You're Dead to Me - Queen of Sheba

Episode Date: February 23, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined by Dr Jillian Stinchcomb and comedian Sadia Azmat to learn all about the legendary Queen of Sheba. From her first appearance in the Hebrew Bible, the Queen of Sheba has fascinated Jewish, Muslim and Christian writers. But do we know anything about her as a historical figure? And how has her story been told, used and reinterpreted throughout history? This episode traces the legends written about the Queen of Sheba across Europe, Africa and the Middle East from 600 BCE to today, exploring the ambiguous and contradictory depictions of her as a wise and powerful ruler, an exoticised and seductive woman, the founding member of an Ethiopian royal dynasty, and a possible half-demon! Research by: Jon Mason Written by: Jon Mason, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are trekking all the way back to ancient Yemen, or is it Ethiopia, to learn all about the wealth, wisdom and womanly wiles of the legendary Queen of Sheba.

And to help us, we have two very special guests. In History Corner, she's a research associate at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey. She specialises in religious, biblical and Jewish studies, especially the literary dynamics of biblical figures. And lucky for us, she's especially interested in issues of gender and power. It's Dr Gillian Stinchcombe. Welcome to the show, Jill. Hi, thanks for having me on the show, Greg. And in Comedy Corner, she's a stand-up comedian, author and broadcaster. You might know her from her award-winning podcast, No Country for Young Women,

or heard her on any number of other podcasts, including the Rahel Esteba Book Club with Richard Herring. And you might have read her incredible memoir, Sex Bomb, all about sex and dating as a Muslim woman. It's the superb Sadia Azmat. Welcome to the show, Sadia. Hi, thank you for having me. Delighted to have you here. Sadia, first time on the show, Iia. Hi, thank you for having me. Delighted to have you here. Sadia, first time on the show, I have to ask, do you like history? Did you like it at school? Yeah, I did.

I learned a lot about Stalin and Trotsky. I love that. There was a lot of blood. It was violent. Yeah, history can be violent. Sorry about that. And what do you know about the Queen of Sheba? I don't know anything about the Queen of Sheba I don't know anything

about the queen of Sheba at all at all somebody told me about a harem or something like that so I wanted to ask about that but I think she's a sexy lady that's about it have you heard the name Sheba in any capacity as a phrase yeah you know when I was younger there used to be all these cat foods called Sheba all these cat food adverts. So I don't have a cat, but it looked very sexy too, to be honest with you. The whole vibe was very dark and she looked like she loves the cats. So what do you know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener,

might know about today's subject. The Queen of Sheba, I think is a well-known name, immortalised in the phrase, Who do you think you are? The Queen of Sheba? Famously, it was in The Royal Family, in a very famous episode of that sitcom, that wonderful sitcom. But apart from the implication that Sheba might therefore be a lavish lady of leisure who doesn't do anything, you might not know much else about her story. Maybe when I say Sheba, you are like Sadia thinking of cat food, but maybe you're not thinking ancient queen. You may have seen the 1959 film Solomon and Sheba or the 1995 film

starring Halle Berry, which is also called Solomon and Sheba. More recently, we've had, well, there's 3,000 Years of Longing. That's a movie starring Idris Elba and Tilda Swinton. Sheba has also popped up in Neil Gaiman's American Gods. She's a busy lady, but who was she? Was she a real lady? Is she more fiction than fact? And what have animal legs got to do with it? Let's find out. All right, Dr. Jill, usually on this show, we start by asking when was our protagonist born? Sort of basic biography questions. That's going to be tricky today, right? Yes, definitely. The Queen of Sheba, as we'll discuss, is a figure that pops up in a lot of

religious and literary traditions, but biographical facts are pretty thin on the ground. So instead, we'll be tracing her through different stories told about her through history. Sadia, I was going to ask, when in history is our first reference to the Queen of Sheba? Do you want to guess? You know, Cleopatra, she used to like around that times. I don't know what times those was. Well, Cleopatra will be about 2000 years ago, roughly sort of about 30 BCE. So you're saying roughly 2000 years ago?

Yeah. That's a solid guess. I think we could go earlier. I would say that is a really solid guess. But most people put the time where she would have lived probably 9th or 10th century BCE. So Saja's off by close to 1,000 years. But considering that we're talking in spans of thousands of years, you know, only about 50% off. Or no, 33%.

Math's not my forte. Excuse me. Okay. Wrong by%. Math's not my forte. Excuse me. Okay. Wrong by a thousand years sounds devastating. But actually, I think Cleopatra was a good, sensible guess. Historically speaking, 9th, 10th century BCE is a long time ago. So what is our first source, Jill? So the first written record of the Queen of Sheba is in the Hebrew Bible,

known as the Old Testament to many Christians. And she appears in two passages, 1 Kings 10, and the other one is 2 Chronicles 9. And these texts probably draw on older materials, which were written before 600 BCE. And both of these describe her as a wealthy ruler of a foreign land who makes a visit to the court of Solomon, a biblical king of Israel. Solomon was the court of Solomon, a biblical king of Israel. Solomon was the son of David, and Solomon had requested wisdom from God, which he was granted, and after this he became really wealthy, powerful, and devout. He built the temple and the wall at Jerusalem, as well as palaces, towns, and cities, using conscripted slaves from conquered ethnic

minorities. And he conquered and settled new territory, built ships, including some on the Red Sea coast, bringing even more wealth back to him. Because of all of this, Solomon became very famous in the area and was so famous that the Queen of Sheba decided to visit him and test him with hard questions. Like, is he single? He actually had many, many wives. So not single, but also not opposed to taking on a new lady friend at any point. She asked him about his income, like where he gets his money from.

That's a hard question too. What is the hardest question you can ask a guy when you first meet them? How big is your dick? He sounded like he had a big one. Let's be honest with all of that work going on. He sounded like a real man. He's got big temple energy. Did they have bigger dicks back then, Gillian? Have they gone smaller? We don't have time to get into the valuation of bigger small dicks back then. The Greeks thought that having too big of a dick made you animalistic actually, and they valued having a smaller dick. Oh, no.

What could possibly be good about that? They thought you were beastly and animal-like if you had a big schlong. So smaller was better. I'm here for the beast. All right. Jill, you said Sheba, the first reference is like 600 BCE, but she may have lived 3000 years ago. So already there's a 400 year gap there. And she's visiting the biblical king, Solomon, asking him hard questions. Is our quizzical queen catching him out? Is he able to answer them? Do we know? According to the Hebrew Bible, the queen of Sheba asked him all that was on her heart,

and he answered everything and didn't hide anything from her. She arrived at Solomon's palace with a really great caravan of camels carrying spice, gold, and precious gems, and she asked her questions, and he was able to answer them in full. She's sort of overwhelmed by his wealth and wisdom and by the confirmation that the stories about him were true. She really gives him a big speech full of compliments and praise. And after exchanging gifts, the queen left and returned to Sheba. And that's about as much as we're told. It sounds like she was into this Solomon guy.

I mean, she traveled really far with a lot of gifts for him. Yeah. She's into him. Let's get hyper-specific on the tiny, tiny details we do have. The Hebrew Bible tells us that Sheba, or the Queen of Sheba rather, gave Solomon 120 talents of gold, plus the large quantities of spices, many precious stones, etc. No cat food, unfortunately. Do you know how heavy a talent is? 5kg?

Good guess. Go a little higher. No, don't say 10kg. What's this woman giving gold for it's like a game show this uh higher still 35 kg oh my god this lady is loaded she is proper loaded she's giving what does she want from this guy well she wants to ask him about his wisdom obviously no one's this wise i'd keep the gold she's She's not very wise. So 35 kilograms per talent. She's giving him 120 talents. That is about four tons of gold. So Jill, we really don't find out very much about the Queen of Sheba from this passage. Do we even know where Sheba is? We don't know, not precisely,

where Sheba is. It seems like it's probably generally to the south of Jerusalem, but the Hebrew Bible mentions a place called Sheba 17 times across the whole corpus, and it never really tells us exactly where it is. There are some theories. Many modern scholars have noted on linguistic grounds it could be Saba, which is on the Red Sea coast, and it's in modern-day Yemen, because Sheba and Saba might be variations on the same name. And in antiquity, this was a city state that was controlled at different times by the rulers of both Yemen and Ethiopia, actually, because it's just across the Red Sea from Ethiopia. You can actually see the other side from the coast. So these two countries have

competing claims to the location of Sheba in later centuries. But there are also some scriptural references to Sheba and Saba as separate places. So the identification with Saba is just, it's not 100% certain. We don't know anything about her. We don't know if she's single, as you've pointed out. Her star sign. Don't know her star sign. I mean, Jill, I'm starting to worry this episode's in serious trouble, because so far we know so little about this person. Do we think the Queen of Sheba. And there is historical corroboration for powerful women monarchs at this time in the ancient Near East, as well as gift-giving between rulers. So for what it's worth,

Sadja, she came with all these gifts to give to him, but the expectation would have been that Solomon gave her equivalent gifts in exchange. So she's not totally down and out by, you know, four tons of gold. So for example, the Amarna archive is a cache of letters sent to the Egyptian pharaoh Akhenaten in the 14th century BCE. So he got all these letters from his regional peers, including at least one queen, often asking about the gifts that the pharaoh will send them in return for their own gifts. So gift giving was a really important economy in the ancient Near East. But the queen's literary function in the text, I think, is probably more important than if she was real or not, because she's there to demonstrate that Solomon was so

wise that he received praise and respect from other powerful and incredibly wealthy rulers, even from exotic, faraway lands. Nice save, Jill. Podcast rescued, I think, is what we're saying there. So after her debut in the Hebrew Bible, the Queen of Sheba then turns up 700 years later. This is in the first century CE. So this is about 2000 years ago. It's in a book written by a famous Jewish writer called Flavius Josephus. His book is called Antiquities. And in his book Antiquities, Josephus does give the Queen a name. The name we've got is, well, I guess in modern pronunciation, Nikala. Spelling a little bit different, N-I-K-A-U-L-E. So Nikaula, perhaps? So Josephus is saying she's called Nikala, Queen of Sheba. And he says that she is from Saba in Ethiopia, but he also says she's ruler also of Egypt. So Jill, why are both getting name

changed? Why both Egypt and Ethiopia? Because that feels unnecessary. Yes, it is pretty extra, right? So Josephus' Antiquities is a history of the Jewish people. Josephus was a prisoner of war taken to Rome. And so he wrote this history while living in Rome, written a few years after the Romans had actually destroyed the Second Temple in Jerusalem in a sort of violent culmination of their occupation of the area after the Jewish revolt. Josephus was trying to argue for the antiquity and the importance of the Jewish people in terms that his Roman and Greek audience would have understood. Egypt was really respected by Roman society as one of the oldest

civilizations they knew of. And in the first century CE, it had actually become one of the richest provinces of the Roman Empire. And Ethiopia also appears to have had some mystique in Greco-Roman writings. It's often presented as the edge of the known world. India and Ethiopia are sort of like the edge of the maps that geographers would describe. So by visiting Solomon at his court, the Egyptian and Ethiopian Queen of Sheba was essentially proving his importance through her own power and economic status, proving to a Roman audience the importance of the Jewish people in historical terms. Well, what happened to the 700 years, Gillian? I mean, so the thing is, is those two texts probably take from earlier tradition.

We get Hebrew prose writing probably eighth century, so a century or two after they would have lived. What kind of clothes was she into? Well, I mean, I'm guessing she's wearing the best stuff, but do we have anything at all? The thing is, is cloth doesn't last very long. Cloth is one of the first thing that's going to rot. doesn't last very long. Cloth is one of the first things that's going to rot. So we do have evidence of cloth also being traded over a long distance because of really nice linens and stuff,

things that were weaved well and have a fine weave. So, you know, honestly, when you said that, my first answer was soft. She would have been really into soft clothing. Aw, that's so cute. We now get on to our next story. And now we're into the Christian age, actually. Our next writer is a Christian scholar. He's called Origen of Alexandria. He's writing in the third century CE, so about 1,700 years ago. What's Origen's origin story for the Queen of Sheba?

I would say he has a slightly different take on things. He doesn't have to argue for Solomon's importance in the same way that Josephus did, for instance. Origen wrote lots of commentaries on scriptural texts, and one of his most extensive was on the Song of Songs. And the Song of Songs is a poem from the Hebrew Bible in which an unnamed man and a woman describe their love for one another. And it's surprisingly sexy and romantic, actually. Yeah, it's a very famous poem. Do you know it, Sadia? No, am I going to get to read it now? You are, yeah. Is that my cue? Can I grab it? So yeah, this is the Song of Songs and this is the opening stanza. So it's the beginning of the poem. Do you want to read it for us? Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth for your love is better than wine your anointing oils are fragrant your

name is perfume poured out therefore the maidens love you draw me after you let us make haste the king has brought me into his chambers we will exalt and rejoice in you we will extol your love more than wine. Rightly do they love you. Oh my God. Who wrote this? I want this person to write something for me too. I don't know if they're available anymore, Jill. Do they do freelance work? The author of the Song of Songs? Many people say it's Solomon, actually Sadja. So maybe this is why the Queen of Sheba was so into him. Oh my God. I like guys who are in touch with their sensitive sides. He's cool. I like him. And why is the Queen of Sheba linked to this poem, Jill?

So interpretations of the poem vary within and between Jewish and Christian traditions. As you might imagine, it made some people a little uncomfortable that this was so incredibly sexy. Actually, Origen begins his commentary by saying, like, this isn't actually about sex at all. Don't get it twisted. I get the same criticism, Gillian. But so people had a variety of interpretations of it. Is it a man, a human speaking lovingly to God? Is it two lovers speaking together? Is it God and the Christian church speaking to one another? Basically, is this working on a metaphorical level? Is it a little bit more literal? If it's literal, who's speaking? There were a lot of different debates about it. It's sometimes said to have

been written by King Solomon himself. He was said to have written a lot of texts, including the text of Proverbs. And Origen argued that in some ways, the woman in the poem is the queen of Sheba, with much of the poem spoken in her voice. He also simultaneously argues for a couple of other readings of the text, including as a dialogue between the church and God, but that's not important for our purposes. What is, I think, interesting for our conversation right now is that building on Josephus's idea that the queen was Ethiopian, he connects the fact of her being from Ethiopia to a line in the poem where the speaker describes herself as black and beautiful. And that makes this the first written example of the Queen of Sheba being explicitly identified as a black woman. And this identity is something that has continued to mean a lot to some audiences of her story throughout history.

She appears again in the 7th century. This is the time of Islam. Dr. Jill, how does Queen of Sheba's story, reputation, her purpose, does it shift at all now that Muslim writers are starting to talk about her? Yes, definitely. The political context of the Middle East

had really changed by that point. Five centuries, it's a long time. And it seems in these new circumstances, with different states vying for control, and Jewish, Christian and Muslim communities living alongside each other under the same rulers, the Queen of Sheba suddenly became very meaningful to writers from different faith traditions in different ways, because she's not really needed as a witness to Solomon's greatness anymore. Instead, they're using her to think about difference and power. And we really get a flourishing of new imaginative descriptions of the Queen of Sheba. You've mentioned imaginative depictions. We're

talking now, magical spirits, Sadia, talking animals, body horror, and a bit more sexy stuff as well. Do you know any of these traditions of talking animals in that part of history dr doolittle isn't that right yeah i don't know a bit later what was the other thing you said the talking animals and what magical spirits uh body i know about them do you know gin yes yeah yeah yeah so gin is basically like you can have good gin and bad gin. They're basically spirits. And so I know that there are some tales that say, you know, after Maghrib, which is sunset, you shouldn't really go out because that's when the gin is usually out in the night. And then sometimes it says, if the dogs are barking, like it's because they've seen a gin. The dogs are barking. Like, it's because they've seen a djinn. Stuff.

Okay. So negative and positive. They can be... Yes. You've got to be careful. Yeah. I'm very careful all the time, don't worry. I know. I don't know any djinn.

The djinn are starting to come into stories. But there's another Jewish text as well, Jill, called the Targum Sheni, I think. It's a rewriting of the Book of Esther, I think. And it's, once again, the Queen of Sheba has turned up to meet Solomon. So that's the same. But I feel like the CGI budget has gone up. There's more going on.

So what's happening now, Jill? So in these texts, Solomon is the Doctor Do-Little-Figure. He can command and talk to birds, animals, demons, and other spirits. And the queen in these, the text emphasizes that she's an idolater who worships the sun or the sea. And Solomon writes a letter to her demanding that she show deference to him. And she decides to visit. And this text in Targum Shani to Esther actually pretty closely parallels a narrative that's also in the Korans.

Surah An-Naml, Surah 27. And so in the Qur'an, Solomon also sends a jinn to steal her throne and bring it back to his court. And then he actually tests her by disguising her throne with magic. And she sort of sees through the trick. In the Targum, in contrast, she tests him with a series of riddles. She gives very cryptic descriptions of objects, which Solomon correctly guesses that the objects are a makeup box, the flammable compound naphtha, and linen for making clothes. And after really easily answering the riddles, the Queen of Sheba in the Targum declares that Solomon is indeed very wise. All right.

I have two questions. First of all, why does she keep going to see him and he's not going to see her? She's making all the effort in this relationship. I don't like it. He couldn't even send a car for her or something. Did they have a car back then? I don't know. But she's doing a lot of the legwork and I feel badly for her on that. And then the other thing I wanted to say is like their relationship seemed to shift because before it was she was just like you know praising him all the time and now they're playing games with each other hmm there's another element the story that's different as well Sadia do you want to guess what's interesting architecturally about Solomon's palace when the Queen of Sheba shows up

is it floating oh that's a good guess. I do like that guess. Yeah, if Sajja wrote that on an exam, she would definitely get partial credit from me. In both the Quran and the Targum Shadid Esther, this is one of the interesting parallels to them, Solomon's palace is described as having a room with glass floors, which the Queen of Sheba mistakes for water. She sees this room with glass, shiny floors,

and she lifts up her skirtsba mistakes for water. She sees this room with glass shiny floors, and she lifts up her skirts to avoid the water. And then Solomon explains that it's just glass. And in the Quran, she sort of realizes her mistake with the glass floor. And it's very abrupt, but then she says, I've been mistaken about my religious practice. And so she rejects her sun worship in the Quran to convert to worshipping God alongside Solomon, which you could phrase as converting to Islam. But since it's before Muhammad, we might just say converts to the worship of the one true God. Do you mean like a glass bottom boat, which is see-through or is it like polished glass that ripples like water maybe? I would say very, very polished glass. So there's actually a really fascinating story about crusaders

coming to the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul in the 14th century and some of these kind of country bumpkin European peasant soldiers falling on the floor because they think it's water and they get so scared of it. So this might actually be a dig at the Queen of Sheba of like she's not as worldly and sophisticated as she seems. And the Targum actually really makes a dig at her because in that text, when she lifts up her skirts, she reveals that she has really hairy legs. And Solomon says that she's beautiful for a woman, but hairy like a man,

and hair is shameful on a woman. I didn't shave my legs today. Me neither. And what did they use to shave their legs back then, Gillian? I bet they didn't have like the razors that we've got. Or did they? I don't know. Did they use wax? Did they use gold? What did they do? Oh, they had a range of more or less horrifying options. They had straight razor options. There's some old Greek plays that refer to women trimming their pubic hair using candles. So like fire.

Can we try that? I want to do that. No, health and safety. Sadiq, come on now. The BBC would be sued. Oh gosh. I will sign a waiver. I mean, I applaud your bravery,

but I don't think anyone should be putting a lit candle anywhere near their genitals. Let's just let's all agree. Bad idea. The hairy legs, Jill, are starting to be critical of the Queen of Sheba. Up to this point, she's been almost uniformly positive and noble and worthy. And now suddenly there's a element. She's a foreigner. She worships the wrong god. She's got hairy legs. Is that also appearing in later versions as well, or is this a one-off? No, this is something that keeps appearing.

For example, in the 9th century, Alphabet of Ben Sira, which is an anthology of tales, it's a Jewish text, very parodic, very humorous. And in this particular text, Ben Sira is called to the court of Nebuchadnezzar, who is a biblical king of Babylon. And Nebuchadnezzar asks Ben-Sira a series of 24 questions, most of which are about animals and are also pretty crude and rude. These questions include things like, why does a donkey pee where other donkeys have peed? And why do crows copulate through oral sex? Could you repeat that one for me? I was thinking about the donkeys pissing, sorry. Yes.

Why do crows copulate through oral sex? And this seems to be basically like folklore tales that are probably known, 9th century Baghdad, when this was written. And so they just get put in the rudest and most abrupt possible way for shock value in the text. They're good questions, though. Why does a donkey pee where some other donkeys peed? I want to know that. Yeah, me too. I did not know that crows give crow jobs. I think that's a silly question, because why wouldn't a crow give a crow job? Sure. I'm in different podcasts, maybe.

I feel out of my depth here as a historian. I don't feel I know much about bird sexuality. Shout out to the crows. Okay. So the questions being asked there, why do donkeys pee? Why do crows copulate? These are funny questions, Jill, as you say.

So it's parodic, it's humorous, it's a little bit cheeky. But Ben Sirah does answer the question of the hairy legs, doesn't he? He does. So one question that Nebuchadnezzar had was how to shave the head of a rabbit. And Ben Sirah answers with a story of the Queen of Sheba. And in the story found in the alphabet of Ben Sirah, after seeing her hairy legs, Solomon invents a paste, a depilatory cream, which removes her body hair. And Solomon then promptly sleeps with her. No concern about her consent in one way or another is listed in the text. And then Ben-Sirah does this big reveal and says that this actually, this encounter between the Queen of Sheba and Solomon was how

Nebuchadnezzar was conceived. And just to note, Solomon and Nebuchadnezzar lived centuries apart from one another. This is really not meant as a history, but a parody making fun of everybody involved. Yeah. So she's now, apparently she's now the mum of Nebuchadnezzar and the inventor of Veit hair removal cream, or Solomon is, I guess, maybe. So, Sadia, you asked us about what sort of clothes might the Queen of Sheba have worn. We have rustled up three images for you to see if you can compare and contrast, see what you like, see what you don't like.

So, first image is a medieval one. It's from a manuscript called the Belifortis. It's a military manual. It's a war manual. It's from 600 years ago. This is the Queen of Sheba. Do you want to describe her for us? It's they've they've made her very black yeah just to for the people which is great but it's like very you know it's very stands out and um a lot of bling she's uh i think

it's a beautiful dress it's a really nice green she's quite thin. She looks really fashionable, very trendy, very classy. Elegant is the word. She has a huge crown with loads of jewels. She's holding some kind of stuff in her hands. That means that she's a queen. So the orb of power, the scepter. Oh, I thought it was a perfume thingy. It looks like a hand grenade is what it's weirdly like a sort of a but no, it's that's the orb of power. She's got very blonde hair, which is quite interesting. Yeah, I didn't even spot that one. But she's beautiful. She looks really beautiful. She's got nice red lipstick. She's kind of dainty in her shape. Let's have a look at pick two. This is from the 1890s. So this is how the English artist Edward Pointer painted her in 1890. This is her visiting Solomon. You might notice she is topless.

Yeah, she's gone white now all of a sudden. I thought she was, the other picture was she was very black and now she's like completely white. Yeah. That's weird. That's the Victorians for you. Yeah. So she's wearing a cute skirt. She's wearing a nice headdress so but not you can still see her hair so it's not quite the headscarf a bit desperate with no top on I don't know because everybody else is covered like you know I don't know maybe because he's holding his hand up and he's like I don't know that doesn't look like a hello to me it's like a where's your top

it's kind of like the Marilyn Monroe thing isn't it where he was like oh no my wife's there and she's trying to sing and seduce him you know how girls get we kind of when we're into someone we just go all in there's a lot of wives behind him actually I can see one two three four five six seven eight I can see 11 women uh looking on quite angrily all right should we look at pick three? So pick three. This is Betty Blythe, the actress playing the Queen of Sheba in 1921. Oh, that doesn't look like what I thought. Did you say 20s? Yeah. Yeah, 1920s.

Yeah, she looks way too modern for the Queen of Sheba that we're kind of talking about. But she still looks very sexy. Not much Queenie. She's more of a dancer here. We can still see her tits. Did I say that? They're nice. Just for the people who can't see, she has nice tits. But yeah, that's how the 1920s portrayed her.

So that's three very different interpretive stars. What's your favourite? I am a huge fan of the Bella Fortis manuscript. I think it's beautiful. I think it probably is, considering the Queen of Sheba to be the speaker of the poem of the Song of Songs, who's black and beautiful, because it uses this really dark ink, you know, to show her black manuscript. And so the part where the Queen of Sheba is put on there, it seems that the author of the manuscript considered part of Solomon's wisdom to be his knowledge of scientific, magical military matters. And that's why she's included in this manuscript of military knowledge.

It's not obvious when you read about the Bella Fortis manuscript why she would be in there. It feels a little bit random. Let's get back to the legacy. Let's talk about a writer called Al-Tabari, who in the 10th century, he's giving us an even more wild version of the stories. We've already heard about, you know, supposedly she's having Nebuchadnezzar as her son and there's sort of various magical things happening. But now, Al-Tabari has renamed the Queen of Sheba. She's no longer Nikaula or Nikala. She's now called Bilqis.

And she comes from Yemen. Bilqis is a nice name. That's my auntie's name. Is it? She died. Oh, I'm sorry. It's a nice name, though. It's a beautiful name, isn't it?

Bilqis. So, Al-Tabari's renamed her. He's relocated her to Yemen. He also claims that she has murdered her tyrant husband in order to take his throne. And that one of the jinns under Solomon's control has heard a rumour about her appearance. Do you want to guess what the rumour is, Sadia?

About her tits. She's had a boob job. Not necessarily. Go bottom half of the body. Oh. She's pregnant. Oh, she's pregnant. Oh, good guess. But no, it's the legs again. Oh, she's growing a hair back?

Yeah, more than that. She's got donkey legs. Jill, explain, please. Yes. So in Tabari's version of the story, the djinn under Solomon's control are really nervous that if Solomon falls in love with the Queen of Sheba, they'll have a child and then that child will be able to rule them forever. And the jinn don't want that. They want their servitude to end with Solomon's death and be done. So they tell Solomon that actually underneath her skirts, the Queen of Sheba is hiding donkey legs. And so then Tabari says that the glass floor wasn't, you know, a coincidence. It was actually another trick set up by Solomon to get her to lift her skirts and show off whether or not she has donkey legs. It turns out, luckily, maybe that she just has hairy legs.

What's the problem with donkey legs, by the way? I mean, it's basically meant to indicate that she's a demon. So in an earlier sort of fourth century text, there's a description of Solomon engaging with a variety of demons. And one of them is a female demon who has a beautiful woman on her top half, but donkey legs on her bottom half. I think they're not good gin because they're like troublemaking. Yeah, they're trying to trick Solomon into not meeting her. Is that right? Into at least not falling in love with her and not having a child with her. I mean, can't really blame them for self-preservation in some ways, but they are definitely being very tricky. I mean, the word jinn gives us genie, doesn't it? I mean,

we tend to think of sort of Robin Williams in Aladdin. It's all hilarious and fun. But actually, you know, as Sadia said, I think that the jinn is a slightly more trickstery vibe in tradition. So we hear that the jinn goes up to the heaven and the lowest part of the heaven. And then they start like hearing the angels who are like, you know what's going to happen. So that's where the rumors come from, because they don't hear all of it. And then they kind of mix the truths into it. So someone said, if you know all those fortune tellers and stuff somehow they can tell you something factual about you but it's like there's one truth mixed in a hundred lies but

then they're not great people so they mess it up as well oh well don't trust the gin then okay all right so jill we've this is the first radio ad you can smell the new cinnabon pull apart only at wendy's it's ooey gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. We now have a Queen of Sheba who is murdering her husband, not with donkey legs per se, but has been described as maybe having donkey legs by people who want to break apart any sexual relationship between her and Solomon. But it feels like the dynamic is shifting a little bit again, that the story of Queen of Sheba keeps mutating, doesn't it? Definitely. There's a clear power imbalance between the Queen and Solomon in these versions.

Arguably, you could say the story is becoming more gendered. She's a joke for not fitting stereotypical gender norms, but she's forced to conform by the end of the story where it says that Solomon gives her a cream to make her legs smooth and feminine again. But other factors might also be important, especially the queen's idolatry. Her function now seems to be to show Solomon's superiority over unbelievers in both Muslim and Jewish traditions. And the uncertainty around Solomon and the Queen of Sheba as rulers might also be related to conflicts in the Arabian Peninsula around the time these texts were produced. But the Queen is just really hard to pigeonhole. She recognizes Solomon's greatness in the Bible and God's superiority in the Quran. And perhaps related to that, she is consistently

portrayed as beautiful and desirable, despite unconventional appearance and behavior. And in a contemporary commentary by Mukatil, when Solomon criticizes her hairy legs, the queen gives this really wonderful comeback. Surely, you don't know what a pomegranate is until you taste it. Good comeback, Sadia. I know, I love it. But question, we seem to care more about her hairy legs than the fact that she murdered her husband. Details, details, Sadia. Whatever.

He was a tyrant. He was a bad guy. It's fine. Yeah, that's a fair point. That's so straight. It's pulling on a longer tradition, actually. There's an ancient Arabian queen named Zenobia. She fought against the Romans.

And in Muslim tradition, someone basically steals there's an ancient Arabian queen named Zenobia. She fought against the Romans. And in Muslim tradition, someone basically steals the throne from her father. And then she pretends to marry him or gets ready to marry him and then murders him on their wedding bed, essentially. But then how do they think we're all repressed when we're out here killing our husbands? Extraordinary circumstances, right? The exception that kind of proves the rule yeah what do you make of this the queen of sheba story so far in terms of her reputation i want to know if she's getting any you know because at the moment all i know is she's getting it from solomon here and there i just think she's going to a lot of effort and um there's it's very sexual and beastly type of thing but it's not a lot of love and emotions in this. Like we were very fixated with love and all of those kind of eerie, fiery things.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of that in that world. That's interesting. I mean, the song of songs that you read out so beautifully, that's the one bit of eroticism we have had. And I feel like she's quite strong as a character, like almost what we would think of as a masculine strength. She seems to be as strong as a man and a woman, basically. She's very tough. So she's not needy. She's not like me. I will be texting him every day. Come on, Solomon, leave your wives, all of them. Just let it be me and you. Jill, we're not done with the sexy chat. Well, sexy is probably not the word, because the next thing in my script is simply the word male genitals, question mark.

How do we get dicks in the story? A couple different ways, depending on the story you're reading. But for example, in the Jewish Midrash Mishle, which is dated to roughly the 9th century, we get a different report of the riddles between the Queen of Sheba and Solomon. The Queen in this text is Solomon's basically equal in wisdom. And at one point, when praising his answer, she even calls him sort of my son, Beni. That said, many of the riddles are concerned in some way with genitals. And in one,

the queen presents Solomon with several men who are the same height and wearing the same clothing. And the queen of Sheba asked Solomon, how can you tell which one of these men are circumcised? And to answer, Solomon opens the Ark of the Covenant one of these men are circumcised? And to answer, Solomon opens the Ark of the Covenant, at which point the circumcised men, i.e. the Jewish men, bow to half their height and their faces are filled with radiance, whereas the uncircumcised men collapse to the floor. I'm confused. So basically the Jewish men, they know the proper response to the Ark of the Covenant and it's a blessing that fills their faces with radiance whereas it's actually just overwhelming

to the non-Jewish men but what is it why are we worried about whether they're circumcised or not well I don't mind either ones if you're listening I don't mind in this case it's I think it's actually a way of saying like look at all these people who look exactly the same Solomon do you have the ability to discern what's hidden, in this case behind their clothing? Couldn't they just have done like the full Monty type of thing? But then it wouldn't have been hidden and so Solomon wouldn't have been proving his wisdom with it.

That's it, right. So it's not naked attraction. They're not all coming out. It's not a Channel 4 dating show. It's about his ability to discern. I can guess too, Greg. It's a dangerous game, but okay. Ark of the Covenant for listeners who are thinking, hang on, I've heard of that. That's what we see in Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark, where all the Nazis melt. But

in this story, people are overpowered by the holy relic. So the 10th century, now the story reaches into Western Christian Europe. So this is a Catholic culture. And how century, now the story reaches into Western Christian Europe. So this is a Catholic culture. And how do you think the story changes now, Sadia? What are they going to do to her? I mean, I think we're going to have to have more of her, like, sleeping with men. That's what I think we're going to have. Okay.

So you think she's going to get some more guys? More dick. Not just Solomon. She's going to pick up some more dick. Okay. Well, I think what we're doing here is we're swapping out the donkey legs for duck feet is that fair Jill oh my god or goose feet yeah so webbed toes is that the new donkey leg analogy getting used in medieval Europe so the animal limbs thing just isn't done in Senegal there's a tradition where she has cow hooves in one Ethiopian version it's as a goat instead of a

donkey because the queen's mother had looked at a handsome looking goat with greedy desire. But in medieval Catholic Europe, the queen of Sheba began to be shown with a webbed foot that was then healed somehow by the wood of the true cross, the cross that Jesus was crucified on. Some people understand that to be a coded signal that she had leprosy on her legs. But in these stories, the queen crosses a bridge over a pond in Solomon's court, and she recognizes that the wood it is built from will one day be used to make the wood of the true cross. In some versions of it, she steps into a pool of water in which the wood of the true cross is floating in order to worship it, and then her foot is cured.

So her otherness as a foreign queen, and here a sort of prophetess who recognises the significance of the wood, is positive. And the webbed foot becomes a symbol commonly associated with the Queen of Sheba in medieval European art. So she's now got the power to see the future, because she's now projecting the future crucifixion of Christ. We're into now medieval Ethiopia, which is a Christian culture, isn't it, Jill, that becomes Christianized. So where are we now with our history of Queen of Sheba in Ethiopia? So Ethiopia is actually one of the earliest political entities that has mass conversion over to Christianity. Very, very old Christian history, but our manuscript tradition for them starts around the 13th century. And in this period, we start to get this text called the

Kebrenagast, which is a selective history of Ethiopia, which justifies the rule of the Christian dynasty that came to power in the 13th century. And the Kebrenagast states that the Queen of Sheba had ruled over Ethiopia, and it gives her a different name. This one is Makeda. And this history portrays her, and, you know, it's national epic, really, portrays her as a wise, capable, and moral. And maybe the reason they emphasize these qualities so much is because, for one of the first times, it's written by a community who claimed her as their own. The Queen of Sheba, in the beginning of the story worships the sun, but when she learns of the wisdom of Solomon, she's persuaded to worship the God of Israel.

She visits Solomon and they have a philosophical discussion, but on the last night of her visit, he sort of tricks her into having sex. Another text which shows no concern for consent, although in this case the literary value of that is that it shows that she's not sexually promiscuous despite having a child outside of wedlock. So as a result of this encounter, the queen gives birth to a son, Menelik. And Menelik I is claimed as the ancestor of the ruling dynasty of Ethiopia, known as the Solomonic dynasty. And that dynasty ruled right up until the 20th century and included Haile Selassie, the last emperor of Ethiopia, who's worshipped as a prophet or a messiah by those of the Rastafari faith.

And his claims of descent from both Solomon and the Queen of Sheba were written into the Ethiopian constitution of 1955. Wow. That's a lot to take in there, Sadia. So she's got a new name, Makeda. Yes. So this is her third name now. Because it was Bilkis before, wasn't it? It was, and before that was Nikola. So third name, and now the mother of Menelik I, who is the founder of the Solomonic dynasty.

Is that the substitute for Nebuchadnezzar or not? Well, I mean, that's a good point, Jill. She's the mother of Nebuchadnezzar in another tradition, but now she's the mother of Menelik in this tradition. Do they have both or replace? I would call the alphabet of Ben-Zirah the equivalent of a medieval shitpost. Okay. It's meant as a joke.

It's meant to make everyone laugh. Nebuchadnezzar actually destroyed the temple that Solomon built. That's what makes that joke kind of like punchy and funny. They lived centuries apart, and Nebuchadnezzar is known for destroying one of Solomon's greatest achievements. built. That's what makes that joke kind of like punchy and funny. They lived centuries apart, and Nebuchadnezzar is known for destroying one of Solomon's greatest achievements. I guess you had to be there. But the Kebra Nagast is, you know, it's written as, you know, meant to be as sort of historically true as possible in this case. So I would weight these two accounts differently, is what I would

say. So the Kebra Nagast is our Ethi. That's a really interesting point that this is a community claiming her. The first time the Queen of Sheba is no longer a foreigner coming into court, she's now actually one of us. And the story is that Menelik at one point visits his father in Jerusalem. Solomon throws him a big old party. And when Menelik leaves, he gets to take home the Ark of the Covenant, which is nice. Can you tell me what that is? What is the Ark of the Covenant? What is that? So the Ark of the Covenant is the location where God could exist, did exist, basically, on Earth. In the ancient Near East, you know, God's had various homes, essentially, usually in temples. The Israelites were a people that didn't have a land for a long time.

usually in temples. The Israelites were a people that didn't have a land for a long time. And so they carried around the Ark of the Covenant, you know, as sort of like God's seat chair, essentially. And then eventually the Ark of the Covenant gets put in the central sacred shrine of the temple at Jerusalem. And it was only viewed once a year by the high priest. So the Ark of the Covenant is essentially one of the holiest relics that has ever existed in the history of Israel. Oh, wow. So it's like a map, yeah? More like a big box, I'd say. Okay. So now the sun gets it, yeah? The sun gets the Ark of the Covenant. Okay, cool. That's it. So Menelik's got it. He gets to take it home with him. Jill, the Kebra Nagast, it's not just known in Ethiopia because it also then has an influence on how the Queen of Sheba's

story is understood further west. Definitely. So some of the claims from the Kabanogast appear in European texts from as early as the 1400s and parts are translated into French and Portuguese by the late 16th century and into English by 1682. The emperor's proclaimed descent from the Queen of Sheba is mentioned in US newspapersS. newspapers from 1704, and she became really popular in the 19th century as a symbol of African-American pride, appearing in newspapers and novels. Sheba became a popular first name, and an African-American philanthropic organization was named the Masonic Sheba Lodge.

She becomes, I suppose, an international figurehead for African-Americans, for people of African heritage. But then we see another take in the 19th, 20th centuries. And this is where we got the painting, Sadia, that late 1890s painting. There's operas as well, Jill. There's a circus, isn't there, Jill? Yes. The Queen appears on stage, on screen, canvas and in print all over Europe and North America. It appears on stage, on screen, canvas, and in print all over Europe and North America. There are paintings, including the one Saja saw, John Pointer's The Visit of the Queen of Sheba to King Solomon.

There are operas like Charles Gonneau's 1862 La Reine des Sables. There's poetry by Yeats and others. the circus show, by the Ringling Brothers, called Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, which featured more than a thousand employees, 335 horses, 26 elephants, 16 camels, and other assorted animals that traveled on 92 rail cars. Wow. These versions generally played on stereotypes, focusing on the Queen of Sheba as a wealthy but sexualized figure, and it was usually portrayed by a white performer. This version led into cinema portrayals in the 20ised figure, and it was usually portrayed by a white performer. This version led into cinema portrayals in the 20th century, and despite her adoption as a black role model, it wasn't until 1995 that the Queen was portrayed on screen by a black actor, in this case Halle Berry. So it's been quite the journey, Zadia.

We've dragged you around several countries, many centuries. She's had three different names. How do you feel about the Queen of Sheba now? I think she's pretty cool. I think she's like not what you normally, I guess, think of as, you know, a typical figure of history. And it's nice to have like a very rounded explanation of her because somebody told me that she's very sexualised

and it doesn't seem that that's the case from what we've discussed so not that there's bad if it is but all this animal stuff it feels like there was a bit of haters going on with her so you know i'm on her side there's a bit of haters trying to say she's got these bad feet i think you're right i think it's interesting the sexualization seems to be sometimes used to attack her credibility right but you're right. I think it's interesting. The sexualisation seems to be sometimes used to attack her credibility. Right. But you're right. There's nothing. Well, she does murder her husband, but, you know, he's a tyrant. He was a dickhead, innit?

The nuance window! This is the part of the show where Sadia and I relax in the golden thrones of our glass-floored podcast palace, while Dr Jill teaches us something we need to know about the Queen of Sheba. So my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Jill, please take it away. So we don't have access to the historical figure of the Queen of Sheba. We don't have evidence of anything she wrote, nor are there any historical accounts from the period she lived which describe her. And instead, we have inherited historical evidence that emerged no less than a couple of centuries after she would have lived,

and then a wide variety of oral traditions. I sometimes meet people who are disappointed that we don't have access to the real Queen of Sheba. But what I find most fascinating about the figure is the way she functions as a cipher to a storyteller's values. And what I mean by this is by paying close attention to how

one or another story of her visit is told, we can see concerns about difference and power emerge. The Queen of Sheba and Solomon are different genders, have different religious practices, and are of different nationalities, ethnicities, or races, depending on how the story is told. And those factors are all always present, but they're emphasized differently in different narrations. The Bible has virtually nothing to say about her gender, for instance, which is somewhat surprising in light of how central femininity is to modern retellings. In another historical shift, the Queen of Sheba isn't presented as a foreigner in Ethiopian and Yemeni stories about her, but rather as an ancestor. She's claimed as an us rather than

a them. These stories are used as evidence in debates like whether or not women could be good rulers or debates over who is the political and religious inheritor of Solomon's authority. So while we might not have access to the real Queen of Sheba, the figure does have real effects in the world. And perhaps more importantly, the lack of direct evidence really sharpens debates that are always at play in the writing of history. The quality and nature of evidence always matters, but so does the narrative crafted through that evidence. And the Queen of Sheba really forces us to ask if our story is a good one. And if so, good for what? Thank you so much.

You didn't talk about the crows giving the blowjobs because I was waiting for that bit. We only had two minutes. I need so much more to get into that. Thank you, Jill. That was fascinating. And I love the idea of a story good for what? That's interesting. The purpose of stories is really interesting because sometimes we assume they're just, you know, stories are just stories, but they sometimes have a genuine function. So what do you know now? Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Sadia to see how much she has learned. Sadia, are you feeling confident?

Because we have bounced around all over the place. If it's about crows, yes. I'm not sure the crows are in these questions, so we might be asking some trickier ones. Let's see how we do, shall we? Question one. What religious written text does the Queen of Sheba first appear in? Oh, it's a Bible. Hebrew Bible, well done.

Question two. In the Hebrew Bible, why does the Queen of Sheba journey to visit Solomon? I think she wants to figure out his wisdom. Yeah, ask him some hard questions. Question three. Saba is sometimes associated with Sheba. In which modern country is Saba found? Yemen.

It is Yemen, well done, very good. Question four. Which sexy biblical poem that you read out beautifully did Oregon of Alexandria think was about the Queen of Sheba? What was the name of the poem? It didn't have even a name. No, I don't know. Okay.

It was called The Song of Songs. That's cheeky, isn't it? All right. I lost that one. Okay. Question five. In later Jewish and Quranic traditions, Sheba lifts her skirt because she mistakenly thinks a glass floor is water.

In the Jewish Targum text, what is Solomon shocked to see under her skirts? She's got some hairy legs. She has got some hairy old legs. Question six. In the 9th century Jewish text, the Midrash Mishle, what genital-based riddle does the Queen of Sheba set for Solomon involving men? About the circumcisions. She wants to know how much foreskin they've got or not. That's right. OK, question seven. According to the 10th century Muslim writer Al-Tabari, what magical being under Solomon's control told him that the queen had donkey legs?

Gin. It was gin. Very good. Question eight. What body part became a symbol for the Queen of Sheba in medieval Western European art? It wasn't her legs. It was... Her feet. Webbed feet. It was webbed feet. Very good. Question nine.

Which sacred Jewish artefact does the 13th century text, the Kebra Nagast, claim was brought back to Ethiopia by Sheba and Solomon's son, Menelik? Is this the Ark of the Covenant? It is the Ark of the Covenant. OK, and this for nine out of ten. A very strong score. Question ten.

Who was the first ever black actress to portray Sheba on screen? There we go. Nine out of ten. Very well done. Where's the crow's question? Do we get a buzz? And question 11. How does a crow...

All right. Well, you did very well, Sadia. Well done. And we absolutely hurled so much history at you there. That was very difficult. It was so interesting. It was fascinating. And thank you, Dr. Jill, for your knowledge and sharing that with us.

So, listener, after today's episode, if you want to learn about another legendary location, we've got our episode on Atlantis, of course. For more African queens, why not listen to our episodes on Hatshepsut or Njinga, Ravindongo and Matamba. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. But I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the delightful Dr Gillian Stinchcombe from the Institute for Advanced Study. Thank you, Jill. Thank you so much for having me, Greg. What a lovely time.

And in Comedy Corner, we had the sensational Sadia Asmat. Thank you, Sadia. Woof! I love so much. Thanks, guys. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we hitch up our skirts to reveal another historical mystery. But for now, I'm off to go and shave my legs because Solomon has given me a complex. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me

was researched by John Mason. It was written by John Mason, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Caitlin Hobbs. It was produced by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Neguse Thank you. Hello, it's Zan Van Tulleken here, and I'm back with my twin brother Chris. That's me. In the third series of our Radio 4 podcast, A Thorough Examination.

And we're going to be talking about exercise. Now, I really love it. And this has been really annoying for me. In fact, it's gone beyond annoying. It's more like you've joined some sort of cult. But I think Chris needs to do more. In fact, I think everyone needs to do more. There is a general crisis

of inactivity in the UK that we should all be worried about. So in this series we weigh up whether exercise really is the miracle cure for all that ails us or whether it's been oversold and actually lounging around is just fine. Listen to us resolving

the argument on BBC Sounds. Terms and conditions apply.