Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPLive: Detecting the Truth with Ex-FBI Agent Dr. Jack Schafer | Uncut Version

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

Join Hala for a Live Young and Profiting Podcast Episode with Dr. Jack Schafer Former FBI Agent. They will discuss his experience with domestic and international criminals and the tactics he used to extract the truth.   Social Media:   Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Follow Hala on ClubHouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can find Ole Body Care products in the store or online. Ole Body, Fearless in My Skin. Okay, so you guys are listening to a live episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. We are a number one education podcast across all apps. My name is Halataha. I'm your host. And today we are speaking with Dr. Jack Schaefer.

He is a former FBI agent known as the Spy Catcher. Jack spent 15 years conducting counterintelligence and counterterrorism investigations and seven years as a behavioral analyst for the FBI's National Security Division. Jack today is a psychologist, he's a professor, an intelligence consultant, he's authored six books, including the smash hit, The Like Switch,

which is my all-time favorite book. I've listened to it and read it over ten times. I covered it on Young & Profiting Podcast twice. Jack was my first ever guest on episode one. It was called First Impressions. And I also interviewed him on episode number 64 as well. And I would highly recommend if you guys enjoy this episode to go back and listen to those episodes again. That's number one and number 64. Jack has a new book called The Truths Detector and essentially can be used as a guide to obtain truths

from friends, family members, co-workers, even total strangers, without them ever realizing what you're trying to do. And using his techniques, you can get people to tell you the truth about subjects they would normally keep a secret or lie about. To me personally, this is an extremely important topic, no matter where you are in life,

how we act, how successful we are, even our survival and us thriving is prevailing impacted by our ability to determine if information is true or false. So this is why all of this is so impactful and relevant. So stay tuned to this conversation to uncover the truth during an elicitation, which is the key technique that we're going to learn about today. We're going to learn about bracketing, third party perspectives, presumptive questions,

and more. It's going to be a super interesting conversation. We're also going to dig into why elicitation works psychologically and how to ensure you can create the perfect environment for elicitation to work effectively. So with that, we're gonna get this podcast episode started. Jack, thank you so much for joining me for the third time on Younger Profiting Podcast. You are the guest who has been on the show the most officially in this moment.

So thank you so much for joining me once again. Well, thank you for having me back. Yes, well, you are a very fascinating and interesting guy. I love speaking with you. I think people are going to really enjoy this conversation. So let's dive into your latest topic. And that's truth detection. As I mentioned in the intro, we cover the like switch extensively in the last two interviews. So the main technique is called elicitation. And when I was first studying about this topic and getting ready for this interview, when I heard the word elicitation, it was so overwhelming and it sounded so complicated and intimidating and complex. And I really like glazed over the

information because it was hard for me to grasp even just that word like elicitation. It was just very intimidating to me. But as I studied more, I realized it's really simple. It was an approach designed to elicit a truthful response from people. That's why it's called elicitation. It's called elicitation because it elicits a truthful response.

So it's not that complicated. And so I'd love for you to explain this further. And I know that you have an analogy about an automobile tracking device. So I thought that'd be a good way to start if you could explain that analogy and help us just understand elicitation and make it less fearful for all of us to understand.

Well, what elicitation is, is basically you're trying to get at some privileged information because a lot of times this is the privilege information that keeps us from getting the best deals, the best sales deals, and the best negotiations. So what you want to do is find out this information and you don't want to ask a direct question because when you ask direct questions you have a tendency to put the person you're talking to

on guard and what you want to do is put them at ease and then create an environment where they're psychologically predisposed to tell you sensitive information and the elicitation is so powerful that the people who are giving you that sensitive information don't realize that they're releasing privileged information. That's really helpful. So I guess to even make it stick more and help us understand it more, can you talk to us about the traditional approaches when it comes to determining if people are lying and why it's better to get the truth before the lies? The more traditional method is to ask them direct questions

and then you challenge them and then you go out and you seek additional information. All the time that you ask these questions, the fences go up and when their defenses go up, they're going to ask themselves, why does this person want the information, how are they going to use it against me, and why in fact are they targeting me for this information?

So they're going to be on guard, and they're going to guard everything they say in order to not reveal information that you may be seeking, or they think you may be seeking. So that's the more traditional approach with elicitation is that it's non-confrontational. Typically, don't ask any questions and the people who you are talking to will like you and they will ask you and invite you back to talk to them again. And can you help us understand like how effectiveness is like what kind of information would people give out using elicitation and and give us some examples because I know you teach a class and you know you have

your students go to the mall and people are giving out their pin numbers and crazy things using this technique. So help us understand how powerful this really is. It is it's extremely powerful because what we do is when we teach our intelligence officers to go to foreign countries and get information from our enemies and sometimes our friends, what we do is we give them a four hour block of instruction in the morning and then in the afternoon we go out to a mall and then we randomly, the instructors will randomly select or target a person in the mall and assign that student to approach the target and obtain their pin number for their bank accounts for their computers for their anything that they have a pin number on and also social security numbers and other sensitive information, bank account information, how much their debt to income ratio is, mothers made names. And the students can do that typically within three to five minutes of meeting a stranger.

And I'll give you a good example. At Western Illinois University where I teach law enforcement, I had a class and I was explaining illicitation to one of the classes and I explained how I got a social security number from one of our intelligence officers who was in training and I was able to use these illicitation techniques to get his social security number and he didn't realize he'd gave it up. The students were a little skeptical so they they asked me to, in fact, five students had back-to-back classes with me. So they asked me to demonstrate the elicitation techniques in the next class. And I said, okay, and I said, you pick the target, and they picked a student. And within five or ten ten minutes I was able to get the students social security number. And after he gave a social security number out, the student started

laughing and he looks around and he said, what's so funny? He says, you just gave up your social security number. And he kind of chuckled and said, yeah, I guess I did give out my social security number. I didn't even realize I did it. So what elicitation techniques do, it kind of gives you access to more sensitive information. And you can also find out what people truly think about a topic or a feeling they may have. And one of the techniques you can use is something called a third-party perspective.

And that is, that founds on the premise that humans have a natural tendency to talk about other people rather than themselves. So if you framed something in a third person, they tend to look into their themselves for the answer. And if you ask somebody a direct question, they tend to look to social norms. For example, if one of the female students wanted to know if her boyfriend was predisposed to cheat on her, and he asked her, of course she asked him a direct question, would you cheat on me?

And of course he reaches out to social norms and says, of course I wouldn't cheat on you. And that's he reaches out to social norms and says, of course I wouldn't cheat on you. And that's kind of natural because you's not gonna say, well, I would cheat on you. I'm pretty supposed to cheat. So what she did in turn was, she said, all my friend Mary Beth had a boyfriend

and he was caught cheating. What do you think of that? And she's looking for the answer wall. That's wrong. You should never cheat on your significant other. And unfortunately she didn't get that answer. She got some answers like, well, if she wasn't paying attention to him, she wasn't giving him the right attention,

then he has a right to cheat on her. So that gave her a little insight into what he really felt about cheating, by asking that third party perspective question. Let's talk about what makes this automatic behavior work so well. Like what is the scientific and biological explanation of all of this? Why does this elicitation process work? Well, humans have some psychological predispositions and all we're doing is tapping into those

psychological predispositions. One of one of the strongest psychological predispositions people have is the need to correct to others. So if you hear something that said that's wrong, people have a tendency to correct that statement and then add a little bit to the statement. There's just this overwhelming need that people want to be right. And when somebody else is wrong and you're right, now that puts you above them.

And so you feel a little superiority to the person who's making that mistake. But what people don't realize is that in the process of correcting a false statement, people are releasing a lot of information that probably they shouldn't. Yeah, 100%. So you talk about an analogy in your book about an automobile tracking device. And essentially, you compare a dissertation in terms of this analogy with an automobile tracking device. I feel like it will really help stick in people's minds if you give that analogy, if you could share it. Yeah, what what happens with these new devices? I in fact, I have one from my insurance company and they say that, you know, I'll get a little discount and then you

take this thing into your car and it will track everything that you do, the braking, the turning, the acceleration, when you stop, how fast you're going, how slow you're going, and it'll track just about everything you can do in that car. But what happens is I'm not even aware that it's there. I was aware of the first couple days and then I forgot about it. But all the while that tracking device is collecting information from me without me being aware that it's collecting information. So, elicitation is the same way. What you're doing is you're collecting information and the person that you're collecting it from doesn't realize that you're monitoring the information and getting it from them without their knowledge. I think that's super helpful. Let's give some historical perspective on this Dr. Jack and feel free to loosen up and really get into this conversation because I know that you

bring so much to the table. you've got so much knowledge. You literally are one of the most widely recognized FBI agents out there, and this is your expertise. So I'm really excited for this conversation. Let's get some history. Can you share a bit about, I'm gonna butcher this name, Hans Joachim Shariff, and he was a pioneer in this elicitation style strategy.

And he had this really cool approach called Change of Scene. Can you talk to us about this great story? Yeah, Shariff is, he was a German interrogator during World War II, and he used a different approach. In fact, he's like the grandfather of the elicitation model. What he did, instead of using the tactics like the Gestapo did with torture and stress positions, all he did was he took the airmen and he would walk outside the camp. In other words, he would change the venue so they're

no longer in a prisoner situation. They're more like on a stroll with him outside the camp. And what he did was, he just started a general conversation with them, got them feeling very comfortable, and then he would start using these elicitation techniques. And what he's doing is he's taking advantage of human predisposition. Because when we stroll number one, we're predisposed to talk to people. Because anytime we usually stroll with somebody or take a walk with somebody, we're always in conversation.

So we're predisposed to talk when we're in conversation with somebody and we're strolling with them. And the other thing is, if they're outside that prisoner environment, then they become more relaxed. Yeah, that's super interesting. So basically what you're talking about is like getting people into the right environment and the right mindset.

So what are the key things that we have to do to make sure that people are comfortable to start talking to us and telling the truth? Like, what are some of the foundational things that we need to do? There's basically three, what I refer to as friend signals. And when you approach somebody, they will typically eyebrow flash you as they approach you. And as you approach the other person, they will typically eyebrow flash.

You will typically reciprocate the eyebrow flash. And all that eyebrow flash means it's a quick 164thxty-fourth of a second, and it's just a quick up and down movement with the eyebrows. And all that does is tell the other person that I'm not a threat. And you almost do this subconsciously, because people don't realize it until I bring the eyebrow flash to their attention. They realize that they eyebrow flash hundreds of times a day when they approach people and they can recognize that when people approach them now With the with the knowledge of the eyebrow flash they'll recognize and see the eyebrow flash and what typically happens is when you're walking down the hallway

in the Morning and you first see somebody you what you typically do is say, hello, how you're doing. And when you see that person the second time, you don't have to say anything, but what you typically do is eyebrow flash one another, or you stick out your chin and do a chin job. And that's just another signal that says, I'm a friend. The other one is the head until when you approach somebody, you want to tilt your head, because when you tilt your head, what you approach somebody you want to tilt your head because when you tilt your head what you do is you expose your carotid artery and That is one of the most vulnerable parts of your body and what you're letting that person know is I trust you And I'm exposing my carotid if anybody has any dogs

And you go when dog owners go home typically what their dogs will do is sit there and tilt their head and Why they're tilting their head is there letting the owner know that the dog is not a threat. And a lot of times what they do is football around their back, expose their stomach, which is another friend signal that says, I'm exposing the most vulnerable part of my body. The last thing is a smile. Because when we smile, we release endorphins. And if we smile at somebody, it's very difficult for them not to smile back.

So they get a shot of endorphin and makes them feel good about themselves and then that kind of taps into the golden rule of friendship was or which is if you want to get people to like you you make them feel good about themselves. So if you are approaching somebody and you want to So if you are approaching somebody and you want to use elicitation techniques, you've got to make sure these three friend signals are visible. You'll let the other person know that you're not a threat. And if you guys want more information on that, my first episode was called First Impressions.

And me and Jack talked extensively about how to get people to like you through things like friend signals, through things like the golden rule of friendship and empathetic statements. So if you guys are interested in that, check out episode number one, and we also covered it in episode number 64 pretty recently. So if you guys want to refresh our on how

to get people to like you, which is part of a listation, check those episodes out. I'm going to quickly just reset the room. You guys are listening to a live episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. I'm your host, Talata. I'm joined on the panel with Dr. Jack Schaefer. He is an XFBI agent.

He is also the author of a recent book called Truth Detector and the Light Switch, which is my all-time favorite book. I'm really excited for him to be on this panel today. I also have my friends, some of them podcasters, some of them clubhouseters, some of them clubhouse influencers, Caroline, Melissa, Paulina, and Molly, who may be asking questions in the future. Okay, so keeping on the topic of environment and getting people to like you, I know that rapport is extremely important when it comes to elicitation and getting in

the right mindset of using these elicitation techniques with your quote unquote target. So what is rapport exactly? How do you define rapport? Report is just developing a positive connection between two people. And it's very easy to develop using a few techniques. One of the techniques is finding common ground with somebody. Common ground is probably one of the quickest ways to establish rapport. And there's three ways to get common ground. The first way is something that we share together.

If I'm from Chicago and you're from Chicago, we have instant common ground because we share something in the present. There's something called temple common ground. You may be from New York and I may be from Chicago, but in the past, I visited New York several times. So over time, then, we have shared experiences. And the last one is vicarious, which means you live through somebody else.

I've never been to New York. I live in Chicago. You live in New York, but I know my daughter lives in New York. So through my daughter, I can get common ground with that person. Got it. So it's really important to get people to feel good about themselves, right? Yeah, that's in rapport is one way to make them feel good about themselves. Because if you're with somebody and you feel good, or if you're with somebody, you make them feel good about themselves, they're gonna wanna come back and see you again.

In fact, they may even think of excuse to come back and see you just so they can have that same good feeling again. Awesome. Okay, so let's move on to some tactics and tools, so to speak, in our toolbox, when it comes to elicitation. We've been doing a lot of like foundation. What does it mean? What's

the environment that we need to have people be in or the mindset that people need to be in and what we need to do to get people to like us, which is all important to kind of start the conversation. But when we're actually in the conversation with us, what are some of the things that we can do and with some of the tactics that you suggest we do to have an effective elicitation? Well, the first thing you want to do is you want to start with a general topic and talk about something benign for a minute or two

and then you want to insert an elicitation tool and then you want to talk about something benign again because most people remember the first thing they said heard or did and they remember the last thing they said heard or did the things in the middle have a tendency to be forgotten. So if you put the elicitation technique in what we call that elicitation sandwich then it will be less recognized. So the first thing you need to do is have that elicitation sandwich. Awesome. So let's maybe do a quick fire type of a thing where I can trigger something and you can help explain what it is.

So let's talk about the presumptive statement. Maybe you can give us a real example of how to use the presumptive statement. And maybe you can give us a real example of how to use the presumptive statement, because from my understanding, this is really important when it comes to an elicitation, is to use these presumptive statements. So can you explain what that is? And then maybe give us a real example of a student or yourself when you've used a presumptive statement to elicit the truth from someone. Yeah, what a presumptive statement does, it founds on the need to correct.

So what I'm going to do to set up an elicitation technique using the presumptive, I'm just going to make a statement that statement can be either true or it can be false. If the statement's false, people have a strong need to correct you and then we'll add a little information. If it is correct, people will affirm that the information is correct. people have a strong need to correct you and then we'll add a little information

if it is correct people will affirm that the information is correct. I use this a lot when I go into jewelry stores and I want to buy a piece of jewelry for my wife and I want to make sure I get the best deal I can on that jewelry. So what I will do is say to the clerk, gee, you must get like 5% or 10% commission on that. And the clerk will say, well, no, I don't get 5% or 10%, I get like 3% or 4%. And then I'll say, oh, so you must have an automatic discount then you have some flexibility here.

No, I don't have any flexibility. My boss is the one. And he generally won't give this more than 20%. So what's he doing? I'm making a statement and he's correcting me and then giving me that sensitive information. So what I did in the case of buying my wife that ring, I went to the boss and I said, tell you what. And then I calculated 20% reduction. I said, tell you what, and then I calculated a 20% reduction. I said, if you can give me that ring at this particular price, I'll buy it right now.

And he said, okay, you can have it. Because I knew that I had an advantage how much the commission was and I knew how much the the discount the boss was willing to give. Yeah, that's really helpful. And then can you help us understand why negative presumptive questions helps bring out the truth more than asking

a positive presumptive question? Okay, the negative, we already talked about the positive and that is saying there's no problem here, right? And the person is likely to say, no problems at all. A negative presumptive is, so you're having problems with the noise at McDonald's.

And that's why these people are moving out because of the noise at McDonald's. So you're asking a very negative question. What people have a tendency to do then is to try to correct that. And they think, because of the way you ask the question, that you already know that there's a problem. When, in fact, you don't know if there's a problem or not,

but the person you're asking assumes the problem. Gotcha, so that's why negative is better than positive. Okay, so let's talk about a couple of their tactics to use during an elicitation. Can you explain what bracketing is and how we can use it and maybe an example? Yeah, bracken is when you want to get information that contains numbers, typically.

And if you want to know a price range, you could say, so your commission or the markup on this jewelry is what 50 to 60%. So what you want to do is make one bracket high and the other one low and then people will have a tendency to correct you and give you the correct number. If you want to know somebody's age, I can say, oh, you look like you're maybe 35, 40. And if they're not 35 to 40 years old, they're going to correct you and give you the right age. And if they are, then they will typically give you the exact age that they are. I think that's super, super powerful to know. So basically throwing out a range will make

somebody want to correct you again and give you the correct closer number. Okay, so we just talked about bracketing, which is really interesting. It's basically involving numbers or dates in order to give a range and hope that somebody will correct you to give you a more accurate version of that range. All right, so let's talk about status manipulation. Jack, if you want to help explain to us what status manipulation is, I think it's an excellent way to get people talking and get their true intentions.

Yeah, what how I came across this technique is my son and I were at the bookstore and we saw an author over there and she was selling a book. There was nobody at the table. So we just walk over there and talk to her a book. There was nobody at the table, so we just walked over there and talked to her. And I thumbed through the book and I said, your writing style is Jane Austen-esque-like. And what I did was I elevated her status to the status of Jane Austen.

And what she did was, she knew she wasn't at that status. So what she did was, she had to explain why she wasn't Jane Austen in doing so. She gave us a lot of information about her home life and her husband and the fact that she had three kids and started telling me all this information about her personal life, that she probably wouldn't have given me if I asked her a direct question. That's awesome. I do want to allow an audience member who came up here who has an amazing question ask that to Jack. Kizzy, you're here on stage. You've got a great question. I'd love for you to ask Jack your question. Well thank you for this conversation. I'm thoroughly enjoying it and I don't want any

professionals to get mad at me because I work in the profession as well. But for Dr. Jack, how do you elicit the truth at a person's or professionals when they work in industries where it's lying is acceptable, I.e. psychiatry, lawyers, politicians, because we're kind of trained already to look at body language, to X and direct questions, to ask non-leaning questions, and they already have heart and belief systems. We're trained to look at cynicism. And so they're going to always give you the p.r. answer even when you know it's not the truth. So how do we like go even further and get that information out of the person? Well, what you can do in that situation, and I recently ran into this situation where

an employer wanted me to question a possible employee to find out if they were loyal and trustworthy. So instead of asking them, are you loyal and trustworthy? Of course, they're going to say yes. So what I did was I said, okay, what if one of your colleagues you overheard them releasing proprietary or confidential information to their friends, what would you do in that situation? So what you did, you set up that third party perspective, ask them about the friend situation and not themselves. So what happens is they will come and talk about their real, they talk about a third party. That's the same thing you can do with politicians.

You can ask them about a situation, and they're more likely to give you a more straightforward answer, but sometimes politicians are extremely well trained, and they stick to points, and they won't drift from those talking points. So if you run up against somebody that is extremely polished and well practiced, it may be more difficult. I think that's brilliant. So using that third party perspective tool on somebody who's really trained to lie and comfortable with lying, to try to get the real truth out of them. I love that. So Molly, I know you have sort of a similar question in terms of clubhouse and how you can detect a lie. Do you want to ask your question?

Absolutely. Thank you so much. With an audio app like clubhouse, what are some verbal cues or clues we can look forward to detect if someone is lying or not being forthcoming when they are speaking? Well, the first thing you look for is simple declarative sentences because when people give you anything but a simple declarative sentence, it tends to signal that they may be hiding something. So if you want to appear truthful on any kind of social platform, what you want to do is use simple declarative sentences. The second thing, audio, what you want to look for is latency. You can ask a question and if there's a big, that pause gives that person time to think of the answer they want to give you.

And most of the time, truth people don't have to pause to give you an answer. And I'm going to share with you one technique that is extremely detecting deception in the verbal realm. And that is the well technique. If you ask somebody a direct yes or no question and they respond with the word well, it means they are about to give you an answer. You know they're not that you're not expecting. So we'll give you an example. If I send my kid off to the bedroom to do his homework, and I hear nothing but shenanigans going on

and there are no homework. He exits his room and I ask him, did you do your homework? He says, well, I've stopped on there and send him back into his bedroom to do his homework, and he's left wondering, how did Dad know I didn't? So let's examine that a bit closer. I ask him a

yes or no question about his homework. He thinks I'm expecting the answer yes. When he says, well, it means anything but yes, which is no. So if you ask your boss, am I getting a raise? And he goes, well, that means you're not getting a raise boss. Can I get the day off that I asked for? Well, that means you're not getting a race. Boss, can I get the day off that I asked for? Well, that means you're not getting the day off because he thinks you're expecting the answer yes and both occasions when in fact, you're not getting it. So he answers with the word well first. And that's kind of a tip off. I love that. That's so good. That's such a great way to know like what is coming

next. I think that's great. So I think for me, I don't know why this third party perspective rule that we've been talking about is so powerful to me because I feel like it's so obvious, but it's something that I never kind of put two and two together. And I know that there's even more advanced techniques, like storytelling, using the third party perspective. Can you tell us about storytelling using the third party perspective. Can you tell us about storytelling using the third party perspective? Why that's so powerful, how we can use it?

I like storytelling because humans like stories. And the story has to have a moral and a course of action. What I typically did, if I'm interviewing a teller who happened to embezzle money, I would say, let me tell you a story about my sister and I would parallel that she was a teller who happened to embezzle money, I would say, let me tell you a story about my sister and I would parallel that she was a teller and she took some money expecting you know on Friday to pay some bills and she expected a return, a check that was going to come on Saturday, it didn't come. And then on Monday she couldn't of course replace the money because the check didn't come.

So what I tell her is my sister lied to the her boss, to the bank examiner, and then when the FBI agent came in to talk about it because there's a federal offense that it was too late. She called me and says, can you help me? I said, no, I can't help you. It's too late once it gets to the FBI. There's nothing I can do to intercede at this point. So I would break in the eye and say, don't be like my sister.

So I told that story. The moral is it's better to tell the truth up front. The course of action, tell the truth immediately before you get too deep into it. That's super interesting. So we talked a lot about the different tools in our toolbox when it comes to elicitation and some of the tactics that we can use. Let's talk about the ways that this can backfire on us. And I think for me, as I was reading your book, I think the number one way is not being able to pay attention and actually listen to what people are saying. So if you use all these tactics

and you aren't able to actually pay attention and actively listen to people, you're gonna miss the truth because you're not paying attention. So talk to us about the importance of active listening and how we can become better active listeners so that when we do employ some of these strategies, we actually gain something out of it.

That's interesting. I sent two students into a store and asked the one student to get the date of birth from the clerk. And the person happened to be an extrovert. Extroverts like to talk a lot and they don't give people a chance to talk. And then when people do talk, extroverts have a tendency not to listen to what they're saying because they're too interested in what they're about to say. So as it turned out, the clerk did give up their data birth

and the person that went in with that extrovert left the store and the extrovert came out and told me, says, wow, I tried everything I could, but I didn't get the information. And the other person with him said, yeah, you did. You got the date of birth and here's the date of birth. And he says, why didn't even know that? I said, that's because you're too busy talking and you're not listening. So a good way to listen is to formulate an empathic statement.

You find out what that person said and you want to mirror back to them and using parallel language, what they said. And that lets that person know that you want to mirror back to them using parallel language what they said and that lets that person know that you're in fact listening to them and that builds rapport. Can you give us an example of an empathic statement and how we can structure one? I always like to say if you're going to use beginning statement, classic examples, I'm an elevator at school and one of the students on the elevator was really smiling and she was very happy. And I said, so things must be going your way today. And what that is take, I'm taking her physical status and her emotional, the emotions that she's showing. And I'm just mirroring it back to her. So you must have had a good day because people who smile and look happy

usually have good days. And she said, yeah, I just passed a very difficult test. And I said, oh, so your hard work and study paid off. And so what I did was I just mirrored back to her what she was thinking. In addition to that, I allowed her to flatter herself. I didn't give her a direct compliment, but, I allowed her to flatter herself. I didn't give her a direct compliment, but I did allow her to flatter herself because she was thinking to herself, yes,

that hard work did pay off, and I got a good grade on that test. And what happens is we have a tendency to flatter ourselves, and it makes us feel good about ourselves, and if we feel good about ourselves, we're going to like the person who makes us feel good about ourselves. And if we feel good about ourselves, we're going to like the person who allowed us to do that. This is actually really, really important for everybody to understand. So what he's saying is that he used an empathic statement, which demonstrated that he was listening to the person

because he's basically repeating what that person is saying. He's not saying exactly what that person is saying back because that seems deceptive. He's saying something very similar to what that person said to demonstrate that he's listening. So that makes the person feel good about themselves because people want to be the center of attention. People want the conversation to be focused on themselves. So when you're trying to get the truth out of someone, when you're trying to get somebody

to like you, you don't want to make it about you. You want to make it about them. So that's what an empathetic statement does. It basically gets people to say what they're feeling and they're true feelings without you. How do I say this? It's basically you're getting them to say it by not saying much, just kind of rephrasing what they already said to keep going with the information, right? So you don't wanna give an opinion either way or insert yourself in it. You wanna just, so if somebody's saying,

you know, if somebody looks sad, you say, so you're having a bad day, and then they could just be like, well, you know, yeah, I had XYZ happen and this happened. And you don't say like, yeah, go ahead, Jack. I know how you feel. I know how you don't want to say I know how you feel because they know you don't know how they feel

because only they know how they feel. And what you want to do is you make an empathic statement. And then they'll say, yes, I am having a bad day and they'll usually give you a reason. So what you want to do is change, ease into another empathic statement and then they'll give you more information. And I'll give you a good example of how it works when I was younger. I wanted to practice this technique and I was on an airplane and I was sitting next to

this woman and I said, you know, I was sitting next to this woman and I said, you know, I'm not going to use any questions. I'm just going to use empathic statements. And we talked for like an hour and I found out a lot of things about her and all I did was repeat back to me what she said. She added something to it and the part that she added, I used turn path statement and she added more. And in the end, it was kind of funny. She says, I said, wow, you're certainly a very interesting person. I'm glad I met you and I called her her name. And she turned to me and she said, well, you tell me I'm glad to meet. She's,

you know, I don't know anything about you. And the reason she did is because I allowed her to talk about herself. And the key to all this, the golden rule of friendship is to make people feel good about themselves. People will be your friend, and we'll tell you things when you make them feel good about themselves. The other key to the empathic statement is to your point, Jack,

you were talking about compliments. So tell us a bit more about compliments. What's the right way and wrong way to give a compliment? Most of the time when we give compliments, they're very direct compliments. I like this about you. I like that about you. And typically, people get a little leery about that, especially if they're not really good friends. A good example of that is when

students come into my office and they say, oh, Dr. Schaefer, you're the best professor. I've ever had in my college career. And I just asked them, what do you want? Because I know they're trying to flatter me to get me to do something for them, a favor. So that puts my stuff up. So what you want to do instead is to allow that person to flatter themselves. And like I did with that girl in the elevator, I said,

hey, that hard work really paid off. And she said, yes, it did. And she gave herself a little pat on the back. So that's what we want to do. The correct way is allow people to feel good about themselves. Young and profitors, do you have a brilliant business idea but you don't know how to move forward with it? Going into debt for a four-year degree isn't the only path to success.

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drop Mondays and Thursdays. Find the Millionaire University podcast on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. So if you walk away with anything from this conversation, when you're talking to someone, trying to be friends with somebody or get information from someone, you want to make them feel good about themselves. You do that by demonstrating that you're talking to someone, trying to be friends with somebody or get information from someone, you want to make them feel good about themselves. You do that by demonstrating that you're listening to them with empathic statements. And another way that you do that is by not interrupting and by talking less.

So Jack, tell us the importance about not interrupting and being okay with silence. A lot of times silence is good because what happens is, especially if you're talking with an extrovert, extroverts have a tendency to fill silence, and we're in a turn taking society, and we give each other signals

that it's still your turn to talk. So during an elicitation, you wanna nod your head up and down, that's a non-verbal signal that says, keep talking, it's your turn, and you wanna maybe add a verbal nbal signal that says, keep talking. It's your turn. And you want to maybe add a verbal nudge like, go ahead, uh-huh, go on. And they found out through studies that these nonverbal nudges and verbal nudges increase people's speech production by four to five times. Because you're giving them that signal, it's still your turn to talk.

Because in normal conversation, we look at these non-verbals and we tell each other, no, it's my turn to talk. And then you give the signal, it's your turn to talk now. Yeah, I think this is super, super interesting stuff. So sticking on like red flags and things that we should stay away from when it comes to elicitation. Can you talk to us about why questions are like the worst thing that we can do? Like asking a direct question is the last thing you should do when you're actually trying to get information?

It sounds so counterintuitive, but why shouldn't you actually ask questions? Because what questions do is they set up defense mechanisms because if somebody asks me a question, I'm going to say, why are they asking me the question? What do they want to know? How are they going to use that information against me? Should I reveal the information? And what should I say instead of answering the question, what should I say that makes it look like it's the truth when

in fact it's not the truth? So direct questions cause people to go on their defenses and their shields go up. So what you want to do with elicitation is you want to keep questioning to a minimum and you just want to make them psychologically predisposed to want to tell you the information. And the other thing that we have to remember with these elicitation techniques is it works both ways. If you learn how con men get information from people, and they use the same techniques,

these elicitation techniques. So what you want to do is use it as a defense mechanism. So what you want to do is recognize these techniques. So when somebody does come up to you, a stranger, and starts talking with you, you want to be able to recognize that they're using elicitation techniques. And then once you can name it, then you can claim it, and you can stop them from getting the information that they want to take advantage of you. I love that. That's super helpful. I'm just going to quickly reset the room

here. You guys are listening to a live episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. On stage with me, I have Dr. Jack Schaefer. Dr. Jack Schaefer has been on Young and Profiting Podcast. Now, three times, he is my all-time favorite author. He's the author of the Like Switch, and also the Truth Detector. I must have listened to the Like Switch 10 times. The Truth Detector just came out. You guys definitely have to go grab that book if you're enjoying this conversation.

His books are honestly jam-packed with so much information. I feel like one of the reasons why I'm successful is because of Dr. Jack Schaefer and the things that I've learned and how it's helped me network and really build solid relationships knowing these different tactics and using these tactics that he used as an FBI agent for good, not for bad, you know, that I think there's definitely, and we can get into this, if anybody's interested, but there's definitely some ways that people can manipulate people using this stuff. But there's also a lot of good that you can do.

So speaking to that, Jack, what are the ways that people can use these tactics for good? And not just only to get information, but also to improve relationships. Like, how does elicitation actually improve our relationships? What it does is it makes people feel

number feel comfortable and the more information you share with somebody, especially more secretive information that you don't share with everybody. The more likely and intense that relationship is going to develop because relationships are based on trust and if you can build that trust, then you will develop a better

relationship that makes that other person comfortable opening up to you. are based on trust. And if you can build that trust, then you will develop a better relationship that makes that other person comfortable opening up to you. This episode of YAP is sponsored by Fiverr Business. Did you know at YAP Media I'm leading a team of over 45 contracted freelancers from all over the world? When you're managing a team, it can be super hard to get everyone on the same page, especially if your freelancers decide to go rogue. I just found out about Fiverr Business and I can't believe I never knew this existed. With Fiverr Business, you get access to an all-star team, a vetted, super-free Lancers. And you not only get the talent, you also get the tools.

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They completely changed how I thought about my body care routine and my shower. You can find Ole body care products in the store or online. Ole body, fearless in my skin. So we've got some folks on stage. We have Cat, Chris and Ahmed. We are going to open it up for Q&A in just a bit. So Cat, Chris, you guys can DM Caroline your question. You guys can put your question in your bio,

but I got to know your question before I throw it to you guys. So make sure you are sending us your questions. I'm also going to bring up Christopher now. Before we get into that, let's talk about why elicitation works a little bit more. We touched on it a bit, but I'd love to dive a little deeper into it because it's so interesting to me. So some of the reasons why this stuff works is because people

have a need to, they like to talk about other people, they like to gossip. So Jack, why psychologically do we love to gossip? And how can we play on that trait to get the truth out of people? I think people like to gossip because number one, they're not in the spotlight. Number two, it's a third person. And number three, typically when we gossip, it's not about good things, it's about bad things. So we elevate ourselves above the person we're about. And that tends to make us feel better about ourselves is when we could say, well,

you hear about that person unbelievable what they did. And it makes you look good and makes them look bad. So I think that's why we like the gossip, it elevates us over the person that we're gossiping about. And all you have to do is say, did you know, and then you add the person's name, and then you could say anything about that person. And if the person something about them, then they will certainly chime in and contribute to the gossip. When in fact, you may not have known that information. So you're again using a productive with gossip. Yeah. And I think it's also because people like to feel like they're in the know and it's kind of like almost like a power thing gossiping about other people because it means that they

know more information and people like to seem like they're really in the know. In fact, what that does it plays into that knowledge is power and if I know something you don't, I'm more powerful than you are. And it makes me feel good about myself because I am in a position that no more about you, more than you do. Something else that I want to, we touched on it again, but I definitely want to drill it home,

especially because we are having so many technical difficulties, so I want to make sure everybody knows about this. Oh, this is what I wanted to talk about. People wanting to correct, having the need to correct others, because I think this is what I wanted to talk about. People wanting to correct having the need to correct others. Because I think this is one of the most

foundational pieces of all of this is understanding that people love to correct other people. And when you know that people just have to correct other people and it is such like an innate thing that's like hardwired into our brains that when we hear something wrong, we wanna correct people. So first of all, you know,

making sure you don't have an ego. So if you are trying to get something truthful out of someone that you're okay to actually say something that you know might be wrong because you actually want the person to correct you with the right answer. So I'd love for you to really, really drive this home, Jack, in terms of why people loved

correct other people, maybe some examples of people correcting other people, and how we can use these tactics and elicitation to get the truth out of people. Yeah, the power to correct is extremely powerful, because in class, I talked to a student, and I remember this one particular occasion, she was a senior and she said something and I said well that's pretty intuitive for a sophomore and I had just gotten done talking about the power to correct and she just grand and bitter lip and She says I know what you're up to and I said okay, and then I started to move on and she says I'm a senior and I said Why did you tell me that?

She said, I just had to correct you. I couldn't let that go. So that's how part, even when you know that the technique is being used against you, it's very difficult to resist that need to correct. And that's what makes it so powerful. It is one way that we can get people predisposed to talk. And the thing that hurts people that elicit is,

like you say, their ego then is diminished. If they have to say something that's wrong intentionally and then they have to be corrected, which is a counterintuitive to what they know they should be doing. I think that's super helpful and super powerful. And I think a lot of people are enjoying this conversation. We have over 240 people in this room, guys.

So another reason why this works is people have a need for recognition. So in addition to people loving to talk about other people, loving to gossip, also loving to correct other people, the reason why elicitation works is because people also have a need for recognition. So Dr. Jack Schaefer, why don't you talk to us about why recognition is so important in all of this to understand? Because most of us have our identities and males

in particular have their identities wrapped up in their profession or what they do. And females, more so are getting that way, but typically their tendency is to be wrapped up in family issues. So what we want to do is recognize what people do. And I remember one case I had where there was a high school and I wanted to get somebody on the inside that could help me get information about some students. And I chose the janitor because he walks around school and he talks a lot of people.

And what I did with him is I talked to him and I said, so what do you do? He says, well, let me tell you what I do is I clean the building and do this. And I said, take you a long time to do that because there's a lot of stuff here and you get it done in eight hours. I invented this new technique.

I just pathway through school, make it very efficient and the steps and I wow, that takes a lot of ingenuity to be able to come up with a strategy to efficiently clean the building. So, and I said, once he, I recognized that what he was doing was very good, which in fact it was very good, that he liked me and I gave him my card and I said, if you ever see anything, you let me know. And so he gave me information about what's going on

at the school and all I did was allow him to get some recognition for a job well done. And I don't think that many people would give them the opportunity to be recognized. I love that. Okay, so we're gonna open it up to Q&A and just a bit. Before we do that, Jack, I would love for you to give us a great example of using some

of the elicitation techniques that we talked about today. I know you have a great story about one of your students who actually convinced somebody to give them information that would allow him to rob a jewelry store. I thought this was such a great story, so and I think it's a great example. So can you give us some detail in terms of this story and really drill home in terms of the different techniques that he used, you know, to get this information so that we can tie everything all together. It was kind of amazing because I, I told one of my students to walk into a jewelry store

and get all the information that would be required as if he were casing the joint to rob it. So the student, I walked in with him and I was listening to how his elicitation techniques went and I was kind of amazed myself because he walks in. He notices that there's cameras all around the store. So he opens up. He wants to buy a trinket for his girlfriend.

And he's looking at the trinket. And he says, wow, be pretty tough to steal anything in this store with all the cameras here. That's a presumptive statement. And the guy goes, nah, those cameras are just for show don't worry about them You know they don't even work. It's just something to scare people away and he goes well at least you have the the mall Police to come security that comes by and checks on you and he says that's another presumptive and he says No, those people don't come by at all because because they're too busy, you know, doing other stuff,

so they don't come by. And I said, I was still listening, and I'm starting to get amazed, and he goes like, and besides what we do is we have a policy that we don't even report, shop, or certain amount of dollars in merch. So I think it was around $1,200. And the kid goes $1,200.

And that's, he was just feigning amazement. And he's going like, holy smokes. You mean, I can walk out of here with this ring and you wouldn't even report me to the police. He goes, yeah, it's a store policy. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I can't believe it. He says, well, at least you won't get robbed because all your money is going to be in a safe, and you probably drop it every hour to make sure that there's no money

at hand to be robbed. And he goes, yeah, that would be, that's what we typically do, but right now, the safe's broken. And it's sitting over there across the room and there's $2,200 in their cash and the safe broken, it won't even lock. So the guy goes, you mean I can walk over there right now and take that money and the guy goes, well yeah, if you just open it up, I'm not, you know, just walk out with it. I was like, I was amazed that the guy just revealed all this really sensitive information. We left the store and we're still shaking our heads. And I thought about going back and telling them, Hey, you better stop giving out all that information because we were under, we were under you doing an exercise in the intelligence, you know,

realm and we decided just to let it go. People will just give you tons and tons of information. If you give them the opportunity and predispose them to want to tell you the truth because they like you. Yeah, and I think part of it is also because he felt very disconnected from the repercussions, right? I think it goes with that recognition piece

because he was like low on the totem pole. He felt like, well, it doesn't really impact me and I want to seem important and in the know. So I'm going to tell these strangers this really sensitive information because in the moment, I want to seem powerful and like, I know things. Yeah. Knowledge is power and what all we're doing is allowing people to express themselves under conditions that we set up. Yes, and then again, giving that presumptive information, I think that's the other key there, is that they were saying things like, what was that security comment, like basically saying, well, you guys have security cameras, right? And then he's saying, well, no, we don't,

actually, they're broken. You must be protecting your cash. Well, no, have security cameras, right? And then he's saying, well, no, we don't. Actually, they're broken. You must be protecting your cash. Well, no, we're not. So he wants to correct you, right? So it's so interesting. Yeah, you can do a lot of things with this. And you know what's nice about elicitation is, if you do it properly, people won't know

that you're using these techniques on them. So what you can do is practice and if it doesn't work, it doesn't over time. You can practice a few of these techniques just to see if it works and you'll find out that it does. I used to practice initially in the grocery store and there was people in front of me and typically I would select the person right in front of me and I would try to list it there data birth before we got to the cash here and I was able to do that quite effectively and

get people's trees and pin numbers and that kind of thing Yeah, and the best part is because you're not asking direct questions Which is gonna flag people that you're not asking direct questions, which is gonna flag people that you're being strange, right? And that you're trying to get information since. You're just using an empathetic statements, you're kind of mirroring what they're saying, since you're kind of playing dumb, where you say things that aren't necessarily true

to try to get the right information, you're not triggering anything that will cause alarm, and so nobody will ever know that you're practicing, right, Jack? So can you give us some more advice in terms of how to practice, and then we're going to open it up to Q&A? Yeah, I'll give you a real good story. I was quite impressed with student walk into a telephone store and wanted to buy, you know, I told her,

I want to get that clerk's date of birth. No, get her pin number. I actually, I want to get her pin number. So she walked up to the clerk. She developed a little report in the beginning. And then she said she pivoted towards, you know, I'm having difficulty with passwords and this girl, the clerk, and I saw her do this. She goes, I use a four letter word that is close to me, that has meaning for me. And she touched her chest when she said that.

And I saw four letters. And then the student was thinking, I asked her what she was thinking. And she said, the first thing I thought was hard, but that's five letters. And she said, love. I bet it's love. So she said, and this is another reciprocal elicitation technique. She says, I use the word love from my password, and she got a big smile on her face, and she was giddy and going, I use the same one. I can't believe it. I use it for everything. Oh my gosh, we have the same password.

And then they left. And then the other clerk walked over and said, what was that all about? And I'm listening to see if she understood she gave her password away. She's, no, no, we have the same password. Isn't that amazing? What are you doing? What are you doing tonight at the work? And she just didn't realize that she gave away her password. It's so crazy.

People will give away the craziest information and everybody who's tuning in now, be mindful of these tactics so that they're not kind of played on you, right? So we're gonna move along to Q&A. You guys are tuning into a live, young and profiting episode. I'm your host, Halataha. We're here with Dr. Jack Schaefer. He's the author of the Like Switch

and the Truth Detector, which just came out. It's an amazing book. I just read it, I loved it. You guys should go get it. So we're gonna start off with Need He. What is your question for Dr. Jack Schaefer? Thanks, Hala. This is Nidhi speaking Jack.

It's what a great conversation that thus far. You spoke a lot about using empathy and emotional connection as a way to disarm people. And I'm a therapist and I, you know, sometimes I've worked with people that maybe diagnosis sociopathic or psychopathic. They may not respond to empathy, emotions, and connections with others. So I was just curious to hear your thoughts on how you could tell if they're telling the truth and is there a way to perhaps disarm

that population so that you can elicit the truth from them? Well, that's a tough one because they don't have empathy and they don't feel remorse or regret and they only look out for themselves. So the third party perspective may be a way to tap into that empathy. And I typically interview psychopaths and the way to interview them is you kind of back them up into a corner verbally and then give them three options. And all three options are bad, but there's one that's really bad, one that's less bad, and one that is bad.

And all three are acceptable to me as an interviewer. So I would get them to admit to the one that gives them the most advantage. I would think probably they have big eagles too. See, you might want to use some ego enhancing tools to enhance their eagles' flattery. I bet if you allowed them to flatter themselves, they would not be shy about opening up to you,

especially in a third-party situation. Hi, this is Paul. Do you mind if I add something to that, Jack? Yeah, go ahead. I did what you did for many years. I was mind if I add something to that, Jack? Yeah, go ahead. I did what you did for many years. I was a hostage and gochieter international peacekeeper and a detective for many, many years. I totally agree with what you're talking about the psychopath feeding into their egos and just, it's almost like you make yourself look smaller than them. And you just can't believe how they got it over you.

And it's amazing how their minds just shift over because they need that power and they love that power. So that really kind of smooth things out. And I just, I love that technique. I've used it many times on psychopaths and it works beautifully. So thank you for sharing that. Okay. Good. Awesome. Thank you, Paul. And if you have a question, Paul, put it in your bio because I know that you're an expert in this field as well. So I'm sure you have an excellent question. Paulina, I know you have a question for Dr. Jack Shefer. What's your question? Hi. Thank you so much for an amazing conversation. How can these techniques be

used in the business world? Not to manipulate anyone, but maybe to get a better insight when you're negotiating a deal or a gauging a certain situation to see if it's something that's in alignment with you specifically in business. Well, the first thing I would do is develop good rapport with the person I'm negotiating with. And then the second thing I would do,

let's just take an example, you have a large order and you need an on-time delivery. And if you ask the person you're negotiating with, if they have any problems meeting the delivery goals, you know, you could ask them a direct question. Are you going to have problems making delivery with your manufacturing? And they'll say, of course, not, we'll make delivery. So if you want to elicit the information, you could say, I've read that you guys are having some difficulty with your manufacturer, with your new equipment, and you're running a little bit late on your deliveries.

And that's a presumptive using another thing called quoted facts. I read somewhere that you're having problems. So what that person is likely to do is to say, well, no, we're're having problems. So what that person is likely to do is to say, well, no, we're not having problems. Or, well, we're getting over those problems. And we've worked through them because they don't know when you come up with that presumption, they don't know if you really know that there's problems

or not, and if there are problems, they will probably admit to some of the problems. And if there's no problems, you say, where did you read that? Show me where you read that, That's not right. That's wrong. We have no problems. We haven't had problems for years. So using that presumptive, either get an affirmation of that presumptive or they're going to correct it, knowing that you may know something more information than you really do know. Again, going back to people love to correct other people. And so you can get the truth out of other people

by using a presumptive statement that will get people to try to correct you because they love to show that they're smart and that they have the right answer. So super, super interesting stuff. We're going to move it along to Dimple, who has a question for Dr. Jack Sheifer. Thank you, Paula and Jack. This is an amazing room.

I'm enjoying it so much. I'm definitely going to have to get Jack's books. Okay, so my question is, how do you deal with manipulative managers at work and get them to admit to their wrong doings indirectly? And it doesn't, I mean, it can be a manager at work. It can be a coworker, it can be, you know, a law firm, colleague, but just, you know, someone who's in an authority position

over someone else who is manipulative, how do you get them to admit their wrongdoings that they're doing things that are questionable, that are not appropriate? You know, just off the top of my head, what I probably do is set up a third party perspective and I would tell a story and say, you know, I work for this company once and I had a manager and I would parallel the problems you're having with that manager. Maybe they're being manipulative. I'd say, you know, I had a manager in another company I worked for, there was very manipulative and they tried to do this and that and and what you take on all that and manipulative and they try to do this and then and what you're taking on all that and if they agree with all that They're gonna kind of indict themselves because they're thinking to themselves. Wow. I act like they just describe or

They'll have a tendency to correct you and then you realize that maybe they're not aware that they're very manipulative when in fact they are Thank you so much. Thank you guys so much. I'm going to go to my my because she followed the directions and I love her question, my my, what is your question for Dr. Jack Sheifer? Thank you, Halal. My question is about discernment. So what are your thoughts on how to discern

and what do you look out for as far as like discerning whether a person, I mean, I know that ultimately it takes time, but any quick thoughts on a person's behavior and how to discern whether they're authentic or a good person or have genuine intentions. Thank you. I think it takes time. And I think you're right about that. I mean, somebody can fake something for a certain amount of time,

but if you see them in different environments under different stressing conditions, then their true cells will come out. You can use elicitation techniques and find out perhaps what they're really feeling. But I think it takes time to know somebody well enough to know if they're being sincere or not. Thank you so much, Jack.

I think you just reaffirmed my thoughts because either in any aspect of my life, whenever I get in any sort of relationship, whether it's a business relationship, a friendly relationship or a romantic relationship, I always think that it just takes a long time to really get to know the person's intentions and with the real person and you just have to be patient and you have to kind of have, you know, those not really have expectations and just really kind of see day to day and see them in other rounds. And I also think that about like when you go out on dates

with people, you should maybe do things that are experiences rather than like face to face, a kind of coffee interview, because if you do experiences, you kind of get to see how they react in their behaviors toward others. So thank you so much, Jack, I really appreciate you. Yeah, others.

And the other thing you should be careful of in new relationships is we want a data dump everything with the person that we're very interested in. And that newness then leaves the relationship because we know a lot about that person right up front. A better way to do it is to just release information bit by bit over a number of months. And that way it always keeps that relationship new and exciting because, well, I didn't know that about you.

And then you waited another couple weeks and dropped another piece of information by yourself. I didn't know that about you. So that keeps that relationship fresh longer. So that's one way. Be careful not to the data dump on somebody when you first meet them. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mai Mai, that was such an excellent question. Okay, we're going to move along to Christoph, who has an excellent question for Dr. Jack Shefer Christoph.

Can you ask your question? Yes, hi, all. Thank you. Been great subject so far. And my question pertaining to human behaviors, not my domain. My domain is more cybersecurity and illiciting. I'm going to talk about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about.

I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. I've been talking about the issues that I've been talking about. with that and with eliciting information or statements from somebody, what is your estimation of the impact of that? And it could be, I guess, from my understanding a lack of sleep or substance abuse, I mean,

just old age people get dementia, of course, right? And maybe sometimes outright delusions, regardless of age. So what is your experience with that? Well, my experience with a false memory typically comes and it typically happens a bank is being held up and we interview the teller and the teller during a traumatic event, we have a tendency not to process information because we're too worried about being alive and surviving the event. What happens is there's blanks in our memory if we're in automobiles and there's blanks in our memory. If we're in automobiles and there's blanks in our mind. So our body wants to, our brain wants to fill those memories.

So we ask other people about those memories, false memories, because your memory is blank, but you've talked to somebody else, and then what that other person says now becomes your memory, which is a false memory. And that's why it's very critical when we interview, especially witnesses in a traumatic event that we separate all the witnesses so that we don't get any interference from other people's memories. should we just want to know what they remember. So false memories, it can be planted if there's a lack of memory, you can't plant false memories. And the other thing is we have to remember that when we remember something, we're pulling it out of our brain.

And then when we get finished with that thought, we re-remember it. And if we re-remember something that's not true, that now becomes what we consider our true memory which in fact it's not. Awesome guys. Great question, Kristoff and great response Dr. Jack Schaefer. Cool. So we're going to move it along to the next audience member who's on stage and has a question Eli. What is your question for Dr. Jack Schaefer? So my question is how do you deal with a narcissistic partner who always lie or doesn't admit to the around the wings?

Do you have to stay with them? That's a great answer. I'm gonna give you a full of a answer right now. I'm going to give you a full of a dance, all right, now. I'm just saying, if you don't have to stay with the person, then maybe it's best to find somebody you're more compatible with. But if you have to stay with that person, you're going to have a rough go of it if they are narcissistic because their whole world is about them and not you. So you're always going to have a feeling of being left out. Interesting. Interesting. So Dr. Jack's giving you the real cold shoulder

Eli. He's saying leave, leave that person. Don't bother. Don't bother with it. Hopefully that helps answer your question Eli. We're going to move it along to admit who's got a question as well. What is your question for Dr. Jack Shaffer? Hey, Hala and hey Dr. Jack Shaffer. Thanks so much for going a little over time here. I have absolutely loved this listening in. So thanks. My question is about body language and what kind of weight or importance do you assign to it? And it just had me thinking when you were mentioning the story of, you know, the woman who put her hand to her chest said, my password, you know, it's a four letter word. And I had the same reaction.

I was like, wait, no, love. And how she gave away her password. But I was in a training with a former hostage negotiator in London a few years ago. It was one of the coolest things I've ever been able to do for learning about business and that type of thing. And he basically went on to say, like, the long and the short of it was,

he didn't really care much for body language. So I was wondering if that's a shared principle or what. Thank you. No, I think body language is very important because the numbers differ, but it's about 70% of all our communication is nonverbaly. So if we take that nonverbal aspect away from our communications, we're handicapping ourselves.

That's what happens on the internet. We don't have the nonverbels. So then we have a tendency not to be more circumspect on what we're saying. And we have a tendency to say a lot of things that we wouldn't normally say. Because we don't have the verbal signals that say's safe enough to not. So it's very important. And that's why if you have an internet relationship with somebody, it's best that you meet them in person. So you can go back to using your your nonverbal skills. The humans are really good with nonverbal skills. And

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That's trinom.nom.com.shap for 50% off trinom.com.shap. Jack, I have a question because actually I was going to ask you this question and I'm so glad that it brought up body language. What are some like misconceptions about body language and lying? Because the one thing that I always hear is like if somebody like scratches their nose while they're talking, it means like they're saying like a white lie or they're saying a lie. Are there some key ways to tell if somebody's lying through their body language or is that like just hype? Well, unfortunately, there's no one nonverbal cue

that will indicate whether you're lying. In your example, person scratches their nose, it's because their nose is itchy and they scratch it. Doesn't mean they're lying. But what you can do with nonverbels is you can establish a baseline. So what you do is the first 20 minutes of a conversation, typically when we interview

people, we just ask benign questions and the person has no reason to lie. So we will count their eye blink rates, we'll count their head tilts, we'll count, you know, the times they cross their legs or across their arms. And what we do is we get a baseline of that person. And then when you ask a sensitive question and they break the baseline, it means that a question caused anxiety and perhaps that anxiety was caused by lying, not necessarily, but could be caused by lying. And that gives you kind of a little red flag that says, maybe we should get into that topic a little deeper. Interesting, very, very interesting.

Thank you, I met for that amazing question about body language. We didn't get to cover that topic. And usually we talk about that extensively. If you guys loved this conversation with Jack Schaefer, this is my third time having him on Young & Profiting Podcast. He actually came on episode number one.

Dr. Jack was my first guest ever on Young & Profiting Podcast. And my, my, have we grown in three years and so funny to think about when I first interviewed you to where we are now as a podcast, you know, on the cover of Podcast Magazine, January of 2021, 200,000 plus downloads a month, hundreds of thousands of subscribers, and it's all thanks to Dr. Jack Schaefer, giving me a little chance back in the day because you were a bestselling author when I reached out to you and I was a nobody

and you came on my show. So I'll be forever grateful and you know, always have you back on the show. So love speaking with you Jack. And thanks again for all your time. No problem, you put a lot of work into it and that's what causes people to be successful. Thanks Jack. I have worked with my ass off. Cool. Cool.

What technique did I just use? Say that I... Okay, so let me think about this. You use an empathetic statement. Was that an empathetic statement? And I allowed you to. Pat myself on the back. And you said, I worked my butt off. I fell right into your little trap. So, and the reason I did that is because I just wanted to demonstrate that this is what we're talking about. And I'm using the technique and everybody knows what the technique is because we explained it and we talked about it. You showed examples of it and then I use it and nobody picks up on it. And that's because it's one of those natural things that people just don't pick up on right away unless they're aware of it.

Yeah, I love when you point those little things out. It's excellent. So we're going to move on to the next question on stage. And then we're going to start to wrap this up. And so LIDA, you're up next. What is your question for Dr. Jack Shafer? Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for taking my question. It's actually lead up, but no worries. It's just a non-common name. But my question is when it comes to strangers and their embellishment of experiences and life in general, how do you practice the muscle that allows you to shed those white lies or just to ration out, you know, if it's like salaries and what have you to know the real back end just because

it is a stranger trying to brag about their personal life. Well, you could do is use a presumptive and say they have an inflated salary. You'll say, well, that's interesting. I read a report that is and then you can use a bracket between 50 and 60,000. Your salary is significantly more than that. And that's unusual. What they're going to do is to try to explain why they have such a high salary. But then you don't want to hurt their ego, though, right? Well, if you don't want to hurt their ego,

you agree with them and say, it's wonderful. You make a lot of money. I'm very happy for you. Oh, that's great. Thank you. So you use the bracket technique there, Jack, can you just dig a little deeper on using that bracket technique and why that works? Yeah, what happens is if you bracket something and you say you must be between 20 and 25 years old

and if you're anywhere near that bracket, they will actually insert the correct age. No, I'm 22. And I made the mistake. You talk about mistakes. I made a mistake. I was trying to demonstrate to a student how to get an age off somebody using bracketing. I walked into a store and I was like, wow, watch me.

I'll show you how to do it. And I went up to the lady and I said, well, you must be about my age, 50 to 55. She says, I'm 42. And we got our age, but we didn't develop a lot of report along the way. So I turned that into a learning experience for myself and the student.

When you bracket, it has to be within range. It can't be too far off. I love that. I can't wait to use that in something, because it's something brand new that I never knew about that. I can't wait to use that in something because it's something brand new that I never knew about that. I can't wait to use that. We're going to jump to Kat who's been on stage for really long time and she has her question here and it's actually super relevant. So Kat Eli, I'd love for you to ask your question to Dr. Jack Sheifer. Thank you so much. I've actually stayed

up for this because it's 2.40 am in the UK and it's been so interesting and I find it all fascinating because I've been super interested in like criminal minds and all that stuff for years. I was wondering Dr. Shaefer in regards to like presumptive questions and statements. We see them commonly when people want to see if someone is single so they say say something like, are you waiting for your husband or your girlfriend is lucky to have you? And they're waiting to have it confirmed or corrected. Are people usually aware of how powerful this form of questioning or statements are when they do it?

Or is it learned subconsciously? I think a lot of people intuitively can use these techniques and the example you use was was perfect about how somebody intuitive used it. The thing is it's important that you recognize the technique you know how to use the technique and therefore you don't have to rely on intuition you can intentionally use the technique rather than relying on intuition. So that gives you more power.

It's a powerful technique because it founds on that need to correct others. And if you can intentionally use the tool, then it's going to be a more powerful technique to use. Thank you so much. Does that mean that we aren't aware that we, like, where, where could we pick it up from? Is sort of what I'm getting at. Well, we we pick it up from is it's sort of what I'm getting at?

Well, we we can pick it up from a number of ways you you don't want to ask that person. Do you have a girlfriend? Are you married? That's that's kind of personal and you're intruding into that person's life. So you want to soften it up by going like like you like you said your your girlfriends lucky to have you and of course if that's not the case, they're gonna immediately correct that. And that's kind of a softer way to do it versus being rude. That's like asking somebody how much money they make. You want to know how much somebody makes.

You can't say how much money you make because that's rude. What you want to say is, you know, if the person's an engineer, why I heard engineers make, you know, like, upward of $1,000, and they'll just maybe roll their eyes and go like, ah, not really, maybe closer to 100. And then you can say, what, 105, 110,

and then you could use listation techniques successively to kind of narrow in what they make. And you get the same information without asking that direct question and they won't realize that they're giving that information up. Thank you so much. That's brilliant. Let me explain.

Thank you. Okay, guys, we are going through Q&A. I see there's a lot of hands raised. We have about 500 people in the room. I see that Dr. Jack Schaefer has over 200 followers, but I want that to hit 500, see that Dr. Jack Schaefer has over 200 followers, but I want that to hit 500 guys. Dr. Jack Schaefer has spent almost two hours with us. He might be spending two full hours with us.

So do me a favor if you're not yet. Follow Dr. Jack Schaefer. Follow him on Clubhouse because we want him to come back and host more rooms with us. We want to make it worth his while. So make sure you follow Dr. Jack Schaefer right here on Clubhouse. Make sure you follow Melissa Paulina, Molly,

Needy, Dimple, Mark. All these folks here on stage, give them a follow. They've been contributing to this conversation and show your support. That's Clubhouse etiquette is to follow the people on stage, especially if they're giving their time. A lot of us can be charging money for all of our time. Make sure you follow and support everybody.

We're going to kick it over to Mark. I know you have a question for Dr. Jack Shafer. What is your question for our amazing guest tonight? Hey, Holly. Thanks so much for the opportunity to ask questions. So Jack, one of the things I've noticed about social media is that everybody is an expert. Everyone knows everything. They've got thousands of followers.

Everyone's an expert. Some of them back in my mind is telling me that probably some of them are full of crap, so to speak. Jack, are there any red flags we should be looking for on social media to see if a coach, a business owner, an influencer is actually legit? Any red flags? Just by looking at their social media without interacting with them might be a little difficult. Well, how about if we interact?

If you interact with them, then you could use some elicitation techniques to try to get them to explain. Like if you, well, I'm trying to think of an example how you could do that I mean one of the things that I've noticed which is interesting is you know I'll follow someone on Instagram and one day they're getting thousands and thousands of likes on their posts And then the week the next week that all of a sudden they just start getting 10 likes on their posts, right? Like they're paying for followers. They're paying for likes You know it's in it's it's often very difficult to tell who's legit or who's not, you know, so I'm just looking for more

ways to get right into who someone actually is. Oh, that's difficult. You're going to have to talk to them and find out if they are in fact being truthful or not. You know, your situation with a ton of likes on one week and ten the next week that tells you something because the more people you have that listen to you, the more people that are experts and they can either affirm what you're saying or say, no, this guy doesn't always talking about. And so if that's the case, then they're not going to like you anymore. So that may be a indirect way to determine if somebody is being truthful or not.

Because if you're truthful, and people are going to want to continually follow you, and if you're not truthful, then they will break off and go elsewhere for information. Awesome. Thanks for the question, Mark. Okay. So we're going to move this Q&A along. We're going to move it along to Laura. What is your question for Dr. Jack Shefer? Hello. Thank you for allowing me on the stage. So Dr. Jack Schaefer, I have, I just want to know how could you deal with the Eagle Miniac and especially if they get hostile towards you.

What was the last part of it? Oh, I'm sorry, especially if they get hostile towards you. Well, if if somebody gets hostile towards you, you can use something called breaking the anger cycle. And if somebody's hostile, what you can do is you can take the essence of why they're hostile, and they'll typically tell you, you want to formulate an empathic statement, and then you want to allow them to vent again, and then they'll vent again, and then you could use another empathic statement, and you can just allow them to vent again and then they'll vent again and then you could use another empathic statement and you can just allow them to vent without throwing fuel on the fire because if somebody is in a parking lot all by themselves and they're angry and hostile then it's very difficult to maintain that unless somebody's

sitting next to them throwing fuel on that fire. So the main thing you want to do is using pathic statements to allow them to vent. And then when they get to inventing, you can suggest a course of action that will resolve the problem that they're having. Okay, how would that work in like a classroom setting? Because I am actually having this issue with someone in a classroom environment.

So I don't think I will have the opportunity to allow them to vent. Oh, okay. Um, you know, and I've run into that situation, not very often, but the one or two times I ran into that, I would always tell that person, why don't we discuss this, uh, after class and not make it a classroom event, make it an after class room event because a lot of people like an audience and that's class serves as an audience and then they will put themselves in a position where they feel they have to live up to what the audience expects them to do which is to confront

the instructor. So I would always say, you know, I know you have some strong feelings about this. Why don't we talk about this after class in my office, and that way you take the audience element out of it. And then then you can start using the controlling the anger cycle technique. Okay, thank you so much. The last thing you want to do is give somebody an audience because then they're gonna feel they have to live up to

what they think the aspect of them. And the last thing they want to do is lose face in front of their fellow students and you can't allow them to do that because then they won't budget all, they'll just keep being defiant. So I would just put it off and tell them that we should meet in my office after class.

Okay, thank you. That was way better than what I had in mind. You helped me out so much. Yeah, I love to hear that. That's what clubhouse is all about. We're going to go to the last question of the night. Samantha, you were the last question of the night. What is your question for Dr. Jack Schaefer? Thank you, Hala. So, Jack, first

I love listening to you. So, thanks so much. My question is, if someone lies repeatedly, is this something that they can recover from? Or is that the kind of behavior that just repeats throughout a lifetime? Yeah, a compulsive liar. I've run into several compulsive liars and once you call them out,

then they'll lie to cover the lie. And then if you call them out on the second lie, they'll do a third lie to cover the lie to cover a lie. And a lot of times, in this case, I had to work with this person. I just Recognized that every time that person Talked I would have to question his veracity and I would not call him out on it because I know that a second lie was coming So what I generally do is if I understand how a person acts and what they're doing if I understand that then I can deal with it It's the people that I don't understand how their behavior occurs, then I get frustrated with those people. But with a liar like that, if you have to work with them, then you're just going to have to call in the question and verify everything they say.

And that's what I did in this case. And it worked out well for me because I didn't make an end, but I knew that anytime this person said something, I'd have to verify it. Awesome. Samantha, great question about a liar. So that brings us to my last and final question the night for Dr. Jack Schaefer to close this out. Kind of helps summarize everything that we learned

in this amazing podcast episode that almost ran two hours long. Again, if you guys want the link to the full replay, DM me the word reply, we'll send you the link. That will be the link to Younger Profiting Podcast where you guys can get amazing interviews just like this. I have two excellent interviews each and every week. We do so much research.

I have a team of over 40 people who make sure that we have an amazing show each and every week. So make sure you guys DM me the word replace so that you guys can get a link to this amazing podcast. Dr. Jack Schaefer, the name of your new book is called Truth Detector. When I first saw your book, I was like, well, why didn't he call it lie detector?

It makes a lot more sense to call it lie detector instead of truth detector, but it turns out there's a big reason why you called it truth detector not lie detector. If you can explain that, and then just give us an overview about why elicitation is so powerful, and some of the key things that we learned today on today's podcast episode, I think that would be a great way to close out the show. Well, first elicitation is powerful because people don't know that they're reviewed into the information. And what you're doing is you're creating an environment

where people are predisposed to talk with you. Number one, you're gonna develop rapport with them. People who, like other people, will communicate with other people. And if you give them an opportunity to answer or correct, you know, tap into one of these human predispositions like to correct one another, to bracket, and to maybe seek recognition. If you can use those techniques that people want and crave to be the center of attention, then all you're

doing is create an environment where they feel comfortable talking to you. And when people feel comfortable talking to you, they when people feel comfortable talking to you, they talk a lot. And typically, when people talk a lot, they say things that they don't realize are sensitive information. So this breaks us to the basic point is that we want the best out of life, we want the best deals,

we want the best relationships, we want the best negotiating positions that we can get. And what we do in this case is use these solicitation techniques to get that privilege information so that we can achieve the best we can out of life. And there's no better way to get to know somebody than to allow them to talk about themselves and learn details about them that they wouldn't tell other people. Because when people share secrets and they share privilege information, it makes the relationship closer because there's trust built there. So elicitation is great in any aspect of life and the

beauty of it. People don't realize that you're using those techniques. And that's, it allows you to number one practice and number two, it allows you to get the best things out of law. Most of the time, the best things are the comfort privileged information. Try some of the techniques. Don't take my word for it. Well, it's very is to use these techniques and almost becomes natural. Like we talked about earlier, some people instinctively do it.

Now you'll have a name for the tool. You know how the tool operates. You know why it operates. And they're in gives you the power to get the knowledge you need to get the best out of life. Thanks so much for that, Dr. Schae and you know I know that I personally am so excited to try out some of these tactics and techniques. So I want to thank you and thank Hala for hosting this conversation. A really exciting moment happened during this room. Hala hit 10,000 followers here on Clubhouse. So I hope that everyone can give her some mic taps because she comes here every Tuesday and puts down these incredible conversations. So I just want to thank you, Hala,

and everyone here on the stage for this amazing discussion. Thank you so much, Need, here. I love when you join these rooms, and I think we're having you on a panel about mental health soon. So we're gonna have you up on here as a guest very soon, which is really exciting. Guys, this was such an amazing episode.

I really wanna thank Dr. Jack Schaefer again for being my first guest, everyone, young and profiting podcast, for coming on again for episode number 64. And then now, I don't even know what episode this is going to be number 100 something. And Dr. Jack Schaefer is back again with a new book, The Truth Detector, Amazing Insights.

I'm sure I'm going to have you on again, because there's so much material on this. And I feel like the stuff that you say is not in any other books, you know, it's all things that you can't really learn anywhere else which is why I love studying your work. So I'm sure I'm going to have you on again to talk about truth detection and how to really understand this stuff better. So thank you again so much Jack for all your time. This was a live episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. I'm your host, Halataha.

We are a number one education podcast across all apps. I've interviewed people like Matthew McConaughey, Ryan Sirhont, Robert Green, Chris Voss. You name it, they've been on my podcast. So check us out, you won't regret it. And thank you to everybody here on stage, Melissa Paulina, Molly, Neathee, Dimpo, Mark, my, my, Laura, Samantha, all the people who came up

and asked questions who were brave enough to ask questions. And with that, this is Hala, signing off, and friends. Thank you so much, Dr. Jack. And thanks everybody. Have a great night. Are you looking for ways to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Ruben, the number one best-selling author of the Happiness Project. And every week, we share ideas and practical solutions on the Happier with Gretchen Ruben

podcast. My co-host and Happiness Guinea Pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore fresh insights from cutting-edge science, ancient wisdom, pop culture, and our own experiences about cultivating happiness and good habits. Every week we offer a try this at home tip you can use to boost your happiness without spending a lot of time energy or money. Suggestions such as follow the one-minute rule. Choose a one-word theme for the year or design your summer. We also feature segments like know yourself better

where we discuss questions like are you an over buyer or an under buyer? Morning person or night person, abundance lever or simplicity lever, and every episode includes a happiness hack, a quick easy shortcut to more happy. Listen and follow the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin. Jessica, this is the happiest day of my life. Right up there with the day I bought my RV and insured it with progressive. Man, I love that thing. There are a million fish in the sea, which I'm reminded of every time I bring my RV to the lake, but I vow to love and cherish you. Just as much as I cherish campsites with full electric and water hookups. I'm so sorry.