Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPClassic: Donald Miller on Storytelling for Business, How to Clarify Your Message So Customers Engage

Episode Date: March 10, 2023

After Donald Miller’s parents got divorced, his father completely disappeared from his life. For years, Donald blamed himself for his father leaving. His guilt manifested in the form of teenage rebellion: breaking into people’s houses, shoplifting, and defying his religious values. However, he turned his life around when his youth minister David Gentiles asked him to write columns for the church newspaper, which sparked his passion and talent for writing. Now, Donald is a bestselling author and the CEO of two companies. He spends his days helping high-dollar brands refine their storytelling strategy. In this episode of YAP Classic, you’ll learn about how to harness the power of storytelling and what ingredients make a great story.  Donald is widely considered one of the most entertaining and informative speakers in the world. His audiences are challenged to lean into their own story, creatively develop and execute the story of their team, and understand the story of their customers so they can serve them with passion. Don's thoughts on story have deeply influenced leaders and teams for Pantene, Ford/Lincoln, Zaxby's, Chick-fil-A, Steelcase, Intel, Prime Lending, and thousands more. In this episode, Hala and Donald will discuss:  - The four major characters in almost every story   - Why storytelling is such a powerful tool  - What several brands get wrong about telling stories   - Opening and closing story loops  - Never stop talking about the problem your brand is trying to solve  - Steps to establishing yourself as the guide for your customers  - The seven things that happen in every story  - Elements of a great call-to-action  - Why you should follow up with your customers - And other topics… Donald Miller is the CEO of StoryBrand, an agency that has helped more than 10,000 organizations clarify their brand message, and Business Made Simple, an online platform that teaches business professionals everything they need to know to grow their business and enhance their value on the open market.  Donald also hosts the Business Made Simple podcast and is the author of personal essays and books about faith, God, and self-discovery, including the bestsellers Building a StoryBrand, Marketing Made Simple, and his most recent, Hero on a Mission. He lives and works in Nashville, Tennessee with his wife Elizabeth on their estate, Goose Hill.  LinkedIn Secrets Masterclass, Have Job Security For Life: Use code ‘podcast’ for 30% off at yapmedia.io/course. Resources Mentioned:  Business Made Simple: https://www.businessmadesimple.com/ StoryBrand: https://storybrand.com/ Free 5-Minute Marketing Makeover: http://www.5minutemarketingmakeover.com/ Business Made Simple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/business-made-simple-with-donald-miller/id1092751338  Donald’s Books: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=donald+miller+books&gclid=CjwKCAiAxvGfBhB-EiwAMPakqpWbtWazcyT3D0-zfAf9X4SjIddsk--yAwjo-TiLrkyUwizHRplq-xoCdf4QAvD_BwE&hvadid=580628975667&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1017108&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=11272388198254768624&hvtargid=kwd-1038300247&hydadcr=8238_13500835&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_1a89j6lr3o_e  Donald’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donald-miller-storybrand/ Donald’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/donaldmiller/?hl=en  Donald’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/donaldmillerwords/  Donald’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/donaldmiller?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor  Sponsored By:  Elo Health - Go to https://elo.health/ and enter code YAP for 50% off your first month More About Young and Profiting Download Transcripts - youngandprofiting.com   Get Sponsorship Deals - youngandprofiting.com/sponsorships Leave a Review - ratethispodcast.com/yap Watch Videos - youtube.com/c/YoungandProfiting Follow Hala Taha LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Instagram - instagram.com/yapwithhala/ TikTok - tiktok.com/@yapwithhala Twitter - twitter.com/yapwithhala Learn more about YAP Media Agency Services - yapmedia.io/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of YAP is sponsored in part by Shopify. Shopify simplifies selling online and in-person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash profiting. What's up, Yap fam! We've got a Yap classic for you guys today, and we're dusting off Donald Miller's first interview from the Young and Profiting Archives. If you don't know Donald, he's the goat of storytelling. He's the New York Times best-selling author and the CEO of Business Made Simple, an online platform that teaches business professionals how to scale.

Donald has been on Yap twice, he's coming on the show for a third time in a couple of weeks. Goes to show how much I love Donald as a guest. He's always a pleasure, always brings the value. And our new episode with Donald won't disappoint. It drops on March 27th and it's all about how to grow and scale your small business. And given my entrepreneurial audience, I'm sure you guys are going to eat that one up. In today's app classic, Donald and I unpack the power of storytelling, and we walk through the seven steps that you need to tell in every single story. Donald also tells us how to write the best call to actions or CTAs, and we talk about the importance of leveraging testimonials. Donald is the king of storytelling, and as a marketer,

I know firsthand that stories is the number one way to engage and connect with your audience. Stories is how we learn best as humans is how we retain information best and it's one of the most powerful tools we can use when it comes to persuasion and sales. Without further delay, here's my conversation with the legendary Donald Miller. Hey, Donald, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast. So glad to have you here. I'm grateful to be here. Storytelling is like one of my favorite topics. And I'm just so excited because I feel like you're going to have so much insight

to share with everyone. So welcome again. So for anybody who doesn't know who you are, you are a podcast host, you are a CEO, you're an author, you're a multitude of things, and one of the things that you're most known for is helping brands tell their stories. So you've worked with Chick-fil-A, Pantines, countless household brands.

So I would love to introduce yourself to my listeners, give a bit of your background. For my understanding, you grew up in Texas, and you were a bit of a troubled child, and you found a mentor who inspired you to start writing. So I'd love to, you know, understand who you are as a child because it's nothing like who you are today and it will give some inspiration to my listeners, anybody who's on this troubled path who may be able to, you know, come out the other side. So

tell us a bit about your upbringing and your childhood. Yeah, well, I had no shot at any form of success. If you took a snapshot of my junior high high school years, you would say this kid's going nowhere fast. And I had this youth pastor at my local church who said, Don, I'd love for you to write the guest column in this little bitty youth group newsletter. I mean, it was probably 50 people subscribed to it. I wrote it. I got great feedback from like five people and I thought, I'm good at one thing and it's writing. And of course, that

was not true at the time, but at least I was delusionaly optimistic to think I could hone it into a craft. And I did so. And so I wrote a bunch of books. And my second book was called Blue Like Jazz. And it stayed on the New York Times best sales list for like 42 weeks if you can believe it. Now I just fast forwarded 15 years, you know, by the time that happened there was a lot of writing in there and then in order to keep writing books and keep selling books quite honestly. I studied story and how story works and how story keeps a person I studied story and how story works and how story keeps a person turning the pages. And I just became a story junkie.

I just read every book I could, took every course I could on story in order to be a better writer. So I kept writing books and those books did well, but by about the seventh or eighth memoir, I ran out of things to say. And Accenture, this giant consulting firm called me and said, Don, we know you know a lot about story. Could you help us figure out how to overlap a project management system and story structure together? In other words, we want to invite United and Continental to

merge as an airline. Could you help us figure out how to create a narrative around something like that? And I did, I created a curriculum, and then realized really quickly this affects marketing and messaging and created a curriculum around the way companies can use stories to engage customers and wrote a book and it sold half a million copies. And now I'm grateful to say,

somehow that's what I've ended up doing with the last seven, eight years of my life is helping companies invite people into a better story. And I absolutely love it because it unites your sales and marketing, but it also, there's nothing sleazy about story. There's nothing aggressive about it. It's just a technique that people pay a lot of attention to at the theater, watching Netflix, reading books, and if stories can use that,

they don't have to be sleazy or aggressive, but everybody suddenly is attracted to their brand. And so I'm grateful to have this weird non-linear journey toward what I'm doing now. Yeah, it's really cool. And I'd love to just step back and focus on that journey a bit, because for my understanding, you didn't grow up with a father figure. And that's been a big part of your life. And also a big part of giving back in your life, you started the mentoring project, which really focuses on youth who don't have a father.

So I'd love to hear a bit about that from you. And why that's been so powerful and the importance of a mentor and kind of like the state of America in terms of like fatherless figures and why you think that's a problem and why you're trying to help solve that problem. Yeah, that's a huge topic.

You know, in stories, Hala, there's really four major characters. There is the hero, or probably let me start over, there's the victim. And the victim is the person who has been kidnapped, they're being bullied. You know, if the person is the person who has been kidnapped, they're being bullied, you know, if it's the person in the story who needs to be rescued, then there's the villain, and that's the evil person who's trying to destroy the victim. And then there's the hero who's

combating the villain, and then there's the guide who has a backstory of success, and it's now helping the hero in their fight against the villain. Those are the four major characters in stories. And those characters exist in stories four major characters in stories. And those characters exist in stories because they exist in me. It's not like there are villains out there and there are victims out there and there are heroes out there

and there are guides out there. Actually, every human being you meet has all four characters inside them. And on any given day, they could play all four characters. If I'm caught in traffic like I was about 20 minutes ago, I'm a victim, right? And woe is me and I feel sorry for myself. If I run a red light and honk at somebody and nearly hit a pedestrian, I'm a villain.

There's no question about it. If I'm a hero and I help an old lady cross the street and and late to this interview because I did a nice thing, well then I'm a hero. If I'm a guide and I give somebody advice on how to write a book so that they can win, and it's sacrificial of me to do that, then I'm the guide. You know, we play all those characters every day, and the reality is, the more we play the hero, the better our life is going to go. The more we play the guide, the better our life is going to go.

The more we play the victim, the worse our life is going to go, and the more we play the villain, the worse our life is going to go. So to the degree that you play these four characters, your life tells a story. What happens to the victim is they get rescued and they're forgotten about. What happens to the villain is they go to jail or they're imprisoned. What happens to the hero is they're rewarded at the end of the movie. And the guide, of course, is respected because they've helped the hero win and they've laid down their life.

So when you talk about fatherhood and having grown up without a father, really what I grew up with out was a guide, the person who was supposed to be there to help you win and sacrifice of themselves to help you win was absent in my life. And so what I have done is created a mentoring program for fatherless kids so that those guides, every hero needs a guide. And the guide can show up in the story. Oh my gosh, I love how you related that back to stories. It's so perfect. You're so good.

Okay, so let's keep talking about storytelling and the importance of storytelling. So first help us understand why do stories work so well? Like what's the proof out there that demonstrates that stories are really powerful and that we learn best from stories? Yeah, well, the average person spends about 30% of their time day dreaming.

And it's actually a survival mechanism. When you day dream or your mind just checks out or you're staring at your phone, that's your brain recharging. And what your brain is saying is, look, there's nothing in my environment right now that I need in order to survive, therefore I'm going to rest my brain.

And the only thing that can stop a brain from day dreaming 30% of the time is actually story. When you sit down to watch a movie or read a book or listen to a podcast like this one, your brain will stop day dreaming and it will plug in and start paying attention. And the way that the reason that happens is because stories ask questions and then they don't give you the answer until the end. So story asks the question, if you're watching a romcom story says, is this absent-minded buffoon of a man going to be able to get his stuff together to marry the his sweetheart before

his jerk brother marries the sweetheart. That's a story. And, you know, and you pay attention for two hours until the story is resolved. And if it's Game of Thrones or something like that, you're talking about two weeks of plugging in and paying attention. So story has a powerful ability to compel a human brain. There are some rules about story, though. It cannot be confusing. You have to know what the hero wants. The hero has to transform as they encounter these various challenges.

And if you break some of these rules, people will start to daydream during your story. They won't know why they're doing it, but they'll start to daydream. The same is true with brands. If you have not identified what you're helping your customer achieve, and especially if you haven't identified the problem that your brand solves for the hero customer, they will stop paying attention to you.

That has to be crystal clear within seconds of interacting with your brand. And if it's not, then they're gonna stop paying attention. So, story works so well because for over 2000 years, since a guy named Aristotle wrote a book called Poetics, we have recognized stories, the most powerful tool in the universe to compel a human brain. And brands are beginning to discover its ability,

but most brands, they don't get it. They walk in and they try to tell their story. You know, my grandfather started a company and it's 75 years old and we're trying to increase our great places to work metric. None of that stuff has anything to do with the customer. It's all about you. And so what we always say is don't tell your story

and invite customers into a story in which they can experience a transformation and ultimately have their problem resolved in the end. Human beings are drawn to that just like they're drawn to Netflix. I mean, you should think of your company as one of the things that one of the shows on Netflix and you're trying to get people to press on it and engage. I want to dig deep into you mentioned that we have to be concise. And I think you have this phrase that you say, if you confuse, you lose. So let's talk about why it's important not to stuff our messaging with so much content.

I know a lot of people, they try to give every element of the story and they don't realize that sometimes less is more because if you confuse people, you've lost them. So talk to us about why we need to be really clear, really concise when it comes to our messaging. Yeah, you know, people think of stories as being about something and they, of course, are about something. But the real power of a good storyteller is not in what they say, it's in what they leave out.

It's in what they don't say. Storytellers have to make decisions and they leave enormous amounts of material, if you will, on the cutting room floor. They don't say things. So, in other words, if Jason born wanted to know who he really was, but he also wanted to lose 35 pounds and he also wanted to run a marathon and he also wanted to marry his sweetheart and he also wanted to adopt a cat. You would lose the audience because it's about too many things. And I think that's a mistake most brands make.

Their brand is about too many things. It's about delivering too much value or too many things of value to the customer. So the customer can't really get their mind around what your brand is about. If you want to own what I call mental real estate, that is you want somebody to think of you when they're thinking of whatever it is that you sell, you want to sort of own a piece

of territory. And specifically what that needs to be is you need to own a problem. And everybody listening, if you want to be a young professional who skyrockets in their career, own a problem. So you know, this week I was putting together some furniture, and I walked into my shop, my tool shed, and I looked for very specific tools. I was looking for a crescent wrench. I was looking for an Allen wrench.

I was looking for this. Nothing was ambiguous. I knew which tools I needed in order to do the work I needed to do. And that's how you want to think of your brand. If you have a leaky roof, you know you're going to call X brand. If you want somebody to pick up your dry cleaning so you don't have to drop it off, this is the brand that does it.

If you want a flat screen TV that looks like a piece of art, you know this is the specific thing. And so a lot of times when you look at brands, you know, they have taglines like like trust is the commodity we exchange. Well, if your tagline is trust is the commodity we exchange, I have no idea what problem you solve. And there's no reason for me to do business with you. So we come up with these cute and clever and sometimes rather poetic things to say about our businesses. But ultimately, unless we're explaining the problem that we solve and very clear terms, people are going to pass us by.

So clarity is the key. If you confuse, you lose. And then people are focusing on the wrong things, like you said. So it's just a whole mess. So let's talk about story loops, because I know that you say that's a foundation of a story and we have to open and close story loops. So I'd love for you to explain that. Tell us about that and how we can use that in our stories.

Yeah, so the way of story hooks you is it opens and closes story loops. So, you know, let's go back to Jason Bourne because we've probably all seen at least one of the 53 franchise movies that they've made about that. But, you know, Jason Bourne wants to know who he is. That's a story loop. And so we're gonna open the story loop

of who is Jason Bourne, what's his real identity, where this guy come from. We're not going to close that by the way, till the end of the movie, because the second we close it, the movie's over. So let's just call that the main story loop. Well, within the main story loop, though, we have to have smaller story loops

that open and close in order to drive the narrative toward the climactic scene. So Jason Bourne wants to know who he is, but we're not going to tell you, tell toward the climactic scene. So Jason Borin wants to know who he is, but we're not gonna tell you to tell the climactic scene at the end. But we're gonna put him in a hotel room and all of a sudden bullets are gonna fly through the hotel room door

and he's gotta get out of the room. So we open a story loop, how's Jason Borin gonna get out of the room? And he jumps out of window and he lands on a motorcycle, we can close the story loop. He is now out of the room. Now we open another one when two other motorcycles show up behind him and they're chasing him and he's now he's in a motorcycle, we can close the story loop. He is now out of the room. Now we open another one when two other motorcycles show up behind him

and they're chasing him and now he's in a motorcycle chase. So we open that, we're gonna close it when he, whatever drives this motorcycle into the river and makes him think he drowned, but he didn't really drown. He really is hiding under a tire or something like that. And then he gets out of the river,

but that's closed story loop. Then he runs and hides in a farm house where he meets another spy who happens to be an attractive woman and there's chemistry between them. So now we open to love story story loop. And you keep opening and closing these story loops all the way through the narrative

until you finally close the main story loop. And so what we do is we help businesses figure out how to structure their own narrative in the same way. What is the big story loop that you're opening that people can only close if they buy your product? And then inside of that story loop, what is this email sales letter opening and closing? You know, is it a bonus that's going away?

Is it, you know, what is it? Your sales reps, how do your sales reps open a story loop over a conversation at lunch that can only be closed if people buy your product? You're constantly opening and closing story loops. The opening and closing of story loops is the only thing that actually motivates human behavior. You know, for instance, hunger is a story loop.

Lunch closes it. Feeling lazy is a story loop, getting out of bed closes it. Everything is driven by the opening and closing of story loops. So if everybody on your team knows how to open a narrative story loop, they know how to motivate human behavior. That's why it's so important to be a good storyteller if you want to win in the world today. Let's hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea but you don't know how to move forward with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree isn't the only path to success.

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And once you solve that problem for good, you're out of business, right? So talk about how you need to continue to solve our customers problem or else they won't be our customer anymore because there's no problem to solve. Yeah, they definitely won't be your customer anymore. The only reason people open their wallets and spend money is to solve a problem. The only reason they call your sales rep back is to solve a problem. The only reason they go to your website is to solve a problem. The only reason they give you their email address so they can get a free lead generator,

if you will, is to solve a problem. That's it. If they don't sense that you can help them solve a problem, they will not part with their money. Because again, the opening of the story loop, which is a problem, is the only thing that motivates human behavior. So what I always say is own a problem. What problem do you own? What problem does every product in your company own? What problem does each division own? Then you really want to repeat with words that we saw this problem over and over and over and over and over. That's the only way to build a brand.

You know, if I told you a story that had no problem in it, it wouldn't make any sense. Like if I said, you know, a buddy of mine got a call from some friends. He lives in LA and they said, hey, come down to the beach and play volleyball. We're going to play volleyball. You know, as he goes down, he sees them as he's walking down the beach. He plays volleyball, the games in an attie. Somebody says, he's there hanging for lunch. He said, yeah, it's Tuesday.

It's Taco Tuesday. There's a Taco truck cross street. Let's get some tacos. Yeah, I need some tacos. At some point, you're gonna stop listening to this story because there's no problem. Everything is just going his way. But if we said, my buddy got a call,

said, come down to the beach, play volleyball. He's walking down to the beach and an earthquake hits. And now he's down on all four and he's looking down to the beach and the beach opens up and half his friends fall into the hole in the beach. Now we got a story. How is he going to get him out of the hole? Who's going to live? How is he going to get through this? You know, all those, that's how a movie works. It's problem after problem after problem after problem after problem. The business tip for us here for everybody listening is when you stop talking about your customers problems, they stop giving you money.

And you have to know what problem you solve and you have to talk about it over and over and over. There the hero in the story, trying to solve a problem, you're the guide who has already solved that problem and can help them come to a resolution themselves. That's how we need to think of our roles as young professionals. So let's stick on that. Let's stick on the role of hero and guide before I have you walk through all seven steps, because I definitely want my listeners to hear all seven steps. So from my understanding, the business is the guide. The hero is the customer.

But then I'm curious, so many brands have a face, right? Even young and profiting, I'm the face of Yap Media, young and profiting. So where does the CEO, the face of the brand sit in all of this? Well, your brand can have a face or it doesn't have to. There's no difference. It's not a negative if you do. I happen to

be the face of my brand. You're the face of your brand. But what the face of the brand needs to be is a guide. You need to be known as a guide. And there are two things that a guide does inside of a story to become the guide, if you will. The guide needs to express or demonstrate empathy. The guide needs to express or demonstrate empathy and really, that's just compassion. The guide needs to open their heart and say, it hurts me that my customers are dealing with this. It hurts me that young professionals don't know how to move up in their career

and quite honestly college doesn't teach them. And they've paid a bunch of money and they're getting more out of your podcast than they are out of Harvard business. I pretty much believe that. And so that's not right. And as soon as you have a compassion for them, you've done the first step in becoming the guy.

The second is you have to actually demonstrate competency or authority. You have to know what you're doing and you have to be able to say, look, here's a path that you can take as a young professional to succeed in life. And that path has to work. You've got to know what you're doing.

But when we meet somebody who is compassionate about our struggle, but they can also turn around and say, I can get you out of this. And I know how to get you out. And I have tools that will help you no longer struggle with this. And it's worked for thousands of other people, and it will work for you. That's the exact person that every hero is looking for. What's fascinating is that heroes are actually not looking for other heroes. So then we come in and we say, I'm trying to build a brand,

and it's going really great. My grandfather started it, and I've got capital, private equities helping me out, and we're gonna try, everybody hears you talking, and they say, well, this just sounds like another hero. Let me give you an example. Let's say you go to a cocktail party, and you meet two people, they do the exact same thing. They have the exact same business.

They charge the exact same amount of money, and they have the exact same quality product, okay? So you go to the first, what when you say, what do you do? And they say, well, I'm an ad home chef. You know, I come to your house and I cook. And they say, that's fascinating. You know, where did you go to school? So I went to the culinary school in New York and then I studied in France for a year.

Oh, you're kidding. You were in France? Were you in Paris? Yes, I was actually in Paris. Wow. My wife and I are going to the French Open. Do you like tennis? You're just having a conversation.

But let's say you go to the second person, you say, what do you do? And they say, well, you know how most families don't eat together anymore? And when they do, they don't eat healthy. I'm an at-home chef. I come to your house and I cook so that you and your family consider on the dinner tables, stress-free, have a delightful conversation. And by the way, when you're done eating, you don't have to feel guilty because the food I eat is actually very good for you.

I really bring families together around a table and I take away the stress of having to figure out what's for dinner tonight. Who's gonna do more business? The person who told you they went to chef school in France or the person who offered to solve a problem? The person who offered to solve a problem and also it goes to the golden rule of friendship,

which is people want to hear about themselves, people want to talk about themselves, they don't want to hear about you and you. Well, and I'll say this, I think you're right. I will add one thing to the golden rule of friendship. People want to talk about themselves and think about themselves first. And then when you give them the opportunity to do that, they suddenly become curious about you. And other words, what you really want, which is to talk about yourself, you can't have right away. Because as soon as you make that dinner and bring that family together and they go to bed that night going, my gosh, this is the, that's the best 200 bucks we've ever spent as a family. I wonder what, how our story is. And the next time you're over,

they're sitting there in the kitchen early and they're going, okay, tell us about yourself. How did you learn to make a sauce like this? And you say, well, my mom actually taught me to make this sauce. And they're like, tell us about your mom. Suddenly, they're dying to know about you. And the reason they're dying to know about you is because they finally met a guide

who can help them solve a problem and who was more interested in solving their problem than in sharing their own story. You know, the rule is, if you're healthy and you're strong, you think about others, but if you're hurt and you're wounded, you think about yourself because you're in pain. It's a natural thing to do. It's not, there's nothing wrong with it. But once we get healthy and we've got some wins under our belt and we're strong, I'm going to die in 30, 40 years. I don't have time to sit and think about myself. I want to think about other people, you know, and I

want to leave a legacy in the hearts of the people around me. That's who we're looking for. And the sooner and earlier we can reach that kind of maturity. And again, you can't fake it. It doesn't work. You're going to get found out. But if you can really get outside of yourself for a minute and think about the people around you, you're going to become the leader that people really enjoy interacting with. Hmm. I think that's so powerful. So let's get into the seven steps. I'd love for you to walk us through the seven steps. I might pause and ask for an example or something,

but I'll just let you take the floor and give us these seven steps. We're all about actionable advice, so if you love this stuff. Well, these are the seven things that happen in every story. And because they happen in every story, we know it's a formula. We know it's a formula that works. I mean, this formula is going to get people's attention and cause them to pause and pay attention to you as a leader or you as a brand. The first thing that happens, there's a character.

That character wants something and they have to want something specific. They can't want too many things and they can't want something elusive. They have to want something. They wanna marry the woman, they wanna win the championship, they wanna disarm the bomb, they want to find their way back home.

Whatever, the movie is about something. It's about a girl or a guy who wants something. And if you add too many things, it's not gonna work. So that's the rule. What that means is we need to identify something our characters want, our customers. What do they want? I own a company called Business Made Simple.

We do small business coaching. I don't actually coach you, but we certify coaches who can coach you. So we know our customer wants to be coached, but we certify coaches who can coach you. So we know our customer wants to be coached, right? And then the next thing that has to happen is there has to be a problem. And I already talked about this in this interview. The problem has to be very frustrating and it's causing people to want coaching or whatever. They feel like they're spinning their wheels, they feel like they can't, they don't know how to scale up. They feel like business is a mystery.

You know, whatever it is, but we need to identify that problem and talk about it because it's gonna cause them to want the very thing that we offer. And then we are able to position ourselves in the story as the guide. And we are able to do that by saying, business should not be like a mystery to you.

It should be very simple. You should look at a business and be able to understand what's wrong with it within five minutes. There should be no mystery because there isn't. And There's no mystery in my business and I can teach you easily how there could be no mystery in yours. You shouldn't be struggling like this. That's me practicing empathy and demonstrating competency. I position myself as a guide. Then step four, if you want to give a plan and I like personally three step plans. So Hala, in order to work with you, step one is this, step two is this, step three is this.

And what we find is that when we give people a path to follow, they actually take the path. But if we ask them to jump across the creek, they don't do it, because they're afraid they might get wet. So you wanna give them a three-step plan. And then a really strong direct call to action. You know, subscribe to our platform today, hire one of our coaches today. They need to be very specific calls to action that people can take in order to solve their problem.

And then there's two more. One is success and one is failure. We have to give people a vision of what their life can look like if they do take action and also a vision for what their life is going to look like if they don't, because if there's not stakes in the story, that is if nothing can be won or lost based on whether or not I do business with you, nobody will do business with you. I'm only doing business with you to achieve something good and keep away from a negative

consequence. But as a business, if we've not spelled out what the something good is and what the negative consequences, I wouldn't expect anybody to do business with us. Now what's interesting about those seven steps that I just identified is those are the seven steps that exist in every movie that you're going to watch. If you end up back at the theater this summer, then you're going to see those seven steps in every movie. And when you really look at a very good brand, a brand that's making millions and hundreds of millions of dollars, you will see those seven steps and those seven pieces of communication in everything that they say. And in my opinion, those sound bites that you derive

from those seven steps of story are the sound bites that you want to repeat over and over in your messaging and your marketing. That is how you make the customer the hero and that is how you invite customers into a story. So that's all really, really helpful. I guess the one question that I have is do all seven elements need to be in every

asset. So like, okay, so how do we do it? Like, how do we know do people need to get it in order? Like, how does that work? You don't need it in order. Really, what those seven steps are, if you will, they're like chords on a guitar. Now, if you know those seven chords, do you have to use all seven of them in every song? No, you can use three, you can use one, you know, if you're Tracy Chabin, you can use two and write incredible songs. You know, so there's, you know, the seven chords are science. What you're asking a question, you're asking is, how do you create art? And I would say, well, you use those seven chords and everything else is subjective. You know, so should your tagline be the problem?

It can be. There's not a formula for it. But I will say as soon as you use a chord that isn't a real chord, everybody in the audience is gonna know it because it's gonna sound terrible. And those are the only seven chords. There are no others.

And as long as you're communicating on a Facebook ad and a podcast intro, and as long as you're communicating on a Facebook ad, and a podcast intro, and as long as you're communicating something from those seven chords, you're gonna connect with the audience. But no, they don't all have to be there, and they don't have to be in a specific order. Great. Okay, so then I guess the other question that I have

is call to actions. I know that they're super important, they need to be strong. Can you give us an example of a good call to actions. I know that they're super important. They need to be strong. Can you give us an example of a good call to action versus like a passive wine and how can we have strong call to actions? Yeah, so a good call to action is schedule an appointment or by now or call a sales rep. So very action oriented. It's action oriented, but it's also it it's the equivalent, Hala, I've been married for eight years, but I remember when I was dating, I would say things like, hey,

do you want to get coffee some time or would you like to crack? I would make it very elusive as to whether or not I was asking this girl out. And it never worked. They were always like, I don't know, you're making it awkward. And as never worked. It was always, they were always like, I don't know, you're making it awkward. I, you know, and as soon as I learned to say, hey, I've really

enjoyed talking to you. Can I take you on a date sometime? Can I buy you dinner? You know, yes, many girls would say, actually, no, I'm seeing somebody or Don that, that is so sweet. You know, I don't think I'm up for dating right now. It was always very clear. And I think even though I would get rejected, there were so many girls who would say, yes, I would love to go on a date with you because everything was clear. And I think that's what we want to do with our customers. We want to be able to say, look, in no uncertain terms, I'm looking for a financial transaction that solves your problem.

You've got a leaky roof. I've got stuff to put on your roof, so it doesn't leak for 500 bucks, I could come to your house Thursday and do it. What we're not doing is giving somebody something to accept or reject. So calls to action are incredibly important. Now passive aggressive calls to action are things on our website that say things like learn more or get started. Those are actually passive aggressive calls to action.

And sometimes people want to learn more, but basically they don't actually know where you want this relationship to go. And one reality that's going to be very uncomfortable for almost everybody listening to here is that business relationships are by nature transactional relationships. It is about them giving you money in exchange for the solution to a problem. That's what it's about. Therefore, if you position your business as being friends with your customer,

I think you're being inauthentic. Friendship can come from a transactional relationship, but often does. Many of my clients are very, very good friends of mine now, but it started by being authentic. And authenticity is, this is a business, and I have a solution to your problem, and I'm gonna be professional, I'm gonna be kind,

but I'm not gonna act like we're more intimate than we actually are. Now, if we become friends down the road, then that authentically can happen. And I think businesses that say, look, we love our customers and we just wanna be be friends and it's all about relationship. I think they're being incredibly unauthentic and people can smell it out and I've never once seen it work. We'll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.

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Again, that Shopify.com-profiting Shopify.com-proash-profiting, Shopify.com-sash-profiting, all lower case. This is Possibility powered by Shopify. Hmm, I think that's super interesting. Let's talk about pricing. Like, is there a point in the story where we give our pricing? I know you said we don't have to do it in order, but is there something with pricing and storytelling that we should be aware of? Well, there's just some principles

that I've learned doing business over the years. The main principle is that people do not respect things they don't pay for. It's very important as young business professionals that we understand that almost everybody listening to this podcast is underpricing their materials. That you're not asking enough for it. And when you don't ask enough for it,

people don't respect it. It was very hard, because I'm by nature how I'm a people pleaser. I want to be liked by people, I like people, and I just don't like charging. I don't like charging money for things. And I realize recently, you know what you're doing, Don, is you're using not charging people money as a control mechanism because if you give them something

very valuable and they don't pay for it, you have leverage over them. And you now control them in some way. Let's not pretend you're being generous. And I thought, gosh, that was really convicting. And so these days I charge, you know, I mean, I've always charged. I've got 30 employees. I have to charge. But I don't feel bad about charging. I feel good about it. So that's the main thing is that the hero needs to put skin in the game. And if you aren't charging, you're letting them take further and further steps without putting skin in the game.

I've had thousands of people come to Nashville, Tennessee for my workshops. And probably have let, I know, 10, 15 of them in for free. These are friends, family members. Well, all those 10 or 15, it's a really good workshop. And only three or four of them have looked at their phone or left for an hour at a time or taken long bathroom breaks or didn't get into a small group when they were supposed to. Every person who disengaged from my workshop, every single one of them got in for free.

Everybody who paid money, they had skin in the game and they got more out of it. And we need to remember that about our products, too. I think that's so true. I mean, I remember starting businesses when I was younger and not charging enough for them and then you know You learn your lesson quick to your point and also the people who pay less Sometimes tend to be the most difficult customer That's right. I guarantee if you have a $20 product you can have a lot of customer service problems If you have a $20,000 product nobody's gonna call you exactly. It's so strange. It's so strange how that works

It's very very strange. Okay, so let's get a real life example of these seven sound bites. Like give us maybe Pantene Chick-fil-A, like walk us through one of the companies you've worked with or any company and what their seven sound bites are like. Yeah, well, you know, right now the company, I look at my left and there's a big whiteboard over here,

is the Berkshire Hathaway Home Services. So Berkshire Hathaway has 51,000 real estate agents all over the world. And we are helping them transform so that they are the guides and the customer is the hero. So one of the things we do is we say, okay, well, you need to do a little intake. If somebody is looking for a home, one of the first questions that you want to ask, or you want to find out in the intake interview, what problem are you trying to solve? And so if Nancy, our homeowner,

is absolutely sick of only having one sink in the master bathroom. She shares the sink with her husband, not only that, they have kids who are running in and out there. It's one sink and it's two clogged. Well, I'm listening to Nancy and I'm going, okay, I know Nancy's interested in a good mortgage rate. She's interested in being a good part of town, but I think what she's really interested

in is two sinks in that stinking bathroom. That's what she's interested in. And then I hear the story of Greg, Greg is Nancy's husband and he got up at three in the morning one night, realized that he let the dog out to use the bathroom, but the dog didn't come back and they don't have a backyard fence. And he got up 10 degrees and in his pajamas and a flashlight looking for that dog and finally found him three houses over

and brought the dog back. So Greg needs a fence. Now I know what kind of house to sell Nancy and Greg. Two sinks and a fence is what we're looking for. But really, so now I know the problem they're trying to solve, I position myself as a guide and I'm just gonna say to them, you know, Nancy, if you find a house with two sinks, if I can find a house with two sinks, I think we solved your problem.

Greg, I think, you know, I want to empathize. You should not have to deal with one sink. Nancy, that is a crime. Nobody should have to deal with one sink, especially with a husband as big as Greg. He's going to, he's like a bearing here, right? So and Greg. He's going to be like a bear in here, right? So and then Greg, you should not be walking around two in the morning and you're pajamas. You need a fence. You're going to love having a fence.

I want to be able to really help them understand. I have heard your problem. It is now my problem and I'm going to solve that problem. And when they hear that, rather than I ignore their problems, then I just think their problems are everybody else's. They want a good mortgage rate and they want to be in a good school district. But they're hearing me say, you're not listening.

And in order to be guides, we've got to be really good listeners. So I've identified what they want. I've identified what their problems are. I position myself as the guide, and I say, look, here's how I'd like to do this. Every first Saturday of the month, I'd like to get out and look at six homes. And we're gonna find a home that's right for you.

When we find a home that's right for you, we're gonna have the paperwork ready and we're gonna be able to make an offer very quickly on that home and steal it from anybody else. And number three is I'm gonna hand you the keys to that home. It's a three-step process. Nancy Greg, it's actually very easy to buy a house as long as you let me guide you.

And then I say, do you wanna work with me as a real station? I wanna be the exclusive person to find you at home. That's my call to action. And when they say, yes, I say great. You're not gonna have a home with one sink. You're not gonna have a home without a fence. And I think in about six weeks, we're gonna be standing in a beautiful home that's the home of your dreams, going to have two sinks in a fence. I promise you that. What I do, I just gave them a vision

for what their life is not going to look like. And I gave them a vision what their life will look like. All seven steps in one five minute conversation. And now I've invited them into a story. Now, there's one more thing that I want to do after they buy the home and a real estate agent, probably we'll never see them again. I'm actually gonna either, if it was a really nice home, let's say it's a million dollar home, I'm gonna call them and I'm gonna say, hey, do you guys mind if I swing by this coming Saturday?

There's absolutely no reason for me to swing by. No reason. I've got the money. They cannot get me any more money. No reason. I've got the money. They cannot get me any more money. I'm gonna go buy and I'm gonna say, hey, Greg Nancy, I just wanted to see your home, see how it was working out for you

and make sure everything was great. Can I just say something? The way that you guys decided you wanted to go for your dream home and you wanted to treat your family and you wanted to make a good financial investment, that's the kind of family I like working with. You guys are an exceptional family. Thanks for letting me be part of this story. If you ever need anything, call me. That follow-up visit, Hala. In a story, the guide comes back

into the story and affirms the transformation of the hero. It's what many, many salespeople fail to get. They don't do it. That family will now tell 10 times more people about that real estate agent than they would have if he would not have stopped by. It closes the story loop in their mind and it affirms that they went on a journey and they are now different people than they were at the beginning.

And only the guide can do that. And so we're working with Berkshire Hathaway, 51,000 real estate agents to teach them how to do that. And they're going to, they're gonna sell a lot more homes because of it. I love that follow-up tip. How can we use that follow-up tip if it's like a recurring customer,

like if it's a... Well, in a lightweight, it's not as powerful, but it is powerful, even a follow-up email. A week after they buy a digital asset from you, have an automated email that goes out and says, listen, here's the kind of people that we find by our products. They're people who are hard working. They're people who want to get ahead.

They're people who want to provide for families. They're people who see the American dream and they go get it. Not everybody is wired that way. In fact, we find it's about 5% of the population. And I just want to congratulate you on being in the 5% that are actually driving the economy in this country. And I'm grateful to know you. That's it, right? You write that email, it's automated, and people feel affirmed, and you mean it. You know, it's not a, it's, that's the other thing is you got to mean it. And, you know, we really do have to enter into this. These aren't

tactics on how to manipulate people. They're tactics on how to guide somebody into a story. So talk to us about how we can then, like what is the importance of customer testimonials, customer references, how should we integrate those stories into our brand? And why are they so powerful? Well, you want to make sure that your customer testimonials

are affirming one of the seven plot points in the story. So a customer needs to say, you know, I had this problem, but how I helped me solve it. My life was going in the wrong direction, but you know, she helped me experience this scene in my life that was really beautiful. Even your customer testimonials,

what you're actually listening for are the seven elements of story. And the other thing that rule about customer testimonials you want them to be short. People scan them. And here's another tip. Write them for the customer. They're not writers.

So if they send you a testimonial, shorten it, clean it up, send it back to them, say, do you approve of this? Is this essentially how you feel about the product? Yes, would you mind if I put your name to this? And because they're not writers, you know, you know better probably how to capture what they're trying to say than they do themselves.

Okay, so I want to talk about other elements to a brand aside from the storytelling. So there's a brand name itself. There's a one liner, the tagline, and there's a mission statement. I would love to get your guidance on these types of items. Well, again, everything should come out of the seven elements. So, well, let me just give you this. When I go to your website, what I need your website to do is pass what I call the grunt test. So the grunt test is if I take a laptop and I put it in your lap and I open it up to your website,

I need to be able to answer three questions within eight seconds. Those questions are what do you offer? How will it make my life better and what do I need to do to buy it? What do you offer? How will it make my life better and what do I need to do to buy it?

If I go to your website and Above the fold cannot answer those three questions. I think you're you're confusing everybody about what you do and what you sell Here's a great formula for a mission statement. We will accomplish X by X because of X Just keep it really short We're gonna have 250,000 people in our platform by January of 2025 because everybody deserves access to a life-changing business education. That's a good mission statement. What most mission statements don't have is a mission. There's no mission. It's

like we're going to increase shareholder value by providing excellent service. It's like it's written by lawyers. It's terrible. Nobody can get behind it or nobody knows what to do after they read the mission statement. You would think if you read a mission statement, you would know what to do after you read it. But most mission statements you read it and it's like, I have no idea how to behave or what to do or any of this based on this mission statement.

So, clarity is the key. Clarity, clarity, clarity. And then any tips on naming your brand? Does the name really matter? Well, I do, but it does matter. I think if you name, let me give you an example. I met a guy recently and I bought some kitchen knives from him. He has a boutique kitchen knife making store, if you will.

It's not a story, he just sells them online. And I bought a chef's knife and I bought a pairing knife and I bought, you know, I'm trying to get better in the kitchen. And his knife company is called Baby Knives. Literally, Baby Knives. And I said, okay, why is these are beautiful knives? They're not for babies.

Why is your, why is your knife company called Baby Knives? He said, well, my nickname when I was a little kid was baby. And so I wanted the name to reflect, you know me, and so I called it baby knives. And I just said, gosh, I said, you know, it's so confusing because babies don't buy knives and we try to keep knives away from our babies.

Because I know, but you know what's my name when I was kid? Well, what you're telling me is you named your company something that has to be explained. The only problem is you're not around to explain it to the millions of people you want to find out about your company. And so what I told him is what I'll tell everybody listening. If he would have called it boutique knives or he lives out in the wilderness, wilderness knives or whatever, nobody would have been confused. At least you got the word knives in the company, name.

That's good, because he sells knives. But what I told him was, you're gonna have to spend a lot more money and work a lot harder to build this brand because you call it baby knives. It doesn't mean it's not gonna be successful. Uber is successful and they don't say on demand taxi services. It's not the name of their company,

but they had to spend hundreds of millions of dollars. And they had to make life very, very easy in order for it to grow. It could have grown faster. So we need to be aware of that. Yes, you can have a a company name that is poetic and sounds beautiful, but you're gonna have to work really hard in order to build it. Now, once it's built and you become a household name, the problem solved. It's fine. So I think the question is,

business made simple is the name of my company. What do you think we do? Right? It's not a... Yeah, you don't be gas. It's not Acme Curriculum Company. That's not what we call ourselves. We call ourselves business-made simple because we make business simple. You work with young professionals.

It's in the name. So I like names that say what you do. And if you don't have that, then what you want is a name that is elusive and beautiful, whatever you want it to be, and a tagline that says what you do. Baby knives, the best kitchen knives in the world. Okay, well, that helps. It helps a great deal.

So the idea is what we teach our people when we're training them is you want to constantly be asking yourself, how is it that I could be misunderstood? And if it's possible that you can be misunderstood, you want to fix that. Because it's like Swiss cheese and you got an army marching across the Swiss cheese. Everything, every way you're misunderstood is a giant hole that some of your customers are going to fall into before they get to the cash register. So social media, do you have any formulas for telling a good story in your social media posts? Yeah, you know for telling a good story in your social media posts?

Yeah, you know, there's one thing that I really love. There's a lot of things you can do with social media, but the one thing that I really love that works over and over is images and stories of people who have succeeded after using your product. So if you just, my social media has pictures of my dog, pictures of my wife. It's a terrible example, but it's my personal social media. BusinessMadeSimple has its own social media instead of Storybrand, my other two companies.

But really what you want to do is show images. If you're a real estate agent, I would have couples standing in front of their dream home. That would be my exclusive social media feed. Picture after picture after picture. Because what I'm doing is I'm showing the climactic scene and somebody else's story that you can also experience yourself. And that's what you want to do is here's where I take people, here's where I take people, here's where I take people, here's where I take people,

here's where I take people, over and over in your social media until it's just branded in the mind of everybody who's following you. This is where I take people. This is what their life looks like after they finish using my product. So show the transformation. Show the end of it. Show the end of the story. I love that. The last question I ask, oh my guest, Donald, is what is your secret to profiting in life? Secret to profiting in life is understanding for me personally that life is more about experiencing meaning

than it is about being successful. And I take Victor Frankl's advice when he talks about experiencing meaning. He has a three-part formula. The first is a project that you work on that hopefully is sacrificial and helps other people. An optimistic or redemptive perspective on all challenges that you face, even tragedies, and share your life with others. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, you do those three things.

And it's a rich life. I read Victor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning 10 Years ago. And I, you know, there's been tragic days. I mean, days when I've cried myself to sleep, my friend of mine took his life, you know, just really hard stuff. But there's not been a single day when I haven't woken up and felt a deep sense that I was supposed to be here, and I was here for a reason. And it's made all the difference. So to me, that's about it. Cool. And where can our listeners go to learn more about you and everything that you do?

Well, we had a lot of marketing advice. And one of the best things I did, I put out a free lead generator, and it's just three fantastic videos, and it's at 5minutemarketingmakeover.com. You can either spell it out or use the number, but 5minutemarketingmakeover.com will help you figure out how to talk about your company. Awesome. Well, I can't wait to have you back on. I feel like there's so many other topics

we could dive into in terms of general. Let's make it happen again. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Tom. I appreciate it. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben

Podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money, suggestions such as follow the one-minute rule. Choose a one-word theme for the year or design your summer. We also feature segments like know yourself better where we discuss

questions like are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever or simplicity lever, and every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick easy shortcut to more happiness. Listen and follow the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin. Ever notice what happens when your home is beautifully organized? You have more space, more room to breathe. At California Closets, our designers note just what questions to ask to create exactly what you want. Your personalized experience includes custom design and installation to deliver a result

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