You're Dead to Me - Emma of Normandy (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: June 21, 2024

Greg Jenner is joined by Professor Elizabeth Tyler and comedian Jen Brister in early medieval England to learn all about Queen Emma of Normandy. Emma was wife to two English kings – Aethelred and Cnut – and mother to two more, Harthacnut and Edward the Confessor. She was a key player in the complex politics of 11th-Century England, and symbolised the overlapping English, Norman and Scandinavian identities at play in England even before the Norman conquest of 1066. This episode traces Emma’s life from her childhood in Normandy, through her marriages to the English Aethelred and Danish Cnut, and into her final years as mother to the king. Along the way, it explores Emma’s political savvy, and the messy family relationships that shaped early medieval English history.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Research by: Josh Rice Written by: Josh Rice, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. It's June 1944 and Europe is in the grip of the Nazi war machine. But on the shores of Great Britain, thousands of men and women are planning the great fight back. This was a really pivotal moment in not only World War II, but world history. Introducing the new podcast D-Day, The Tide Turns. Join me, Paul McGann, each Thursday as we follow the real people involved in the D-Day invasions.

D-Day, The Tide Turns. Available now. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are donning our most glamorous glad rags, fixing our fascinators and attending not one but two royal weddings as we travel all the way back to medieval Europe to meet the magnificent Queen Emma of Normandy. And to help us we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's

Professor of Medieval Literature and the Director of the Centre for Medieval Studies at the University of York. She specialises in the literary culture of England from the 9th to the 12th century. She's particularly interested in medieval English queens. It's Professor Elizabeth Tyler. Welcome, Elizabeth. Hi, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Oh, we're delighted to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer. You'll have seen her on all the TV shows, including Live at the Apollo,

Mock the Week, Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen her on tour or read her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother, about the challenges of parenting. I've got the audio book, it's excellent. It's Jen Brister, welcome to the show, Jen. Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure. I have to do the contractually obligated question with bated breath, do you like history?

I do, actually. I'm intrigued by history. Like when I was young, I was like, oh, what's the point? Why learn about things that have happened? And I'm thinking, maybe we should go back. Let's delve back and see what we can learn from history. Yeah. What about medieval history?

I know zero. Now I did study it. I mean I say study. Do you study when you're at primary school? I did sit in a room while someone talked at me about medieval history. Okay. You know the usual William the Conqueror and the Battle of Hastings and all of that. But I think it really started and ended there.

So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And when I say Emma of Normandy, I think everyone's going to be thinking, Emma who? You've possibly heard of her son son King Edward the Confessor. His death in 1066 led to the little kerfuffle known as the Norman Conquest and the Bayer Tapestry which of course is what our artwork is based on but Emma herself absolute tumbleweed. But who is this fairly unknown medieval English Queen? How did she end up being Queen of England not once but spoiler alert. And what was the dating scene like for royal women in the 11th century?

Let's find out. Let's start with some historical context, because this is complicated stuff. So we often define the medieval period on this show as lasting 1000 years, from the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the Protestant Reformation. When in that thousand years do we find Emma? Where does she pop up? Emma C. She was born probably 985 and died in 1052. And then we're talking here about Normandy. So Jen, what do you know about medieval Normandy? Jen Well, I'm assuming it's France. Is that not what France was known as was Normandy? Am I completely, you're looking at me like no

Dummo. That is not. No judgment. What I love is that you've absolutely picked the right answer, but it's not true. So this is the problem with medieval history. Elizabeth, Normandy, not France. France and Normandy, complicated concepts a thousand years ago. France wasn't France yet. So we need to go about 200 years before Emma's time and look at what Charlemagne did. He had built a huge Frankish empire, which included France and Switzerland, some of Germany, Austria, and Italy, but his descendants couldn't hold it together. And by the time we're looking at Emma, the Carolingian dynasty that had pulled all that

space together was replaced by the Capetians. And they ruled about two thirds of what would become modern France. But it's not France as we know it still. And the king, he wasn't much more than an equal to various counts and dukes. So he had very little power and kind of hung out in Paris. So you say you've watched maybe the last kingdom. Yes, I have. I mean, let's not go to that for life. But do you want to guess how the Vikings might be involved in Normandy?

They invaded Normandy. They held big parties there. Yeah, no. So the first Duke of Normandy, who wasn't actually a Duke yet, the Count of Normandy, was called Rollo. And he invaded in, what, 911? And he steals the land. He and his friends are hanging out there, settling and finally the king, this not very powerful king, cedes him territory and the territory is named Normandy because Rollo was a Nordman, a man from the North. But of course it doesn't work out so smoothly. I mean I could have predicted that. Listen, I would have just met one Viking and not, I'm pretty sure I can't trust you guys to do anything. They didn't look like they played ball. And Rollo is Emma of Normandy's great granddaddy. So that's why we've mentioned him. But Emma's

Scandinavian heritage doesn't just come from her dad, Richard, Count of Normandy, it also comes from her mum. And Emma's primary language would probably have been French, but we think she can also speak Dainut. The transformative event in Emma's young life, Jen, was when she was age 17 and she is married off to quite an important chap, King Ethelred II of England in the year 1002. He is 36, Emma is 17. You're wincing again. Rose. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I'm honking my problematic marriage klaxon. She's 17, she's farmed off to go and marry

the King of England. A very powerful man, Emma's dad had been known as Richard the Fearless. The name that he's given by history is Ethelred the Unready. Have you ever heard that phrase? I've never heard that, but if he's not ready at 36, God help him, he's never going to be ready, is he? Come on, mate, grow up. Where does he get this name from, Elizabeth? So it's a joke. If you say unready, that means ill-advised. But there's a pun there because his name, Athel Rad, means well-advised. Well-advised, the poorly advised. It's an absolute banger, Elizabeth. I'm telling you, in the next special, if you hear that, was

he not considered to be a great king? Yeah, I mean, it all starts out kind of badly. So he's got a half brother, Edward the martyr, who's not a martyr when he starts out. So he's got this half-brother, Edward the Martyr, and Ethelred's ambitious mother bumps him off so that her son, Ethelred, can rule. Ethelred's only ten at the time, so we can't blame him for it, but it kind of hangs like a cloud over his reign. Ethelred comes to power and then he has to face just constant Viking invasions. Yeah. And what he does is he pays them off. He's 10! What's going on? He gets older. He gets older.

I've got two kids who are nine. I can barely get them to pee in the toilet. I'm not expecting them to run a country. What are we talking about here? This is insane. It's quite a long reign actually, but he's just constantly bedeviled by Vikings. England at this time is powerful, Elizabeth. It's wealthy. It's a land of great art and culture, but its recent political history, absolute chaos. What we call England was really made up of four main kingdoms, Wessex and East Anglia and Mercia and Northumbria. And they had been independent and they never forgot this. But the Viking invasions in the mid-800s totally redrew the map. So you end up

in the mid-800s totally redrew the map. So you end up around 900 with just one English king left, and that's Alfred. And that kicks off a whole century where his dynasty is trying to make England into one kingdom. And it's Alfred's famous grandson, Avilstan, who really starts to make that happen. And it's Avilstan who's the first king of the

English. And that's not till 927 and even that falls apart straight away and they've got to try it again. You're looking at a space that's not securely England. That's new. Why is this dynastic match useful to them? Because they both have problems with Vikings in the English Channel. So it's an alliance against the Vikings. We've had Richard the Fearless, we've met Ethelred the Unready, we've now got Emma the Peace Weaver, that's the nickname that we give her. Emma the Peace Weaver. What would you want your nickname to be from outsiders and what do you think would be the honest one you would get?

I think my nickname would be Jenny Agro. Just the aggravated one would probably be my nickname. Well, you seem very chill today. I'm not getting those vibes. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's because I haven't been sold off to some 36 year old bloke in another country. That's fair enough. Okay, so Elizabeth, does Emma, the peace weaver, succeed in her peace weaving mission? Oh, not really. It seems actually she stirs up more trouble. You go girl.

It's alleged that the Danes attacked Exeter in 1003, which was part of her dowry, so it's her city, as a retaliation for those closer relationships between the English and the Normans. So that's not a good start. And then, Ethelred had massacred a whole lot of Danes in 1002. So that raid on Exeter might also have been in retaliation for that. Things get even more complicated now, you won't believe this, but Ethelred's first wife had been called Elfgivu. Ethelred had been married before. And he made Emma change her name to Elfgivu. Elfgivu. It's not as catchy. So his

first wife dies, he's got a second wife, a young wife, Emma. Her name is quite clearly Emma. He's introduced her as Emma. She's very much named Emma. And he's like, you know what? How about Elf-Givu? Elizabeth, Emma has done her duty of marrying Ethel Red, the unready or the not yet ready or the yet to be unready, I don't know whether he's been named yet. And her job, I suppose, is to have children, to have an heir. That's what queens are for. Does she manage this? Does she pop out a prince? Oh, yes, she does. And pretty quickly. So Edward, that's our Edward, the confessor who's going to turn up later, was born sometime between 1003 and 1005. And then she has another son, Alfred. So she's got

two, an heir and a spare and a daughter, God Gifu, gift of God. God Gifu. Oh, that's got a lot to live up to, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, you think you're God's gift. It's not my fault, it's my name. She has an heir and a spare, Emma. They are Alfred and Edward. I guess that gives her a bit more stability and power. Absolutely. She's called Con La Torana Regis, which means she who is at the king's side. We're going to watch out for that because she's learning a lot about how to be king of England, which she's going to teach someone else later. Interesting. Let's just drop that little hint.

So this cosy family scene that we've established, it's disturbed quite dramatically in the year 1013. So if we jump forward 10 years, Jen, we get another surprise Danish invasion. And they don't just trash Exeter this time, they steal the entire kingdom. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Ethelred is booted off the throne. He loses his throne. The new King of England has a fantastic name. He's called Swain Forkbeard. He also has Denmark and Norway. So this is his third kingdom. And guess how long this new mighty Imperial King, Swain Forkbeard, rules England for, Jen? Three years.

Five weeks. Oh! Lys Truss, eat your heart out, my love. Yeah, he drops dead immediately. The crucial question is, Ethelred, he's not been killed. So he's still hanging around. He's still hanging around. Has he done a run-up? Where is Emma? Where are her kids? Where is Ethelred at this point? So Emma and the kids go straight to Normandy and Ethelred follows. And it's hard to know if this was a temporary tactical retreat. I mean, it couldn't have been fun hanging out in Normandy for Ethel Red. But after Svane's sudden death,

the question arises, could he make a comeback? Or is Svane's son, Canute, going to succeed him? You would think with that kind of absolutely apopleptic shame of being knocked off by a fork beard, that you'd be like, listen, I've got to hide under a bin for a couple of months before I come out again and show my face. Does he go, no, I'm going back. So Ethelred does come back, keen to get away from his in-laws, but the Danes have chosen Canute, who's Spain's son. So there's a whole tussle between Canute and Ethelred. And Ethelred comes out on top temporarily in 1014, but then he dies in 1016. Meanwhile, Emma's oldest son, Edward, he's only 11 or

12, so he's got no hope of being the candidate chosen to take on the Danish fleet. And all this time we're not actually sure where Emma is. Is she in London? Is she in Normandy? And what role she played in opposing Cnut. And this then leaves Emma exposed because her husband is dead, her children are threats. She's a threat. So is that something that Cnut is worried about? I've heard of this guy. I've heard of King Cnut. I've got a feeling he's not a guy to be messed with. I'm hoping you're going to tell me, Elizabeth, that Emma goes gun blazing and takes her 12-year-old son and poiks him under her armpit and away they go and takes on King Cnut. Is that what happens?

No, they go off to hide out in Normandy. Oh, what? So Edward and his little brother, Alfred, head off to Normandy. Canute is trouble because what he does is he murders another prince named Eadwig, who's Ethelred's last remaining son with Elf Gifu I. So he's trying to get rid of all these people. What do you think Emma does next, Jen? Her husband is dead. The man who defeated her husband is dead. The son of that man is now the King of England. What do you think she does? Well, I imagine she tries to find an alliance. And maybe she tries

to find an alliance by marrying somebody that could help her get her son on the throne. So who So who does... she doesn't marry Canute does she? She does. What is happening? Oh my goodness, this soap opera is dramatic. She marries Canute. He sounds very rugged. Is this a marriage of, again, I imagine this is a marriage of convenience, but is it also a marriage of anything more?

It doesn't start out that way. She marries Knut and there's two different accounts of that. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle just says very unceremoniously Knut had her fetched to be his bride. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. Indeed. Oh, please. I don't trust them. But later Emma has her own account written about all that went on and she claims that Knute wooed her. But it's also fun, you know, earlier we were kind of squeamish that Emma

was so young when she married the older Ethelred. Now the tables are turned. Knute's a teenager and she's in her thirties. What? She's a cougar. Oh my goodness me. Listen, we can't have double standards, but let's do it anyway. So she's bagged herself a young Nordic man. I mean, look, I don't want to make huge generalisations here, but I'm imagining quite easy to manipulate Elizabeth. Am I right? Well, she's got more power now. She's a woman of the world. She has things to teach him.

Yes, right. Yes. Ethel, whatever his face is gone, bye bye. Oh, so sad. And now she's with the King Cnut. Her second king. Her second king, Yummers. So he's got Norway and Denmark.

And Denmark. And England. So Norway, Denmark and England. This is incredible scenes. She's done so well. We credit her alongside an archbishop called Wulstan with in a way teaching Knut how to be an English king. You have to write law codes, you have to write letters, you have to strike coins, you have to behave in a certain way towards the church. And she's there to help him and to explain it to him in Danish.

So is this a happy relationship? Well there is a slight catch. Oh, okay. Knut, the teenage boy, already married. Wait, sorry, what? Sort of married. Sort of, and also guess what his wife's called. Oh my god, not called Emma, is it?

Elfgivu. Elfi, I thought that was an English name. This is a Northern Elf, a Mercian Elf Gifu. Midlands, yeah, North Midlands. Okay, a Brummie, a Brummie Elf Gifu. Exactly. Right, okay. What's he gaining from that marriage? Well, so he's coming into England from the Trent, so having a power base in the North

Midlands is really important to him. And they have two sons, Svein, another Svein, and Harald. But Elf Gifu doesn't have the same political cache that Emma has. And so since 1017, Canute sidelines Gifu in order to marry Emma. But he doesn't set her aside. She's not repudiated. And in fact, in 1030, she's sent with her son Svane to rule in Norway. She's never consecrated queen, whereas Emma is consecrated queen. That makes her top wife. They are married until 1035, nearly 20 years. And Knut's death in 1035 leads to yet more contenders scrabbling for the throne. So there's no peaceful

handover of power here, Jen. Wow, she's outliving a lot of these men. I mean, men don't live long in medieval England, do they? So the wannabes in waiting, Elizabeth, who have we got? You mentioned Harold. Is that Harold Harefoot? Yeah, but we forgot to talk about Emma and Canute's son. Oh, of course. Yes. Part of the reason she and Canute are so happy is they've had a son called Har the Canute. They've got half a Canute floating around as well. And then you've got Harold in Spain.

But you've also got Edward and Alfred. So, you know, when Canute dies, it's absolute chaos and slaughter of the would-be kings. I mean, look, do we all get to a point where we go, do you know what? I mean, do you want to be king? When it just means that you're probably going to be dead in five weeks. I don't know if you've seen what happens to these other guys. I feel the same, but they do seem determined to be king. They're desperate, aren't they? All right, so talk us through the slaughter, Elizabeth. Who survives this bloodthirsty battle royal? Elizabeth, who survives this bloodthirsty battle royale? Elizabeth Hodge First, you get Harold on the throne. That's

Canute's second son with Elf Gifu of Northampton. Emma Cunningham Oh, right. Sorry. Elizabeth Hodge Right. So an Elf Gifu returns from Norway in order to back her son. Meanwhile, Emma is backing her son, Har the Canute, but he's off in Denmark. So Harold comes out on top at this stage. Emma is totally stressed and buggers off to Flanders to get out of the way. Right. I don't blame her. But she's really rooting for Har the Canute to return. She circulates all sorts of rumors about Harold

not being the true son of Elf Gifu and Canute, but instead a bastard born to a serving maid. Oh. Kill her. And that the father is a humble cobbler. So these rumors are like, not only is he not Canute's son, he's not even Elf Gifu's son. So what does Elf Gifu do at this point? She must be like, how dare you speak about my

son that way? Yeah. She didn't leave us an account, but it's really interesting, this use of slander and gossip. But we're still not done. We're still not through the chaos, sorry. Some sources say that Emma plotted against Alfred and Edward too, that she lures them back to England, her own boys, in order to have them disposed of in favor of Har the Canute. Why? Edward and Alfred did land in southern England in 1036 with an army of mercenaries hoping to claim the throne, But Alfred soon was captured in

Guildford blinded and he ended up dead in Ely. How did he get from Guildford to Ely? That's what I want to know. So far. So Emma blames Harold, Harold blames Emma, and then there's a guy named Godwin who gets a lot of flack for it as well. Who knows? What is her motivation for trying to dispose of her two firstborn sons? She really wants Har the Canute on the throne and it's not clear. She claims that she didn't lure them back. But she spends a lot of energy claiming she didn't lure them back, which makes you think... She does protest too much.

Is this counter gossip? Is this retaliation for her spreading the gossip about the other guy being the son of a servant girl or whatever it is or a cobbler? I mean, I could get Elf Givun luring these young men across to have them murdered, but if your own, like it just, I don't know, it just feels like it goes against the instinct of any mother to murder your own children. Yeah. It's just wild. So Alfred is blinded and dies of his injuries later.

Poor Alfred. Edward survives and will become Edward the Confessor. And Harold, Harold Harefoot, Harthacanute are still squabbling out. So, but Harold has taken the throne. Yes. But Harthacanute is going, I'm going to take it from you. Yeah, but it takes a long time to come back from Denmark is the problem. But he does come back and Harold Harefoot dies and Harth Canute becomes king

and he digs up Harold's body from his grave and has it thrown in the marsh. Oh, wow. That's so petty. Harsh in the marsh. Harsh in the marsh. How many weeks later was this Elizabeth? Was it five weeks? No, this was 1041. We're a bit further down the line. So Harold dies at 1041 from disease, general medievalness. You've got better maths than I do. So we're left now with either Edward the Confessor and Arthur Cnut. That's right. And so who now is Emma rooting for? Well, Emma, two of her sons, Hyde Canute's on the throne, but it seems that Hyde Canute is not

well. And Emma persuades him to invite Edward back to co-rule with him. So you have Hyde Canute and Edward as co-kings. At this point, is Edward going, mom, you already asked me across once and it didn't bode well for Alfred. You know what? I think I'm going to swerve this and I'm going to stay where I am, if that's okay. Or does he go, no, you're my mom and I trust you? Yeah. He definitely doesn't trust her, but he does come back and Heather Canute and Edward rule together. But if you look at what Emma has to say about it, Heather Canute, Edward and Emma rule together. Oh, okay. Mum's getting involved.

Yep. She sounds like one of those mums that will be always involved. You're not marrying her are you? And we end up with Edward the Confessor becoming king. I know we're going to talk about this in the nuance window, but just where do we get our sources from? Is it the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle? Anything else that's a vital source we need to know about? There's later 11th and 12th century writers. But the text that we've been talking about that's been lurking behind is a text called the Encomium Emma Regina, which just means, that sounds very fancy, it just means in praise of Queen Emma.

It's a story about Svein Canute and Hither Canute from her perspective. And she got someone in from the outside, Flanders to write it. And it's full of really wild lies, including that Edward is Canute's son. Okay. Which nobody believed, especially Edward. So we don't even necessarily believe that this was a wild romance between her and Canute either. Yeah.

That's her story. It's a great story. I mean, we've praised Emma's political operating skills, but the sad end of the story is that Edward is terrified of her and acts against her. As soon as he comes to power, he shuts her down, doesn't he, Elizabeth? Absolutely. He takes away her treasure the whole bit. She is totally sidelined. So what happens to Emma then? Where does she end up? She's retired to Winchester. So she's poor and she's living in Winchester.

Not poor. She's not poor, but she doesn't have the wild amounts of treasure that she thinks would be appropriate to her status. And she's there tending Knute's grave. She dies in 1052 and is buried next to Knute. She did so much to make sure that whatever the reality was, everyone believed that they had this love match. That was really important to her, that whatever the reality was, everyone believed that they had this love match. That was really important to her, even to the point where she wanted to be buried next to him.

So, I mean, she's quite the woman, really. I'm kind of amazed that I never heard of her. Never heard of her. The New On The nuance window! This is where Jen and I learn how to spell Elf-Givu. It's got a lot more vowels than you think. And we give two minutes to Professor Elizabeth to tell us something we need to know about Emma of Normandy. Elizabeth,

without much further ado, take it away please. So what I'm going to talk about is how Emma's political power is presented in that encomium that we've been talking about, that account of Svein Knute and Harthac Knute, that she had commissioned to protect her interests when it all fell apart. And we've been worrying that this has all been about the men in Emma's life and not about her. And this was on her mind too, and she had something to say about it.

At the end of the Encomium, she's depicted as co-ruling with Har the Canute and Edward, not behind the scenes. And indeed, if you look at the illustration that comes at the beginning of the Encomium, it is Emma sitting on the throne and Har the Canute and Edward peeking out from behind a curtain.

But it gets better. The monk who wrote the Encomium was really learned and his history is partly based on Virgil's Aeneid. Emma can't read Latin but doesn't mean she doesn't know the stories that are in Latin text. The Encomium parallels Canute to the mythical Aeneas who sailed across the Mediterranean to found Rome from the ruins of Troy way back in the midst of time. The Encomium also compares Canute to Julius Caesar who conquered Gaul, made it to Britain, defeated Antony and Cleopatra, but ended up murdered by Brutus. But in all of this it's Emma who was the survivor and she's not left out of this Aeneid business. The Encomist compares her to

Octavian, that is Augustus, the first Roman Emperor and the man Virgil wrote for. While dead Canute and dying Canute were all in the past, she was the present and the future. And all this is really interesting take. It's Emma's take on what it meant to be a wife and mother of kings. And it definitely wasn't about being the power behind the throne. The Encomiest wasn't bound by gender roles in imagining her power. Emma is mother and emperor. Fantastic. Thank you, Elizabeth. I think it's interesting that a woman of such influence has been forgotten. So thank you

for talking about her and bringing her up. It's fantastic. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner from the University of York. We had the incredible Professor Elizabeth Tyler. Thank you, Elizabeth. Oh, thank you for having me. It was a blast. And in Comedy Corner, we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you, Jen. Oh, Greg, thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed it. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we fetch, or should that be woo, another enticing historical topic. But for now I'm off to go and grow myself

an awesome fork beard. Bye! This is a story about one of Britain's most revered institutions. And the theft of ancient treasures that were sold around the world. It felt like a real punch to the stomach. My God, things are being stolen from our museum.

I'm Katie Razzle, and from BBC Radio 4, this is Thief at the British Museum. At the heart of our tale is an antiquities dealer turned amateur detective thrown into the center of a global scandal. I was shocked. I remember that, I think my hair stood on end. Search for Shadow World. Thief at the British Museum on BBC Sounds. It's June 1944 and Europe is in the grip of the Nazi war machine.

But on the shores of Great Britain, thousands of men and women are planning the great fight back. This was a really pivotal moment in not only World War II, but world history. Introducing the new podcast D-Day, The Tide Turns. Join me, Paul McGann, each Thursday as we follow the real people involved in the D-Day invasions. D-Day, The Tide Turns. Available now.