Young and Profiting with Hala Taha - YAPLive: Negotiate Like A Boss With Chris Voss & Alex Carter | Uncut Version

Episode Date: June 4, 2021

We enter into negotiations big and small every day! Our ability to navigate these negotiations is often the deciding factor in us getting what we want or not getting what we want. But just the thought of “entering into a negotiation with someone” can be uncomfortable or even intimidating. We picture ourselves stuck in a win/lose scenario that ends with us being a winner or a loser. My guests today, the legendary Chris Voss and Alex Carter, have a very different view of negotiation. Chris Voss and Alex Carter have spent decades studying human behavior – Chris as an FBI hostage negotiator, and Alex as a negotiation trainer for the United Nations. In this episode, Chris and Alex reframe negotiation as a skill we can use to achieve the best possible outcome for all parties involved. The best part? This skill can be learned, and in today’s episode, Chris and Alex share their best practices for becoming a master negotiator. Let’s meet the guests! Chris Voss is a former FBI international hostage and kidnapping negotiator. He is the CEO & Founder of The Black Swan Group Ltd, a company that teaches negotiation tactics and leadership training to individuals and companies. Chris is the co-author of the Wall Street Journal best-selling book Never Split the Difference. Alex Carter is a professor at Columbia Law School and the director of Columbia Law School’s Mediation Clinic. In 2019, Alex was awarded the Columbia University Presidential Award for Outstanding Teaching. She is also an internationally renowned keynote speaker and negotiation coach, working with Fortune 500 companies, the United Nations, foreign governments, not-for-profit organizations, and more. Alex is the author of the Wall Street Journal Business bestseller, Ask for More.   Social Media: Follow YAP on IG: www.instagram.com/youngandprofiting Reach out to Hala directly at [e-mail] Follow Hala on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/htaha/ Follow Hala on Instagram: www.instagram.com/yapwithhala Follow Hala on ClubHouse: @halataha Check out our website to meet the team, view show notes and transcripts: www.youngandprofiting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode of YAP is sponsored in part by Shopify. Shopify simplifies selling online and in-person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash profiting. You're listening to YAP, Young and Profiting Podcast, a place where you can listen, learn, and profit. Welcome to the show! I'm your host, Halataha, and on Young and Profit. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Halla Taha, and on Young and Profiting Podcast, we investigate a new topic each week

and interview some of the brightest minds in the world. My goal is to turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your everyday life, no matter your age, profession, or industry. There's no fluff on this podcast, And that's on purpose. I'm here to uncover value from my guests by doing the proper research and asking the right questions. If you're new to the show, we've chatted with the likes of XFBI agents, real estate moguls, self-made billionaires, CEOs, and bestselling authors. Our subject matter ranges from

enhancing productivity, had to gain influence, the art of entrepreneurship, and more. If you're smart and like to continually improve yourself, hit the subscribe button because you'll love it here at Young and Profiting Podcast. Hey, everyone. You're tuning into a live episode of Young and Profiting Podcast. We are live here on Clubhouse in the human behavior club, the biggest club on Clubhouse,

and I'm your host, Halataha. Today we're joined by two past YAP former guests and fan favorites, Alex Carter and Chris Voss, who are the leading female and male negotiation experts in the world, respectively. Negotiation is often thought of these big one-time events, like landing a job and then negotiating a salary or buying a car.

But in reality, we negotiate every single day. And negotiations, big or small, use the same skills and tactics. This is why negotiation is one of my all-time favorite topics because we do it so often. Almost all of our interactions involve some sort of negotiation. And if you know how to negotiate And if you know how to negotiate, and if you know how to influence, you can make these little wins every single day that can really add up.

And you can rack up a whole lot of practice when it comes to negotiation for when it really matters. Needless to say, I'm super excited for today's topic of negotiation. And I'm very happy to have Chris Voss here on stage. He is a former FBI hostage negotiator, the CEO of the Black Swan Group and the co-author of the bestselling book Never Sput the Difference. And he also joined us on YAP back in episode number 23. So if you enjoy

this conversation, make sure you go check out number 23 with Chris Voss. And then we also have Alex Carter here on stage. She is a world-renowned negotiation trainer for the likes of the United Nations, Fortune 100 companies, and the U.S. government. She's also a professor at Columbia Law School, the author of the Wall Street Best Seller, asked for more. And she joined us back in episode number 86. So if you guys love this conversation today, I highly recommend you go check out number 23 and number 86 to get more info on negotiation and to further increase your skills in this area. So here's how today is gonna work.

We're gonna have a guided interview for about 60 minutes or so. And then I'm gonna open it up for Q&A and I'm hoping to make this as interactive as possible. So if during the interview you have a question, raise your hand, put that question in your bio. If it's relevant, I'm going to pull you up on stage so that you can ask it. And as a reminder, this is recorded for young and profiting podcasts. So I'm ready to get this started. Let's start off with an intro question. Let's get everybody warmed up here on stage. Alex, Chris, welcome. Thank you so much again for joining us here on Young

and Profiting Podcast. You are both at the top of your field. You are both best-selling authors and super credible negotiation experts. I'd love to start off with you guys walking us through your background, telling us what brought you into this field, how you first got interested in it, and how you became a master negotiator. Let's start off with Alex first. Thanks so much, Hala. This is great.

I'm thrilled to be here. And first of all, let me say, hi, Chris. It's lovely to meet you here on stage on YAP for the first time. So, Hala, yes. Like you said, I'm a law professor. And I think some folks would look at me

and assume that I came to be a negotiator by studying the theory or studying books. And that's not true. I actually study people. I've been studying people my whole life. I think I'm one of the more curious people you'll ever meet. It's interesting I'm a professor, but I think of myself as a lifelong student. I'm really interested bottom line in what motivates people to do what they do And so I ended up in law school an interesting place to be for somebody who's curious about humanity and

There I encountered this course called mediation, which is basically the art of helping people negotiate high conflict and often high stakes disputes. But here's the thing, it wasn't a classroom course, it was a clinical course, meaning you needed to actually do it. People yelling at each other, making threats, arguing for years over destroyed businesses, destroyed relationships, and you're the one who has to help them get through that to the other side. And I swear the first time I stepped into a room full of screaming people and I helped get control of that room and turn it into a handshake. I just knew this was it. It felt like jumping out of a plane to me, Hala, it was exhilarating.

You just showed up and you never knew what you were going to get. Banking disputes, human rights issues, love triangles, I felt like eventually I was an ER doctor or an Uber driver I had seen it all. And I learned so much from every person and every conflict that over time, I realized I developed a negotiation strategy that really worked, not from books, not from theory, but

from people, studying thousands of people, and seeing what got results. And what I saw was that the best negotiators asked the best questions. And I knew that if more people knew this, if they knew how to ask the right questions, they wouldn't need to wait until their life was in crisis and they were seeing me as a mediator, they could use these tools to make their lives better. And that's what I wanted to help them do.

Awesome, Alex. We're thrilled to have you too. Chris, I'd love to understand for those of us who don't know you a little bit about yourself and how you became a master negotiator. Well, that's a high bar to aspire to. So first of all, I'd like to create meeting you, great being on the same stage with you. I'm not sure I'm a master negotiator. I think of myself much more as a negotiation coach,

which is what my company does. I mean, a black swan group, we coach people at all levels and recruited a bunch of hostage negotiators come into this. I wanted to be an FBI hostage negotiator and when I approached the woman that was in charge of it in New York, she pronounced me eminently unqualified. But I very much believe that with enough hard work and persistence, if somebody gives you the proper path, then she told me to go volunteer on a suicide hotline if I wanted to shot it at all. And I did, which shocked her that I actually followed her advice. So, you know, sort of started an entire journey for me of human nature, which is a lot what Alex was just talking about

a moment ago, sort of this being interested in human nature and also being interested in getting things done. Because I think one of the things I learned on the hotline about empathy back then, which applies to everything, is that empathy is actually an accelerator for outcomes.

So a couple of things happen in a bureau, change roles, and ended up overseeing all of our negotiation strategy for international kidnappings, which is kidnapping is a commodities deal. Commodity happens to be human beings, which is horrifying. But to the other side, it's a day at work. And so what I really needed to learn how to do was understand negotiation, drop me literally in any country, anywhere in the world, find somebody who's coachable. They know the market, I know human nature responses and negotiation, and I'd coach them up. And that's really what

we're doing a lot of these days is we're coaching people to better outcomes and it's pretty cool. I enjoyed a lot. Awesome. Thanks so much, Chris. Some people say that negotiation is about winning and losing and some people say it's not about winning and losing. It's about compromise.

So I'd love to understand from you guys, what do you think? Are there winners and losers when it comes to negotiation? Why don't we start off with Chris and then go to Alex? Winning and losing slash bargaining, that's a zero sum game. I win you lose. The negotiation really is a positive sum game, which had we both ended up better off, which again, compromised by definition is guaranteed downward spiral. I mean, just let me, I hate the word. Would you compromise your principles? You compromise your morals. If it's compromising who you are as a human being is a bad idea, then how

is compromising in negotiations? It's a bad idea. I could get into why it creates a downward spiral. But the zero-sum game people believe that, you know, their best negotiations are when both sides are a little unhappy. I ask you are the best marriages when both sides are a little unhappy. Probably not. But the positive some game, because I win doesn't mean you have to lose. And it's about curiosity and discovery and sort of being able to stay in that mindset depending on the pawn, regardless of who's on the other side of the table. So I see it as a positive some game, not everybody does, but we coach it for a positive some game. Classic example is to why it's neither win nor lose nor compromise I'm in an event in Scottsdale, Arizona just a couple weeks ago

One of those private jet companies is just open up in Scottsdale their whole reception But he mine is invited he brings me along as part of his entourage. I meet both the owner and their top salesperson The owner has told me that he studied the block and has helped advance the company. His top salesperson tells me in front of his boss that he used the coaching, the negotiation that we coach in his employment deal. Now if that was either when lose or compromise, that conversation between the three of us, one of those two guys would have been angry.

But they were both happy because the boss got a better employee who's working his tail off because he's got a great job and vice versa. They're both happy. So there was no losing that. They both happy. So there was no losing that they both won. And that's why, if you take it as a positive some game, everybody's better off. Yeah, Chris, we're having a mind meld here because you said a couple of things that I completely agree with. One is that I absolutely hate the word compromise. For the reasons you mentioned, but also because it induces in people

a feeling of loss. I hate compromise and I hate concession. I'm going to ask you about this Chris at the end of my answer, but I don't know what you use as a replacement. I like to use the word contribution. Make someone feel like a donor. Make them feel magnanimous. You know, here's what I can contribute and what can you contribute toward a deal. You know, and I also agree with Chris on the winner and loser. You know, to have a true winner and loser, you've got to be raising the same exact course for one prize. Awesome. So I know that when it comes to negotiation, preparation is key. A lot of people don't realize that you

don't just show up to the negotiation. You have to think about it beforehand and have a strategy, do some research, get in the right mental state. So can you guys suggest how we can get into that headspace and prepare best for the negotiation? Alex, why don't we kick it to you first and then go to Crest? Yeah, absolutely. So the first negotiation you have in every circumstance is the one you're having with yourself before you arrive at the table. And that was a place that I saw a lot of people, even really educated, experienced people go wrong. You know, they didn't know the right questions to ask themselves before they sat down because if you've ever arrived in a negotiation and you have a panicky moment or you're having difficulty making decisions or you blank, chances are you're doing that

because you didn't take the right look in the mirror. It's about really figuring out naming the problem that you're going in there to solve. Taking an inventory of really what you need out of that situation, yes, dealing with your feelings and devising some strategy, some steps you can take. Because here's the thing, sort of similar to running a race or, you know or the type of thing we were talking about before, whether you're on the track or you're in a kayak, there's a certain amount that you can control. And then there's a certain amount that's out of your control.

And so preparation, doing that internal negotiation, that's part of what you get to control and it's part of regulating not just your brain, you know your emotions your body Everything you need to then go in and negotiate with somebody else. It's a physical endeavor Negotiations involves every bit of your body in mind and so the work you do beforehand That's what's gonna help sustain you once you sit down at the table. I love that, Chris. What are you saying? How do we get into the right head space for a negotiation and prepare our best? The easiest, quickest mechanism. I mean, we've got actually, you know, in a black swan group, we've got a very short, nice block of instruction we call caviar, which is about preparation, which is about mindset. The scene caviar is curiosity.

That's the quickest hack, the simplest mechanism, to be genuinely curious, and a number of emotional intelligence reasons why that works. First of which is, you can't be in a negative frame of mind when you're genuinely curious. It's impossible to be angry. It's possible to be upset. Being really actually curious about where the other side's coming from, walls you wall from some negative emotions to start out with. And it's not emotions that are bad for decision-making.

It's negative emotions. So how do you get into and keep yourself in a positive state of mind? A lot of the same things that you do to do maintenance on your life because we're wired to be negative. Our survival, our our limbic system, our wiring in our head, survival mode is largely negative. That's what kept the cave men alive. Success mode is positive, but it's not our natural wiring. So, if you're doing regular mental hygiene to keep yourself in a positive frame of mind, whichever one should do, works very similar for you in negotiations. That's the shortest, simplest step. Also, by definition, you can have a great goal from the beginning,

but it's literally impossible to know the best outcome because you don't have all the information. Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better. That's a definition of flexibility. How do you get that in an negotiation? The first step is to be in a positive frame of mind, because if you really go focused, what that means is you've got on blinders, you've got tunnel vision, and you're likely to pass by a better deal

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to the next level today. Again, that Shopify.com-profiting Shopify.com-profiting all lowercase. This is possibility powered by Shopify. I think such profiting all lower case. This is Possibility powered by Shopify. I think those are all really great strategies. So how about small talk? Because I understand that when somebody likes you, they're more likely to buy from you,

they're more likely to be on your side. So how important is building rapport when it comes to a negotiation? What do you guys think? Go ahead, Chris. I like you actually asked two questions, two separate issues because you brought up small talk and you brought up rapport. A rapport is critical for any to lead to real influence, lasting, durable, low maintenance and influence. And rapport is completely separate. Did I tell jokes? Did you think I was funny?

That sort of stuff. Reports to critical aspect in actually using empathy, deploying it, having the other side feel that you understand, and reports develop. Now, a couple more steps that go beyond that, but I view reports very much as a necessary element. Now, small talk, three different ways to think about it. One of which, you know, it's data, it's information, it's an opportunity for you to observe the other person to get a read on that them to actually pay attention to them. Some people about roughly one and three. You know, they need, depending upon the circumstances, they're not being forced into a conversation,

like Alex was talking about, but about one of three people need to feel that there was, you know, a pleasant interaction without any hooks. Let's just talk because I genuinely want to hear about you. I want to know about you day. And those people are again, roughly what we believe to be one and three, but they are there. Now, small talk also is a great way, if you're in a mercenary business, and I'm in the mercenary and the missionary business, which means I want to engage in small talk because I want to know what somebody looks like when they're telling the truth. It's a way of lie detector works.

Any individual person might have nine, ten, eleven ways that they lie, but if they tell the truth, they have one way they tell the truth. Somebody puts you on a polygraph, the polygrapher asks you questions that you should answer truthfully, what day is it, what's your name, where are you? That's all to draw all the data on what you look like when you're telling the truth. If you tell the truth, if you tell the truth, you tell the truth pretty much one way. You might lie seven ways. Then when they get into questions if they've got a nice solid line

on what you look like when you're telling the truth, you know, then if your heart rate goes up, if your breathing changes, if you look up and then a laugh, then you look down. The floor doesn't matter, you're out of your true telling mode. Now, small talk is a way to draw a bead on what somebody like looks like when they're telling the truth.

Hey, how was the drive over here today? What was traffic light? And would you have a breakfast? Did you enjoy your breakfast? At small talk, it's also data. So it's all information and what are you looking for? And if you're looking to get to the best deal and have a great relationship, then holding those things in your mind is going to help you. And again, probably there's no such thing as small talk. It all has a purpose

and helps build the relationship and helps build a better deal. So good. Thank you so much, Chris. Let's talk about some tactical ways to get the upper hand in a negotiation. So both of you guys say that getting information is really important. So Alex says, a negotiation is a conversation in which you are skeering the relationship. Chris says it's an act of discovery where you are trying to learn as much as possible, but both of you, I think, both agree that it's all about collecting information and knowing both

perspectives and information is basically power and a negotiation. So what are some practical tips when it comes to discovery? So either steering the conversation or collecting information, what are your top tips? Let's go to Alex and then Chris. Great question, Holla. So I think my number one tip could be summed up as don't rush. I think so many people fear negotiation or they have anxiety around it, that they're basically looking to get in and get out as quickly as possible. And that means for many people is going in and kind of vomiting up what they need, their positions, etc. Which maybe they think gives them the upper hand, but just reveals them to be not only anxious, but also totally incurious. And I love what Chris says about curiosity.

Curiosity is going to make or break your deal. And so if you go in and you're focused on yourself and getting out of there as quickly as possible, I would even say, if you're focused, I'm going to quibble with your question a little bit, hollet. If you're focused on getting in and getting the upper hand and the other person sees that you're trying to get the upper hand, that action is going to be met with an equal and opposite reaction. So the way I approach it is it's a process, right? And the reason I talk about negotiation is just one of any number of conversations where

you're steering a relationship is because, you know, here's the thing. Most people think about the performance review. They think of the immediate lead up to when they negotiate a deal. A lot of people call me for private coaching right around that particular juncture, but it's not just the money conversations or the resource conversations. It's every conversation. And if you've been steering really, really well,

which means you're doing a lot of listening, you are asking fantastic questions. You are summarizing after the other person speaks, so you're showing to them that you are listening. In other words, you're spending a lot of time up front in that process of being curious and getting information. And that information is what you need to steer. It really comes down to the basics.

Every time I see a negotiation course and I see people teaching like decision trees for it, you know, how to, how to, you know, make super complicated decisions on the back end, I just want to say, you're never going to get there. If you don't master the fundamentals of great listening, great questions, summarizing, and silence. Those tools are going to get you so, so far, and then you'll have time for all the decision trees you want in the world. But the advanced negotiators, you want to use that word quote, unquote, advanced, are just the people who bring an advanced level of awareness to the stuff that seems basic. Oh my gosh, so good. Alex just repeat those four key things. You said silence, summarizing questions, and what was the fourth?

Great listening, great questions, summarizing, and silence. Love that. So Chris, I'd love to hear from you. What are your top tips to get information and a negotiation? Very much along the lines what Alex was was just talking about. I mean the other side is dying to talk Just dying. Let him go first hear him out as you know as the house is gonna go shitter. We stay the phrase What's gonna take to get the bad guys out? He's gonna tell ya, but not directly, which meant you gotta get him talking. You gotta interact lightly with them

to let him know that you're interacting. I mean, no matter who is on the other side of the table, they are dying to tell you what they want and what led them to what they want. And that's solid data, and they're gonna love that you listen. So as Alex was talking about listening, I mean, attentively listening, actually listening

versus waiting for your turn to talk. That builds rapport that helps them feel bonded to you that helps build trust in the interaction and increases the chances that they're going to tell you the stuff they're hiding because they're horrified to tell you because they feel like you would gain leverage power any of those you know binary negotiation terms that people are so afraid of but you can't make a better deal unless you hear them out. So, yet getting them talking in a way that they don't feel judged,

counter-attacked, or any of the other things that diminish rapport, getting them talking is a real key to coming up with a great deal. I totally agree. So I'm gonna dig into some individual strategies that both of you guys use to get more information and to get some more actionable tips because everybody that listens to younger profiting podcasts, we love actionable advice. And so Alex, you have the words, the phrase, tell me,

and you use this to get more information from my understanding. So I'd love to understand why are the words tell me so powerful? And how can we use that? Yeah, tell me is what I call the world's most open question, because it allows the other person to tell you whatever they want about any topic they choose. So often in life, we think we're asking an open question and we really aren't. On the maze, I run an exercise at a number of different top flight organizations and

I ask people to get some information about something totally mundane. I've just taken a family vacation. You'd like to get some info on that. It's remarkable the people, questions people ask me. They ask me, did you have fun? The answer to that is yes, or no, or maybe. Or they'll ask me, where did you go? And that's a two word answer, I'd say Cape Cod.

But when you say Alex, tell me all about your trip. That's an open license for me. When you sit down with someone, you say, tell me about your vacation or tell me your perspective or tell me your view. Sometimes even just tell me, people open up. And as Chris was saying before, that's what you want. That person is dying to tell you their story. Each negotiation is about a story. Often it's about multiple stories,

which is the reason people got in the room in the first place. Each one of them has a different story. And when you ask someone to tell you whether it is your 10 year old daughter in the home, like mine, whether it's somebody you're closing a deal, whether you are on trying to negotiate to save somebody's life, that to me is the sincere opener that allows that person to really open up and start to show you who they are and what they value. And that's going to be the single biggest difference maker in negotiation. I see Chris clapping over there, I think he agrees. So Chris, I know that you have a very well-known

strategy called verbal mirroring and basically you use this to summarize like Alex was mentioning before with a person who was saying and get more information. So can you teach us about mirroring and if there's another tip that maybe I didn't mention that you want to share that would be great as well. So if you wanna be a Black Swan, if you wanna learn the Black Swan method, one of the really cool techniques that we brought from hostage negotiation

was something we call Merrick. Now, Black Swan's Merr is, it's not that body language thing, you know, where if you put your right hand to your chin, I put my right hand to my chin, I put my right hand to my chin. It's not that's not the Black Swan Mirror. Black Swan Mirror is repeating the last one to three ish words of what somebody's just said. And when you get that skill down, then yeah, you can move it around and pick out a specific one

to three words that you want to have them expand on. And it's really easy, it's so mechanistic, if you will, some people don't like it because it seems too simple. It's a great skill for when you're caught off guard. Like if somebody just, what they've just said just kind of blows your mind. And the first time I really got a big difference in a mirror was negotiate a bank robbery with

hostages in Brooklyn. Guys on the other side of the table principal bank robber. I didn't realize that at the time was exhibiting all the characteristics of like a great CEO negotiator. He was so controlled that when he first got on a phone with the PD's negotiator that was first up, I was second up. He literally told the PD negotiator that he was calmer than the police department negotiator was. So how did marrying help me with this guy? We get his name, which he's not given to us

because he realizes it's hard to establish rapport with someone who doesn't give their name. We figure out who he is, we find out his van is outside, we get a voice ID on him from a neighbor. They put me on the phone and they want me to brace this guy that we know who he is as quickly as I can. And I'm going to do a kind of gently. So I start I say hey look You know, we got we got a van out here. We've we've found the owners of every one of them except one van

And he said well, we only have one van. I go Only one van He goes no, we have more than one vehicle and I married again. I said you got more than one vehicle And he said you chased my driver away. I married again, I chased your driver away. Now, understand, I'm confused by everything he's saying to me at the moment. And each time I mirrored him, he loses a little more control. And then finally, when he says we chase your driver away, his getaway driver had gotten away. We had no idea there was a third accomplice there. And that spontaneous admission led to the conviction

of the driver. What's the point? This mirror tool that you can use when you're completely off guard is likely to keep the other side talking and if a controlled bank robber control freak negotiator is going to make spontaneous admissions it'll work in all negotiations and then the cool thing that I love about mirrors is maybe because it's so simple, we find, you know, the people that we coach, the high IQ and high EQ people love mirrors, love them. And maybe it's because they're so simple as to why they love those. Now, I'm neither high IQ nor high EQ. So to me, it's one more tool, but the really people that really like concise, simple ways to steer conversations love mirrors.

And for those of you guys who are still confused in terms of like how to use a mirror, let's give an example. Why don't Alex and Chris why don't you guys give an example of mirroring together? Give an example together? Yeah like Alex maybe say something and then Chris can mirror that so that everybody gets an example of how it works All right ladies and gentlemen. I just mirrored how And she went on to give me a much folder explanation of what she was looking for That's what a mirror looks like That was perfect and I totally fell for it, so that was great. Okay, so let's talk about questions because aside from all these other like more covert

tactics to get information, you can actually just ask a question to get information. So Alex, tell us the importance of asking questions and how we can formulate the right questions to better prepare for negotiations and have better outcomes. So, you know, questions, there's research to show that 7% of people, a whopping 7% of people, know the right questions to ask at the table to get the most out of that deal. And I'm not just talking about generating trust, although asking those, you know, questions will definitely gain trust. But I'm talking about doing the best monetarily at the table. And the very best questions to ask are what's called diagnostic questions. What does that mean?

It's a fancy negotiation term, meaning open questions. So questions that start with what how or tell me. By the way, tell me is actually not a question. It's a command, but it reads like a question. And so it works exceptionally well. I will say that Chris and I align on one thing. And I was so pleased to read this, Chris. And for all of you in that house tonight who haven't picked up Chris's book, never split the difference, I really enjoyed it. I read it once I finished writing mine

and where we align is that we both really don't like the word why, using why to start a question. Why was something that I instinctually avoid it as a mediator for many years without really putting words to why I was avoiding the why? And the reason is that when you ask why you get a because why is a backward looking question that reads like blame? And that is what you absolutely do not want to do in negotiation. Instead, I like to move from why to what? So instead of why did you do that, what went into that?

Or even tell me about the decision. That is a question that moves from the past to the future. It moves from blame to diagnosis. It really helps you stay curious and stay in information gathering modes so that you're going to get as much as possible. So, when it out, start your questions with what, how or tell me, and that's when you're going to be the most successful at negotiation. Not to say that you can't ever ask a closed question. Sometimes, you know, later on, you hear people kind of circling around what sounds like a deal, and there can be incredible power in saying something like, I think I just heard

that we have a deal here, right? Am I wrong? And then having their person say, nope, Alex, you're right. And that's when you can check it off and move on. But at the beginning of the negotiation, you are in search mode. You want to start as open as possible. The next question I want to talk about is F words. So both of you guys talk about F words in negotiation. And essentially, you say there are some important words that we need to understand.

So Chris's F word is fair, and Alex's F word is feelings. So let's start with Chris first, and then we'll move on to Alex. Chris, tell us about the word fair and why you think that is so crucial when it comes to negotiations. Yeah, you know, it's kind of nuts. It's amazing. There's almost never negotiation where the F bomb fair doesn't come up because when people feel backed into a corner, it can be a very defensive

innocent, if you will, think to say because they're not sure they're feeling they're on the losing end and they'll say, just I just want what's fair I just want to be treated fairly and it'll cause the other side To rethink themselves. Am I being unfair? I mean it's an accusation in disguise and a lot of people say it innocently Because they don't know where to go. They're actually expressing a tremendous amount of vulnerability in that moment because don't know where to go. They're actually expressing a tremendous amount of vulnerability in that moment, because if they could articulate specifically why they were being treated unfairly, if there were any external criteria, they'd point to them. And the first time I ever heard this of a person

in a negotiation instructor, there's one of the best human beings that I've ever met. They're in the middle of selling their house and the housing market had dropped substantially. And this person said, well, we just want a fair offer. And the buyer raised their offer. Now, it's not the buyer's fault, the market dropped. That was a market price for the house. And the seller felt victimized by the circumstances and they toss us out. And I remember thinking, wow, you know, she didn't mean to be manipulative, but it was an emotional cheap shot for lack of a better tone thrown out there

very innocently. Now, flip side, you know, I just want what's fair. I've given you a fair offer. That's so effective for the sharks and the cut-roads that they know if they're having trouble getting you to accept the offer. If they just say, we've given you a fair offer, it's going to cause you to question whether or not you're being fair or unfair. And so it comes up in a lot of other venues because it's such an effectively emotional manipulation tool. So if the word comes up, what does this mean for you as a takeaway? First of all, how does the black swan group teach

people to do it? I'll start out by saying, if at any point in time you feel treated unfairly, let me know and we'll stop and we'll fix it. That's how the only way we deployed the word when we're coaching you. What do we want you to know if you hear it on the other side? Understand if somebody says they think they're being treated unfairly, whether they're shark or whether just a decent person, at that point in time, they feel pretty defenseless. Now, you've got some great information that you need to be really careful with, because when they feel defenseless is not the time to go in for the kill.

When they feel defenseless is a particular time to show even more empathy and more understanding so that they feel comfortable with you being behind their defenses because they know that you're not going to hurt them. But in all cases, if somebody drops the F bomb on you, they feel defenseless and just be careful with that information. Yeah, bam. If you're ready to take your business to new heights, break through to the six or seven figure mark or learn from the world's most successful people, look no further because the Kelly Roach show has got you covered. Kelly Roach is a best-selling author, a top-ranked podcast host, and an extremely talented marketer. She's the owner of NotOne, but six thriving companies, and now she's ready to share her knowledge and experience with you

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So interesting. So Alex, I don't know if you have anything you want to bounce off in terms of the fair F bomb word or if you just want to go into your F word, which is feeling it's up to you. I'd love to hear your thoughts I love it and in fact when I saw that we both had an F word section in our books I thought well I was born in Brooklyn I'm not sure what Chris's excuse is, but obviously we both love a good F bomb You know, it's fascinating, Chris, because I've heard so many people in negotiation use your F-bomb, fair, and my response every time is, tell me what fair looks like to you.

I've almost never gotten a concrete response to that question, right? So my experience very much accords with yours. I say that and the person responds with a dodge. They say, well, Alex, I just want what's reasonable. And that is basically like a neon sign saying, I'm actually not sure what it is that I think is fair or what I'm looking for in this situation.

And what I have to do there, Chris, you talked about this being really difficult to handle. You've got to handle it with care is absolutely right. And if I have a group of people in front of me and one of them has just said, I only want what's fair and then can't explain himself as a mediator, I'm very, very conscious of preserving that person's dignity. If I pull his pants down in the front of the room,

by pointing out that he doesn't know what he wants, and he can't define what fair is, that negotiation is over. I failed at my job. And so, what do I have to do? I put people in a caucus room. And the reason I do it is because your F-BOM intersects with my F-BOM, which is feelings. People think all the time that feelings get in the way of decisions.

And the news I have for you is that no feelings are how we make decisions. If you write your feelings down ahead of the negotiation, it does two powerful things. One, it takes some of the sting out of them. There's something about seeing your feelings on paper. You know, and Chris, you mentioned before that people often approach things, you know, fearing the worst, right? It's like our limbic system goes into overdrive and, you know, we're catastrophizing before we even get in the room. But there's something about seeing that catastrophizing written out on paper that makes you look and say,

is that likely it is not? The other thing it does is that it really helps you then gain control so that once you get in the room, you're not captive to those feelings anymore. You've taken a look in the mirror, you've confronted them. And so that's a great way to kind of clear the decks before you get in so that you can breathe and be in the moment and not lose your cruel because of the emotions that you haven't confronted. So good, Alex. So let's stick on emotions for a second. So Chris, you always talk about labeling emotions

and how that can kind of defuse what's going on. So why don't we use the big two that Alex just brought up, fear and guilt? How would you use labeling to mitigate those emotions in a negotiation? Well, concern is a great disguised word for fear. So, you know, you can say, what are your concerns? We could say it sounds like you have some concerns. Anytime you're going after a negative emotion, and there's a fair amount of neuroscience that backs us up,

just simply labeling it, calling it out, not denying it. It's the elephant in the room. You don't get rid of the elephant in the room by denying that it's there, and that's the denying negative emotions. The most efficient way is neither is inventing or ignoring it, not commenting on it at all. But the labeling negatives show from the data that I've seen diminishes at every time. Now, diminishes to varying degrees. A lot has to do with how you deliver it. So if I sensed guilt, you know, I wouldn't say it sounds like you feel guilty because that's

an accusation with my tone of voice. But if I really wanted that to land and my gut instinct was telling me that it was there, I'd probably say some of the effective sounds like you feel guilty. Now that simple change in inflection lets that land softly. You know, they don't feel accused. There was genuine curiosity. People are threatened by genuine curiosity. It's a great way to get something like that to land. And you can self-label too.

Everybody listening to us right now. I'll give you an example. I'm coaching some real estate agents earlier today and one really successful agent has never gotten full fee but wants to ask for She's in an environment where everybody is discounting discounting discounting ridiculous discounting. She said I'm just trying to work up my courage to ask for full fee. I know I should do it. I'm working on my courage. And I said all right now repeat after me. I know I should do it. I'm working on my courage. And I said, right now, repeat after me. And I said, say this, I'm scared to ask for full fee. She said, I'm scared to ask for full fee. And I said, now, say it three more times. And she said it three more times.

And then I said, how do you feel now? And she said, yeah, I'm not scared anymore. How do you feel now? And she said, yeah, I'm not scared anymore Labeling the negatives diminishes them as long as you don't do it in an accusatory fashion. I love that. Thank you so much Chris Chris you called your book never split the difference. So tell us your opinion of trade-offs concessions. How do you feel about that? Concession is a loss. It triggers a downward spiral. The anti-conumn and Nobel prize behavioral economics 2002, a loss thinks twice as much as an equivalent gain. What does that mean in your negotiations? You get the other side to concede, let's say $5. Well, they didn't feel like they conceded $5. If a loss thinks twice as an

equivalent gain, they felt like they got hit for $10. What loss thinks twice as much as an equivalent gain they felt like they got hit for $10. What's going to make them feel even with you? They have to hit you for 10 or they're not going to feel okay. What happens when they hit you for 10? You're human. You're not going to feel okay unless you get them back for 20. That's why concession is a downward spiral. It stings people. It's in their view never quote fair. And that's just a guarantee of a downward spiral. And you just don't want to get into it. Even if you don't like them, you don't want to get into it because it's bad for you long term. Now trade offs, you know, what's your definition of a tradeoff? Does it make the deal better for me and do they not feel like they get stung? If it makes the deal better, then I want to find out how

it makes it better for both of us. What some people might call tradeoffs, I don't see it that way at all. I see, if I give you something that's worth five to me, but it's worth 25 to you, it's probably a non-monetary term. So if we explore what really makes a great deal between the two of us, we really get out of this concession trade-off giveaway dynamic and we're into a collaborative relationship and then some of those terms that come up in traditional negotiation, which is when lose zero sum game, they just fall away when you're looking to make it a positive sum game. That's some awesome advice, Chris. So I'm going to ask you guys one last question because I think it's important and then we're going to kick it over to Q&A. So I want to know how

do we turn a no into a yes, Alex, let's go to you So I wanna know how do we turn a no into a yes, Alex. Let's go to you and then Chris, how do you turn a no into a yes? Don't argue, don't be focused on the yes. Your first focus should be to take the gift of the no and use that to thoroughly understand the holdups to the deal, to understand the person, be curious, ask them about their concerns, and really listen. Not just fake listen, really listen, repeat back their concerns,

honor those concerns, and if you treat them with generosity and with curiosity, that's when eventually you are going to get to the yes. So good, Chris, how do you turn a no into a yes? Well, I got a crazy answer for you. I mean, when you're being coached by the Black swans, we don't bother with yes at all. We used to say yes is nothing without how, and now we say yes is nothing. Period. How is everything? So if you get off of yes,

because the other problem with yes is it's used to trap so many people, there's a bit of a yes-battered response in every human being. They've probably been trapped by yes before. So just get out of yes entirely. You're gonna find your conversations to get real interesting. Awesome.

All right, guys, we're gonna move into Q&A. So I'm gonna go to Dr. Aditi. I love your question that you have. Are you there flash your mic? Let me know that you're there. Awesome. So if you could ask your question to Chris, it looks like it's directed to, but I think Alex will have someone to say to this as well. Thanks, Hala and Sohib. It's so wonderful to meet you Alex and Chris. It's so wonderful to meet you, Alex and Chris. So my disclaimer is that I have read both of your books as well as getting to yes, and those are my three favorite negotiation books. Chris, I remember once in a room with Nicole a few months ago, you know, you made a comment about women being excellent negotiators and often better than men,

which is something that we don't socially think of. We think of men as master negotiators and women are just not. Could you speak a little bit about that, Chris? Why did you say that? Why do you believe that? There's a lot of women on stage here, so I'd love to hear from you, your wisdom, and Alex too. That's cool. Thank you very much. Very kind words, and thanks for mentioning my good friend Nicole Benham. I mean, if you find her on Clubhouse, follow her very sharp and I'm glad she's a friend of mine. So I'll make a slight adjustment because I haven't quite committed to women being bad in the negotiators. Although I think that argument is easy to make based on our data.

But what we've seen consistently is this emotional intelligence style and negotiation that is a black swan method. Women are picking it up faster than men are. There's no shortage of hypothesis on our side as to why. We just see it consistently. We've seen it consistently in the different business schools that we taught in, and we see it in application and certain types of really highly evolved emotional intelligence applications of this

that the women are hitting a much higher success rate than the men are. Exactly why that is. I think a contributing factor is whether it's nature or nurture globally, women are nurtured to be a more emotionally sensitive early on, to be more aware of soft power. You know, the little boys are taught to fight it out, and little girls probably aren't. I mean, for whatever the nurturing reason is, it's more likely that the emphasis for women is on emotional intelligence, different aspects of it, soft-powered different aspects of it,

sooner than it is for men. I think that's one of the contributing factors. I think another thing too is these days, basically negotiation still has a reputation as hard bargaining, be aggressive, be loud, be demanding, to be a jerk for lack of a better term. When people are preparing for negotiations, the first person they expect to see on the other side of the table is a jerk. And I think with a more evolved emotional intelligence skill set, that by and large women don't want to be jerks. And so when they see an emotional intelligence-based style

that really focuses on relationships and not being a jerk, I think they tend to be drawn to it sooner than the men are. At the top end, personally, a person just needs to be coachable and willing to work and wanting to have great relationships and neither gender has a market corner on that. I just think women happen to get a faster start than men do for nurturing reasons.

Thanks, Chris. Alex, I'd love to kick it to you on this. Her question was, why are women the best negotiators? But I have a slightly different question for you. What are the gender differences that we should be aware of when it comes to negotiation? And are there gender differences? Or is that just kind of hearsay or a misconception

that there are actual gender differences in the way that people negotiate? Yeah, so I wanna say a couple of things. This is a great question. And Dr. Aditi, I'm so glad you're here and glad that you asked it. We all know, right, that gender, as Chris was saying, is it's a package of things, right?

It's a package of some biology and some social and cultural expectations. And at our heart, I believe that most human beings want the same thing, regardless of their gender. They want the mirror. They want to be seen, fully seen, and understood, and acknowledged. And if we first satisfy that basic human need, we are going to be the most effective negotiator regardless of whatever gender the person is that we are negotiating with.

There is research on women, some of what Chris talked about, exceptional relational skills. You know, one of the reasons I talk to people about negotiating being more than just the money conversations is because I want to let them know, more than just the money conversations is because I want to let them know, including women, it's not just the performance review, it's not just the immediate lead up to the deal. It's all of the great stuff that you do before, during, and after. The things that you might be really exceptional at, all of those go into helping you get the most at the table.

But for women, we do ask, sometimes less than men in certain situations, and sometimes when we do ask, we are penalized. Women can walk a tightrope. On the one side, Dr. Aditi and I might be considered as too nice, or not enough leadership potential. On the other side, we might be too aggressive. We're unlikable, right? We're trying to be too masculine and this causes

us to be sidelined. And so there is that tightrope in the middle and there are certain strategies that work exceptionally well for that. One of them that I'll mention tonight is called the I-We. It's saying, in effect, I'll pick someone on stage, Mario, here's what I'm asking for, and here's how we are all going to benefit. So in other words, it remains strong on what it is that you're going in there to do, but it ties it to a communal concern that has been shown to perform exceptionally well for women and to help us combat some of that stereotyping penalty that we can receive.

Other interesting information that I've learned over the years, women do better. The longer we're at the table, it might be that we're great at reading cues. It might be that we gathered that baseline, but for the women in the crowd, people who identify as women, stay at the table, don't be in a rush, the longer you're there, the better you're going to do. Last thing I want to say to everybody here, if you have a young girl in your life, I want

you to teach her and model her what it means to ask for more. One of the more depressing pieces of research I've read recently is that the gender gap in negotiation starts at age 8. Age 8. I remember reading that and thinking I have a 10-year-old in the home, my mission in life is for her to know. And not just because I say it, because she sees mom go out and do it. I want her to know that her voice should be welcome everywhere and that she should always, always feel free to stand up for what she needs and deserves. Great question, Holly. Thanks for asking it. Amen. Amen. Amen. I love what you just said. And I think that that's a great way to close the show. So for everybody who listened in today, this was a live recording for Young and Profiting podcasts, we're a number one education podcast

across all apps. And we have great conversations like this, each and every Tuesday night at 8 p.m. Make sure you guys give Alex and Chris a follow here on Clubhouse and on Instagram. Grab their books, never split the difference, ask for more. They both have courses, really great resources, free paid, whatever you're looking for, they've got it. So make sure you follow them on all channels and get their content.

It's really, really valuable stuff. Alex and Chris, before we go, what are your last and final words in terms of negotiation? Any takeaways that we didn't talk about today that will help us make sure that we rock and win our next negotiation? Let's go to Chris, then Alex and we'll close the room. Guys, just give yourself a chance to get better at this. Be patient. I like what Alex said. Learn a process as long as it's an ongoing and learning thing. You know, be prepared to it, then not everything's going to work out. Either when are you learned and whoever you are, stand up for yourself.

Very much the way Alex was talking about it, ask for more. Just do it nicely. You'd be surprised how much more you get as long as you're taking a nice approach to it. I wanted to say, first of all, how much I have enjoyed this conversation tonight, genuinely so, how much I have learned from it. And I wanted to say, Chris, I'd never known before that you started your career on a suicide hotline.

And I wanna say that anybody who starts their career by serving other people in a vulnerable moment is somebody that I like to know. And so I'm glad now to know you. It also brings me to my lesson about negotiation, which is about service. I firmly believe that you can serve people and also serve yourself. That I can be a straight up, candid, generous human being who's out there helping people do well. And in the process, I'm going to do exceptionally well myself. Life is a relationship sport. Success is often a relationship sport and I want to close by saying how fortunate I feel

That I get to make my living and be successful By helping other people make theirs and helping other people be successful And I know Chris you're doing this work too. It is an incredible privilege. I get an incredible high From getting an email from someone knowing that they went out and they just soared incredibly high. And that really is what negotiation it's all about. We're all on our own race. We're all steering our kayaks toward whatever beach we're headed for. And I really believe that we can all get there together. So thanks again. This has been

awesome. I agree. It's been so awesome. So thanks again, this has been awesome. I agree. It's been so awesome. And honestly guys, I got through like six of my 30 questions. So I'm going to need to get you guys back here together because I think that you guys have so much value to

share with my audience and clubhouse in general. So such a great conversation. Thank you guys so much for tuning into this live episode of Young and Profiting Podcasts with Alex Carter and Chris Boss. Thank you everybody for your time. Everybody on stage. Everybody who tuned in. We appreciate you. And thank you guys so much for your time with that said, this is Hala, Alex, Chris

Sohabe, and everybody here on stage signing off. Have a great night everybody. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much, everyone.

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