You're Dead to Me - History of Bollywood

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined by Professor Sunny Singh and broadcaster Poppy Jay to learn all about the history of Indian cinema, colloquially known as Bollywood. Filmmaking technology arrived in India in 1896, only six months after the Lumiere brothers debuted their invention in Paris. Nowadays, over 700 films are released in India every year, and it is the most popular cinema in the world, reaching over a billion more viewers a year than Hollywood. From the first Indian film in 1913, through the arrival of 'talkies' and colour in the 1930s, to its incredible success today, this episode explores the vibrant history of Bollywood, and the way it has reflected and shaped modern Indian society and politics. Research by: Madeleine Bracey Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Caitlin Hobbs Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse

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Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we are buying our tickets, popping our popcorn and settling into our cinema seats to learn all about the history of Bollywood. And to help us, we have two very special guest stars. In History Corner, she's an academic

and the author of both non-fiction and fiction books, including the novel Hotel Arcadia. She's Professor of Creative Writing and Inclusion in the Arts at London Metropolitan University in London. And luckily for us, she's also got a fantastic new book out all about Indian cinema. It's called A Bollywood State of Mind. And our guest is Professor Sunny Singh. Welcome, Sunny.

Hello. Good to be here. And thank you for having me. A pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, she's a broadcaster, BAFTA-nominated documentary director and award-winning podcaster. You might have seen one of her TV documentaries, including Rescuing Ex-Muslims and Queens of Rap, or listened to her BBC Asian Network show, Group Chat. And you'll definitely know her from co-hosting the fantastic and funny Brown Girls Do It Too.

It's about love and sex and dating and heartbreak and friendship and all the good stuff. And it had a fantastic stage show spin-off, Mama Told Me Not To Come. So who is it? It's none other than Poppy J. Welcome to the show, Poppy. I've got to steal that bio. What an intro. My God. Hi, thank you so much for having me. We're delighted to have you here. Poppy, first time on the show. Yeah. I'm a big fan of your podcast, but I want to know, do you like history? Is this out of your comfort zone?

I love history. Oh, phew. And one of my biggest regrets is I wish I'd done history at A-level. And I wish I'd picked history as my degree. Because the one thing that put me off is I learned so much about the Second World War. And I wanted to know more about the empire and colonialism. And I was far more interested in the American Civil War. So that put me off because I thought it's going to be another two years of Winston Churchill chatting breeze.

So I was like, allow that. So that was my biggest regret. So I'm so happy to be in this room and I'm going to be learning and listening and probably being a bit of a clown. And hopefully this is a no brainer. Are you familiar with Bollywood? Of course I am. 90s Bollywood though, Professor Sunny Singh. 90s Bollywood is the best Bollywood.

I'm just putting it out there. Everyone has their favourite. Everyone has their favourite. What would be your classic 90s Bollywood movie that you Bollywood. I'm just putting it out there. Everyone has their favourite. Everyone has their favourite. What would be your classic 90s Bollywood movie that you would use to introduce someone to the genre? Oh God, that is such a good question. And unfortunately for me, I don't know the names of any of them.

The titles are so long. Probably Cubby Cushy Cubby Cum is a bit of a, it's a classic, isn't it? Yeah, Cubby Cushy Cubby Cum is a classic. It's also something quite funny because the tagline goes, it's all about loving your parents. So it's quite funny

because it's also part of my book because the book's dedicated to my mum. Oh, there we go. What's the one with the Mehendi Laga Kere Kana? That's my old time. DDLJ. DDLJ.

Okay. Basically, you come over to our slumber party. You get DD, it'll be like a Lord of the Rings trilogy. Like DDLJ, Kabi Kushi Kabi Kam, and then a third one. Kuch Kuch Hote. Kuch Kuch Hote. Done. There we go. There you go. That's about a week and a Lord of the Rings trilogy. Like DDLJ, Kabi Kushikabi Kam, and then a third one. Kuch Kuch Otehe. Kuch Kuch Otehe. Done.

There we go. There you go. That's about a week and a half of your life. So, what do you know? Well, that brings us to the first section of the podcast, the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.

And Bollywood is the world's most popularly watched cinema. It is the biggest film industry on the planet. Yeah, I think it's fair to say Indian films are not as well known in Europe or North America. Film buffs may know the work of mid-century director Satyajit Ray, I think is often critically hailed. But there's not a huge amount of name recognition on some of the other great filmmakers and actors. But there's not a huge amount of name recognition on some of the other great filmmakers and actors. Although in 2022, the Bollywood spectacular RRR made a global smash. It won an Oscar, Golden Globe, two Critic Choice Awards.

It went viral on Twitter because it's incredible stunts. And yes, some Bollywood stars are now Hollywood famous too, like Priyanka Chopra Jonas, who, as well as being one of the highest paid actresses in India, is also the wife of pop star Nick Jonas. But what about the historical origins of Bollywood? How is it tied up with the history of modern India? And what exactly is an item number? Let's find out. Okay, so why is it called Bollywood? And is that a useful title for this episode?

I think we need a bit more nuanced thinking. So it's a useful term for this episode because it's a kind of catch-all name that is also really familiar in the West. But it is a name that is given derisively and it implies that Indian cinema is a kind of knock-off cheap version of American cinema. So I don't use it in India or even places like Jordan or Malaysia or Russia, where Indian cinema is already very popular. So Indian cinema is a useful umbrella term, but India makes movies in 17 languages. And so what we call Bollywood is Bombay cinema, because that's where the films are made.

And Hindi cinema is also an option, although many filmmakers speak other languages as well, even though they work in Hindi. So actually, RRR that you mentioned in the introduction is a Telugu language film. It's not really Bollywood. Sometimes we also use masala movies, which is kind of more about the structure. It means spices and applies to all kinds of films that are suitable for every kind of occasion. So the three films we mentioned earlier, those kind of work. Those are masala movies.

Yeah. They're not proper masala, but yeah. I've never heard of masala movies. I'm going to use that now. It's great. So Bollywood, I mean, it's the title of your book. So obviously it's the moniker we all kind of know, but it's not hugely useful. And Bombay now is known as Mumbai, but Bombay is where the B comes from in the Bollywood. Exactly. That's exactly. All right. Well, so we'll keep saying Bollywood for now, but I'm going to put big old air quotes next to it. Every time you hear me say it, listener, big air quotes on the Bollywood. And we're talking about a 20th century art form,

cinema, 1896, that is the invention of the camera, but it's a 20th century art form. Sonny, you want to start the subject in the 2nd century BCE, 2,200 years ago. What? Hang on. Yeah, because we've been doing this stuff for a while. So to really understand these films, we have to actually start with the history of theatre in India and the principles and theories of performance and drama. And these are laid out in something called a Natyashastra,

and that's a Sanskrit text. And it's written in verse, and it's from 2nd century BCE. And it has 6,000 verses, which explain the principles of every aspect of theatre, performance, production. And it gives an overview as well of regional theatre conventions, which map nicely across much of modern South Asia and recognises variations in style and languages across the region.

The Nathashastra also talks about drama as a cultural form that is accessible not only to the elite, but all levels of society. And it's been the text that is sort of the foundation for all performance and art and thinking about all of these in India for that long. That's amazing. Have you heard of the Natya Shastra before? Absolutely not. Not until five seconds ago. I'm writing it down. How do you say it? Natya Shastra. Natya Shastra. 6,000 verses in it. It's, you know. It's not a sort of brief little pamphlet. No, it's definitely when you compare it to poetics, which is what, 36 pages?

The Indians, they love a manuscript, don't they? You've got the Kama Sutra, you've got the Natya Shastra. We like putting stuff down. And then we like arguing about it. Yeah. All those aunties and uncles around the living room table being like, I tell you, it's like this. What are the key elements?

Let me start with some of the concept of rasa, actually, which is really important. And it translates roughly to juicer essence. And rasa is the cumulative result of all elements of performance. So stage, light, actors, acting, costume, everything. But it's combined with the audience's reaction to it. The Nod Your Sustra also talks about how to structure a play, themes. So, for example, separation and reunion are really common. There's spaces for dream space, subplots, lots of emphasis also on the role of spectacle.

We'll come back to that with item girl numbers or item numbers. Also, how to use visual metaphor, you know, a whole range of things. It's useful to know that there are four positive rasas and four negative rasas. So the four positive ones, ashrangar, which is love, hasya, which is humor, vir, which is heroism and courage, adput, that is wonder, and the four negative ones, karna, which is sorrow, rodra, which is wrath, bhayanak, which is terror, and bhipats, which is disgust. The masala movie or the masala performance will balance each of these out. You can't just throw everything in and it can't be just one thing. The perfect balance is the perfect performance. And this is also why not just Bollywood, but many Indian films don't neatly fit into the Western genre categorisation. Poppy, when you were writing your stage show

with Rubina, Mama Told Me Not To Come, which of the Russes are you using most? I mean, if we were a pie chart of Russes, it would probably be mostly comedy and humour. But there's a massive gear change towards the end of the show. Okay. Well, not to give too much away, but sorrow and heartache and pain. That's our masala mix right there. Sounds like a tasty dish. All right, great.

We're going to zoom forward now from ancient India to the 19th century. And we've got plays happening. And Poppy, what kind of plays do you think these are? What do you guess is happening? I mean, knowing Indians and Asians, generally South Asians, I imagine they're about honour and reputation and keeping your family happy and love. We love a good love story, don't we?

We love love. This is an interesting period in history because obviously this is during the British Raj or the British control of South Asia. So what sort of plays are happening? Who's in them? What are they about? So what's really interesting is about mid-19th century, there's the rise of what we can call modern theatre. And this is because student communities in places like Bombay are creating their own productions. And these often use Western theatrical forms, which actually have been brought in by the British population in India. Hello.

Because they're missing it. Have some Shakespeare. It's very good. You'll like it. There's lots of theatre happening in many languages and many forms. But this is something new with the students start creating. And so it uses for the first time the proscenium stage for example

so it's important but at this point western plays for example Shakespeare are huge but you wouldn't recognize them as Shakespeare because they're translated and they're rewritten

to have much more relevance and appeal to the local audience so Verona means nothing. Baghdad does mean something. So characters are renamed. They're given cost and community identities. They're given more familiar cultural motivations. Songs and dance and narrative structures are changed to explain this.

It's still kind of Shakespeare, but it's not recognised. We've browned it up. Yeah. We're browned it up. Yeah, we browned it out. This modern theater also pulls together scripts and ideas and stories from Persian and Sanskrit theater. A lot of it is financed by Parsi entrepreneurs. This is a very small minority in India. They're descendants of Persian immigrants who practice Zoroastrianism. India, they're descendants of Persian immigrants who practice Zoroastrianism. And these plays are written for large parts by Zoroastrians, but also Muslims and Christians. And in general, it becomes known as Parsi theatre. And this is the forerunner of Indian cinema. It's performed

by actors of many religious, linguistic, ethnic backgrounds, but is aimed actually at a largely Hindu audience. Okay, yeah. And I think that's really the interesting part because that's the root of Bombay cinema. So in 1895, Poppy, along comes France's famous Lumiere brothers and they invent the camera, the film camera and projection technology. So that's the birth of cinema, 1895.

How quickly do you think it ends up in India from Paris? 1895 to India, Mumbai. Oh, God. It's 7,000 kilometres away. I'm going to hazard a guess and say 20. 24. 1924, you think, or are you saying 24? No, 1924 from 1895.

So you think like 30 years? Yeah. Six months. Wow, that's a terrible guess that is quick I mean the moment they invent the camera they pop it on a ship

and off it goes I think it's really great because Lumiere brothers in Paris present the camera the film camera at a room that's called

the India room oh nice it says everything yeah it does yeah so it's in Mumbai in 1896 so initially these are short films these are like really really short these are really kind of quick one real little room. It says everything. Yeah, it does. Yeah. So it's in Mumbai in 1896.

So initially these are short films. These are really, really short. These are really kind of quick, one real little, you know, mini micro silent dramas.

Kind of what you see on TikTok these days. Yeah, yeah. Like silent TikToks. You know when you've got your phone on mute and you're just looking at the captions.

You've just got the captions. You're in the toilet. Greg, one quick thing. BFI has put a lot of these on YouTube. So look them up. Yes. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, one quick thing. BFI has put a lot of these on YouTube, so look them up. Yes. Yeah, you're right.

Yeah, there's amazing stuff in the 1890s on YouTube from South Asia and from Europe. So how long are they typically, these short reels? They're short. I mean, they're often 40, 50 seconds long sometimes. Oh, they really are like a TikTok. Really, really. Yeah, yeah. But they're good.

It's so funny that we've done like a full circle back to, yeah, okay. The first feature film, 1913 in India. That's really early. It is. And I think filmmaking just zooms through the land in such fast ways. People are immediately loved watching this marvellous new thing. The first feature land silent film is Raja Harishchandra. Okay.

It begins development in 1911 and it's released in 1913. Wow, it takes two years to make the first film. I mean, that's impressive, right? You have to learn how to make it. But it's directed by Dadasab Falke, who was a photographer, and it's actually based on a very popular play from 1875. And the plot centers on an exiled king who experiences poverty and the death of his son.

And then his wife is falsely accused of murder and he is ordered to execute her. Yeah, I know. It gets really heavy stuff. And they're saved by the deity Shiva, who shows up and restores justice and the kingdom and resuscitates his son. And it was hugely convenient. Yeah, I know. I know. It was hugely successful to the point they had to create more new prints for it. OK, yeah.

To be able to circulate it. So Rajaharishchand, even as the first feature film, can be considered a multilingual film because it had intertitles. Because it's a silent film, but it's a multilingual silent film. Exactly. So the intertitles, which is the on-screen text which would show up in the quote-unquote dialogues, were in English, Marathi and Hindi. And Falke had actually travelled to Britain to learn filmmaking

and had imported equipment from Europe in order to make the film. That's why it took two years. So Poppy, Falke spent time in London learning filmmaking, a modern filmmaking degree, usually three years, give or take. How long do you think he had to learn filmmaking in London? Before he made this film that took two years? Yeah. Well, if it took six months to get the camera shipped from Paris to India, I want to say something ridiculous like a day, not a day, obviously. I don't know, a month?

Two weeks Good instinct I can't learn anything What could you master in two weeks? I mean nothing During Covid I learnt nothing People were learning languages, learning an instrument I was like, I've learnt how to eat more

So Falke, he's learned some techniques in London. He returns home. He invents the feature film in the South Asian market. It's called Araja Harish Chandra. Is that right? Yeah. And the god Shiva comes out and sort of deus ex machina.

It's good sort of good stuff. Great special effects, by the way. Right. And that's the other thing, right? Already film is doing trickery and fun stuff, which is cool. And there is a sort of back and forth between theatre and film. It's not like a new art film has been invented, film, and everyone goes, right, that's it, ditch the theatre, we don't need it anymore. There is a sort of constant dialogue, but they're informing each other.

Yes. So many directors, writers, actors begin to work in film. And some of them actually still continue to work in theatre as well. And of course, as Falke had done, many of the early filmmakers find ready-made scripts and popular scripts in the Parsi theatre. Interestingly, as Parsi theatre, you would use a mixture of languages. Filmmakers also continued this approach. So the intertitles on silent films would be in multiple languages, as would be dialogue, once sound was introduced. This also leads to the emergence of filmy Hindustani. Hindustani itself is a combination of Hindi and Urdu, popularly spoken. But this filmy Hindustani drew on vocabulary from various languages, Marathi,

Gujarati, Bengali, and filmy Hindustani then becomes a kind of lingua franca through Indian cinema. It's really interesting that you touch on that, actually, because I'm Bangladeshi, and I understood Hindi from watching Bollywood films. Really interesting to hear that the multilingual element is so fundamental to film so early on. You know, we're in 1913 here we're talking about. To be fair, it also goes back to a thousand years ago because the Natya Shastra is very clear.

You should just let people speak whatever. Right. Yeah. And it also means Greek characters. Greek characters could show up in a classical play and speak Greek. Amazing. And that would be acceptable. You can't do that in Hollywood now, can you?

Okay, so you mentioned sound coming in. So in Hollywood, that's the jazz singer. It's the first sound motion picture in 1927. And I'm guessing the Indian cinema, given that it took six months for the camera to show up, presumably they're sort of straight on it. Yeah, we'll have that, please. Thank you very much.

So how quick are we talking? We're talking really quickly. Any technology that comes up goes immediately to Indian cinema. We love it. So yes, the arrival of sound is very, very quick. And the first Indian film with sound was Alamara. It means light of the world and it comes out in 1931. But here is the singing in the rain moment. Not all silent movie actors were suitable for talkies. The silent film superstar was Sulochna, a female actress. And she was from India's Iraqi Jewish community.

Yeah, was she called Ruby Myers? Yes, Ruby Myers was her name. And she did not speak in Dasani, which was not a problem in silent era, and could not be cast in Alamara. So guess what? She takes a year off to learn the language and then comes back to the Tokis in 1932. Wow. And becomes another star now for the Tokis, a superstar.

Two things happen. The introduction of sound also means Alamara included songs. Oh, yeah. Seven songs. Okay. Immediately. Oh, we love a number. We love a number, don't we?

Okay, now we're talking. Or now we're singing, rather. Yeah, yeah. And of course, that's also the start of all the other cinema industries in India because films can now be splintered along linguistic lines and kind of be made in multiple languages. Okay. It's no longer just focused in one city.

Yeah, that's fascinating. So, okay, we're singing it's we're singing we're singing we're ready we're not gonna stop singing I mean can you imagine a Bollywood film without song and dance because it's so intrinsic isn't it are there any Bollywood films without any song and dance numbers I'm sure there must be I don't know in the last 120 years I I have, I think, identified about 10. Experimental. They're very experimental.

Real arthouse stuff. To be fair, they are the arthouse cinema, but commercial cinema, I don't think they really do that. So every Bollywood film, from the films that I've watched, it's basically a musical, effectively. We're so informed by Bollywood. It's in our DNA. It's kind of, we grew up, it forms such a big part of identity. We talk about it in the podcast.

We give homage to it in the show. And I've not seen any films without any, at least eight musicals. And it's such a part of the culture as well, because I remember these cassette tapes. What's that company called? Tips? T-I-P-S? Yes, Tips. Also T-Series. They're everywhere. T-Series. Yes.

They have mad, mad following. And it would be our equivalent of people swapping records. Right. Like we, my uncles would go to the shop, get these cassette tapes and we'd all be listening by the hi-fi or the stereo to like the latest tracks. It was so magical. I mean, now everything's all digital.

No, I like that. The analog swapping of stuff. The analog, yeah, yeah. You swap tapes with the, you know, the uncle from number 54 and you take yours and you take his. And there's so many different types of song. There's so many sort of genres. I mean, I know producer Emmy and her mum, Namrita,

are suckers for a big romantic number sung on top of the Swiss mountains, And there's so many different types of song. There's so many sort of genres. I mean, I know producer Emmy and her mum, Namrita, are suckers for a big romantic number sung on top of the Swiss mountains, which apparently is a sort of real thing in Bollywood now. Like a lot of stuff gets filmed on mountains. Oh, the Swiss mountain jokes. Yeah, yeah, I like that. The Swiss mountain jokes, yeah. Yeah, it must be quite chilly up there.

It is, it is. But there is a logical reason for it because starting about late 80s, because of the political issues in Kashmir, it became impossible to film there. And the whole mountains as a romantic space for love is a very long standing trope. Swiss mountains became the stand in. The hills were alive with the sound of Bangra. I don't know.

It works, right? It's a beautiful thing. But also, I guess it's an exotic location. But I mean. It is chilly. And if you think that's chilly, you haven't seen the song shot in Antarctica. You can see the actress's lips turn blue. Oh, my word. They did a musical number in Antarctica. Wow.

That's hardcore. I mean, so we've identified really that there's no such thing. Well, you said there are 10 movies without music. So my favorite movie is Singing in the Rain, which is a musical, an MGM musical. But there's no such thing as a musical you said there are 10 movies without music so my favorite movie is singing in the rain which is a musical an mgm musical but there's no such thing as a musical in bollywood it is just is it just is yeah exactly there is no distinction between sort of films and musicals as separate categories and song and dance are essential films can't wouldn't even i think operate effectively without them in many cases sometimes Sometimes up to 25% of a film budget can depend on the sale of the music rights. From the 30s, that means soundtracks have become a secondary source of income for films.

And songs are also used to promote films ahead of their release. Plus, also going back to the Nacisastra, song and dances serve specific narrative, visual, emotional purposes within the film. They can introduce the main star, they can enable character exposition, they reveal key themes as the narrative unfolds, they establish mood and anticipation, they allow for debate and moral dilemmas, they make political statements. Songs do a lot of stuff. And they provide levity and emotional relief for the audience. And I think going back to the item song, the glamorous spectacle, which is often a song that can

feature an actress or a star who's not actually in the rest of the movie, but comes in to do a really cool, glamorous... A cameo appearance. Yeah. But it's not just a cameo. The job is to show up and just look fabulous and do a number, which is glorious and everybody will dance to and it will continue to be a huge hit forever. Yeah. And that's the role.

There's a film from 1932 called Indra Saba, which translates to The Court of the Gods. Poppy, how many songs were in it, do you think? Given that the first Bollywood with songs had seven songs, how many by 1932 are in this film? I'm going to double and say 14. That's a very sensible guess. 71 songs. My God, that's insane.

How long was the film? Four hours. At what point does the songs just turn into one big song? I mean, I don't think I know 71 songs. You know, it's really interesting because also like the way Asian people watch cinema and watch plays. So when we did our show, I totally forgot. We actually did a, we had a dance routine to a very famous song. I'm sure Sunny will know called Dola Redola from Devdas.

very famous song, I'm sure Sonny will know, called Dola Redola from Devdas. You need music to give you pause. And music is great because it informs the culture, the fashion. But after a while, it just kind of blends into one. And the way we watch films as well. I remember we told Soho Theatre staff that Asian people will talk during the show. We want them to talk. We want them to discuss. They're not talking about what they're having for dinner. So don't shush them. We don't want anyone to be shushed. So we had latecomers galore and people were talking and whispering

and they were talking about what's happening on stage. I remember Rubina saying, I've never been to a cinema in India or Bangladesh. I'd love to go. But she said when she went with her mum, it was just like, I was like, how can you stand four hours of cinema when you're just constantly talking?

And she's like, it just turns into six hours. It's a day out. So my favorite, favorite movie ever is not for the movie itself. It's Lagan. Lagan. Oh, my God. Yes. I watched it in Delhi and we went to the park.

Isn't it Amer Khan? And the cricket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the Amer Khan. Last half of the movie is a cricket match. We got to the parking lot. Is it the Amir Khan and the cricket? Yeah, the cricket. The last half of the movie is a cricket match. We got to the parking lot. There were people with drums and flags. I did not hear a word that was said.

It was like being in a stadium for the last half of the film. You've got to love the way Art Me Do things. That is amazing. And you couldn't even hear the film. It was brilliant. It was the best film ever. That's a proper experience. Yeah, that is amazing.

Sunny, the practicalities of filming these movies, if you've got all these choreographed scenes, dancing, singing, acting, four hours worth of plot, are all the actors sort of superstars? You can sing, they can dance, they can act, they can do stunts. Are they everyone's a triple threat or what? Well, they do have to dance. Okay.

Although sometimes body doubles are used for dancing, often in very, very famous sequences. But no, thankfully, actors don't have to sing. Since the 1940s, singing has been dubbed by playback singers. And these singers are actually often huge stars in their own right. So people like Mohammad Rafi, Lata Mangeshkar, and they still have decades later huge fan followings. Lyricists and composers are also highly valued and they often have their own star status. So lyricists will have big billing on all the material. And these have often actually been very well-respected poets who also appreciate and understand the role of song in a movie. So song should not repeat what dialogue has already said. It should enhance the mood or emotion. How is it supposed to phrase it, phrase these ideas? So all of this is quite literary, in fact, and I think that is also quite different and quite

unique. I want to get back to the item numbers, the item girls, because I find that really interesting. Because you said that these, they're always women. Is that right? You don't get item boys? Item chaps? Most of the time it's women. Although some of the major stars, including Shah Rukh Khan, who we'll talk about it, has done his own take of the item number, but so have older stars like Rishi Kapoor. So there has been a tradition, but mostly it's women.

I have a question. What is an item number? These are really incredibly staged, spectacular numbers dating back to the 40s. And really, staged, spectacular numbers dating back to the 40s. And really, these are opportunities for filmmakers to create a huge spectacle. So it's a grand setting, often a stage, but not always. There's great upbeat music for the most part. Sad songs or slow songs don't make a good item number. It's got to be sexy.

It's got to be fun. There's a gorgeous actor, star, beautifully costumed, generally often quite over-the-top costuming. So feathers and sequins and you name it. And over time, they've been used to highlight in different times the temptations of modernity, to distinguish between characters who are traditional and those who are modern. That is another way of showing the difference between the characters. There are also, however, over the decades, huge, well-known, beloved stars like Helen, who really built an entire career decades long

of showing up in a film just for a single musical number. It's an amazing idea. Thinking about how I consume Bollywood, I liken it to the cameo, but it serves a completely separate purpose, like Sonny was saying. And you often sometimes forget about the film and you remember that song. Right. And you're humming that song and you're with your cousins trying to reenact moments from that song and you're trying to follow the fashion, which is something I

desperately tried to do. But, you know, it's smart. Indians are smart, man. They know what they're doing. I mean, it is a money-making enterprise. It's cinema, but it's still money-making. You said 25% of the kind of budget of the film is made by sales of these songs. So you need to have a banger tune in the middle to fund the actual movie. And these songs, they live on. You know, they live on.

I remember in Asian weddings, film a wedding in the 90s, someone's wedding, which would also go on for bloody hours, the actual video. And then you'd get rid of all the sound and you just have music and then in the little box do you remember in the little box you could see the video of the song the item number right in so it'd be your you know be someone's wedding and in a small little screen you could see the video the music video at your wedding video on your wedding video? On your wedding video. Amazing.

Yeah. I don't know if the copyright law allows that. Well, honey. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply.

If you're after more fascinating stories from the past on everything from medieval peasants to World War II pilots, then why not check out the History Extra podcast? Made by the team behind BBC History magazine, History Extra brings you conversations with the world's leading historians. Subscribe for fresh takes on history's most famous figures and compelling deep dives into lesser-known events. Just search for History Extra to listen wherever you get your podcasts. OK, so we're into the 30s now.

We're talking about sound technology, but also there's another technology that comes in in the 30s. It's colour. And that's a collaboration with German filmmakers. So, yeah, I think that's a really interwar period collaboration. It's a very fruitful relationship between Indian and German film industries. It does end with the outbreak of the Second World War. Oh, we're back to Hitler and Churchill again.

Sorry, Poppy. For God's sake. I'm leaving. Well, so what happens is Britain expels or inters any Germans who are operating in the British colonies. So that obviously impacts anybody who's working in Bombay and is German. But before this, German directors have been working in India. Indian filmmakers train in Berlin. Wolfram Haines leads the first Indian cine-color laboratory. And that also means 1933 sees the release of the first Indian film in color, which is C'est André by V. Shantaram. Although this is processed in Germany.

But very soon after, in 1937, comes Kisan Kanyan, which is The Peasant Girl. And that's the first film in color that is produced entirely in India. However, this is a little bit more complicated because given the fact that color technology had been developed in the global north in white countries, there was serious difficulty in rendering South Asian skin tones on screen. So you can see filmmakers struggle with this constantly. And this really gets fully resolved in the 1990s with the arrival of digital technology. Right. So that kind of racial structural biases in the technology are there. I mean, and that sort of quite handily leads us on to the British in India.

Hello, me again. Poppy, how do you think British colonial authorities reacted to this growing popularity of Indian cinema? What era are we to? Where are we? Early 1900s, sort of 1910s, 1920s. I imagine they probably didn't like it, especially if there was any dissent or any kind of Indian cinema that favoured sort of Indian nationalism or gave Indians a sense of their identity. I want to say because of the Brits' terrible history, they probably just banned it or they didn't like it. Or if they did allow cinema, it was how fantastic the British were,

you know, helping us build railways, you know, and teaching us moral values, etc. Good instincts, Poppy. The British government, not keen. Pretty much as soon as there's film, there are censors, gentlemen with moustaches saying, no, no, no. So can you tell us about this kind of colonial censorship and how does it apply to film? Well, I think it's important to recognise that films were not just a new medium, but they were a very powerful one.

So they arrive in India at a time when the country has 4% literacy levels. Right. And Falke, the director of the first Indian feature film in 1913, was inspired by the writer Rabindranath Tagore, who had said earlier, some years before, that cinema could be a really powerful political tool for reaching the masses. But yes, British colonial authorities tried to clamp down on it very quickly. So various regulatory acts are introduced by the Imperial Legislative Council. That's a bit Star Wars, though. In 1910, you get the Press Act, which limits the use of literature as a means of disseminating anti-colonial ideas. And of course, in 1918, the Cinematograph Act sets the age restrictions and gives the right to the government to suspend any film which was, quote, likely to cause a breach of peace.

This also means that in 1937, for example, you get Dunya na Mane, The World Does Not Accept, which is actually a film about forced marriages and criticizes it. But it also included documentary footage of the anti-colonial leader, Vallabh Pai Patel. So the census ordered that the footage be removed. But there are clever ways around these rules, Poppy. Filmmakers were finding ways to navigate the system. Do you want to guess what they might be? Maybe some sort of symbolic gesture, either through the music or through traditions and values that are not familiar with the Brits, something only Indian society would understand? These are good guesses, actually. I think music is a good one. And I really like the idea of a

sort of shibboleth type code. But Sonny, how are people getting around the rules? No, you're actually very right. So, of course, this is all happening in the context of the growing independence movement. And many films start to focus on rebellion against unjust rulers and organized action by the people. So the 30s also, for example, see the rise of these thrilling action movies where the heroes defeat the villains. And these are generally more palatable to the censor so you can get them past because their political material is more as subtext. Filmmakers also use songs to try sneaking in political content. So soundtracks, and then they come up with this grand idea of having accompanying lyric booklets, which then reach more audiences and more people than films can on their own. And these are also harder to control and regulate. So film music becomes the vehicle to spread political messages, especially for films which

were at particular risk of being censored. There we go. So don't speak out against injustice. Sing out. Yeah. Smart. Can we have a musical section in brown girls do it too, maybe? I don't think we need a musical section.

We're just constantly speaking out all the time. We probably need a bit of censoring, to be fair. We need a bit of filtering. Our mouths need washing. It's a real privilege, isn't it, to be able to say what you want, to be able to protest. You know, you kind of take your civil liberties for granted, don't you? So that's a very clever way

that they managed to find creative ways to get their political messages out, especially in that time in the 30s, right? When did we get independence? 1947. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. So that's like, it's on the horizon, isn't it? Yeah.

And there's a lot of social change and there's a lot of social reform and social issues as well women's rights farmers rights land rights these are all in the mix so yes definitely all of this has to be put across to the people and some of it crosses over to you know to bother the censors and we've mentioned partition there so partition is done by the british state in 1947. India, as it's called, is split into two states, India and Pakistan. And you get horrific violence, over a million people are killed. It's obviously hugely traumatic. And so how does Bollywood respond as an industry, but also in terms of the themes it's putting in its films?

I think the first immediate reaction or the impact is some very, very prominent Muslims in the Indian film industry, particularly in Mumbai, leave for Pakistan at the point of partition. Equally many Hindu filmmakers who are in Lahore leave for India. The Bengali film industry, which is based around Calcutta and Dhaka, loses a vast part of its audience overnight. based around Calcutta and Dhaka, loses a vast part of its audience overnight. The partition is also reflected in the films that are made. Very quickly, for example, a trend shows up about films that are focused on families that are separated forcibly, often by fate. And then the storyline is about how they are brought together again.

Which was a theme in the Nadia Shastra, wasn't it? That you said that was... The separation and union logic. So it gets kind of gets this new life. So you get something like Wacht, which is time by Yash Chopra in 1965, in which an actual earthquake divides the family. And then they have to find each other again. And a popular sub-genre of this actually is around identical twins who are separated at birth. And that is often played by one major star. So you get Ram or Shyam, which is about the twins who are Ram, who's shy and nervous, and Shyam, who's brave and urbane. And they're both played by the legend, the Lip Kumar. And these are some of the ways they start to try and address the traumas. And these are some of the ways they start to try and address the traumas. That's a very, very interesting response to a huge trauma in the 40s. But by the 60s and 70s, we're talking about the Bollywood golden age, inverted commas. Is there a change away from that kind of hardcore political element and it's becoming a bit more glamorous and glitzy? I think 60s see increased budgets.

They see colour films, which then become standards. But politics is still there. The wars that lead to the formation of Bangladesh, unemployment, right to divorce, even the restrictions on civil rights that are imposed during the emergency, which is 1975 to 77, are reflected by cinema. In the 70s, films also capture the anger and frustration of India's very first post-colonial generation. And that's when you see the emergence of Amitabh Bachchan as the, quote, angry young man who plays these characters who single-handedly take on corruption in economic and political systems in the country. Interesting. Poppy, if you were going to be typecast as a type of role in a movie, what would you love to be? I probably would be the angry young woman. Fighting the system. Fighting the system, fighting corruption, which I'm not singling out India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, but, you know, corruption is rife.

I don't see myself playing the main kind of love interest. It will be someone with a purpose, someone who's fighting for justice. That's kind of my role. Not doing the item numbers, you're going to be doing the kind of the moral crusade. Well, no, I've got two films. So in my main film, I'm the protagonist and I'm the angry young woman. And then in the other film, I make a cameo as the big important star in an item number. Good, good.

So I'm just like double dipping. Good to have range. Love it. I mean, yeah, on Horrible Histories, I'd always be background medieval peasant covered in poo. That was my... Not so much item girl. You know you downgrade yourself. No, that's literally the role I played quite often. So, yeah, not really item girl, more sort of irritable bowel boy, really.

It's just sort of a guy who's just covered in feces. All right, let's get back to some proper cinema. I mean, Sunny, you've mentioned Amitabh Bachchan, who is, you know, a star, like a proper mega star. Celebrity is such a huge part of the Indian film industry right now. You know, the screaming, the love, the adoration is enormous, way more so than for Hollywood stars. When does that start?

Very early. And that's because early film stars in India are also already often theatre stars. So they can pull in existing fans. And even before film arrives, fans would travel hundreds of miles to see their favourite theatre stars, favourite musicians and dancers.

One early star we talked about earlier, Solochna, we've already mentioned, and she was huge. There's another wonderful, colorful character in the 30s who was Fearless Nadia. And she was a white Australian woman named Marianne Evans, who worked as a stuntwoman and an actress in many of the 1930s action films. She actually has this amazing aura. And there was also Devi Karani, who studied actually at RADA and the Royal Academy of Music. And that's where she meets her husband, Himanshu Rai. Then they went home together via Berlin, so worked there.

And they set up the Bombay Talkies film company in 1934. And Devi Karani was actually known often as the first lady of Indian cinema. And she was massive and continued to be massive. And I think after independence as well, you get this almost you get a bigger proliferation of stars from the 50s onwards. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Devika Rani is really fascinating. And Marianne Evans, you know, very cool posters of her sort of kicking ass with a bullwhip. You know, she's like sort of Indiana Jones, but, you know, in the third. Cooler than Indiana Jones. Yeah. I mean, she's absolutely, you know. OK, so Poppy, what would your fans call you? What would be your Bollywood nickname? Like angry spice or hot spice or manager spice.

I'm going to stick within the rage section. Continue down that theme. And I don't mind being typecast and pigeonholed. Justice spice. Oh. I don't know. Let me come back to you on that. But like something around that. Revolution spice.

Oh, yes, honey. I'll take that. Yeah. You're going to kick an ass and kick a man's. Oh, yeah. That's exactly what I'm doing. Mostly men. Just kicking men's asses. Hey. fearless nadia yeah okay yeah fearless poppy fearless

poppy yeah modern reboot you know but yes that's kind of where i'd be that's nice and what about the stars of the 60s and 70s sunny there is sadhana who was huge and very popular and a major fashion icon which is what i love about her so she popularizes what's called the Sadhana cut, which has got a short Audrey Hepburn-like fringe, way before Friends and Aniston happened, way before. And she also introduces the modern, more tight-fitting versions of traditional female fashion, especially the Shalvar Kamis, and in this case, the Churidar Kamis. And she was so influential that one appearance in a film,

her first appearance with that, changed fashion worn by young women in India right away. And then there's this incredibly gorgeous, very, very good-looking male heartthrob, Dharmendra. And he makes this film. It's called Phoolor Pathar, which is Flower and Stone in 1966. And it has this amazing scene where he takes his shirt off,

which was really big. For years, that image, that still was reproduced of topless Dharmendra on postcards, on calendars, on all the merch you can imagine. And it's extraordinary because that literally became what he was known for. on postcards, on calendars, on all the merches you can imagine. And it's extraordinary because that literally became what he was known for. Swoon. Yeah, so we've got a topless heartthrob and we've got, how do I pronounce his name? Sadna?

Sadna, yeah. Okay, the fashion trendsetter. Yeah. And I know you've written about Amitabh Bachchan himself, you know, the angry young man who has become an absolute icon. His breakthrough movie, if you want to call it, is Zanjeer the Chain in 1973, which features him as a young cop who is very angry and looking for his parents' murderer. And from that point, he dominates the 70s and the 80s. the 70s and the 80s, he's often, he's called the angry young man, and he plays these roles of this wronged child who grows up into a man looking for justice.

So in The Hugely Successful Dawn, 1978, he plays opposite Zina Thaman and plays a man who gets employed by the police to impersonate a murdered crime boss to bring down a criminal gang. And there's a whole spate of these. But what's really fascinating is in 1982, while filming a scene for the film Cooley, in which his character is a porter at a train station and is meant to die at the end, he had a near fatal injury to his spleen and was incredibly ill for months in hospital. There was such a huge, vast public response to it with lines of well-wishers waiting outside the hospital, prayers being offered across the country and all across all religions, mosques, temples, everything. There was such a huge emotional outpouring that they rewrote the movie to make sure that his character survived. That's a lovely get well soon presence.

We're not going to kill you. Either that or it's avoiding a lawsuit. I don't know how he got injured. They froze the moment where he was actually injured in the film. So you can actually, it freezes and says this is where he was injured. Oh, wow. And then at the end, he shows up on the balcony of the hospital where he had recovered. Oh, wow.

To address this on-screen crowd and thank his wonderful fans. Okay, so that's the sort of, the star is in the movie saying, I'm fine. Thank you. And thank you for your wall wishes. Thank you for your follow. I mean, that's incredible, Poppy. Yeah, that's kind of mental, isn't it? Imagine if you could do that in the Shawshank Redemption.

Yeah. We don't have the power to do that in Hollywood. I don't think that that sort of direct line that Bollywood fans have with Indian cinema in the way that they could change, you know, I'm not saying how, I'm not obviously an expert, but like the fact that that could happen.

Another major, major star would be Shah Rukh Khan, who is like... Heartthrob. I mean, he's King Khan, right? He's known as SRK, King Khan. He's huge, too. And he's, you know, that's a whole other sort of mega level of stardom, isn't it? It is an absolutely mad level of stardom. So Shah Rukh Khan's first success comes in early 90s.

And he starts with playing the anti-hero, the slightly psychopathic, stalkery lover. But in 1995, he switches to a completely different persona, playing the good son, the father, the brother, the sort of the just ruler, if you want to call it that way. He establishes in some, I think possibly some of the biggest top-grossing films of the 1990s, 2000s. There's DDLJ, we talked about earlier, 1995, Dilta Pagal, 1997, Khus Khus Hoda, Mohabat. He took a brief break around about 2017 and he's come back to the screens in 2023 with action blockbusters, Pathan and Javan.

So King Khan is Muslim, a fact that has become especially relevant with the rise of Hindu nationalist politics. He has spoken out against the growing intolerance for Muslims in India. He's been told to go to Pakistan by some BJP politicians as a result, and worse. His wife is Hindu, and he's spoken very openly about raising their children in a multi-faith household. Also in 2021, his eldest son Aryan was arrested on drug charges. And although he was later cleared of these charges, to be very clear, it has been alleged that the officers were trying to blackmail

the family or potentially the charges were politically motivated. He is incredible. I mean, I knew he was of a Muslim background. I actually didn't know that he was speaking out against the BJP's very hyper-nationalistic sort of narrative. So I have even more respect for him, actually. His essay, Inside the Khanate, is extraordinary. Wow. It's very, very... The Khanate.

What's the Khanate? The Khan, the empire. Oh, the Khanate, yes. Oh, clever. Wow, okay. It's very, very... The Khanate. What's the Khanate? The Khan, the empire. Oh, the Khanate, yes. Oh, clever. So, yeah. But you get into trouble when you speak out against Modi, don't you?

And I did get into. And you get harassment and no one within the industry comes to support you. It's not like, you know, when Hollywood had its Me Too moment, everyone came out rallying and supporting those actors. I don't feel like it's

like that as much i think it's it's gone back and forth i think there was a great deal of intimidation i think when his son was arrested i think you saw a switch happening as to who spoke and who didn't and a lot of people started to that that point speak i mean very quickly just to sum up but you know bollywood is an enormous industry. I can't explain how big it is. What is it worth, actually, in terms of its billions? It's more than Hollywood, isn't it? No. I think the finance side is possibly the only place

where Hollywood wins. They've got way bigger budgets. Okay. But in terms of reach, it's 3.6 billion people worldwide watch Bollywood movies. Okay, 1.4 are Indians. But... Come on, Sonny, give us some. That's less than half the

world population, which is pretty big. And yes granted, a third of that is Indians. Same reach as Hollywood. I want to ask Poppy, growing up was Bollywood something that you had to explain to people and now can you talk about these films with people and they know what you're talking about? When I was growing up, Bollywood as an experience as a sort of Indian cinema, it was a very insular thing.

You shared it with your brown friends, cousins, aunties, uncles, mum, dad. You wouldn't tell your black friends or white friends or non-Asian friends about Bollywood. But certainly in the last 10, 15 years, it needs no introduction. And also, you've now, what I was seeing in the early 2000s, the crossover, you know, Priyanka Chopra, Shah Rukh Khan is recognised worldwide in terms of the hierarchy Hollywood was at the top. But now, it needs no introduction.

Everyone knows what Bollywood is. Yeah, it's been quite the history. We went back 2,000 years. 2,000 years, yeah. It's been a while on the old runwood is. Yeah. So it's been quite the history. We went back 2,000 years. 2,000 years, yeah. So, yeah, it's been a while on the old run-up, but yeah, it's amazing. The Nuance Window!

Well, it's time now for The Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Poppy and I act like background extras for two minutes while Professor Sonny takes centre stage to sing us something we need to know about Bollywood. Well, talk if you want, that's fine. My stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. So please take it away, Professor Sunny. I think two things. One, the Indian film audience is extremely sophisticated and has a very profound sense of getting their money's worth,

what we call Pasa Vasul. So that means an average of 700 commercial films are made every year in India, and only a few dozen are popular with the audiences, and even fewer become box office hits. But I think one of the things we need to really remind ourselves about, that there have been some really great blockbusters in the past year. These are very old school and in certain ways, very modern in many technology special effects. But they really have been claiming or reclaiming the values of Bollywood, the multiplicity of identities, the ability to get along with neighbors inside and outside. And of course, all the different bits of politics with linguistic chauvinism, gender, class, all of these. And I think one of the best ways to think about it is Javan, which is the King Khan, Shah Rukh Khan movie. Great stars, huge number of brilliant action sequences, lots of great music. And it's also explicitly political. It has a long straight to camera monologue by its main star, the King Khan himself, but the need for holding elected leaders to account.

Thank you, Sunny. Fascinating. Poppy, any final thoughts? Learn a lot. So I'm just still reeling from that Sunny's two minute monologue, just absorbing. And I think ending it on them holding people to account I think it's never more truer than what we're going through now especially in Indian cinema to hold someone to account and be brave enough to do it is something to be celebrated so what do you know now it's time now for the quiz. Oh, God. This is the So What Do You Know Now.

Oh, my God. This is where we put Poppy through the ringer to see how much she has remembered. You have been making, I'm not even going to call them notes, you've got an essay over there. I just scribble things down and I can't read my writings. I'm stuffed. Oh, God. Okay.

Well, we've got ten questions for you. Let's see how much you've managed to read off your own notes. So 10 questions. Here we go. Question one. What is the name of the ancient Sanskrit text that lays out many principles of India performance in 6,000 verses? The Natya Shastra. Yes, right.

The Natya Shastra. Yeah. Well done. Question two. In what decade did filmmaking arrive in India? 1896. Question three. 1913 saw the release of Raja Harishchandra.

What was important about it? It was the first feature film by Dada Salfke, the director. You're getting director names and everything. So the note-taking is working. Yeah, it's working. I'm reading my writing. That's all we're learning from this. All right.

Let's see if we can do this one from memory. At four hours long, how many songs were there? 71. There we go, see? That's the film Indra Sapa, so 71 songs. Question five, what fashion trends did 60s star Sada popularise? The Churida. Yeah.

Question six, what was an item number in a Bollywood film? An item number usually is a big set piece. It's a song, it's a musical, it's a dance number. A big star unrelated to the story in the plot line will often make an appearance to drive sales. Absolutely. Question seven. How did filmmakers sneak in political messages

past colonial era censors? Through the music? Yeah. Yeah, through the song. Oh, and the printed lyric books. Yeah. Lyrical textbooks. Very, very good.

Question eight. Which star found fame in the 1970s playing an angry young man? Amitabh Bachchan. It was. Question nine. In the 1930s, Indian filmmakers often collaborated with industry experts from which European country? Germany. It was Germany.

This for a perfect ten. What nickname is Bollywood heartthrob Shah Rukh Khan known by? Can I get two guesses? Is it SRK? It is, or? King Khan. Yay, there we go. 10 out of 10, Poppy J. So nervous. You really do put people through the wringer. You're aced it. Oh, you're an excellent teacher, professor.

No, it was really fascinating. Thank you so much. I learned lots as well. I'm really very grateful for your knowledge, Sunny. It's been a joy. And listener, if after today's episode you want more about Indian history, we've done episodes on the Mughal Empire and the ancient Indus civilisation. Both of those were really fun.

For more film history mixed in with politics, we've got one on Paul Robeson, which I loved doing. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the sensational Professor Sunny Singh from London Metropolitan University.

Thank you, Sunny. Thank you. It was great fun. It was great fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the fantastic Poppy Jay. Thank you, Poppy. Thank you so much for having me. And listen to Poppy's podcast on BBC Sound. It's great fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the fantastic Poppy Jay. Thank you, Poppy. Thank you so much for having me. And listen to Poppy's podcast on BBC Sounds. It's called Brown Girls Do It Too.

It's very, very funny. Quite naughty, but you know. Quite naughty, yes. Yeah, maybe not with kids in the car. Yeah, definitely not with kids in the car. The fact that I've not been able to swear during this entire hour has been nothing short of a miracle, actually. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we load another

historical epic into our You're Dead to Me film projector. But for now, I'm off to the Swiss Alps to serenade my lover with 71 songs. They're all going to sound quite samey. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Madeleine Bracey. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse

and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Caitlin Hobbs. It was produced by Emmyeline bracy it was written by emmy rose price goodfellow emma naguse and me the audio producer was steve hanky and our production coordinator was caitlin hops it was produced by emmy rose price goodfellow me and senior producer emma naguse and our executive editor was chris ledger On This Cultural Life from BBC Radio 4, leading artists and performers reveal their creative inspirations. I saw something that was so beyond what I was being taught at school. Discuss their best-known work. I do get messages all the time saying, this is our life.

The Handmaid's Tale is already here. And reflect on their own cultural lives. Rock stars need to be simply drawn. They can't be too complex. Join me, John Wilson, and my guests including Nick Cave, Stephen Fry, Margaret Atwood, Florence Pugh, Paul McCartney and Whoopi Goldberg. I always knew I was going to be a character actor. I never thought I was going to be a famous movie person. This Cultural Life. Listen on BBC Sounds. I was going to be a character actor. I'd never thought I was going to be a famous movie person.

This cultural life. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. If you're after more fascinating stories from the past

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