You're Dead to Me - Captain Cook's First Voyage

Episode Date: July 8, 2022

Greg Jenner is joined in the 18th century by historian Dr Katherine Parker and comedian James Nokise on the maiden voyage across the Pacific ocean with Captain Cook. He discovers why Tahititi is always a good idea, just how many men you can fit on a ship built for only fifteen and how the exceptional art of Polynesian navigation techniques led to the creation of the first maps of the area.Research by Claudia Treacher and Rosanna Evans Written and produced by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Assistant Producer: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow Project Management: Siefe Miyo and Isla Matthews Audio Producer: Abi PatersonThe Athletic production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and the ex-chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. And today we are off on an exploratory voyage sailing back to the 18th century as we join the famous, perhaps infamous, first voyage of Captain Cook. And joining me in our barely seaworthy podcast vessel are two very special guests.

In History Corner, she's a historian specialising in the cultural history of maps and Pacific exploration in the early modern period. She's a research officer at Barry Lawrence Ruderman Antique Maps and teaches at Queen Mary, University of London. We're delighted to have her aboard the good ship you're dead to me. It's Dr Catherine Parker. Welcome, Katie. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, he's a multi-award winning comedian, theatre maker and playwright. As well as having his fantastic stand-up shows, he hosts the podcast Eating Fried Chicken in the Shower,

in which he discusses mental health and happiness with his guests, literally in the shower. And you may have heard him on Alice Fraser's podcast The Gargle or The Bugle Podcast. We're delighted it's here. It's James Norkise. Welcome, James. Thank you. Lovely to be representing the Pacific again. All of it. It's a very big job, but I'm sure you can handle it. James, how do you feel about history? Is it a subject you enjoyed at school? Is it something you have a family attachment to? Well, my dad has a PhD in it. I think maybe I rebelled a little by just not really diving too deep. And James, you're a man of beautiful heritage, really Welsh, Samoan,

and you grew up in New Zealand. So does that mean you know plenty about Captain Cook and the first voyage? It means I have disappointed rugby coach after rugby coach after rugby coach. coach yes okay fair enough but in terms of cook is it a name that resonates for you um it is i i used to go to discovery primary school and then i left there and went to adventure primary school and they were off james cook drive So, what do you know? We begin the show, as ever, with the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what our lovely listener knows about our subjects. And if, like James, you're in the Southern Hemisphere, I think you know quite a lot, really. We've just had the big anniversary during which the Australian government coughed up $48 million on their commemorative efforts only for coronavirus to ruin absolutely everything.

Cook is a sort of poster boy for European violent colonialism, and there are a lot of people who are pretty keen for that to be cancelled. His statues were pulled down or vandalised. He is as controversial down under as Columbus is in the States. But in the UK, I think Captain Cook is probably less problematic. He's more renowned as an explorer, cartographer, sufferer of a pretty wild death in Hawaii. We know he went to Australia, then he gets a bit hazy. And there aren't many movies about him, but he does have a pop culture legacy because he was the inspiration for Captain James Kirk, James T. Kirk, in Star Trek, whose mantra to boldly go where no man has gone before is based on something Cook wrote in his diary. But why is Cook's first voyage so notable? And why is it so infamous? And does he deserve to hog the limelight? James, the year is 1768. A young George III is on the British throne. The Seven Years' War has gone

pretty well for the British. And the British are now a leading global power. So the Royal Navy is planning to send a ship. Do you know what the ship is? Oh no, I should know the ship. I'm going to just roll the dice and go, discovery? Not discovery. It's Endeavour. People often call it HMS Endeavor. It's not HMS, actually. It's technically HM Bark Endeavor. So it barked like a dog. Yep. Barked like a dog. It's a type of ship, right, Katie? It's a very small ship. It is. It's a very small ship. 100% correct. And it's going to go on a very important mission. Do you know where it's going and why?

It's going to the Pacific. Would you like me to be more specific? Yes, please. Okay, so I know this in a really roundabout way. It's going to Australia because everyone's trying to find Australia. And that's how all the Europeans ended up missing Australia and colonising the Pacific. Katie is nodding, but that's not actually the plan. Katie, the plan, the thing they're meant

to be doing is a joint operation between the Royal Navy, who are putting up the cash, and the Royal Society, which is the most illustrious scientific body in the UK, James. This is where all the nerds hang out, and they want to go to Tahiti. Why Tahiti? They need to observe the transit of Venus, which is when Venus passes between the sun and the earth. And it was important to observe this predictable but very rare astronomical phenomenon, because in observing the time it took Venus to pass across the sun's disk, natural philosophers, which is what we call scientists at this time, they can then estimate the size of the solar system, which in turn has

benefits for navigation, for finding longitude, and for a whole bunch of things. So latitude is your north-south, and then longitude is going to be your location east or west of a designated meridian. So due to the limits of geographic knowledge at the time, though, like James was saying, the Royal Society suggested just finding any old island in a very large swath of the Pacific. They didn't quite know where to go. Thankfully, another British navigator, Samuel Wallace, he comes back right before Cook goes and says, no sweat, guys, I ran into an island. It's called Tahiti. It's kind of awesome. And so that is going to be our first European contact with the people in Tahiti is with Wallace. So some of Wallace's crew from HMS Dolphin are going to switch over into the Endeavor now, including actually their goat, who is then going to be given his own Latin motto by Samuel Johnson.

Oh, like an actual goat. Actual goat. Same goat. Went around the world twice. I thought you meant like the greatest sailor of all time. Sorry. No, it's an actual goat. The goat is a goat.

Yes. I mean, I love the fact that there's 18th century goats who are sort of schooled in Latin and better traveled than most people. James, we have another James in the story. We have James Cook. Who is he? What rank is he?

Do you know? When he starts the voyage? Yeah. I mean, his captain seems... Safe guess. So you're going Captain James Cook, yeah? Yeah. Safe bet.

I feel like I've got it wrong. I'm afraid you have tumbled into our trap. Yes. Weirdly, he's Captain Cook to everyone in history, but he's not a captain. He's only just been made lieutenant. Before that, he was a master during the Seven Years War. He's not this sort of great superstar. He's this sort of Yorkshire lad done quite well. But he's not even first choice for this mission, Katie. He's kind of compromise candidate. The Royal Society is going to name a candidate and it's a geographer named Alexander Dalrymple.

The Royal Society is going to name a candidate, and it's a geographer named Alexander Dalrymple. Excellent name. But Dalrymple is quite stubborn, and he says that he will only go on this voyage if he can command the ship. The Royal Navy is not keen on letting civilians command their vessels, and so they settle on Cook instead. Cook's in his late 30s, and he's quite a safe pair of hands for something like observing the transit. Even if he is relatively low ranking, he's only a lieutenant, and he won't be promoted to post captain, so he won't become our Captain Cook until just before his third voyage. Wow. James, we've got a not Captain Cook aboard the ship, and we also have another chap who's going to be a big role in this story. Have you ever heard of Sir Joseph Banks?

Joseph Banks? Yes. I think we've got a peninsula in New Zealand named after him. And I discovered that 10 seconds ago. Quick Google out the window, was it? No, no. I've been to Banks Peninsula on holiday. And then you said Joseph Banks. I was like, oh, I reckon it's probably named after that dude Banks. Oh, I see. I see. It is named after him.

It's actually one of the only mistakes that Cook makes in his chart of New Zealand. He shows that as an island and it's actually a peninsula. Oh, there we go. So Joseph Banks is an interesting figure. He is your classic rich bro. Daddy's given him loads of money. He's going to spend it all on scientific naturalism. Age 25, he's already been to Canada.

He's a fellow of the Royal Society, this big scientific body. And he basically talks his way onto the ship. The Navy are like, no way. And he's like, here is a massive, massive chunk of money I will pay to go on this ship. I will pay £10,000, which is a crazy amount of money at the time. And it means that he gets to bring himself, all of his luggage, plus an entourage. The Cook voyage will therefore become the most expensive scientific project in history up to this point. Yeah, it's definitely a contender for that title at this time, for sure.

Basically a huge gap year. I'm still stunned that New Zealand's never done a movie about banks. And this sounds like a Taika Waititi film. Oh, totally. You get a rich dude and his bros come on board and discover the Pacific. Surely there's a Netflix series in that, surely. Or BBC, a BBC series. Thank you. Thank you for maintaining the Pacific. Surely there's a Netflix series in there, surely. Or BBC, a BBC series. Thank you. Thank you for maintaining the brand. He's bringing aboard two Swedish naturalists.

That means scientists, not naked people. He's got two artists. He's got four servants. He's got two greyhounds, specimen jars, watercolour easels, sketchpads. It's like a whole gang of people. Bear in mind, HMB Endeavour is a very, very small ship. It is 32 metres long. It is designed for 15 crew. It normally carries coal. Cook is going to cram 94 men aboard, plus two dogs. And at least one goat and they need 18 months of food and water and they need three tons of sauerkraut to help fight scurvy james so pretty cozy the sauerkraut fights scurvy not well but they were they were trying a few things at this time where do the swedes come into this one That's why I'm still trying to, the Swedes

are the real stuff. They're Swedes. So the Swedes are a guy named Carl Linnaeus, who comes up with our idea of taxonomy of genus and species. He is a great networker, actually very similar to Joseph Banks. And so on a lot of these expeditions, you're going to have a naturalist who is one of his, he called them his disciples. So there's just Swedish naturalists all over the place with these voyages. Because in my mind, they're like, oh, you're going to Tahiti? Yeah, we'll come too. It's great. Yeah, exactly. They leave Plymouth in Southern England in August 1768, and off they sail to Tahiti. How far do you think they're sailing, and how long is that journey?

Oh, man. It's a long flight, so you've got to go down. And I'm guessing you go down and under boats 1,700, six months? Close. That's a decent guess. You're wrong because it's longer longer longer with the goat and the dogs and the 94 and the sauerkraut that does it just delays and delays because the goat no so it actually it takes them nearly nine months because they have to stop off in madera for some wine as you do uh and then in Rio de Janeiro and then in Tierra del Fuego.

So they get to Tahiti in April of 1769, having sailed well over 10,000 miles at this point. Wow. Okay. So nine months at sea, and they finally arrive in Tahiti. They build a heavily defended fort. It's called Point Venus because they're very original. And now they wait. They've got to wait four months for the transit of Venus to arrive over their heads. And this gives Joseph Banks time to learn Tahitian. He's going to study the local customs. He's going to meet the local ladies. I'll bet he is.

He's going to meet them and then some. Have you seen Tahitian people, Greg? Even as a fellow Pacific Islander, these are some of the most beautiful people you will ever encounter. Like, annoyingly beautiful people you will ever encounter in your life. So they're on Tahiti waiting for this astronomical event to happen. And then one day a man walks up to them and says, hello. And his name is Tupaya. And his name is Tupaya, and he has already met British explorers because he's met the Wallace expedition that came the year before.

You remember HMS Dolphin that crashed into Tahiti and went, hey, this place is great. So he's already met them. James, have you ever heard of Tupaya? Yeah, I have. But as a Pacific navigator, these days when we speak Cook in New Zealand, we speak of him. But it's only recently I should point out, I haven't heard the name growing up. But yeah, I didn't realize that he met the other guys beforehand and learned English and was like, hey, what's up? Can we hear a bit more about his background, Katie? How has he ended up on Tahiti? Because he's not a Tahitian.

No, he's not. He's from Raiatea, which is an island very near to Tahiti. So originally, he is going to be born into a very high ranking family and was trained in religion, ceremony, politics, history, genealogy, astronomy and navigation. So he is a highly, highly educated man. And he's a member of what's called the Arioi, which is a kind of priesthood. And they are dedicated to the war god Oral. And so around 1760, though, warriors from Bora Bora, which is near Raiatea, they are going to attack Raiatea. Tupai is going to get speared through the chest. He's going to lose his Raiatean titles and estates. And he then escapes to Tahiti, where he is attached to a powerful female leader there named Perea, who was also his lover at the time. And so by

the time that Cook arrives, there's actually just been a bloody civil war in Tahiti, and Perea has now lost her favour and her influence. A spear through the chest and survives. That's not a minor scratch, is it? No, he's kind of a badass, is Tupaya. Wow, what a backstory. And Banks is also very impressed with him. So in July 1769, he writes of Tupaya, he is certainly a most proper man, well-born, chief to how, as he calls him, or priest of this island, consequently skilled in mysteries of their religion. But what makes him more than anything else desirable is his experience in the navigation of these people and knowledge of the islands in these seas. He has told us the names of above 70,

most of which he has himself been at. So it's high praise, but also it suggests that Tupai speaks good enough English to be able to chat to Banks. But they're not just professionally entangled, James. Joseph Banks is having a lot of sexual encounters with Tahitian women. And some scholars have suggested perhaps he was having a thing with Perea. That's debated. He's definitely having an affair with one of her entourage called Tia Tia. And then in one particular incident, Banks is taking a topless nap in a canoe, in Perea's canoe, and some men steal his clothes, including a very fancy jacket with little frogs on it. And that actually gets us into a quite interesting conversation, Katie, about cultural life on the island, on Tahiti. There's definitely some canoe action

and canoodling action happening between the British and the Tahitian women, isn't there? Definitely. So British sailors and Tahitian women did have sexual encounters and relationships, which very unfortunately spreads venereal diseases to the Tahitian population very quickly. So some of these encounters were in return for goods. In particular, iron was highly valued by the Tahitians. They'd already encountered it with shipwrecks previously, so they knew that had high value and was very useful. In fact, Cook actually has to highly regulate this trade because Samuel Wallace, when he was there, he found that the dolphin, the ship's integrity was at stake due to his men taking nails from it to try and trade for sexual favors. So to make sure that the endeavor stayed, you know, seaworthy, he had to watch his men quite

closely. So these relationships could also involve attempts by Tahitians to forge political alliances and friendships. Sailors were also very eager to observe and sometimes join in, in all sorts of other Tahitian activities and traditions. They do observe surfing, which is probably some of the first times Europeans have seen surfing happening. They participate in archery competitions, in dances, in singing, and then perhaps most famously in tattooing. And that is how the word enters the English language from the Tahitian word tatau. Wow. I didn't know about the surfing.

Yeah. It's the surfing school. Yeah. James, what do you make of that? Look, if your boat sinks because you ran out of nails from trading it for sex which spreads venereal disease that's just kind of justice yeah it tells you quite a lot about the how horny these men are that they're willing to risk sinking in the middle of the pacific ocean look greg put the look and i'm not here to defend these ridiculous sailors in any way, shape or form. But man, put yourself in their position.

They're from England. And now they're surfing and getting tattoos in Tahiti. Like, they weren't ready. They weren't mentally prepared for that, man. It's true. And people deserting at Tahiti will henceforth be a problem for a lot of voyages. Because Tahiti's awesome. So why wouldn't you want to get off the ship and stay there will henceforth be a problem for a lot of voyages. Because Tahiti is awesome. So why wouldn't you want to get off the ship and stay there?

It's still a problem. It is still a problem. So we have this sort of little anecdote where Joseph Banks' clothes are stolen. And at the same time, Captain Cook, who's not a captain, his clothes are also stolen on the same night. Is this a sort of classic prank? Is this a sort of classic prank? Is this a misunderstanding? Or are the Tahitians genuinely pissed off with the British and this is their active resistance? What's going on, Katie? Sure. Tupaya likely spoke a little bit of English.

Joseph Banks speaks a little bit of Tahitian, so they're kind of Tahitian-ishing it together. And that's how things are getting passed on. So you can imagine there's actually a lot of misunderstanding going on as well here. So Tahitians have a very important system of gifting and hospitality, as most Pacific Island cultures do. And they are often left feeling that Europeans did not respect their lands, their plantations, their food, their culture, their bodies, etc. Europeans, for their part, could not understand why Tahitians are so brazenly stealing things all the time, so they're really flummoxed. Again, Tahitians have a very different relationship with property and with ownership, and they also actually esteem at this time a god of theft named Hiro, and it was considered okay if you got away with theft, but not so okay if you

got caught because that meant you weren't very good at it. And so there's just different understandings of property and objects and how things are supposed to be shared. And actually Perea is likely the one who orchestrated the taking of the clothes in the first place. Possibly for use in a ceremony later so that she can make sure that she has the mana or the power of her new friends is going to go towards the political ends that she wants to see happening. See, Pacific women, mate, undefeated. James Cook is desperately trying to do a science mission. And his astronomer aboard the ship is called Charles Green. And they're trying to see the transit of Venus.

And it's not going great. So they brought all the scientific equipment halfway around the world. The weather is actually lovely on the day of the transit. They have three observation points set up. But as they're observing, it very quickly becomes apparent that the results are not going to work out because of a phenomenon called the black drop effect, which sounds really sinister.

But it's basically the optical illusion. If you think of a sunset, and you see kind of the sun just kiss the horizon, and all of a sudden, it looks like the horizon reaches up to the sun, that's the black drop effect. So this fuzzy kind of effect messes up the precision timing, and Cook's observations are going to vary by over 40 seconds from Green's and the other observers. And so it's going to be a very imprecise kind of indistinct outcome to this entire endeavor. Oh, a lovely endeavor pun. Thank you very much. You're welcome.

James, how do you think they explain this failure when they get back to England? I was in Tahiti having sex and surfing and check out my new tattoo, bro. They were just like, oh, the wind changed. A coconut dropped on an instrument. Entirely likely. I mean, the astronomer gets blamed, Katie. Charles Green, he carries the can,

which is fairly easy for him because he's dead. Yes, quite unfairly, he gets blamed. And then Cook will defend his honour later. But yeah, since he's not there to defend himself, it's quite an unfortunate end for Charles Green. What do you think Captain Cook is going to do next? And I say Captain Cook, of course, he's not a captain. It's Lieutenant Cook. What do you think not a Captain Cook is going to do next?

He's going to like, oh, we should find another island with even prettier women and the sun. I feel like his plan is not to go back to Yorkshire. That's his overall plan. It's just don't go back to Yorkshire. It's the meta goal. Yeah, it's not Yorkshire. He's got a secret envelope. And I think you've already mentioned this, James, on the introduction, but it is an instruction from the Royal Navy to go and find the hypothetical continent of Terra Australis, the great southern land. Everyone thinks it must exist. And the instruction says, go and do it with the consent of the natives to take possession of convenient

situations in the country in the name of the King of Great Britain. It's quite the taskmaster challenge, isn't it? The funniest thing about all this is Australia is so much huger than, I think I'm right about this, Katie, than we see on the map. The map doesn't do justice. Australia is so big. It is. You can fall asleep flying over it, wake up, and you're still flying over it. sleep, flying over it, wake up, and you're still flying over it. There is a theory that basically there needs to be as much landmass in the south as there is in the north, or else the world will kind of flop over. So there's a counterbalance theory. And so they have this idea that there has to be this truly huge southern continent. Cook opens his envelope, which does say secret on it and he sails south

from tahiti and he's told if you don't fall in with this large continent before you get to 40 degrees southern latitude then you're supposed to turn west and then go to a taro new zealand because they do know new zealand is there they just don't know how big it is so luckily though tupaya has elected to come along with them. And he brings with him a servant named Tayato. And so Tupaya gives Cook routes to a lot of the islands, they don't find the southern continent. And so Cook instead decides, let's just go see the extent of New Zealand. And so only with Tupaya's help, are they able to get there as directly as they do and encounter and chart as many islands as they do.

So here's where Tupai, as being a wonderful navigator, like you said, is going to come into the story. What do you know of Tupai as a navigator, James? We actually almost lost the Pacific navigation that he uses. And there's been a real movement the last 30 years or so to regather that knowledge. So he's sort of quite legendary and that he he's like the old master if you wanted to take western film language like the mythical sensei of pacific navigation you know he's and he knew the people and he knew the islands but and it sounds like a lot of knowledge but my pacific academic friends are like oh my god this dude is absolutely screwing

us up my source of this basically is the film Moana because my toddler loves that movie. So all of these techniques, however, like James said, were nearly lost. And it's going to be revived really in the past 50 years by something called the Polynesian Voyaging Society, which is an absolutely amazing organization, which found one of the last master navigators. absolutely amazing organization, which found one of the last master navigators. He's from Micronesia, brought him to Hawaii, and then has now trained several successive generations of navigators. And they continue to do that today. They're going to leave on a circum-Pacific voyage next year. And they've already sailed around the world about 10 years ago. That's amazing.

It's absolutely amazing. Polynesian navigation techniques at this time, they're different to how European sailors will navigate, right? So do you want to talk us through some of their techniques? Sure. Polynesians are hands down the best sailors in the world. So the navigation techniques involve really intensive and continuous observation of and interaction with the marine environment. And they're not dependent on instrumentation like Western sailing methods. So you need to learn sea paths between the islands. Navigators can find bearing using a star compass at night, and then the sun during the day. And this can be recorded with markings on the canoe railing. You can orient the canoe using swells, which are patterns in the

waves that are coming at the ship and these generally move in a straight line and you can also take advantage of wind patterns that vary seasonally and cook is very interested in these because tupaya tells these stories of these voyages he's been on that includes sailing um both east and west and at this point the europeans had really struggled to sail um east across the pacific and so cook was like how did you do that and jubai is like well between november and like january there's a whole different wind and so cook is learning just a lot at this point although of course in moana you also have to high five the sea that's also very important and sing songs with the rock i mean we all want to sing songs with the rock that's that's

not even a pacific thing that's just a general thing. But do you know the wonderful thing about Moana? It got a bit of flack, but it also got a lot of love because it's a really great introductory to concepts in the Pacific. And one of them is actually that there's a spiritual connection between Pacific people and the sea. I can only really speak for my Pacific people, which are the Samoans. My sister's name is actually Moana. So she's been having a great time the last few years. So when there's something like a tsunami, that's an extra layer of trauma, but the sea was always seen as a provider and something that we traveled on. And right up to kind of European encounters, I think, was something we freely

kind of went out and explored along. Yes, freely and intentionally, these voyages were done. They're linked very specifically to ancestor gods, and they're done in the name of and with the help of these ancestors and these gods. The larger cosmology is an important part of understanding how to actually sail the ships as well. You can't separate the two. so tupaya is coming aboard endeavor and trying to explain this incredible knowledge and the europeans are going like do me a map and so tupaya does them a map and we can show you that map james whoa do you want to describe for us what you can see well it's it's a map of many islands, very detailed. I can't quite see what's in the middle, but it's Tapaya. So I imagine it's Tahiti. It's Raiate, but yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's the other thing about Pacific people is our country is the middle of the Pacific. It doesn't matter whether you're Samoan, Tongan, Cook Island. Yeah, that's really something. Tupaya's actually never really seen charts before he meets the Europeans. So obviously Tupaya is a genius. And he watched Cook and his officers make charts on the ship in the European tradition. So Tupaya discusses the names. He has this all in his memory. He discusses the names and locations of over 130 islands with banks. And so then he draws them a map. And then we don't actually have his original sketch map anymore. We have this, which is Cook's copy of that original, which has 74 islands on it,

I think. And it is a fascinating object because it looks map-y to our Western eyes, but it actually includes a lot of the cosmology we were just talking about. So scholars still actually don't quite know how to read this map entirely because it is such a syncretic object mixing together his Tahitian and Raiatean and Polynesian knowledge with Western ways of visualising. Cook now is going to sail to New Zealand. It's been spotted by Europeans quite a long time before, in 1642 by Abel Tasman. Unfortunately, when Endeavour rocks up on New Zealand's shoreline, there is a lot more tension.

Do you know this story, James? I think he was really important with first contact with our indigenous people, the Maori. He gave Cook street cred. They were like, oh, this dude's got, he's not one of us, but he's definitely one of, maybe one of us. Unfortunately, it starts with violence and up to seven Maori are killed. The next day Cook and his crew meet the Maori on the beach. It's the first ever witnessing by Europeans of the famous Taka ceremonial dance or performance, which is now known to rugby fans, for the All Blacks, of course.

But again, things turn violent. But Tupaiya manages to save the day. It turns out he can speak Maori, or at least Tahitian, which is part of the same language family. And he manages to calm things down. And so Cook takes his leave and they decide to sail around New Zealand to chart its shorelines. Katie, is that because he's looking again for the southern land? By this time, Cook is actually quite convinced that the continent does not exist in this area, at least. But he has been tasked with charting of New Zealand.

He's going to chart it very, very carefully and also proves it is indeed relatively small um and not the great southern continent and tupaya he's the navigator he's the he's the communicator what kind of gig has he got himself this time yeah so tupaya is invaluable here from navigation to charting to mediating with the maori uh and he participates in arts and traditions and does many of the things he did as high priest in Tahiti. That kind of prestige transfers over into Maori culture quite well. Meanwhile, Banks and his naturalists are just continuing to collect specimens, as they do, which quite amuses the Maori. Banks has this sublime romantic view of this rock arch that he says is just the most beautiful thing in nature he's ever seen. But the Maori actually call that the anus of the world. So they thought that was

quite funny. The Maori actually also call him goblin for doing things like collecting grass from cliffs and for knocking at stones on beaches. So this is just very classic Banks behavior and the Maori are just kind of confused by whatever he's doing. Okay. So laughing at the British man, gawping at the anus of the world. That's great. Yeah. And so Tupaya, already we've heard navigator, diplomat, priest, stepping in to deescalate conflict. He's also an artist, James, and he's doing watercolors. What do you make of this? Better than my stuff. That's amazing though. Yeah. What can you see?

Well, there's a brown man. He's got a cloak. It looks like it could be a feather cloak from the top. I'm guessing maybe he's Maori. Exactly. yeah. And then there's a crayfish or maybe a lobster in the middle. And then there's a white man, and I think he's wearing gloves or it's his skin. He's very white, but he's got – He's just white, yeah. He's from Yorkshire.

He's got a black jacket and hat, and he's got shoes on and pants. The Maori brother is barefoot, and I think it looks like he's giving the crayfish to the white man, which is a scene played out in small town New Zealand to this day. So this is Banks. Banks writes about this in his journal. It's Banks exchanging for a lobster from a Maori man. And then Tupaya has painted it. And it's beautiful, isn't it? Because it's Tupaya trying to draw like a European, but also drawing with his own style. So he's learning here the styles employed in European maps and art. He's learned to paint from Sporing and from Sidney Parkinson, who's one of the artists left on this voyage. There was another one, but he died in Tierra del Fuego. And so the paintings actually also play

into some of his own skills from the priesthood he was part of. So he would have been familiar with bark cloth painting and with Tahitian tattooing, which includes naturalistic images of peoples and plants. So again, we're seeing a really kind of neat syncretic object being created just because Tupai is so good at so many things. I think I see why the Māori are so interested in Tupai. The Pacific, like for the voyages in between each other, Aotearoa is actually quite isolated from everywhere else. And Māori had been here for hundreds of years before Cook arrived. So Tobias is kind of like the first contact with the rest of the Pacific. Yes, for a very long time. And he's got white guys with him, Swede and English.

And he's kind of figured out some of their very non-Polynesian, non-Pacific ways. So, you know, it's not like just that he's important because he's the only, you know, representation matters and he's the only brown guy on the crew. He's like lost family. And I am speaking out of turn here because I'm not tangata whenua. I'm not Maori in New Zealand, but he's much more interesting and important for their knowledge than necessarily Cook and the alien world that he represents. Absolutely. And the Maori do recognize him as kinfolk for sure. So when Cook returned to New Zealand on a later voyage, people keep asking him, where's Tupai? Where is Tupai? So the Maori have been in Aotearoa New Zealand at this point for around 500 years at least. But the voyaging tradition that brings them there, they don't continue the very long distance voyaging much after they settle in Aotearoa. So they are cut off from the rest of Polynesia. They're one part of the Polynesian Triangle. So this, I think, would have been a very emotional homecoming for people, particularly

because from Tupai is from Rai Atea, which is considered Hawaii, which is considered also kind of the heart of Polynesia and where traditionally the voyagers were supposed to come from and then people, the rest of Polynesia within the larger folklore. So this would have been really someone coming from the metaphorical homeland to come and connect with the Maori. Okay, so we're back to sailing because they've circumnavigated New Zealand and had these fascinating interactions with the Maori. And then they're off again in March 1770. So they've already been at sea or traveling for two years. And they're off now to Australia. The Endeavour makes landfall at a place that Joseph Banks quickly calls Botany Bay. And this time, Tupaya can't save the day. He can't communicate with the Aboriginal Australians

they encounter. So again, there is violence. Again, the British use their weaponry. They injure an indigenous Aboriginal man with a musket shot. And Katie, I think this is the point where we have to talk about the legacy and the reputation of Cook, why he's so problematic. And it's the later voyages that particularly do that for his reputation. But the first voyage is not without violence, is it? No, not at all. So these initial encounters are fraught and misunderstandings and misinterpretations of the haka, for example, or of the perceived threats. Those often lead to violence. So Cook's men use their guns to scare, to injure, and to kill when they feel threatened. So whereas they often regretted that violence, afterwards they are in no way shying away from it. When they feel wronged, Cook and his men will take islanders hostage and will fire into crowds. People were hurt and killed in many of the islands that Cook visited and that many Europeans visited, including Maori and Aboriginal Australians. And we need to be honest and very open about violence when talking about Pacific exploration. Exploration is an imperial act, and we need to link it to the ongoing

inequalities and injustices in the Pacific today. Yeah. As we say in New Zealand, chur. No need for a punchline on that. That is straight up facts, Katie, straight up. And I'm glad you're the one saying it because it hits different to the audience when you say it and not me. Happy to do so. I wanted to ask James in terms of what Cook means to people in New Zealand or some more. Violence is part of it, right? It is. But also it's trauma. It's intergenerational trauma.

Possibly our most famous comedian in New Zealand history is a Maori guy called Billy T. James. comedian in New Zealand history as a Maori guy called Billy T. James. And in the 1980s, he did a series of sketches with a, I was going to say Pākehā, that's the Maori word for other. Pālangi is the Samoan word for Caucasian. It means white devil, but we're very polite when we translate. And Billy T. James did these sketches with Peter Rowley, this white comedian in New Zealand. Rowley played Captain Cook, and Billy T played a Maori chief with his bros meeting on the beach. They were just real farce. They talked about the nuclear ban. They wouldn't let Captain Cook in because he didn't have MasterCard or visa. Real farcical. But it was actually the first time, and this is the 1980s, that New Zealand had comedically addressed this kind of

stuff. And also, the comedy allowed them to go in. It's kind of what your show does, Greg. Comedy allows them to go in and see this quite traumatic and things that make people tighten up. If Katie was talking about Captain Cook that way in New Zealand, there'd be some people going, oh, no, that's a bit, oh, I don't know about that. You know, and it just tightens people up. But it's there. Look, I live in Wellington when I'm in New Zealand, and we're on Cook Strait, which is across from the top of South Island, which is Tasman.

The names are all here. So there's the violence of the gun, and there's the violence of language and imperialism. And we're still in the process of making fun and reckoning with all of that over here. So it's not as two-dimensional as white people show up and conquer everyone, and then searching for that three-dimensional answer over here

and in Australia and throughout the Pacific, we need to learn all of the facts about what their intentions were and what their secret missions were and how many people the botanist was having sex with. This is a whole bunch of people through the Pacific that look like Joseph Banks, who've never met. Yeah. I don't know if there are descendants of Banks. That's an interesting thought. It hadn't even occurred to me. Now you're framed. The lawsuits will tell you.

I'm really grateful for that, James. That's a really fascinating insight. The next big thing is Cook meets the Great Barrier Reef. When I say meet, I mean sails smash into it and wreck their hull, and it's weeks of repairs. But again, Joseph Banks sees this as an opportunity. Out he leaps to go and do some more nerd squad stuff, and they encounter a

kangaroo banks solander and sporing so the swedes uh they made a major collection of australian flora while they're there because at this point literally everything they're seeing is new to their eyes um so they get um almost 800 specimens are going to be illustrated by sydney parkinson who's the artist and banks also observes this kangaroo, which is the English name coming directly from Banks mishearing a Gugu Yimithir name, which is Ganguru, which is a species of kangaroo. Unfortunately, one of the days after they see it is that one of the guys out hunting shoots it. And so then they eat it. They say it tastes pretty good, actually. It's like hare, so like rabbit, but even tastier than that, they say. And then they have this kangaroo skin

that they're going to bring back with them. James, you're sort of shaking your head. I'm just, have you been to Australia, Greg? I've not. I've not yet been. I'd love to. Everything outside in Eastern Australia kills you. And it's just amazing to me that this rich English dude and his two Swedish mates are just poncing about, picking out flowers. Ooh, what's that little spider? Bit of a red back? We'll paint that.

It's just amazing to me that they're alive and they make it to the great barrier reef joseph banks makes it home alive so he is a very lucky guy i guess the hull of their ship has been cracked by the great barrier reef but they're cramming the inside of the ship with as many specimens as they can find you know 94 men a goat two dogs and now also all the botany all the specimens the kangaroo skin plus all that sauerkraut which no one is enjoying eating by the way and actually just very quickly we can show you a painting done slightly later on back in england by an artist called george stubbs of the kangaroo

unfortunately they didn't have the kangaroo they had had the skin, which they inflated. And so it sort of ended up looking adorable. James, how would you describe this kangaroo image? It looks like someone who's never seen a kangaroo, but has a kangaroo skin, but once saw, I want to say, a squirrel that looked like a kangaroo. So they've gone bottom half kangaroo, top half grey squirrel. I think that's fair. It's sort of mousy, isn't it? I mean, it's very cute. Very nice little bunny ears.

This little kangaroo looks like it's about to have sex with Joseph Banks. I'm going to be honest with you. And Joseph Banks is probably fine with that, to be in the name of science he's willing so uh cook managed to repair the hmb endeavor and off they sail again back to england and this is where tragedy strikes katie because the journey home hasn't in theory been as dangerous as all the things they've been doing. And yet, actually, this is where, sadly, we lose the astronomer, Charles Green, but we also lose Tipaya. What happens? When they get to Batavia, which is now Jakarta, they pull in there to resupply, to rest and things. And actually various diseases, particularly dysentery and possibly malaria, are going to strike the crew. And actually one-third of the crew is going to die at Batavia so it's uh Tupaya is going to die

Tayato his servant is going to die Charles Green Sidney Parkinson so we do lose a lot of people at this point it's an absolutely devastating loss yeah it's incredibly sad and Tupaya is probably only about 45 years old he's been so fundamental to this voyage. And without him, it would have been almost impossible to have pulled off this mission. What happened to his body? Can I just ask that? Do you know?

So with Tupaya's death, his descendants now are trying to repatriate the body, and there is active attempts to try and locate precisely where he was buried in Tayato. Cook actually said that he wanted to see the ocean before he died because he knew he was going to die away from Raiatea. And he's now buried today on the island that's called Edam, which is now Damar Basar. So hopefully maybe his descendants can find and bring him all the way back to Raiatea. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's the most horrifying part of the story I've heard,

is him dying so far away and on the other end of the ocean. I'm not sure listeners understand the width of the Pacific. You're really, really far away. So that's really heartwarming to hear that his descendants or the people who represent them are looking for him and bring him home. Spiritually, as much as psychologically for the people, that becomes quite important too. Thank you.

Tupai's death is obviously a personal tragedy. This is incredibly sad. But also it's going to change how the mission is understood when they get back to Britain. What is the response when Cook and Banks make it home, a third of their crew are dead, the transit of Venus has failed, they didn't find the Great Southern Land. What do people make of their return? Yeah, it doesn't sound like it should be very positive, but it is quite a positive reception

when they get back. So, Tupaya is not going to be totally written out of the story, but he is going to be minimized in the narrative. Cook is not actually made out to be a hero either. It's actually Banks who's going to become the celebrity, probably as a surprise to no one at this point. So he's collected 30,000 botanical samples. He has 110 new genre of species to talk about. He has 1,400 new species. So his wealth and his social networks are really going to ensure that he is kind of center stage here. Of course, the transit of Venus mission has not gone well, but the Admiralty of the Royal Navy is still wanting to champion British imperial sea power.

And so they're actually going to commission Dr. John Hawksworth, who is a literary editor, to write an account of the voyages based on Cook's and Banks's journals that's going to kind of trumpet their success to the world. So there's a book deal, you know, even in the 18th century, people are like, how do we make money from this? Okay, let's, let me get the book world. So there's a book deal. Even in the 18th century, people are like, how do we make money from this? Okay, let's... And we get the book rights are hotly fought over. They are sold to William Strahan and Thomas Cadell, who pay Hawksworth an enormous £6,000. Now, bear in mind, Banks has paid £10,000 to go on his voyage with his Swedes and his goat. But £6,000 is a big, big cash advance for advance for a book yeah the most ever paid to this point it sells in good numbers but there's a big old backlash isn't there it is kind of a bestseller but it's it courts huge controversy so it's condemned by nautical experts and then hawks work is going to be criticized for including

all the sexual content people think it's way too sexy of a book. So one clergyman is going to actually write in his journal, quote, men and women coupling together in the face of the sun and in the sight of scores of people, like how dare they? And another complaint is going to be that actually Hawksworth doesn't credit divine providence sufficiently for saving the vessel from disaster. So there is way too much sex. There is not enough God. The maps aren't very good. So it's kind of this relentless backlash against Hawksworth's account.

And it's going to change the way that voyage accounts get written into the future. Everyone is like Joseph Banks, more like Joseph Bonks. He's having a lot of sex with people and we're not sure how we feel about that. But he's a rich dude and he can get away with it. Yeah, rolls right off his back

and he walks right into being the president of the Royal Society pretty much for the rest of his life. Right, okay. It's a helpful scandal for him. Not a helpful scandal for Hawksworth. He dies of anxiety, basically, Katie. Pretty much. We can't say that for 100% certain, but he and his close friends are writing letters talking about how stressed he is by all of this. So it clearly is having an effect. And then he will die six months after publication. Yeah, James, you did a big shock face there when I said that. I just don't know why you would read all of that information and not just sell everything and try and get to Tahiti. John, there was another way.

John, there was another way. It's this huge scientific exploration. It sets off in 1768. They get back nearly three years later. It's a hugely expensive voyage. It fails in both of its scientific goals. It causes a massive scandal. It kills the resident astronomer, a third of the crew, and the brilliant Polynesian navigator who has saved their life over and over again.

And it even results in the death of the man who writes the book about it. I mean, it's sort of a disaster in some ways. And yet, Hollywood loves a sequel. So almost to the day, within a year, James, Banks and Cook are back on a ship. And they're going to go and do the second voyage in 1772. Except then Banks leaves the ship, we should say. Banks is an absolute hissy fit because they will not add an entire deck

to the ship, which is the resolution now. And so he actually has a fit and leaves and he goes off to Iceland. To Iceland?

Classic posh man behaviour. Yeah, classic Banks. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Much colder, less surfing probably. So he takes his Swedes and goes and looks

at volcanoes. The nuance window! probably. So he takes his Swedes and goes and looks at volcanoes. The Nuance Window! It's time now for the Nuance Window, James. This is where you and I swing silently in our hammocks. Katie is now going to weigh anchor and she's going to sail us towards the bay of contextual complexity to tell us something we need to know for two minutes uninterrupted. So Dr. Katie, my stopwatch is ready and the poop deck is yours. Can we have the nuance window, please? So I would like to discuss what we mean when we called James Cook a good mapmaker. You will often hear Cook described as a very skilled navigator and a mapmaker, almost as a concession. So people will recognize the complexity of the voyages, they'll

talk about the consequences for Pacific peoples, but they'll end it with this conciliatory, oh but he was a good mapmaker, and that's as a kind of way to salvage at least some of his overall reputation. So I would like to complicate that just a bit. Cook certainly was a highly trained and highly skilled nautical surveyor who made enduring maps and charts. His chart of Eitero in New Zealand, for example, was used well into the 19th century. However, making maps is not an objective act. Like all material cultures, humans imbue objects with implicit and explicit political, cultural, and social messages. This can be done consciously, so when a map is made for propaganda reasons, for example, like the maps made to advertise New Zealand to settlers in the 19th century, and then these downplayed or erased

the presence of the Maori people. This can also be done unconsciously, for example, when bringing a chart into standard conventional style means that ethnographic details are lost between drafts. The kinds of maps and charts that Cook made were products that grew out of a European nautical tradition, a tradition that was very different in material culture and practice than other cultures. Cook was a master mapmaker and navigator, but so was Tupaya. And recovering the ways in which their distinctive expertise interacted and overlapped and questioning and contextualizing what we mean by qualitative statements like good is just one fruitful way to approach these voyages and their continuing legacies. Yeah, Katie's right. Cooks, Max, suck. They suck, bro. It's been a really interesting episode. Has it changed anything for you?

I think it has changed in terms of the people around Cook. I think because he was used for propaganda of the Pacific and it was raised up as the great discoverer, he is also the focus of the decolonization. which what I've learned from Katie is that, you know, that's to the detriment of actually taking a deeper look at guys like Banks who are getting all this credit and ahead of the Royal Society for discovering flowers. But I bet if you went to the indigenous people and to their historians and to their elders, they would already have discovered the stuff that was already there and they'd have their own names and uses for it. So, you know, I think what it's taught me is that there are other people

around the cook mythology that has been put forward that people from where I'm from need to take a deeper look at. So thank you. We've got more targets now, Katie. Thank you for that. Happy to provide. So what do you know now but it's time now for our quiz this is the so what do you know now this is a quick fire quiz for James to see how much um you've remembered to see what you learned so we've got 10 questions

for you here we go question. Question one. Do you remember what year did the HMB Endeavour leave England? 1758? 68. You're close. You're very close. It's going to be like high school all over again. Question two. Sir Joseph Banks put in how much of his own money to join the Royal Society's expedition? £10,000. It was £10,000. Question three. What astronomical event had the HMB Endeavour been sent to observe?

Venus. It is the transit of Venus. Question four. Name something that posh naturalist Joseph Banks took along aboard the Endeavour with him. Swedes. It was Swedes. And a goat. It was Swedes. And a goat. It was.

Question five. What did the super secret instructions from the Royal Navy order Captain, not Captain Cook, to do after leaving Tahiti? Oh, find Australia or go to New Zealand. Yeah, exactly that. Question six. Name two methods of Polynesian navigation techniques which have been recently recovered. I have to get this right.

Pressure's on. It's wind currents and constant observation of star charts. Yeah, it's the stars. It's the sun. It's the waves, it's the wind. I think that's fair. That's the only question Pacific Islanders were listening to during this whole one. Question seven. What famous dance did the Europeans witness for the first time

when they arrived in New Zealand? The haka. It was the haka. Question eight. 1772, Joseph Banks commissioned the artist George Stubbs to paint which Australian animal based on the skin which had been inflated? The sexy squirrel kangaroo. The cumheader kangaroo. Question nine.

Who was blamed unfairly for the Endeavour's failure to gather good observational data of the transit of Venus. Do you remember the name of the astronomer? Oh, I want to say Matt Green, but I think that's a comedian. Green is right. It was Charles Green. Half a mark for that. Sorry, Matt. Charles Green, yeah. Yeah, he died on the way home, so he

becomes the scapegoat. Question 10. Which Polynesian navigator with remarkable navigation, linguistic and artistic skills was invaluable aboard the Endeavour? Tupaya. It is. And that's a very strong score.

Eight and a half out of 10. Well done, James. How do you feel about it? It's good. I feel I've honoured my ancestors. Okay. Well, I mean,

we've had a really fascinating episode and listener, if you want more maritime mirth and you can check out our episode on Blackbeard the Pirate. That's a very funny one. And if you want more infamous encounters between Europeans and indigenous peoples, you can listen to our Mayflower episode. Everything is available in our back catalogue on BBC Sounds. And remember, if you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends. Make sure to subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But all that's left for me is to say a huge thank you to our fantastic guests in History Corner. We had the wonderful Dr Catherine Parker from Barry Lawrence Ruderman Antique Maps and the University of London, Queen Mary. Thank you so much. It's been fascinating. Thank you.

And in Comedy Corner, we had the absolutely ace James Norkise. Thanks, James. It's been lovely. Thanks a lot, man. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time for more historical adventures, but probably less romping in canoes. But I'm now off to order three tonnes of sauerkraut for my summer holidays. You can never be too careful with scurvy. Bye! Your Debt to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4. The research was by Claudia Treacher and Rosanna Evans. This episode was written by Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me.

It was produced by Emma Neguse and me. The assistant producer was Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow. The project managers were Saifah Mio and Isla Matthews. And the audio producer was Abbey Patterson. You've been listening to a Radio 4 podcast. Audio producer was Abbey Patterson. I find quantum mechanics confusing today. You've been listening to a Radio 4 podcast. It was probably in our time. But this is a trail for something.

It could have been Gardener's Question Time or The Archers. This is a trail for something else. This is a trail for The Infinite Monkey Cage. And we're back. Also, if you've been listening to any questions or any answers as well, you're also allowed in. The Infinite Monkey Cage. We're back with a new series.

We've got Eric Idle, Tim Minch and Alan Davis. We've got Brendan Hunt. We've got Sarah Pascoe, Katie Brown, Dave Gorman, Chris Hadfield, Nick Holstott, Carolyn Porco, Deva Aman, Hannah Fry, David Spiegelhalter, Uta Frith, Suzanne Simard, Jan Eleven, Netta Engelhardt. So many things. And we're going to cover bats versus flies,

the wood wide web, black holes, deep oceans, earth from space, how to teach maths and how brains communicate. And you can listen on BBC Sounds, but I suppose you know that because you're listening to this on BBC Sounds because it's a podcast trail. That's a good point. We should probably cut that last bit. I bet they don't, though. No, it's a contractual obligation. Turned out nice again.