You're Dead to Me - Printing in England (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined in 15th-century England by Dr Lydia Zeldenrust and comedian Robin Ince to learn all about the early history of book printing.2024 marks the 550th anniversary of the first book printed in English: a history of Troy, produced in 1474 by William Caxton. In the decades that followed, numerous printing shops would be set up across the country, and a huge variety of texts printed, including those that carried potentially dangerous ideas.Starting with the origins of printing in East Asia, this episode explores the first century of printing in England, looking at how books were produced and by whom, what sorts of texts were being printed, who was reading them, and how the state reacted to this new industry.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Jon Norman Mason Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. I'm Rob Norman. I'm Andrew Norton. And on Personal Best, we help you tackle the stuff you'd be too embarrassed to ask an attractive, successful life coach about. That's right. We have a slightly different approach to self-improvement. Which is, we don't know what we're doing. Definitely somebody following me. Okay. She's holding ament. Which is, we don't know what we're doing. Definitely somebody following me. Okay, she's holding a sword.

This is so nuts. But in the end, it always works. Okay, it sometimes works. You have no idea how happy this makes me. Personal Best, Season 3, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are coming to you live from the Hay Literary Festival in Wales, which means I get to say, hello audience! And we have got a suitably literary subject for you today,

as we are grabbing our library cards and book tote bags and heading all the way back to the 15th century to learn about the first 100 years of book printing in England and to help us spread the word, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's a lecturer in Middle English Literature at the University of Glasgow. She's a specialist in late medieval literature and handily for us, she works both with manuscripts

and early printed books. It is Dr. Lydia Zeldinruss. Welcome, Lydia. Did I get the name anywhere near right? Yes, it's the trickiest Dutch name, yes, it was always difficult. Zeldendroest. Zeldendroest. And in Comedy Corner, he's an acclaimed comedian,

author, broadcaster, he does absolutely everything. You will probably best know him from co-hosting the infinitely fantastic science show, The Infinite Monkey Cage, a BBC Radio 4 programme that pairs brilliant academic experts with comedians. How would that work? He's also the author of many wonderful books, including Bibliomaniac. It's Robin Ince. Welcome to the show, Robin. Thank you. You're normally buttressed by scientists, luxuriously buttressed by scientists, and now

you are buttressed by historians. Are you feeling comfortable or are you out of your element today? I think I'm always out of my element. I think that's the lucky thing. It's like, you know, when I'm surrounded by scientists, I know how much I don't know, and now I'm surrounded by historians. You know, a man's got to know his limitations, and every single day I find a new limitation.

And that's... You should always be the stupidest person in the room, because then you're in the right room. Yes, unless you're president. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And I imagine you're all familiar with printed books because you're at a literary festival and those of you at home, books are a thing I guess, hopefully you know what they are.

But the history of early printing, and especially in England, which is what we're talking about today, might be something we're less familiar with. Maybe you've heard of Gutenberg, who invented the printing press. But did Gutenberg really invent printing? How did this brand-spanking new technology make its way into medieval England? Let's find out. Right, Robin, here's a once upon a time scenario for you. The year is 1474. You are living in England, you're a man of learning, you've got a bit of cash. Have you read book? I think no, I not read book. I think what I do is I once every May I go and see various people reenacting a merchant's tale because there's a moment where they go and can pull them up the smock and

and he throng that by the way is all the chores that I know merchant sale was my a-level Chaucer text so I I think I was generally enjoying occasional strolling players but I wasn't that keen on the dancing bears because I'm someone who empathises with bears. That's a lovely answer. It's not really what I asked, but it's a lovely answer. No. I'll tell you what, if you're expecting a linear route, then you've never listened to The Infinite Monkey Cage.

When I say book, I mean the book, because there's just the one. Can you guess what it is? Would it be the Doomsday Book? Oh, that's a good guess. No, it's a classic by the name of William Caxton's recoil of the histories of Troy. What's your favorite line, would you say?

Do you know what? I've only got the pop-up version. Right, yeah. And I'll tell you what, that horse could take an eye out. But, so that was done before the Bible then. So that was printed before, oh. Dr. Lydia, Robin has done a very good job there of sort of asking the question. So Caxton's the book, History of Troy? Yeah,

so it's really a collection of the histories of Troy. It's Troy story basically. Hey! I have to say it's a bit of a misnomer because most of it is about Hercules. If you know the history of Troy and the fall of Troy, he's not really in there. It's mostly focused on Hercules' earlier adventure and turns out he destroys Troy twice before the sort of Trojan War that we all know and love. But yes, it is mostly about Hercules and the Trojan War is a bit of an afterthought. So yeah, this is a first book printed in English. It was printed by William Caxton,

you will know his name, I'm sure, in 1473 to 74. It actually wasn't though printed in England, but it was printed abroad in Flanders, probably for exportation towards England, but also it was aimed at a kind of local community of merchants in Flanders, English merchants who lived there. Who's Caxton then? Because printing's a new thing,

it can't be a family business he's inherited. He was a merchant and quite a successful one, a well-connected merchant as well. So we know that he joined the Mercer's Company in his teens and then he went over to Flanders, which was economically quite successful at this time. And it was also experiencing a kind of cultural flourishing. And what is Flanders? So Flanders is basically at the southern low countries. So in 1462, he's made governor of the English merchants in Flanders.

So they give him a bit of power. We know that at some point he's in a short period of exile and he finds himself in Cologne, comes into contact with the printing business because it's really taken off there. So you could say that the new technology really made an impression on him. It's really bad, I'm sorry. I think the problem was that you really gave up on that

before you delivered it. That was... And he publishes an English translation of a French history of a Greek story of Troy. It's a classic, We've all done it and Robin why do you think he's choosing that story to be his first? See now you've added the Hercules thing so I can see it as something like a kind of Marvel franchise idea Because the mere fact he knows that this is a universe that once you've got the kind of the the Troy franchise That's as big as Guardians of the Galaxy

Or any of those things. And you've also got all the merchandise, you know, the Troy story thing, as you said, the Hercules dolls, you know, the glamorous kind of Cindy-like Helen of Troy. Because I've always seen Helen as more of a Cindy than a Barbie. Right, yeah, sure. So yeah, that's what I'm seeing it as for merch possibility. I think that's a great answer. I mean, you're wrong. So, Lydia, why translate this history of Troy, this recoil of Troy?

The reason he chooses this particular text probably has something to do with the Burgundian court. So we know that Duke Philip the Good of Burgundy was a noted bibliophile, as were both his legitimate and illegitimate sons, known as Charles the Bold and Antoine the Grand Bataille, or Great Bastard, respectively. Sorry, I prefer that one. You can guess which one is the legitimate one and which one is the illegitimate one. Caxton's work brought him into contact with this court and with these dukes, and it also brought him into contact with Margaret of York, who is the younger sister of Edward IV,

and she's also the wife of Charles the Bold. She lent her support to this translation and to the printings. And we know that the dukes of Burgundy were great lovers of Greek myths. Did you say Burgundian? Yes. So that's the correct way, if you're talking about,

you know, a group of Burgundy nobility. It's Burgundian We're gonna do yeah, I am gonna work out a way of getting that into conversation Caxton becomes the prince of prints this book is the first book printed in English But it's not the first book ever printed full stop so Robin Do you know where printing technology was invented in which modern country where would we describe it? So that I mean was it Bible was it I just can't believe that it can't have been and I Do you know where printing technology was invented? In which modern country would we describe it? So I mean, was it Bible? Was it?

I just can't believe that it can't have been, and I reckon it will be, I know it wasn't called Germany then, was it? No, not really. So well, I'll say Bavaria instead then. So I think, because there's some alliteration, I think it was a Bavarian Bible. It's a lovely answer. It's the answer most people would probably give, and you're only 4, 4000 miles wrong. Oh, that's pretty good on a cosmological scale. Okay.

I mean, it's bad on a terrestrial scale, but I view everything in a much, you know, add a lot of light years to that. That is fair. Lydia, the printing press, well printing, is an Asian invention, East Asia, right? Yes. So, one of the earliest factors in the invention of printing that we need to kind of address first is the invention of paper. And paper was invented in China in the first century CE and printing itself started in the seventh century. So we are looking to an East Asian context and China in particular. And Chinese printing in this case, we're talking about woodblock printing. In the West, we like to say that Gutenberg invented metal movable type printing.

He did, sort of, but that doesn't mean he was the first. So this too was invented in China in the 11th century. It's not quite metal movable type, but it's movable type using baked clay. But in China, woodblock printing kind of remained dominant. So the woodblock printing, that technique that they used in China, goes to Korea as well. But the Koreans innovate and kind of go, here's metal.

And this was invented in Korea in the early 13th century. And the oldest surviving book in the world printed with movable metal type is a Buddhist text produced in Korea in 1377. So Gutenberg, you know, independently comes up with it. The story is sort of a wine press. Obviously, the Islamic world was really important in some ways earlier in preserving knowledge and printing culture as well. So Gutenberg is in Mainz, is that right? In the 1450s?

He is, yes. So yeah, Gutenberg, in a way, he's interesting because we kind of say that he invented all this. He didn't quite, although he did perfect lots of techniques. So like you said, he made his own ink and also the press was based on agricultural presses. The key part there is that he invented a press that put equal pressure on the page. So that means that the ink gets distributed equally. So printing spreads through Germany, Mainz, we know 1471 Caxton's hanging out in Cologne, but it gets into Italy as well.

Yes. And we have, I like this story, two German clerics turned printers, they're hanging out in Rome, and they slightly over calculate their loyal readership by 12,475 unsold copies. What was the year they did that again? This is 1472. So the very first remainder bookshop. And it's your, that's the only book there. There's no other book.

Literally no, there's not even a market. That bit of rejected, well don't you want to buy, no we don't want to buy your book. There's no other books. There's no other books. So 1455, Gutenberg sort of invents the printing press. Caxton prints the first English language book in 1474 in Flanders. When does the actual physical printing press cross the English Channel and arrive in England?

So Caxton at one point goes back home and he sets up a press in London. We know that he also had a little stall in Westminster Abbey, basically on the precincts of Westminster Abbey. Yeah, but he had a stall in Westminster Abbey? It was a good position really because he was quite near the court but also near the inns of court. So it meant that he had kind of lawyers walking by, scholars, academics, etc. But also the nobility, people with money, so he could kind of suck up to all of them and try and sell his books. But it's important to note that we are talking specifically about England here. So yeah, the first presses are in London and that kind of dominates for ages. So there are some kind of experiments with printing in Scotland, in Edinburgh in particular, for a few years.

And then we know about a sort of movable press that was set up in some cave in Wales, for secret reasons or something like that. But these don't last very long. These are are kind of short experiments the center of printing really is London. Robin this being a new brand new industry who do you think are the kind of early hipsters going into the field? It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the Burgundians and their friends. He's done it! But I mean I presume it was the Dukes and the noble men and because also I can't imagine that anyone else had any money. Was it them? No.

Oh. So who are the Princes? Are they immigrants? Are they locals who are being trained up? Who's physically doing the squishing? I mean Robin is right that the support, financial support and moral support and kind of marketing support in a way, lending your name to something, come from nobility and kind of these these well-known people. But the printers themselves, most of the early printers in England were from abroad. So for

instance Wink in the Word, which I think is the best named printer ever. He is Caxton's successor, he's probably from the Low Countries or northern France, and they also employed tradesmen from the continent. And at first they were protected, but we do see some public hostility towards these foreign craftsmen, and we do see over time that that grows. So from 1523 onwards, there are more and more acts or laws that progressively restrict the activity of princes from overseas. So there's more of a focus on native involvement and not these foreigners kind of coming in and taking jobs. And I say that as a Dutch person working in UK academia. Yeah.

The Recoil of the History of Troy was the first book in English, the language, but what was the first book that Caxton printed on English soil, Robin? Do you know? Dick Francis' Whip Hand. Very good guess. It's Canterbury Tales, close. Ah, I even mentioned Catterbury. Ah, can pull an obvi smock and anny throng. There we go.

Back to me A-level English essay again. Yeah, and it's incredibly popular, isn't it? This is a sort of bestseller. And it becomes even more so in a way, and partly because of Caxton, so he really gives it a bit of an extra push. He adds a little prologue in which he hails Chaucer as kind of our great English poet, and this really contributes later to the canonisation of Chaucer.

So this is around a period in the 16th century when the literary canon starts to take shape. By 1557 there were print shops in York, Cambridge, Oxford, St Albans, Canterbury, Norwich, Ipswich, Abingdon, all lovely places. But Lydia, the print industry wasn't just made up of typesetters and the ink squisher. I don't know if their job is ink squisher. That's why I want to call it. I like the ink squisher job. That is squishy, squishy.

But there were other people in the industry, right? We have a huge network of kind of various trades, people in crafts, people involved in the sale of books. We've got type cutters, so they make the letters. We've got block cutters as well. They make the wood blocks, so that's for the illustrations and things like that. In this case, what usually happens is they kind of steal images from continental books. They look at them and go, that looks good, I'll copy that.

I'm afraid they weren't as skilled usually, so they usually look like crap versions of a continental book, but there you go. They sort of steal it, so they copy that. And we've got the producers of ink, so the ink needs to be made. We've got binders, people who bind books together, because early printed books were sold without a cover. And we've also got distributors, booksellers. I told you about the little store that Caxton has. I'm making it sound really cute with the merchandise and the Hercules plushies that he probably had there.

You've sort of mentioned slightly the idea of stealing art from the continent and not doing quite as well, which sort of feels very AI now, doesn't it? But Robin, what do you think is the situation with copyrights and ownership? Look, I've been wrong on everything. You've got to stop asking me. Lillian knows much more than I do. I don't know why you keep turning round here.

I haven't got a clue. There is a problem in the format isn't it? The copyright thing, I reckon anyone can make a kind of ball stop version of some great text just as long as they've got the letters and the squidgy ink. I think you're bang on with that because copyright isn't really a thing that exists legally but we do hear people complaining about their stuff being nicked. Yeah so there is no copyright so really there's nothing to stop other printers to kind of steal your stuff and so you get pirated copies. There is some attempt to stop this so there is the

stationers register in the late 16th century. The ideas that printers have to register for kind of exclusive rights to print a particular text. And so we're hearing about, you know, people ripping each other off and stealing each other's work. Sometimes competition went too far. In December 1492, Henry the type cutter, what a great name. His, obviously his parents knew. That's an old nominative determination in action. They're like, what shall I do, Father? He got into a disagreement in the print shop with his boss, the Dutch printer. Oh, I can't pronounce this. Quick, Lydia.

Hand over to me. Gerard Leo. Oh, no, I can't do that. Leo means lion, so he's called like something lion. Yeah. OK. So he got into a dispute with that guy, and he wanted to leave and start his own business. Do you want to guess what Henry did to negotiate his exit package?

Oh, did he kill him? Yes, he did. Yeah. I thought it had taken a long time for a history programme to get up to a bit of homicide, and I reckon this would be the time now. Yeah. You know, when you look at the clock on a show stage and you go, it's murder time.

Yeah, he stamped him in the head with his type cutting tools. All of us have felt murderous towards a printer, but normally it's because it won't connect to the Wi-Fi. So, you know, so printers were literally killing each other over the race to profits. And once printing has been established, what sort of text do you think are being sold in shops? What kind of material do you think you can get? Are you talking about under the counter?

Well, you tell me. Because in all forms of art and creativity there's always this thing which is quite early on so I'm going to go if we really want to make money we want to make erotic lithographs, erotic haikus, so I'm reckoning that there were people who were beginning to do the kind of sexy texts. Sexy texts? Do we have any sexy texts? I think there are some,

depends on what you think is sexy, I suppose. But I will say, so again, wink in the word, he keeps coming up. He is someone who does start a bit of a trend of kind of salacious stories. He picks this up from trends in the low countries, which is kind of precursors to penny Dreadfuls and things like that. It's quite a diverse group. So we've got kind of more serious texts, so things like legal treatises, but we all...

School books. Oh legal treatises, yeah. Sorry, sorry. School books, there's a good market for that. Those are good sellers because obviously there'll be new students every year and they have to buy the new books and it's a good grift basically. But you've got narrative fiction as well, verse, kind of the literary text that we would think of. There's also text of religious instructions, there's all kinds of text being sold in these shops. And by the late 16th century we see music being printed as well, which is interesting. We

see a rise in vernacular reading as well, printers printing for a local market and it also established the vernacular as a language suitable not just for literature but also for science and learning and not just being in Latin. And indulgences too aren't they? So there's a lot being printed and being sold. What effect do you think this has on society? I'm going to guess that not nearly as much as we might imagine, because it's such a small specific market, you're maintaining it in Latin as well, so you're also making it a kind of exclusive thing, which means that it's not going to affect the people who are

working in the fields and things like that. So that's my initial idea. That's an interesting idea actually. Lydia, where do you... I mean, historians have often described the printing press as the engine room of the Protestant Reformation. Where would you stand on that as a historian of medieval literature and the printing press? I think that's partly true. So we do see that across Europe printing kind of becomes associated with the

spread of new ideas and partly those new ideas are Protestantism. So we do see texts related to Martin Luther, John Calvin, et cetera, but also revolutionary scientific ideas. So Copernicus's weird ideas also get spread in this sense. But there's other ways that it has a bit of an impact. So if we're looking at an English context, particularly printing also plays a key role in the standardization of language.

It also introduces standardization in certain spellings that we still use today. One of my favorites would be the H in Ghost. In medieval English it's G-O-S-T. Do you know where the H comes from? No. He's figured it out. He knows what happens here. He gets an answer and I mock him.

I'm fascinated by the standardization. It's one of my favorite things, like the standardisation of time with the rail time. Yeah, yeah, that comes back. Does it come from Herriwood the Wake? Oh, that's lovely. No, a bit early. But no, it comes from the Low Countries again. It's all the Dutch printers who've come over with Winking the Word. I'm just wondering if it does.

Because I've come to notice there's been very much a Low Country bias ever since you brought on a low country historian, as if the whole thing is nothing more than a marketing campaign. He's on to us. He's on to us. Visit the Netherlands. Yes. It's lovely. It's lovely. Go north to Friesland. Sorry, that's very funny.

But basically, you've got people in the low countries and they're going, I feel like this word needs an H in it, so I'm just going to spell it ghost. And that's why we spell it ghost. So the BBC sitcom would be ghosts. Who are you going to call? Ghostbusters? It doesn't work, right? I quite like ghost. It's beautiful. We are nearing the end of the episode, so we need to sort of mention how the authorities reacted to this new communication technology. Where do the authorities, where does the church, where

does the king stand on printing presses as a new problem in society or a new exciting technology? I would imagine that the moment there was the suggestion that some, especially if we're talking about Chaucer, I mean Chaucer really is, I don't mean this in a joke way at all, it is tremendously racy. It's people, you know, sticking their arses out of windows and those arses getting kissed and all that kind of thing. And so I would imagine there was a sense that they had to make sure that this did not get into the hands of what they would consider to be the uneducated people.

Yeah, so the powers that be did find use for printing to some extent as well. So we talked about those indulgences. So that's obviously religious institutions making a bit of cash on the side, but we also get the institution of the Kings or the Queens printer from 1504, so someone who kind of prints works on behalf of the monarch. But there are problems too, so we do see that religious and secular authorities across Europe also want to control the flow of these new ideas so again Protestantism things like that so we see that the first printed edition of the New Testament in English which is by William

Tyndale just published in 1525 to 1526 it actually had to be printed abroad couldn't be printed in England the first English Bible was printed in England not until 1539 so there's all that concerns. And we know that Henry VIII makes a proclamation at some point, this is in 1538, against naughty printed books. And he kind of forbids the printing in English without the approval of the Privy Council and he also bans the importation of books to England without a royal license. The New Ones' Window! England without a royal license. The nuance window!

Well, we have turned all the pages in our riveting story, so it's time to hit Ctrl P print on the nuance window. This is where Robin and I pull out a book and do some silent reading for two minutes while Dr Lydia takes centre stage to tell us something that we need to know about the early history of printing. Without much further ado, take it away Dr Lydia. Right, so though print was often billed as a revolution, print was actually far from an overnight sensation.

So manuscript and early print culture existed side by side for a long time. Early printed books were even made to look like manuscripts, so Caxton's books used types that imitated handwritten Burgundian manuscripts because this is what his readers were familiar with. Many book lovers owned both manuscripts and printed books, and some even copied books by hand, complete with drawings made to look like printed woodcuts. Artisans involved in the book trade did not necessarily distinguish between the two either, so binders might put both manuscripts and printed books together and printed books were sometimes illuminated by hand. Another myth that

needs busting is that print made books cheaper and available to everyone. Early printed books were actually still very expensive, so they were often huge. Their paper is also excellent quality. So some of the 500 year old books that I work with for my research are in a much better shape than my own 10 year old paperbacks. And they required a massive investment in both time and money. Because the price of printed books was hefty, their readers were those people who had a bit of cash lying around. So late medieval manuscript production already saw a rise in wealthy merchants, lawyers and scholars owning

books and not just the nobility or religious institutions and this trend continues with printed books. We are talking about the literati, really. This is a wealthy, well-educated, elite minority and it takes centuries before we get a sense that your average person can afford books or printed books. But as the example of Margaret of York showed, there were a surprising number of women who supported printed books and over time female readership grew. We also see women printers, often widows, but someone like Elizabeth Pickering actually printed under her own name in the 1540s. And this rise of women as the makers and consumers of books led to another kind of panic that has nothing to do with Protestantism or censorship,

but with the age-old fear that women who read are dangerous and we are I can confirm. Thank You Lydia Robin are women dangerous? No I find. Anyone who reads if you read well you should be dangerous to society because you should be able to you know and that that's the thing that I absolutely love and I was thinking of Sinead O'Connor. She was so funny and she was so smart and she was so brilliant. One of my favorite lines of hers,

I'm sorry, I know I've gone off the tangent, but I just, well, I've been doing that now for 35 years, but it's, I lie, 52. And there's a beautiful line, Sinead O'Connor said, "'They buried me, but they didn't know that I was a seed.'" And I think that's part of what reading is about as well. When you are buried inside a book, when you are buried inside the library, you are going to grow into something magnificent.

Oh, that's lovely. Love that. Yeah. APPLAUSE Well, thank you so much, Robin. Thank you, Dr Lydia. In History Corner, we had the fabulously book smart, Dr Lydia Zeldenbrust from the University of Glasgow. Thank you Lydia!

And in Comedy Corner we had our favourite bookworm Robin Ince. Thank you Robin! And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we crack the spine in another exciting historical story. But for now, I'm off to send 12,450 unsold copies of my books to the Vatican. Bye! It's election time in the United States, but this is social media's world and the election is just living in it. Accurate information about elections. Unfortunately, it is not as entertaining as false information. Join me, Marianna Spring, as I uncover how life online is shaping American people and

American politics. None of us know what's going on, but we do all know that something isn't right. Deepfakes, polarizing algorithms, hate and conspiracy theories. To me there's no other logical explanation. That entire thing was staged. Why Do You Hate Me, USA? from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Rob Norman. I'm Andrew Norton. And on Personal Best, we help you tackle the stuff you'd be too embarrassed to ask an attractive, successful life coach about. That's right. We have a slightly different approach to self-improvement. Which is, we don't know what we're doing.

Definitely somebody following me. Okay, she's holding a sword. This is so nuts. But in the end, it always works. Okay, it sometimes works. You have no idea how happy this makes me. Personal Best, Season 3. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.