess is, what is your secret to profiting in life? I don't know if I'm smart enough to have a secret, but I would say that if we use the word profit to mean feel good about yourself and feel successful and however you choose to define success, then try to make as many of your goals have as many different layers to

them as as possible. So if it's a financial goal, then hopefully it also has maybe a family goal or a personal achievement goal or a lifestyle goal or something else. The more goals can operate on multiple levels, the more likely you are to work hard at them. A good example of that is as I've reached a point where I've had some level of success, I get to blend things that I want to write about. I get to write about things that I'm personally interested in, for instance, I like motor racing.

So I write a lot about that, and I've gotten to meet a lot of drivers, and a lot of team owners, and a lot of lots of people in the sport. And so I enjoy it personally, because it's an area of interest, but it also benefits me professionally because that's how I get paid. And so I've done the same thing with athletes and entertainers and musicians and people I wanted to meet. I get to talk to really cool people because I've kind of reached that place.

And so the fact that I write about it is kind of a fun byproduct. But I enjoy the conversations and I always learn something and it's really neat to do. And so when a goal can fulfill you or satisfy you or whatever it is on a variety of levels, then that's great. And so if you're, I don't know, 25 years old and you're, you know, a junior supervisor somewhere and you say, well, that sounds really good for you.

But, you know, how am I supposed to do that? Well, if one of the things that you enjoy is helping other people, if you're a supervisor, you can do that all day long because you can develop people, you can put them in positions to succeed, you can introduce them to other folks, you can help the network. There's a lot of ways in doing your job that you can also enjoy that personal gratification

that comes from the fact that you helped people. And it'll make you a better supervisor because if you do those things for your people, your team will succeed at a better level than other folks. And so, all you have to do with whatever you're doing is kind of take a step back and say, okay, how can I make this work for me, not just as it's supposed to work for whatever this is,

but in other ways that make me feel good about myself. And if you can do those things, then everything you do brings you more quote unquote profit because you're dipping into multiple, here's another cheesy analogy, but you're dipping into multiple revenue streams that all come back to you. So that would probably be my biggest one is to just not say, I want to do X. Here's what I'll get out of X. It should be I want to do X. What are all the things that I can get about that out of that that are meaningful to me and that are fulfilling and gratifying to me? And it's you can pretty much find that in anything you have to do if you're willing to look hard. I think that's brilliant advice and I think merging all those passions is so

key to staying motivated, staying happy with what you're doing and it switches things up, keeps you kind of entertained as you're going along this path and this career. So Jeff, where can our listeners learn more about you and everything that you do? Well, if after all this, they want to hear even more from me. I write for Inc. I'm a contributor editor there, and so it's Inc. Magazine. And also, I don't do much social media. I am all linked in, and I do respond to people. Sometimes it takes me a while, but I do. If you write or want to connect, I will, and it, I will eventually get to it, I promise. So that would probably

be the biggest one. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for this conversation and for all your wisdom. Well, thanks. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for listening to my conversation with Jeff. We talk a lot about motivation, work ethic, and time management on Young and Profiting podcast. so having an expert on like Jeff was super valuable. Jeff shared his journey and we found a lot to connect on with the beginning of our careers. Like me, he once worked a full-time job in corporate, but he knew his passions were elsewhere. Even though he was great at his job, he wanted to be a writer but he didn't know how to break into the scene. Ultimately, it was his wife that found him his first job.

And that's a great point that Jeff talked about. Finding success often takes having the correct support system around you, whether that's in your partner or your friends. Sometimes it can take a push from someone else to bring out the best in us. I loved when Jeff talked about how we set goals and measure our success. Our perspective dictates so much of how we feel. So Jeff recommends finding ways to break your goals

into smaller, more manageable tasks, shifting our perspective to appreciate smaller wins instead of just large accomplishments. When you achieve a small goal, make it a point to celebrate it, especially if it's something you wouldn't celebrate typically, because those small wins lead to motivation. The conventional view of motivation is if you fire someone up enough,

they're gonna go out and achieve whatever their target is. Traditionally, they say achieving success is all about generating the right mindset and that motivation will trigger you to succeed basically. But Jeff's book and perspective on the motivation myth overturns this idea that motivation leads to success. Instead, it tells us that small successes lead to constant motivation. Jeff believes that motivation is a result. It's not the spark or trigger that gets you started on your next project. Real motivation comes after you start. Motivation is the pride you take in the work you have already done,

which fuels you to do even more. Motivation stems from success and fuels more success. So the only thing you need to do to succeed is just have one small victory to get a head start. Then you just follow the loop. Jeff calls this the motivation cycle or the motivation feedback loop. The cycle goes something like this. A small success leads to some motivation, which leads to another success and even more motivation, which leads to another success and even more motivation. You get the idea. That's why motivation isn't something you have. Motivation is something you get from yourself automatically,

from feeling good about achieving small successes. Success is therefore a process. Success is repeatable, it's predictable, and it has less to do with hoping and praying and more to do with diligently doing the right things, the right way over and over and over again. When you constantly do the right things, success is predictable. And speaking of doing the right things, you need to make time for that.

When I was starting YAP, I had to make so many sacrifices in my personal life, whether that was missing my friend's birthdays or not watching any TV at all, or cutting back on little luxuries so I could invest in my business. But I press revered and have accomplished so much because of that, so I'm glad that Jeff touched on ways to make more room in our lives for the goals we're looking to achieve. His first step is to cut out activities or commitments that only serve our ego. For just this meant turning down speaking opportunities that didn't pay well or that he didn't have any emotional connection to. In the past, he would say yes because it would stroke his ego. But by saying no, he freed up time to dedicate to writing. For me, this meant turning down, being interviewed

on other podcasts over the last year. For a while, I would say yes to every single podcaster who asked me on their show. I just wanted to support everyone, so I gave out my time like it was candy. But I realized that this was not sustainable, and I stopped having any free time because I was going on so many shows, so I started putting boundaries around it, and only went on select shows that had a big audience that were really worth my time. Learning to say no will not only help you save time in life, but also can help you become more introspective and humble.

The second step is to cut out unnecessary expenses. This can be streaming services, financial apps, or other subscriptions that may be distracting instead of actually helping you be productive. Cutting out some of those things will save you money and also help you to stay focused. His last piece of advice on time management was to fire a friend. So no, we're not saying to just remove people in your life at random, but instead look at the people you've surrounded yourself with. Is there anyone that you find yourself feeling exhausted after spending time with

or that drains your energy? Is there someone that you find doesn't support you in the way that you support them? Well, then it may be time to let them go and to quote, unquote, fire them to protect your mental health, your energy, and your passions. I really enjoyed this conversation with Jeff and I had a lot of takeaways I'm going to take action on right away. And I hope that you take action too by remembering to enjoy the process and to take time to celebrate those small wins, especially now that you know the secret to find and sustain your motivation.

You guys can find me on social media, on Instagram, at YAHP with Hala or LinkedIn, just search for my name, it's Hala Taha. If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to drop us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform. Big thanks to the YAHP team as always. This is Hala signing off. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week we share ideas and practical solutions on the happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.

My co-host and happiness guinea pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money. Suggestions such as follow the one-minute rule. Choose a one-word theme for the year or design your summer. We also feature segments like Know Yourself better where we discuss questions like,

are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever or simplicity lever? And every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick, easy shortcut to more happiness. Listen and follow the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin. Ugh, another pointless video call where nothing gets done. I think you're on mute, David. Uh, sorry. What did I miss? I teach us to prove Miro for the whole company. Miro? That's the...

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