Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Mike Winnet: Get Demotivated | E19

Episode Date: February 25, 2019

Let’s get demotivated! Taking a turn from the usual this week, we’re yappin’ with comedian Mike Winnet, who describes himself as the UK’s #1 Demotivational Speaker. Mike is a successful entrepreneur who sold his last business for multiple millions. He now spends his free time on a parody LinkedIn account making people laugh through his hard-hitting advice and unconventional wisdom. Tune in to hear Mike's perspective on what it takes to become an entrepreneur, and uncover how he plans to confront get-rich scammers or ‘contreprenuers’ who prey on those with low self esteem. Want to connect with other YAP listeners? Join the YAP Society on Slack: bit.ly/yapsociety Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'm your host, Halitaha, and today I'm talking to Mike Winnett, who describes himself as the UK's number one demotivational speaker. Mike is a successful entrepreneur who sold his last business for multiple millions and now spends his free time making people laugh through his hard-hitting advice. Mike gives folks a reality check on what it really takes to become an entrepreneur and confronts get-rich scammers or catch-pronours who prey on those with low self esteem. Hey Mike, welcome to Young Improving Podcast. Thanks for having me, thanks for inviting me on. Of course, I'm excited and scared for this interview

because you're the first comedian that I've had on the show. And so I don't know how it's gonna go, but I'm excited for it. Am I your first English guest you've had on? No, I have a lot of listeners from the UK and I've had on the show. And so I don't know how it's gonna go, but I'm excited for it. I'm on your first English guest, you've had on. No, I have a lot of listeners from the UK and I've had Philip Nunn, he's a cryptocurrency expert. Yeah, no, I see him on LinkedIn. Okay, so you've made quite a name for yourself

over the years. You've worked with some of the UK's biggest businesses. You have a huge LinkedIn following. You sell out talks around the world and you call yourself a demotivational speaker, which is not something we typically hear of. In fact, I never heard of that before you. So can you explain to us what is it that you exactly do?

So I just let people realize that you can't be everything you dream that you can be. You can't achieve this huge successful life that a lot of these motivational speakers are trying to convince you can do. So I basically just tell them to sort of re-evaluate their goals, ambitions, be a bit more realistic and understand the reason why they're being told they can achieve these things by motivational speakers, inspirational leaders and these contributors on social media, Instagram, LinkedIn, stuff like that.

And so where did you come up with the idea of becoming a demotivational speaker? Well, it's kind of a play on the fact that if you look at social media now, anybody can change their bio and be an expert in their field, and it can be any field they choose. So it was just a play on that fact. So I didn't know any of the demotivational speakers on LinkedIn. So I just thought I will change my LinkedIn bio to say UK's number one demotivational speaker

and lo and behold, the request for me to come and talk started to rolling. And it was kind of a play on the fact that it's so easy to create an online persona and a background. And very few people actually do any background checks or research the people that they follow online. And I'm just showing you how easy it is to create this false narrative

that I call them sheep or wood to sort of buy into. That's so funny. You've actually grown a huge following on LinkedIn. Why do you think what you do is so compelling? I think it's because people are a bit more aware of what's going on. I think on LinkedIn now we are sick of the copy and paste posts by self-proplained inspirational leaders. And I think it's like a growing sort of crowd for that. And I just appeal to that crowd mainly because I'm saying what a lot of these people want to say, but can't say because they work for companies where they sort of said that thing online,

it could be detrimental to their employment or how they're seeing online. So I think I get to say and do and be how a lot of these people would like to be. And I can't wait to get to that and talk more about that. But before we do that, I think a good introduction for my listeners is to go over some of the funny and catchy terms that you've coined over the years about people that we may encounter in our professional lives. You talk about things like wantrapreneurs, humble braggers, entrepreneurs. So I'd like to unpack these. Let's start with humble bragging. What is that? Tell us about that. Well, we've all seen humble brags. You know, you see them on Facebook, you see them on Instagram,

and it's a growing trend to see them all linked in now. So what it basically is, it's somebody that wants to boast or let everybody know of something that they're proud of, but they realize it's a bit wonky to say, look at my new Range Rover Sport or look at my new Lamborghini. So instead of just saying, aren't I amazing, I've got myself a new sports car, they try and dress that fact up in a really nice story. So it could be, look at the weather outside today, I'm stuck on my drive, it's terrible weather today and then it's a picture of the brand

new Lamborghini with a little bit of snow on top. Now we all know what they're up to and that's kind of what a humble bracket. So it could be, I've gone and helped some homeless person today. And there's a photo of them with a homeless person giving them a coat. It's like, well, you could have done that deed without telling the world, but what you want is people say, you're an amazing person, hon.

You're an amazing inspirational leader. And that's what it is, but it's a growing, growing trend. And again, I think a lot of people are doing it, but it's so cringey. I don't know why people continue to do it because we all know what they're up to. Yeah. Okay. How about a Wantrapreneur?

What is that? A Wantrapreneur is pretty much 98% of the people that would attend a Tony Robbins event, a Gary V event, Grand Cardone 10X event. These are people with all the gear and no idea. They'll tell you about their million-dollar idea, but they'll tell you whether on the lunch break in the 9-5 job. They will watch, I'm not your guru on Netflix, but in reality, they are not gonna do anything

to make that dream a reality. But they would love to tell you about the new book that they've read by the latest popular inspirational guru, and they'll tell you they're all on book and they'll see Tony Robbins, but they're never ever gonna actually do anything with all this knowledge that they're acquiring, because the rather post-vow to online talk about it to people that aren't really interested, rather than actually putting the hard yards and

the graft to be successful. So they're one-trippin'ers, and they're an easy group to sell to, because they're smart enough to realise they want to escape the 9-to-5, or they realise they need to do something about it, yet they haven't really got the ability or the balls to go and take that step. What's your advice from turning from a wantraponor into a real entrepreneur? You know, I don't honestly, I don't think there's any advice I could give

to help them if they can't do that by themselves, then they're not gonna make it anyway. So I mean, there are great groups of entrepreneurs to trick and separate from their money because a full and their money is parted very, very easily. So that's who entrepreneurs usually target is one-chip owners. Okay, so that tells what a entrepreneur is. So a entrepreneur is, and this is what I'm mainly focusing on at the moment.

So these are people that are selling shortcuts to to success, so one-short winners and idiots. So these are people that you'll see in your Facebook feed, you'll see in your Instagram feed, telling you how you can do a three-day bootcamp with them for a discounted price of $1997, and you will be making six figures from drop shipping in six months time or from passive income through property in six months time or how you can make money flipping products in e-commerce or how you can make a million dollars a

year through crypto mining. But they're always selling you a course to achieve that. The best example I can give at this would be the gold rush. There's a gold rush on to be rich and wealthy, but these people don't own any gold and aren't mining for gold or aren't digging for gold. What they are doing is selling the spades to idiots, so idiots can go and dig for the gold. They're making more money from selling spades than they are making from actual gold, and that's what Contra Padaeza, and there's hundreds and hundreds of them on social media. What are the red flags to look out for? Some of my listeners don't get scammed by a contrapreneur. Well, red flags are, they'll be talking at a success resources event.

They've paid a B at that show. They're telling you they've got a time limited offer on an online course, or they've got limited stock of an online course. If it's an online course, how can it be limited? You're not physically selling a product off a shelf, I... And they'll be telling you it gets the back to the room now, and they stack the value. The price will usually end in a seven.

So for one day only, it'll be $97 for the first 50 people that go to the back of the room and sign up now. They'll inflate their achievements. But really, look at a success resources event. It's the perfect example. How many people in that crowd are actually going to become a millionaire or make six figures from the thing that this entrepreneur is selling? I would guess probably less than 1%. In any other industry, if you had a product that only works 1% of the time, there would be something done about it, wouldn't it? You'd be done for false advertising or for faulty goods, but in this industry, because it

isn't regulated, they can get away with it. And that's what they hang their hats on. They hang their hats on that one story about one person that's been to their course once it's gone on and done well. Yeah. As proof, it works. But imagining medical trials for a new drug, if you had a drug that only cured one in a hundred people, would everyone be rushing to use that drug? Yeah, it's so true. And now that I think about it, there's always these weird commercials on the radio and on TV. And it's like, they're allowed to freely advertise their scam. It's kind of ridiculous.

And this is kind of where we're at at the moment and this is probably why Mike when it does well on LinkedIn. It's because there's a movement now that's aware of this because with the internet it's a double-edged sword. Surely you can target one-chipiners and idiots to potentially sell your scam to. But on the flip side of that these idiots have also got social media. So when you do scam these people, they're quick to announce it on social media. Look at the Grand Cardone 10X conference in Miami recently. On the first day, there was about 2,500 tweets saying about how the speakers were just trotting out the usual drivel.

It was just basically an hour long pitch by each of the speakers there, the retouching of how to suck eggs. So what are you actually gaining from being there? Nothing apart from you get the grabberts assets attached to your social media posts saying, hey, look at me, in Miami at the 10X growth con. But that's not going to make you rich. If anything, it's major poorer being there. You took a day off work and you've spent money to be there to hear something. You could ultimately hear for free on YouTube. major poorer being that you took a day off work and you've spent money to be there to hear something.

You could ultimately hear for free on YouTube. I know that you're trying to uncover these entrepreneurs. I was browsing through your LinkedIn and you've got a goal for 2019 to uncover the truth behind Get Rich Quick Schemes, pushed by entrepreneurs. So you're trying to see if these shortcuts to success can really work and you're actually investing your own time and money into different popular passive income streams, so whether that's cryptocurrency or real estate, YouTube revenue e-commerce,

all these different types of things that entrepreneurs are trying to sell us, tell us, what are you trying to prove with this experiment and what are your thoughts on passive income? So it's an interesting question here now. So passive income, I do believe in passive income because there's some things that I've invested in that are long-term proven strategies.

So I've invested in properties I've invested in other businesses I've invested in stocks and shares. They're shown to work, but they're not very sexy and they don't give you the returns promised by what these entrepreneurs push on Instagram and social media. So I do believe in passive income, but it's a longer play. In the short term, what I wanted to do is actually investigate some of these, what I would call cons or scams and see if there is

anything in them because it's easy for me to stand on the outside and say it's all nonsense or bullshit, but that's just opinion. So I thought, I was successful in my last business. It's sold for multiple millions. I'm now in a position where I don't necessarily have to work. I was being targeted by people on LinkedIn to say, you're just negative, the reason why you aren't successful, because they don't know my backstory,

is because you won't give these a go. So I thought, you know what I will do, then I will play your own game and I will do the courses and the scams and try these passive income streams that you are promoting. And I will report it to my sort of crowd or people that follow me or are connected to me online. And they can see the journey from start to finish. So I will do all the bootcamps, I will do all the online courses, I will join their Facebook groups and I will do two of a letter as I am told by these contributors and report it as is for people to see for

free on my YouTube channel. I don't think necessarily that all of them will be successful. I don't necessarily want to go out and try and prove that they're all wrong. I would love to be proved wrong. I would love to be wrong about every single one because then if they are right and I can make a million dollars from all of these passive income streams, this time next year I'll come on the show and say, I was wrong but I'm also a six million dollars richer. And so you're giving each one of these passive

income streams a con rating. Con rating, yeah. You're hilarious. So you're giving each one of these a con rating. Have you started already? Have you seen if any of them are working or not working or one's more viable than the other? Yeah, so we've started now.

And in a weird way, this is like the little, the quiet before the storm because we're undercover in a lot of these groups. So I'm going to boot camps undercover. I mean, Facebook groups undercover, doing online courses undercover. So I can't give too much away, but we will start releasing content on the YouTube channel. So people can see what scams we are investigating

where we're up to and what we hope to do is maybe do a little docuseries or a little documentary on each scam at different stages. So this is what we did to start, this is what we found out, this is what we were doing the courses and this is what the end results were. So you can kind of follow that line but once I can tell you about so we've got crypto mining rigs running, so far they've not hit the numbers that we've promised, not by a long shot. And we've also had some technical and hardware issues with the mining rigs already. So they were supposed to last three years, we're three months in and we've already have to start replacing parts.

We've got the properties that we've got in the UK. They're not making the yield to promise. We've got a villa in Spain that we're just about to start advertising to rent that out. And again, the numbers promise there aren't the numbers that we're now looking at after we've made the purchase. So a lot of the people that hooked us in with these huge headline in figures and return on investments, not one of them so far

as living up to what was expected, which, to be honest, was kind of expected anyway. But it's easy to say that I not do it, but now I can do it and say, well, look, this is exactly what we did. This is exactly where we advertised it. This is exactly how much money we made or lost. So on some of them, I can't tell you anything about them,

because I'm actually working alongside or in these groups with what I suspect a contrapreneurs. Some of them even like me and think I'm the best student, they've got. You know, it's so funny that you're doing this because people might think that you're negative and that you're just trying to like cause trouble. But really that you're doing this because people might think that you're negative and that you're just trying to like cause trouble. But really, you're trying to help people.

You're trying to help people from being scammed and being tricked into losing their money and investing their money in something that's just going to make a contrapreneur rich. So that's actually a very noble thing that you're doing. You know what I would say? I will say this now. And this goes to people that run these

courses. If you hand on heart, genuinely believe the hyperbole that you use to promote your course, you would have no problem in inviting me in. Because why would you? Because this would be the best advertising you will ever get. Because I am going to go and put it on YouTube and put it on LinkedIn where some of my posts are doing between 500,000 to a million views. And that will be the best one of advertising for you. If I come and do your bootcamp or get mentored by you and then I go on and make a million dollars a year doing that, surely that's the best ad for ever. But you'll be amazed how many don't want to know or don't want to speak to me. And I think if you think this is targeting you or you think that this isn't right or makes you feel nervous then you are part of the problem.

100%. I can imagine this to be like a Netflix series. Have you ever considered anything like that? Well, if Netflix is your listening, I'm open to offers because everything I've invested in so far for the last three months hasn't made me a penny so I could do it with the money. Yeah. Okay, so another fun fact about you is that you've got a lot of fake books out there. They're on your website and they look legit and actually my research assistants were looking

all over for them and then we came to realize it was just a joke. Yeah. One of them is called Contra Nure. Everyone is winning but you. The other one is called Are You Average? Forty-tailed hailsines that your average. These books are fake but you do have like a deeper meaning behind them. You argue that the average person leads a beautiful and fulfilling life, but nobody wants to admit that they're average. Why do you think that nobody is okay with being normal? And maybe let's start with some of the internal psychological factors that might be at play. Yeah, so I would say some people are okay being normal or average. I just wish more people were happy with that that because if you're

Unhappy with what you've got now. It doesn't matter if you go and make a million dollars or ten million dollars You still won't be happy because those deep rooted or underlying Issues will still be there and I know that from Personal experience when I sold my business and it's crazy to see my sound so on You would think you'd be happy if you had two million dollars in your bank account or $3 million in your bank account or $5 million in your bank account. But honestly I felt completely indifferent. I did not feel any happy by having that money. So unless you're happy with what you've got and you appreciate the things that you've got, it doesn't matter how much money you have, you're never going to be happy with that. But I think

people aren't happy with being average or they have convinced themselves that they can't settle for being average mainly because of social meter and how everything's pushed online. What you're seeing now is heavily filtered or photo shots, images pushed online with hundreds and thousands of likes.

And then people start thinking that that's what's important. But really, this is a false image of a moment in their life that they've heavily filtered and altered. But they're never putting that out as if they look like that all the time or their life is like that all the time. When in reality, they've probably leased that card. They're probably at a house viewing, but they've made sure they've filmed their Instagram live there and stuff like that. So I think social media's got a lot to blame. It's the equivalent today of say, body issues or image issues that people might have had during the 90s, you know, with magazines and stuff like that. It's just on a wider scale now.

Yeah. So that's what I think is what people more interested in. They'd rather look successful or look happy or the detriment of real life in their everyday life. So people are putting pressure on themselves to aspire to be something that they see. Almost 24 or 7, but that's external factors that are probably influencing their internal psychology if that makes sense. Yeah, totally. So your books aren't the only thing that is fake. Your name is fake too.

Mike Winett is actually just a stage name. What's the story and motivation behind creating this alter ego, Mike Winett? Really, it was just the two-fold thing really. I was demonstrating how easy it was to create a fake persona online and show you that if I can do it and actually get bookings for demotivational talks which have never happened anyone can. And the funny thing about it was I started getting testimonials and reviews for my talks that had never happened. So people would say that they'd been there and I'd changed their life or some of my words, how would they affect with them and stuff. But none of these events had ever happened. And I wasn't asking for these reviews or testimonials. Wait, so you never did any talks? That's just all fake.

I've never done one. I've never done one. But I get books. People contact me every week ask me if I can do one. That's so funny. And this is what I'm saying. I'm doing this purely for fun. And I've not done one, I've never done one, but I get books, people contact me every week, ask me if I can do one. That's so funny. And this is what I'm saying, I'm doing this purely for fun, and I've not got a product to sell to you. Now imagine if I had a product where I think everybody can be successful in a millionaire, and I was selling it to you for $2,000.

I could easily use this for evil or bad, but I don't, I'm just showing you how, if I can do it and convince what you consider smart intelligent professional people that this is real, imagine if I was actually crafting targeted ads to you, if I was getting fake testimonials, video testimonials, going on stage and talking at an event saying about how these courses change all these people's lives, do you think I could make money from doing this? Yeah, definitely.

And is it ethical to do so? No. So now, this is where I think what I do is possibly misinterpret it. The people that probably think that I'm being negative and not very nice or mean or calling them out, I'm probably doing this to help them in a roundabout way, but also taking a piss out of them because if you stupid and you would fall for that stuff, anyway, then you deserve to be them in a roundabout way, but also taking a piss out of them, because

if you stupid and you were to fall for that stuff anyway then you deserve to be laughed at a little bit in my mind. Okay, so why the fake stage name? Like why don't you go under your name? Well, really, because when we sold our business, because I had a business with some of my friends, but when we sold that business, when you go through the sale, they hold back a certain amount of money, when you go through the sale, they hold back a certain amount of money and they have certain conditions linked to that. Now, I know how I talk online, even as my old name, didn't really align with how they wanted to say that business. So, for the sake of ring fencing that future payment that I was due, I thought it'd be better to remove any reference to my

old business and also change my surname so there was no link to the old company. So that's what I did. Got it. So your real name is Mike, just not Mike when it. Yes, it's the same first name, which is confusing sometimes. So for our listeners, is there any advice within that that they can take away? If they're working at a corporate job where it's looked down upon sometimes, even just have your own personal opinion or just not post about work

Would you advise that they might take a stage name instead if they wanted to either start a side hustle or Give whatever perspective that they feel like no, it's a stupid idea It's hard enough being one person without having to juggle two personas However a lot of these fakers do have an alter ego. They just openly admit it. So you've got all your people on there pushing these copy and paste motivational stories online, but that's all the persona that they've created. All these ultra successful back slapping groups that you see in engagement groups you see on LinkedIn, they've all got a fake persona online. They just won't admit that. So my advice would just be you. Stop trying

to jump on what other people seem to do and seem to get attention or seem to be successful. Everyone wants that done for you guys to success riches or creating an online brand. And if you're going to have to create an alter ego for your own personal brand, or you're going to have to outsource your personal brand, then you're missing a point completely, I think. If you're dull and boring, just be dull and boring. Don't try and be funny or try and create an online persona that's the opposite of that, because why would you do that? It's like almost be comfortable in what you are. Honestly, I'm like when it, when I'm not like when it, if that makes sense. It's almost just a name now. I've always called bullshit on this

kind of stuff. I did it when I used to have my own business. I called bullshit on the sector that I worked in, or the industry that I worked in. I still call bullshit on this kind of stuff. I did it when I used to have my own business, I'd call bullshit on the sector that I worked in, or the industry that I worked in. I still call bullshit on people on LinkedIn. I think really that's what you need to do. That's how you are really. You can live and die by those decisions. It's when you're creating this image. And then if you've got a meetup person in real life and they're not like that, it's a disappointment. And then you feel ripped off or let down or disappointed. So I wouldn't say create an alter ego, just be yourself.

And if yourself is funny, be funny. If yourself is a bit out there and a bit left, it'll be a bit out there in that field. Okay, let's talk about before you were Mike Winett. You mentioned a few times that you co-founded a startup. And I'm sure that was a lot of hard work. And Elon Musk himself has described starting a company to be like eating, glass, and staring into the biz.

That doesn't sound very fun. So what was your startup experience like? Mine was a bit different to Elon's. He started off with no hair and got hair at the end of all his businesses and success. So I started off with hair and I started to lose mine. So my tail towards compared to his is completely different. But I'd worked in startups for 10 years until it's all five years for other people.

And then I felt like I'd learn enough to kind of do this on my own. But I would say it's not for everyone. I enjoy and thrive in that sort of chaos and uncertainty. But I don't think many people do, or not everyone can thrive in that environment. So if you think hand on heart, you have the drive determination

and you're willing to risk not getting a regular wage and living in dying by solely your decisions, because that's a big thing. Most people always look for an excuse, and it'll work, it'll be, well, I've not done that because I don't like a boss or I don't like my co-workers, or I didn't get that sale because of price or whatever.

You can't use that bullshit excuse when you're on boss, it's you eat what you kill. You've got no money coming in, you've got no investors. If you wanted to do it the way I did it. And then you have to make a product, get it out there and sell it as soon as possible. Because if you don't, they're taking a house off you

or you can't pay your bills. So if you're willing to do that, live by your own decisions, have no scapegoats, no excuses, sure try it, I'd say it's worth it. But a lot of these people that turn up to these shows looking for that one secret ingredient that they're missing or that next life hack or business hack to be successful. I don't bother doing this stuff. There's no point. Just be happy with getting the best salary you can get as guaranteed. Because in that environment, you're probably going to earn more than what you would,

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Setting up my Shopify store just took me a few days. I didn't have to worry about my website and how I was going to collect payments and how I was going to trigger abandoned cart emails and all these things that Shopify does for me was just a click of a button even setting up my chat bot was just a click of a button. It was so easy to do. Like I said, just took a couple of days and so it just allowed me to focus on my actual product and making sure my LinkedIn masterclass was the best it could be, and I was able to focus on my marketing. So Shopify really, really helped me make sure that my masterclass was gonna be a success

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Shopify.com-profiting, all lowercase. This is Possibility powered by Shopify. Well, I think you know, if you've gone to your fifth Tony Robbins event and you're still not set up your own business or you've still not started your own side or so, that life's not for you. So save yourself in $10,000 that you spend every year to go and see him and put it into some panels, put it into stocks and shares, put it into the bank account, put it into property. You're not going to be an entrepreneur or a success in your own company or setting up your own business. You're not gonna be that thing. So I don't know necessarily what I can say there

to say how do you know you won't be. You do know. Some people do this because they think they have to. Other people do it because they know deep inside and that this is something that they can do and they are gonna do and they're not gonna stop. And they will do the hundred hour work weeks, stuff like that that's needed.

And they will sacrifice a salary and they will risk it for the longer term reward. But if you've got a question mark against any of those things, then what's the point, don't bother. Okay, so one of the things that I heard you talk about that I thought was really interesting is that you believe that if you start a business, you need a clear exit strategy

and that there's a big difference between creating a business and creating a job for yourself. I think this is an important lesson. Yeah, so especially with a lot of these things where if you create an online group and it could be an online group where you post content every day and it is the whatever group it might be,

it's the Mike Winnet Marketing Group or it might be the Mike Winnet Property Company. And I've got a little Property Group on Facebook and every day I'm going on there and I'm doing the content and then I'm doing all these shows. All I'm doing there is creating a job for myself and I am sacrificing my own time for money. So all I've done there is creating myself a job. Creating a job for business is where you can remove yourself from that environment and it can run and make money and you can do other things. And that's just an example on social media.

There's other examples where you could have a beauty salon and you could be a beauty therapist there. But if you're there working the most hours in that business and if you go on holiday, the business doesn't run effectively or it doesn't make any money, again, you've just created a job for yourself, which is cool if that's what you want. It's just, I think a lot of people confuse having their own business with being self-employed, if that makes sense. Yeah. How do you suggest that we create a business that can be sold?

Well, I always say start with the ending in minds. Like, what do you actually want? Because you'd be amazed how many people haven't got a clue what they want. So I was very clear in what I wanted. I target was 10 million pounds and it was in three years. So every decision we made was to make that possible. And we just backwards plans from that. So it makes every decision easier. Do we hire that person? Yes, we do because that helps get closer to 10 million in three years. Do we do that piece of work? Well, no, while it might appeal to you in the short term because it was a big piece of work or it was worth a lot of money, does it help you get to your end goal? Well, no, well, well, we won't do that work then. You don't go and chase the shiny objects. You stay focused on that goal. So I always say back to the point. If you want to sell a business of £10 million, you've got to think, how do I make it worth that for a start? Who could potentially buy it? How do I get on their radar from the off? How do I let them know that it's something we're interested in? What would my product need to look like or how would it complement potential buyers products?

These are all things that you have to think about But if you're just thinking about should I go leaflet dropping around my local area? You're not thinking of the bigger picture Well, you know the answer to that if that's going to help you get to your goal because you know what you click on is, I don't think people think about this enough at all. Some people are two, three, four years into their business, but they haven't got an actual clue where they're going or what they want, but we were and I was very, very clear in what I needed to do, so that made price in easy, because if you want $10 million, let's just say you can

either sell one product for $10 million, you can sell 10 products for $10 million, let's just say you can either sell one product for $10 million, you can sell 10 products for $1 million. You can work out your numbers, then you can work out your numbers, and you've got an end date in mind. You can say, well, how many of these do we need to sell per month to get that goal? And then if you can look at potentially who could buy us, you can decide, well, do I want to create competitive tension with that potential buyer? So they buy us because they want to protect their own business, or do you think,

well, shall we be friends that company so we can complement their product? And they might buy us out because it complements that product. So all these things are things that we thought of in week one, two, and three. Now, how many people think about this in week one, two, and three of a business?

I would guess probably less than 10%. But if you do that, you've got a clear goal of where you're going and what you're doing. It's so much easier. So if your side hustle is making, I don't know, picture frames on Instagram, news flash, you're not going to sell that business for $10 million. So don't have that goal, but you might say,

if I can do $100,000 a year, I'm happy. Well, cool, that's now your end goal. Work backwards from that, how many frames do you need to make? OK, can you physically do that yourself? No, so you'll need to employ someone, how much will that cost? So it makes all the decisions easier than I think in my business isn't hard, honestly. Business isn't hard if you follow the rules

and you're willing to put it in the graph. Yeah, I mean, I think that is exceptional advice. You actually just inspired me. I feel like I need to think about my angle. Oh, don't say that. No, no, don't say that. Hopefully I've demosivated you from doing this stuff. It's too hard.

Don't bother doing it. No, I'm a go-getter. I'm not worried. But that's what I'm saying. And this is kind of something that always gets put to be like, oh, well, some people just need encouragement. I don't think they do. It's like, if you're going to do this,

you do not need encouragement. If you are going to do this You aren't going to be demosivated by me or anybody else or the naysayers. You will go and do it But if you are easily swayed by these things then you aren't going to be successful. I'll be honest I'd never heard a Gary Vier a year ago as mad as that sounds. I've never heard of the guy I'd never heard of Grant Cardone a year ago. Never heard of these guys. I've never heard of Grant Cardone a year ago. I've never heard of these guys. I never watched these entrepreneurs

or these sort of celebrity business people on YouTube. Do you know why? I was too focused on my own shit to care what they were doing or saying. I just worked hard, did the things I thought were right and inevitably it turned out to be right. But I can name you hundreds of people I come into contact with

or speak to online that could quote every single Gary V episode or every single Grand Cardone quotes. But they don't do anything about it because they're too busy looking for that next thing and focusing on the next tip from an entrepreneur to actually work on their own shit. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think you actually found me from GaryVee and funny story about GaryVee. So everybody thinks I'm a huge fan of GaryVee, but I'm really not.

Like you, I didn't know about him last year. I just saw an opportunity to use automation to target his audience. And now every comment that I post on his posts, I'm like number one comment with a hundred likes, all this kind of stuff. So. So this is on Instagram.'re doing this on Instagram?

You're doing this on Instagram? On LinkedIn. Yeah, so I don't follow them on LinkedIn. He's not really his platform. Is it LinkedIn? He's more YouTube, he's more Instagram. He's more YouTube Instagram, but LinkedIn is my platform, so I've just been targeting on there.

This is if he own shares in his companies. I know, he's huge. You go and see him talk and what does he do? He tells you to go and put your money into what? Advertise on Instagram, advertising on Facebook. Yeah, that's true. But what you should always do when anyone's giving you any advice is follow the money. Why would someone give you that advice? Well, because he's got shares in them companies. So it's more people advertising on them things, the share price goes up, advertising becomes more expensive.

Did you know this? No. Now what you think. It's a good marketing strategy. If I own shares in a company and I could proactively talk to an audience of 3 million people a week and my advice to them was go and advertise on Instagram. Yeah, I own shares in that company or go and advertise on Facebook, but I own shares in that company and I know that the price to advertise on these platforms is gonna increase. Therefore, the share price will increase. Why am I giving this free advice to people? Follow the money.

Who gains from this information? And you'll be amazed by how many of these companies or how many of these people are involved in other companies and other things that you just sort of mean. Yeah. Well, I would say out of everybody, Gary Vee is probably the best motivational speaker. At least he does say real stuff.

And in my opinion, he's sort of like real as I've been like listening to his stories. He's not a entrepreneur, I don't think, compared to the other. No, I don't think he is. This is what I want to say. I've not got a proper goal these people. I think it's cool if you make your money and you're successful and you've got all the business. And if you look at Gary, you're successful and you've got all these businesses. If you look at Gary, the numbers show you that he's got multiple businesses and he makes money

doing all these things. But it's the ones I think are the next level below it. That's the one I've got the most problem with. And it's these almost like copy and paste or paint by numbers Gary V. That's they know, well Gary V signs up his video with a signature. So I'm going to do that. And then I'm going to sell a 1997 Instagram course, or I'm going to do this that in the other way. It's like, well, you're not doing the hard yards. You know what I mean? Gary V was doing this in 2006. If someone comes out the blue, you've never heard of three months ago, and then all of a sudden they're all over Instagram. They're all over Facebook with all these

accessories. You've got to ask, why? How is it true? Where have they got this money from? At least with certain people, you can see all I can see their story that they did have that business. That business was sold in 2008. That business was sold in 2011. They acquired that business in 2013. But I just think people are too lazy possibly

to actually go and look at any of these gurus that they all follow blindly. Yeah, and I think a big red flag is if they's certified 10x teacher, whatever they're calling them, like if you have to take somebody else's course and just regurgitate whatever they're selling, it's obviously a scam. Well, I had this year the day someone said to me without knowing any backgrounds, if you want to be successful, you should let me men saw you. So I said, cool, I'm down for it. You tell me the time in place and I will come and do it because I was thinking this will

make a great episode for the Contrapreneur. So I called him out and said, all right, I'm fine. Let's do it then. And then send him two messages. He didn't reply. And then filled in his website, he's still didn't reply. And I said, come on, let me be mentored by you and just let me film some of it. And again, he sent me a message now saying, oh, I don't want to do this. Sorry, blah, blah, blah. So why not? If it was legit, what you were doing, you'd be happy to. I would, if someone had come in and haven't filmed what we're doing this year for free, by all means do so, it'll save us having to buy videographers or pay videographers. You can come and film everything we do, because it's all real. And we're not selling you anything at the end of it. I'm not going to sell you

crypto mining rigs. I'm not going to sell you stocks and shares. I'm not going to sell you a three day bootcamp to how it's to invest in property in Spain. Yeah. We're not. It's just like this is what we've done. This is how much money we made or this is what we've done. This is how little money we made. There's no edge to it.

And that's the bit I think people can't get the red round. Let's take it back from before you had your startup company. You actually did work in corporate. You were, I think, at a bank early in your career. Yeah. You have a funny story about when you decided to leave and I think my listeners will get a kick out of it. Can you tell us that?

Yeah, so I worked for the bank and that is what your nan or your grandma would say was a job for life. It was a job that is well respected in the community. So I worked for one of is well respected in the community. So I worked for one of the big banks in the UK and on my fourth day there, my line manager had a broach on, like a pin badge, a certificate on the wall and he was looking through a catalogue and I asked him what he was doing and he said, I have been here for 30 years now, I'm allowed to pick anything I want from this catalogue. And I said, right, okay, what are you going to pick? And he picked

a law mother. And it just made me think 30 years service, the best 30 years of your life, you've dedicated your work the overtime, you've been through ups and downs in the bank, and you're rewarded with a law mother. And that was the day I decided to quit. So I was at the bank for four days and I quit and my dad couldn't believe it. And I said I'm not working for anyone for 30 years just to get a set on law. That's so funny. And he was happy with that by the way. He was happy with that. He was made up. Oh, I can't believe I can pick anything from this catalog. You know, we could have picked the clock. He could have picked set gold clubs, but no, no, he's settled for that

law moment. And I thought, now I can't be asked doing this. So you're an entrepreneur from basically, you're always an entrepreneur then if you only spent four days at a bank. I mean, I did all the jobs. I said, Trinone, it was. I just think like I've never ever felt that someone else can put a value on what I'm worth.

And I've just thought, well, I'll just do my own thing. Like now, I could easily just go get a job somewhere, I could easily do business mensoring, but I'd rather just do my own thing. Yeah. Well, it seems to have worked out. Awesome. So, let's talk about your community on LinkedIn. You've garnered a lot of fame.

You call yourself a LinkedIn influenza, a plan influencer. And so, tell us, how did you grow your LinkedIn network? So, I talk now the same way that I used to talk when I had a business. So I've only been on LinkedIn for years and for two of those years, it was pushing my own company. And I just made observation about what I thought was crap or wrong with LinkedIn, what I thought was rubbish about the industry that I worked in. And I just spoke or communicated on LinkedIn in the very same way that I do in real life. I never think something stupid, I'll say that stupid. If I think something is a bit wonky, I'll say it's wonky. I'm not really fussed

about that. And I had literally no filter. It's just, if I think that, I will say that. And it got a reaction from certain people. As if you can't talk like this because it's linked in but it's no why you change in the way you talk because it's linked in so I was just being myself and it just kind of grew arms and legs really some people used to like it some people used to not like it as the case maybe but it didn't really bother me I just stayed kind of real to who I am and what I am and just carried on making those observations, whether it be about business, life, or LinkedIn in general, and the influenza tag that I added, was obviously a play on words of being an influencer,

because all of a sudden they started popping up here there and everywhere with no sort of background, no sort of credibility, no qualifications. And so I was saying that they are spreading like a virus, but by using the word influenza, I would get corrected probably daily from idiots saying, oh, you don't even know how to spell influencer. And I just thought that was quite amusing

that people would constantly tell me stuff like that. It's like, oh, I didn't even realize. Yeah, and something else that's funny that you do on LinkedIn is that you mimic this broachy style that Josh Fetcher, who actually came on my show, Coined or started. And you do this, but then you talk about totally opposite things, your demotivational content. Yes, so Josh was one of the original ones to block me, actually.

So he was one of the inspirations behind this, because he is kind of the godfather of his absolutely ridiculous paint by numbers inspirational posts that will break the algorithm. He started a lot of that. He's got a BAMF media, which then can do these posts for you. Now, if you're outsourcing your posts and your social media to BAMF media, is it really a personal brand? Is it really you? No, it's just Josh and his team of, I don't know what you call them, like Buzwood, kind of, we probably just sit there, just be good, just sit and see them. So it's because you see the same story as being passed around the inspirational leaders that are in

the top voices on LinkedIn. You can tell a bunch of me to climb a mile off. I can, anyway, it's all exactly the same thing, but yes, so. Yeah, bam. If you're ready to take your business to New Heights, break through to the six or seven figure mark or learn from the world's most successful people, look no further because the Kelly Roach show has got you covered. Kelly Roach is a best-selling author, a top-ranked podcast host, and an extremely talented

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and energized already. They are really receptive to this framework, and I'm so happy because I really needed this class. With masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best anytime, anywhere, and at your own pace. And we all know that profiting in life doesn't just mean thriving in business.

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high quality. You can't beat it. Game new skills and as little as 10 minutes on your phone, your computer, tablet, smart TV, and my personal favorite way to learn is their audio mode to listen on the go. That way I can multitask while I learn. Get unlimited access to every class and right now as the app listener, you can get 15% off when you go to masterclass.com slash profiting. That's masterclass.com slash profiting for 15% off an annual membership. Masterclass.com slash profiting for 15% off an annual membership masterclass.com slash profiting. Basically, it was kind of a piss take off. Josh and his style because it's so obvious

the way it's written and on a question and on a gray start with an opening line. It's so basic. It's so basic. I can't believe people can't write down themselves. Number one, or I can't think of a way to write, which is more engaging than that style. So first of all, I love Josh. Oh, I don't mind him, but I don't mind him. I think he's the smart one. It's everybody else who's stupid. It's not his fault that everybody else falls for it. Yeah, cool. No, I get that. I get that 100%. It's cool that he does that. And everybody needs a dance partner, don't they? And mine was just Josh for about two weeks before he took his

ball home and stopped playing. But it's cool because I've got another like 15 of his clients to go after. Oh, God. And they all blocked me. And they all report me to LinkedIn. And they all try and get me, but then they say, you've copied my post, but I've not copied your post. If you read the words, I've changed your post. You want to be more concerned with the people that are in your engagement, politics that have copied your post word for word. I don't see you complaining about them. So when LinkedIn getting in touch with me to try and say, we've had a complaint from Bridget or we've had a complaint from Oleg, we've had a complaint from Tim Denning or Michael Chapman or any of these online characters.

But by the way, check their backgrounds and let's see if they really have hired a different person every day. Because if you notice, they always seem to hire people that are ill equipped for the job. Every single day, now what company in the world could employ 300 people a year that can't do the job, that aren't qualified to do the job, that haven't got shoes on their feet, that turned up late to interview,

savage by a shark on the bus on the way to the interview. Because we all know that's bullshit, don't we? So if you've got a company, but 300 hires in there, and they're all your best hire ever, because that's how they all end. Number one, you're hiring is rubbish. You need to get a new hiring manager.

The company wouldn't make money because you've got no one in there that can actually do the job that they're employed for. If you've got someone working in admin that is never done admin before, you've got someone in there doing sales, it's never done sales before, you've got someone in there that's got no arms and legs and he's driving the bus to get to work, it's not going to work, is it? So it's so obvious, it's fake, and I'm just amazed at the brand-ed sheet for the click like, but then obviously it doesn't really happen

as much now, so that's why we created the engagement pods. And they all like each other's content. So if you look at all these posts, it's the same 75 people that come in on them first, and it'll always be amazing story, so inspiration. It's almost like they're told what's a comment as well, which I know if you're in, say, Michael's engagement pod, he does pretty much tell you what's supposed on them. And I know this because that's the pod I have the most trouble with. Okay, wait, so explain this engagement pod more. Yeah, so an engagement pod is when a group of like-minded individuals get

together and say, look, the content we post is pretty shit and no one engages with it. So why don't we all like each other's content? And then LinkedIn's algorithm will think it's popular and then they'll push that content out to more people. So we'll get seen by more and more people. But they all label themselves authentic or honest and all this kind of thing. And they've got this fake persona whether or really nice on the surface. However, once you're in that part, if you don't like so-and-so's part quick enough for you, don't make the right comment or you disagree with that part, then they threaten to kick you out, and then they threaten you with where your content's not gonna get seen anymore.

So I know people in their part, they're almost held hostage, but the ironic thing about it is, they claim to be authentic and genuine and posting content that's good, yet they rely on the pods for that content to be pushed. So if anything, you're making your own platforms, they're right up, and it's not authentic. If your content is only boosted or seen

because it's unauthentically boosted, is that authentic content? So there's the iron, isn't it? Yeah, they would say that they've made LinkedIn a better place, but know what you've actually done is someone here that's not in a pod could write the best piece ever, the most honest and open piece of content today, and put it on LinkedIn, and it could be a real tale of a genuine, higher that the underdog has done really, really well and blossomed since they've been employed. But no one's going to see that content. Why? Because we've got Tony, who's also by me or Lacey, his wife, or Tim Denning, posted some absolute drivel that's then

liked by a hundred people in their pot within two minutes, and then that gets forced into all of our feeds. Now that's not authentic. That's not genuine, and news flash. You've not written that, but one of Josh Fetch's minions has written that for you. So you've not even hired that person.

And I'm talking to people like Liz Ryan here. They all know, because I parody their posts all the time. What I've done is, which kind of made my sort of name with really is, I've just took their look at me and I am amazing type story and I've made it into a look at me and I am really bad boss, but I'm not self aware if that makes sense. So I think it's amazing advice that I'm giving you, but really I'm a really bad boss like when I say stuff like hire women because there's a gender wage gap so you can save money on your business

and stuff like that. And that's all I do. I just take their good news stories and their fake inspirational stories and just turn them into unhappy and demotivational stories. I'm just taking the piss out of them really. And I'm taking the piss out of how easy it is

to create that all I'm so in a, this contrapener, get rich or die, buying series that I'm taking the piss out of how easy it is to create that all I'm so and this contrappin' to get ritual die buying series that I'm doing now on YouTube investigating these passive income streams has only really been born out of having time on my hands and realizing that I might as well do something positive or good with the might when it carries a rather than just continually calling out individuals for posting crap bank media posts. Well, I'm not taking sides, I like both of you. and just continually calling out individuals for posting crap-bump media posts. Well, I'm not taking sides.

I like both of you. No, but like I said, you know, like he and I had skeletons all, didn't he? Yeah. Batman had the Joker. So Mike, when it wouldn't work if there wasn't this stuff on there, if I had nothing to parody,

then what would I be doing? Yeah, speaking of your parody, do you ever worry that what you're doing is kind of discouraging people who might just need a little bit of positivity or do you really feel that if you're doing is kind of discouraging people who might just need a little bit of positivity or do you really feel that if you need positivity or motivation then you're not going to be anything anyway. Yeah, it's like you should be self-motivated. There must be something inside you that makes you do things. If you're looking on LinkedIn for a post by a self-appointed Australian inspirational leader that has a hashtag brains over boobs,

you need to really readjust your mindset. If you're watching videos by people like that for a little bit of inspiration, then you've got it all wrong. You should be motivated by, I don't know, your kids or your financial situation or your social status or whatever, it should be inside as a motivator.

Here's one, look at the world's most wealthy people. And I'm talking about the top 0.1%. How many of them do you think are on YouTube or Instagram or LinkedIn looking for a motivational meme or a good news story to motivate them for the day? They don't give a fuck, they don't care. They are out there motivated to be successful. The problem aren't even in Instagram. They're definitely not pushing a course for 1997.

They're definitely not asked about likes and followers. They don't care about any of this stuff. So if you look at what we are force fed, it's not what the very, very successful and ultra-rich people do. They don't do any of this stuff. They're not watching YouTube videos about the 10x Grovescon for three hours a night, rather than actually doing stuff about it. Okay, something that you say pretty often is action versus the law of attraction. So can you explain this thinking? Yeah, you can put all you want on your vision board, but if you're not going to do anything about it, nothing's going to happen.

That's it in a nutshell. What uses a vision board if you're not going to do anything about it? You've actually got to take positive, proactive steps to make them things happen. So it requires action to achieve things, just sitting there hoping it's going to happen and putting a few pictures on your vision board

isn't going to make things happen. But that's what you'll get. That's what you and putting a few pictures on your vision board isn't gonna make things happen. But that's what you'll get. That's what you get from a lot of people. So that's what I would say that the law of attraction is bullshit. The law of action is far more powerful. Yeah, I think the law of attraction puts you in the state of mind,

but then you actually have to do something about it. Nothing's just gonna fall in your lap because you're thinking about it. But that bit's the hard bit, isn't it? Yeah. That bit is the hard bit. It's easy to find that picture of that Malibu house and cut bit, isn't it? Yeah. That bit is the hard bit. It's easy to find that picture of that Malibu house and cut it out or print it out and

then put it on your whiteboard. But what is your actual plan to get that? What are you doing today to make that happen? Where are you going to be in 90 days? Where are you going to be in 120 days? Where are you going to be in five years time? But that bit is too hard. But having your little vision board on your desk at work, so your colleagues say, oh,

wow, you go into the Tony Robbins event, or all that's interesting, you're gonna have plastic surgery or whatever. But how do them things happen if you don't go and do something about it? Yeah. Just say what I mean. People are always trying to get rich,

people are always trying to lose weight and people will always look for shortcuts for them things. So there will always be people willing to part with cash to find out a shortcut or a lazy person's way of doing it. But there are guaranteed results that will help you get these things, but they are hard to do. And that's why most people don't do them. What's the stat? Is it one in 500 people a millionaires? I'm not positive.

I think it might be that. So just take base on that number. Say if there's 30,000 people at a Grand Cardone Convention and Grand Cardone saying, you can all do it. Well, the stats tell me that you're telling me you're lying, Grand. You're talking bullshit. But of course, you tell us we can all do it because you need to sell 30,000 seats at this event. Honestly, if I had a product that I could sell to these people and I was happy doing it and unethical enough to push that product, I would tell every single idiot I come across, you can definitely be a millionaire. Definitely just buy this course and I'll teach you in three days.

So speaking of financial goal, with your whole mic when it character all the stuff that you're doing, do you have an end goal in mind? No, no, it's just literally at the end of it. I'm happy to dead the character once I've done this garage or die by in series. Once I've done that and hopefullyrich or die-by-in series. Once I've done that and hopefully people can then see and they can make an informed decision whether these passive income streams

are as lucrative as they're promised by these people that are selling them, then I'll just go and do other things. Because like I said, I do have genuine investments that work. And by the way, if these passive income streams genuinely work, I will just continue doing that, but I just won't really document it anymore. That's awesome. Why commend you on what you're doing. It's very interesting. You're very entertaining. It was so nice to have you on the show. Where can we find out more about you and do you have any other companies on the horizon or real books that you're going to put out?

Yeah, so the actual book that you mentioned, so the Contra Penetra was a book that I actually started to write, and we were 75% of the way through writing it, and when we spoke to publishers, we realized that we didn't even like what they were telling us. So the publisher was telling me how they could make me an Amazon best seller. And again, it's a con. What you do is you pick a niche that's really easy to sell in, because there's not much competition. You drop your price to 99p.

You sell that book at 99p for 48 hours, you sell 200 books and guess what? You're an Amazon best seller. And I said, no, no, I want to be an Amazon best seller because I've sold thousands and thousands of books and made a lot of money to be selling the book. I don't want to make 99p off 200 books. I can't be asked writing a book for that. But you'll see people lap that up because they want to say that they're a best seller in all the, because then it means that they can then go on stage and then they've then got the credibility. So even that just made me think, geez, I'm trying to write a book called The Contrippin' Earth.

And now you're telling me a contrappin' it away to be coming to best selling. I don't want that. So I just sack the book off completely. And then I thought, so what can I use the word for? Because I quite like the word. And I thought, well, why don't we just turn it to instead of sort of targeting people on LinkedIn, which was the original premise for the word. And I thought, well, why don't we just turn it to, instead of sort of targeting people on LinkedIn, which was the original premise for the book, how you can easily create a fake persona and grow it online.

Why don't we actually look at the schemes and scams and passive income streams and then turn it into a series and put it on YouTube and just make it free for everyone. So that is what I'm doing. But in terms of actual companies, I've got a property investment company that I've got some of my investments in. And I've also got a production company that I've co-founded with

one of my old business partners from the online training company that we sold in 2017. So I've got two genuine companies, but they're not like public or what we call them like customer facing. They're just like stuff that I do my own thing through. So you can find me on LinkedIn, which is Mike Winnett. It's sometimes a bit hard to find me as LinkedIn, make it difficult to find me on there. I'm on YouTube, which is the main place to find all this contraption of content we're gonna be uploading. And also, we've started to upload some of the

Josh Fetcher inspired humble brags. I've started to animate them as well. So instead of just putting them out in written format on LinkedIn, I'm also turning them into cartoons. So you can see them, they're on sub-feminism in the workplace, equality, diversity, work-life balance, mum-pronours. So they're all subjects that are worth watching. It's all done in Mike Winnitz now. They're quite funny. And then we've also got the Instagram page, which is also Mike Winnitz on Instagram. Instagram awesome this was such a funny conversation I'm so happy you came on the show and I hope we keep in touch cool thank you

thanks for listening to Young & Profiting podcast follow up on Instagram at Young & Profiting and check us out at youngandproffiting.com and now you can chat live with us every single day on our new Slack channel check Check out our show notes or youngenproperin.com for the registration link. And if you're already active on YAHPS ID, share the wealth and invite your friends. You can find me on Instagram at YAHP et Haala or LinkedIn, just search my name, Haala Taha.

And a huge thanks to our international YAHP team. My partner in crime, Timothy Tan, producers Stephanie Shiv and his sham, our audio producer Danny McFatter, marketing manager steeps, and her promotions team Kayla and Parth, our web manager Christian and project manager Ryan, and last but not least our YAP Society on Slack team Nicholas and Julien. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project.

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