Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Jonah Berger: Magic Words, What to Say to Get Your Way | E218

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

At around one year old, Jonah Berger’s son started saying the word “peas.” What he really meant to say was “please,” but that didn’t matter. It was the first time his son realized that words can have magical effects. Magic words are all around us, whether we are trying to persuade a client, motivate a team, or even just talk to our peers. In this episode, Jonah is back on YAP to talk about his newest book, Magic Words. He will take a deep dive into how to persuade, communicate, and connect. He will cover the different types of words that can increase our impact in every area of our lives!  Jonah Berger is a world-renowned expert on natural language processing, change, word of mouth, influence, consumer behavior, and why things catch on. Dr. Berger is a Wharton School professor and internationally bestselling author of Magic Words, Contagious, Invisible Influence, and The Catalyst. He has published over 80 articles in top‐tier academic journals, teaches one of the world’s most popular online courses, and popular outlets like The New York Times and Harvard Business Review often cover his work.  In this episode, Hala and Jonah will discuss:  - Why words are magic  - How the word “because” changes behavior - Changing nouns to verbs - What happens when we use “I don’t” versus “I can’t” - How to foster a “could” mindset - Words that will help us sell our ideas  - The language of confidence - Asking for the right advice - Understanding the power of language - And other topics… Jonah Berger is a Wharton School professor and internationally bestselling author of Magic Words, Contagious, Invisible Influence, and The Catalyst. Berger has been recognized with a number of awards for both scholarship and teaching, including various early career awards. He was named one of the top 30 leaders in business by the American Management Association and one of the most creative people in business by Fast Company magazine.  Dr. Berger is a world-renowned expert on natural language processing, change, word of mouth, influence, consumer behavior, and why things catch on. He has published over 80 articles in top‐tier academic journals, teaches one of the world’s most popular online courses, and popular outlets like The New York Times and Harvard Business Review often cover his work. Berger has keynoted hundreds of major conferences and events like SXSW and Cannes Lions, advises various early-stage companies, and consults for organizations like Apple, Google, Nike, Amazon, GE, Moderna, and The Gates Foundation. Resources Mentioned: Jonah’s Website: https://jonahberger.com/ Jonah’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/j1berger/ Jonah’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/j1berger Jonah’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/j1berger/ Jonah’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=220591 Jonah’s book Magic Words: What to Say to Get Your Way: https://jonahberger.com/magic-words/ LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass, Have Job Security For Life: Use code ‘masterclass’ for 25% off at yapmedia.io/course. Sponsored By:  Shopify - Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com/profiting LMNT - Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any order only when you order through DrinkLMNT.com/YAP More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review - ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of YAP is sponsored in part by Shopify. Shopify simplifies selling online and in-person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com-profiting. Whether you like Trump or you hate Trump, you can't deny that he's done an amazing job of selling his ideas. Even if he don't like his ideas, he got a whole bunch of people to support those ideas. Why? You'll notice he does the same thing that great sales people do.

He does the same thing that great entrepreneurs do. He does the same thing that great entrepreneurs do, he does the same thing that gurus do, which is that he speaks with a great deal of certainty. We all hedge all the time. Might could possibly seem all of these are words that indicate some level of uncertainty, and while it's good to use these words sometimes, they undermine our impact. Now for our goals for other people to listen to us these words sometimes, they undermine our impact. If our goal is for other people to listen to us, we gotta stop hedging so much. We hedge without even thinking about it. Those hedges are hurting our ability to persuade.

What is up, young and profitors? You're listening to YAP, Young and Profiting Podcast, where we interview the brightest minds in the world and unpack their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your daily life. I'm your host, Hallitaha. Thanks for tuning in and get ready to listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to Young & Profiting Podcast, Jonah. Thanks so much for having me back.

I am excited. Yap, bam. Jonah Berger is a Wharton School Professor. He's also the best-selling author of Contangious, Invisible Influence, The Catalyst, and his most recent release is called Magic Words. He's a world-renowned expert on natural language processing, change, word of mouth, influence, consumer behavior, and why things catch on. He's published articles in top-tier academic journals.

He's key-noted hundreds of major conferences, and he's also consulted for household name brands like Apple, Google, and Nike. We had Jonah on the show in episode number 158, change anyone's mind. We discussed how to change anyone's behavior and we learned about Jonah's come-up story. It was one of my favorite conversations of last year's, so we should go back and check it out.

In this episode, we're gonna break down Jonah's newest book, Magic Words. We're gonna dive deep into how to persuade, communicate, and connect. And we'll cover the different types of words that can increase your impact in every area of life. So, Jonah, let's dive straight into it. Whether we're trying to persuade a client,

motivate a team, or even just talk to our peers, words are powerful. They're how leaders lead, cells, people, cell, parents, parent, and in your latest book, Magic Words, you say, by some estimates, we use around 16,000 words a day. So tell us why our words so magical. In anything we want to do, we use language. If we're a salesperson, we're trying to turn a prospect into a client.

If we're a leader and we're trying to motivate or get a team to do something, in our personal lives, if we're going on a date, if we're talking to a spouse or partner or child, we use language to convey whatever we want to communicate. We spend a lot of time thinking about the big stuff we want to talk about, the topics or ideas. If I'm getting up in front of a company, for example, I might say, this is what I want to get across, or if I'm on a date, I might want to make myself seem a certain way.

But while we seem and think a lot about the topics we want to communicate, we think a lot less about the individual words We use to communicate them and that's actually a mistake because subtle shifts in the language We use can have a huge impact as I talk about in the book research shows that adding just a certain particular word To request can make people 50% more likely to say yes Research I and my own colleagues have done that found that rather than saying you like something, saying you recommend it, makes people around a third more likely to take your suggestion. And a variety of other research shows that the language you use in email predicts whether

we're going to get promoted or fired. The language you use when applying for a loan predicts whether we're going to default on that loan or pay the money back. And the language other people use can give us insight into whether they're telling the truth or what type of person they are. And so across every domain of our lives, language is a powerful tool. We can use both to influence others, impact others, as well as make ourselves better, better off.

And so if we understand the power of magic words, we can use them more effectively. Yeah, I'm super excited for this topic because I feel like it's relatable for everyone, like everybody can use this skill, and there's so much to learn. Everybody uses words. Yeah, everybody uses words. And then also just the fact that it's just these little tweaks and some of them are obvious and some of them are really not obvious. And so I'm so excited to get through some of these gems and really dig deeper.

But let's start with how you were inspired to write this book. So I was reading your book, right? And you mentioned your son, Jasper's first magical words was peas. And that really sparked your interest in terms of the power of words. Tell us about this story. And if that inspired to write that your book

or what inspired you? Yeah, so I've been working in this space for the last 10 years or so, and we now are able to study language in ways we couldn't before, right? So we've always used language, languages and new, but now everything is transcribed and recorded. We share opinions online on social media. We talk like we're talking now and these conversations can be transcribed.

Whatever language we use is now available to researchers to analyze, and there are all sorts of computational tools, machine learning, and otherwise, that allow us to analyze these things. And so the past 10 or 15 years, I and my academic work have been studying language. We've looked at hundreds of conversations, thousands of sales pitches, and startup pitches,

and tens of thousands of piece of content to understand what makes language more effective. But I really saw it at a personal level with my son. So as I was mentioning a few years ago, our first child, Jasper, was born. And around a year so old, he started saying the word peas. And what he really meant was the word please, but he didn't have his L's yet,

so it came out sounding like peas. And the fact he was using peas by itself is not that surprising. By his age, kids often have a number of different words that they use, but what was super neat to me is the way he would use this word. So he had a variety of things he might want to be yo for yogurt, brow bear, for brown bear, up for when he wanted to be picked up. And he would use one of these words to alert you that he wanted that thing. So if he wanted yogurt, he might say yo,

or if he wanted brownberry, he might say brow bear. But what he had noticed is if you didn't jump up right away to do what he wanted, he would add the word peas at the end. So he would look, he would sort of dead in the eye and say yo, peas and shake his head, yes. And what was so neat to me about this, he learned more words, right? So even last week he was going,

Dad, you asked me to do this, but you weren't specific enough. I was like, where did you learn the word specific? You're five, almost six years old. How do you know that word? And so he obviously now, at this point, knows a lot more language. But I loved peas because it was really the first time

he realized that language had power. That yeah, if he didn't get what he wanted, he could use this word, this particular magic word, peas, and he'd be more likely to get it. And so that's just one example, but these magic words are around us in all aspects of our lives. And so it was really a great example to me of,

wow, if we pay attention to these words, if we use them a little bit differently, we can increase our own impact. Yeah, and I love what you were saying before you were sharing this story, you were mentioning that, you guys have studied so many conversations, so many things online content pieces. Can you talk to us about how technology has enabled us to really analyze language now it is? Yeah, so let me give you an example. So we did an analysis recently looking at tens of thousands of pieces of online content. So imagine news articles, imagine blog posts,

whatever it is, And we don't just have what was written. We have how far down that content consumers readers actually read. And this is amazing. We've always read newspapers and magazines, but there's no data looking at how far down people read. But as content creators, we all want to know first, how do we get attention? Second of all, how do we hold it? And if we're going to post something on social media, how do we get people to pay attention to it? If we're gonna send out emails, how do we get people to open them?

But then second, once they've taken a look at our social post or opened our email, are they actually gonna read it or not? For most of us, we don't just want them to open the email and just click on our social post. We want them to actually pay attention to the content for that content to have impact. And so we got access to over a million redevents

of these tens of thousands of pieces of content and how far down people read. And we used natural language processing to look at styles of language that shaped that outcome. And so I talked some of this in the emotions chapter in the certainty chapter, but they're now all these tools, what are called natural language processing tools, are automated textual analysis that allows us to parse language data for insight, rather than having to read each of those articles

which would take me a lot of time, the computer can essentially sift through that mass of data and look for statistical patterns, not only using dictionaries or topic modeling, but also word embeddings and other techniques, some using machine learning, some not, to leverage that data and look for insight. And so it's a powerful way to allow us to uncover things that have always been there,

but we've never been able to see it. That's so exciting. So you have a new book called Magic Words, and you uncover six different types of words that can make us more impactful, more persuasive. We're obviously not going to get through them all. We just have an hour together. But I thought a good warm-up question would be to talk about the word because. So for my understanding, there was a study from the 1970s using a copy machine in the library at the City University of New

York and the scientists who were conducting this study, they were trying to figure out what drives persuasion and actions. And they found out that using the word because can really influence behavior. So I thought this could be a good warm-up question so people can start to understand the power of subtle changes in your words. Yeah. And so because it's just one simple word, but this speaks to a broader question, which is often we're hoping that someone else will do something that we'd like them to do. As an entrepreneur or a salesperson, salesperson, we're trying to convince someone to buy something, or use something.

As a startup founder, we might be trying to convince people to fund us, or work for us. As a boss, we're trying to motivate employees. As a colleague, we're trying to get support for our initiative. As a, and our personal lives, we're trying to convince people all the time. How can we be better at it? And so there was a study that was done,

as Nicely mentioned, in the sort of 70s where they went up to people at a copy machine. And I know we know and use this copy machines anymore, but they wanted someone at a copy machine and they basically interrupted them and asked to make copies. And not surprisingly, most people said no. If you're in the middle of doing something, someone walks up and you say,

hey, can I use the copy machine? Most people would say no. And so they wondered, well, could we use language to make people more likely to say, yes. And so for some set of people, they just went up and said, hey, can I interrupt you and make copies? For another set of people, they came in and said, hey, can I interrupt you and make copies because?

And then they gave a reason. And what they found is the people used the word because other people were 50% more likely to say, yes. To agree to let them interrupt what they were doing and have someone else do something. And you could say, well, hold on, that's not just about the word because there's more there. There's the because.

And then there's the reason I'm actually working on a piece right now for the Wall Street Journal where the editor came back and said, well, it's not the word because it's the reason, right? But here's what's interesting. For a third set of people, they used because and they used a terrible reason. So I said, hey, I'd like to interrupt you making copies because I'd like to make some copies.

The thing after the because was empty. I want to interrupt you because I, of course you need to make copies. That's why you're asking the first place. And yet because still had that impact, still increased the percentage of people who said you asked by about 50%. And so it's not just the reason.

And I'm not saying the reason never matters, obviously it matters sometimes. But just using that word because makes it seem like there is a reason. And even if that reason isn't great, people are more likely to go along. And so that's just one example of the power of words. If we get to it, I could even talk about some examples. We're even just shifting a couple letters, can increase our impact, but that's a simple thing we can do

to increase our influence. Yeah, well, let's get into that. Let's talk about the importance of changing things to verbs, now and to verbs. I know that's really important, and that's your first bucket of words. It's called activate identity and agency. It's your first category of words out of the six types of words

that you call magical words. And so you mentioned a study where scientists ask a group of four and five-year-old kids to tidy up a room and some of them just ask them to help and some of them refer to these kids as helpers. And apparently changing a noun to a verb can have really big impacts. So talk to us about that.

Yeah, so backing up for just a second as you talked about, there's kind of six key buckets or words that I talk about in the book. And to help us remember what those buckets are, I put them in an acronym, and that's Speak. An S-P-E-A-C-C,

wasn't clever enough to come up with a K, though as somebody pointed out, K is always the tough letter and Scrabble, so I don't feel so bad. But the S stands for the language of similarity and difference, the P is the language of posing questions, the E is the language of emotion, the A, as you just mentioned, is the words that evoke identity and agency,

is the A, and then the C's are the language of confidence and the language of concreteness. And so let's dive in, as you said, to kind of the language of agency. And as you mentioned, there's this great study that asks, ask people for help. And in some ways, it's like the copier study and that we're trying to get people to do something, right? In that case, they're trying to get, you know, four and five years old to clean up a room. And so bunch of stuff on the floor, books, crayons, all sorts of different things. They're trying to get the kids to clean up. Some kids, they ask them to help. Can you help clean up as we often would do? And other kids they say, hey, can you be a helper? Now to put a opinion at the

difference between help and helpers is really small, right? It's not a completely different word. It's only adding two letters on the end of the same word, right? Helper is help inside it with the words letters E are at the end. But that led to a 30% increase in students' likelihood of helping. And it wasn't just kids in a classroom. Similar things have been found with adults. So a few years ago, there was a study published in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, where they tried to get more people to vote. And obviously, we all know that we should vote, yet we don't always. And so they sent notes out to people saying, hey, please go vote for some people go vote the verb vote.

And for other people, they said be a voter. And again, the difference between vote and voter is infotessively small. There's only one letter adding an R to the end of the word vote. Yet it led to about a 15% increase in people's likelihood of turning out. And so you might say, well, why? Right? Why did this subtle difference matter so much? And the key insight here is about turning actions into identities. And what do I mean by that? Well, voting is an action, helping is an action. We, there are many actions that people ask us to do or take all the time. And we know we should vote and we know we should help. But we're pretty busy. So we don't always take those actions. But what we care about more than actions are identities.

We care a lot about how we see ourselves and how other people see us. We want to be seen as attractive and smart and athletic and knowledgeable on all these different things. And so if actions are an opportunity to claim desired identities to show ourselves and others that we hold those identities, well, now we're much more likely to take that action. Helping, yeah, sure, it's a good thing, but if helping is opportunity to be a helper,

now much more likely to help out. Similarly, voting, I know I'm supposed to vote, but I'm so busy, well, hold on if voting is opportunity to be a voter, I'm much more likely to do it. And so one way to motivate people to actions, to turn those actions into identities, rather than asking people to lead, ask them to be a leader. They're much actions, to turn those actions into identities, rather than

asking people to lead, ask them to be a leader. They're much more likely to do those things because it seems more permanent. Same thing is true on the negative side. Losing is bad, being a loser is much worse. Cheating on a task, cheating on a test is bad, but being a cheater is much worse. And so when we want people not to do something, framing those negative things as identities makes people less likely to do them There's you guys remember the made me remember the campaign don't be a litter bug We all know we shouldn't litter but being a litter bug. Well, that's a really negative thing

I'm I'm less likely to do it and so this can even impact how we see ourselves if I told you about two people I have one friend who runs and another friend who is is a runner. Who would you say runs more often? The runner. The runner, right? Yeah. It's a stable part of who there. It's an identity. If someone says they drink coffee, yeah,

once in a while they have a cup of coffee. They're a coffee drinker. It must be who they are. And so who want to motivate ourselves? Well, let's use those identity labels, right? I'm a runner's going to make me run more often. Rather than talking about oneself as creating things, I think YouTube and other platforms have done a good job

of turning into a name. You're a creator. That sounds like a stable job. You're not just innovative. You're an innovator. When we're describing ourselves on a resume, don't just say we're hardworking, we're a hard worker. It seems much more permanent, just like a runner's more permanent than running.

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app. This is so interesting and I feel like it can be applied in so many ways of life. Marketing materials to motivate your team. Like as you're talking to customers, like you said, to motivate your team, like as you're talking to customers, like you said, to motivate yourself, there's so many ways that we can apply this, and it's such like adding two letters to a word can like make all the difference. It's just so surprising. It is, and I think it relies on the behavioral science

of identity, right? And you started by talking about nouns and verbs, and I know that's how I talk about it in the book, but I try not to say nouns and verb, because let me tell you, I don't even always remember exactly what a noun is and what a verb is. But they say, you have actions and identities. I think it's clear to us.

We all have desired identities and undesired identities. But by framing things as identities rather than actions, we can be helpful. Even I was just talking to someone and they said, oh, you know, I use this all the time when I talk to people who are disappointed. So if somebody loses, they might think they're a loser. Somebody fails, they might think they're a failure as who they are they might think they're a failure, as who they are. And instead of saying, look, you're not a failure, you just failed this one time. You got to get up and try again. You're not a loser, you just lost this particular game. I coach

kids soccer on the side. And so when talking to kids or talking to members of your team, if it's a negative thing, don't frame it as that identity. Frame it as more as an action a thing that happened as less persistent will make them more motivated. Yeah, I love that. So like positive things, you want it to be part of an identity so that people can align to it

and do more of the positive actions. Negative things you want to make it seem like it's a point in time. It's not who you are. It's just happened. Yeah, I love that. States and traits. Positive things are traits.

They're persistent. Negative things are states. They happen, but it's not who you are. Love that. Okay, so let's talk about the words I don't versus I can't. What do we need to know about that? Yeah. So, often when we're trying to stick to our goals, whether it's a goal to lose weight, whether

it's a goal to exercise more, whether it's a goal to spend less time on a particular app or doing a particular thing. Often there's temptation. We're on a diet and someone will say, do you want some chocolate cake or do you want to go out and grab some pizza? And often we want to say no, but how should we say no? And there's a great professor named Vanessa Patrick and she has a book coming out I think in the next six months or so, all about better ways to say no. And she has some great, great, great research on it.

And she says that if you ask people rather than saying, I can't do something. So, hey, would you like some chocolate cake? No, I can't. Saying, I don't eat chocolate cake, rather than I can't eat chocolate cake, I don't eat chocolate cake, makes us much more likely to stick to our goals.

If you're trying to work on something, not, I can't go out Friday night, but I don't, I'm not gonna go out this weekend. Don't rather than can't, works, because it makes us feel in control. Can't sounds external. Oh yeah, I can't do this because this external thing is getting in the way. If you had to fill in the blanks, you know, I didn't do whatever because I can't or I don't. Can't things are often external.

I can't eat the cake because I'm on a diet. I can't go to the party because I need to finish some work. It suggests you want to go to the party. You want to eat the cake, but this external thing is preventing you. As you say, I don't. Now you feel more in control of the agency that A in the framework, it's your agency. I don't eat chocolate cake. I don't go out when I've got to finish a project. This is who I am. I'm in the driver seat. I'm in control. And so I feel more powerful. And it helps me stick with the things I want to do already. And so even a subtle shift here again, one word can't versus don't can impact our success in our own goals.

Yeah. And I think it makes sense because it's essentially you're in alignment with your values. You have this value and you don't do this value. It's not because it's the wrong timing or it's because this person asks or the situation, it's your value that you don't break no matter what. So I can't imagine that would make you feel more powerful and confident if you stick to your values. I love the way you said it in terms of values really recently dealing with a consulting client that asked me to do something and I was thinking about this can't versus don't. I was going to say, you know, I can't or we can't. And then I was like, you know what, actually, we don't,

or I don't, it's just much, this is how it is. These are the guidelines we live by. This is what is possible. And this is what isn't. And hey, it makes me feel more certain in myself, but it also makes it clear, look, it's not about you. It's not about this specific time. It's about who we are as an organization.

And so it's often much more effective. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to read a quote from your book. You write, although 60% of CEOs in one study said that creativity is the most important leadership quality. 75% of people think they're not living up to their creative potential. So please talk to us about how we can become more creative by fostering a good mindset instead of a should mindset. This is again something that happens to us all the time. I'll be working on a project and I'm stuck. I'll be working on a chapter of a book or a paper or a solution for a consulting client

and I'm not sure which way to go. I'm not sure what to come up with. I need to, I do some brand naming work. I can't come up with a name or I'm doing some marketing consulting work. I need to think about the right way to apply the strategy. And I'm stuck. And this happens to us all the time. It clearly happens at work regardless of what role we have.

It also happens in our personal lives. Sometimes we're trying to make a tough decision and we're stuck. And problem solving is difficult. It's difficult to be creative, particularly under under pressure. But as you noted, it turns out that again, a shift in just one word can increase our effectiveness. There was a nice study out of Harvard Business School where they brought people in and asked them to sell, solve a tough problem.

And for some people, they asked them to think about what they should do. This is how we solve problems all the time, right? We often ask ourselves, what should I do? I'm choosing between two jobs, which one should I take? I'm considering two apartments, which one should I go with? I'm two strategies, which one should I do? And so half the people took that traditional approach. For the other half, they changed just one word. They said, instead of thinking about what you should do, think about what you could do. And they found that for people in this could group, the second bucket, not only they come

up with more creative ideas, but they came up with more effective ideas overall. And they found that for people in this could group the second bucket, not only they come up with more creative ideas, but they came up with more effective ideas overall. And could work for a couple reasons. First, basically widens the possibilities. We're not just thinking about, okay, what's that one right answer should often narrows us, right? Which should I do? There's one right answer. Could widens us. What's possible? And even if all those things that are possible aren't the best idea, that's not the best thing to choose at the end by thinking about those possibilities, it helps us come up with a better, a better answer. And so whether we're talking to a team and they're facing a tough problem, rather than saying, hey guys, you know, think about what you should do, let's think about what we could do before we come up with a final

solution or for ourselves. Right? When we're thinking about it, okay, well, what could I do? I could do this. Thinking about those options will help us reach better solutions. Yeah, I really like that advice because basically could enable us to release all the resource constraints. You don't think about the money or the people involved or the time involved. You're just like, what could I do to solve this problem? Then you can think about what's good or bad resource wise and where you want to spend your time. I think that's great advice. Okay, so let's move on to confidence. Okay, so you have

a second category of magic words, words that convey confidence. And I must be your myself. So I understand that displaying confidence is really important and making sure that you speak with power is really important. And Trump is somebody who people love and hate, right? But at the end of the day, he was an impactful speaker. That's why he went from being somebody that everybody sort of hated to becoming president, right? So talk to us about what Trump did effectively with his persuasion and speech. You know, just as you said, I think about this a lot as a communicator.

We're all communicators in one way or another, whether we're standing up in front of a room and pitching our idea, whether we're standing up on a stage and talking to an audience, whether we're talking to one person and trying to get them to support our idea, we're often communicating things. And we all have someone in our lives who's really charismatic. Whenever they talk other people, other people listen, I wish I was that person. I'm not this person, but I can definitely think of two people

in my own life that are this way. And so what do they do that makes other people listen, right? When they open their mouths, everybody listens, how does that work? And so in the book I talk about Donald Trump and I don't want to get into politics, but whether you like Trump or you hate Trump, you can't deny that he's done an amazing job

of selling his ideas. Right, if you like him and you like his ideas, fantastic't deny that he's done an amazing job of selling his ideas. Right, if you like him and you like his ideas, fantastic. How do he make it work? And even if you hate him, well, even more reason to figure out, well, even if you don't like his ideas, he got a whole bunch of people to support those ideas. Why? What did he do to get people to support those ideas? And if you look closer, there's a speech he made, for example, and I think he announced his initial president run where he said something like, you know, if elected, I'm going to build a wall. It'll build a great wall and I'll do it very cheaply. And you know, we don't have victories anymore.

We used to have victories, but now we don't take China and trade deals, you know, losing on this trade deal. I beat China all the time, all the time. And he sort of had this speech talking about his different ideas. And it was met with different responses depending on political beliefs. But at least some people said, look, it's overly simplistic, it's bluster, there's nothing there. Yet a year later, he was elected president.

And so even if you feel like there's nothing there, he clearly did something right. What is that thing? And if you look closer, you'll notice he does the same thing that great sales people do. He does the same thing that great sales people do, he does the same thing that great entrepreneurs do, he does the same thing that gurus do, which is that he speaks with a great deal of certainty. What do I mean by certainty? Well certain things are obvious. The answer is clear.

This will definitely work. This is absolutely true. Everyone agrees with XYZ. He uses certain language to communicate his points and there's been some research that shows the benefit of certain language. Work on financial advisors, for example, shows that, hey, people are much more likely to pick an advisor that speaks with greater certainty. Even when that person is not clearly right, the right and equal amount of the time, the fact that they speak with more certainty makes people want to work with them more. Why? Because regardless if someone's right or not, the fact that they speak with so much certainty, it's hard not to believe they could be right. Because they seem so sure. They seem so clearly sure of what they're saying. Well, I must, they must be right.

I should go along. Contrast that with what most of us do most of the time. And I am guilty of this more than, more than anybody. When I work with consulting clients, someone will say, what do you think about this strategy or what's the right direction? And I'll say something like, I think that's a good idea. This might work. It seems like this could be a good possibility. I use what are called hedges. And we all hedge all the time. Might could possibly seem all of these are words that indicate some level of uncertainty. And while it's good to use these words sometimes, they undermine our impact. Often without intending to by using these words, we make ourselves less persuasive. We looked at hundreds of thousands of online reviews, for example, and a variety of different types of social interactions. And we found the more people

hedge, the less like other people are to listen to them. And the reason why is what people sit there going, hey, look, you don't seem confident in what you're saying. And if you're not even confident in it, why should I follow your advice? And so as communicators, first of all, and I talk about a few different strategies in the book, but at least one is we gotta ditch the hedges. If we're trying to communicate uncertainty, that's fine.

But if our goal is for other people to listen to us, well, then we gotta stop hedging so much much. Often we hedge without even thinking about it, but those hedges are hurting our ability to persuade. This reminds me so much of I had Kelly Roach on the show and she talks about conviction marketing and the importance of having convictions in your market marketplace and really standing by them and this reminds me a lot about it because if you're an expert and you don't strongly believe in what you're saying or doing and you're speaking in this way like I think this might be or in my opinion, it's like you either believe this is a way

for people or not, especially when you're trying to be an expert or a thought leader. No one's going to follow you if you're uncertain about what you're saying to begin with. So you need to just believe in what you're the advice you're giving and say it strongly. I think that's exactly right. And the only thing I would add is so many people say, well, what if I am uncertain? What if it's not clear what the answer is? What I like to talk about there is, well, let's own the uncertainty, right? Like when a consultant client asked me for advice, I have a strategy I think is best, but there's often some uncertainty about how they'll implement it. Well, let me call that out. I think this rather than saying, I don't know. I'm not sure.

I think the strategy might work. I want to say, I think this is the best strategy. But for it to work, we need to do these three things. For this to happen, these other things need to occur. I'm really certain about what needs to occur for this to work. But I'm not saying I'm uncertain about the strategy itself. I'm very certain about the strategy.

And I'm certain about what we need to do to make it work. And so by owning that uncertainty, we can in some sense both indicate that, hey, some things have to happen, but it's not that we don't think it's achievable. We do think it is. We need everybody else to get on board. Yeah, that makes sense. So my next question is not in your book necessarily. I had Robert Green on the show. I'm sure you know who he is. He was one of the first interviews that I ever had on the show. And one of my first viral episodes, we talked about his 48 laws of power. And he's got this law number four. And it's always say less than necessary. And his logic is that if you can't control your words, you can't control yourself. The more you say, the more stupid you may appear. And he also says that if you want to sound really profound and smart, you should be really simple and vague

and open-ended and sphinx-like. And even if something's obvious and boring, if you are really vague when you say it and sort of succinct, people will believe you more because they're like, well, they'll try to be like a mind reader. Like, what does he really mean with what he's saying, right? So do you have any thoughts about that? Like all this research that you've done with magic words

agree or disagree I know Robert came out with his book a long time ago so so I would say a few things and and the main thing is I try not to have opinions I try just to look at data when I write a book and I know there've been many language books written before I try to say here's the academic research here's what it shows. And to be clear, not every type of language is good in every situation, right? Even take the language of certainty. Research shows that when we're trying to get somebody who disagrees with us strongly to meet in the middle, sometimes it's actually better to show a little bit of uncertainty there because it makes them feel like we're open to opposing viewpoints.

And because they feel like we're open to opposing viewpoints, they're more like it'll listen to what we have to say as a result. And so sometimes the answer is it depends. It depends on a couple of things. I think to what you mentioned that he suggested, I think there's certainly times where being simpler in our language is better. I think though that there's a difference between simplicity and shortness. And let me give you an example. So often when I work with clients

about making messaging simpler, they say, well, let's just cut down the number of words. So they still say, hey, there are four things you need to know or 17 things you need to know, but now I'm gonna give each one a sentence rather than five sentences. And I often say, well, hold on, we've cut the length down, but it's equally complicated.

We haven't reduced the complication. And so making things simple is really not just about shortening them, but relentlessly prioritizing. Particularly if you're trying to figure out what your value proposition is as a company, not saying, well, we do nine different things, but saying, well, what's the most important one? Sure, there's a second most and a third, but let's rank them. And it's not that the ninth most important is is important, but it's the ninth most important, which means it's less important than the eighth

and the seventh and so on. And so that relentless prioritization helps us when we have to be simple, say well, let's just focus on the most important thing because we can't focus on everything. And so I completely agree that being simple is key. I think sometimes short can be confused for simple and they're actually two separate things.

Yeah, 100%. And I know that people can be confused for simple and they're actually two separate things. Yeah, 100%. And I know that people can't remember a whole lot, give or take five, five or seven things, right? So making sure that your points are succinct are definitely important. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. Hear that sound, young and profitors? You should know that sound by now,

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Kelly Roach is a best-selling author, a top-ranked podcast host, and an extremely talented marketer. She's the owner of Not One, but six thriving companies. And now she's ready to share her knowledge and experience with you on the Kelly Roach show. Kelly is an inspirational entrepreneur and I highly respect her. She's been a guest on YAP. She was a former social client. She's a podcast client. And I remember when she came on Young and Profiting and she talked about her conviction marketing framework, it was like mind blowing to me. I remember immediately implementing what she taught me in the interview in my company and the marketing efforts that we were doing and as a marketer

I really really respect all Kelly has done all Kelly has built in the corporate world Kelly secured seven promotions in just eight years But she didn't just stop there. She was working in I to five and at the same time She built her eight figure company as a side hustle and eventually took it and made her full-time hustle and her strategic business goals led her to win the prestigious Inc. 500 award for the fastest growing business in the United States. She's built an empire she's earned a life-changing wealth and on top of all that she maintains a happy marriage and a healthy home life. On the Kelly Road show you'll learn that it's possible to have it all. Tune into the Kelly Road Show as she unveils her secrets for growing your business. It doesn't matter if you're just starting out in your career or if you're already a seasoned

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things have settled a bit, and I'm really focused on revamping and improving our company culture. I have 16 employees, so it's a lot of people to try to rally and motivate, and I recently had best-selling author Kim Scott on the show. And after previewing her content in our conversation, I just knew I had to take her class on master class, tackle the hard conversations with Radical Cander to really absorb all she has to offer. And now I'm using her Radical Cander method every day,

with my team to give in solicit feedback, to cultivate a more inclusive culture, and to empower them with my honesty. And I can see my team feeling more motivated and energized already. They are really receptive to this framework, and I'm so happy because I really needed this class. With masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best anytime, anywhere, and at your own pace. And we all know that profiting in life doesn't just mean thriving in business. With masterclass, you can brush up on your art skills, or your cooking skills, or even your modeling skills, with over 180 classes from a range of world class instructors. That thing you've always wanted to do better is just a few clicks away. On Masterclass, you'll find courses from many appa-alster guests like Chris Voss and Daniel Pink. I've been taking their sales and negotiation classes and I've been feeling like a real

shark lately. I've totally leveled up my sales skills. How much would it cost you to take a one-on-one class from the world's best. A lot. But with Masterclass annual memberships, it just cost you $10 a month. I have to say the most surprising thing about Masterclass since I started this incredible journey on the platform is the value. For the quality of classes, instructors, the platform itself is beautiful, the videos are super high quality, you can't beat it. Gain new skills and as little as 10 minutes on your phone, your computer, tablet, smart TV, and my personal favorite way to learn is their audio mode to listen on the go. That way, I can multitask while I learn. Get unlimited access to every class and right now,

as the app listener, you can get 15% off when you go to masterclass.com slash profiting. That's masterclass.com slash profiting for 15% off when you go to masterclass.com-profiting. That's masterclass.com-profiting for 15% off an annual membership. Masterclass.com-profiting. Okay, so let's continue on in terms of understanding confidence here. So let's talk about using less filler words. You say that we shouldn't hesitate. A lot of us are used to saying, um, as you know, that's right. Why shouldn't we use these filler words and do you have any advice in terms of how to get rid of them? Because I think a lot of us have this problem.

Yeah. Someone was talking to me recently about this and they said, the challenge with the language of confidence is that sometimes it can come off badly. And so they made the point, look, you know, if you're an older white male, maybe when you seem confident that's good, but maybe when you're a younger and non-white female, maybe it's a little bit harder for confidence to be digested. If I'm a young person in office and I'm a young woman,

maybe my older colleagues don't want me to seem overly confident. And I said, I completely agree when it comes to hedges, and sometimes speaking too directly and removing hedges can seem too confident, but I disagree when it comes to fillers. And that is that many of us fill conversational space. We say, um, we say, uh, we say like. And by removing those things, it's an easy way to make people like us more and think we're more professional. It's hard often to see our use of fillers. When we speak, I do it all the time. When you ask a great question, I think they're going, um, uh, like sort of buying myself time is I'm thinking, but when we see it on paper, we go,

oh my god, look at these things. I was working with a, a coaching client and they're a salesperson, and we were having these interactions over Zoom because it was during the pandemic. And eventually Zoom came out with this new feature that would allow you to get a transcript of that conversation. And we're trying to figure out why the sales pitch wasn't working. And when you look to the transcript, it was just painfully obvious. Every other sentence, there was an arm, and it's just a bump in the conversational conversational flow. And so let's get rid of those, those fillers, right? I'm rather than just saying it because it's easy, pause for a second. And I, to the earlier comment about being short and concise, being powerful, I think pausing can be really

powerful. I'm bad at this terrible at this myself, but if you look at folks like great speakers, like Barack Obama or others, he often uses pauses for really powerful effect. Pausing can be a great way to show that you're thinking to provide emphasis. So, rather, if you need to think, no problem, we often need to think. But let's think through pausing rather than sort of filling it in with something that makes us not look as good as a result. Yeah, and the other thing I would say is like, listen to yourself. A lot of people, I don't think, take the time to actually listen to what they sound like on a presentation

or on a podcast episode or whatever it is. Like, even if it's painful, even if you hate listening to your voice, go back, record yourself, and listen to yourself. So one more question on confidence that we're gonna go onto questions. Let's talk about the importance of using the present tense. I thought this was a really cool hack.

Yeah, so think about something that's happened. So a job candidate comes into the office and you can say, they seemed good or they seem good. You come back from a vacation, you can say the beach was beautiful or the beach is beautiful. Many times we describe things using past tense, what happened. And it turns out using present tense is more persuasive.

When we say the food was good, it makes it seem like, well, at that particular point in time, that experience I had, the food was good. If I say the food is good, it says, well, wait a second. It is good for all time, and everyone else will have a good experience as well. So using present tense showcases the certainty that we have makes other people feel like more and more certain and makes them more likely to listen to us as a result. Yeah, I feel like this theme of certainty is just popping up with this confidence section. All right, let's talk about the third category, ask the right question. So I had Robert

Chaldini on the show. He's known as the godfather of influence and persuasion. And he talked about something that you also talk about in your book, which is the importance of asking for advice. And a lot of people are scared to ask for advice because I think it's going to make them look stupid and competent, but actually it has the adverse effects. So talk to us about the importance of asking questions and asking for advice. Yeah, I'm again guilty of this as anybody else's, but I think often we're worried if we ask for advice, we'll bother someone, they won't be able to answer what we have, or even worse, they'll think negatively of us, right? They'll say something, oh, why don't you know the answer yourself? So we think that asking for advice is a bad idea, but it turns out that it's not.

There's some very nice research out of Harvard University that had a bunch of people have different social interactions, and for some of them, people asked for advice and others they didn't, and they found that asking for advice actually made people look better, not worse. And one question is, well, why? Why would asking for advice make you look better? And the reason is very simple. We're all EgoCentric.

We all think we have great ideas. We all think we give a great advice. And so when other people ask us for advice, we go, oh wow, that person's really smart because they ask me for advice, right? And so by asking for advice, right, we take advantage of the fact that people think of themselves positively and take advantage of that to help ourselves out as well. Yeah.

So I would like to ask a more general question. A lot of the people who listen to my podcast are entrepreneurs, their side hustlers, and a lot of them are just involved in sales and love the topic of sales. So can you just give us your best advice after all this research, a scrapbook that you put out, what can we do better in terms of language for sales? Yeah, I think it as you nicely said, pay attention to your pitch,

whether you're a communicator, a speaker, a podcaster, whatever it is, we use language all the time, we don't see it. Record it, listen to it, digest it, unpack it. Think about, okay, well, am I using a word like can't or don't? Am I using telling you to mean action or an identity? Really dive down into what the pieces of what you're trying to communicate are? Not just the topics, what you're trying to say,

this is a great product, you should buy this, you're going to like this. That's fine, how are you saying it? What are the words or language that you're using to communicate those ideas? By delving deeply into the exact words you're using and the ways you're using them, we can all increase our effectiveness. Are there any words and sales that we should never use? I wouldn't say there are words we should never use. I would say, and I think this is somewhat obvious already, but start with understanding.

Too often as sales folks, we want to basically drop off the pitch. I want to send 100 emails with the same information in each of them and assume somebody will bite. While that seems efficient, it's often not very effective overall because it's not tailored to our audience. The more we understand our audience, the more we understand what they care about, why they might be interested in what we're offering, the more effective we can be as a salesperson. Got it. I'm'm gonna close this interview out with the same two questions we ask all our guests. The first one is, what is one action-ampleting

our young and profitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow? Pay attention to language. We use it all the time. We are all speakers. We are all writers, whether we get on stage, whether we write books and essays, or whether we just write emails,

or just speak to clients and colleagues. We are all writers and speakers. By understanding the power of language, we can increase our impact. And what is your secret to profiting in life? I think, and now people can go back and listen to the other episode and see whether I said the same thing, but I think what I would say and sorry if I said the same thing before, is it's always just great to be curious. There are always, almost anything out there is interesting if you look at it long enough. So I think being curious and having curiosity is a great skill. Awesome. And where can everybody find magic words and learn more about you? Oh, thanks. Yeah. So the book is available wherever books are sold. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble,

local independent booksellers, whatever you like. Folks can find me at johnaburger.com. There's not only more information about the book, but also a whole bunch of free resources so that speak framework that we talked about, one page or about it, a guide for using language more effectively, asking better questions, all of which should be helpful. Awesome, thanks so much, Jonah. Thanks for having me. Well, I have to say this conversation really got me thinking about words. Words are how we persuade, communicate, and connect. They're how leaders lead, how sells people sell, how teachers teach, how policymakers

govern. Even our private thoughts rely on language. Like Jonah mentioned in the beginning of the interview, we use over 16,000 words a day. We spend a lot of time thinking about our ideas and our requests and the things that we want. But a lot of us put much less thought into the specific words that we use when communicating these ideas and requests. But all this does us a disservice. Because certain words are more impactful than others. Certain words are better at changing minds, engaging audiences or driving actions. The right word in the right place can vastly

change whether somebody agrees to a request or finds our ideas compelling. In fact, Jonas says that research shows that adding the word because to a request can make people 50% more likely to say yes, even if the reason behind that because isn't very good make people 50% more likely to say yes. Even if the reason behind that because isn't very good. People are just more likely to say yes when you say the word because. Another example we went over today was changing a noun to verb. Don't ask people to help. Call them helpers.

Don't ask people to vote. Instead, call them voters. Let them find their identity in the thing you want them to do. Turn actions into identities. And when speaking on behalf of yourself, you also need to choose your words wisely. Turns out there's a right and a wrong way to say no. Stay away from saying you can't do something if you really don't want to do something. And instead, say you don't do that thing. Because now you've made what you're saying no to part of your internal value system, whereas saying that you can't do something suggests that there's some external factor

preventing you from doing the thing that you want to say no to. Jonah gave us so many tips today, and the net net, young and profitors, is that subtle shifts in language can have a huge impact in us achieving the outcomes that we're looking for. If you want to learn more about the power of words, go get Jonah Berger's latest book Magic Words. Thank you for listening to this episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. If you listen, learn and profited, share this episode with your friends and family, and drop us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. That's the number one way to thank me

and everybody who works hard on the show. If you like watching your podcast videos, you can find us on YouTube, and you guys can also find me on Instagram at Gap with Hala, or LinkedIn by searching my name, it's Hala Taha. Big shout out to my amazing and hardworking Yap team, thanks for all that you do behind the scenes. This is your host, Halataha, aka the podcast princess, signing off. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast.

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