You're Dead to Me - Madam C.J. Walker

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined by Professor Noliwe Rooks and comedian Athena Kugblenu to learn all about the life and business savvy of nineteenth-century Black American haircare entrepreneur Madam C. J. Walker. After working as a sales agent for another haircare brand, Walker founded her own company, selling products to help Black women look after their hair and becoming incredibly wealthy in the process. But how did she make so much money, and what did she spend it on? From impoverished beginnings to a lavish villa in New York, via her charitable and political work, this episode charts Walker's journey to becoming the first self-made woman millionaire in American history. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Andrew Himmelberg Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon Pull-Apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks with a small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. As women, our life stages come with unique risk factors. Like when our estrogen levels drop during menopause, causing the risk of heart disease to go up.

Know your risks. Visit heartandstroke.ca. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today we're jumping into our Ford Model team and motoring back to 19th century America to learn all about the brilliantly successful black hair care entrepreneur, Madam C.J. Walker. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's the L. Herbert Ballou University Professor of Africana Studies at Brown University in America. She researches the cultural and racial

implications of beauty, fashion and adornment, as well as race, capitalism and education. You may have read one of her many books, including Hair Raising, Beauty, Culture and African American Women. It's Professor Noliwe Rooks. Welcome, Noliwe. Thank you so much for having me. Absolute pleasure to have you here. And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian and writer. You'll have heard her loads on BBC Radio 4 and on all the podcasts, including The Guilty Feminist and her own show, Keeping Athena Company.

You may have seen her on the telly on Mock the Week. And of course, you'll remember her from her starring roles on our previous episodes about the Haitian Revolution, Matsumusa, and in Jenga of Ndongo Matamba, it's Athena Kablenu. Welcome back, Athena. Fourth time lucky. I know. Thank you for having me back. Thank you. Well, we love having you on. We discovered last time round you self-identify as a history nerd. I do, yes. But now I'm afraid because you're going to ask me questions, aren't you? To make me prove it. One of us. One of us. Yeah. Today we're on American history. So I'm curious, are you comfortable in 19th century American history, 20th century American history? I'm going to say you've made a mistake today. You've hired two experts.

Oh, no. I have seen the Netflix account of Madam C.J. Walker's life with Octavia Spencer. So I kind of feel like no one's going to be funny today. It'll just be two people who know everything about her life. Sorry. I guess I'll try and be funny. I don't know.

So, what do you know? I'll try and be funny. I don't know. So, what do you know? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. If you're listening from the US, hello, welcome, thank you.

You're probably going to know about Madam C.J. Walker. I think she's quite a big deal stateside, but I think probably less well-known outside of America. If you're a fan of the Guinness World Records, you might know that Madam C.J. Walker was the first American woman to be a self-made millionaire. But how did Madam C.J. Walker rise from rags to riches? What did she splash her cash on? And when exactly did Jesus Christ himself get into the hair care business? Let's find out. So, Professor Noliwe, we don't meet many babies called Madam, so that's not going to be her name at birth. So who was she and what was her origin story, please?

Yes, no, she was not named Madam at birth. She was actually named Sarah, Sarah Breedlove. And she was born in December of 1867 in Delta, Louisiana. Her family were sharecroppers, which was a system that meant that they farmed the land they lived on and then paid rent to the people who actually owned the land. When she was born, she was the only one who was not born into slavery. She was the first one in her family that was actually born free and is considered a US citizen at birth. And her birthday was only days before the five year anniversary of Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, which had freed the enslaved black people of America in January of 1863. Athena, she was born free, but her siblings hadn't been.

Do you know when like your little siblings get an easier life than you? That's the ultimate version of that, isn't it? Yeah. I wonder what that does to the family dynamic. But surely at that point you celebrate it, right? Would her siblings have celebrated the opportunities she would therefore have? She and her siblings do not appear to have been close. And unfortunately, it's not clear how close she

was with her parents. They died within 18 months of each other. And so she was orphaned at the time she was about eight. She had to move in with one of her older sisters and her sister's husband, a man named Jesse Powell. When as an older person, Sarah talked about her childhood, she talked about him as cruel in ways that seemed to be a euphemism for different kinds of serious abuse. The family soon moved across the river to Vicksburg, Mississippi, but the white community there wasn't really enthusiastic about all of the legal gains that Black people had made. And so using both politics, elections, and just naked violence, they really tried to roll back the ability of Black people to vote, the ability

of Black people to own land, the ability of Black people to go to school. A lot of Black people just picked up and left that area of the country. And this included all three of Sarah's brothers. Jesse, the person described as cruel, even though Sarah was only 11 when all of this was going on, he demanded that she economically contribute to the household income. That's tough. So it's a rags to riches fairy tale that we're hoping to get in the end. But it's beginning with an orphan girl working for her keep, only 11. What kind of job do you think she was doing at 11, Athena?

Oh, God, I can only imagine. I mean, I don't think I had paper rounds in those days. I mean, now you'd get a Saturday job, wouldn't you? I feel like it would be something laborious, something that is bad for your nails and your hands. Good instincts. It was laundress. So she's doing the scrubbing, the labour, the cleaning the clothes.

It is the lowest of the low, kind of the worst job you can get on the ladder. But at least she's escaped from her cruel brother-in-law. I mean, how do you think she then tries to get away from him? OK, let me get into the mind of a young person who has a horrible job and wants to get away. It's not a man, is it? Please don't say it's a man. Like, oh, no, it is. She finds a guy and goes, you'll do.

Have you read the script? Yeah, that's exactly what happens. Very Cinderella move. She marries the first man she sees. Not a handsome prince. Don't do it, Sarah. No glass slipper required. Unfortunately, also, she's only 14.

Oh, no. So I have to honk my problematic marriage klaxon. So she's only 14 and she marries her not-so-Prince Charming. Niliwe, does this man live up to my Disney expectations? This is the frog that never turns into a prince. Oh, no. Her Prince Charming was named Moses McWilliams, probably at least in his 20s. They stayed married a few years.

By the time she was 18, she and Moses had one daughter, Lilia, the only child that she would ever have. And then in 1888, Moses died. Sarah ends up a widow and a single mother at the age of 20. But her name is now Sarah McWilliams. This is the worst fairy tale ever, Athena. It is. But does she move away with this guy? Because even though she's with him, surely she's still around, like, these brothers who are horrible to her. She's in the Vicksburg, but she's left the home of all family members. I'm clinging to the fact that she's going to end up successful and a millionaire, apparently, according to the Guinness Book of World Records.

But we're still a long way from that happy ever after. So where does this young single mother, this young widow, what does she do with her life next, Noeliwe? So Sarah and her young daughter, Lilia, get on a steamboat heading north up to St. Louis. What they're doing is following in the footsteps of Sarah's brothers, who were well established there and they worked as barbers. They worked in a black community there as barbers. Sarah moved into one of the poorest areas in the city and took a job as a laundress. Again, work she knew how to do. It was considered the lowest status, the lowest form of work. But this is the work that was available to her. And so she had to also, because it didn't pay

very much, keep moving house. So for much of the next decade, she worked six days a week as a washerwoman and went to church on her Sunday day off. She was very, very religious and was always a member of an African Methodist Episcopal church throughout her entire life. Because obviously at the beginning we said she was born into freedom, right? But there doesn't seem to be a lot of freedom, does it? Like she doesn't seem to be a lot of freedom does it like she doesn't seem to have a lot of life choices you know what i said earlier about oh her brothers might look have looked at her as like oh you know you've been born into like a new america but it's actually it's just the same america with different paperwork yeah you know the admin is a little different but i've got a question because i thought she didn't like her brothers but she

went up to be in the same town as them. So what was the incentive to have proximity to them? Family is family. You might need a kidney. You might need a kidney. So 1889, she's moved up to St. Louis. Is that Missouri? Yes. I know that because of Nelly.

Okay, cool. Six days a week working in laundry, Sundays at church. But in 1894, aged 27, she finds herself a new fella. He's called John Davis. I'm feeling more hopeful, Athena. Oh, girl. I mean, you know, she was widowed at 20, 21. Yeah.

So six years. So that meant she looked like she must have in those six years, you know, done some real swiping, you know, whatever the equivalent of swiping was back then. So she didn't just jump into the next guy's trying to find the word that's appropriate. DMs? Yes. Don't say pants.

Don't say pants. Next guy's bloomers. Yeah, six years. So I'm assuming that there was some quality control there. No, anyway, is John Davis a higher standard of man? Very soon after she got married, she regretted the marriage almost instantly. John struggled a lot. He couldn't quite find work.

She still had to work as a laundress. He also had another girlfriend on top of all of this. Times have always been tough. It's not just now, guys. Times have been tough for 150 years. I feel good about that. He's got another lady. But to make it even worse, like he the little bit of money that Sarah is making as a laundress, he's taking it and dividing it between both women. So he's taking the money and using Sarah's money to support.

And then more seriously, because it gets worse. He was an alcoholic and he was abusive when drunk. And then in 1903, he claimed that Sarah had deserted him despite him being the one with the girlfriend. And this was the end of Sarah and John's six year relationship. And she went back to being called Sarah McWilliams. This woman cannot catch a break. She can't catch a break. And I think the great and lyricist said, to the left, to the left. You know, a patch of stuff is in a box to the left.

She should have done that before he did it to her and it's a lesson for us all. But I think not to be serious about it, there's something to be said about when people are very working class and poor, it is hard for them to be good partners. They don't have any money. They probably have grown up with their own struggles and traumas and have PTSD and all

these things. By the way, i still blame the men but just to contextualize her struggles she's a hard-working woman you know she's independent she obviously wants to be in a situation where she's in some kind of heteronormative situation with a partner and that is more secure and she can't catch that break and that's really sad but i know it works out doesn't it i know it works out we're clinging to that aren't we absolutely going it's gonna work out right well she's oh maybe she shows them that she never needed them in the first place maybe well in 1902 sarah she has moved on she has dumped john davis and um she's in her mid-30s now prime prime she's flirty yeah 30 something she's thriving singling mingling see. And she meets another man.

And this guy is called Charles Joseph Walker. CJ Walker. Are you getting good vibes? At this stage, no. Assume I don't know the story. At this stage, I'm like, why are you still meeting men? But it sounds promising because I'm assuming that this is the Walker of her Walker name. Unless it's her brother.

That would be weird. She goes through all the walkers. Just goes through the phone book. Are you single? No. Are we related? Yeah, I think you're spot on there. Noliwe, this is the walker that will become her family name. He's made something of himself.

This is a relationship that's going to go somewhere. Is that fair? Yes, this is her last marriage. So there's at least that. And Charles was, in the census, describes him as a newsman. And it's likely that he worked for one of St. Louis's three black newspapers, probably a newspaper at the time called The Clarion. He was known, people around who were writing about him at the time said he had a lot of charisma and that

he had a lot of drive he was a working man so so how soon to act my mum always said beware of a charming man okay beware a charming man unfortunately your mother was not there for sarah at the time but things are starting to look up for her because, you know, he wants to build a future. She does. He's working there. They're together. He has charisma. And so she is a new, better relationship, a strong community at church still. And she's more free time because by this point, Lilia, her daughter, is away at boarding school. And as a religious woman, she seems to have been invested in a Christian ideal of self-improvement, as well as being motivated to do more for the general black community. A'Lelia Bundles, who is her biographer, says this is when Sarah started to work to improve her circumstances.

This is when Sarah, as we know her, takes the first step on the path to become Madam C.J. Walker. first step on the path to become Madam C.J. Walker. And the start of that journey is being a sales agent for another black beauty entrepreneur called Annie Malone. Is that right? Yes. Yes. So in in St. Louis in 1903, Sarah starts working as a sales agent for a woman named Annie Turnbull Malone, selling hair care products door to door to other Black women. Sarah had dandruff and she had psoriasis of the scalp, as did other Black women. And so she wanted to show her hair instead of having it wrapped up all the time. She wanted healthy hair, a healthy scalp. And white-owned companies in this period, while pretending to be Black-owned, often told Black women, you know, you should just straighten your hair or use our products for your hair. But Malone and later Madam Walker, the niche that they came

up with was providing products that actually nourished and helped manage Black hair and not just control it. Was door-to-door sales generally a thing or was that innovative as well at that time? No, this is a woman a few years before named Estee Lauder. Oh, yeah, I know her. Yeah, my mum likes her stuff, unfortunately. She had actually started this as an immigrant woman as a way of making ends meet on the East Coast in the US. She was sort of the first, but Malone and Walker are the first black people going door to door in black communities. You can't do that now. People don't answer the door now. Who is it? Oh, God, don't answer the door, turn off the lights.

She did it at the right time. She'd waited 150 years. She would not be a millionaire. But also, you said, Noliwe, there were white businesses pretending to be black businesses to sell to the black community. I guess if you're door to door and you show your face, people can see you're from the community. Yes, that is true. Well, there we go. OK. Sarah, who now we might want to start referring to Madam Walker, perhaps. She often would tell a compelling origin story of where she learned the formula for her own own hair salve for her scalp do you want to

guess what this story is i want to say that she got a vision but i don't feel who would give you the vision there's nobody there's no kind of spiritual god that is like hey do you want better hair but at the end of the day like hairlines are important i mean my hairlines go and i wouldn't mind a vision now to be honest was it like you know Was it like an accidental discovery, like Marmite? The Marmite one is like someone tasted a residue for some reason and they said it was delicious. Why they put it in their mouth, no idea. But they did and we're all grateful.

So was it just she just accidentally put something in her hair and she woke up and her hair doubled in length? You were closer with your vision. No, it's impossible. None other than Jesus Christ himself comes to her in a dream. He had great hair. He has great hair. Whether you see a black Jesus or a white Jesus,

the one consistent thing is the hair is good. Yeah. Anyway, I'm familiar with Christ offering salvation, but not so much salves. Black people are hilarious. What did Jesus tell you? Oh, he told me how to deal with my ends. Yeah, so tell us about black Jesus and his hair care routines, please.

So Sarah said that one night she was praying for a solution to her hair problems, her hair falling out, having dandruff, psoriasis. That evening she had a dream and black Jesus, Jesus, who as he appeared to her was a black man man and gave her a secret recipe for a hair salve. She got the ingredients, made up the recipe, tried it on herself, tried it on her friends and family. It worked wonders. Hair grew forth. Scalps were healthy. And all of the ingredients she needed for it were accessible right there in St. Louis, since it was second only to New York City in the number of pharmaceutical houses and chemical suppliers during the period. So all of this happened while Sarah was still working for Annie Malone. Now, Annie became angry and challenged the story of Jesus giving birth.

No! It sounds so legit! Annie wanted the world to know that Sarah stole the recipe from her. The real reason for the success of both women's products was likely their promotion of a regime of regular shampoos and scalp massages. Both of their products used a sulfur-based formula that neither had invented, but both became fierce rivals for the rest of their career after this supposed betrayal. Can I ask a question? Yeah.

I think we can establish who was telling the truth by understanding what the ingredients were. So my question is, were the ingredients frankincense, gold and myrrh? Because if they were, it probably was Jesus. So is that the case? I love the idea that Jesus was given those as a baby and spent the rest of his 33 years trying to re-gift them. He's like, I've just been carrying around three metric tonnes of frankincense that I don't need.

Yeah, so hallelujah, praise Jesus, he has saved her. Or Sarah has stolen the recipe from her boss you choose have you ever had a divine dream i think anything ever come to you i dream every night manically and vividly and god forbid any of those dreams come true like they're all basically i've never had a decent vision but i'd like my visions to be have more practical use in my life okay well you need to be a laundress six days a week for ten years, I think, and then on the Sunday... I have two kids. I am.

That's exactly what I am. Good answer. OK, so after her divine encounter in July 1905, Sarah boarded a train for Denver with a pocket full of dreams and a bag full of Annie Malone's hair care products. To what extent is she heading out on her own? And to what extent is she meant to be there selling Annie's products? She definitely borrowed the business idea, but she did make her own products.

And then when she got to Denver, she went back to cooking and washing jobs to make ends meet. One of the people who she most likely worked for was a chemist, and he helped her come up with her own formula that bore no relationship to Annie Malone's. She also opened a small workshop and started to focus on making and selling her own products door to door. She probably had good customer networks because she had been selling Malone's products. had good customer networks because she had been selling Malone's products. By January of 1906, she and Charles Walker were married, and she started marketing her Walker's Wonderful Hair Grower through newspaper advertisements. And that's the first time she starts calling herself Madam C.J. Walker. She quickly found success, and her husband was helpful, not just because he gave her both of his names.

Young Lilia also took on the Walker surname and joined her mother's business by age 21, becoming a key member throughout her life. The Walker business was multifaceted. It manufactured hair care products, sold them door to door, trained sales agents, agents did mail orders and also taught hair care at salons that they opened wow i've got a question yeah patents or patents yeah where does that come into it because somebody has a recipe for a hair formula and it works isn't there a bit of paper or was it that it's like the wild west and nobody you can't patent hair stuff yeah there was no actual patents on any of these what the fight was over from annie malone's perspective was that the marketing and infrastructure ideas were exactly the same so walker claiming that

she was the first that she was the inventor of going door to door that she was the first black woman to invent hair care, beauty culture. That's what Malone was most upset about. Okay, we could spin Sarah as a bit of a villain here, but I don't think I want to. I feel like she's had a really, really hard life and she's found something she's good at. She's finally making money doing a thing that matters. And we can see one of the products too. Is it going to be like a before and after do you want to describe that for the listener yeah well first of all i'm going to say they still package black women's hair products in the same way similar so what i can see is it's a

beautiful yellow tin and i can see somebody with hair with so much volume literally she has just stepped out the salon and it's thick and it's straight but i still see texture and it says madam cj walker's wonderful hair grower take my money let's literally take that i want to take my money um no leeway is this sarah on the tin or is this a model do we know no no no that's sarah that's a young madam walker there and then later you'll see alelia her daughter becomes one of the main models. So it was one of the earliest times where you had a black woman's image on the sort of like the Oprah of hair manufacturing. Her celebrity, her face is as much of a selling point as is the product. Yes, she is the product. It's her name, well it's her husband's name, but it's her name,

it's her face, it's her product. Annie Malone's business model, but it's her product. She looks like she's saying, I dare you to buy something else. She's actually going, I dare you to pick up something else. I've seen that face before when it's the Athena, you forgot to take the chicken out the freezer face. But also the crucial thing there, it says manufactured in Indianapolis. Is that where she's moved her company? Why Indianapolis? Indianapolis. Is that where she's moved her company? Why Indianapolis? So she left Denver in about 1906. And she travels around and she's popularizing her products. And Sarah and Charles arrive in Indianapolis around 1910. And they get a warm welcome from the local

black community. And there's great industrial conditions there. So they established their headquarters. And because Indianapolis had a pretty large Black population, this was crucial to their success. One of the reasons that they actually left Denver was because of its small Black community. It was also because as soon as Walker started to do well in Denver, Annie Malone came along and set up a rival salon right across town. Annie, let it go. So they picked up and moved to Indianapolis and things went well. Yeah, I mean, Annie, as I understand it, was in the same street. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, right next door, actually.

Yeah, she came and bought a bigger place literally right next door. Although Walker said that when Annie Malone did not run her out of Denver, she was pulled to better opportunities. Okay, okay. What's really sad here is there's space for kind of both of them to be millionaires, but she was, yes, it was the resentment. It was like vengeance. Yeah, there was a proper business rivalry that went beyond simply quarterly sales figures.

Madam C.J. Walker survives the rivalry. And by 1911, the company is thriving and it becomes incorporated, too. It becomes a registered company. That's a big deal for a woman whose family were enslaved and she's come from a hard, scrabble life. Yes, yes. It's quite a turnaround. That's a part of why she's so popular is because it really is a big turnaround story.

So by 1911, the company's incorporated and Madam has a factory in Indianapolis. She is 950 sales agents. She's got thousands of customers, multiple hair parlors and a substantial personal net worth. And she had really made it as a businesswoman. So what were the Christmas parties like? Because that's a lot of people you've got to entertain. It just feels like, was this growth exponential? Yes.

In 1912, she'd earned $11,000 in a year. But by April 1913, she'd already earned that in four months. So she's trebling her figures year on year almost. It's really, really fast growth. But while the business is doing great guns, Noliwe, we once again have to say the men in her life, bitter disappointment. Yeah, so she was a business genius, obviously, but her marriage radar might not have been great. So the way the story goes is that while he was on a business trip in 1912, Charles met a woman named Dora Larry. And Dora actually ran the Walker Salon on the campus of Tuskegee University in Birmingham, Alabama. While there, Dora convinced Charles that Sarah was treating him badly and that he should

join forces with her. It's on him. All right. It's not Dora. Okay. Like, oh, I didn't, I didn't want to do it, but she told me you were horrible. No. Find another excuse. She told him that Sarah's treating you badly and that, you know, Charles should leave Sarah and join forces with her both personally and professionally. She wants to go into hair care because she worked for Madam Walker. She now knew how to make and do Walker's hair treatments. So, of course, it didn't take long for Sarah to discover that Charles and Dora were having this affair. And she confirmed it by actually listening through the keyhole at their hotel room in Atlanta. Again, we're told that she came very close to almost shooting Charles, but she thought better of it. But she did go back to Indianapolis immediately

and begin divorce proceedings. One of the things that she carried out of the divorce was the name cj walker madam cj walker and the branding because it was so much a part of her business and her branding so she dumped him but kept the name yeah like tina tina turner yeah i came into this room thinking surely i'm gonna leave liking men more surely Surely. You know, that's always, I always hang out with Greg, I think men are okay. You know, and now it's like, oh gosh, you know, I mean. But what, like, she made him, right?

Like, he's probably attractive to Dora because of what she did for him, right? Can I tell you my conspiracy theory? Yes. Dora was hired by Annie Malone to destroy the marriage and seduce him and to to destroy the marriage and to break up the marriage and to break up the business that's my i can't prove it but that's my belief well we are at a time when women aren't supposed to be more dominant than men and maybe he just wasn't

progressive enough to want to have to live with a woman's money back then i imagine he would have been he would have felt emasculated maybe maybe, not to make excuses for him, but just to contextualise his behaviour. No, I like that you've brought an empathy to exploring why some of the men in her life maybe are... You've got to, otherwise you'll be looking for that firearms, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, she nearly shot him. So let's be honest, it could have gotten worse. She could have been in jail, running her business from behind bars. So Sarah Walker, she's keeping the name. She's dumped her cheating husband.

The business is thriving. And in 1913, along comes the introduction of a brand new federal income tax, which obviously it's important to pay your taxes. But Noliwe, does she pay her taxes or does she sort of keep it all hidden from the taxman? I think it's a little bit of both. So I'm going to write this down. So what exactly does she do? Like exactly, word for word, please. Well, her lawyer advised her to, quote unquote, keep a little mum about her annual income. Since the new tax was on personal earnings that are greater than $3,000, since the annual wage at the time was only about $800, Madam Walker would have been one of only a small number of citizens who had to even pay the tax. And she would have even been a smaller percentage who would have had to pay the tax at a higher rate. So he said, just keep it to yourself.

Look, you say tax evasion i say reparations yes thank you and if hmrc is listening um yeah i'm going into hiding you might not see me for a while well she's probably bringing in we think something like 35 000 a year so the tax rate is 3 000 to the cutoff so she's 10 times what you know so she's on the marginal tax rate there yeah i i i'm not good at maths but i agree it's quite hard to hide 32 000 probably what would you spend your money you know 1913 stuff what would you spend your cash on oh yeah a go for? Oh yeah a horse and cart a big house a horse and cart I'm just thinking it is the model T Ford

oh of course it is so I'd buy ten of them in different colours obviously they didn't have a roof so whatever is the equivalent of a convertible car when cars don't have roofs the seats go back or something in a previous episode, we did.

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. As women, our life stages come with unique risk factors, like high blood pressure developed during pregnancy, which can put us two times more at risk of heart disease or stroke. Know your risks. Visit heartandstroke.ca. The Harlem Renaissance. And we spoke about Lilia, her daughter, throwing these big lavish parties in Harlem and really living the life. So Noliwe, does Lilia learn from her mum? Is Sarah starting to splash the cash and, you know, host these kind of lavish soirees? And how affluent are we talking? So, you know, they both like to live a life of luxury,

and they spent money on cars and real estate, including a home on 136th Street in New York and Harlem. They were among the first Black property owners in that area, and Sarah, now known as Madam Walker, moved there in 1916. Lilia also spent a lot renovating the house and the salon that opened in Harlem, and she decorated with the finest art and furniture. in Harlem, and she decorated with the finest art and furniture. Madam Walker started throwing lavish parties every April when Lilia visited the Indianapolis headquarters, where she hosted prominent Black musicians, dancers, poets, and performers. She enjoyed treating Lilia, but there was always a condition attached that seemed something like, I've brought you this expensive present, now I need you to do something business related for me. But by this point, Madam Walker wanted to be seen as wealthy,

influential and important. And black newspapers and magazines helped to propagate this image of her. So basically, it's like you get to have nice things like here's a new watch. Yeah. But you've got to take out the trash like that okay business related so maybe you've got to open a new salon oh right you gotta you gotta you gotta help me evade this tax you're gonna exactly yeah well so by this point A'Lelia was the model for the Walker company and she had the best hair ever and they were constantly trying to drag her into studios to shoot and A'Lelia kept pushing back she wanted to live her life have parties be grown and so some of the bribing had to do with

come take this picture so we can keep keep the money you know rolling in I'm not feeling sorry for the daughter you know what I mean it's basically like you can have whatever you want just do a little thing every now and again for the business have your picture taken do you know what I mean imagine if like Kim Kardashian was, mum, I'm not doing it. Get these cameras out of the house. So I kind of feel like this daughter, is she like, parents often look at their middle class kids and go, oh, you've got no idea.

Is this what's happening here? Is Madam CJ Walker looking at her daughter and going, I wash sheets for this. Sent you to school. You're right. And of course, Sarah, or Madam CJ Walker, she's now known because that's just her name now. She's taken it.

She's going to build herself a bougie. Correction, she's earned that. She's earned it. From her husband. She acquired it in a business deal. She is going to build herself a house, a dream house. What do you think it's going to look like, Athena? What's the aesthetic design you think? I think she's tasteful. Okay. It's not going to look like, Athena? What's the aesthetic design you think?

I think she's tasteful. Okay. It's not going to look like... Barbie Dreamcastle? No. Something regal. Palatial. Oh.

I'm going to say Taj Mahal. Oh, wow. Okay. We can see a couple of photos, actually. When I first saw this, I immediately thought of Uncle Phil's house in Fresh Prince of Helena. Yes. Oh, yeah.

I mean, that is tasteful, actually. Do you want to describe it for us? It literally looks like Uncle Phil's house in Fresh Prince. You're absolutely right. It's got columns, Roman columns. And it's got a balcony at the top. I can see the back of the house. Now, she is clearly throwing, at the time this picture

has been taken, a massive party we're talking uh like you know jg does that lunch um every year it's like the annual jay-z lunch everyone goes to it's like that but there's no room for nibbles there's no this it's standing room only it's yeah i'd love to know what's happening here at this time yeah it's packed it looks like the white house in the front and it looks like a kind of Italian villa in the back. You are spot on. The house was called Villa Luaro. It was located in a place called Irvington, New York. It took some years to build, but it was finished in 1918 and designed by a black architect called Wirtner Gantandi. And it was in a really fancy area. Literally the Rockefellers, who are millionaires many times over, live right up the road. And the way it got its name, Villa Luaro, was celebrity Italian opera singer Enrico Caruso came and visited the property with Lilia because she hung out with people like that.

When he came, he said he was reminded of his homeland. So that's where the word villa came from. The house cost a fortune and garnered criticism. But Sarah said it was built as a monument to Black success and what could be achieved. And so in this image that you described where there is hardly any room to move, this is all of the Walker employees, as many as could make their way to the East Coast. It's all of the salespeople, the folks who go door to door, the people who work in different offices around the country. She threw a massive party for all of them, so they could see what they were working so hard for, what they were building collectively, but also just as a way to say thank you.

Was she a good employer? Because some employers will treat you nice one day of the year, and then the rest of the time, they'll be just horrible to you. Like, did people wake up in the morning and think, I'm so happy to go to work for Madam CJ Walker? The thing about most of the people in her business is they end up being sort of freelancers, or I don't know what the term would be. A franchise would probably be a better way. You sort of paid some money to the company, you got some of the products, but it allowed people who had a certain kind of drive, a certain kind of charm, and who wanted to have some freedom around their economic life, any Black woman could buy into it and start to build a base.

So it wasn't so much that she was everyone's boss, that they were coming into like the devil wears Prada kind of like coming into the office. And, you know, people are yelling at them. Her model was much more about just empowering her workers to stand on their own. And they were quite fond of her. It was very successful in that regard. It's Annie Malone, isn't it? Like Annie Malone wanted it all for herself, right?

But, you know, Madam C.J. Walker's gone, actually, you can have it, just give me a percentage of what you sell. And then you can come out to my house, but don't steal the cutlery. Because if I'd had that many of my employees in my house, I'd have had a metal detector. You have to be real i am your boss you're going to nick something right security guards in the bedroom yeah absolutely i suppose what's quite interesting is we have madame walker throwing these lavish parties these you know and lilia or later alilia throwing these celebrity parties where opera singers and celebs and actors and playwrights and poets and intellectuals

all hanging out so she's the hostess with the mostest. But there's a certain element of real anxiety for Sarah because she doesn't feel she belongs. Imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome alert. We all have it. Mine is to a slightly lesser scale. You know, I've got a six burner hob and sometimes I'm like, do I deserve these two extra hobs that I don't use? I, you know, I often question what I did to deserve such a big cooker. You know, it's not quite the same thing as having a house of columns. But I think, yeah, she's only one generation removed from slavery,

as Averwees said. So I'm actually pleased to hear that she's questioning her purpose. And I think it's rational. I often, whilst I'm making my spaghetti, stare at my cooker and feel guilty. Clearly not that guilty because that's literally the only trappings of my success. That's it. That's the one victory. Six hobs.

Noliwe, I think we have here someone who's come such a long way from her childhood of poverty and now hanging out with these brilliant people, a lot of whom are intellectuals. How does she get around this fear of being in their company and feeling like she's not educated? Yeah, I mean, she was someone who just hadn't even had the benefit

of the most rudimentary kind of formal education. So she hires a tutor in secret, a woman named Alice Kelly, who was also the forelady in one of her factories. Because she wanted to be involved with the Black intelligentsia, she had to figure out how to ingratiate herself with leaders like Booker T. Washington. In January 1912, Washington held a gathering that was called the Negro Farmers Conference. And this was at Tuskegee Institute, a school that he had founded, HBCU founded for newly free Black people. Walker wanted to go and speak about her products, but she received a very curt refusal from him. So she showed up at his home to hand him a letter because she wanted to persuade him to let her speak. And she wanted for him to know that she thought of herself as a former farmer who had made something of herself.

And she wanted to highlight the work she was doing for the black community. And this work, this gumption worked for her and she got to speak for 10 minutes. But then later that year, Walker was snubbed again at the 13th Annual National Negro Business League Convention in Chicago. She was only one of a few delegates to arrive in a chauffeur driven Model T car. But she discovered that while three other hair care manufacturers had been chosen to speak, she hadn't. But by the 14th conference, Booker T. Washington welcomed her with open arms and gave her a chance to speak. At that one, at the one in 1914, she was given the title of the foremost businesswoman of our race. So how much of this

struggle for acceptance was actually just because she was a woman and how much of it was because she wasn't felt to be educated? Because I feel like it's probably both. Yeah, I definitely think it's both. You just didn't have people at the higher echelons of the business world who didn't have a certain level of education, but also to have a woman who was completely in charge. Because remember, at this point, Charles is out of the picture. So no one can start saying, oh, he's really the brains of the operation. Everyone knew that this was her, she was doing it on her own. And it was unsettling to some, certainly. So Madam CJ Walker, the foremost businesswoman of our race, pop that on your letterhead. That's great, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you qualify that. I'd probably take exceptions to that title. I mean, imagine that on your email signature. I guess Annie Malone would be furious to hear that title has gone. Well, you know, I wanted to be... Yeah, you wouldn't even conceive that that exists as a title. OK, so Madam Walker, you know, she wants to do good. And that charitable element of giving, to a certain extent, is good for the brand. Let's be honest, it is good to be seen to be generous, but it's genuine too.

She absolutely, she did a lot of charity work and she wasn't quiet about it. We know she did a lot of charity work because she told us she did a lot of charity work. Among other things, she gave a thousand dollars for a new YMCA to be built in Indianapolis. She contributed to the NAACP, National Association of Colored People's anti-lynching campaign. She regularly distributed food baskets to poor neighbors around Christmas. She actually talked about and saw her company as a form of philanthropy. And she believed that by giving Black women sales jobs and teaching them to be hairdressers, that she was helping them to avoid lives of hard labor in domestic service or in

factories. And so from 1917, she also held annual conferences to encourage her sales agents to support political causes. And they would spend mornings discussing business and afternoons discussing politics in the public sessions. Yeah, absolutely approved. But a reminder that charitable donations, tax deductible. Just in case anyone's thinking about how to lower that bill. just in case anyone's thinking about how to lower that bill she's using her money to help people who need it you know ymca and a i mean it's the anti-lynching campaign that's really i mean that's that's a hugely important oh it's massive and sorry to interrupt but i'm a big fan of giving loudly if i buy a 10 000 pound jumper and that logo is on my shirt that should be quiet but if i give 10 grand to the anti-lynching league i need

to tell people about that i think we should all be loud about how much we give and people be like what have you given recently and i'll be quiet now but i don't have anything just the hop that's all i have the six burn a hop yeah available from your house i mean we then in 1917 no leeway we've got her holding this annual convention where she's teaching politics you know in the afternoons but we also get america entering the first world war what took you so long we've got her holding this annual convention where she's teaching politics, you know, in the afternoons. But we also get America entering the First World War. What took you so long? We've been fighting this since 1914. But still, you know, I'm over it. It's okay. How does our sort of philanthropist respond to this new national crisis? Really, what she did is she started to give money to improve conditions for black servicemen who

were serving under conditions of Jim Crow segregation in the military. She bought $4,000 worth of war bonds. By the end of September of 1917, she attended the National Equal Rights League's annual convention. And here she was rubbing shoulders with women like Ida B. Wells and others, and she discussed the continued silence from the White House on issues about race and racism in the US. And like other black intellectuals in America, she made plans to attend the Paris peace talks after the war to advocate for global and national black interests, though she didn't actually end up going. Yeah, so she's really putting her money where her mouth is. You know, she's the foremost businesswoman of her race. And on that global perspective too,

it's really interesting that she had that ambition to go to Paris and have that global, almost like pan-African perspective rather than just talking about the African-American perspective maybe. And it's really interesting that she wanted to advocate for black service people because one could

say that if you're like a pro-black american you wouldn't want you'd want to wash your hands with the war right like nothing nothing to do with me you know uh but actually she said well no there are still people who get swept up into it and and they're people i care about and that's really progressive you are very nuanced around your activism which is i think really instructive question i want to ask is, does Sarah, you know, Madam C.J. Walker, does she get a sort of peaceful retirement? I'm guessing the answer is no. She works until the very end.

This company is her everything. When you think about where she came from and near the end of her life, where she was, she wanted to protect it. She was on a promotion tour in November of 1916, and she and her traveling companion were trying to cross some railroad tracks and were nearly hit by a train in northwest Mississippi. Her blood pressure soared off the charts, and a doctor told her that she needed six weeks of rest. She ignored him and continued to tour. six weeks of rest. She ignored him and continued to tour. And then in late 1917, a doctor diagnosed her with nephritis, which is an acute kidney inflammation. And he told her to just cease work indefinitely. But she ignored him as well. And by 1918, had embarked on a Midwestern tour that was

supposed to last for three months. Despite all these health problems, she was doing better than ever financially, which is part of what drove her on. In 1918, she made $276,000, more or less, which was an increase of over $100,000 from the previous year. Then by 1919, Madam Walker embarked on her final tour where she again fell ill. And in May of 1919, she slipped into a coma at Villa Luaro. And on the 25th of that month, she died. Tragically, Lilia had been sent away on business

and Madam Walker had not wanted her to be told to come home. So Lilia missed both her mother's death and her mother's funeral. It sounds like she was a workaholic. And once you get a certain amount of wealth, you do earn the right to listen to your doctors. And it's really interesting that she didn't feel like she learned that right. And I think there's so many stories in history where people are just too rich. But also if she was trying to use that money for good, then she needed that money to then give it to elsewhere. I mean, it's that thing. But then it's almost like you take that rest and then there's more money to be made. Right. That's really sad.

Lilia wasn't there, which is very, very sad. But Sarah's last words on her deathbed was, I want to live to help my race. So I think we get a sense of her psychology there. Yeah. Nalewy, how did the world react to the death? Because I think you talked about the word celebrity earlier. Was she famous? Was she a celebrity? Was she beloved by this point? She was completely beloved in part because of all of the charitable work, in part because she was featured in black newspapers all over the country. And then the Walker hairdressers were parts of Black communities all over the country.

So when she died, it reverberated around the nation. But her funeral was held at Villa Luaro and people attended from just all over the nation. And it was grand in a way. all over the nation. And it was grand in a way, and it was also very religious, which really was in keeping with the ways that Walker wanted her life to be portrayed. Even the mainstream white press noticed her death and wrote about her significance. But Black newspapers made a special occasion of it. They talked about all of her contributions to hair care, her contributions to the rights of black people in the united states and her contributions to the advancement of of women's rights you can tell quite a lot when people die where how people respond yeah absolutely that outpouring but i guess

mike the question i have is how comes i know s.a lauder but i don't know madam suje walker in the same way like what happened to all of it well the money went to alelia and and alelia spent quite a lot of it partying but um the one thing i want to ask actually no leeway is we mentioned the beginning the literal million dollar question was sarah walker the first female self-made millionaire in American history. So when she died, her actual net worth was right around $600,000 all in, like everything on the table. The press persisted, though, in saying that she was a millionaire. In truth, it's probably the case that Annie Malone was the first person.

Malone! She first person to ever win a million dollars. Malone! She made a million! Let's not forget, Madam Sujo Walker did like to underestimate her income. Yeah, that's true. She was prone to a little bit of... How much is the lawyer hiding in the mattress? That's true. The nuance window! This is the part of the show where Athena and I get scalp massages

and Professor Noliwe can take to the conference stage to tell us something that we need to know about Madam C.J. Walker. Noliwe, you have two minutes. Take it away, please. So for my nuance, I suppose what I most want everyone to understand is the significance of what Walker was able to do and really being an innovator in the Black beauty space, but more starting a business that at its marketing core, every ad early on, every engagement, every newspaper article talked about how black women deserve to be treated well, how a visit to the Walker Beauty Salon should be an opportunity for black women to be massaged, petted, made out over,

made to relax. She talked about how hard black women worked and that the opportunity that Walker agents, while earning money for themselves through beauty and hair care, could support their sisters, could possibly be one of the few spaces in American society that provided this sense of rest and comfort and care for the hardest working Black women working the worst jobs, the least paid jobs regularly. That's a real kind of intervention. And it is different than what Annie Malone did in terms of her advertising, in terms of how she told people her products were better than others. But also, in addition to what she was able to do for the clientele, who, when she started this company, 90% of Black women, the only jobs open to them were in agriculture, some kind of farming.

Going back to Walker's early years, being a sharecropper, working for low wages, never able to actually get ahead and buy anything for yourself of note. She made it possible for Black women to not have to serve as domestics or agricultural workers. She started an entire beauty culture, beauty salon, beauty industry for black people. And whatever else we think about her, we really, really have to make sure we understand that is a significant intervention. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Noliwe. What do you think to that, Athena? I think that we talk about the trickle down economy, right? The idea that you can be extremely rich as long as it is of benefit to people. And it sounds like she achieved that. And she sounds genuinely committed

to understanding the condition of black Americans in America and how she can contribute to making it better. But you know what I love? Women. It's about women. It's like, I want women to work. I want women to feel good. It's a very feminist stance, actually. It's not sort of girl boss.

It's like a boss of women to be boss of more women to help women, which I like. Yeah, it's solidarity, isn't it? Yeah. Definitely, yeah. I'll shut up as the man in the room. So what do you know now? Yeah, it's solidarity, isn't it? Definitely, yeah. I'll shut up as the man in the room. So what do you know now?

OK, time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Athena to see how much she has learned. Athena, you're averaging 9 out of 10 across the screen. Oh, you've got averages now. Is there a table? There's a table, there's a metric. But you're a high flyer. So are you feeling confident? Okay, so I was thrown because I've learned I'm allowed to have a pen and paper, but I forgot to take notes until halfway through.

Before, I just had to keep all the memories in my brain, but I forgot to keep the memories because I thought I had a pen and paper, then I forgot to write notes. So my batting average is going to go down a little bit. Okay. We've got 10 questions for you to go down a little bit. OK. That's what I'm saying. We've got ten questions for you. Let's see how well you do.

OK, question one. What low-wage job did Sarah have for much of her early life? It was laundry work. That's right, a washerwoman laundress, yes. Question two. Where did the name Madam CJ Walker come from? Her husband? Yes.

Yeah, Charles Joseph Walker. Question three. How did Walker claim she developed the formula for her hair care products that she sold? A vision from Jesus Christ himself. Absolutely. Question four. What was the name of Walker's rival and former boss who claimed that Walker had stolen her business?

Annie Malone. Annie Malone. Question five. What was the name of the lavish mansion that Walker had built in 1918? Villa Luaro. Yeah, very good. Well done. I'll write that one down.

That's fair. Question six. Name two charitable causes that Walker donated to in her lifetime. The NAACP and the YMCA. Yes, word salad. All the letters. Very good. Question seven.

What was the name of Walker's daughter who helped to run her business and modelled for the products? A'Lelia. Yeah, A'Lelia. A'Lelia, excuse me. That's right, yeah. Question eight. What honorary title was Madam Walker given

at an African-American business conference in 1914? This is going to be a word salad of the actual title, but it's something like the most preeminent businesswoman of her race. Yeah, the foremost businesswoman of her race. Yes, you can have that one question nine what financial hit did walker take after a new thing was passed in 1913 oh it was tax you had to pay taxation it was um you were allowed to earn three thousand dollars a year oh you have to pay tax above that and she was earning way more than that she absolutely was well a very good memory. When it comes to tax, I'm like... I know exactly the rules.

This for a perfect 10 out of 10. When she died in May 1919, how much was Walker worth? $600,000. Whoa, look at you. Yes! 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10. And do you know what?

That one thing I wrote down as well, if I hadn't written that down, it would have been nine out of 10. Noir-o. Yeah. There we go. I was holding my breath like the whole thing. Well done, Athena. Thank you so much, Noliwe.

That was wonderful. And listener, if you want to hear more of Athena, we have episodes on Matsumusa, the Haitian Revolution, and Njinga of Ndongo and Matamba. All fascinating stories, all quite different. And for more on A'Lelia and Booker T. Washington, you can try our episode on the Harlem Renaissance. And if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review,

share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. But all that's left for me to do is say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner we have the incredible Professor Noliwe Rooks from Brown University thank you Noliwe thank you for having me

and in Comedy Corner we have the quiz queen herself the amazing Athena Koblenu thank you Athena thank you I feel vindicated in feeling like the queen of You're Dead to Me. Absolutely. Maybe you can get yourself a seventh Bernhoff. If only, if only. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we comb through more history,

looking for more fascinating stories. But for now, I'm off to go and launch my own history media platform. I didn't steal the idea from Dan Snow. Came to me in a dream. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Andrew Himmelberg. It was written by Emmy Rose, Price Goodfellow,

Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Caitlin Hobbs. It was produced by Emmy Rose, Price Goodfellow and me and our senior producer was Emma Neguse and the executive editor was Chris Ledgerd. Hello, I'm Dr Michael Moseley and in my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Just One Thing,

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So to benefit your brain and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now. Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon Pull Apart, only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks with a small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply.

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