You're Dead to Me - Emma of Normandy

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined by Professor Elizabeth Tyler and comedian Jen Brister in early medieval England to learn all about Queen Emma of Normandy. Emma was wife to two English kings – Aethelred and Cnut – and mother to two more, Harthacnut and Edward the Confessor. She was a key player in the complex politics of eleventh-century England, and symbolised the overlapping English, Norman and Scandinavian identities at play in England even before the Norman conquest of 1066. This episode traces Emma’s life from her childhood in Normandy, through her marriages to the English Aethelred and Danish Cnut, and into her final years as mother to the king. Along the way, it explores Emma’s political savvy, and the messy family relationships that shaped early medieval English history. Research by: Josh Rice Written by: Josh Rice, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse

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Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are donning our most glamorous glad rags, fixing our fascinators and attending not one but two royal weddings as we travel all the way back to medieval Europe to meet the magnificent Queen Emma of Normandy. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's Professor of Medieval Literature and the Director of the Centre for Medieval Studies at the University of York. She specialises in the literary culture of England from the 9th to the 12th century. And handily for us, she's particularly interested in medieval English queens. It's Professor Elizabeth Tyler. Welcome, Elizabeth.

Hi, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Oh, we're delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the telly shows, including Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen her on tour or read her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother, about the challenges of parenting. I've got the audiobook. It's excellent. Maybe you've heard her podcast, WTB, which I think has a slightly ruder name when fully pronounced, but I won't say what it is. It's Jen Brister. Welcome to the show, Jen.

Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure. I have to do the contractually obligated question with bated breath. Do you like history? I do, actually. I'm intrigued by history. Like when I was young, I was like, oh, what's the point? Why are we learning about things that have happened? And I'm thinking maybe we should go back. Let's delve back and see what we can learn from history.

Yeah. What about medieval history? I know zero. Now, I did study it. I mean, I say study. Do you study when you're at primary school? I did sit in a room while someone talked at me about medieval history. You know, the usual, William the Conqueror and the Battle of Hastings and all of that. But I think it really started and ended there. My knowledge of medieval history is blank, so I'm very intrigued. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And like Jen, when I say emma of normandy i think

everyone's gonna be thinking emma who you've possibly heard of her son king edward the confessor his death in 1066 led to the little kerfuffle known as the norman conquest and the bio tapestry which of course is what our artwork is based on but emma herself absolute tumbleweed there's no movies there's i, there's a trilogy of historical novels by Patricia Bracewell. Emma popped up in a recent series called Vikings Valhalla that's on Netflix, but that's kind of it. Oh, have you seen that?

I think so, yeah. Oh, OK. Is there another show that's also, like, probably factually completely incorrect? Is it called Last Kingdom or...? Oh, yeah, that's slightly earlier. Oh, is that slightly...? Slightly earlier, but yes. Is that right? Roughly the right or oh yeah that's slightly earlier slightly earlier but yes

right roughly the right era so that's good so okay jen's got some little things firing in the background there but who is this fairly unknown medieval english queen how did she end up being queen of england not once but spoiler alert twice and what was the dating scene like for royal women in the 11th century let's find out. Professor Elizabeth, let's start with some historical context because this is complicated stuff. So we often define the medieval period on this show as lasting 1,000 years, from the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the Protestant Reformation. When in that 1,000 years do we find Emma? Where does she pop up? So Emma lived 1,000 years ago, so roughly in the middle of medieval history.

She was born probably 985 and died in 1052. So that's bang in the middle of medieval history. In fact, that's so bang in the middle that she was a teenager for the first millennium. It's also wild how long she lived in the 11th century. I mean, she lived to what would be considered quite a ripe old age, wouldn't she? That's what, that's 67 probably? Yeah. I mean, that's like in medieval Asia. That's probably like 325, isn't it? So she's born in 985, probably. And then we're talking here about Normandy. So Jen, what do you know about medieval Normandy? Well, I'm assuming

it's France, Normandy. So Normandy, is that not what France was known as about medieval Normandy? Well, I'm assuming it's France, Normandy. So Normandy, is that not what France was known as, was Normandy? Am I completely wrong? You're looking at me like, no, Dummo, that is not. No judgment. What I love is that you've absolutely picked the right answer, but it's not true. So this is the problem with medieval history. Elizabeth, Normandy, not France.

France and Normandy, complicated concepts a thousand years ago. France wasn't France yet. So we need to go about 200 years before Emma's time and look at what Charlemagne did. He had built a huge Frankish empire, which included France and Switzerland, some of Germany, Austria and Italy. But his descendants couldn't hold it together. And by the time we're looking at Emma, the Carolingian dynasty that had

pulled all that space together was replaced by the Capetians. And they ruled about two thirds of what would become modern France. But it's not France as we know it still. And the king, he wasn't much more than an equal to various counts and dukes. So he had very little power and kind of hung out in Paris. So Normandy was, so was it a region rather than a country? Right, so that's it. So what we've, actually we've got a little bit more complications. So you say you've watched maybe The Last Kingdom.

Yes, I have. I mean, let's not go to that for life, actually, correct. But do you want to guess how the Vikings might be involved in Normandy? Did vikings they invaded normandy they held big parties yeah no so the first duke of normandy who wasn't actually a duke yet the count of normandy was called rollo and he invaded in what 9 11 and he what steals the land he and his friends are hanging out there settling and finally the, this not very powerful king, cedes him territory and makes him a count. He has to convert to Christianity in return.

You know, the king's hoping Rolo's going to play ball and be just a normal French count. And the territory's named Normandy because Rolo was a Nordman, a man from the north. But of course, it doesn't work out so smoothly. I mean, I could have predicted that. Listen, I don't, I mean, like, I would have just met one Viking and gone,

I'm pretty sure I can't trust you guys to do anything. They didn't look like they played ball. So Normandy is named after... The Nordmen. The Nordmen, the Vikings. Yeah. And Rollo is Emma of Normandy's great granddaddy. So that's why we've mentioned him. So she's a descendant from a Viking. But what does it mean to be a Norman then, Elizabeth,

if she's got this Viking heritage, but she's sort of living in northern France-ish, speaking French? Yep. So we're very much talking about this French Frankish meets Scandinavian kind of identity. And the Normans, they learn French, but they're very keen on their Scandinavian heritage and they seem still to speak Danish. Do you know what? I was in Normandy recently. They love a blonde beer. I'm not saying that goes back that far, but they absolutely did. You know that? They couldn't get a pilsner for love nor money in Normandy. Okay, so they didn't even speak French at that time. I had no idea. They're learning French, so they're bilingual probably, aren't they?

If you are in that region of France, say Normandy or even Brittany, they have a dialect then, even today, don't they? Yeah, different pronunciation. Just like in England. Yeah, although Breton is an older language. It goes back to the Iron Age. It's a Celtic language and it's linked to Brittonic, but we won't go into that. We've got to go one language at a time here, mate. You're absolutely killing me.

We're only on page two. Okay. Our Normans are sort of distinct culture of their own. So they're speaking French and Danish. What else is distinct about them? Emma's dad, for example. What do we know about him? distinct about them? Emma's dad, for example, what do we know about him? He's actually trying to revive their Scandinavian identity as a way of creating cohesion among quite a disparate group of people in Normandy. He's trying to persuade them, they're all Normans, to kind of get them to hang together. And you see that in the way he's buried. The historian Pauline Stafford, who wrote a wonderful book about Emma, she talks about how he has a Christian grave in an abbey, but it's put on the cliffs above Fécond Harbour, so that it's also a bit like the burial of a Viking warrior. And in fact, they're reviving that Viking identity in this

point. Okay, so it's a fusion of things. And his funeral is also a fusion of things, which is interesting. But Emma's Scandinavian heritage doesn't just come from her dad, Richard, Count of Normandy. It also comes from her mum. She's one of nine children, Elizabeth. But we think we know who her mum is. Is it Gunnar? Yes, we think we know who her mum is. Yeah, her mum is Gunnar. Absolutely. A thousand years ago, it's hard to know who people's mums are sometimes. Yeah. And sometimes they tell us different stories. So Gunnar was Richard's second wife. So Richard's first wife was called Emma. And of course, we're going to have a whole game through this whole podcast about who's Richard and his birth.

Richard is her dad. Richard is her dad. And he's the first Duke of Normandy. Richard the first. Her brother is also going to be Richard. Oh no, come on. So everybody's got the same name. Everyone's either Richard or Emma or Elf Gifu. Oh, sorry, what was the last one? Elf Gifu. We'll get to that. Don't worry. I'm amazed that didn't continue. Elf Gifu. The catchy name there. That marriage to Gunnar is actually kind of part of that revival of the Scandinavian identity of the Normans because she's from a more recently arrived Danish family, and she probably speaks Danish.

So we know very, very little about Emma's childhood, but I think we can situate it in this place where there is this interaction of Scandinavian and Frankish, but actually this revived sense of we're Norman, we're Northmen. Okay, so the Normans are different. They're proud to be different. And Emma's primary language would probably have been French, but we think she can also speak Danish. And Latin, do you think? Educated?

No, I don't think she can. She's not educated. That's a very British thing to say. Not educated, it's all bilingual, but sadly. She's not given that schooling that we might assume would be given to a royal child. OK, and the transformative event in Emma's young life, Jen, was when she was age 17 and she is married off to a quite important chap, King Æthelred II of England in the year 1002. I've heard of King Æthelred. Have you? What have you heard? Probably whatever I picked up from some Netflix drama. Is he the chap that had terrible stomach issues? Oh, that's Alfred. Yeah, I think Alfred's the one with the haemorrhoids and the piles.

He had terrible piles. Okay, great. I didn't want to bring up piles this early on in the show, actually, but here we are. So King Ethelred is before King Alfred. After. So, yes, I'm mixing up my shows. OK, so perhaps I picked this up from another absolutely classic show, historically probably incredibly inaccurate. It's called Vikings. I've heard of it. Right, there we go.

So I've known about King Ethelred through watching that show. I've known about King Ethelred through watching that show. And he tried to create a relationship between the Vikings and the English. No. Okay. You're doing very well to navigate these incredibly difficult things. But no, we're into 1002, which is a different Ethelred. Number two.

So let's do the basics. He is 36. Emma is 17. You're wincing, Jen. Gross. Yeah. Yeah, OK. I'm honking my problematic marriage klaxon, as I so often do on this show. We've had worse, but that is still creepy. She's 17. She's farmed off to go and marry the King of England. A very powerful man. Emma's dad had been known as Richard the Fearless.

Jen, do you know what Ethelred's epithet or nickname was? Ethelred the Goer? I don't know. I mean, he is 36 and she's 17. I don't know. Who knows? No, the name that he's given by history is Ethelred the Unready.

Have you ever heard that phrase? I've never heard that, but if he's not ready at 36, God help him, he's never going to be ready, is he? Come on, mate, grow up. Where does he get this name from, Elizabeth? So it's a joke. And it means, if you say unready, that means ill-advised, because the word rad in Old English means advice.

So he's called Ethelred the ill-advised. But there's a pun there because his name, Ethel Rad, means well-advised. So it's a joke. Well-advised, the poorly advised. And it's hard to resist. It is a good gag. Okay. It's an absolute banger, Elizabeth. That's coming out. I'm telling you, in the next special, if you hear that, was he not considered to be a great king? Was he sort of not respected or was he very much respected? But everyone was like, this guy can take a joke. Yeah, I mean, it all starts out kind of badly. So he's got a half brother, Edward the Martyr, who's not a martyr when he starts out.

So he's got this half brother, Edward the Martyr. And Æthelred's ambitious mother bumps him off so that her son, Æthelred, can rule. Æthelred's only 10 at the time, so we can't blame him for it. But it kind of hangs like a cloud over his reign. Things just weren't on his side. Æthelred comes to power and then he has to face just constant Viking invasions. And what he does is he pays them off.

He's 10! What's going on? is he pays them off. He's 10. What's going on? Well, he gets older. He gets older. I've got two kids who are nine. I can barely get them to pee in the toilet. I'm not expecting them to run a country. What are we talking about here? This is insane.

It was quite a long reign, actually. But he's just constantly bedeviled by Vikings. So, Jen, what do you think England was like a thousand years ago? Emma's just shown up. She's crossed the channel. She's shown up in this new country. She doesn't speak the language. What do you think it's like for her?

It's not great for foreigners now, isn't it? I can't imagine it was brilliant back then. I'm going to say she wasn't welcomed with open arms. Also, she's very young. She's only 17. She's a woman. I can't imagine she had a great deal of agency or a great deal of authority or indeed power.

I mean, I might be wrong. I'm hoping that eventually she comes into her own as she had a great deal of agency or a great deal of authority or indeed power. I mean, I might be wrong. I'm hoping that eventually she comes into her own as she becomes a woman. But certainly on moving there, I would have thought it would have been a bit of a steep learning curve. But Emma's really focused on this agency thing. She's after it. England at this time is powerful, Elizabeth. It's wealthy. It's tax rich.

It's a land of great art and culture, intellectuals and beautiful objects. But its recent political history, absolute chaos. Yeah, absolutely. Because what we call England, and we just take England for granted, was really made up of four main kingdoms. Wessex, which is where Æthelred's hanging out, and East Anglia and Mercia and Northumbria. And they had been independent and they never forgot this. But the Viking invasions in the mid 800s totally redrew the map and you end up with just the West Saxons left. The Vikings have knocked everybody else off

and anybody else who might be left, the West Saxons have knocked off. So you end up around 900 with just one English king left and that's Alfred. And that kicks off a whole century where his dynasty is trying to make England into one kingdom. And it's Alfred's famous grandson, Avelstan, who really starts to make that happen. And it's Avelstan who's the first king of the English and that's not till 927 and even that falls apart straight away and they've got to try it again. You're looking at a space that's not securely England. That's new. And so when we speak of England, Scotland is having its own thing going on.

It's got its own history and its own kings and its own drama. Is that the same for Wales as well? Yes, Scotland and Wales have their own thing going on, but the English kings would love to make Scotland and Wales part of England. Same old, same old, right? So England in 927 is set in stone in very much the borders we think of it today. So what's interesting is that modern England's geographical boundaries

are kind of there a thousand years ago, but Englishness is a project. I think part of that project is that in some ways there was a sense of being English, but that didn't mean they expected to be ruled in one kingdom. And they talk in different ways, there's lots of different dialects. And I think it's also important to remember at this point, there's loads of people within that territory that the West Saxons have made England who aren't English speakers. So you have people who speak Britannic. So those are people in Cumbria and Cornwall and on the borders with Wales. And then you've got this whole space, the Danelaw, that Alfred and his descendants reincorporated into England.

So that's Yorkshire, East Anglia, the five boroughs of the Midlands, where they're speaking Norse. So it's a really multilingual place with also these ancient kingdom identities going on. So it can fall apart in numerous directions. So it's a place of change. So Emma has walked into a pretty much brand new country, pretty much brand new identity. She's got to learn a new language. Oh, she's got to learn about another six languages. What are you talking about, learn a new language?

The poor woman's turned up and they're like, what language are you speaking? Oh, you don't know Norse? You don't know? She knows Norse. She knows Danish. She knows Norse. That's her advantage.

So Elizabeth, how does this marriage work? How do you arrange a dynastic marriage in the year 1002? Yeah. So, I mean, these are high politics between really important families and there's negotiation between families and then there's a kind of formal betrothal and there has to be giving of gifts and dowry. And only then does this young woman travel and there's a very public marriage ceremony before there's any consummation, anything happening in the bedroom. But that's really important too.

And then, of course, Emma also gets consecrated as queen. But it's not a love match. You know, a king doesn't have any choice about his marriage either in many ways. So, you know, she's been trained as a diplomat, really. Why does England and Normandy, why is this dynastic match useful to them? Because they both have problems with Vikings in the English Channel. The Normans have for a long time been sheltering the Vikings who are attacking England. Ethelred is trying to get that situation under control by coming into some kind of arrangement with Richard II.

So it's an alliance against the Vikings, but it doesn't last. We've had Richard the Fearless. We've met Æthelred the Unready. We've now got Emma the Peace Weaver. That's the nickname that we give her, Emma the Peace Weaver, because by uniting these two power bases, she's weaving peace, which is quite charming, I think. What would you want your nickname to be from Outsiders, and what do you think would be the honest one you would get? God, I mean, something like the Peace Weaver would be incredible. Somebody that represents

unity and somebody that represents something calm and, you know, reason, fairness. But in truth, I think my nickname would be Jenny Agro. Just the aggravated one would probably be my nickname. That's quite catchy though, Jenny Agro. Yeah, Jenny Agro. Here she comes, flipping it. Put your earmuffs on. Yeah, I think that would be more likely. So it's good to know. Well, you seem very chill today. I'm not getting those vibes, but you know. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's because I haven't been sold off to some 36-year-old bloke in another country.

That's fair. Okay, so Elizabeth, does Emma, the peace weaver, succeed in her peace weaving mission? Ooh, not really. It seems actually she stirs up more trouble. You go, girl. It's alleged that the Danes attacked Exeter in 1003, which was part of her dowry, so it's her city, as a retaliation for those closer relationships between the English and the Normans. So that's not a good start.

And certainly she had a reeve with her. Her senior servant was blamed for this, and it was also blamed on him being a bit French, too. So we're already twitching around about, you know, not only are they twitching about her being maybe a bit Scandinavian, she's also a bit French too. So we're already twitching around about, not only are they twitching about her being maybe a bit Scandinavian, she's also a bit French. And then Ethelred had massacred a whole lot of Danes in 1002.

So that raid on Exeter might also have been in retaliation for that. I mean, yeah, I can see why. Massacring is really going to wind up people, isn't it? It's not cool. It's called the St. Brice's Day Massacre. It's a very famous moment in medieval history. He basically he rounds up every able-bodied Viking man of a certain age and they are slaughtered without warning, without trial. His fear is that the men who live in England are helping the invading Vikings and he slaughters them all.

And it's horrific. Oh, God, that's dreadful. the invading Vikings, and he slaughters them all. And it's horrific. Oh, God, that's dreadful. Yeah. It's even more dreadful because you've got this long established, settled Danish population in England.

There have been people there for 150 years at least, haven't there? The Archbishop of Canterbury was from one of these Danish families. Things get even more complicated now. You won't believe this, but Æthelred's first wife had been called Ælfgivu. Æthelred had been married before right and he made emma change her name to elf givu elf givu yeah it's not as catchy so his first wife dies he marries he's got a second wife a young wife emma her name is quite clearly emma he's introduced her as emma she's very much named emma And he's like, you know what? How about Elfgivu? Do you fancy changing it to that? It's just my first wife. Put on this dress. Oh, you look just like her. I feel like, is that the vibe that he just wanted? I mean,

it's a very odd thing to do, to give your dead wife's name to your new wife. Is this usual? It's a sort of an anglification process. Is it, Elizabeth? Does it sort of make her a bit more familiar to the English? So Emma was not a traditional Saxon name? Emma's a Viking name. No, Emma's a Frankish name. Her father, Richard I, was first married to a princess, a Frankish princess named Emma of Paris. And then Emma is born to Richard I and Gunnar, his second wife, but she's named after his first wife.

Right. OK. So Elfgivu is a good name. God, being English is so niche, isn't it? This is what I'm learning from medieval history is that being English is like about 0.001% of the population in this country are actually English. It's an idea. It's an idea. It's an idea. Yeah. OK.

So Elizabeth Elfgifu is her new adopted name, but she keeps being called Emma in certain records? In some records, yeah. But she's more often called Elfgifu, which means elf gift too. So you should keep that in mind as you're talking about her, that you've got all these elf gifts running around. Does that mean gifted by the elves or gifted to the elves? That's a good question.

I think from the elves. Sorry. I just, I'm completely lost. And it's a normal English name. Okay, so normal English name, Elfgivu. Are you talking about, I mean, obviously I'm thinking of Tolkien, but what do they know an elf to be? Elves are sort of magical forest people who are powerful,

but you don't want to mess with them so they can harm you. You can be elf shot, which is if you get a sort of mystery pain, like appendicitis, they would explain it as elf shot. The elves are to be respected, but slightly feared. Elizabeth, Emma has done her duty of marrying Ethelred, the unready or the not yet ready or the yet to be unready. I don't know whether he's been named yet. Ethelred II, let's say that.

And her job, I suppose, is to have children, to have an heir. That's what queens are for. Does she manage this? Does she pop out a prince? Oh, yes, she does. And pretty quickly. So Edward, that's our Edward the Confessor who's going to turn up later Was born sometime between 1003 and 1005 And then she has another son, Alfred

So she's got two, an heir and a spare Oh, she's doing so well Yeah, she's nailing it I know, exactly Yeah, yeah, she's nailed it And a daughter, Godgifu Gift of God Godgifu, oh

That's a lot to live up to, isn't it? Yeah Oh, you think you're God's gift It's not my fault, it's my name Shut up That's a lot to live up to, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, you think you're God's gift. It's not my fault. It's my name. Shut up. Edward and Alfred, that's good sort of military names. Absolutely.

And those, I mean, Edward and Alfred are successful military kings. Great, great grandfather, whatever, Alfred, and then his son, Edward, who pushed the Vikings out. So no pressure. And it might seem obvious to say, but Emma's importance as queen comes in part from those sons that she bore. Later tradition suggests that when she was pregnant with Edward, there was an oath sworn that if the child was a boy, that he would become the king. Which is not a given at this time in history. They don't have the kind of hard and fast rule that the firstborn son is automatically king. Is that correct? No, because you want the son who's the strongest king. Right. So you let them fight it out, really? Oh, really? So there wasn't that, you wasn't like that natural succession for your firstborn that you would naturally succeed and become heir

to the throne? Because you've got twins. You've got twin boys, Jen, haven't you? I've got twins. So they'd have to fight it out. They would have to be a wrestling match. Yeah. They'd have to dig a mud pit in the garden and just come on, fellas, sort it out. Yeah, that's really interesting. So why was that decided then? Because the firstborn could

be anyone. Could be an absolute numpty. So you want the best, a long-stay royal, best for the role. Why didn't they keep that tradition up? this whole firstborn nonsense? That's the Normans for you. The Normans, they come in and they ruin everything. She has an heir and a spare, Emma. They are Alfred and Edward.

I guess that gives her a bit more stability and power. Absolutely. And she has this sort of lovely Latin name. Yeah. She's called Con Laterana Regis, which means she who is at the king's side. We're going to watch out for that because she's learning a lot about how to be king of England, which she's going to teach someone else later. Interesting. Let's just drop that little hint. Okay. So this cosy family scene that we've established, it's disturbed quite dramatically

in the year 1013. So if we jump forward 10 years, Jen, we get another surprise Danish invasion. And they don't just trash Exeter this time. They steal the entire kingdom. Oh my goodness. Yeah, Æthelred is booted off the throne. He loses his throne. The new king of England has a fantastic name. He's called Swain Forkbeard. Doesn't just have a great name and great facial hair. He also has Denmark and Norway. So this is his third kingdom. And guess how long this new

mighty imperial king, Swain Forkbeard, rules England for, Jen? I'm going to say a massively long three years. Five weeks. Oh! Liz Truss, eat your heart out, my love. We found your namesake in Fort Beard.

Yeah, he drops dead immediately. We're not sure how. Oh, he drops dead. There's stories he falls off his horse, he's crushed by his horse. I mean, the crucial question is, Ethelred, he's not been killed. So he's still hanging around?

He's still hanging around. Has he done a run-up? Where is Emma? Where are her kids? Where, Ethelred, he's not been killed. So he's still hanging around? He's still hanging around. Has he done a run up? Where is Emma? Where are her kids? Where is Ethelred at this point? So Emma and the kids go straight to Normandy. Of course. And Ethelred follows.

And it's hard to know if this was a temporary tactical retreat. I mean, it couldn't have been fun hanging out in Normandy for Ethelred. Well, he doesn't speak the language either, does he? No, it's true. So he's got to speak through Emma. She's the college pin. Oh, yes, please. You go, Emma.

He's off there in Normandy. We don't know if it's tactical retreat or an abdication. But after Svein's sudden death, the question arises, could he make a comeback? Or is Svein's son Canute going to succeed him? You would think with that kind of absolutely apoplectic shame of being knocked off by Forkbeard,

that you'd be like, listen, I've got to hide under a bin for a couple of months before I come out again and show my face. Does he go, no, I'm going back? So Æthelred does come back, keen to get away from his in-laws, but the Danes have chosen Canute, who's Fane's son. So there's a whole tussle between Canute and Ethelred. And Ethelred comes out on top temporarily in 1014, but then he dies in 1016. And when he dies, he's replaced by his oldest surviving son,

who's Edmund Ironside. Really good name. Really good name. But remember, he is not Emma's son. He's son of Elf Guifu number one. Remember her? Oh, I'm so sorry. So I got confused between that Edward and the other Edward, who's Edward the Confessor.

This is Edmund. Oh, this is Edmund. I beg your pardon. Edmund Ironside, which makes him sound like a TV detective. Showing your age, Greg. Sorry, yeah, it was a little bit, wasn't it? Sorry, Elizabeth, sorry. Meanwhile, Emma's oldest son, Edward, he's only 11 or 12.

So he's got no hope of being the candidate chosen to take on the Danish fleet. And all this time, we're not actually sure where Emma is. Is she in London? Is she in Normandy? And what role she played in opposing Canute? There are legends told later that she led heroic resistance. Who knows? And so Canute and Edmund are battling it out.

And after the Battle of Ashdown in 1016, they agree to divide the kingdom. But five weeks later, Edmund died. Hang on five weeks later again? Suspicious isn't it? What is wrong with these guys? It is suspicious Once is careless, twice is a pattern. That feels like a sort of this is my new conspiracy theory

that people are getting bumped off every five weeks Every five weeks in medieval England. And we're going to have more bumped off kings before we finish Oh okay. So Edmund Ironside he's dead suddenly five weeks in medieval England. And we're going to have more bumped off kings before we finish. Oh, OK. All right, so Edmund Ironside, he's dead suddenly five weeks later. So Canute grabs the whole kingdom. And this then leaves Emma exposed because her husband is dead. Her children are threats.

She's a threat. So is that something that Canute is worried about? I've heard of this guy. I've heard of King Canute. I've got a feeling he's not a guy to be messed with. I'm hoping you're going to tell me, Elizabeth, that Emma goes gun blazing and takes her 12-year-old son and points him under her armpit and away they go and takes on King Canute. Is that what happens?

No, they go off to hide out in Normandy. Oh, what? So Edward and his little brother Alfred head off to Normandy. Canute is trouble because what he does is he murders another prince named Eyadwig, who's Æthelred's last remaining son with Elf Gifu I. So he's trying to get rid of all these people. And then Edmund Ironside had young children when he died, and his infant son ends up in Central Europe, where he eventually marries a princess from Kiev.

Emma was rightly worried about her own sons, but she didn't send them as far away as Kiev. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. I'm historian Ruth Goodman, host of The Curious History of Your Home. I spent my life investigating the hidden history of everyday objects. A vacuum cleaner in your cupboard, sleek and compact today, but when it was invented it was literally powered by horses and took four to six

people to operate. Double glazed windows? We owe those to a French king's odd fascination with oranges. From award-winning podcasters Noisa, the curious history of your home. So what do you think Emma does next, Jen? Her husband is dead. The man who defeated her husband is dead. The son of that man is now the King of England. What do you think she does? Well, I imagine she tries to find an alliance. And maybe she tries to find an alliance

by marrying somebody that could help her get her son on the throne. So who... So now I've got to figure out who it is she marries, right? Yeah. Okay, so... We've mentioned his name. Oh, what?

Yeah, we've mentioned it. She doesn't marry Canute, does she? She does. What is happening? Oh, my goodness. This soap opera is dramatic. Yeah. She marries Canute.

He sounds very rugged. Is this a marriage of... Again, I imagine this is a marriage of convenience, but is it also a marriage of anything more? Well, Elizabeth, tell us, because this is one of history's sort of great surprise romances, I think. Yeah. It doesn't start out that way.

She marries Canute. And there's two different accounts of that. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle just says, very unceremoniously, Canute had her fetched to be his bride. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle just says, very unceremoniously, Canute had her fetched to be his bride. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. Oh, please. I don't trust them. But later, Emma has her own account written about all that went on, and she claims that Canute wooed her. But it's also fun.

You know, earlier we were kind of squeamish that Emma was so young when she married the older Ethelred. Now the tables are turned. Canute's a teenager and she's in her thirties. What? She's a cougar. Oh my goodness me. Listen, we can't have double standards, but let's do it anyway. So she's bagged herself a young Nordic man, a young Viking. A teenage boy, really. Right, okay. So, I mean, look, I don't want to make huge generalisations here, but I'm imagining quite easy to manipulate Elizabeth.

Am I right? Well, keep listening. Yeah, she's got more power now. She's much more sophisticated. She's a woman of the world. Yes. Yes, she has things to teach him. Yes, right. Yes. She's been more sophisticated. She's a woman of the world. Yes. Yes. She has things to teach him. Yes, right.

Yes. She's been a queen already. She's a mother. She's lived in two countries. She knows how stuff works. She's speaking a lot of languages. Remind me again. So this is how many years?

This is 1016, is it? Yeah, 1016. So 1016, she, Ethel, whatever his face, gone. Bye bye. Oh, so sad. And now she's with the king, Canute. Her second king. Her second king.

Yummers. And so they are going to now rule, presumably, England. Not Normandy as well. No. Do they have Normandy? No, he hasn't got Normandy. He's got Scandinavian territories. So he's got Norway.

And was it Denmark? And Denmark and England. So Norway, Denmark and England. This is incredibleandy. He's got Scandinavian territories. So he's got Norway. And was it Denmark? Denmark and England. So Norway, Denmark and England. This is incredible scenes. She's done so well. And now she's also in a position where she has much more power and influence than she had in her previous marriage. Absolutely. No, and we credit her alongside an archbishop called Wulstan with, in a way, teaching Canute how to be an English king. You have to write law codes, you have to write letters, you have to strike coins, you have to behave in a certain way towards the church. And she's there to help him and to explain it to him in Danish.

I love that he is reliant on her to translate a lot of stuff, because honestly, she can say anything and he's not going to know. So is this a happy relationship? Well, there is a slight catch. Oh, okay. Knut, the teenage boy, already married. Wait, sorry, what? Sort of married.

Sort of married. And also, guess what his wife's called? Oh my God. Not called Emma, is it? Elfgivu. I thought that was an English... Wait au. I thought that was an English... Wait a second. I thought that was an English name. So now we've got three Elfgifus. So this is Elfgifu 3.

Oh my God. I can't keep up with the Elfgifus. I never heard of that name. And now there's... They all come in threes. It's the classic. This is a northern Elf... A Mercian Elfgifu.

Midlands, yeah. North Midlands. A Brummie. A Brummie elf givu. Exactly. Right, okay. Wow, three elf givus in a row. And why has he married her?

Because he's young. What's he gaining from that marriage? Well, so he's coming into England from the Trent. So having a power base in the north Midlands is really important to him. And she comes from a family that had been kind of disaffected during Æthelred's reign. So it's a good power base for him, that early alliance. And they have two sons, Svein, another Svein, and Harald. But she, Elf Gifu, doesn't have the same political cachet that Emma has. And so since 1017, Canute sidelines Gifu in order to marry Emma. But he doesn't set her aside.

She's not repudiated. And in fact, in 1030, she's sent with her son, Svein, to rule in Norway. But she's never consecrated queen, whereas Emma is consecrated queen. That makes her top wife. To be honest, the women in this story are doing surprisingly well, all considered. A lot of the men are dying off horrifically or accidentally. Every five weeks, it seems.

So is Canute the king of Emma's heart? If you read Emma's account of it, which also had Canute having to woo her, definitely she talks about them taking delight in each other. Which also had Canute having to woo her. Definitely. She talks about them taking delight in each other. Oh, and this is from her. This is firsthand from Emma. We're going to talk more about that later.

She does leave a really interesting account. But just because it's firsthand from Emma doesn't necessarily believe it. Okay. They are married until 1035, nearly 20 years. And Canute's death in 1035 leads to yet more contenders scrabbling for the throne. So there's no peaceful handover of power here, Jen. Wow, she's outliving a lot of these men. Yeah,

yeah. I mean, men don't live long in medieval England, do they? So was he murdered? No, he dies of sort of just normal things that kill you age, you know. Okay. So he's not murdered, he's not sort of just normal things that kill you age. Okay. So he's not murdered. He's not bumped off.

He's a very powerful king, Canute. He's often called Canute the Great, which is rare in English history. So the wannabes in waiting, Elizabeth, who have we got? You mentioned Harold. Is that Harold Harefoot? Yeah, but we forgot to talk about Emma and Canute's son. Oh, of course, yes. Part of the reason she and canute are so happy is they've had a son called harley canute harley canute it's spelt hard harley canute yeah

it's spelled harford means hard nut oh hartha canute yeah hartha canute which means hardcore canute so if you imagine canute was hardcore this guy son is this guy. You don't want to mess with him. He's Canute times two. He's Canute and steroids. Okay. I think that's what they hoped for. That's not what they got. Anyway. So they've got half a Canute world floating around as well.

And then you've got Harold and Spain. But you've also got Edward and Alfred. You've got five of these people. This is so, I'm so stressed. All making a play. So, you know, when Canute dies, it's absolute chaos and slaughter of the would-be kings. I mean, look, do we all get to a point where we go, do you know what?

I mean, do you want to be king? Let's just, I've got this lovely house in Normandy. Should we just hang there and have a lovely time? You don't ever have to work. You can get married if you want, if you don't. I mean, what is this desperate urge to be king of this country when it just means that you're probably going to be dead in five weeks? I don't know if you've seen what happened to these other guys.

I feel the same, but they do seem determined to be king. They're desperate, aren't they? So talk us through the slaughter, Elizabeth. Who survives this bloodthirsty battle royale? First, you get Harold on the throne. That's Canute's second son with Elf Gifu of Northampton. Oh, right. Sorry. returns from Norway in order to back her son. Meanwhile, Emma is backing her son, Harthacnut, but he's off in Denmark. So Harold comes out on top at this stage. Emma is totally stressed and buggers off to Flanders to get out of the way. I don't blame her. But she's really rooting for Har the Canute to return.

She circulates all sorts of rumors about Harold not being the true son of Elf Gifu and Canute, but instead a bastard born to a serving maid. And that the father is a humble cobbler. So these rumors are like, not only is he not Canute's son, he's not even Elf Gifu's son. So what does Elf Gifu do at this point? She must be like, how dare you speak about my son? Yeah, she didn't leave us an account. But it's really interesting, this use of slander and gossip.

It's Real Housewives of Medieval England, isn't it? Yeah, these two big... But it's her political tool. I mean, it's still... Undercutting the legitimacy of the rival boy. Leaking a story to the Sussex, whatever it was, to the Wessex Press. But we're still not done. Okay, keep going then, go on.

We're still not through the chaos, sorry. So there's not only this Harold and Har the Cannut thing going on with Harold on the throne. Some sources say that Emma plotted against Alfred and Edward too, that she lures them back to England, her own boys, in order to have them disposed of in favor of Harthacnut. Whoa, wait a second. And Harthacnut, Edward and Alfred did land in southern England in 1036 with an army of mercenaries hoping to claim the throne. But Alfred soon was captured in Guildford, blinded, and he ended up dead in Ely.

Oops. How did he get from Guildford to Ely? That's what I want to know. I know. So Emma blames Harold. Harold blames Emma. And then there's a guy named Godwin who gets a lot of flack for it as well.

Who knows? Yeah, he's the Earl of Guildford, isn't he? He's the guy who captured them. What is her motivation for trying to dispose of her two firstborn sons? She really wants Harlequin on the throne. And it's not clear. She claims that she didn't lure them back. Yeah. But's not clear. She claims that she didn't lure them back.

Yeah. But she spends a lot of energy claiming she didn't lure them back, which makes you think... She does protest too much. Is this counter gossip? Yes. Is this a retaliation for her spreading the gossip about the other guy being the son of a servant girl

or whatever it is, or a cobbler? I mean, I could get Elf Givun luring these young men across to have them murdered. But if your own... Like, it just... I don't know, it just feels like it goes against the instinct of any mother to murder your own children, doesn't it? It's just wild.

So Alfred is blinded and dies of his injuries later. Poor Alfred. Edward survives and will become Edward the Confessor. And Harold, Harold Harefoot, Harthacanute are still squabbling it out. So, but Harold has taken the throne. Yes. But Harthacanute is going,ling it out. So, but Harald has taken the throne. Yes. But Harthacnut is going, I'm going to take it from you.

Yeah, but it takes a long time to come back from Denmark is the problem. But he does come back and Harald Harefoot dies and Harthacnut becomes king. And he digs up Harald's body from his grave and has it thrown in the marsh. Oh, wow. That's so petty. Harsh in the marsh. Harsh in the marsh. Oh, wow. That's so petty. Harsh in the marsh. Harsh in the marsh. How many weeks later was this, Elizabeth?

Was it five weeks? No, this was 1041. We're a bit further down the line. So he manages to hold onto the throne for six years, Harold. Is that right? Yeah. 1035 to 1041. You're doing very well with the dates here.

You're doing better than I am. Well done. You've got better maths than I am. Elizabeth, I've written some very, very scratchy notes down here, which I am constantly looking at to make myself look vaguely like I know what's going on, because I actually don't. So Harold dies at 10.41 from disease, general medievalness. So we're left now with either Edward the Confess the confessor yep and harthacanute that's right

is there somebody else that i'm missing swain no no swain swain kind of disappears i'll forget swain good for you swain go and live your life yeah yeah just just go and become a holiday rep in ion apple or something just yeah why not so we're really only looking at Harthacnut and not Harith because he's dead, but Edward the Confessor. Okay. And so who now is Emma rooting for? Well, Emma, two of her sons. Harthacnut's on the throne,

but it seems that Harthacnut is not well. And Emma persuades him to invite Edward back to co-rule with him. So you have Harthacnut and Edward as co-kings. At this point, is Edward going, mum, you already asked me across once and it didn't bode well for Alfred. You know what, I think I'm going to swerve this and I'm going to stay where I am, if that's okay. Or does he go, no, you're my mum and I trust you. He definitely doesn't trust her, but he does come back and Haida Knute and Edward rule together. But if you look at what Emma has to say about it, Haida Knute, Edward and Emma rule together.

Oh, OK. Mum's getting involved. Yep. She sounds like one of those mums that will be always involved. Yeah. You're not marrying her, are you? So, wow. She's pretty powerful. mean not likable but very she's come a long way from the 17 year old she's really worked out all the machinations of being in at that level quite quickly really how old is she at this point elizabeth i'm guessing sort of 56 56

wow she's again that's like 128 in the medieval years. People are like, how is this woman still alive? And she is, in terms of the royal family in England, is the longest serving member. So is she liked by the English? That's a good question. She's not liked by Edward, who deprives her of her wealth and moves her out. And the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle has something to say about that as well. He says that he got rid of her because she formerly had been very hard to him, her son, in that she did less for him than he wished, both before and after he became a king. And we end up with Edward the Confessor becoming king. He is the guy who accidentally brings about

the whole 1066 by a tapestry, Butler Hastings thing that you studied at school when you were 10? Yes, we're full circle. We're full circle. Back to the start of the episode. I know we're going to talk about this in a nuanced window, but just where do we get our sources from? Is it the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle? Anything else that's a vital source we need to know about? There's later 11th and 12th century writers. But the text that we've been talking about that's been lurking behind is a text called The Encomium Emma Regina, which just means, that sounds very fancy, it just means in praise of

Queen Emma. Written by? Ah, there we go. She commissioned this text. It's written in Latin, which is a really interesting reminder that you can have a Latin text that you can't read because people can read it to you in your own language. And Latin's especially useful when there's lots of different languages floating around. Yes, it's the lingua franca of the educated classes and the church, isn't it? So if you write it in Latin, the important people can read it. But she can't read her own autobiography. But actually, it's not her autobiography this is what it's a story about spain canute and harvard canute from her perspective

and she got someone in from the outside from flanders to write it and it's full of really wild lies including that edward is canute's son okay which nobody believed especially edward so we don't even necessarily believe that this was a wild romance between her and Canute either. That's her story. It's a great story. I mean, we've praised Emma's political operating skills,

but the sad end of the story is that Edward is terrified of her and acts against her. As soon as he comes to power, he shuts her down, doesn't he, Elizabeth? Absolutely. That's when he takes away her treasure, the whole bit. She is totally sidelined. So what happens to Emma then? Where does she end up?

Is it a kind of nunnery type situation? No, I don't think she lives in a nunnery, which is unusual. Lots of them do. Maybe they didn't want her. But she's retired to Winchester. So she's poor and she's living in Winchester. Not poor. So she's poor and she's living in Winchester. Well, she's not poor, but she doesn't have the wild amounts of treasure that she thinks would be appropriate to her status. And they're attending Canute's grave.

She dies in 1052 and is buried next to Canute. But there is an epitaph. There is a poetic epitaph for her, which suggests that she had a reputation that wasn't all bad. And a poet writes, she had kings as sons and kings as husbands. This is the theme. She shone forth in the glory of her progeny of kings. She excelled in virtue, even the ranks of her glorious ancestors. So that's pretty good.

It's not bad on the tombstone, isn't it? So she died 1052. We think she was probably in her mid to late 60s. We're not totally certain. She did very well. Did very well, as you said, lived to 325 in dog years.

She was buried next to Canute in the church. This is the St. Swithin's church in Winchester. So she was buried side by side with her second husband who had been her mortal enemy. But who she obviously loved,

because she did so much to elevate their son. Yeah. She did so much to make sure that whatever the reality was, that everyone believed that they had this love match. That was really important to her, even to the point where she wanted to be buried next to him. So, yeah, it was obviously an important relationship for Emma. Whether or not it was happy, I guess we will never know.

But she felt like it was important. I mean, she's quite the woman, really. Yeah. I'm kind of amazed that I never, never heard of her. Yeah. Never heard of her, given how much influence and power that she had during that time Hey! When's Netflix

going to be commissioning this drama? That's what I want to see That's just what I was thinking Guys, tap me up, I'll be there in the writer's room, let me know The Nuance Window! This is where Jen and I learn how to spell Elfgivu. It's got a lot more vowels than you think.

And we give two minutes to Professor Elizabeth to tell us something we need to know about Emma of Normandy. Elizabeth, without much further ado, take it away, please. So what I'm going to talk about is how Emma's political power is presented in that encomium that we've been talking about. is presented in that encomium that we've been talking about, that account of Svein, Canute, and Har the Canute, that she had commissioned to protect her interests when it all fell apart. And we've been worrying that this has all been about the men in Emma's life and not about her. And this was on her mind too, and she had something to say about it.

At the end of the encomium, she's depicted as co-ruling with Harthacnut and Edward, not behind the scenes. And indeed, if you look at the illustration that comes at the beginning of the encomium, it is Emma sitting on the throne and Harthacnut and Edward peeking out from behind a curtain. But it gets better. The monk who wrote the Encomium was really learned, and his history is partly based on Virgil's Aeneid. Emma can't read Latin, but doesn't mean she doesn't know the stories that are in Latin texts. The Encomium parallels Canute to the mythical Aeneas, who sailed across the Mediterranean to found Rome from the ruins of Troy, way back in the mist of time. The Encomium also compares Canute to

Julius Caesar, who conquered Gaul, made it to Britain, defeated Antony and Cleopatra, but ended up murdered by Brutus. But in all of this, it's Emma who was the survivor, and she's not left out of this Aeneid business. The encomiust compares her to Octavian, that is Augustus, the first Roman emperor, and the man Virgil wrote for. While dead Canute and dying Canute were all in the past, she was the present and the future. And all this is a really interesting take. It's Emma's take on what it meant to be a wife and mother of kings. And it definitely wasn't about being the power behind the throne. The encomiest wasn't bound by gender roles in imagining her power. Emma is mother and emperor.

Oh, fantastic. Thank you, Elizabeth. Wow, that is really fantastic. Thank you. So Emma is Octavian. Octavian is the heir who takes over from Caesar, becomes the first emperor, and actually is arguably the greatest of the Roman emperors. So actually Emma herself is saying, yep, that's me. Yeah, and do you know what? Fair play to her because I really believe that given how little power women were allowed,

she understood what her influence was and she wanted people to know. I'm the one telling these guys what to do. I mean, I guess we'll never know whether that was the reality or not. But that is, I can imagine that that was a big part of her truth anyway. It's a motherhood story, but it's also a political agency story. You said agency at the beginning of the episode. Yeah, for women, you know. And also, I think it's interesting that a woman of such influence has been forgotten.

So thank you for talking about her and bringing her up. It's fantastic. So what do you know now all right well it's time now for the so what do you know now this is our nothing this is our quickfire quiz for jen who clearly is uh i mean how are you feeling about this jen you have taken more notes than any comedian we've ever had on the show. Yes, but can I read them? I mean, there's a couple of things here. One thing just says Regis.

I don't know what that means. That means king in Latin. Okay, right. Oh, jeez Louise. All right. I've got ten questions for you. Question one. Where was Emma born?

Probably in the year 985. She was born in Normandy in the Capetians. You remember the Capetians. Very good. Capetians. Yeah, she wasn't technically Capetian, but well done for remembering it. Yeah, Normandy is correct. Question two.

Which unlucky English king did Emma marry in the year 1002? She married Ethel Red the... What was his name? Ethel Red the... Ethel Red the Unready. Yes, very good. Well done. You're like a lawyer in court here, checking your briefs.

Looking over my reading glasses, I know. Question three. Name two of Emma's five children from her two marriages. I mean, Alfred and Edward. Yeah, very good. You could have had Godgifu, Harthacnut and Gunnhilde as well. Question four. Emma married two kings, both of whom had previous wives.

Named what? Oh, gosh. Elfgifu. Yeah, well done. Question four. Emma married two kings, both of whom had previous wives, named what? Oh gosh, Elfgevu. Yeah, well done. Question five. What were the two competing stories told about how Emma and Canute got together? I think she had one version and they had another. One was that she was fetched. Yes. And the other was that she was wooed. Very good. Well done. You got it. Question six. What scandalous rumour did Emma allegedly circulate

to undermine Harold Harefoot's reign? Not only was he illegitimate, but that Alf Givu, the other one, as she will always be known, it was actually a cobbler's wife that was the mother. Very good. Well remembered. Question seven.

When Emma's son, Harthacnut, became king in 1040, what did he do to the body of his half-brother, Harold, who had recently been buried? He dug it up and chucked it in the marsh. He did, the harsh marsh. The harsh marsh. Question eight. Upon becoming king,

what did Edward the Confessor do to his terrifying mother? He didn't trust her, so he banished her to Winchester, where he obviously left her enough money to live on, but took away all her riches. You're doing so well. Question nine. Queen Emma was buried next to her second husband, Canute, in which city in Hampshire? Winchester.

And this for a perfect ten. What was the encomium emmae reginiae? That's its Latin name. It was written by a Flanders man in Latin to sort of say that she, Emma, was great, a bit like Octavius, the son of Julius Caesar. Yeah, the nephew of Julius Caesar, but well done. Oh, nephew, beg your pardon. Brilliant, yeah, brilliant, incredible.

Ten out of ten, Joan Bristow. Oh, my goodness, I am so bad at quizzes, but it turns out when you've got it all written down, you can get ten out of ten. You did very, very well. Thank you. And you were giving me Flanders Man and all sorts of extra information. Well done. And listener,

for more consequential context, following on from Emma and Edward the Confessor, you can check out our episode on the Bayer Tapestry, which is a really fun one with Lou Sanders. And for Powerhouse Mums, we've got episodes on Eleanor of Aquitaine and Agrippina the Younger. You don't want to mess with either of those. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast,

please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you you never miss an episode i'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in history corner from the university of york we had the incredible professor elizabeth tyler thank you elizabeth oh thank you for having me it was a blast and i hope emma is now everyone's favorite emperor oops queen and in comedy corner we had the brilliant jen brister thank you jen oh greg thanks for having me i've really enjoyed it it was lovely Oops, queen. And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you, Jen. Oh, Greg, thanks for having me.

I've really enjoyed it. It was lovely. I'm 10 out of 10. You pulled it out of the bag there. I know. Listen, I'm going to be carrying that around with me for the rest of the day. I'm just going to be saying 10 out of 10, Jen. Get it printed on a T-shirt.

Yeah, exactly. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we fetch, or should that be woo, another enticing historical topic. But for now, I'm off to go and grow myself an awesome fork beard. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Josh Rice. It was written by Josh Rice, Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey.

Our production coordinator was Caitlin Hobbs. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Helen Neguse, and our executive editor was Chris Ledgerd. What did it take to be crowned king in medieval Scotland? Well, you had to get your hands on the throne. That was a really dangerous business. And then you had to keep the crown on your head and keep your head on your body.

It was pretty brutal. He has to defend the kingdom against these would-be usurpers. It's a rebellion. If you wanted your family to stay on the throne, you need to be just as effective in the bedroom as on the battlefield. David II has the Henry VIII problem. He's desperate for a kid.

Join me, Len Penny. And me, Susan Morrison, for a new podcast which looks at the ferocious struggles to reign over the medieval kingdom of the Scots. Just dying is not good enough. You need to be punished more. House of the Lion, a blood-soaked throne. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks with a small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. I'm historian Ruth Goodman, host of The Curious History of Your Home. I spent my life investigating the hidden history of everyday objects. A vacuum cleaner in your cupboard.

Sleek and compact today. But when it was invented, it was literally powered by horses and took four to six people to operate. Double-glazed windows? We owe those to a French king's odd fascination with oranges. From award-winning podcasters Noisa, the curious history of your home. you