You're Dead to Me - Robert Bruce

Episode Date: August 2, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined in medieval Scotland by Dr Iain MacInnes and comedian Marjolein Robertson to learn all about Scottish independence hero and king Robert Bruce. Robert grew up in a time of political turmoil, with multiple noblemen competing to be king of Scots – including his own grandfather. But after Edward I of England declared himself overlord of Scotland, Robert began a fight not just to be king, but to overthrow English control too. This episode charts the twists and turns of Robert’s life, taking in his adventures in Ireland, his quarrels with the papacy, his unlikely alliance with the English crown, and his epic military victories. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Anna McCully Stewart Written by: Anna McCully Stewart, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

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My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and today we're donning our kilts and daubing our faces blue to learn all about medieval Scottish King Robert Bruce. Robert THE Bruce to some, but Robert Bruce to us. And to help us, we have two very special comrades in arms. In History Corner, he's a senior lecturer in the Centre for History at the University of the Highlands and Islands. He's an expert on medieval Scottish political and military history and the author of Scotland's Second War of Independence, 1332-1357.

It's Dr Ian McKinnis. Welcome, Ian. Thanks, Greg. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, actor and storyteller. She was a finalist at the BBC New Comedy Awards, runner-up in the Funny Women's Stage Awards, and won Scott's Speaker of the Year in 2022. You might have seen her at Edinburgh with her sellout shows,

or caught her on Breaking the News, or Rosie Jones' Disability Comedy Extravaganza. It's Mary-Elaine Robertson. Welcome to the show, Mary-Elaine. Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to learn. This is your first time on the podcast. I have to ask, do you like history? Yes. Well, and no. I suppose I have some beef with history in the sense that I studied archaeology. So I'm like, well, we have evidence. You have written lies. Oh my word. Ian, just let's keep it calm.

Sorry I can't make that all guns blazing. What do you know about Robert Bruce? Better known to many probably as Robert the Bruce. Yes so I know that this was a time in Scotland where I'm a Shetlander so Shetland was very very busy at this point in time and fighting with Norway and we really weren't so clued up with what you were doing down in Scotland in England so I know you were having a lot of trouble between the two of you but we are already very busy up north. Okay so as a Shetlander you look down upon England obviously but you look down upon Scotland too, geographically speaking.

Yes, so we became part of Scotland in 1469, officially signed over in 1471 in lieu of a payment of a dowry. We're quite bitter about it because the dowry was meant to be 30,000 Florians worth, so Denmark and Norway suggested the dowry would be Orkney and Scotland reckoned that Orkney was worth 22,000 Florins. So they're like, can you bump it up by 8,000 Florins? And they threw in the whole of Shetland, like we're a third of their cost. So we became Scottish about 200 years after Robert the Bruce. 300? Okay. This is fascinating, amazing. Alright, well we better get on with the show. I'm already learning stuff, it's great.

So, what do you know? ["The New York Times"] Okay, this is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. If you are from Scotland, then Robert Bruce is a household name national hero

for winning Medieval Scotland's independence from the English. He even features on the Scottish 20 pound note, which of course is legal tender in England. Now outside of Scotland, he's not quite as famous as William Wallace of Braveheart fame, but Robert Bruce did get the Hollywood treatment in 2018

with the Netflix film Outlaw King starring the very handsome Chris Pine the internet's boyfriend But how did an outlaw manage to become King of Scots and did Robbie Bruce really get tactical advice from the animal kingdom? Let's find out now very quickly Mary Lane Do you know how many Robert Bruce's or should that be Roberts Bruce? I'm not sure Robert Bray Yeah, I don't know what the plural is of Bruce's. How many there had been before our Robert? I'm gonna guess just wildly seven. Oh so close. Really? So close yeah there was six before he was the seventh. So we need to set the scene normally we'd

start with his childhood Ian but for some important reasons we're gonna start with his grandfather who was Robert Bruce number five. So yeah, so if we start in the 13th century the Bruce's hold lands in Scotland and in England they are cross-border landholders as many nobles are in this period. But Robert the fifth served alongside Prince Edward of England, the future King Edward the first, in the English Barons War in the 1260s. So he has a good relationship with the English crown. He also has a distant claim to the throne of Scotland, as his mother was the great granddaughter

of King David the First. And according to the Bruces, Robert the Fifth was promised the throne around 1238 by the then childless King Alexander the Second. And so in part because of this, Robert V is known as Robert the Competitor. However, even if he was promised it, and it seems unlikely, Alexander II does produce a son who reigns successfully

until he falls off his horse and dies in 1286. And unfortunately, Alexander III is pre-deceased by all of his children and is succeeded then by a young three-year-old granddaughter, Margaret. Margaret, however, is the daughter of the King of Norway and she dies in Orkney on her way to Scotland. With Margaret's death, there is no clear successor to the Scottish throne and in that context, the 70-year-old Robert V resurrects his claim to the Scottish throne.

So he'd waited 52 years to be king. So 1290 the competitor Robert Bruce finally gets his sort of sights on the throne. Does he get the throne Ian? Because it sounds like no one else is around. Because of the fact that there is there is no obvious successor everyone in the ante throws their hat into the ring to be the next king and Robert V stir starts up trouble in Scotland and so to avoid Scotland slipping into civil war the Scottish guardians who are controlling Scotland in lieu of having a king look outside for help and they look to Edward the first of England to help them decide who the next Scottish king should be.

Edward's done this before. Yeah, Edward does think about pursuing his own claim to the Scottish throne, but instead he says, well, okay, I'll make the decision for you. But all the candidates have to acknowledge me as their overlord, as the superior king over Scotland before I'll make that decision. And all of them eventually sign up to that.

And so what follows is what's called the Great Cause which is a legal process and in that process Robert the fifth is unsuccessful instead the throne goes to his rival John Balliol. Because wasn't Scotland, what I understand when Scotland back in the day was very much like whoever was king kind of fought to prove it rather than lineages like Highlander was based on a true story there can only be one and they fought to the death for it. I think but before perhaps the early 12th century that can be the case but so Highlander is true. I wouldn't say that and Spanish ambassadors don't sound Scottish. So John Balliol is

selected the computer says no when it comes to our sort of Robert Bruce number five let's now pivot to our Robert Bruce he's number seven what do you think he's into? Back in the late 1200s early 1300s just avoiding plagues and poxies, black lung, what do they get? Syphilis? I don't know, and just trying really hard to stay alive. Yeah, I think that's legit. What level of status do you think he's got? I don't know what it's like doing in Scotland, but in Shetland if you get too big for your boots you soon get ripped to pieces. And modesty reigns supreme. Like if you were a prince you wouldn't really speak about it.

You know, people call you prince, like shut up, no I'm no. You'd wear the same pair of sambas and iron maiden t-shirt you'd had since you were 14, even when they start fitting you. So maybe he'd have been like that. Ian, what's the family history? So he's certainly part of the Scottish elite. His father is an Earl, the Earl of Carrick. The Bruce family are originally from Normandy and came to England in the 12th century.

And so yes, Robert would be raised to be a Lord, to be a future Earl. And so he is taught Latin, he's taught French, and he would be raised to learn the skills of politics, warfare, and noble culture. But a particular thing in South West Scotland is also fosterage, so sons would be fostered out to other families, either perhaps in the Scottish South West or in the West Highlands where there are allied families, or even to Ireland where the Bruce's also have interests. And so they would then learn various skills,

probably learn Gaelic as a result as well. So adding to their linguistic skills. There is the possibility too that Robert spent time within the household of King Edward I of England. And again, perhaps learning lessons from the great King himself. So I think Robert was raised quite well to understand and be acquainted with the different cultures of England, Scotland and indeed the Gaelic world.

The idea of being fostered out to a different family, is that a sort of hostage situation? I mean I suppose it can be used as a hostage type scenario but I don't think this is what's intended here. It's more furthering the bonds that already exist between families and so raising each other's sons helps to bring those families closer together. Well that's the idea anyway. Imagine, imagine being like, ma'am, what are you saying? He's like, to another family, I'm swapping you for a different son. He speaks French, English, Latin, you said Gaelic, how many languages have you got down

Ian? There's several languages in Scotland at this point, I'll point out. There's Gaelic, there'll be Scots at this point, right? And then there'll be the Norn up in Shetland, Orkney, Caithness as well. Oh, okay. I don't think you'll have that. But no, you probably will have. Well, maybe if you had that, things would have turned out differently.

So it's going to be a real Shetland bias in this episode. Sorry. It's quite normal. So Ian, he's multilingual and he's trained for politics, he's trained for war. This is a young man who has got a bright future ahead of him. But we haven't mentioned his dad, Robert Bruce number six. Doesn't he want to be king? So I think the practicalities of what happens with the Great Cause means that the Bruce

family has to make some decisions. While Robert V passes his claim to the Scottish throne onto his son, Robert VI, Robert VI passes his claim onto his eldest son, Robert VII. So Robert VI retains the claim to be King of Scots but can live off his estates in England and not have to give homage to the new king who is his enemy John Baradale. Robert the 7th does, he has to go and give homage and he will ultimately retain that claim to the Scottish throne. Right now Robert the Bruce isn't winning any favour from me, he sounds like they're just

a family who are like, we will be friends with whoever in power will let us keep our land. Yeah. When's he going to redeem himself? Oh, well this is the question, Marylaine. When is he going to become the hero? It's a fair question. I also have to ask, why are we not calling him Robert the Bruce? Where has the gone? I think it's just, it's a bit of an anachronism,

it's something that was added very much later. It's probably just a corruption of the of the de Bruce name that they brought from from France. It is an anachronism, it is just Robert Bruce ultimately. Like it should just be Ant-Dec, but we added an and. So the family word from Bruce in Normandy. From Bricks, I think is the idea in Normandy. Okay, so they were from a place called Bricks or Bruce. And so they were Robert from Bricks and then they became Robert Bricks, Robert Bruce.

Okay, good. Right, Robbie VII, as I'm calling him now, has reached adulthood in the early 1290s and his dad has sort of opted out. And King Edward hands the Scottish throne to John Bailey, all the family's enemies. But this point presumably is where Scotland gets some peace and stability because the great cause is over, the decisions have been made, John Bailey will rule. So all happy now, Ian? All good?

In part for a little bit. So yes, King John is on the throne, he has an heir to succeed him, things look reasonably straightforward for Scotland, but the bargain that Edward the First struck during the Great Cause when he extracted that oath from the competitors, he calls that in. And so Scotland faces a range of demands that the Scottish King has never faced before. So there's demands for taxation, demands to appear at English parliaments, orders for military service in France, which the Scots don't want to do. So John is rather undermined at every turn by Edward the First.

But the Scots ultimately make a deal with the King of France, who Edward the First has been at war with recently. And so Edward the First doesn't take this well. He starts to gather an army to invade Scotland. The Scots get their revenge in force by raiding northern England, but Edward I then takes the opportunity to use that as an excuse to invade. He sacks Berwick, he wins a battle at Dunbar, and he then proceeds to take the submissions of all Scots who come to him, including King John himself, who is stripped of his crown

and led off into captivity. And Ebbod the First also takes away every sign of Scottish royalty, including documents, including the Scottish crown and the Stone of Scone on which Scottish kings are inaugurated. Is this the Stone of Destiny? It is, yes. And is this where they used to swear

the Scottish kings into power at? Yeah, so the Scottish kings would literally be sat on the stone and that would be the the scene of their inauguration as king. When Edward took it away, did we get it back again after that? We got it back eventually in 1996. But was that the real one or was that the swapped one? Because I know in the 60s a group of men went in a Mini Cooper. My dad minds this all being happening, because he's an Enver at the time, with the replica

and went to swap it. It's funny you should say about the replica, because that question of whether Edward actually took the real stone away is also something that's discussed in the Middle Ages. Because the Scots would also claim that he didn't actually take the real stone away, that the monks had secluded it away so they could bring it back out again

once Scotland became free. Something monks had good at, it's hiding things. Indeed, yeah. And the Bruce's are not part of the Scottish army which loses at Dunbar. They may actually, Robert VII may actually be part of Edward the Fawcest's forces which invaded, yes. And when Robert VI asks Edward the Fawcest for the crown, Edward is meant to have said, have we nothing better to do than win kingdoms for you. The Bruce's were fighting on Edward's side? Yes, it's practical for them to do so. For us to now hold Robert the Bruce as a hero, they must have had one amazing PR company. What is this shift? This is hidden from us.

Like, if you ask at the start what I didn't say about Robert the Bruce, because I thought it was too obvious, it was like, oh yeah, he's a hero for Scotland and our freedom, isn't he? Is he? Is he, yeah. He's a swap insides. This is also wild that Edward would be like, hi Scotland, I promise you all these nice things and as soon as Scotland says okay, it's like now actually treats him like an abusive ex. It's like actually, you have to give me more money, I'm going to make you feel terrible and now you have to fight the French and send Scotland into

France where they're like, wait a minute, this was our nicer ex. But now Ian, I can hear the Braveheart music. I can see the face paint. I can feel the kilts fluttering in the breeze. Here comes William Wallace. Here comes Robert the Bruce. Freedom, right? Yes, although no kilts. Fewer kil, no blue paint, and no Australian accents. But yes, Robert VII does join in a series of rebellions which break out across Scotland in 1297. So in the north, you have Andrew Murray rising in rebellion,

purging influence from the Highlands. In the south, you've got William Wallace undertaking similar activity. And indeed, someone like Wallace may have been essentially representing southern lords like Bruce who had too much to lose if they were caught on the wrong side in rebellion. Bruce does come out in rebellion himself but may have submitted relatively quickly.

But I mean Bruce wasn't there at Stirling Bridge for example when Wallace and Murray win their big victory over the English in 1297. On the plus side he also misses the big defeat the year later. When Edward I brings an army north and defeats Wallace at Falkirk. And this, of course, is the scene in Braithwaard, where it does depict Bruce's being there. And that is something of a creation of the late 14th

or into the 15th centuries where this myth is created, this picture is created that Bruce fought on the English side at Falkirk and then it's Wallace who harangs him and tells him he's on the wrong side and he has this kind of Damascene conversion moment where he decides to change sides and become properly Scottish and fight for independence. It's all rubbish of course. And what about France? So the French provide kind of moral support to the Scots. They send out prayers and wishes. I know. I'm trying to find out about it. So moral support, certainly they provide diplomatic support which is actually quite important.

But yes, the French do eventually abandon the Scots after 1302. After that, the Scots are very much on their own. So it's quite confusing so far because our fearless freedom fighter has sort of fought for the English, fought against the English and then he's sort of back with the English again, is that right? He submits to Edward I about 1301, 1302, yes. He does surrender and basically looks to try and protect himself because there's the possibility that King John might return, meanwhile his Scottish enemies are the

ones who are actually leading the patriotic cause in Scotland and he's being sidelined and basically he has nowhere to go and he wants to protect his lands and his future, so he thinks that at that point the easiest way to do that, the best way to do that is to submit to Edward I. I'm trying to work out if he knows where he's from at this point. Because he has found Scotland and England. He's spent time in Scotland, England, Ireland. Does he know which side he's meant to be on yet?

Maybe he's just very confused. I suppose that the point is that they don't necessarily feel Scottish or English or any of those things at this point because they have a kind of cross-border mentality. Is the borders part of what is Scotland or is it still quite fractured? Yeah, so the border between England and Scotland is relatively fixed. It gets pretty much fixed in the 13th century, so that's not in dispute. Okay. But what were...? I'm trying to make excuses for this film.

No! Yeah, it's lovely seeing you go, and maybe it wasn't his fault! Oh my god, it's like I'm just ignoring his red flags. I'm like, he'll still text! Mary-Lynn, how do you think King Edward of England tries to woo Robert over to stay permanently on his team? What do you think he does? Oh, he gaslights him. I don't know how one would be wooed.

Well, I can tell you, he did the classic medieval thing of offering Robert a young wife to marry. And unfortunately, because it's medieval history, I have to honk my problematic marriage clacks and this young wife is way too young. She is 13. Who is the young wife that, because he's already had a wife, Robert the Bruce. We haven't mentioned this.

He's already, he's had a wife already, right? I hate him more and more. No, no, it's not that bad. So yes, Robert has had a wife, Isabella of Mar. Where did she go? She dies in childbirth. She dies giving birth to his daughter, Marjorie. So yeah, that's one of the other things

he has to think about, that he is a widow, he doesn't have a son. He again has to think about his future. So when he's making these decisions about which side to support, he has to think about that too, because who's going to inherit his lands if he dies. Not his daughter, apparently. Well, possibly, but perhaps not preferably.

So it's so surprising she's not called Roberta. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Seriously. Yeah. The very young child that he marries, offered by the King of England, is Elizabeth. Is that right?

Yeah, so Elizabeth de Bourgh is the daughter of the powerful Earl of Ulster, who is also one of Edward the First's chief supporters in Ireland. And yes, she's 13 at the time of the marriage, Robert is 28. Can you imagine how disgusted Robert's daughter is? They're probably the same age as their bride. Is that just commonplace marriage times in ages? Sorry. Yes, I mean in the medieval period women could get married from the age of 12 and men from the age of 14. Okay, so Robert now marries his second wife, who is not even an adult, Elizabeth the Bourgh,

and now becomes Scotland's king? No, not yet, because Edward doesn't want there to be another Scottish King. Edward doesn't regard Scotland as a kingdom anymore, he sees it as a land, wishes to govern it as if it's like an English Eldom. And the patriotic cause is being led by others, by principally the Common family, a northeastern Scottish family, and they're doing quite well. But when the French abandon the Scots and when it becomes apparent that King John is never going to return to Scotland, even the Commons surrender to Edward the First in 1304.

And this actually changes things for Robert the Seventh again, because Robert, having surrendered a couple of years before, thinks he should have been rewarded by Edward by now, or should have been rewarded more for the fact that he surrendered when he did, and he doesn't think he's been rewarded enough. He also sees his Scottish enemies now surrendering and actually being perhaps rewarded better than he is. And so he perhaps starts thinking again, well actually maybe I should be king. There are two possibilities

ultimately it's either going to be Robert Bruce or it's going to be John Coleman of Badenach and it's kind of between the two of them potentially as to who might be the Scottish King in the future. And these two rivals meet in a church it's called the Church of the Grave Friars in Dumfries and it's in February 1306 the two men meet and God is watching. What do you think Robert does in this meeting? Songs of praise. They've met in a church. Do they know their rivals? They do know their rivals.

In a kirk? Yeah. The house of God? It is. What do they do? What does Robert do? Oh no! Can he get any lower? What does he do in the church?

So yes, John Corbyn ends up dead, Bruce kills him, or else he wounds him and his attendants then come and finish him off. In the church. Is it a kind of premeditated murder? Has he gone there to kill him? Or is it a kind of argument that gets heated? Yeah, it's not clear and there's a lot of propaganda around this as well. Unsurprisingly, the English make a lot of this and say that, yes, it's premeditated Bruce Slough Common.

Scottish propaganda would suggest otherwise, and the idea that it's an argument that there are accusations of betrayal. In fact, that Common had actually betrayed Robert's planning to Edward the First, and so he kills him in a fit of anger. I think what we can possibly say though is that both men probably knew that one of them had to be king and probably neither of them was willing to back down. So I suppose you could suggest that

only one man was likely to come out of that meeting alive, and so in that kind of context it may well have been premeditated. I'm sorry, but it's a bit rich for Robert the Bruce to be like hey you're on Edward's side how dare you that's my thing. But also Robert is married to the goddaughter of Edward so he's by marriage he's linked to the English king and yet he now wants to be king again. So is he breaking the marriage? Is that a betrayal of sorts? It's certainly a betrayal of Edward the First, yes, and Edward takes it very personally. Edward then summons an army to go to Scotland. Bruce challenges it when it's based at Perth, but

he doesn't go about things well and the English essentially turn it into an ambush and defeat him. And one of his brothers is captured and is summarily executed. His wife, his daughter, his sisters are captured and are imprisoned. Two of the Bruce women including one of his sisters is put in a cage which is suspended from the walls of a Scottish castle. He takes Bruce's rebellion, Bruce's betrayal very personally. I guess we've skipped a really important point here. Robert the Bruce is the King of Scotland. I don't know quite how he's managed it because he's just murdered John Common. Has he apologised? How does he end up King? After the murder, Bruce acts very quickly. So he sends out messages trying to control the narrative,

obviously trying to put across the case that he wasn't the instigator that he was betrayed and so it was justified. He also goes to the Bishop of Glasgow to seek absolution from the bishop for the murder and Bishop Wishart gives him that absolution. He actually forgives him, although the Pope, when he hears about this, does not and excommunicates Robert altogether. So in the aftermath of that though, he goes to Scone. Yes, there is no stone.

There is a crown, but it's probably one that's been hastily made. The people who would normally be at a Scottish coronation are largely absent. And it's only those who are his immediate supporters who are there. But they go through a ceremony. He is inaugurated. And he leaves that as King Robert of Scotland.

OK, so it's an underwhelming sort of low budget coronation. You say he was excommunicated by the pope. This is a huge deal for the King of Scotland, because that does not mean all the subjects of Scotland are also excommunicated. I think the original excommunication is just on the individuals. But as the years go on and Robert

continues to be problematic, then the ecclesiastical century gets worse. He makes himself king. He gets excommunicated, he loses a major battle against Edward, his sisters and his wife are put in cages, his brother is killed. What do you think he does next Mary Lane? Sides of Edward again? If I was Robert the Bruce, which I'm thankful I'm not and I don't think we're that alike, but I think he just goes on a total revenge mission against Edward with all its might. He does the opposite, he runs away. He does a runner Ian, we're not sure entirely which order because he goes to Ireland and he goes to the

Highlands so do you want to sort of walk us through his escape plan? I think we have to remember, Magdalene as well, that Robert isn't just fighting the English at this point. You know, his murder of John Common means that there are lots of Scots who are lined up against him as well. So the amount of support he actually has in Scotland is pretty small at this point. And so running away is probably the safest thing to do. He flees into the West, possibly to the Western Highlands and Islands and or to Ireland, we don't know for definite. But the events that happen, Nick suggests that he does pass through both regions to make alliances,

to try and buy or work out support there if he's going to make a return. Yeah, the English ridicule him during this period as King Hobb. He suggests he's like a goblin and nothing much else. Hobb Goblin is the nickname, is it? Yeah, well King Hobb is how they refer to him, but yeah, Hobb is a reference to a goblin type creature. Right, and Mary Lane, there's a very famous story that I don't know if you've heard but at one point Robert is sort of You know hiding in a cave and then find some inspiration from an animal and decides that he's gonna turn it around Do you know what animal is? I do know this story. This is what this was based off the true story of Charlotte's Web

Yeah, a lot more violent. But yeah, yeah He was sitting in a cave and he was ready to give up and he sees a spider and the spider is making its web in the cave and the spider's web fails and he's like, there, see, we're the same. But then the spider attempts again and he's like, oh, and the web fails again but then the spider goes again and again and he watches this this determination of the spider and he's like if the spider can go again so can I but I like to think of it like wishful thinking because he ever been like man if that spider makes a web I'll try again and the web breaks and he's like okay that's a sign I shouldn't try again maybe if it tries this time I'll try

it again but is that true did that actually happen did he sit in a cave and watch a spider? is like, OK, that's a sign I shouldn't try again. Maybe if I tried this time, I'll try again. But is that true? Did that actually happen? Did he sit in a cave and watch a spider? Probably not, no. That's not true. It's a nice story. But no, it's probably one of these things

that enters into the myth around Robert. Although there's the possibility, Michael Perman argues that it might actually have been originally that Bruce was hiding in a cave and was perhaps visited by a local saint. So there is that kind of saintly intercession to persuade him to keep going. But then post-Reformation Scotland,

the saint is removed from the story and is replaced by a spider. Why can it not be true, though? It seems so plausible. Have you ever watched the spider? They're terrible. He's ready to come back. So what does that mean Ian? What is the come back, the Hollywood come back? He plans to come back to Scotland. He sends two of his brothers, Thomas and Alexander, as an advance party to Scotland, but they are captured by his

enemies and executed. So he only has one brother left. But despite that, he sails for Scotland, makes landfall and is able to raise rebellion in the southwest of Scotland. And he wins a couple of victories relatively early on at Glen Trull and at Loudoun Hill. And Loudoun is direct revenge for his defeat at Methven because the English forces at Loudoun are led by Amr de Valence, who also led the English forces there. But the battle also shows that God was on Robert's side, and that's very useful propaganda for Robert, who sends out priests into the Scottish countryside to tell the people that the King has returned and that God is on his side to try and stir up support for him over

these early months. Go back to School with Rogers and get Canada's fastest and most reliable internet. want. Did you know that it's 50 years this week since Richard Nixon became the first US president in history to resign from office. To mark this monumental moment, Witness History brings you five programs about influential events in US Presidential history. And with all the amazing twists and turns in the current race for the White House, what

a time to bring you them. You'll hear about the closest US election in history and from the man who was in the Situation Room during the raid on Osama bin Laden. That's Witness History from the BBC World Service. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your BBC podcasts. We've got a new enemy to introduce the story, Marry Alain. Edward I comes up to face Robert again, you know, for the 19th time, and he dies, right? And so in comes his son, Edward II. What kills Edward I?

Old age, I think, really. He is an old man by this point. Well done. Well done to do that in that day and age. And considering the life he's had, you know, rebellions and crusades and war in Wales, war in France, war in Scotland. He lives a pretty long life considering the hard life he perhaps led. But yes he dies just shy of the border and he orders his son to continue his campaign into Scotland but Edward II only spends about two

weeks in Scotland and then swans off home to start planning for his coronation. And what about the Earl of Buchan? He's showing up as well, isn't he? Who's this guy? So the death of Edward I and the abandonment of the campaign by Edward II means that Robert Bruce now has a pretty free hand to do what he wants. And so what he decides to do is instead of taking on the English garrisons,

what he needs to do first is actually defeat his Scottish enemies. And so he spends the next couple of years campaigning mostly in North West and North East Scotland to take out those various families who stand against them. And in 1308, that includes a campaign in Buchan, where the other Buchan is another member of the common family. And Bruce, across these campaigns, uses violent warfare, fire, destruction in order to force his enemies to surrender and just the sheer violence of Bruce's campaigns against his Scottish enemies is so extreme.

No wonder he won over Scotland eventually because that's just like classic clan warfare. That's what Scotland gets up to, they never left to their own devices, right? Yeah, I think we have to remember that Bruce uses the carrot and the stick, but he uses the stick quite liberally. Yeah, it's a very big stick and a very small carrot. It's not all winning hearts and minds. No, I thought it would have been some rousing speech of what his multilingualism he has. Yeah, but he does go back to fighting the English, so it's not just ravaging his own

country. So let's get back to the raid on the northern towns in 1311. That's him taking on Ed with the Second Kingdom, right? So is this him going on the advance? Yeah, so once his Scottish enemies are defeated from around 1310 onwards, yes, he then starts to take on those Scottish- held towns and garrisons which have English troops in them. But he also bypasses some of those and just goes straight for England and starts raiding into Northern England to put pressure on Emperor

II. And those Scottish attacks tend to just steal anything that's not nailed down, cattle, sheep, crops, money. But as time goes on and the Scots repeat this over a longer period of time, they actually start to extract protection money and blackmail out of these communities. If you want to be left alone, if you don't want your town to be burned, pay us this amount of money and we'll leave you in peace for 12 months. We'll be back in 12 months so you can pay again, but we will leave you in peace for that time. That's a lovely sheep you've got there. it'd be a shame if something happened to it. I mean Robert's also taking castles, he's taking English castles, he's doing it quite an interesting way,

he's swimming across the moats, they're using fold-up ladders which is quite good, there's also one very fun technique they use, Mary Lane, it's involving the cows that they've stolen. What do you think, what do you think that is? Oh can I make a guess of how I would do it? I feel like this is a play on what they did in Troy But you can't hide an army in a cow, but you could hide in explosives Did they send in exploding cows? I love the idea of exploding cows. It's very Monty Python. You're kind of right with the Trojan thing a little bit

They basically disguise themselves as cows, which I think we have to call camouflage, right? You're basically sneaking into the castle as a herd of cows, just going, nothing to see here, moo! And then, yeah. That's incredible. But also, I'm not surprised at work, because I've ever seen drawings from the medieval ages of animals. And they've all just got human faces.

That's true. That's true. Maybe that's where that comes from. It's utterly unrecognizable. Hey! Hey! They're really milking it. Ha ha ha! In Ferris in the English, though, they do do it at dusk.

So it's relatively dark. And the English aren't expecting. No one's expecting the army dalmatians dressed as cows. Well, no, it's not really as cows. They just throw a cloak over themselves and just kind of like shimmy forward. But, um. Yeah, but I mean, come on.

They're doing the moo sound. Of course they are. You have to, you'd have to commit to it, wouldn't you? October 1313, Robert held a parliament, Ian, at Dundee. And here he's issuing an ultimatum. Christ, they can get into Edinburgh. What's the ultimatum, Ian? So yes, by this point, Scotland is almost wholly recovered.

So Bruce feels confident enough now that he can issue an ultimatum that says, any of his enemies have the opportunity now to submit, but they have to do it within a year. By this point, had he traveled and battled far scythe enough, his English lands were technically now Scottish, and that's when he changed the rules. Ha ha ha! If only. No, his English lands had long since been confiscated by the English crown.

So now he doesn't have English lands anymore. He's like, no one can have English lands. Yes, pretty much. Okay, so we're now 1314 and I think a lot of listeners will probably know that year because of the Battle of Bannockburn. It's a very iconic famous military victory for Bruce and Ian, I know it's a very complicated battle, it's across a couple of days, but in terms of the speed of what he's doing, why is Bannockburn a big win for him? What does he do that's so impressive? It is the first real large scale Scottish battlefield victory over an English army,

and it'll probably be the last one for a while as well. It's also a victory against an English king in the field, which doesn't happen very often. It is a massive victory. You can perhaps say that it's overstated in terms of what it achieves in the long term, because the war continues, Edward II doesn't give up.

But what the battle does do is give the Scots, give Bruce a lot of English prisoners, and he's able to use them to exchange for various Scottish captives, including his wife, including his daughter, his sisters, and he's finally able to welcome them back to Scotland. And with the return of his wife, of course, he is able to then look to the future

and start trying to produce sons, which of course he has yet to do. And maybe by now she's of legal age. Yeah, hopefully, yeah. So Elizabeth is straight out of captivity, but not given any time to rest, no time for a spa day. She is tasked straight away with trying to give Robert an heir.

But there's not much time for rekindling the romance between Robert and Elizabeth because Robert's now off to invade Ireland. What? Yes, so the Scots decide to make hay in the aftermath of Bannetburn and put more pressure on Edward II. So yes, Edward Bruce, Robert's sole surviving brother, invades Ireland in May 1315 and this is perhaps to, I said to put more pressure on Edward, it's to force him to commit forces to defend his Irish colony, it could perhaps encourage Irish attacks against the English, it certainly stops the supply of English troops and food which gets sent to England to help the war in Scotland and it may even have been an attempt to form a kind of Celtic alliance, including with the Welsh,

to oppose the English on more than one front. And the Irish campaign isn't the only thing that the Scots double down on their raids into Northern England. And they progress further and further south. They get as far as Lancashire in the West and North Yorkshire in the East. And they really do control almost large swathes

of Northern England and importantly Edward II essentially does nothing about this and all of this is just meant to put more and more pressure on the English King. G. Meanwhile Robert Bruce has been excommunicated by the Pope a second time. S. Why? What did he do this time? B. I think the expansion of the war doesn't go down well. The papacy, let's face it, is all about trying to foment peace in Europe and so Robert gets excommunicated again, yes, I think the expansion of the war doesn't go down well. The papacy, let's face it, is all about trying to foment peace in Europe.

And so Robert gets excommunicated again, yes, for extending the war into Ireland and for breaking periods of truth that the papacy is trying to bring in. OK, but then in 1320, we have the Declaration of Arbroath, which is a big deal, big constitutional moment. And this is Robert trying to sort of fix that? Yeah, so by 132020 not only has Bruce himself been excommunicated but yes

Scotland as a whole is put under a papal interdict so no religious ceremonies can take place, services can take place at all, no baptisms, no burials, that's what that censure ensures. It's a big deal right? It is and what the papacy allows is for Scots to break their oath to Robert the First and so to reject him. And the idea there would be perhaps that he would be overthrown and replaced. But none of this effectively works in large part because the Scottish clergy on the whole is supportive of Bruce and supportive of keeping Scotland independent and keeping the Scottish

Church independent from the Scottish Church independent from the English Church. Three letters are constructed to be sent to the papacy, only one of which survives today, and that is the famous Declaration of Our Broath. And it emphasizes that the Scots are the victims, it emphasizes that the English are the ones who started the war,

and that they invaded peace-loving Scotland, and it emphasizes very clearly that the Scots support Bruce as the sole and legitimate king. You say that but then William Soules tries to launch a conspiracy to get rid of him so it's not everyone's on site. Yes, in the same year that the Declaration of Our Growth is created there is a rebellion against Bruce which is known to history as the Sewell's conspiracy. And not very much is known about it, but enough is known that it would seem to have been several months where the King himself probably has to campaign in Scotland

to put it down. And then there's a series of kind of show trials, what's known as the Black Parliament, where the various conspirators are put on trial, including one particular individual who has died in the interim and is dug up and his corpse are put on trial, including one particular individual who has died in the interim and is dug up and his corpse is put on trial. Yeah. Ha ha ha! We love that. Absolutely.

But by and large, Bruce has to. Is someone just poppeting it like, he is guilty? Yes. Like, he's like. If you listen to our medical papers the episode, that's happened before. It's a thing. The feeling I get is that Robert Bruce had zero time

for doing any basic governance. He's just constantly at war with England or his own people or he's in war with Ireland. And I don't know if he's a good king, Ian. Is he a good king in terms of day-to-day laws and stuff? I think that in all the narratives, including ones from the Medieval period, yes, the amount of time that's covered about him just governing is very small.

We tend to be attracted by and the chronicles right about the battles, the campaigns, the exciting stuff. But no, I mean, throughout the 1320s and then indeed from before that, Bruce has been trying to reconstruct this kingdom that has been devastated by a few decades by this point of war and dislocation. Devastated by him. Well, yeah, that too. But that's a means toward end, Greg.

So yeah, there is that attempt to try and bring back normal government on a national and a local level to bring back basic law and order and to try and kickstart the Scottish economy so that it is able to recover. I mean Scotland as well is going through a period this time as is most of Europe of climate change, the weather is atrocious and so it also then brings widespread famine, it brings diseases that ravage cattle and sheep and so it's a pretty appalling time all around and then you have Scottish raids and campaigns and English invasions on the back of that. So yeah the kingdom itself is cattle and sheep. And so it's a pretty appalling time all around. And then you have Scottish

raids and campaigns and English invasions on the back of that. So yeah, the kingdom itself is pretty devastated. So yes, Bruce spends that best part of that second decade very much trying to get Scotland back on its feet and arguably does a pretty good job of it. And he's got legitimate heir. In fact, he's got two. He's got John and David, who are twins. So he's got twin boys, an heir and a spare, and he's got three legitimate heir. In fact, he's got two. He's got John and David, who are twins. So he's got twin boys, an heir and a spare, and he's got three daughters, Margaret, Matilda, and Elizabeth.

So five kids, he's doing well in that regard. Why did he forget the name Robert? Why did he break that tradition? He called one of his sons John. Yeah, John and David. After John Common. And John Balliol, his enemies. Yes, after John Balliol.

So there's an idea about that. So Michael Pemmering has suggested perhaps that John was the elder of the two twins. And he's deliberately named John because if you then have a King John following King Robert, then you just completely remove John Balliol from the picture because you call him John the First or he would effectively be John the First. So there was no John before. Petty, so it's like, oh, you can kill me, but then you'll never be the first John.

Yes. That's amazing. And I think David, perhaps, there's obviously the biblical illusion, but also I think that's to reinforce the family's descent. Ultimately, Robert the Fifth, Bruce traced his descent back to David L. of Huntington, and before that, to King David the

first. So I think it's very much about reinforcing that we are the legitimate kings. By this mid-1320s or so, Robert's not in good health, which I think is important to know. There's a sort of quote saying that he can't move apart from his tongue, but things are also going bad in England because Edward II gets chucked off the throne and then murdered by his wife And her lover. And her lover. So Isabella, Queen of England, sort of basically does in And puts Edward III on the throne Does Robert do a deal with the new English King, Edward III or Isabella even, the mum?

Yes, with Isabella So Edward III is not yet of age to rule in his own right, and so Isabella is essentially regent for her son. And while Edward III isn't necessarily happy about it, the Scots manage to get an extracted deal out of Isabella and her government for peace. I think both kingdoms have, by this point, largely had enough, and indeed Isabella needs money to help prop up her regime so yes a series of agreements are made

that are known collectively as the treaties of Edinburgh and Northampton and this arranges for a final peace between Scotland and England in 1328. Scotland and England form a mutual alliance. This is it, this is peace, this is Robert, King of Scotland, that's a big, big win. How do you think he celebrated Mary-Elaine? I feel like if we're going to go by a pattern of Robert's behaviour which is always the opposite of what you should do, I think he thinks when everything's laid out on a plate and good, he's like, hey, Edward the Three is so young, he's just a baby let's invade England is that what he does on this occasion he doesn't he does

the classic thing of a child wedding which Ian has already alluded to so he marries off the four-year-old son David to the seven-year-old sister of King Edward the third so not John that's clever. So he doesn't marry off the eldest. He's dead by this point, so David's the only one left. Okay, okay, sorry. It's not funny. It's not funny, but it is funny. So David, to the heir to the throne, is betrothed to a seven-year-old girl from England, the Princess Joan.

And then Robert goes on a pilgrimage. But he also throws a wedding party. Well, I mean, Ian, do you want to tell us this? Because this is a good story. So the significant sums are put aside to pay for the wedding and the Scots apparently pay £1,500 Scots for the wedding. And such a good time was had by some of the revelers that apparently a nearby church wall was knocked down as a result. Wow and we get mad when plastic chairs are thrown these days. Exactly. Robert we've already said was in poor health, when did he die Ian?

So he dies eventually on the 7th of June 1329 aged 54. We don't really know what killed him. It could have been his long years of hard campaigning, meant he developed something that did for him. He's accused of having leprosy, which is possible, but that disease is also associated with, you know, God's judgment on you, and so it might be English propaganda. It could be something like syphilis, we don't really know.

But his Italian doctor apparently complained of him eating too many eels. But I don't think that's what killed him. That's only going to make you stronger, eating eels. You never get told to do that when you're a child. Finish your eels. They'll help you grow good long arms. OK, so we don't know what killed him, but we think, well,

I think he died of an unknown eel-ness. There you go. Classic pun. Sorry. Right, moving on. Mary Lane, when I say he died of an unknown illness. There you go, classic pun. Sorry, right, moving on. Mary Lane, when I say Robert's heart would go on, much like Celine Dion, what do you think I mean by that? Oh no. Did they take his heart out of his body

and parade it around the towns? Oh, further than around the towns, they took it as far as you could basically go in medieval Europe. Shetland? Ha ha far. They went to Jerusalem? Yeah that's the plan. That's the plan. I just I cannot get past these boys trips to Jerusalem where they're like we're gonna go definitely do a holy pilgrimage. It's like you're not this is like this is just a lads yeah l, lads, lads, lads.

A lads year away. It's his best mate James Douglas who takes the heart out of his body, puts it in a heart shaped casket. It's a sort of lovely touching gross bromance thing. Does he get to Jerusalem Ian with the heart? He does not, no way. He gets as far as Spain. That's not close. There are still kind of crusades type activities going on in Spain at the time against Muslim occupied south. So Douglas gets involved in a siege in a skirmish outside the town of Teba and is killed in the skirmish.

The heart has to be rescued after the battle and after he's killed. Later Scottish writing suggests though or makes the argument that Douglas actually chucked the heart casket into the midst of the fray and dove in after it. But I think that's probably a later creation. That's amazing. When you lob a heart in like a grenade, that's literally a heart attack. Yeah.

Exactly. That's sort of. Do you think he did that? Do you think he had some big old rock in one hand, the heart in another? Through the heart was like, oh, wrong one. I better get it back. Yeah, sort of run in to try and fetch it.

Was killed in the process. So Robert Bruce dead, his friend dead, his heart lost somewhere in Spain and then recovered probably and buried in Melrose Abbey. The Nuance Window. So it's time now for The Nuance window. This is the part of the show where Mary-Elaine and I relax with a cup of tea and a scone, or should that be scoon, for two minutes while Ian tells us something we need to know about Robert Bruce. My stopwatch is ready, take

it away Ian. So Robert is an impressive figure. His is a Hollywood story, rising from the depths of defeat in 1306 to make himself king, molding a country from the war-torn state in which it has sunk, and to an organizing functioning medieval kingdom again. No one would argue that. However, the popular imagination has grown around the belief that everything ended with the peace of 1328 and with Robert's death in 1329 and this isn't the case unfortunately. While the King does all he can he nonetheless ends up leaving Scotland to his five-year-old heir David. A long minority is likely to follow and minorities are in secure periods at

the best of times and these are not the best of times. There are those as the Sewell's conspiracy showed who continue to to not support Robert. They're biding their time and waiting to see what happens next. In England, there's Edward III, who hates the peace treaties, agreed in his name, and is itching to exert his power over his mother and his kingdom. And there are individuals and families who are forced into exile and to abandon their claims to lands in Scotland because they refuse to support Robert. And they are also out there waiting for their chance. And these disinherited lords have a figurehead

in Edward Balliol, son of King John of Scotland, and an alternative claimant to the throne. And so all of this is looming over the horizon as we look forward from Robert's death in 1329. And ultimately, his death is not the end of things. Balliol and the disinherited invade Scotland in 1332 and recommence the Bruce Baillieu Civil War that Robert the First had arguably started himself when he murdered John Common in Dumfries.

This extends a year later as the English join the conflict and so the Wars of Independence recommence once more and continue for a further 25 years before the rights and independence that Robert the First thought he'd won are arguably won for good. And even then, Scotland is not what it was in 1329. Parts of the borders are lost for decades. Berwick-pon-Tweed, some periods in the 15th century apart, is lost forever. And while this is not all Robert's fault, he certainly contributed to the context in which these events ultimately occurred and he set the scene for the years of conflict that followed. Mary Helene, how do you feel about Robert Bruce now? I think I'm overwhelmed by

everything I've learned today. It is a lot and we've got a quiz for you. After this quiz I'll know how I feel about Robert the Bruce. So what do you know now? Right so it's time now for the so what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for marielane to see how much she has learned and overwhelmed is the word that you used So that's that's hopefully hopefully you won't break down into any kind of emotional turmoil as we go through these I've got ten questions for you. Are you feeling? Yeah How you feeling? yeah, ten. How are you feeling? Three more than how many Bruce's I learned about today. Hey, very

good. Well that might be one of the questions. I'm feeling okay if I can look at my notes but I'm also worried because sometimes I just wrote nicknames instead of people's actual names. I'll accept nicknames. If they're good, if they're catchy, I'm alright with that. Okay, ten questions. Here we go. Question one. What was the great cause? Oh, the great cause was Edward I being like, hey, I'll pick the king if the king can then worship me as King-King. Yes, that's absolutely right. Yes, King-King. Very good. Overlord. Very good.

Well done. straight in. Question two, how many Robert Bruces had there been before our Robert Bruce? Six, as was the seventh. Very good. Question three, who was the unlikely matchmaker between Robert and his second very young wife, Elizabeth the Berg?

Again, sneaky old Edward the first. It was. Question four, what violent act got Robert X communicated for the first time in Dumfries? The old church killing. Yes John Commons murder in a church. Question five. What monstrous nickname did Robert's enemies give to him in exile? King Hob.

And then after that you went Hobgoblin around the kingdom in Ireland. That's right you did. Question six. What type of animals did Robert's soldiers dress up as to retake castles? Oh, Cai. Sorry, that's Shetland for cows. Yes, cows. Very good. Cai. Lovely. Very nice. Question seven. Can you name the famous iconic battle that Robert won against the English in June 1314? Bannockburn, which is the only thing I could have answered before today. Okay, this for question eight. Can you name Robert's twin sons?

John and David. Very good. Question nine, we're not sure what killed Robert, but what did Robert's Italian doctor blame for his eventual death? Oh, so I was too busy writing syphilis Was it leprosy? Leprosy is one of them. I did a stupid pun about a squirmy animal Oh, he'd eaten too many eels. Eels, very good All right this for a perfect 10 out of 10 And this is a tricky one because we mentioned this very, very quickly. Oh no. In what year was the Stone of Scone finally returned to Scotland?

Oh, I actually drew this earlier on. Oh no, and then I forgot and drew a big question mark next to it. Give me a decade. Oh, was it 1999? 1996, I'll accept it. I'll take the decade. 10 out of 10, Mary-Elaine Robertson. Well done. Incredible. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. And well done, Ian, for the excellent teaching. Covered an awful lot there, haven't we? We've

really rampaged through, much like Robert Bruce himself. We've smashed through the subject and then apologised at the end. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Thank you so much, Mary-Elaine. Thank you, Ian. Listener, if you want more Scottish history, check out our episode on the Jacobites, which a fun one and for more scheming medieval royals we have episodes on Emma of Normandy and Eleanor of Aquitaine and remember if you've enjoyed the podcast please leave a review share the show with friends subscribe to your dead to me on BBC sound so you never miss an episode I just like to say huge thank you to our guests in history corner we had the incredible

Dr. Ian McInnes from the University of the Highlands and Islands thank you Ian Many thanks Greg and thank you Marjolein. It's been lots of fun. It has been fun. And in Comedy Corner we had the magnificent Marjolein Robertson. Thank you Marjolein. Thank you, this is amazing. I learnt a lot and had fun. Thank you very much and to you lovely listener join me next time as we do battle with another historical heavyweight. But for now, I'm off to go and consult a spider for some career advice, bye! ["Dead to Me"] This episode of You're Dead to Me

was researched by Anna McCully Stewart. It was written by Anna McCully Stewart, Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Naguse and me, the audio producer was Steve Hankey, and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emma Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Naguse, and our production coordinator was Ben Hollands. It was produced by Emeros Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer Emma Noghoss and our executive editor was James Cook.

From BBC Radio 4, John Holmes says the C word. I am John Holmes and last year I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. Following surgery, I'm recovering just fine now thanks for asking but it's all been a bit weird and I think it feels weird not least because men don't really like talking about this stuff. So I've gathered together a load of other men who've been through it for brutally honest and yes funny conversations about all things cancer. Across the series we'll be hearing from amongst many others Stephen Fry. you saved my life. Oh my goodness. It's a wonderful thing to hear. Eric Idle.

It's not the most desirable side effect, but it's funny. And the BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen. I took a dump on a newspaper. John Holmes says the C word. Listen on BBC Sounds. Did you know that it's 50 years this week since Richard Nixon became the first US President in history to resign from office? To mark this monumental moment, Witness History brings you 5 programs about influential events in US Presidential history. And with all the amazing twists and turns in the current race for the White House, what

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