You're Dead to Me - Frederick Douglass

Episode Date: March 10, 2023

Greg Jenner is joined by guests Prof Emily Bernard and comedian Toussaint Douglass in 19th century America to meet the remarkable Frederick Douglass. From heartbreaking beginnings, Frederick fought on to become a famed abolitionist, orator, writer and statesman who broke racial barriers in government and dedicated his life to fighting for the freedom of all people. Research by Anna-Nadine Pike and Jess White Written by Emma Nagouse, Anna-Nadine Pike and Greg Jenner Produced by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Assistant Producer: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow Project Management: Isla Matthews Audio Producer: Steve HankeyYou’re Dead To Me is a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4.

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are journeying back to 19th century America to learn all about a man who escaped enslavement to become a visionary abolitionist, orator and writer, Frederick Douglass.

And to help me do that, I am joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, she's a cultural historian and literary scholar at the University of Vermont, where she is the Julian Lindsay Green and Gold Professor of English and an Andrew Carnegie Fellow. You may have read her wonderful book, Black is the Body, stories from my grandmother's time, my mother's time and mine, which won the 2020 LA Times Prize for autobiographical prose. And you'll certainly remember her from our episode on the Harlem LA Times Prize for autobiographical prose. And you'll certainly remember her from our episode on the Harlem Renaissance, one of my faves. It's Professor Emily Bernard. Welcome back, Emily. Hello. And in Comedy Corner, he's an award-winning,

rising star of stand-up and comedy writing. You may have seen him on BBC Three's Stand Up for Live Comedy or in loads of Dave TV shows like Outsiders, Hypothetical, Question Team or Late Night Mash. It's Toussaint Douglas. Welcome, Toussaint. Hi, thanks so much for having me. First time on the show. I know that you like current affairs. I've seen plenty of current affairs stuff on your sort of Insta and online. But where do you stand on history? Are you a fan? I'm actually a massive history fan. Yeah, it was probably my favourite subject in school.

I actually studied uni politics and American history. So I don't know if I'm setting myself up for failure here in terms of how much I remember. I need to really caveat that I don't remember a lot, but no, I'm really big into history. My favourite teacher at school said, if you don't learn from the past, how can we build for the future? And I thought that was an absolute line. So yeah, big on the history love it all right and you are a douglas yourself in fact douglas with a double s at the end indeed yes does that mean that you you know all about him are you a familiar with frederick douglas i mean hey maybe we're related who knows you know i mean who could he's in my top three douglases that i'd like to be related to it's him

kirk douglas who doesn't like like Spartacus, and then Michael Douglas. There's not that many Douglases, to be fair, but it's those three I would love to be related to, yeah, for sure. So, what do you know? Right, we start, as ever,

with a So What Do You Know? This is where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. I'm certain our American listeners are currently shouting at their phones and radio saying, it's Frederick Douglass, he's an icon. What are you talking about?

We all know who he is. Even Donald Trump knew who he was, sort of. He wasn't sure if he was alive or dead, classic Trump. But in the UK, I suspect Douglass is perhaps less well-known, and that's maybe due to the surprising lack of pop culture projects. We don't have a movie about him or a biopic or a big drama series. There's been some TV where he features. The Good Lord Bird was a novel that became a drama in 2020. He was briefly in the ITV drama

about Queen Victoria. He's in YouTube's Epic Rap Battles from History. Not really a sort of renowned historical document, but you know, it's fun to watch. There's an American musical called American Prophet based on his speeches and writings. But that's kind of it for Frederick Douglass, which is surprising because he is a huge giant of the 19th century. So what do we need to know about him? Let's find out, shall we? So we start as ever with childhood and Emily, really, maybe this is proving my point, actually. Our story starts as a horror movie because Frederick Douglass is born enslaved, which is such a cruel, cruel way to enter life as a child. So where is he born and when and what is his origin story?

He was born in Talbot County, Maryland. His birth details are unclear, but a ledger kept by his first enslaver listed him as being born in Feb 1818. Douglas's mother, Harriet, was enslaved, so Douglas was born enslaved too. Actually, Douglas wasn't his name yet. He was Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey, Bailey being Harriet's maiden name. His biological father was possibly his first slave master, Aaron Anthony. Frederick was a fourth of six children. Sadly, Frederick was separated from his mother as an infant and lived with his siblings and maternal grandmother, Betty Bailey.

He was only with her for a short amount of time before being sent to the Y House plantation. We also know from his autobiography, his mother died when he was seven. Yeah, it's really sad, too, Sam. I mean, obviously, we're a comedy show, but there's no laughs here. There is something. Yeah, it's really sad, Toussaint. I mean, you know, obviously we're a comedy show, but like there's no laughs here. There is something quite interesting because later in life,

he didn't know when his birthday was. Frederick Douglass chose his birthday. He knew he was born in February. Can you guess which day of February he decided would be his birthday? I would say he seems like, you know, maybe he was a bit of a romantic guy, Greg. I don't know.

Maybe he had a bit of a softer side. Maybe he was picking the most famous day in February, perhaps the 14th of February, Valentine's Day. That could be it. I don't know. You're absolutely spot on. No, are you kidding me? That's exactly what he does.

Unbelievable. I must be related to Frederick Douglass. There's an affinity there. I could feel it. Feeling the connection. Yeah, it's a rather beautiful story. His mother, Harriet, had apparently called him her little Valentine. So he did it in tribute to her. So yeah, he decides that he's a Valentine's baby. And we have three autobiographies written by him,

Emily. So we know a lot about Frederick Douglass from his own perspective. So what else do we know about his youth from his books? In an early traumatic experience which forever haunted him, he witnessed his Aunt Hester being whipped by his first slave master for visiting a lover. This was when he first realised how cruel slave owners could be. In 1826, aged only six, Frederick was sent to Baltimore to serve as an enslaved playmate for Sophia and Huw Ald's toddler. This became a formative time because Sophia Ald taught Frederick to read. It's a really weird story that basically he's enslaved and yet he's been sent off to go and entertain a child. He is a child. He's six. But Sophia teaches him to read, which is also

weird. I'm surprised by that. What's your take on that? The first thing that struck me was like, can't these kids get some friends of their own? Like, I mean, are they that kind of like weird that they can't just like go out and make friends? Or that they need to bring in this kid to like be forced to be friends with them? I guess also, even in really messed up situations,

there's bits of humanity in there. And I guess that act of, you know, that person, for whatever reason, we can't, we don't know personally, we'd be able to deduce that she wanted to teach them how to read this in some degree. That objectively is quite a nice thing in that respect, in that context. That's a really interesting point. And Emily, Sophia is a complicated character in the way that Douglas remembers her later on, because there is a sort of maternal warmth early on, and then it changes. Sophia Auld radically changes throughout the narrative. In Douglas's autobiography, she begins as a good-hearted woman who has never owned a slave before, and instinctively teaches

this clever little boy as a mother would. But her husband, Hugh, finds out and yells at her, boy as a mother would. But her husband Hugh finds out and yells at her, saying it's dangerous to educate slaves. Soon she learns cruelty like all the others. Douglas never misses a chance in his writing to point out how absolute power corrupts absolutely, how the institution of slavery degrades white people as well as black people. I mean, that's a real, that's a horrible story. She starts out as a fairly kind person and then ends up as cruel as the rest. And how does Frederick develop that skill? Because he gets basic education from Sophia, but he doesn't learn all of the kind of lessons you need to be a great writer. So how does he develop that writing skill? He constantly practices wherever he can. He even tricked little

white boys into teaching him to read by bribing them with bread. Age 13, Frederick is fully literate and has earned enough money to buy a dictionary and a book of speeches called The Columbian Orator, which helps him develop ideas about freedom, abolition and speech making. He also shares his knowledge with others, teaching basic literacy to his fellow enslaved people. Already, he's a kid teaching other kids, Toussaint. Paying for reading lessons with bread, that's like incredible, right? That strikes me as someone who even at that young age clearly kind of has a real desire for learning. Already valuing what education can do for someone. I think, you know, as kids generally we like to learn, we love school and stuff like that. But I don't think as a kid I was like i had a full kind of cognizant understanding of like how important education

could be but obviously in his context and he kind of understood that actually education is incredibly important i think it's an incredible demonstration of ingenuity there in itself he's paying for reading this with bread with bread and also just self-restraint like if there's bread in front of me I can't not eat it you know I mean like there's no way I'm giving it to anyone else like especially if there's butter there like game over I'd be illiterate I just wouldn't be able to read so I'm blown away by just how kind of impressive at that stage the young Frederick Douglass is yeah we then get to a really horrible point of his life. This is the real horrific axis. This is a turning point for him. We do have to tell this story, although we are

a comedy show. This is the Edward Covey episode, Emily, and let's hear the story, please. Hewold thought Frederick was becoming difficult to manage and sent him to Edward Covey, known as a slave-breaker, who viciously whipped and beat him for months. Frederick was broken, both physically and mentally, but he resolved to resist and fight back. It was a huge turning point in his life. He said, you have seen how a man was made a slave. Now you shall see how a slave is made a man. Covey never dared to hurt him again and Frederick later wrote, it revived within me a sense of my manhood. It recalled the departed self-confidence and inspired me again with a determination to be free. Frederick returned to Hugh Auld's property with a new defiance and by

the age of 16 he had taught about 40 other black people to read, starting a kind of Christian Saturday school for other enslaved people. read, starting a kind of Christian Saturday school for other enslaved people. Yeah, I mean, that takes incredible courage, Toussaint. I mean, you know, he's nearly beaten to death and then decides, you know what, I'm not standing for it. And he stands up to Covey, who never touches him again. I mean, incredible bravery. I think it's just, you know, it's unimaginable. It's hard to kind of get your head around, you know, I think sometimes you hear people say maybe like oh why didn't they just rise up you know you know people who were enslaved and stuff like that and

without any kind of real understanding of just the unimaginable brutality of it of slavery and the things that were in place to really put people down to break them physically you know the cruelty of it and for someone to find a way to channel that kind of inner strength and courage to put their basically their life on the line to stand up for for themselves and their humanity like that's it's just an it's an incredible thing to bear witness to in his writings you know about that he was he you know he triumphed in that respect and you know that wasn't the case for a lot of black people at that time who tried that. So there is an element of kind of exceptionalism to it.

But it is an inspiring thing. You're right. He is an exceptional man in a lot of ways. And to teach 40 other black people to read and write is an amazing thing to pass on as well. But in not remotely surprising news, in 1838, when he's about 20 years old, Frederick decides he's going to escape for obvious reasons. And how is he going to do this, Emily? How is he going to get out from this cruel situation he's in? He was determined to join other escapees, including his Aunt Jenny and Uncle Noah and the Free North.

Having failed one escape already, he was aided by Anna Murray, a free black woman who worked as a maid. She paid for his journey. He traveled by railroad, disguised as a sailor with papers, and although he was nearly caught, he managed to get from Baltimore to Pennsylvania. Anna and Frederick got married in September 1838, initially taking the new surname Johnson, but then opting for Douglas upon moving to New Bedford, Massachusetts in 1841. It was common to change names to avoid recapture. He chose Douglas after the character James Douglas in Walter Scott's narrative poem, The Lady of the Lake, who was basing his new identity on Scottish romantic history. Wow. He changes his name to Johnson initially, so he's Frederick Johnson for a bit. And then he's like, no, that's not quite right.

I'm going to be Frederick Douglas. Changing your name is a huge deal for many black people at this time, particularly those who have escaped from enslavement. Obviously, it protects them, Emily, but also, there must be consequences in other ways, right? Yes, it helps to protect a person from being recaptured, but it also cuts them off from their family. Yeah, and that's

tough, Toussaint. But I suppose there is a tiny sliver of beauty in the fact that he gets to choose his name. And the thing that he chooses is a, it comes from passion, comes from a love of literature. He turns to Scottish poetry, Scottish, you know, storytelling. Yeah, yeah, sure. And, you know, when Emily was kind of recounting that, you know, how he escaped, you know, in my head, I'm seeing a thriller there. I'm seeing a kind of Leonardo DiCaprio, catch me if you can kind of scenario where he a kind of leonardo dicaprio catch me if

you can kind of scenario where he's kind of changing his identity do you know what i mean he's yeah he turns into a sailor i mean that's i wouldn't have any idea how to blag being a sailor you know i mean i'd get found out straight away i'd be like people like go to starboard and like starboard where the hell is starport i'll be like yeah don't worry i'm at the helm no you're not meant to be yeah i'd have no idea but this he blagged it exceptionally so obviously someone who's incredibly resourceful right at that time under what i imagine is immense pressure you know his life just contains so much right so much kind of drama to it his ticket was paid for by anna murray who he then marries so it's kind of fascinating that she's sprung him from this

horrific life, and then they get married. So they're not even engaged beforehand. It's kind of, you know, that's a really interesting story. So by 1841, Frederick Douglass, as he's now called, he's working as a labourer. And you say, you know, you wouldn't be able to mug it as a sailor. Actually, he done quite

a lot of work on the wharves and the shipping. He sort of knows some of the lingo. He's working on the wharves, but he's also becoming an abolitionist. He's making speeches. He becomes a preacher. He's hired by quite a famous white abolitionist called William Lloyd Garrison, who basically says, hey, you're really good at talking. Come lecture tour with me.

We'll go around America or wherever. We're going to talks about how bad slavery is, how evil it is. So that's where he's learning speechmaking. But he's also, he's going to start writing, Emily. He's pretty nifty with a nib, right? Yes. In 1845, he published his first autobiography, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave.

It deals with his early experiences. Part of his motivation is that his gifts for preaching and speechmaking were so remarkable that some audiences refused to believe he'd escaped slavery. They said he spoke too well and must be playing the role. So the narrative was about proving his backstory. Wow. OK, so it's called The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave, to say, yeah, I was a slave. Yes, I was enslaved. I'm not an actor actor playing a role which is such a weird thing to have to say when you've lived through that tucson yeah i mean it's having to come up against that

kind of condescension right that almost you're you're too brilliant as a black person you can't be that intelligent and that articulate and not to that you know i'm sure nowhere near to that extent that he faced but we you know people we, people, we, we encountered that now, you know, I've, I've got that. So the way you talk, oh, you, you, you talk very well.

And it's just, well, I'm just talking, you know, I'm just, I'm just saying words like you're saying words. There's no real difference in that respect. So the fact that he then went to the lengths of writing a book to disprove it.

I mean, that again, I wouldn't go to that length. So I've been saying, I've been writing a book for years and I've not got around to to it even at the pandemic I think most of us have yeah I'll write the book I've got two years to write oh god you know so he went and did it again just yeah really impressive and stuff like that you know and at uni I read I read the the narrative that was one of the texts we had to read yeah I can't remember too much of it but I remember at the time

being really impressed and stuff and obviously you know you've got Prince Harry's spare but this was the original Watson or autobiography and this was this was the real one. There are other stories out there there's people like Henry Box Brown who who told his story of escaping by hiding inside a box and being traveled across 350 miles I mean there's Ellen and William Craft who managed to sort of escape and very cleverly do so. There are other stories being told, but his story is really very powerful. And what's interesting is that he's not just telling it in America. In 1845, he's going to go somewhere else.

Do you know where he goes, Toussaint? I think I do know this one, yeah. He actually comes to good old Blighty. He does. He hops on a ship and he comes to a tour of the UK and Ireland. Starts in Ireland, in fact. What's the plan here, Emily? Why is he leaving America? Is it a safety thing? Douglas fears being recaptured of his days in America, so he leaves in August 1845.

William Lloyd Garrison sends him to Britain and Ireland, where Douglas shocks crowds with its personal testimony, but also with much broader moral critiques of slavery. He starts in Dublin, Ireland, then travels through Scotland, home of Walter Scott, who inspired his name, and finally onto England. The narrative sells very well, going into nine editions between 1845 and 1847, and the royalties pay his way while he's staying with friendly abolitionists. And yeah, when we say narrative, here we mean Douglas' first autobiography called The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass. So he's here for two years doing Ireland, Scotland, England.

I don't know if he does Wales, I'm not sure, but he actually quite likes the UK and Ireland. He feels he's got more freedom here and more respect. Obviously, still racism in the UK at this time, but I guess better than the USA at that point. And his debut gig in August 1845 is in Dublin Tucson do you know what subject he chooses to speak on oh that that's a good question Greg I mean he's been booked by the American Anti-Slavery League so yeah yeah yeah I know I mean it'd be wild if I didn't say slavery right it'd be wild if I said something like baking like he's just really into cakes he just really wanted to talk about his passion like i'm gonna say slavery it's a very sensible guess but no he starts with temperance okay basically chuck

your pints down the sink lads i imagine that didn't go down very well i mean emily why is this renowned speaker why is he speaking about temperance douglas was a long-term advocate for women's suffrage and temperance was associated with reducing domestic violence he also spoke out against poverty in Ireland, and in Bristol he addressed political slavery in England, particularly speaking on practices in the army and navy and on class inequality. Anti-slavery remained closest to his heart, but there was a limit to how much support he gave to other movements. Having been friends, he and William Lloyd Garrison fell out over differences in their abolitionist politics. He also found allies among the Chartists, a political reform movement in England, but it

wasn't easy when they kept equating black slavery in America with the white slaves of an underpaid British workforce. Even worse, later in 1868, the women's suffrage movement in America started using racist rhetoric and even accepted funding from white supremacist groups. So Douglass withdrew his support. Yeah, I bet he did. So he's got a huge intellectual heft. He's clearly a very talented orator. His tour is attracting huge crowds, Toussaint. A lecture he gives in Essex in 1847 is so hectic,

people are huddled outside the venue trying to listen in through the window, which I'm assuming is standard for one of your gigs on a Tuesday night, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, Greg. Gosh, they're queuing around the block to see me gosh but no I mean can you can you blame the people of Essex at that time I mean this guy is a rock star right this guy is coming from America he's got the chat you know he's got the backstory you know he's a celebrity do you know what I mean and also can we just appreciate how good looking he is like I know this is a predominantly do you know what I mean and also can we just appreciate how good looking he is like I know this is a predominantly audio medium but if you're listening to this right now please take a brief moment to google Frederick Douglass and you won't be disappointed this guy

is a hunk all right okay this this guy is a 19th century beefcake all right do you mean he's a very good looking guy right there you know there's one photo I think the kind of iconic photo, he's a very good looking guy right there. You know, there's one photo, I think the kind of iconic photo where he's literally doing kind of what I would say is the prototype blue steel. You know, the original kind of blue steel straight staring into camera there. But I don't think it's any surprise that his kind of rise and prominence coincided with the advent of photography as well. I don't know when photography kind of became invented, but things round out that same time. And he was one of the most kind of the most photographed people of the 19th century. You're spot on. He's the most photographed man of the...

In fact, the most photographed American of the entire 19th century. More than Lincoln, Custer, all of your most famous celebs. 160 photos he poses for. Guy loved the camera. The camera loved him. He really did. He loved the camera. And we'll get to the photography stuff later on, actually, in the episode, because it becomes a big deal for him. One thing you might not know so much about Frederick Douglass,

this has been an argument made by the scholar Granville Ganser, is Frederick Douglass was funny. Right. Okay. Like really funny, like a master of comedy. I mean, Emily, what kind of comedy is he doing? I mean, I'm using comedy carefully, but he's using humor, right? In his lectures. Interestingly, Douglass uses shock humor. He did this through imitation and sending up stereotypes, which entertained white audiences while also forcing them to confront their own internalized prejudices. Douglass strongly

disliked racist minstrel humor, but exploited audience familiarity with it when performing his own subverted versions. For example, his early lectures within the Massachusetts abolition movement involved dialogues between a quote-unquote lazy slave called Sambo and a southern white master. In turns, an audience would laugh at the slave, identifying with the master, and then laugh at the master, identifying with the slave. He also played on stereotypes of quote-unquote primitive Africa. Douglass was able to evoke different kinds of laughter, perhaps the familiar and the disarming. The distance between the broad caricature of this uneducated slave character and the reality of hyper eloquent Douglass himself forced audiences to rethink their

homogenization of enslaved people. Yeah, I mean, Toussaint, as our comedy expert in the room, that's pretty sophisticated material, right? To be doing character comedy that forces an audience to sympathize and then go, hang on a minute, who am I laughing at? Yeah, 100%. I mean, trying comedy in any situation is fraught with peril. Are the audience going to like it? You know, that kind of thing but to do it in those situations where he's trying to convey obviously a really important message as well and realizing that humor can play a part in that because you know it kind of humor comedy it kind of loosens you up right you're not really expecting that kind of serious message it opens you up a little bit more and you can be more receptive to kind of things which maybe you might have been a

bit more closed off to if you're a bit defensive and stuff like that so I think it's quite um shrewd of him I think to to use comedy in that respect and stuff like that for sure and obviously he's subverting it as well so he's understanding the comedic kind of tropes and trends of the day and he's using it and he's subverting those as well which shows a real kind of sophisticated understanding of comedy as well chip off the old block I am, clearly. I mean, you are a comedian and you are particularly interested in politics and so on, which is fascinating. And Douglas also is using comedy sometimes in very political ways.

There is the Scottish Free Church who raise funds in the American South, in the slave states. And Douglas is like, what are you doing? And he, I mean, a kind of a slogan arises at his gigs. I mean, I'm using the word gigs here, Emily, but like at his performances, he's saying, send back the money. That's the slogan that people are chanting, putting on placards. So he's using his voice to push back against religion as well, isn't he, Emily? He is. Douglass worked this into his performances,

acting at a scene where a free church leader turns up at Thomas Auld's, his former slave master, at Thomas Auld's house for donations, and Douglass is himself sold to raise funds for the cause. His performances seem to balance spontaneous laughter with introspection, forcing audiences to consider why they were laughing and who they were sympathising with. After one lecture, a woman audience member wrote a letter to Douglas saying that slavery was too serious a subject to make fun of. She had spent the night doubled over laughing

in spite of herself. So it's like your point really, Tussauds, that she was like, this is a serious, this is very funny. Okay, fair enough. So he's clearly, he's an extraordinary orator to be able to get crowds to laugh while talking about such strong subjects. And getting people to boycott a church, also pretty tough. Like, that's hard. So, I mean, the trip to the UK and Ireland, obviously highly successful, professionally built his brand. As you say, Toussaint, he's becoming a celebrity. But it's also, it's life changing for him, Emily, isn't it?

Because actually, some of the friends he meets are going to do something for him. He hasn't asked them to do it, but they're going to do it anyway. In 1847, while staying at Newcastle, Douglas befriended the Quaker sisters-in-law, Anna and Ellen Richardson, and they negotiated to legally buy his freedom from Hugh Auld. They did this without involving Douglass. And some abolitionists objected, arguing that paying for freedom reinforced the legitimacy of the system and damaged Douglass's reputation as a campaigner. But for Douglass, it meant he could tour America without legally being recaptured. He was grateful to his friends and frustrated by the abolitionist politics, but he was free at last. Yeah, it's amazing. So these two women decided to buy his

freedom so he can return home to his wife and kids. And when I say kids, we've got Anna, the wife, but how many children do they have? Five. Anna had been single-handedly looking after their five kids all on a lowly maid's wage for two years. She often gets under-emphasized in Frederick's story, but she first helped him escape from Maryland and then is an absolute rock when he's in the UK. At this point, they move to Rochester, New York. Using money donated by his British supporters, Douglass also founds his own newspaper called the North Star. In 1851, this newspaper is renamed Frederick Douglass's Paper. I think the ego is getting to him at that point isn't it my name's not on this enough actually i need to just make it clear to everyone this is my

paper all right okay so the north star is the kind of the launch paper it becomes the frederick douglas's paper which is is pretty good and i'm assuming to someone you have never launched your own newspaper but if you did full of cutting-edge political insight oh yeah 100 it'd be proper broadsheet stuff thick you're talking 400 pages you wouldn't be able to get through it in a sunday do you know i mean we're really intellectuals in no way would it be a tabloid at all sidoku's on every page excellent yeah all right so emily the north Star focuses on publishing letters, doesn't it? I mean, it's trying to give a voice to people in the community, right? Yes, it focuses on publishing letters by black readers, while also speaking out on racial

injustice. Interestingly, by 1848, the paper had five times as many white subscribers as black. It allowed Douglass to maintain contact with an international audience. And he continued to write articles addressed to my British anti-slavery friends. Douglass also engaged with British literary culture by serialising Charles Dickens' Bleak House in 1852 to 1853. And 1852 is a key year as well, because it's also when he gives an incredibly famous speech. What's the speech called, Emily? And do you want to give us a little bit, please? It's called The Meaning of July 4th for the Negro. Here he made a comparison between America freeing itself from British rule and the concept of slavery. But he also described the inhuman mockery and sacrilegious irony of

asking a formerly enslaved man to speak about liberation. It's an incredibly powerful speech. I have a section here to read. What to the American slave is your 4th of July? I answer, a day that reveals to him more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is a constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham, your boasted liberty an unholy license, your national greatness swelling vanity, your sound of rejoicing are empty and heartless, your denunciation of tyrants

brass-fronted impudence, your shout of liberty and equality hollow mockery, your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings with all your religious parade and solemnity are to him mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy, a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States at this very hour. Yeah, that's beautifully read. Thank you. I mean, that's an excerpt of the speech. But I mean, Toussaint, he's not pulling his punches, is he? I mean, no. I'd be subtle to see what he's saying. I think he's very clear. The takeaway is, you know, you're all hypocrites, massive hypocrites. And I'm here to tell you that. But I think, yeah,

I mean, for me, you know, he's like kind of all the greatest orators you know like he's able to kind of conjure up a very incredibly persuasive reimagining of like an existing kind of foundational text i think in this case it was like the constitution right where he's actually kind of saying actually the constitution it can be like an anti it's an anti-slavery text it's it's a it's a it can be a platform for actually kind of getting rid of slavery and stuff like that and kind of using it against them almost in a way you know in that respect absolutely we then get another autobiography my bondage and my freedom in 1855 so he's returning to his life story for a second time and then he visits britain again because you know he loves fish and chips, maybe. Loves the tea. He loves the tea. And then in 1861, we get the American Civil War, which is an enormous moment. And this is really where Douglass finds, well, doesn't find his voice, but this is where his

voice has real political influence because he, well, he has this famous relationship with Lincoln. So how does this come about, Emily? Douglass began recruiting black soldiers to fight for the North, including two new regiments, but the men weren't getting equal pay to whites. And when they were captured in battle, they were tortured, murdered or enslaved by the Confederates. Douglas was enraged and traveled to Washington, D.C. to personally petition President Lincoln. To his credit, Lincoln immediately welcomed the men. They didn't agree on everything, but Lincoln was convinced by Douglass's passionate oratory to issue his famed Emancipation Proclamation of January 1863, which freed all enslaved people in slaveholding states, though not border states, and saw 200,000 Black

men joining up to fight, including two of Frederick's sons. The Lincoln and Douglass friendship wasn't straightforward. Douglas publicly criticized Lincoln's hesitancy in abolishing slavery, but there was mutual respect. When Lincoln was assassinated in 1865, his wife, Mary Todd Lincoln, actually sent his favorite walking stick to Douglas as testament to their connection. I mean, it's just fascinating, right? Isn't it? You know, this is someone who has come from slavery as a kid, taught himself kind of how to read, and then is now hobnobbing it with presidents. And it's seen by this person as an equivalent, as a political kind of equal, almost in many respects, is respected by this person, which I think tells you a lot about who he was, I think his stature at that time, what he had achieved. And I think Lincoln almost kind of referred to him as a friend. Yeah, I think there is definitely warmth there. Yeah. I mean, the 1860s is where the political

idealism is, you know, the war is horrible, but there is an idealism in Reconstruction. That fails. The 1870s, we have in the South, the Jim Crow laws, you've got lynchings, the Ku Klux Klan, it's a horrible, horrible time to be a free black person. And Douglass is fighting against the political tide, but he's also presumably in danger, Emily. He's a senior black leader and people are being murdered. So is he in danger? Yes, he's not in the South, but he faces big challenges. In 1872, his house burned down. Nobody was hurt, but arson was a possibility. So he moved his family to Washington, D.C. In terms of the political tide, the 1870s is a difficult time. In 1874, he was parachuted in to govern a new bank set up to protect the savings of African American war veterans. Sadly, it was already in crisis due to mismanagement, and he couldn't stop $3 million in losses belonging to 60,000

Black families. He instead became federal marshal of the District of Columbia, meaning he was the first ever African American to be chosen for a role by the president and approved by the Senate. And by 1881, he was on to his third autobiography, Life and Times of Frederick Douglass. I mean, that's incredible, right? So he's put in charge of a bank that unfortunately fails and loses the money belonging to these sort of poor black families. Then he's the first person to be appointed by the Senate to a role in terms of an African American. That's an incredible thing to add to the CV.

And that's not even the most famous thing about him. I mean, it's a long list of things we're talking on today. I mean, Emily, I have to ask, why does he keep writing autobiographies? You know, is he sort of the George Lucas of his time? He can't help but tinker with his, you know, he has to keep coming back to the same thing over and over. Or is he growing and changing as a writer? Douglas changes his style and presentation with each autobiography, appealing to new audiences or aligning with new causes. The 1845 narrative fits into the genre

of slave narratives, often published and prefaced by white abolitionists. Garrison just wanted Douglass to describe his experience of slavery, not denounce it. But this also means that the narrative puts the reader in the same position as Frederick as a young child, witnessing the horrors of slavery without a framework for interpreting them. Then in My Bondage and My Freedom, 1855, Douglass presents himself more definitively as a Black leader, shaped by the Black women role models who raised him, his mother and grandmother. But he also depicts himself through tropes of the American self-made man, with ambition, self-improvement, and hard work being key. By 1881, The Life and Times presents Douglas as an intellectual, applying analytical thinking, so each book shows a different aspect.

Yeah, so he is using his life as a frame of reference, but he's doing something different each time. So I guess I'm not going to criticize Frederick Douglas, it's fine. I'm just sort of, you know, the publishers are like, another life story, okay. And we've already talked about this, I'm just sort of, you know, the publishers are like, another life story, okay. And we've already talked about this, Toussaint, but, you know, his photography, right? He's, you know, you say he's hot when he's young.

He's hot at every age. Oh, for sure. I mean, yeah, the guy's got it. And he obviously liked taking photographs. I mean, you don't take 160 photographs if you don't like it. I imagine if he was around today, he'd be the guy taking selfies at a protest. You know what I mean? But Emily, there's a reason for his use of photography. He's not just a political orator. He's a philosopher of art. He's interested in the camera, what it can do for black people,

for emancipation, isn't he? Black people had often been depicted with racist, exaggerated facial features. So Douglass loved how the camera captured the truth. It's important, too, to reflect on the dearth of positive public images of Black folk. You were in the paper either because you were lynched or you were being comedically degraded. Frederick Douglass issued 160 different photographs of himself throughout his life, becoming the most photographed American of the entire 19th century. He loved to work with black photographers who knew how to properly photograph his darker skin. He looks fantastic in every photo. The range of images charts his aging face, his changing hairstyles. It's fascinating. Yeah. And he goes through a variety of beards. I mean,

he goes to sort of the new metal underbeard, the kind of the goatee, the mutton chops, full beard, the smooth chin. He's got the sort of a leonine hair with the badger stripe. I mean, he's a good looking guy, but he's always changing it up. You got to keep the image fresh. You got to keep feeding the beast. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

But of the 160 photos we have of him, how many photos is he smiling in, do you think? This isn't a man who smiles he has gravitas i would say less than five it's one we have one photo yeah and he's not even showing teeth he's just sort of gently like yeah you know the lips are slightly curved towards a smile this is deliberate he does not want to be depicted smiling in fact an artist took a photo of him and then photoshopped a smile on him and douglas was like what are you doing that's not my brand that's not my image i also imagine that photoshopped picture would be absolutely rubbish like it's 1849 they don't have adobe photoshops imagine that smile just looks like it's just terrible do you know what i like it's just terrible.

It's like putting a smile on like a missed potato head or something. It's like this doesn't, this isn't the guy. Yeah, absolutely. So Frederick Douglass, he's not a smiler, but he was a warm guy. He chooses gravitas as an iconography of himself. And he's spending all this time away on tour, Emily. I mean, we've heard about two years in the UK and Ireland, but like he's always touring throughout these decades of life. Does he at least enjoy a cosy retirement with his wife, Anna, and the kids?

Does he ever put his feet up? Sadly, Anna Douglas died in 1882. Frederick was very depressed for a while, but he remarried in 1884 in his mid-60s to Helen Pitts, a younger white woman whose family he knew. She was a suffrage campaigner. Her parents were abolitionists, but did not approve of the marriage. It caused a national backlash. Some black people were angry he married a white woman. Many white people were disgusted. And Douglas's kids were not keen on seeing their mother replaced. Douglas, however, said of his second wife, it proves I'm impartial. My first wife was the colour of my mother and the second the colour of my father. Yeah, I mean, he's not saying he loves her, is he? I mean, that's quite a bit diplomatic, that, to be honest, from Douglas there.

There was, I think, love and affection there. And Helen Pitts was also very important in preserving his image later on when he died. But yeah, Anna Murray, 40 years of marriage, I think, and that's very sad. Does Helen, the second wife, does she get Frederick Douglass to slow down? I'm guessing the answer is no, Emily. No rest. Between 1886 and 1887, Helen and Frederick travelled throughout Europe, visiting England, France, Italy, Egypt and Greece. He was also appointed as Minister and Consul to the Republic of Haiti in 1889. It was a prestigious job, but such was the ongoing racism. He was refused first-class travel and had a naval captain refuse to sit with him at dinner. In 1895, he dies at the

age of 77, having recently returned from a women's rights convention. I mean, there we go, Toussaint. All the things he achieved in his life, dining with Lincoln, but a naval captain was like, I'm not going to sit with you. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's sad, isn't it? I think he did so much, but it just shows that even with all that, there is still that ongoing everyday racism, you know, which is a thing now, but was still, you know, was a thing then as well. They had to contend with. And the fact that he died, you know, returning from a woman's suffrage conference, you know, he was still putting in the work in his 70s for other people's fights. So, you know, this is a guy who just fights the good fight wherever he finds it.

It's extraordinary. The nuance window! wherever he finds it. It's extraordinary. The Nuance Window! That's the end of our narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass, which means it's time for the Nuance Window. This is where Toussaint and I sit back for two minutes and let Professor Emily give her own speech for two minutes. So when you're ready, give the Nuance Window, please. Full disclosure, I have not timed this. I just have to be honest. Go for it.

It feels a bit strange to go on about the beauty of Frederick Douglass' writing when he used his literary talents always in the grave service of liberation, not just for black people, but for all people. But Douglass, statesman, prophet, political theorist, orator, was primarily an artist. Historian and Douglass biographer David Blight calls him a prose poet on the meaning of America. Whether he was extolling the promise of the Union or criticizing the United States for its hypocrisies and failed promises, he did so with the eye and ear of an artist. He understood how language worked.

Slavery itself amounted ultimately to a collection of words. Douglass used the language denied him by law, not only to imagine freedom for his people, but to test out its cadence. He found meaning in the rhythms of the King James Bible and saw in particular the Hebrew prophets as companions. Douglass was fearless and incisive in his critiques of Christianity. Much of his narrative is devoted to demonstrating carefully how true Christianity is incompatible with the practice of slavery. Over his lifetime, his views on the faith of his childhood evolved, but the language that captured him as a child that mesmerized him never failed to provide him with the stories,

wisdom and language he needed to make his ageless critique of the country of his birth. As much as he was admired as an orator, Douglass was a writer first. He was not an extemporaneous speaker. Like any writer, he did his thinking on the page. He was himself defined and liberated by the written word, and that's why he returned again and again to the page, to deliver the same freedom he found there to others. What Douglass left us in his writings was not only indisputable evidence that Black people were human, capable of reason, capable of art. Not only did he leave us with his philosophies, political theories, rhetorical

masterpieces, complex arguments and treatises, he left us with a subtle, nuanced portrait of the interior life of the enslaved person. He did this with the simplest and most accurate of metaphors that connected his own story to the most timeless of stories. He achieved this greatness the only way possible by practicing. Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you so much, Emily. There we go. Great speech for a great man. What do you think to that, Toussaint? I mean, that was amazing. Yeah, that was awesome. It's interesting to say, you know, he wasn't an extemporaneous speaker, like he wasn't riffing off the cuff, but obviously he just had incredible charisma and magnetism. But the craft, isn't it?

It's the craft of that writing. And listeners, I highly recommend reading any of Douglas's books. I mean, they are incredible. So what do you know now? All right, well, it's time now to see how much Toussaint has remembered or learned. I mean, you knew quite a lot actually coming into this, Toussaint. You sort of slightly hid it a bit, but you were throwing out all sorts of facts. You've got to lower the bar, Greg, then you can clear the bar.

That's how you start off with it. All right, well, this is the So What Do You Know Now? This is the quiz. We have 10 questions for you. Do you feel, are you a natural quizzer? Do you feel naturally confident here? Absolutely not, no. I crumble under the pressure of the quiz.

Oh, gosh. Okay. I'm sure you won't crumble, but we have 10 questions. I'm going to start up the stopwatch now. Here we go. Question one. Born as Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey, from which poem, or rather, which poet, did he take his famous Douglas surname?

Oh, I know he's Scottish. Yep. William. Walter. Johnson. Water. Walter. Water, William.

I told you I'd crumble. Don't worry. It's Walter Scott's The Lady of the Lake we did we went past that quite quickly so that's

you know that was a while ago wasn't it okay question two what was the name of Douglas's first wife who funded his escape

Anna yes well done that was a punch in the air from Toussaint absolute relief oh my god question three

can you name the first of frederick douglas's two newspapers yeah yeah i can yeah yeah because one of them's named after him so it's frederick douglas paper and then the other one the one but the original iteration was the north star it was well done question four why was frederick douglas angry when a artist changed his face because it was a it was a terrible Photoshop, Greg. It was absolutely, just looked ridiculous. He put a smile on him. The man doesn't smile. Question five. Which of Abraham Lincoln's things was given to Douglas after his assassination? Oh, it was a walking stick. His favourite walking stick.

Question six. Can you name one of Frederick Douglass' autobiographies? Yes. The Narrative of Frederick Douglass. Oh, God. The Narrative of a Slave? Yes, yes. That's right. Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass,

An American Slave. Yes, absolutely. You could have My Bondage and My Freedom and Life and Times of Frederick Douglass as well. Question seven. The Scottish Free Church faced which slogan when Douglass campaigned against them fundraising in the American South?

Was it lock them up? No, I'm joking. Was it send it back? Yeah, send back the money. Yeah, exactly. Question eight. Delivered in 1852, what was the subject of Frederick Douglass'

most famous speech? Do I need to give the title of it or just the subject? No, the subject, the theme. In 1852, that was the most of Frederick Douglass's most famous speech? Do I need to give the title of it? Or just the subject? No, the subject, the theme. In 1852, that was the most famous one. It was about the 4th of July and how the hypocrisy of being free when actually black people weren't free at that time. Absolutely. Question nine. You're doing very well. This is so stressful. I'm not going to lie. Question nine. Frederick Douglass was the first African-American to be appointed to a job by which political institution? The Senate. It was, absolutely.

Marshall. Bonus point. Bonus point, because you knew it was a Marshall. All right, okay. This for 10 out of 11. Before escaping from slavery, how many black people did Frederick teach to read? 40. Boom!

10 out of 11. Very good. Well done. Bonus points to lift you up to a perfect score, but not quite, but still sort of perfect. First counting. Perfect score, yeah. Fantastic. Thank you, Toussaint.

And listener, if you're desperate for another episode with Professor Bernard, then you can check out our podcast on the Harlem Renaissance. I loved making that one. It was fascinating. Or for more astonishing abolitionists, try our episode on Harriet Tubman. You'll find them all on BBC Sounds, plus many, many more. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends.

Make sure to subscribe to our show, You're Dead to me on bbc sounds so you never miss an episode all that's left for me to say is a huge thank you to our guests in history corner we had the brilliant professor emily bernard from university of vermont thank you emily oh thank you i've had a great time and in comedy corner we have the terrific tucson douglas thank you tucson thanks so much for having me this has been fascinating and also just really fun and entertaining as well. Yeah, so thanks a lot. Thank you.

Thank you for your knowledge. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we ascend the lectern of rhetorical excellence with two more brilliant guests. But for now, I'm off to go and shave my beard

into a glorious goatee. Bye! Your Dead to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4. The research was by Anna Nadine Pike. This episode was written by Emma Neguse, Anna Nadine Pike and me. It was produced by Emma Neguse and me. The assistant producer was Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow. The project manager was Isla Matthews and the audio producer was Steve Hankey. Hello, I'm Brian Cox, and we are back for season 26 of The Infinite Monkey Cage.

And we begin, where do we begin, Robin? We start in a galaxy far, far away and a long time ago. It's Australia. Oh, OK, Australia then. We start, it felt like a galaxy to me, but we were in Australia where we talked about, well, spiders. You were scared of spiders. I wasn't actually scared of spiders, but you'll hear many trailers for this thing where they say, I wasn't scared of spiders.

We also did astronomy, actually, in Australia, which is fantastic. And then we came back to the UK and we had guests like, well, Ross Noble, Susan Calman, Russell Kane, Ed Byrne, Joe Brand, Sally Gunnell. Yeah, Anna Fry. Sue Black, Randa Munro.

And we found out, amongst other things, how to commit the perfect murder, which still hasn't really worked for me because I'm still upset at him. Listen on BBC Sounds. What a great platform. It is wonderful, isn't it? Unless you've got that Robbie Ninson Professor Cox

I'd leave that poor pussy alone in its box That cat may be as dead as a rat You can wage in the infinite monkey cage. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon Pull Apart, only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks with a small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply.