Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - Replay: The Cubicle to CEO Podcast - Podcast Growth Tips You Won't Hear Anywhere Else

Episode Date: January 28, 2022

Hala reveals her top podcasting tips and tricks that she has never shared before on The Cubicle to CEO Podcast! Today’s case study features how Hala Taha grew a #1 podcast that generates 6-figures a year. Ellen Yin has been a podcast host in the space for two years now, but Hala shares unique tested podcast growth strategies no-one has heard anywhere else, so you are in for a treat! Hala transparently shares industry insights like the exact rates sponsors are willing to pay, how much she charges for ad spots and client packages, plus creative ways to monetize your show. Sponsored by -  Athletic Greens - Visit athleticgreens.com/YAP and get FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. Real Vision - Visit realvision.com/yap and join Real Vision for just $1! BrandCrowd - Check out brandcrowd.com/yap to learn more, play with the tool for free, and get 73% off your purchase.   Jordan Harbinger - Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations. Social Media:   Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Follow Hala on Clubhouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Source. Taxes and other fee still apply. You're listening to YAP, Young and Profiting Podcast. A place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession

or industry. There's no fluff on this podcast and that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors. Our subject matter ranges from enhancing productivity, had to gain influence, the art of entrepreneurship,

and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button, because you'll love it here at Young & Profiting Podcast. Hey, Young & Profitors, and welcome to a replay episode on Young & Profiting Podcast. Today we'll be sharing my guest appearance interview on the cubicle to CEO podcast hosted by Ellen Yinn. I know so many of my listeners are podcasters, and those podcasters who follow me

are always curious to know how I grew and monetized my show. I went on this podcast with Ellen, and I revealed some tips and tricks that I've never shared before. So I'm super excited to be able to replay this episode for all you wanna be podcasters, or newer podcasters who listen to YAP and are looking to grow and monetize your own shows.

And I have some exciting news. I just launched a new podcast network called The YAP Media Network, which aims to grow and monetize middle-sized shows. So if you reach over 5K downloads or more per episode on your podcast, or have a smaller podcast with a large social media or YouTube following DM me on Instagram at Yapp with Hala

and let me know you're interested to learn more about the network. Without further ado, here's the replay of my guest appearance on the cubicle to CEO podcast. Hey, Hala, we are so excited to have you on the show. If you guys have not heard of Holly before, she is the podcast host of Young and Profiting, an incredible show, the number one education podcast,

actually, which leads us to the case study that we're going to be diving into today. But, Holly, before we talk about that, for those who don't know, you can you quickly share your cubicle to CEO story. Sure, so I started a young and profiting podcast as a side hustle. I was working in corporate marketing first at Hewlett Packard and then at Disney Streaming Services. So I started a young and profiting podcast about three and a half years ago, totally as a side hustle, totally as a way

to just give back. I never thought I would make money from the show. And, you know, I quickly recruited a volunteer team. They were actually fans who listened to my show. And I had 10 people helping me build the show for a couple of years. And then it really took off about two years ago. And, you know, now we're a number one podcast across all apps. And I started a marketing agency

and I quit my full-time job in February 2020. And by the time I quit my job, I had 35 employees who already worked for me and the company. Wow, what an incredible story. So interesting that you quit your job right before the pandemic hit, right, right, before the whole world really shifted.

And I didn't know that when you first started your show that your team was comprised of volunteers. I think that's very unique. I know this is not related to the case study, but I just have to ask how did you get in touch with these loyal listeners and bring them on a staff. Did they reach out to you or were you able to find them and propose this idea to them? Yeah, so they all reached out to me. When I first put out my podcast, I had come with a lot of experience. I originally worked at Hot 97 and I used to intern for Angie Martinez and throughout my years, you know, before I worked in corporate and when I was an entrepreneur myself, I had many online radio shows. So I started out the gate with a lot of experience and my show was amazing.

A lot of people say like, I can't even listen to my first episode at some very thing. I'm like, take a listen to my first episode. It's amazing. I had three months to work on it. It's a masterpiece. And so people loved my show. And honestly, sometimes I feel like my fans were stronger back then. Like they were obsessed with my show and were sometimes I feel like my fans were stronger back then. Like they were obsessed with my show and we're like, we need to get the word out. And I had this like fan group on Slack, like 300 members were like really obsessed with my show. And so they would just DM me on LinkedIn and say, Hey, all the like, I saw your show.

I want to get the word out. How can I help? Can I intern for you? Can you teach me how to do this? Can I make videos for you? Can I build your website? I just want to help you. And so I had a guy from Estonia who was building my website. I had a guy from Atlanta who was doing my videos.

I had my business partner now who went to my same undergrad, but it's like eight years younger than me. He was working on my graphics and my logo and my social. And so it's like, we all just were in a Slack group and I was just teaching people how I would do it. And like I said, I never thought this would make money. We just had a very pure mission and I think people were really attracted to that. They knew that I was just really genuine wanting to help people and wanting to help other people elevate and become successful. And I think people were really attracted to that pure mission.

In fact, I think that motivating a volunteer group is actually easier than paid employees because paid employees feel like entitled and then they're like, it's, it was, I always say that it was easier to manage my volunteers, so I never paid a dime than it is like with paid employees. I think a lot of that has to do with when you volunteer for something, whether it was your volunteer staff for your show or whether, you know, you're just volunteering for your favorite and nonprofit, doing work that gives you purpose as a human being like outside of needing to work in exchange to live or to pay bills, right? I think it's a very different mindset. You're like you said, it's truly mission driven and you're

really bought into the greater good. So to speak, and so I can see why that was so powerful and so incredible that you were able to launch your show with such a loyal fan base, which I'm sure played a lot into how your podcast grew so quickly. I think I saw a stat that in 2020, I believe you had already reached 500,000 lifetime downloads in less than two years of launching the show. So I'm gonna know, did you notice a steady growth from the time you launched your show

to where you are now, or was it a little bit more of like a flat line growth? And then all of a sudden, there was a large spike that just shot you through the roof. It was totally hockey stick growth. It was totally flat. For so many months, I was, you know, 3000 to 7,000 downloads a month.

They would like, sort of go up. And then, you know, it really just turned up and it was like literally like hockey stick growth straight up line. Even till today, it's still like a straight up line. Now we're getting like 500,000 downloads like in a month. Like, so it's like, it's totally different and it just keeps growing and growing

and that's the beauty of like being consistent because if I had let go of this dream a year and a half in and been like, you know what, we're just flat growth, like screw it, I was mission driven and so it didn't matter to me whether there was 10 people or 100,000 people listening to the show. I always, like I said, my purpose wasn't to make money off the show. It just happened to be an outcome of the dedication that we put into it. So like I said, it really just skyrocketed.

And really that the key was that I got really creative and I changed my mindset. So in the beginning, I was trying to push people from LinkedIn, which was my main platform to my podcast, and I would always focus on Apple. And I would always give people my Apple link, and I was obsessed with ranking on Apple and reviews on Apple. And that's all I cared about. And then I stepped back and I was like, you know what, we're not growing.

And if we want to continue doing this, I want to pay my team and how can we grow? And so I decided that I had this platform to leverage LinkedIn and that there was all these other players in the market. And we're really creative and scrappy. So the same outreach strategies that we used for our guests, I took my team and I said, hey, let's find all the podcast players. Let's get all the contact information we can find.

Let's reach out to these people, introduce ourselves, see if there's any cross-promotion opportunities, and I'll promote them on my LinkedIn if they promote me in their app, because I want to be visible to all these app users outside of Apple, outside of Spotify. So now, for example, I'm like the number one, one of the number one podcasters on Castbox. I have a hundred and eighty thousand followers and two million downloads just on that platform. And that's because they've been sponsoring me for like, they sponsored me for like a year straight because I was like the first podcaster that reached out to them and said like, Hey, like, I want to work with you. And so

they were like, your stuff is really good. We'd love to, to share your stuff because it retains our listeners and you're promoting us. So it was like a win-win situation. And so I did that and I just replicated that with Stitcher and player of them and podcastry public and all these other apps, whereas now I'm the number one education podcast across all apps. If you go look at my Apple, I'm not the biggest podcast on Apple.

I rank pretty high, but I'm not the biggest podcast on Apple, I'm the biggest podcast across all apps. And so my success was changing my mindset and realizing that I can change the industry and I don't need to follow the lead of anybody else. I created my own lane and decided that just because I can't break through on Apple doesn't mean I can't be a successful podcaster. After I did that strategy, we literally went from three thousand downloads a month to 50 3000 downloads a month to 50,000 downloads a month to 100,000.

And like I said, straight up line. And then I got on the cover podcast magazine and just kept thinking of creative strategies to grow my show. Incredible. So we've had quite a few guests on the show before talking about podcasting different aspects, right? Pitching yourself for podcasts, starting a podcast. And podcast growth is such an interesting conversation because I think a lot of people say the same things over and over.

You're the first person that I have interviewed on the show, but also just had a casual conversation with who really thought outside the box. And I like that you said for you, it was about not following the playbook of what's always been done, but instead looking and saying, okay, if growth is so hard on Apple podcasts because there's so much, you know, competition here, how can I think outside the box and look at some of the other apps that have active users, but have active users who maybe not are who are not tuned into podcasts at the moment. So that's really, really interesting. When you reached out to these different apps, were you reaching out directly to the CEOs,

the owners, the leadership team, or did you kind of, I guess, infiltrate from the bottom up and just connect with a team member? It's a really great question. So essentially, I asked the team to look for marketing roles. So partnerships was like a keyword, marketing coordinator, CMO, marketing director. Anybody who had to do with marketing or partnerships

is somebody who I wanted the team to contact. The other thing is I had them go on their website and see like a lot of these apps have information like that. So with Castbox specifically, they had a page that was soliciting for Twitter influencers. Now I wasn't a Twitter influencer, but I had a LinkedIn following. So I just contacted the same email that was soliciting Twitter influencers and was like, hey, like, I don't have a big Twitter

following, but I'm huge on LinkedIn. Like, do you guys want to talk? And they were totally into it, you know, and then it turned into this whole thing that really just pushed my career to the next level. And then same thing, my hosting provider, that's another clue. Do you have a hosting provider? They want to, they want to promote their, their in house podcast. So if you have a growing podcast, I had pod bean at the time. So I reached out to pod bean and then they started sponsoring me and pushing my episodes. And so I just leveraged what I had. That's the key. It's being creative, it's being scrappy in terms of finding that email contact, having the courage to email them, having the

courage to ask. And then having something in return, that's the key. The thing is that I did have something to leverage. I had an enormous active LinkedIn community that I had grown. And that was by chance. I started LinkedIn to promote my podcast, but it turned lot of people on LinkedIn that were just like, you know, not listening to podcasts yet or didn't want to take that step or or or go the extra mile. They just wanted to see my clips of my podcast. They didn't necessarily want to listen to the whole thing. So I was like, I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it.

I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to podcasts yet or didn't want to take that step or or go the extra mile. They just wanted to see my clips of my podcast. They didn't necessarily want to listen

to the whole thing. So I was like, okay, I've got this community to leverage. And how can I trade it with other people who want that audience? And so it's just trading audiences. That's how you have to think. So if you're out there and you're a podcaster, you need one platform to leverage. And so I parlayed LinkedIn into growing my podcast following into growing my clubhouse following into now growing Instagram. So don't be so scatterbrained where you're focusing on so many different channels and you can't grow any of them. Just focus on one that you can then leverage. I think that's really smart advice. I consider myself a marketing minimalist

and I teach that same concept of, look, if you can be a dominant player on one platform and really focus your impact when you do one thing better, rather than many things just so, so is so much greater. And I would love to just go back for a second to your partnership with Castbox. Because I'm not familiar with Castbox. And I'm sure there are some listeners as well who may not be familiar with the platform. So to help us get an insight look into

your head and how you creatively structure this partnership. When you first reached out to them, I know you said that they didn't have like a podcast necessarily segment that they were promoting. So what what first of all, what does Castbox do? Like what was that app intended for originally? And then how did you show your value in terms of your ability to give back to Castbox? Like were you saying I'm gonna drive more users

to your app or like how did you structure that offer? Yes, great question. So first of all, CastVox is a podcast player. So the way that the market works in the podcast world is that there's about 70 different podcast players that are IAB certified, meaning that they are registered and whatever plays that you get count towards sponsorships. So there's Apple, which is the biggest,

but it's really only 20 to 30% of people. Then it's Spotify, which is just about the same size. Then it's Castbox. Then it's Overcast. Then it's Player FM and all these different, and there's about 70 different apps that only have really the sole purpose of people downloading the app and listening to podcasts.

Sometimes their web players, you know, Player FM is primarily on the web. Sometimes their apps that you download a lot of the times they're they're optimized for Android because the Google Play apps sucks or a lot of people think that the iPhone Apple podcast app stinks. So it's like, they've they've come out to be like a new solution for podcasts listeners, depending on what device they have. And just in general, because there's lots of podcasts listeners and, you know, Apple, like, hasn't been innovating. So like, a

lot of these apps are trying to take market share from Apple and from Spotify and things like that. So basically, it's just other players. And that's what really, like, changed the game for me is when I realize that, like, hey, it's not just all about Apple. And also, Apple rankings aren't the only thing that matters. There's something called chartable. If you're a podcaster, you should know about this platform. And essentially, it will rank your podcast across all apps. So when I say on the number one education podcast

across all apps, what I mean is on the chartable charts, I'm always ranking number one in education. So even those big podcasts that are on Apple, like Lewis House or whatever, I've ranked higher than them across all apps in terms of my numbers of downloads. So so that's that's a little bit of a breakdown in terms of like the industry of podcast players and what they call user agents in the podcast world. And in terms of like how I structured the deal with Castbox, first I just said, here's a little bit about me.

I'm the number one podcaster on LinkedIn. I get this many views, I get this many impressions, this many likes. I'd love to help on a call and figure out how we can collaborate. Then I hopped on a call with our marketing team and I gave them ideas like, hey, I'll do a review contest. So that's the first thing that we did.

I said, I'll tell my followers that I'm on Castbox. And if they write me a review on your platform and subscribe on your platform and take a screenshot, they'll, you know, win some sort of giveaway. And so we did like a giveaway with Castbox where people entered a contest. They had to engage on the Castbox platform. They were really happy. And the payoff for me is that they promoted me in their app. So they put like featured banners of me in their app. When somebody onboarded on their app, I was automatically subscribed.

They would send push notifications to their users so that people would see my episodes. And so it's just like figuring out things. And then like, you know, I've done clubhouse events for them. I've done podcast commercials for them. It's just always ever changing and basically every quarter I say, here are the deliverables I'll do.

This is what I'm hoping you could do. Can you get me this many subscribers? And we kind of just have an exchange of deliverables and then align to it. And then sometimes it's changing where like for example, they'll say, we can't promote you in the US now, but we can promote you internationally.

And then we figure out what that means in terms of the visibility that I give them because my value keeps increasing. And then we just collaborate that way. So that's what I do with all the different players. Nowadays, we actually have budget to do media buying, but this is what I did before I had the budget. And most of the upcoming podcasters

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All right, we're back for another lightning round with how I'm going to shoot three questions your way. 30 seconds or less, give me whatever answer pops into your head. Ready? Sure. Okay, question number one, what ingredients would go on your perfect sandwich?

Oh my gosh, what increase would go on my perfect sandwich? Shoot my gosh, what a grease would go on my perfect sandwich. Shoot, I feel like I never make sandwiches. Right now, I would put avocado with salt and pepper on my perfect sandwich. Mm. Can't go wrong with avocado, always a good choice. Okay, question number two, what is currently your phone screen saver or background? Oh, that's a picture of mine, me and my dad, my dad passed away and made 2020. Right when I started my company, my dad passed away.

Oh, wow. Well, Guardian Angel watching all of your success. I think what if my success has to do with him? That's amazing. I love that. Okay, question number three, what is one important skill you believe every person should have? And this doesn't have to be related to business, but if it is, that's sort of cool too. I'm going to have to say writing. One thing that I've learned as a CEO is that people really have terrible writing skills. And I'm really good at writing because I had a blog when I was younger. And so I wrote like 2000 blogs. And I think that gave me like a crash course and had a blog when I was younger and so I wrote like 2000 blogs and I think that gave me like a crash course and had a right engaging copy and I think it also helped me with my podcast but man people don't know how to write people in college don't know how to write that is like the number one thing that's hard to find and honestly I've got a lot of employees in the Philippines and they literally write better than my US grad no offense to anybody on the acting, I love everybody, but like literally,

like there's like a lack of writing skills happening in America right now. So it's like learn how to write. If you know how to write, you can pitch an email, you can write a podcast like whatever it is, but like you can write engaging social copy. It's so important now when everything is digital. You've got to know how to write and write engaging copy.

I could not agree with you more on this answer, Hala. I really believe that if you are an excellent writer, even if you enter into an industry with which you have no experience, it allows you to be an effective communicator and to persuade people to believe in you. And I just, I think that's so smart. And I love, I mean, I won't go into it too much because this is lightning round. But I love that you wrote so many blogs as a kid because growing up, I was so nerdy. I spent so much time writing these short stories and like I always thought I wanted to be like an author

or something like a fictional author. And so I totally get you. And I really think that did help me sharpen my writing skills. So great answer. The other question I was going to ask you about this idea of partnerships and borrowing traffic is I know that early on, you used Gary Vee's audience, he obviously has a giant audience, right?

On LinkedIn, but also on most platforms, and you were able to leverage that traffic and bring those people over to your LinkedIn profile. So tell us a little bit about that because I think you're creative, thinking your scrappiness is really inspiring for listeners. Yeah, so basically on LinkedIn especially, lots of people join LinkedIn and they're joining for a job

and then they never sign on again and there's lots of dead connections on LinkedIn. So when I was trying to grow my following on that platform, I knew that and I knew that I didn't want to just aimlessly follow people that I didn't know if they engaged and I knew that if I wanted to go viral and if I wanted to grow my page really fast that I would need to have active engaged users in my network. And so what I did was target people who I thought were my look alike profile. So GaryVee at the time, now we're like competitors on LinkedIn, but at the time he was like way bigger than me, right? And he was like this huge podcast or need always go viral. And like I thought that his content was very similar to mine. And like his following would really like my stuff. And so I just got creative. Everybody who liked or commented, and I prioritize comments,

because they're worth more in the social world. Anybody who commented on his post, I would send DM and an invite, and I'd invite them to connect. And I'd say, hey, what's going on? My name is Hala. I noticed you like GaryVee's content. If you like his content, you're gonna like mine too.

I said, if you like his content and podcast, you're going to like mine too. So nobody was doing this at the time. Now people do this all the time because I've been sharing the strategy, you know, and more people do it. So people will really like intrigued and they're like, Oh, thank you so much for thinking of me and like so happy to connect. And then I'd say, well, so nice to meet you. I'd love for you to listen to my podcast. Here's the link and let me know what you think. And if you like it, drop me a review. And so I would start these organic conversations. And it did a few things that really helped me. First of all, the way, and I didn't know this at the time, but the way that Lincoln works is that if you DM people, they're gonna consider you to be like a closer friend.

So my stuff started to pop up and everyone's feed more because I was DMing all these people. So that's number one. Number two is like psychologically, these people were attached to me because I was like up and everyone's feed more because I was damning all these people. So that's number one. Number two is like psychologically, these people were attached to me because I was like up and coming. I had the guts to introduce myself to tell them that I think they're gonna think

I was giving them something for free. I wasn't selling. I was just connecting and being genuine. So these people felt compelled to like support me and be my fan. And I have so many people who are like, how have I been following you for three years? Like I can't believe how much you've grown and this is incredible. And I have so many people who are like, how I've been following you for three years. I can't believe how much you've grown. And this is incredible. And there's

so many people like that who just like love to support me because I really did it like one by one. And a lot of people know that. So a lot of people felt like really compelled and attached to me and supported me and engaged on my content. And then the other thing is that because I had acquired so many of GaryVee's followers, so like I probably acquired like 9,000 of his followers, every time I would comment on his post, even if it was like a picture of a cat or something, I get like a hundred likes and it would be the top comment.

And so like Claude Silver from VaynerMedia came on my podcast because I was so visible on GaryVee's profile. I'm sure GaryVee knows about me, but more importantly, a lot of people were curious, and they were like, who's this girl that keeps being the top comment on GaryVee's stuff, and would follow me that way, and I got traction that way. So it's a great approach. And really, if you stamp back, you could do this on any platform. The key is like you want to actually invite engaged, active users to your network who are interested in similar content.

That's like the key strategy. And so I've taken that strategy and used it on many different platforms and in many different ways. And so like I said, the key is finding those people who do engage on content and then inviting them to your network. I love it.

Your breakdown is so simple and clear. And I feel so aligned with everything you're sharing because we teach a very similar connection based strategy for generating traffic when you have a small audience yourself and learning how to borrow existing audiences. This is a concept I talk about in depth in my free masterclass, which is your listener to this show you're familiar with, or if you're brand new to the show, you can go to ellanyand.com slash get clients to give that master class a watch. So partnerships obviously have played a huge role in the growth of your show, hallette. I'm curious outside of joint ventures with these different apps outside of the manual

traction that you've gotten from connecting. Is there any other strategy that you feel has worked really well for your podcast growth that isn't as well known? Yeah. I would say leveraging live platforms. So for example, when Clubhouse was hot, I jumped all over it. I would do live episodes on Clubhouse. And one of jumped all over it. I would do live episodes on Clubhouse and one of the things with any sort of live stream, whether that's LinkedIn or Instagram live or Clubhouse, the fact is is that people are just listening for a few minutes. They're hopping in for 15 minutes and they get distracted and they hop out. But if you can capture who came in your room, so for Clubhouse,

they have analytics trackers like direcon, for LinkedIn, you can see who watches your live. You can then retarget those people. And the key to move people from social to your podcast is actually to engage in the DMs with the direct link. And so you can basically see everybody who came into your Clubhouse room, for example, and then you can retarget them with the replay link. So for example, I would have a live episode.

And then let's say 3,000 people came in and out of the room. Maybe there was 300 or 500 people at a time. And then after the event, that's where really I saw the most traction. I'd say, thanks so much for listening to me and Chris Voss live on Clubhouse. If you only caught a few minutes, we actually have the replay up that's live.

And here's a link to that episode. And I got so many new subscribers from Instagram and clubhouse doing it that way. And you can do that for any sort of live. So re targeting your live viewers who probably didn't watch the whole thing and asking them to listen to the full replay can actually really be a great strategy as well. And then just generally the magic happens in the DM. So if you post up microcontent and people like that content, they're raising their hand and saying, hey, I'm interested in the full episode. So it's up to you to actually give them that link because it's too much to expect

them, especially on Instagram where there's no sort of like link for them to go to. It's too much to expect them to do that work. That's why you've got to do the work for them and then message them in the DMs. That's really smart advice. I think anytime you can decrease the barrier to entry for someone to take an action, right? You can do the hard work for them like you said, and be proactive in the reach out. That is so smart. I never thought about reaching out, like, of course, you know, we respond to all comments, right, on our posts, but thinking about how, like you said, if someone likes a piece of content, like a piece of microcontent, like I don't know a quote from an episode,

that's indicating they have interest in that piece of content or that episode in particular, and then reaching out and being like, hey, did you have a chance to listen to this week's show yet? I love that 100%. Yeah, and then right away. So I've reinterrupted you when I was going to chime in and say, there's actually a word for this.

It's called permission based marketing. And you can use it for anything. So if you post a post about your course, anybody who was commenting on that is raising their hand and saying, hey, I'm kind of interested in this course. Maybe I'm too shy to DM you directly about it or too lazy to go directly to it. But you have permission

now to solicit me and 90.9999% they will not give you a negative response because you have a connection point then to be like, Hey, I noticed you commented on my post about XYZ. If you want to learn more, here's the link. And no one's going to be mad about that because they took the initial action and you're just responding to it. Yeah, I think the the idea of permission and consent is so important when it's when it comes to sales, but especially in a place like DMs where it is so personal word is so one to one. Making sure that you're reaching out to people who are actually interested already in what you have to offer. I love that advice. Okay, let's quickly move into this second piece of this case study.

So talking about, we've talked about how you grew to become a number one podcast. But the other piece of this case study is that popularity doesn't always mean profitability, but in your case, it does. You've been able to generate six figures in income from your podcast. And I know we were talking just before we hit recorded in January, alone, you've already hit six figures for monetizing the podcast. And it's, you know, it's just the start of the year, which is massively impressive. So could you give us a breakdown of, like, if we look at last year, if we look at 2021, what did your different monetization

channels or revenue streams look like in the podcast to generate that type of income? Yeah, I'd like to even take it further back because I feel like I wouldn't be honest if I didn't give everybody the full picture. So I want everybody to know like the full picture. So when I first started the first two years when I was getting, let's say like a year and a half or so, when I was only getting 3,000 to 5,000 downloads a month, I wasn't getting any sponsors none zero partially because I wasn't pitching, but also because I was too small of a show quite frankly. But what I did do was affiliate marketing and that got my feet wet so that I knew how to read commercials. And a lot of these affiliate marketing partners like Audible or Fiverr,

they don't require you to have a certain number of downloads. They ask you how much you have, but they really just approve you. And it's like, if you've got even a small community that's engaged, they don't care. So I was running commercials for Audible and Fiverr and doing these commission-based deals. But to be honest, podcasts are primarily an awareness tool. So I tested those things, but I didn't get a lot out of it. So I don't want you guys to think that,

hey, if I do affiliate marketing and I have a small audience, like, this is gonna kill. No, you'll probably make like a couple hundred bucks or, you know, a month on each partner that you have if you have a small audience. But really, those affiliate links work best on social media

because again, podcasting is more of an awareness tool and expecting someone to go proactively go to a link or whatever is just a hard sell. So I tried affiliate marketing didn't really work out. The first kind of way that I monetized my podcast was actually from creating an agency and monetizing the natural demand that was coming to me. And that was when I started my marketing agency. And so the guests that would come on my show, often I would end the show, and they would immediately say, how long? Who does your videos? And I'd say, oh, I have this intern, I've got interns, I've got to volunteer team, like I have a full-time job, so like I can't help you salary.

And I maybe had this conversation like've got to volunteer team. I have a full-time job, so I can't help you, salary. And I maybe had this conversation like 30 times laterally. And so everybody would always be like, who does your, who produces your show? Or who does your marketing? Do you offer this? And I'd always say no, no, no. Then one day Heather Monahan came on my show,

and she would not give up. She got on a call with me. She's like, show me how you do your video, show me your templates. So I showed her our Slack, I showed her our drive and she was like, Hala, I literally just had a call with Gary Vs team two weeks ago. And your stuff is more impressive. Like you have to start a marketing agency, you have it. Like I want to be your first client.

And I said, all right, I'll give it a shot. So that was when everything turned around and we quickly started to monetize within the next month we were making $40,000 a month just with the marketing agency by the next month, it was like 60, then 80, then 100, and it's like we just kept getting these marketing clients and it happened so quickly and so organically because my podcast was a lead generation tool. We did podcast, we did social media. It started with videos and images and then it turned into taking over LinkedIn then it turned into taking over people's LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube and then end-to-end podcasts. It's like everything that my team did for me,

I just started to sell to my clients. And so the people who would come on my show were my typical target clients. They were bestselling authors, CEOs, celebrities. And so people often think that there's only one way to monetize a podcast and there's not. You can use your guests as a lead generation source. So that's what I did and how I first cracked the code to monetize my show. And within one year we made almost $2 million

with our agency. And I've scaled it to over 60 team members. So that was the first way that I really, really cracked the code. Monetization came later in terms of sponsorship. So I did the marketing agency for about like eight months or so. And then I started to understand how things worked in terms of monetizing my show because I was learning from people like Jordan Harbinger who was my mentor. And he told me like, I needed dynamic ad insertion and like all this kind of stuff.

So like the sponsors like happened slowly and slowly because I started to learn more about that industry. The first way that I monetized was starting my agency. So I'll pause there before I keep going because I know that was kind of a lot. No, I really like that. You gave us that backstory because to your point, I think a lot of podcasters, especially podcasters who are just starting out, they really believe the only way to monetize a show

is through sponsorships, which as you just stated, it's a lot harder to grab those big sponsorships when you have a small listenership. So the fact that you were able to utilize your guests as a lead gen method, which is very similar to, you know, things we've done here as well, like being able to meet people through the podcast. I truly believe podcasting is the best networking tool out there. Like it's such a great way to connect with people that you normally wouldn't have an opportunity

to cross paths with. So exactly. I think that was so smart how you were able to turn that then into a thriving agency. And so then after you had set up this accessible agency, actually, before I ask you that next question, just because I know our listeners really love numbers and the nitty-gritty.

When you started signing clients, I know that you were just taking the systems and the skills that you were already utilizing for promoting your own show and just transferring it essentially to these clients. What were you charging on a retainer basis for these clients that allowed you to scale to that two million so quickly. Well, I mean, I'll tell you, it's so, it's funny because it's like my first deal with Heather Monahan started at like $800 a month. Like it was so little because I was like, I have no idea if I could do this. And I don't want you to like, hate me after this. So I did like this like, until this day, like she gets like the low, low, like she just gets the love because she's the

one that started it all. So, but my next client was $30,000 a month, $30,000 a month for Chainer was my next client. And that $30,000 a month was my next client. And that just like flipped everything off the switch. But the thing that you have to realize is that I had built the team already. I had, I was building this before I knew I was building this. And the other thing is that like I built the team already. I had I was building this before I knew I was building this. And the other thing is that like I truly was an expert like I did blow up my length

and I did I did know everything about podcasting. So it was easy to kind of like take it on and just like scale it out. So the thing that I want people to realize is that not everyone's going to start a marketing agency. What you want to think about is how can you start a podcast where your guests are your ideal client? So if you're a real estate agent, how do you interview people that might want to buy houses? Like, you know what I mean? Or whatever it is for your doctor, like, I can't think of any analogies off the top of my head.

But basically, it's like, think about what you're good at and then try to interview the people that you want to conduct services for. And then also the other key lesson is pay attention to what people are that you want to conduct services for. And then also the other key lesson is pay attention to what people are telling you you're good at. I could have started this agency a year earlier. And the agency is what really blew everything up for me because once I got like, you know,

my first $30,000 a month, for example, that I could pay my team, all of a sudden I had resources to do media buying and advertising, all of a sudden I had the same level of team that like my client that had basically that client was funding my brand to all of a sudden. And so it was like it's not really and to be honest I never had the goal to be a marketing CEO, but I was really good at it and I had the skills. So I was like let me do this. Really my goal was when anybody would ever ask me, like, where do you see young and profiting in five years

before the marketing agency? I always said, well, we're gonna have a podcast network and we're gonna have like a podcast network and help people grow and monetize their shows. And then now I've started that, but it because, it's because of the marketing agency and because the marketing agency basically funded me and I consider my clients like my investors.

So it's kind of like switching your mentality and understanding that there's not just like one path to success because if I had just been focused on, let me get sponsors for my show, get sponsors for my show. It's like my show grew so much last year just because I had money finally to invest in my show. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. You hear that sound, young and profitors?

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Masterclass.com slash profiting. It's like that flywheel effect, right? Halla, like one thing leads to it's like a snowball rolling downhill. It's so hard that initial push and it's so tiny, but the more against traction, it's like everything grows in alignment with that. And so I can see how it's like being able to connect with the right guests, started your agency, which then gave you the cash flow to then finally do the bigger things like media buying, which of course then grew your show even more, which then of course attracted sponsors. So I think that's really smart of you to position it that way. Like how can you utilize your

podcasts as a way to connect with the people that you most want to service or that you most want to partner with? Yeah. Great piece of advice. Okay. These days though, obviously sponsors are interested in you. So could you give us a little taste of like on that side of things, what does that revenue breakdown look like? And if there are any other monetization channels outside of your agency and sponsorships that you currently utilize that people may not have heard of before, we've left for you to share that too.

Yeah, now this part is juicy because this part, I basically had to find out the information. It's not very available. There's not many podcasts that actually are like really monetizing their shows, especially for an independent podcaster that's not part of a network, right? And I'm an independent podcaster.

I'm just starting my own network because I figured it out all by myself. And so part of this was getting people who were more experienced than me hanging out with me and mentoring me. And so in particular, it was Jordan Harbinger, who's my podcast mentor. He's a huge podcaster. And the only reason why he mentored me is because I used to write his ad copy for him. I would just reach out. I had him on my show. because I used to write his ad copy for him. I would just reach out.

I had him on my show. I would tell him about media buying opportunities because I was really into media buying and getting all these sponsorships with all these players like I was telling you guys about before. And he was super interested about that. So he started promoting on cast box and I got huge returns for him.

And then he literally is in my Slack channel, talks to me every day. And so I was trying to understand from him, like, how are you monetizing your show? And I used to believe, I truly believed and would tell people that a podcast is not a business and you're never gonna be able to monetize. Like, you're never gonna be able to, like,

have a living off your podcast. And I used to literally tell people that because I thought that was the truth. But then Jordan was like, what are you talking about? I'm making millions of dollars a year like, hello, like you've got downloads, like you've got to monetize this. And so first of all, it was doing research.

There's advertising agencies who will basically sign you on and take a profit share of what they sell. So for us, like you guys know, we're really scrappy. We don't, we're not shy about reaching out to people. And so we reached out to all these different agencies. Hey, what's up? Like, you know, maybe we had 20,000 downloads a month or, you know, when we first started reaching out.

Actually, let me back up. You need like 5,000 downloads in episode, sometimes 15,000 downloads in episode for before these agencies even consider you. So before, I wasn't even a candidate before, which is why I thought it was impossible. Sometimes 15,000 downloads in episode before these agencies even consider you. So before, I wasn't even a candidate before, which is why I thought it was impossible. But once I was a candidate, it quickly can become lucrative.

And so part of this is knowing that there's many ad agencies out there. So there's kind of two ways you can go about it with podcast ads, okay? There's ad agencies and they will take a cut, so they'll take anywhere from 15% to 30% of the revenue share of whenever they book any sort of podcast reads for you. And then you can also go direct and you can,

and that we do both. So we go through like seven different ad agencies and we also go direct and we sell our shows. And we're very good at it. And so we're totally sold out for YAP and all of our network shows. And that's why I decided, oh, duh, this time for me to launch my network,

like my whole dream, it's happening now, right? So those are the two different ways to do it. And in terms of like how it all works and the money behind it, you essentially get paid CPM. That's the industry standard podcast ad reads and monetization of that is very standardized. First of all, they're only tracking IAB certified downloads. And so a lot of the podcast players out there don't actually

show you exactly what your downloads are. And so for example, we moved over to megaphone, which is like totally like a certified platform that all the brands trust. And like my downloads immediately decreased because it was only tracking IAB. So that's something you guys need to understand, especially if you've done like promotions or whatever.

Like you need IAB certified downloads, which means that people have listened for more than a minute and things like that. So back to how it works. So it's by CPM. So that means that you're going to get paid a cost per 1000 downloads. CPM is stands for cost per mill, which means cost per 1000 downloads. So the average CPM is $22. The more niche you are, for example, like my podcast sells, even though we're not that niche, but we're just a good show and we've got a good brand. So I sell it at like 32 or $35 per CPM. And basically what you do is you try to grow your show, show as average downloads as much as possible. And then you can layer on commercials. So if you

think about it, if you have like one commercial that costs $500, if you play four commercials on one episode, that's $1,000. If you add two pre-rolls, which may be your half that cost, that's $1,500 that you made in an episode. Now, if you do two episodes per week, now you made $3,000 in episode, and now you can make $12,000 a month, right?

Just off your podcast. So it really adds up quickly when you think about how you can layer in commercials. So now we're so booked up that I'm thinking, but oh, I have to add a third episode because we've got all this, like, people want to sponsor and people like to listen to my show. So why not add more content that I can monetize and everything that I do now has this other angle because I can monetize whatever I put out on my podcast. So it's really about growing your downloads

and then putting out the connections so that you have a pipeline of brands who will buy your show. So that I'll pause there because, again, that was pretty down. So do you have any questions about that? Yeah, well, I was gonna say, what an amazing problem to have where you looked out to the point that you might need to create more content to create space for those sponsors. I know that for a lot of listeners, you know, the whole idea of ads just in our everyday lives, right?

Whether you're watching your favorite show on Hulu and it gets like interrupted by an ad or you're listening to a podcast and there's an ad. I think there's a right way to do ads, and then like, when I say right way, I mean, a way that actually serves the listener, where, you know, it's, the content is almost integrated into the episode where it actually brings value to them to listen to the ad. So I'm curious as someone who is very versed in this space,

do you cap the number of ad spots you do per episode, what does that look like, like what quantity are you willing to go up to? And how do you bring value to your listeners through ads? Do you get creative in perhaps presenting the ad in a different way than just like a kind of more of that dry read? Any thoughts you have there, I'm sure would be valuable to hear.

Yeah, so I do cap my ads. I could probably sell 10 ads for sure, but I do and I try to make sure that my episodes are long enough where I can support. So if I have a shorter episode, I'll have a different amount of ads for that episode. So if it's an hour long episode, I'll do four mid-roll commercials,

which are about 60 seconds long each, and two pre-roll commercials. Now, the mid-roll commercials are actually inserted to it a time, and a lot of podcasts do this. So you actually insert them like first 10 minutes, and then, you know, 10 minutes before the end, or whatever it is, but like, so they're at two points. So it's like two commercials in a row, two commercials in a row, and a lot of the big podcasts have that model. So me and total, I have about six commercials per episode. And then I put out two week. Now we're putting out three week because we've got to

satisfy all this demand. Right. And so in terms of making it engaging actually podcasts listeners love to listen to commercials, you'd be surprised. I don't get many people skipping over my commercials. And that's because I use it as a chance. I always try to go really personal because I have an interview podcast and even my solo episodes are really about driving home like how to be a better negotiator. Like really like educational topics. I don't really talk about my personal life.

So I save my commercials to talk about my workout routine or my fight with my boyfriend. Or like, you know what I mean so it's like I can see yeah I infuse my personal stories on purpose specifically in my commercial so I actually think my audience looks forward to it because they're usually like funny it's usually me like poking fun at myself or telling something really personal where they're like wow I had no idea how the likes to bounce on a trampoline for her workouts like you know what I mean? So I just try to give those little tidbits of information.

And then honestly, the audience feels more connected to you because they know more about your personal life. So I use it as a way to share my stories. What a cool way to position it as them getting a slice into or a look into your personal life, it's almost like exclusive content. Like, oh, you can only exclusively find out about my life through these ads, which like you said, it doesn't make it feel like an interruption, but rather like a native piece of content that they

look forward to. So that's brilliant. Everything you share today, Hala, I think is just so smart, so creative. And I know I've used that word so many times, but I feel like it's just a testament to what is possible when you don't like box yourself into, this is the way things have always been done and you said, think, okay, like what can I do? That's different, how can I leverage connections and create my own path. So thank you for this very inspiring conversation.

My last question for you, I ask all of my guests, is what does being a CEO mean to you? Oh, what does being a CEO mean to me? So really, I hope that everybody, so like I know that everybody has their own path, right? So like I'm really clear with that. I never think like, oh, this person's gonna be on my team forever.

So it's like, my goal is that they're really productive while they work for me, that they learn from me, and that they leave the experience when they leave. And it's a happy, mutual thing. And they leave thinking, wow, like this was such a great part of my journey. And I'm going to remember this experience and be happy that I did it and what I contributed it. And remember that hollow is like there for me and help me along my way.

So it's like me as a CEO, it's like, I just hope my team loves working free app. And for as long as they work for me, that they do love their job and that they loved the experience and what they learned. And then same thing with my clients, like I wanna serve them for as long as they're with me or not with me.

It's like, I'm here to serve my clients. So my goal is to make my clients happy. And all this happened kind of because I think my destiny is to own this podcast network. And it's just like, I just want to enjoy the journey and do my best along the ride. What an empowering leadership mindset. That is very rare, I think.

In fact, you're the only guest I've ever had on the show who has taken their answer to this question in that direction of recognizing the fact that not everyone's journey is going to be tied to yours forever. But how can you both show up together and make the most of that piece of the adventure together that you guys are on the right.

So I love that answer. Thank you so much, Hala. Thank you so much, Ellen. This is so much fun. So what do you think about this episode on the cubicle to CEO podcast? I hope you enjoyed it. And if you're a podcaster, I hope you learned a few new hacks to grow and monetize your show. Be

sure to let me know your thoughts by dropping us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Or you can connect with me on social media. You can find me on Instagram at Yap with Hala or LinkedIn. Just search for my name. It's Hala Taha. Big thanks to the app team as always. This is Hala signing off. The app team, as always, this is Hala signing off. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben Podcast.

My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money. Suggestions such as follow the one-minute rule. Choose a one-word theme for the year or design your summer. We also feature segments like Know Yourself better where we discuss questions like, are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever or simplicity lever. And every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick easy shortcut to more happiness.

Listen and follow the podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. Another pointless video call where nothing gets done. I think you're on mute, David. Sorry, what did I miss? I teach just approved Miro for the whole company. Miro? That's the... Online whiteboard.

For team collaboration, we can make these long video meetings so much shorter with Miro, that's the... Online whiteboard. For team collaboration, we can make these long video meetings so much shorter with Miro boards. We can share ideas, feedback, and updates on them whenever, actually see what we're talking about. It's all online. Miro will make her flexible work set up so much easier, with one virtual space for our brainstorms, projects, presentations.

Oh, that sounds kind of amazing. So, I don't need to wake up for 6am calls with the London Office anymore. Now you're getting it. Don't let time zones get in the way of your team working well together. See why 99% of the Fortune 100 trust Miro to get good work done from anywhere. Get your first three boards free at Miro.com. That's M-I-R-O-D-C-C-M. Get good work done from anywhere.

Get your first three boards free at Miro.com. That's m-i-r-o-dot-com.