Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Cathy Heller on Radical Empathy and Finding Work You Love

Episode Date: March 17, 2023

After enduring a painful childhood with a suicidal mother, Cathy Heller moved to LA at 16 with nothing but a dream to become a rockstar. That dream was almost a reality until her producer, Ron Fare, dropped her because he didn’t think she would make enough money as a musician. After jumping between soul-sucking day jobs that made her unhappy, she found a unique way to exercise her passion for music in a more profitable, fulfilling way. In this episode, Kathy explains why a lack of resources is not an excuse to abandon your dreams, why radical empathy is at the core of every business, and how she manages to make millions working only four hours each day. Cathy Heller is a top podcast host, author, songwriter, and entrepreneurial coach. Her podcast, The Cathy Heller Show, has been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur Magazine, HuffPost, Inc Magazine, Business Insider, and several times by Apple. Throughout the show, she has interviewed creative entrepreneurs like actress Jenna Fischer, blogger Seth Godin, singer-songwriter Jason Mraz, Lisa Simpson actress Yeardley Smith, designer Jonathan Adler, Bobbi Brown Cosmetics founder Bobbi Brown, psychologist Adam Grant, and author Daniel Pink.  In this episode, Hala and Cathy will discuss:  - Most adults are convinced they have to be unhappy  - The opposite of depression is purpose  - How messy action builds momentum  - Business is relationships, not numbers - How can you implement radical empathy in your business? - How to cultivate deep and beneficial online relationships with your clients  - The right way to sell a course online  - The endless value of resourcefulness  - How will higher education shift over the next few decades? - How to get paid more by working less  - And other topics… Cathy Heller is the host of the popular podcast The Cathy Heller Podcast. Each week Cathy encourages thousands of listeners to find more purpose and get paid to do what they love. Cathy’s book, Don’t Keep Your Day Job, was released in November 2019 with Macmillan. It’s filled with inspirational stories from people in her community who have taken control of their life’s journey and goes into detail about how to find the work you’re meant to do, grow your business, and wake up to a life you love. She is a phenomenal coach for creative entrepreneurs and she’s helping people everywhere add their gifts to the world. Cathy often says “purpose is the opposite of depression” and she is truly lifting others to be the happiest version of themselves. Cathy currently lives in LA with her husband and their three daughters. LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass, Have Job Security For Life: Use code ‘podcast’ for 30% off at yapmedia.io/course. Resources Mentioned:  The Cathy Heller Podcast: https://www.dontkeepyourdayjob.com/  Cathy’s Website: https://www.cathyheller.com/  Cathy’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cathy-heller  Cathy’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cathy.heller/  Cathy’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/cathyheller?lang=en  Cathy’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cathyhellerbiz/  Cathy’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/cathyheller?app=desktop  Sponsored By:  LMNT - Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any order only when you order through DrinkLMNT.com/YAP More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review - ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of YAP is sponsored in part by Shopify. Shopify simplifies selling online and in-person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com-profiting. Young and profitors, today we have a YAP classic episode we have dug up and brushed off my 2020 interview with Cassie Heller. Cassie is the host of the top podcast, the Cassie Heller podcast, formerly known as Don't Quit Your Dayjob podcast. And that show has over 9 million downloads and features conversations with creative entrepreneurs.

Kathy is also a business and life coach who helps clients get paid for what they love to do through group programs, courses, and retreats. Kathy came around the show over two years ago and we talked about the ups and downs of pursuing her dream career. And I love this conversation because I can relate so much to what she was saying. We both started out wanting to be professional singers. We both hated the idea of working soul-sucking 95 jobs. Kathy is super scrappy and resourceful, and I think you all will benefit from hearing some of the unconventional ways that she took action in achieving her goals. In this episode, we'll cover why a lack of resources is not an excuse to abandon your dreams. Why radical empathy is at the core of every business, and how Kathy manages to make millions a year working only four hours per day.

So without further ado, let's dive right into today's YAP Classic with the brilliant Cassie Heller. Welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. How are you? I'm good. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. I'm so excited to kick off this conversation.

You're very successful. You have a top podcast on Apple. You've launched courses and workshops that generate millions of dollars every time you put one out. You're a mom of three wonderful daughters. And to the outside, I, it might have seemed like a really straight shot path to success, but your success actually came a little bit later. And your past didn't always shine so bright. Like when you were a teenager,

one might not have thought that you would have achieved so much success later on in life. So help us understand what it was like for you as a child, as a teenager, and some of the lessons you learned from growing up. Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that the truth is that that's how it is for everybody. You know, I mean, I think we come into this world as a soul that's got to learn a lot of lessons and it must be true because I don't know any person who has a linear life. There's actually no straight lines in nature either. Like everything in nature has like edges and curves and twists and turns and that's how our lives are.

And I do think that it's like an illusion because you look at people on social media and all you see is like highlight reel and you forget like, oh, this person's heart was broken. Oh, this person got rejected. Oh, something happened. I think everyone who's listening by the age of 10 or 11 or 12, you went through something traumatic.

Someone passed away, your parents got divorced. You had some kind of injury, like life is intense and complicated. So of course, it's like that for me. So I came out to LA 16 years ago with a dream of being a rock star. I wanted to get a record deal. And that was my escape.

Growing up, my parents had a really scary marriage when I was getting divorced. My mom was suicide almost in my life. We had very little money. Lived in a little apartment. My dad was sort of off in his own new life, new marriages, plural. And it was a very depressing, scary time.

And I wanted so much to be heard and seen. And I had a voice I could sing, and I thought, well, then that's it. And people will see me, and people will hear me, and without anything, just like literally a dream, I came out to LA, which is like a very romanticized story from a movie, and I wrote mediocre songs. And the songs got a little better, and a little better. And I was really determined.

And I sent lots of emails and had lots of meetings. And I was very scared and did things anyway. And walked into rooms that I wasn't afraid to be in until I was offered a record deal. And I was signed to InnerScope. And I was sitting with Lady Gaga. She was recording paparazzi. And I was just signed. And they were asking me what I wanted from Starbucks.

And I couldn't believe that soon I would have this record out and I would be like Cheryl Crow and it felt so amazing. We actually have something in common so I started off wanting to be a singer. I recorded a whole album. I actually worked at a radio station hot 97 and that was my first job in college and I actually took that job so I could pitch my music to the DJs and then I fell in love with Radio and hence why I have a podcast 10 years later. But you obviously got a lot further.

Wow, I love that story. I feel like I've lived 10 lives honestly. So I feel like we have a lot of income in there, but you got a lot further. You actually went and got a record deal. I never had anything like that. I just was recording and never really put anything out officially. So talk to us about when you found out that they were dropping you from the label.

And at that point, from my understanding, you were basically told from the people who loved you that you needed to get a real job and you needed to get stable. And how did that feel? And what did you do to sustain yourself after that? Yeah, I was driving in the car, which is where you spend most of your time in L.A. And Ron Fair was my producer. Ron Fair, most people know him now from producing Christina and the pussycat dolls. And he called me and he was like, are you driving? I'm like, yeah, he's like, can you call me when you get home? And I'm like, I'll just pull over.

And of course, he told me, Jimmy Iving loves you. Everybody loves you. But we're not absolutely certain. We're gonna sell 50,000 copies of this record in the first day and we can't take a chance. And I know you'll be successful. There's something about you and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, no, no, no, you're gonna be successful.

But like this might not be like the path for you. I'm like, great, that's what I wanna hear. So yeah, everybody said to me, like, grow up. Like this is reality. Like nothing's gonna happen for you. You're gonna be an adult. And being an adult means being practical and being miserable. So get a job, get health insurance.

And like, when you're on a Sunday afternoon, you can do something you like. When you're retired, you can do something you like. But not with your life. And I was like, that's so depressing. No wonder my mom's depressed. No wonder my parents were miserable. This is what being an adult is like.

Everyone just convinces you that you have to be unhappy. No wonder my mom's depressed. No wonder my parents were miserable. This is what being an adult is like. Everyone just convinces you that you have to be unhappy. So I was like, great, I'll go get a job job. So I got a job at a nonprofit. Because I was like, I'll do something nice for the world. Well, it was the most dysfunctional place I'd ever worked. Then I got a job in an interior design firm. Because I was like, well, I'm really creative.

So like, maybe I want to be around creative things. No, but you needed to do math. And like, I didn't like it. It wasn't really what I'm good at. Then I got a job in a casting office. I worked on the Ghost Whisperer pilot, which Jennifer loved Hewitt. And I hated it. I was like, everyone is so superficial. Not her. She was really sweet. But like the casting world was so nitpicky. And like, even the ways that the assistance wore their clothes to work It was like what are you a fashion designer like you have to be the cool kids in high school everyone was so insecure

I was like what am I doing here? Then my friend said no, you're doing it all wrong if you're not gonna do what you love you go make money And I'm like great. How do I make money? It's like you work in finance or real estate. I'm like well, I'm not good at math So I'll go work in finance or real estate. I'm like, well, I'm not good at math, so I'll go work in real estate. So I get a job in commercial real estate because they're like, no, you don't sell houses. You sell multi million dollar shopping centers. And I'm like, great, because I hate any,

I don't want any of it anyway. So like, final sell a $200 million shopping center. So I go to work for these guys in Brentwood who were like total frat guys. You know, like they drive their Porsche Cayenne, they wear their press shirts, and I'm blowing out my hair, and I'm wearing high heels and pantsuits,

and I'm actually good at it because I realize in that job, what you have to do is just talk to people and have a good personality, and you're talking to people with lots of money. These are not people who you have to convince. Like they're all like, oh, I need a diversified portfolio. Sure, I'll buy that 200.

It's ridiculous. So I was actually pretty good at it. And two years into it, of course, I wasn't making millions, but I was making a couple hundred grand. And I was being told by my friends, you are crushing it. I was driving a white two-door Mercedes coupe. I ate any sushi I wanted. I had the cutest anthropology couch.

Like I was like crushing it. And you were only like 25, 26. 26, yeah. And I looked in the mirror one day and I did not recognize myself. And I just started bawling my eyes out. And I said, I'm gonna go into work today and I'm gonna quit.

Because I didn't move out to LA for any of that. And I've come to realize that the greatest regret of the dying is I didn't live life on my terms. That is the number one thing that people say when they're dying. And I was like, that is not worth it. No amount of money, no amount of anything. And for my friend group at the time, making $198,000 was a lot of money

for a 26 year old. And here I was being super smart. I quit my job. Yeah. That reminds me of, I was listening to you have an interview and you were talking about how your mom being suicidal was all about her, like, not being in alignment with herself. Can you talk to us about how that, you weren't in alignment because you were at that job and like, yeah, I mean, I heard my friend Amber Ray say the same thing that she said, like, people are dying with their gifts inside of them.

And I felt like my mom, that was her deepest pain. She is talented. She is empathetic. She has depth and she's sitting on the couch watching the news. Like she knows there's something else she's supposed to do and a rabbi friend of mine said to me, the opposite of depression is not happiness.

The opposite of depression is a sense of purpose. And I said, that's so true. Like it's not the car and the sushi and the this. It's the, I wake up every day and I put my mark in the world and I feel like I'm doing something. And if you don't feel that, it doesn't matter what size your house is, it doesn't matter. So I quit my job. And here was the problem. I had no path. And this is what I want your listeners to hear me say. I believe that we think often,

it's all or nothing, it's Beyonce or bust. There's nothing in between. I had no clue what else was there. It was either you get to be Cheryl Crow, Taylor Swift, or you're not in music. So I did something really unique. I did something I've never done before and I asked a new question. I did something I had never done before and I asked a new question. Is there any other way I can be in music without being a rock star? And I had never asked that question, so I had never found another answer. So to me, it was like you get the record dealer not. So I start researching and within 10 minutes on Google, I start to see different ways people are making a living in music.

And one of the biggest things was called licensing your songs to film in TV. And for those of you who are looking at this on a video screen, which I hope you're not because I just got out of the shower and I have three kids running around. I didn't do it in Panaykit. But these are articles from Billboard, variety, music connection. I was on the cover of the USA Today Music section. Why?

I started licensing my music, but let's go back. I didn't know what that meant. I read an article about Snow Patrol, Regina Spector, Ingrid Michelson, Christina Perry, who had their songs in all these The Hunger Games and Grey's Anatomy and Dawson's Creek and all these shows and all this stuff. And I was like, what is this?

These people started out without record deals. They were just licensing music. So I was like, what is this? These people started out without record deals. They were just licensing music. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna put all my energy into that. And so I started to ask more questions, what songs do these people need? Who are these people? What's their email address? How do I make a relationship with them?

And I made it my job to focus on that. And it took 18 months. And by 18 months, I was out of money. Because I was living in LA without a job spending $2,500 on rent, that's what it cost. I was bleeding money and making music. I was recording music. So I was spending money and some of the songs were not

exactly what they needed. And a lot of people weren't writing me back. And I was getting phone calls unanswered. But after 18 months, I got my very first license and I made $58,000 and they used a song of mine called, We're Good Together. We're Good Together, We're Good Together. Look at how we shine.

Anyway, they used this song in a Hasbro commercial and they paid me 58 grand. Just to use it, not to own it. Amazing. Then I licensed it again to something else. Then I wrote another song. Then I made another relationship with Amazing. Then I licensed it again to something else. Then I wrote another song. Then I made another relationship with ABC. Then I wrote songs for Switch to Birth.

Then it, and then it all just tipping point, like boom. Then I started writing music constantly. And when I look back, like even in the heyday of my music world life, I did that for a decade. I did that for 10 years. I did nothing else for 10 years other than be a mom and write those songs for film and TV. And at the top of it, I probably had like 28 buyers, Paramount, Lionsgate, somebody at this ad agency. Like it wasn't like thousands of

people. And it's amazing how 28 people in the world who you have a relationship with can turn your dreams into a reality. So here's what happened next is I thought I'm going to get a record deal. I was still holding on to that. So I was like, look what's happened. Like my song was in this movie. It was featured like, you know, people are going to, the things are going to start to happen. It didn't happen. What happened was something I didn't predict, which was that other artists did this.

Hey, can you help me? Hey, can you help me knock, knock, knock, like emails, phone calls? And I'm like, why are you calling me? Like, I can't help you. I don't do that. I don't have a school. I'm not Berkeley. I'm not what, why would,

and a friend of my husband's was reading the Billboard magazine, which made me feel cool, because he's like, I picked up Billboard, and he's like, you were a full page. And me feel cool because he's like, I picked up Billboard and it's like, you were a full page. And he came over and he's like, you're sitting on a gold mine. And I'm like, what?

He's like, you should teach other artists. You should be an agent for other artists. And I felt insulted. I'm like, I'm an artist. And I want people to hear this too. We are very much an or, we forget the yes and. We are so precious about our identity. It's like, do you know I'm an artist?

No, no, no, no, it's like, wait, wait. There might be more for you. Maybe there's ways that you're being led to serve the world and just trust the process. So finally, I'm like, kept bouncing around in my head, what he said to me, and my husband's like, you have nothing to lose. And I said, well, people are not gonna take me seriously as an artist. What was the complete opposite?

I started an agency. I started pitching other artists along with myself. That was step one. And I started making these indie artists money. And it felt really cool to help them. And I made a little percentage of it. Then I realized these artists needed some help. So I start my first course called

Six Figure Songwriting in my living room, three houses ago, I start this. I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what I'm charging. I'm just 10 people come over. Then I got three of those workshops, people loved it. I was like, let me rent a place because I need more chairs. I rent a theater for $150, we had 50 seats.

I filled it up. And then I rent a theater for $150. We had 50 seats. I filled it up. And then I was like, this is something. Then I still at that point never, never thought I'd have a podcast, but other people had music podcasts. And they were like, can you talk about licensing? So I go on the CD baby podcast and he says to me, we've never had an episode that's downloaded as much as this.

People are so, so interested in what you just talked about. And I get this life-changing email from this girl, Tiana, who I didn't know, who went to Berkeley undergrad, Berkeley School Music. She goes, I just heard that episode. Please tell me, you will create an online class because I don't live near you and I have to learn from you. And I'm like, online class, is that Japanese?

What are you taught? I really didn't know that world. Like I was coming from like record deal to like living in LA writing music for Disney soundtracks. Like what's an online class? She says to me, Amy Porterfield, I go who's that? She goes just look her up and take her class and build a course that I'm like, you're insane.

Goodbye. And then that was jiggling around in my head. And she says to me, do you understand you're making a few hundred grand a year? You could make that in one launch of a class because she said there will always be a line of people around the block for everything you do. For every one customer, there'll be

50 people who want to know how you did what you did. And I'm like, okay, jiggling around in my head. So at that point, we lived in a cute little $1 million. It was literally $1,50,000. That's all we could afford. But we were doing okay, but we had our $1 million cute Spanish bungalow LA house. And I was pregnant with our third daughter. And I was like, wait a minute, I wonder

if this would be a game changer. And then my kids can go to the better school and we can have a better house in LA because it's expensive. I'm pregnant, I've got three months till the baby's gonna be born. I'm just gonna frickin' do this thing. Let's just do it.

Well, I did. I didn't have an Instagram account, I didn't have an email list, no joke. I looked up what you do and I was like, oh God, it was like exhausting. Like I would read one thing about what I'm supposed to do, like creating an opt-in and attaching a lead page to a thing people download and exchange,

and I was like, my heart would race. I'm like, this is so not me, but I did it. I created one frickin' opt-in, which was like, here are the 10 things you need to know to license music. I love it. And I put it out and I didn't know what I was doing, but like I posted it in a Facebook group

and then people shared it. And I thought, okay, if I get a thousand people to download this free thing, I'll do a free webinar. And I had never done a webinar and I had a big pregnant belly and I had not one slide because I didn't know what slides were. I didn't know how to do that. I go on, I do this webinar for 1,014 people. It took six weeks to get that many people who were like,

sure, I'll do this thing for you. I want to learn, it's free. I do a one hour webinar straight to camera, pour my guts out. I'm like, here's what I did. Here's what you can do. Write this down, write this down, write this down. At the end, I said, I'm going to do a class. It's called six-figure songwriting. It's a year. I made it up. Now my classes are 12 weeks. Like, I never would do a year. I didn't know what I was doing. I was like, it's a year, it's 997, because Amy Porterfield said 997 is a good price, $1,000, right? 147 people bought it.

And that night, I looked at my husband and I was like, I just made $147,000 in one day. That's crazy. Then I had the baby, I taught the class, I loved teaching the class, and then one of my students said, you need to have a podcast. And I was like, I don't know what that means. She goes, I know a woman who sells ads for billboard, Adam Corolla and a bunch of comedians who have podcasts, just have

coffee with her. And I'm like, sure, I'm 10 days postpart, I'm having a baby. Fine. And this woman says, you need about 10,000 listeners to make it even worth it. I'm like, that'll never happen. But okay, great. I start a podcast. And then within two weeks of starting the podcast, I get a call from three book publishers saying,

this show is phenomenal. People want to leave their day jobs. People want to do something creative. This is amazing. We want to do something creative. This is amazing. We want to offer you a book deal. I'm like, I can't write a book. I really haven't written anything like that since 10th grade English class.

So give me a minute. Meanwhile, I had just launched the second launch of the music class and it made 441 grand. Then I launched it again. It made 750,000. Then I figured it again, it made 750,000. Then I figured out something that now I do, which is not a webinar, but a five day challenge, and I've perfected it.

And now when I launch, we'll make like a million and a half dollars with very little Facebook ads spend. Maybe we'll spend $5,000 on Facebook ads, but the challenge, I am like the queen of doing a challenge. Meanwhile, I start this podcast, and it starts to blow up. We're three years in, we're at about 15 million downloads now.

It's a dream, and I start realizing, I don't wanna just teach musicians. I wanna be a stand for people who wanna do a thing, and need to get resourceful, and need to figure out how to separate a business versus a hobby, I'm like, I am into this. So I start a program called Made to Do This. How do you figure out what your thing is and how do you actually validate it and make your

first 5 grand, 10 grand? How do you actually do a thing? That's like a passion project. It has literally been the funnest ride. And can you believe my very first anything online, this first webinar, this is four years ago. The podcast started three years ago. And now every quarter we're making multi-millions.

And this is the best part. Now I teach other people how to do that. Yeah. Isn't that fun? Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea but you don't know how to move forward with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree

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to the Millionaire University podcast. New episodes drop Mondays and Thursdays, find the Millionaire University podcast on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And it's working, you're students make money. I know that you have great testimonials. I'm so happy that you unpacked your full story. I think that your story is amazing. I think there's so many things that we can dig into. I'm so proud of your journey. And so there's a few things that I want to point out to my listeners. First of all, you took a break from music.

You took a break, and you were successful in real estate, but you took a break from music, but then you went back to your dreams. Something that I noticed when I talked to a lot of people, a lot of people like let go over their dreams, and then they feel like they can never go back to them. For me, I left the entertainment industry for five years, and then I went back they can never go back to them. For me, I left the entertainment industry for five years and then I went back.

I never thought I would go back but everything is just kind of like upstream momentum because I'm following my passion and your action and plus passion can make anything happen, right? So that's exactly what happened to you. It's like you just got interested in things. You didn't know how to do them. You didn't know how to start an online course. You didn't know how to do a podcast but you just tried and something else that you often talk about is that you don't know how to do them, you didn't know how to start an online course, you didn't know how to do a podcast, but you just tried and something else that you often talk about is that you don't do things

perfect, you do them messily. Tell us about that, tell us about how you just jump into anything that you do and just get started, because I think people really need to hear that. Well, I agree with you. Three things about that. Number one, what you just said is so true. And I heard Tony Robbins say years ago,

our greatest resources are resourcefulness. And the thing that lights up strongest in the brain, I took a bunch of classes at UCLA, they have this mindful awareness center. And I took a couple of years of classes there. And they said the thing that lights up strongest in the brain is not love, it's not hate, it's enthusiasm. So when you are enthusiastic, other people are magnetized to you.

So when you get resourceful and bold and you take messy action, there will be momentum. I said messy because you're right. I think that the biggest thing I see that stands in people's way is that they don't want to do anything unless it's perfect. And the people I know who are successful have an action taking bias, meaning they will hit it out of the park, but that's because they swing for the fences constantly.

That's because they get up to bat more often. Like you could say Michael Jordan, he is the greatest of all time. Meanwhile, for every point he made, how many shots did he miss, right? It's the unrelenting, and that is what creates mastery. So Serena Williams, you know, she started out behind her sister and she was like, oh no, you don't. Like I will crush you and she gave herself permission to play until she was better than her. But she wasn't Mozart

Day 1, right? That doesn't exist. And so when you look at Justin Timberlake, when you look at John Williams, when you look at, I'm thinking of music people right now because I'm in that field. Anybody at the top of their field, right? Anybody, right? Like athletics and science, Elon Musk. Elon Musk was borrowing money for rent 12 years ago.

So what do we know about those people? It's courage and it's courage to be imperfect while you're iterating. Elon Musk said, I'm gonna do this thing called electric cars. And if somebody beats me to it, that's great, because I actually just think it's an important thing the whole world should get on. I'm probably gonna fail a few times.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm all in to figure it out. So I think we have to think the way scientists do. Like, right now people are going into work. Can you imagine being a scientist is trying to find a cure for cancer? And you've been working at this for 45 years. And every day it's a no. Every day you have nothing. Except as a scientist, they feel the reason they say in it, because they're like, oh my God, here's what we learn that doesn't work. Isn't that amazing? We know so much more and we're getting closer.

So instead of looking at failure as the end, they see failure as feedback, and that is so crucial. And I'm one of those people. I think part of having an uncomfortable childhood was a blessing. Because there was no illusion that life is just like easy and smooth. We make it. We make it what it is if we kind of like stay in it. So there's that. The other thing is, and I don't think everybody hears this, and I think this is really important.

There's a lot of conversation about our dreams. Do what you love. There's a more important piece. The more important piece is radical empathy for other people. We're not put here because it's about us. We're put here to serve. So I had to let go of my dream and open the door to, is there any other way that I'm of use to the world, that I can be of value to the world and put my ego aside? And I started to find out in the way that I even was successful with my music. This is interesting. This is important.

I wasn't successful in film and TV because I wrote songs I wanted to write, and people bought them. No, it was because I would have these conversations with the head of soundtracks at NBC and say, what do you need? What story are you telling? Oh, you know, Kathy, we have the sister movie. Can you write? I'll be right back. So the empathy is crucial.

The thing that people don't realize is there's a difference between a hobby and a business. A hobby is, this is about what I love and it doesn't matter what you think. If it's a business, by definition, someone paid me. If someone paid me, they need this thing or they want this thing, which means it's about them. People do not want to swallow that.

But I'll tell you what, the people behind Apple products, the people behind Skippy Peanut Butter, the people behind any business you love, care so much about what you want, and that's why they're successful. And a lot of people have a very hard time with that, and they're missing the boat, because it's a pleasure when we do something

and somebody is uplifted by it. So what I did is I just kept looking for where am I needed. So then these students were like, can you teach me? And at first I was like, no, and then I'm like, let me say yes. And it worked. Then somebody else was like, it's inspiring.

Start a podcast. OK, let me do that. Then I start seeing that people need this. I'm like, let me do that. And it starts being that people need this. I'm like, let me do that. And it starts being that I'm led, not by what I love, but by what people are saying as a reflection, this is what I need from you.

Now, that's different from this is what I need. It's a problem I can solve. It's them saying to me, like, there's a lot of people who for years, people have said to them constantly what they love about them, but they ignore it. Everyone who's listening has gotten feedback at some point in their life, like, you're such a good listener, you're so good with clothes, you really help give me good advice. Every time I'm about to build something, you come over,

listen to that. It's a problem you were built to solve. As opposed to saying, I see a lot of people who they ignore all of that and then they keep pushing this door that's not going to open because it's not about anyone else. It's like, but I want this and why? What's the reason for it? And here's the thing, I think it's because deeply people want to feel seen. So they have this like, I need to be seen in this way. It's like, just maybe you'll feel even more seen when you do that thing that the way you do it, the world is just like floored because you really served. You know what I mean?

So I've just come to see how empathy plays a big role in the way that we show up in business. And then I've also learned a lot about what actually makes people buy things. And how sales is like, it's a long runway. It's not, here's a product, here's a service, it's like, let's build the intimacy, let's really connect, let's like make sure that you feel that I get what you need first and you have a full experience of this thing and then I don't even have to sell you on it because like We're already in a relationship. So business is relationships. It's not numbers and I've learned that and When you focus on that and you just make deposits with people and you think of like how can I show up and how can I give and

I mean in a very tactical way and we can talk about it more, it just happens, the momentum just shows up. Yeah. Oh my gosh, you just gave so much good advice and there's so many things that I wanna talk to you about in terms of the lessons that you brought out. The first one is the fact that you're not scared

to kind of like go up to your potential clients and ask them what they want. So instead of trying to guess what they want, you actually ask them what do you want. And from when I was doing your research, I know you and you just mentioned it, like you would call up random people that you didn't even know and like introduce yourself, ask them what they want. And then you'd make a good impression because it'd be like nobody has ever done this before. So you like you would immediately stand out as somebody who has courage, like you mentioned

and who's smart enough to know that you're not going to work on something before you know there's actually a demand for it, right? And then also what you said about thinking about what people praise you for, that's a clue into what you're special at, what you're extremely talented at, and what you could possibly sell that people will actually want. So I think those are all key things that everybody listening should think about. One thing that I want to go back to is your resourcefulness. So can you tell us an example of when you were relentlessly resourceful?

You did something that most people wouldn't have done to get that job, to get to that next step. I mean constantly every single day is the answer. I'm doing it constantly. I can give you so many examples, but one of them that's fun is that when I was starting out in this music thing of trying to license my music,

I kept feeling like I would send emails or I would make phone calls and nine times out of 10, people wouldn't answer their phone or they wouldn't call me back or they wouldn't respond to an email. One single while they would, which was also fine, but I wanted more. And I thought, you know what? It's nobody's job to help me. And I think that people get really cynical. They're like, it's such a mean business. It's like, look, this person is sitting at a desk. They have a job. Then after work,

they have to take their dog to the vet. They also have their own issues. They have a boss. Like, they're not just waiting for a stranger to call them and go, oh, how can I just give you a lecture on what you need to do for your career? That's not there. That's not, do you do that every day? No. So I realize I have to make deposits. I have to make a relationship before I can ask them to even tell me what they need.

And trust me, who am I? They're just gonna tell me, oh yeah, we're working on, so I needed to kind of connect on a human level. So one day I'm sitting at my computer and I'm like, I gotta do something out of the box and I'm just like, I don't overthink things. That's one of my strengths. I'm like, everybody likes coffee.

So I just open up my computer. I'd never at that point made anything. So I'm not good at graphic design. I pull a picture of a Starbucks, Frappuccino, off the internet. I pull a picture of a little girl with a guitar off the internet. She was like a cartoon girl with a guitar. And I put a plus sign between them. So like this little girl with a guitar, a plus sign and a Starbucks.

And I wrote on top of it, Moke is in music. And then I wrote, step one, tell me your favorite Starbucks drink, step two, tell me what day and time to drop it off. And step three, I'll leave you with some music and some coffee, and that's it. I took this little PDF image and I put it inside of an email and I sent it to about 80 people

and a bunch of people said nothing and some people said, no thank you. And 26 people said, sure. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna start delivering coffee. So I'm like, what do you want? And then I went and like, I actually added to it. I was like, does your assistant want something? Cause I figure, okay, so it's gonna cost me 15 bucks,

but it'll be so awesome. I walked in the 26 offices of different people who chose music for TV shows and ads, and would you believe a year later there was a billboard article and the editor billboards said, how many licenses did you have this year? And I said 26. Every one of them worked with me. And that was the breakthrough.

It's like, and I didn't have the music already that every one of them needed, but I walked in that office and I did not take the bait. I didn't say, let me tell you about myself. Nope. I really held on to what my mission was, which is this is not about me. I said, here's the coffee.

I was ready to walk right back out the door and they each said, sit down. In some offices, I stayed for eight minutes, in some offices, I stayed for an hour. We didn't talk about music. I asked them about them. Why do you like your job? What got you into it? What's your story?

Do you have kids? Do you like living in LA? We just went into a conversation. And I was really, truly interested because I really admire these people. And I was actually so impressed at how many of these people helped all these indie artists,

and they're not record label executives making this big money. They're just music fans who find these artists and then these artists blow up. So I had a lot of respect for them. It wasn't fake. Well, it led to a relationship where then they were like,

you know what, I will listen to this music you brought and let me follow up with you. And so then they would give me a shot. You know, Kathy, we're working on something we need a song about home. Let us know if you have something and I'm like, I'll go write something

and then sure enough, I did. And they liked it. And then it led to the next thing and the next thing. So I think that that was pretty resourceful and I do stuff like that constantly, non-stop. So I love that you was pretty resourceful. And I do stuff like that constantly, nonstop. So I love that you were just so creative. You just did something that was totally at the box. You didn't know if it would work or not,

but it didn't take much of your time to just put a PDF together and send out an email blast. And then the long-term effects of it were amazing. You got 26 people the following year who worked with you. So I think that's so cool, so innovative and just shows like how much you think outside the box. Something else I want to talk about is your concept of deep engagement. So I learned that you like to have 10 Instagram conversations a day with your

audience. So what makes it so important to you to connect deeply with your listeners or clients? Well, I think that people in general really look at numbers. So we're like, oh, wouldn't it be so cool if I had 100,000 followers, 200,000 followers? And I don't think people really understand what matters more is the depth of the relationship. So if you have 100,000 followers, but you get like 24 comments on a post, it's not a connected, deep, intimate relationship you have with your audience. But if you have 4,800 followers, and you get 58 comments on a post and 1200 likes, it's amazing what you've built. Like, that's incredible. that's so, so special.

I think that, you know, what I've seen in my life is, you don't need millions of people to buy from you. You also underestimate how, if you do have a course that's $9.97 and 100 people take it, 100 people in the world, that's 100 grand. If you have a program that's $3,000 and 100 people take it, that's 300 grand, right? Every single person on average has about 400 friends online. So everything is word of mouth.

And if you have a really strong relationship with 10 people and then they share about how much they loved working with you, you'll probably soon have 20 people and then they share about how much they loved working with you. You'll probably soon have 20 people. And then they'll share. And it's more important to have that intimacy than it is to have a bigger number with much less connection involved. There's a lot of skepticism about people who launch courses.

There's a lot of feelings that people who launch courses. Like there's a lot of like feelings that people who launch courses are like scammy. And I think that it's starting to go away because the new way that people want to educate themselves is through courses. So like what would you say to that in terms of like people who think that courses, or like selling a course is like being a sellout? Or yeah, I think you get my gest.

Yeah, I do. So I will say two things. One, I don't sell courses and I'll tell you what I mean. I don't think people buy courses. I don't think that that's what people buy. When I go ahead and invite people to work with me, I make sure that they understand. And this is really the truth. I don't think people are buying the course that's going to sit on their desktop, those videos.

It's not going to work. What we find in the data is most of those people don't complete those courses. So it's kind of a waste of money. What I sell is I'm actually going to keep you accountable, and I'm going to show up live, and I'm going to help you accountable, and I'm going to show up live, and I'm going to help you implement all this information. So it's like coaching. Well, it's just the implementation of whatever it is. You don't have to be a coach.

You could be a person who teaches people how to be vegan. You could be a person who teaches people how to play piano. You might not necessarily consider yourself a coach, but it's the, I'm going to help you, look at the difference of this. Let's say you watch videos on YouTube with a yoga teacher. They're all free or you hire a yoga teacher and you're in a class.

And that person can come over and like give you an adjustment or give you some information that helps your ankle. That's very different than watching it for free, right? And I think a lot of people have all these to-do lists, right? I'm going to start a podcast. I'm going to be more successful. I'm going to be healthier. But there's not a lot on the to-done list.

Nothing's done. So what I think I do is I say, if you actually want to start a business, if you actually want to start a podcast, if you actually do want this year to license your music and you want to be doing it, not thinking about it, but doing it, then this program is an insurance policy because you will get it done. So the way I set up my programs are like these full interactive, immersive things where there's a tremendous amount of built-in accountability, and there's a lot of live engagement, Zoom calls, where it's like it's constant.

For me, that's worth everything, and if you look at a school, right, like a college, and people are paying, depending where you go, could be 20 grand a year, 70 grand a year, and it is theoretical. It is theory. It is not actual. Versus spending three grand, five grand, on a 12 week program, immersed with the person who's doing it and has done it, and is going to add that they're showing up

and making sure you do it. That is a tremendous gift, right? Like the fastest way to get from point A to point B is to find the person who's not point B who's going to take you there and save you the 10 years, right, and save you the time. So that's why it depends on what you're buying. I personally don't like these programs that are like, it's an amazing webinar and you can spend this money and go watch these videos.

That to me, I wouldn't do, because it's all for me about the accountability and it's all to me about I need the feedback loop from the person who looks at it, puts their eyes on it and says, no, it's this, it's not this. Those little tweaks and the coaching, because I also don't think we buy the thing

just for the information. I think the transaction is the energetic exchange of being around the person who holds that frequency of, I actually live this life. And the more you're around that person, you're like, I am starting to absorb this. And it's not just the information, it's this person's energy're like, I am starting to absorb this. And it's not just the information. It's this person's energy and confidence. And it's pushing me to actually do these things.

And it's lighting in a bottle. I've literally had, it's insane. The ways that people feel after taking my programs, they're like, I would pay 20 times what I paid for it. And I feel like it's the, I feel like it's the greatest impact I've made. I will also say one other thing, which is what will help people be less skeptical. I teach the entire class in the free challenge. I teach the entire class in the five day free challenge. If I do a webinar, which I don't,

because I can't get it all in in one hour, I still would teach as much as I can. I don't do this thing where I'm like, here's what's possible, and if you want to know how to do it, join the class. I know that's really, really hip to do, but I just don't do that. I don't like doing that. I also have a lot of reasons to believe that it's really good for my business to give a lot of stuff away for free. It's really good for my business. So when I of stuff away for free. It's really good for my business. So when I do a five day free challenge, people are taking pages of notes,

and I 100% believe that they will be better off after the five days that are free, and some of them will be totally good to go. They will not need the class, and that's awesome. It really helps my brand. It really builds my platform. It brings so many more people to my podcast. It's so fun.

And the people who decide to join my program, that's also awesome. And they just need, they're like, I got a lot out of it, and I cannot not have you around for three months. So that's all it costs, 3500 bucks. And I get to be around you for three months, like where you're really showing up. That's a no brainer for me. And for everybody else, we're good. Because I love giving that away. And I love how it builds my audience,

like in the deepest way. And they're fans forever. So it's the way that people should live their life. I think it's just give as much away as possible. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors. Your dog is an important part of your family. Don't settle when it comes to their health. Make the switch to fresh food made with real ingredients that are backed by science with nom nom. Nom nom delivers fresh dog food

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Again, that Shopify.com-profiting, Shopify.com-profiting, all lowercase. This is Possibility powered by Shopify. Totally, and I think it's a future, honestly, because I think people are gonna move powered by Shopify. Totally. And I think it's a future, honestly, because I think people are gonna move more away from traditional education. It's not really working.

I think more of like internships, apprenticeships, mentorships, I think that's the future, and I think that's where you play. I'm injured, percent. I have three little kids. I mean, they're little, three, six, and eight. But I think about them going to college, and I'm like, I didn't learn one thing.

No. Not one thing that I liked it, though. I had fun. I liked being on campus. I had a cool boyfriend. I worked for the college paper, but that's a different thing than my career. It's so funny how that was not career-related at all.

It was a life experience, but my career has been learning on the job. The conversations I've had with guests on my podcast and starting a podcast is the most spectacular thing you can do. I know. I always encourage my listeners that a lot of people are scared that there's too many podcasts out there, but like you said It's not about how wide you're going. It's about how deep you're going So if you can find people that care about what you're saying if you have a specific niche and like you said It's a great way to learn from mentors. Okay. I'm learning from you

I had Robert Green on my show Mark Manson on my show like huge names that would have never talked to me if I didn't have any sort of platform. So definitely encourage everyone to go out and start a podcast if you want to. I want to talk about your work day because I learned that you only work four hours a day. Sometimes less. That's crazy to me. I'm here working literally. I have a full-time job.

I have my podcast. I have a freelance project. I have a client. I work 80 hours a week, 90 have a full-time job, I have my podcast, I have a freelance project, I have a client, like I work 80 hours a week, 90 hours a week. So I want to know how you are able to manage all, because you have multiple projects to you, how are you able to do everything in four hours a day? Well, I started out working like that, non-stop, and then I realized the more successful you are, you work smarter, not harder. That's it.

So I actually think it's less work to make multi-million dollars than it is to make $40,000. If you're making $40,000, you are working standing on your feet all day long. It's hard. If you're making millions, what you've figured out is you've stepped back, and instead of working in your business,

you've worked on your business, and you've looked at things, and you've been able to build something which you can now launch every so often. You, I mean, there's a lot to that, but there are days where I don't work at all. I don't only work four hours a day. Sometimes I work nothing at all.

It depends on the day. It's how I intentionally built my life though. Like when I was doing music, I had to build it every time again. In order for me to make 50 grand from Coca-Cola for a song, I had to sit down, write a hit, and they have their pick of the litter. I had to write a great song, which means in order to get that one choice that they would pick, I had to show up for them probably 12 times where there were other things they

didn't choose just to keep the relationship alive. So it was a lot of labor intensive, constant making the relationships, getting in the room so I could even have something to pitch to, then I had to go do the work, oh, can you make this edit? Actually, we're not going to use it the client pass, but we have this thing for Walmart. Can you work on that? It was constant. And it took me all my time to make that money, $300,000, $400,000 a year, right, from like a bunch of placements on TV. When I started teaching classes, it was like, oh, let me start getting better and better at this, right? Because then I can do the music stuff just in between when I want to. I'll take a project when I want to. I'll write a

theme song for Netflix when I want to, but I don't have to. And everything comes down to building a deep relationship with an audience, because a portion of that audience will convert to buy something. And like I said, I'm making multi-millions. I know it sounds like, oh, so weird that she says it.

But I say it because I want people to hear it, like it's not a big deal. You know what I'm saying? It really, we put it on such a pedestal. This is the problem. And we think like there's only one little tiny bridge that gets you there and who knows where to find that. It's like, no, it's available.

I have tons of friends who do this. And no one knows them. Like Seth Godin is my personal mentor. He's like, Kathy, if you go into Google and you just type the word Seth, when those them, like Seth Godin is my impersonal mentor. He's like, Kathy, if you go into Google and you just type the word Seth, I'm the first thing that shows up. That's how many people read his blog

and he goes, and if you round up to the nearest million, most people don't even know who I am. Even though I have a decent following, I'm still not even a, I'm not even a thing. And I'm making so much money because a small piece of my audience will buy these programs or whatever. So, like say to people with their show,

with their platform, if you had 62 people come to your house every Tuesday, your neighbors would be like, why are there 62 cars in front of your house? It's a lot of people. So when people are like, I can't start a podcast, I won't have 15 million downloads. I'm like, how about 62?

How about 62 people? And you then have a thing where you do this program or this retreat or you're having an online summit or you're offering the candles you made and 24 of those people buy that from you every month. My friend Jenny was just on Shark Tank. I want to tell you this really quickly. She's my best friend from high school. I've known her like forever. And you know, we kind of riff on this stuff all the time and she became vegan and she wanted to do something and she was a stay-at-home mom and she wanted to work

and she wasn't sure what to do. So she starts making vegan recipes and she comes across this vegan corn beef recipe and her husband liked it and he eats meat. So she's like, oh, let me go try. Let me let's see if other people like it. Other people liked it. Now here's the thing. We talked about working hard versus working smart. If she would have said, I'll sell a sandwich to each person. One at a time, that's like 15 bucks a sandwich at best, right?

No, you know what's smarter? Zoom out. And instead of having to sell hundreds of sandwiches to hundreds of humans, how about you get one client? And you zoom out and say, who's my one client? Oh, I'm going to call this really popular deli in LA and see if they want to buy a hundred pounds of corn beef.

Let me call another place. How about Dodger Stadium? Do they want one kiosk with vegan food? So she did that. And three weeks in to her business, she's on the phone making the calls, no one that wants to make. She's calling the managers of the delis. She was calling Quiznos corporate. She was calling Whole Foods and scared out of her mind. This is how you work four hours a day. Cause that's smart. That's the smart way. Not getting a food truck and selling it one at a time

and trying to make $800. No. She wound up getting meetings, bringing a corner of a sandwich for someone to taste. She wound up getting into 10 Delis in LA. She wound up getting into Quiz Nose. They tried her in one local store. People liked it.

They went into the whole region with in 10 months of making that corn beef in her kitchen. She was making multimillions. That's working smart, not working hard, right? So one person led to thousands at one time. She knew if she got subway, she's done, right? She's done, and that's what happened. So now she's in everywhere. Menacing of farms, quiz, nose, whole, like everything. It's just ridiculous. It's so done, beyond done, beyond done. And with me, I knew like, wait a minute,

like it's even smarter for me to keep thinking about like where is a bigger pool? And how can I, if, this is what I wanna say, in the three-dimensional world, not online, right? But like in your neighborhood, how many people can you really talk to in a day? How many people will you meet and have real conversations with? Online in one hour, you can talk to 5,000 people, 20,000 people, like it's just more effective.

And then a small group of those people are gonna show up and be interested in what this thing is. But what does it take? You have to have an offer. And a lot of people are so ashamed of like who am I to have an offer, who am I to charge for something? And that's where it all falls apart.

You have to have the, my friend Suzy said to me, Suzy Moore, she goes, you either have the courage to sell or you will work for someone who does. Isn't that good? Like, I love that. Cause like, you know, either you marry Rich or you won't have the courage to sell what you do,

your service, your product, or whatever, but you'll let somebody else have the courage and you'll work for that insurance company. You'll work for that person's graphic design company. Because they're entitled to sell and I'll let them be courageous and then they can pay me, but I don't believe in what I'm doing.

So I'll work for the person who has courage to sell their thing. Like when you really think about it, that's what it is. Yeah. I think this was such an amazing conversation. I think you brought at so many points about being courageous, taking risks, being creative, right, being resourceful. So many different tips that we can use no matter what industry we're in and no matter what career goals that we have. So thank you so much.

Can you tell I love talking about this stuff? I love it. I mean, it's inspiring me. I feel so motivated. Even when I, before I met you, I was like, this lady is inspiring me to be like an entrepreneur faster than I would be. The last question that I ask all my guests

is what is your secret to profiting in life? I think the answer that comes to me is there's a line in the Talmud, okay? The Talmud is like this 3,000 year old Jewish text. And it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. It says that the first question God asks you when you get to heaven is to answer for every pleasure and every beautiful thing in the world that you did not taste. And the way I interpret that is, it's all here, the sunsets, the sushi, the really good friends, the beautiful apartment, the really good towels. And we don't believe we deserve it,

and we put a ceiling on what's possible, and we don't reach for it, and we settle, and we tolerate less. I don't just mean quality of like the physical stuff. I mean, we settle for less in our relationships. We allow ourselves to be around people who are negative, who don't really see us. We allow ourselves to say, like, it's okay.

I'll just have this little tiny place. I'll just have this job that doesn't fulfill me. I'll just sit over here. That is not our job. And we stay now at like, we stay at the peninsula, we stay at the Ritz, we stay at the Four Seasons. You know what a big difference it is between that and a holiday in or a Hilton, not even in the same universe.

Do you know what a difference it is, the quality of women, friends in my life right now, we are all courageous, hardworking, vulnerable people who make seven figures because we show up and we show up for each other, right? And there's no snickering going on. Everyone is like integrity. That is the cost of admission to the cool club is you're gonna be vulnerable, you're gonna to have empathy, you're going to show up for yourself, you're going to do that hard healing work on your inner child. All that stuff. I'm saying the path to profit is don't settle for less than you know you deserve. I think successful people

see raindrops everywhere and bring out a bucket. They see opportunity, they see possibility and they just go allow it in. Non-successful people are like, it's not possible. There's no reason I would even, so then we just, we put the ceiling on ourself in every regard and we know deep down that it's garbage. And we just don't believe we're worthy of more. And then of course, you see most people then fighting about politics on Facebook all day because they're miserable.

If they just allowed themselves to get busy being resourceful, sending that scary email, posting their own podcast, even though it's messy and mediocre, which mine were too when I said, it's like, do you know the momentum? Do you know the doors will open to gifts in your life? And then you won't be busy worried about all that other stuff because you'll be busy having fun. And I want to say one last thing, which is the biggest payoff to doing all of this. It's not even about, oh, my podcast has these downloads.

Oh, we got married, check. We have this house, check. It's who you become in pushing through your resistance and doing these things. You push through your resistance, you're scared as hell because your parents had the worst divorce and you got married anyway. And you went to therapy with your husband

and you cried it out and you don't run. And you went to therapy with your husband and you cried it out and you don't run. Who do you become from that? That's the win. You pushed through, you published that podcast, you felt like an idiot, that's your win. We're not responsible for like what God does with what we do, we're responsible for the doing of it.

Our job is do the darn thing. Let him take care of what comes of it. And that's the magic. So everyone that I see that's unhappy is waiting and deciding that nothing's gonna happen. So don't wait, be messy, and decide that it is possible and just watch what that does. And keep listening to podcasts like this because what you're doing is helping a lot of people.

Kathy, this was so inspirational. I am pumped, I feel more motivated than ever. I'm very motivated naturally, but now I feel like I can just run a marathon. Oh my God. Let's go. So I'm very excited. You definitely inspired me.

I'm sure you inspired all of our listeners who are too adorable. You look like Jasmine from Aladdin. Oh, thank you. You're a Disney princess. Thank you. And I just had just two of the hardest weeks of my life. And you can see work is such a gift. I just had like, we went through a scary health thing.

And it was really scary, it was really hard, it really, really was and to you know a week and a half ago I was in surgery and all of this yucky stuff and it's amazing how my work lifts me. Like look at this conversation, like what a great distraction. Like you and I weren't just talking about celebrity gossip, I wasn't shopping, right? And look how yummy, right? Like, look what that does for me. So that's the beauty of like doing your stuff in the world. It really, you said it before, you're like, you're fulfilled. I'm like, it is. It is fulfilling. Because it's, it's not just a like, oh, I bought a thing. You know, you buy a blouse. You're

happy for sure. You're making a difference. Yeah. You're impacting that. So, thank you for giving that to me, because I had two really hard weeks, and then I get to do stuff like this, and it makes me happy. Yes, and you'll be happier when it comes out, too. So, where can our listeners go to find more about you and everything that you do? Well, you can come to Instagram,

because I'm very active there, and I'm at kathy.heller, c-h-y-d-h-e-l-l-e-r. And then the podcast is really, really awesome. You can find that everywhere on Apple Podcasts, on wherever you listen to podcasts. And then I have a website, Kathyheller.com, and there's a free quiz there, actually, which if you're trying to figure out

like what would my career dream be, we worked pretty hard on making something really fun, and that's free, and you can take it there. That's it. Cool. So definitely go check that out and check out all her courses. I'll stick links in my show notes so you guys have easy access. Thank you so much, Kathy.

It was a pleasure. You're a pleasure. Thank you. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben Podcast. My co-host and happiness gu Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood.

Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money. Suggestions such as follow the one minute rule. Choose a one word theme for the year or design your summer. We also feature segments like know yourself better where we discuss questions like are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person abundance lever or simplicity lever and every episode includes a quality that enhance your life. California Clauseids specializes in making space for what belongs, with richly textured finishes and quality materials that last.

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