You're Dead to Me - Simón Bolívar

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined by historian Dr Francisco Eissa-Barroso and comedian Katie Green to learn all about the complicated life and legacy of nineteenth-century South American revolutionary leader Simón Bolívar. Bolívar liberated six modern countries from Spanish colonial rule, but also had himself appointed president for life, and argued that popular elections had led to the failure of earlier revolutions. Taking in Bolívar’s political philosophy, scandalous personal relationships, and constant military struggles to liberate and unify South America, this episode explores the life, times, and legend of this complex man. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Roxy Moore Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Caitlin Hobbs Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are gathering our troops and quick marching back to 19th century South America to learn all about revolutionary leader Simon Bolivar.

And to help us, we have two very special comrades in arms. In History Corner, he's a senior lecturer in Latin American history at the University of Manchester, specialising in the political, social and military history of early modern Spanish America and the broader Spanish world. You may have read his book, The Spanish Monarchy and the Creation of the Vice-Royalty of New Granada. It's Dr Francisco Eza Barroso. Welcome, Frank. Thanks, Greg. Great to be here. And in Comedy Corner, she's a rising star on both sides of the Atlantic. She's been featured in HBO's Women in Comedy Festival, Laughfest, the San Diego Comedy Festival, and she was a Funny Women finalist in 2020. Maybe you saw her in Edinburgh Fringe last year or caught her on TV's Comedy Central Live.

It's the wonderful Katie Green. Welcome to the show, Katie. Hi, thank you for having me. Katie, your first time on the podcast. You have Latin American heritage and a master's degree in Latin American studies. Is that right? I do, but I'm still worried it doesn't mean much, OK? I can see the panic in your face already. OK, let's be more generous. Are you good on history in general? I'm not good at retaining knowledge.

So that makes history very difficult for me. Most of my degree was as little as possible. Okay, bare minimum, Katie Green. Good to know. Yes. And what about Simon Bolivar? Does the name ring a bell? Do you know anything about him? I know some things. Good things? Bad things? I know some good things. I know some bad things. This feels like gossip now. If anything's framed as gossip, then I know.

What do you know about him? Ooh, he messed around. He did. I know that. That's some gossip I've heard on the streets. The Liberator. So he liberated most countries in South America. This feels like the quiz has started now.

So, what do you know? Let's start the podcast properly with the first segment. This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subjects. And unless you are listening from South America, I'm guessing you probably recognise the name Bolivar. You may even know that there's a country named after him, of course, Bolivia.

But you might not know why it's named after him. If you're a gamer, you might have come across Bolivar in our favourite games, Age of Empires III or Civilisation VI, which we're always quoting, aren't we? He's the central character in Gabriel Garcia Marquez's novel The General in his labyrinth. There are many TV and movie adaptations of him, Spanish language adaptations. There's Bolivar on Netflix. There's the 2013 film, The Liberator. And yes, spoiler alert, he liberated six countries from Spanish imperial rule. But how did a revolutionary hero end up as a dictator?

Let's find out, shall we? Right then, Dr. Frank, can we start at the beginning? Where and when are we placing our young Simon Bolivar? You know, when is he born? Where is he born? What's his family situation? Is he kind of a plucky upstart street urchin, or is he pretty comfortable? Simon José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad Bolívar y Palacios. That's a name for you. What a name. So he was born in Caracas, Venezuela, on the 24th of July, 1783, to Juan Vicente Bolívar y Ponte and María de la Concepción Palacios y Blanco.

He had two older sisters and an older brother, and his parents had been married in 1773, when his mother was 14 and his father 46. Oh, no, that's a terrible age gap. Katie, I mean, that's a slight panic face almost. That's pretty gross. Pretty disgusting that. Although we share a birthday, him and I.

So maybe that's not good for me. You're 24th of July as well? Yes. OK, so problematic marriage klaxon honked straight away into the episode. And for listeners, Venezuela is on the northern point of South America, isn't it? It's up on the Caribbean coast. So Caracas is almost on the sea, I think. But Venezuela is part of Spain, or at least the Spanish Empire, Frank.

Yes, exactly. So the Spanish first came in contact with what we now call Venezuela in the 1490s, and shortly afterwards it became part of the Spanish Empire. By the 18th century, Venezuela's society was highly racialised and split into various groups, including peninsular Spaniards, white people born in Spain. Creoles were white people descended from Spaniards but born in Venezuela, usually upper class and wealthy. Blancos de orilla, or poor whites, often immigrants from the Canary Islands. Mixed race pardos, black enslaved and free people, and indigenous groups.

And the Bolívar family were Creoles and were very, very wealthy members of the Venezuelan elite. In fact, Bolivar's dad was probably one of the 14 richest men in Venezuela. Wow. OK, so not a street urchin then. And they're Creoles, so they're born in Venezuela, but of Spanish descent. Is that right? Exactly. OK, great. And Katie, today we might describe an important person as a big cheese. But do you want to guess why Bolivar's dad was described as the big cocoa, the big chocolate? Did he own cacao plantations? He did. They were

known as Grandes Cacao. The main source of income was from chocolate production. They had two cocoa plantations. They also had four houses in Caracas, three cattle ranches, two sugar plantations, one copper mine and a partridge in a pear tree. Not the last one. Sorry, that was me being silly. But they've got a lot of stuff. How do you imagine his childhood, Simon Bolivar? Well, didn't his dad die when he was really young, though? Oh.

I read a biography, but only about 11 pages. So I think I've gotten to that point. And then the rest, it was like, let's just wing it. Let's guess it. You were too bummed out. You're right. His dad did die young. Frank, it's actually a very, born into great wealth,

but it's a very tragic childhood for Simon Bolivar. He loses not just one parent, but both. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Both his parents had succumbed to tuberculosis by the time Bolivar was nine. And as a young, wealthy orphan, he was first sent to live with his maternal grandfather and then with his uncle, Carlos Palacios y Blanco, who was mainly interested in Bolivar's inheritance. Shortly after Bolívar's mother died, Bolívar started his formal education at the Escuela Pública de Caracas, but aged just 12, he ran away from Caracas to live with his sister. His uncle, who was mostly unimpressed with this, sued Bolívar and forced him to return to his house. Bolívar later spent time in the elite militia as a cadet before being promoted

to second lieutenant. So he ran away from home at 12 and then was sued by his uncle. Katie, have you ever sued a child? And if not, why not? Well, I mean, I've never met a child that has that much money. So maybe I would have if I knew how much money they had. So he became a military cadet. He became promoted to second lieutenant. We're not sure if that was because he was rich and he bought his commission or if he was any good at war. And then, Katie, he did a classic posh boy thing, age 16. What do posh 16-year-old boys do, well, maybe slightly older, do when they leave home, usually here in Britain? They get girls pregnant.

No, I don't know. They might do. I don't know. They go to Spain. They get girls pregnant. No, I don't know. They might do. I don't know. They go to Spain. They do. They go to Spain. They go to Spain and get girls pregnant. They literally go to Spain and maybe get girls pregnant.

But for legal reasons, let's not go too far into that. But that's certainly what Simon Bolivar kind of tried to do. He went on a gap year. At age 16, he went to Spain. He went to Madrid in 1799, spent a lot of money there, lived very decadently, annoyed even more uncles. But he does have a holiday romance. I'm not sure if there's a pregnancy.

I think there's a holiday romance, though, Frank, isn't there? Yes, there is, although it all ended in tragedy. So in 1800, at the age of 17, Bolívar I laid eyes on María Teresa Rodríguez del Toro y Alaiza, a 19-year-old madrileña with a pale complexion and dark eyes and hair. And it was love at first sight. They were married in San Sebastián in the Basque country on the 26th of May 1802. And three weeks later, they set sail for Caracas.

But their happiness was actually quite short-lived. weeks later, they set sail for Caracas. But their happiness was actually quite short-lived. On the 22nd of January, 1803, just six months after their arrival in South America, Maria Teresa died from yellow fever. So heartbroken, Bolívar vowed never to remarry. And it clearly impacted him deeply. He later wrote, Had I not been widowed, perhaps my life would have been different. I would not be General Bolivar. It's really sad, Katie. He's lost both his parents by nine. He moves on, finds a beautiful young woman, marries her and loses her at 20.

Yeah, he needs therapy. He needs therapy really badly. Oh, my God. Also, he still got with a lot of women. So is it true that he never married again, but he's still got with lots of girls? It's the heartbreak. All right. Well, the heartbreak. Okay.

I don't know. I'm taking the sympathetic route. You're clearly going on a slightly more cynical route, but that's okay. I don't trust him. Okay. All right. Already we've got a point of view on him. It is tremendously sad. He moves on in another way, I suppose. He goes on another gap here,

Frank. In his early 20s, he comes this time to Paris in France, which of course, at this point in history, there's just been the French Revolution, Katie. There's been political violence. There's been guillotinings. He's suddenly in amongst a real moment in time, Frank. Yes, and at least later on, Bolivar claimed that during this time in Paris, he had a kind of political awakening. Although we don't know how much of this is just retrospective myth-making on his behalf. So apparently in Paris, Bolivar became influenced by Enlightenment thinkers, especially Locke and Montesquieu,

and quickly came to believe in the need for independence, for liberty, equality, republicanism, and centralized government. He strongly opposed federalism of any kind. And Bolivar was also an avid reader of 19th century political writers, people like Benjamin Constant or Madame d'Estelle, whose ideas went beyond the Enlightenment, but are less known today. He had also grown up in a highly politicised environment in its own right, with its own very rich political tradition. And indeed, elites across the Spanish world read 18th and 19th century treatises through the lenses of Spanish political thought.

He's reading a lot. He's reading philosophers. He's reading writers. He's getting deep into the kind of political tension of the day. But he's also in France during the rise of a superstar. Do you know who the political superstar is in 1804, Katie? Napoleon? Yeah, it is Napoleon. Very good. I think that was on page 11. Now I think I'm done with all my knowledge. You think that was it?

That book's done quite well, 11 pages. They've crowned quite a lot in. Yes. Yeah, so on the 2nd of December, 1804, Napoleon Bonaparte crowned himself Emperor of France. And we think Bolivar was in Paris at the time. So he may have perhaps seen the coronation ceremony, we don't know, or the parade. Young Bolivar, age 21, 22, Do you think he's a fan of Napoleon? Do you think he's excited by Napoleon? I think he's a fan. But how tall was Simon? Because I feel like he couldn't look up to him that much, you know. He's like, there must be some flaws. I'm picturing Simon being like six feet.

Oh. Maybe I've romanticized him. He gives off six foot energy in his statues. Yeah. Whereas we know Napoleon was a little bit slightly more average heighted. But you think he's a fan. That's your general guess here. But wasn't he a fan and then he didn't like him

anymore because he wasn't good? You do know stuff. I mean, you pretend that you don't know anything, but this is all the stuff in my script. I mean, Frank, Simon Bolivar, he's seeing Napoleon come to power, but is he impressed by this former army

man who's taken power? To me, no. What we know from Bolivar's own writing, to what extent this is written ex post facto to build an image, we don't know. But what he says is that he's both impressed and repelled by Napoleon, that he's quite impressed by his achievements, especially as a military commander, and the love and glory bestowed upon him by the French people. But at the same time, he claims to be repelled by his compromises and his method of ruling. He's saying Napoleon's a centrist. Never heard him called that before.

And having left Paris, Katie, do you want to guess where he goes next, Simon Bolivar? It's another European destination. Is it a new place? It's a new place. Okay, so he's doing a little Euro trip now. He is. He's another European destination. Is it a new place? It's a new place. Okay, so he's doing a little Euro trip now. He's got a rail card. Italy? Yes, very good. Look at you. I was just thinking what I would do. You're getting in his mindset. Yeah, he goes to Rome, where he meets none other than the Pope. How old is he now? About 22, 23, I think.

He's pretty young. He's not impressed. What Pope is this? This is Pope Pius VII. Oh, not impressive. No, not even in your top 20. No, no. Frank, I'm quite surprised that Simon Bolivar is not impressed by the Pope.

Why is this? So Bolivar, by this point, is more or less an atheist, or at least very critical of the role of the Catholic Church in Spanish control of Spanish America. So when they meet, Bolivar actually refuses to bend down to kiss the Pope's slippers, agreeing instead to just kiss his ring. But Rome, however, had a transformative impact in Bolivar's life in another way. Inspired by the ancient city and its glorious history, Bolivar apparently made a vow. He said more or less this, right? I swear before you, I swear before the god of my fathers, I swear by my fathers, I swear by my honor, I swear by my country that I will not Again, though, we might have to be careful about whether this is myth-making on Bolívar's part,

but that's how the official story goes. Wow, it's quite the vow. I swear I will not rest until I have broken the chains with which Spanish power oppresses us. Katie, what's the best vow you've ever made and have you managed to keep it? Oh, gosh. I just found out that he was only 5'6", so I'm deeply saddened. Yes, one of the research team has just put on the screen, Bolivar, 5'6", and Katie's face foul, your crestfallen.

Wow, I feel like on his profile he put six feet. I don't know why. How tall was Napoleon? Yeah, about 5'6", probably. About the same height. No. Is that with the hat on? Probably not with the hat.

The hat's probably giving him another couple of inches. Yeah. Oh, God. Greatest vow I've ever made. Maybe I'll save that for marriage, but at this rate it's not happening. So maybe I'll never have to make a vow ever in my made. Maybe I'll save that for marriage, but at this rate, it's not happening. So maybe I'll never have to make a vow ever in my life. Okay. Yeah. Don't be encumbered. Okay. Fair enough. Well, Simon Bolivar, he makes his vow in 1805 in Rome, decides that he's going to commit himself to independence. And so they

sail back to Venezuela in 1806 and they get back to Venezuela. And immediately I'm picturing him fired up with zeal, beating, you know, he's going to build the barricades in the streets of Caracas. He's going to be singing songs from Les Miserables. But actually, Frank, it sounds like his revolutionary fervor doesn't really go anywhere initially. Yeah. So initially, there's very little anti-Spanish support in Venezuela. So Bolívar basically just returns to his cocoa plantations. However, everything changed when Napoleon invaded the Iberian Peninsula in 1808, forcing the abdication of the Spanish Bourbon dynasty. Shocked by the news, both colonial authorities and leading local elites in Venezuela reject the new French rulers. They create a temporary loyalist ruling union of officials and leading local citizens, which very much parallels the Junta movement in Spain, which witnessed the emergence of local committees to control local government in the name of the Spanish king and to organize the resistance against French rule. So on 19th April

1810, when he was facing a revolutionary coup in Caracas, the Spanish appointed captain general of Venezuela, Vicente de Amparan, conceded power and the local cabildo or city council became the ruling authority. And while theoretically they were loyal to King Ferdinand VII, the new government replaced Emperan with local elites, but it was not strictly a revolution against Spanish rule. It was more just a desire to not become citizens of France. Basically, Napoleon has invaded Spain, so Spain is now French, which means that Venezuela is now French. So it's all got a bit confusing, Katie. Thank you for that,'s all got a bit confusing, Katie. And then the...

Yeah, thank you for that, because I was a bit confused. But I was nodding. I was nodding. And then, as Frank said, there's a sort of pushback, a kind of coup in Venezuela where they say, no, we're not having it. We're not having the French. I can see that, though. I'm half French French so careful what you say here Katie well I mean I just they had to learn a new language it's just it's too much yeah

it's fair enough it's fair enough but it's like this is a complicated area for Bolivar because he's vehemently anti-Spanish but now suddenly he has to be anti-French there's a slight confusion there Frank yeah I would say even more so that I. One of the main reasons why the Caracas elite is anti-French is Catholicism, which Bolivar's not a big fan of. So they want to keep their Catholicism. They see the French as overwhelmingly atheists, which is what Bolivar is. So he kind of needs to align with his enemies and the ideology that he wouldn't necessarily support. Okay, so the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

That kind of thing. He's now going to use his money politically for the first time. He's going to go to London. Basically, he offers to pay for the Venezuelan mission to go to London, as long as he gets the tag along and become a diplomat. And he shows up and he is told before he goes, there is a revolutionary Venezuelan exile called Francisco de Miranda who you cannot talk to you cannot meet him you cannot

talk to him you cannot write him a letter you must not have any contact with him so what does he do when he gets to London Katie he contacts him he does what I like that. Rule breaker. You're warming to him. Yes, yes. Yeah, Frank, who is Miranda and why is Simon Bolivar not meant to meet him and then decides he will meet him? In 1806, Miranda had been backed by the British to lead an anti-Spanish expedition to Caracas, which got nowhere. So he had fled back to London. And when Bolivar met him, they tried to negotiate military support from the British government, but failed. So instead, they both

returned to Venezuela to establish a Sociedad Patriótica, basically a common type of intellectual salon, supposedly focused on agriculture and livestock, but which really, as many other groups like it, became a key to promoting Enlightenment ideas and revolutionary sentiments in both the Iberian Peninsula and Spanish America. So it was essentially a pro-independence political pressure group and a highly persuasive one at that. And the group gradually gathered more and more support from the Creole elite so that on 5th July 1811, Caracas proclaimed its independence.

Wow. Proper success. So Caracas as a city proclaimed its independence. They declared the independence of the province of Venezuela, but really the support is in Caracas. Sure. The power base is the city. Okay. Wait, how long is he in? We don't even talk about his trip to London. How was it? What did he say? How long was he here for?

Yeah, I think it's just a few months, basically, because when he arrived here, and his main aim is to get political and financial support from Britain to launch an independence campaign in Venezuela. And he doesn't get support because by this point, Britain has become an ally of the Spanish resistance against the French. interest in backing rebellious Venezuelans, which they would have loved to do before 1808. But since the alliance against France, they're no longer interested. Okay, so his trip to London doesn't really work, but actually doesn't need it because he gets back to Venezuela and the pressure group has managed to essentially declare independence. So you might be thinking, hooray, great. But it doesn't really last very long, Frank, does it? No, not quite.

So Venezuela's first republican constitution split society into two classes. On the one hand, you had the property-owning voters, and then you had everybody else. Racial segregation and slavery also remained as part of this first Venezuelan republic, although the slave trade was technically abolished. So in response to this segregation, the Pardos and black population rose up against the Creole elite. And then on 26 March 1812, as people gathered in the churches for Monday to Thursday, a massive earthquake hit Venezuela. The clergy proclaimed that this was God's way of punishing Venezuelan society for the revolution. And the proclamation was actually strengthened when a second earthquake struck the city on the 4th of April.

So in the aftermath of these earthquakes, the republic itself collapsed with Miranda surrendering to the pro-Spanish forces and Bolívar fleeing to Cartagena de Indias in what is now Colombia, but was at the time the kingdom of New Granada. And here he spent his time writing a manifesto addressed to the government of New Granada, explaining all the reasons why he thought

the revolution in Venezuela had failed. So Miranda's being captured. In fact, Bolivar turns his back on Miranda. They've fallen out by this point. And Miranda gets taken back to Spain and dies in prison in Spain. So he's turned on his friend. And then he's run away. And he's written his sort of manifesto for why the revolution has failed. It's called the Cartagena Manifesto of 1812. His four reasons are religious fanaticism, popular elections, federalism and factional fighting and financial mismanagement. Popular elections feels like, I feel like that shouldn't

be a bad thing. Those are the four things he blames, Katie. What did he think caused the earthquake? Was it not God? He's an atheist, I guess. Two earthquakes in a row? I feel like if I was an atheist and there was two earthquakes in a row, I would have to, I'd go back to the Pope. Be like, sorry, I was rude before. Maybe you're

right. I guess he's not convinced by the divine vengeance angle. He says financial mismanagement, federalism, popular elections, religious fanaticism. So he's still hung up on the religion thing. And he's writing this in Cartagena? Yeah. Presumably on the beach. Presumably on the beach with a couple of beautiful ladies nearby. He's probably fine. He's probably drunk. He's got a mojito. Yeah. He has not abandoned his principles

or at least not abandoned his vow that he made in Rome. In May 1813, he recruited several hundred soldiers. He returned to Venezuela, Katie. He tries again. And this time, Frank, I mean, I'm going to call him more hard-headed, but that's a polite way of saying violence is now part of his weaponry, right? Yeah, you're absolutely right. So Bolivar advanced quite quickly through his homeland, first taking Merida, Trujillo, Barquisimeto, and Valencia in short succession. And in fact, it's this quick series of victories that earned him the nickname of the liberator, a name which followed him until, or follows him until today. But the war at this stage was absolutely brutal, with atrocities carried out by both sides. Bolívar himself instigated a new policy against the Spanish, what he called

the war to the death. So anybody who had been born in Spain would be killed unless they actively supported and contributed to the fight for independence. That's not centrist, is it, Katie? That's a bit mean, that. Yeah, yes. Wow. Yeah. So he's killing any spanish citizen who's not wearing a pro independence t-shirt he's taking it pretty far i think he's still he's still sad about his parents i think he's he's slashing out he's he's gone full batman he's he's embraced the darkness yeah yeah this is wow i like that rebranding of the Liberator, a.k.a. Batman. He has to fight his way back into Caracas. And when he arrives, Frank, is he beloved or is he feared?

Because he's killing people on the way to get there. So when he arrives, is he hailed as the great Liberator? Well, he kind of is, actually. The military campaign only lasts for about three months. And on the 6th of August of 1813, he rides into Caracas bathed in glory. In fact, he was greeted by a group of young women, all dressed in white, who crowned him with laurels and gave him flowers as he's dismounting from his horse. And amongst these women in Caracas was one called Josefina Machado, also known as Pepita, who at the ball given in Bolivar's honor that afternoon became his mistress and would be so for the next four or five years.

Katie, you were shaking your head for much of that. Women, we just love a hero. My God. Wow, that's just all these women. That must have just, I can't imagine his ego. This is why he became a dictator, because of these women. All these ladies in white greeting him with laurels and flowers. So he's a lover and a fighter, Katie. He can do it all.

That's what they all say, I feel like. I just, wow. And he was only 5'6". Can you imagine? They must have, he was on a horse, I imagine, maybe. He was on a horse. Yeah, so they're like. I'm going to stand up for short men here. I'm only 5'9". You know, we've got other things to offer.

You know, it's not just height. Yes, the horse. I don't have a horse. And the plantation, the cacao. So Bolivar, yes, he's have a horse. And the plantation, the cacao. So Bolivar, yes, he's taking a lover. But he's not going to marry her, of course, because of his vow. And where's Josefina from?

She's from Caracas? Yeah. See, I'd like to know more about her and see how was she the lucky one in white, you know? Sure, sure. How did she get picked out of all the girls? And it's at this point. This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull apart only at Wendy's.

It's ooey gooey and just five bucks with a small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. When he becomes a dictator, Simon Bolivar, he's dodged the Napoleon thing of going emperor, and he's gone full Julius Caesar. He's dictator. It's an interesting title, dictator, because we tend to use it now in a very pejorative way. But it is a political position of sorts. It's a particular philosophy. What is his justification, Bolivar, for saying, right, I'm the new boss, but I'm not a king. I'm not an emperor. I'm something else.

So Bolivar, at this point, kind of envisages Venezuela or starts to envisage Venezuela as part of a larger country, which would also incorporate New Granada. And this is the beginning of what he would later on call the Gran Colombia, an independent, unified South American state, which would all have independent militaries, but which in Bolivar's view should have a unified central government. So on the 2nd of January 1814, a representative assembly gathered in Caracas and granted him supreme power with the title of dictator in the tradition of classical antiquity. So this was technically an emergency office, right? It was given to somebody when there was a big crisis that needed solving. And in Bolivar's view, that was what was happening.

He intended to centralize power to safeguard and extend the revolution, but it wasn't meant to be a permanent thing. At that time, he also wrote that wholly representative institutions were not suited to the character, customs and present knowledge of the people of Venezuela. So he wanted to concentrate power in himself until people learned how to be free. You can't be trusted to have a political system. I'll do it. It's slightly cynical. Hmm. I'm wondering about this guy. It's a bit conflicting because I feel like he's done some good things. And then now this this gets a tricky situation in the story. I'm so conflicted

on how to view him. So the Gran Colombia, he wants a unified South America, but each region having its own army is quite surprising to me. It had a lot also to do with the vast expanse of northern South America and the time it would take to send commands from one place to another. So what he really wanted was a centralised government that could deal with foreign challenges and which could, if needed, coordinate local governments. But at the same time, he wanted armies that could respond more quickly to challenges than having to wait for an order to come from Bogota to Cumaná or wherever, which would have probably taken weeks and weeks to arrive. I think that sounds smart.

I think I might be one of those girls in white now. I might get some flowers. Get the laurel crown. You're back on board. Yeah, this is innovative stuff going on over here. It feels like a Roman model to me. It feels like you have an emperor and then you've got governors out in the provinces who've got their own decision-making and their own armies to sort of, yeah, okay, okay, all right. Maybe I'll get a white dress and some laurel. I don't know.

I might not be his type. He's a dictator. He's established himself. He's got this big grand vision. Is it going to hold? Does it last? Well, sadly, no. Within about a month, he has to execute 800 rebels in Caracas. And this pretty much triggers a counter-revolution, led by José Tomás Bóvez, a violent white pro-Spanish royalist. Bóvez actually promised his Black and Pardo followers that they would get white Creole property if they ousted Bolívar. So by August, it's clear that Bóvez was unstoppable. And on the 26th, Bolívar. So by August, it's clear that Bobes was unstoppable. And on the 26th, Bolívar sailed to the island of Margarita, taking with him silver and jewels from the churches of Caracas in an attempt to raise capital for what would be a counterattack. While he's in Margarita, however,

Bolívar is declared an outlaw and he's forced to flee again, this time going to Jamaica in May 1815. Meanwhile, in Spain, King Ferdinand VII has been returned to power and in February 1815, he dispatched an army to re-establish his South American colonies. These expeditions were mostly successful and so by October 1816, the Spanish have basically reconquered Venezuela entirely. Whoa, we had independence for about one month and then a civil war. And now suddenly the Spanish are back. They come back in such a short amount of time. He's about 32 by this point.

So he's no longer the young, young guy. He's now in his 30s. That's a very busy 18 months i feel so under a complex what have you have you not looted a church katie i once took a bible by accident okay all right you brought it back that's fine i'm sorry sorry it's gonna be an earthquake now yeah exactly oh no he's struck down by lightning so we're halfway through the podcast already we've had one revolution failed. The second one fails when the Spanish show up again.

The empire strikes back. So we're now on to the threequel, Third Time Lucky. He's going to try again, again. But this story nearly begins in disaster because an assassin comes to kill him, Katie. And he escapes with his life. Do you know how he escapes? He's getting more attractive. I'm so sorry.

Wow, this is becoming... I'm reframing this as a novella. How does he escape? Now, I did try to watch some of the series Bolivar, but I've also started rewatching Doctor Who and it's all kind of mixing together. And I'd like to say he went in the TARDIS, but I don't think... I think I'm mixing the two.

The crossover we've all needed. Doctor Who meets Simon Bolivar. No, he doesn't escape in a TARDIS. He gets lucky. Basically, the assassin kills the wrong guy. The assassin kills his friend. His friend Felix is sleeping in his hammock, and so the assassin comes and

murders who he thinks is Bolivar but it's actually Felix. Oh, poor Felix. Poor Felix. That's a lucky escape for Bolivar. Does that count as an escape? I mean, you tell me. I wanted it to be like, through a trap door,

escaped in something and it's like, oh, it's just somebody else was killed. I feel like that's not... I feel like action movies have ruined this for you. Your standards are very high. Did Bolivar just get to the hammock and was like, oops? I think pretty much. Bolivar now hits upon a new strategy.

He's going to liberate New Granada first. And that involves attacking over the Andes Mountains. That sounds hard, Frank. How do you go over the mountains to attack? So between 1817 and 1819, Bolivar gradually made military progress in eastern and southern Venezuela. But he's entirely unable to break the Spanish occupation of the center north of the province. So he makes a plan to lure the Spanish out by taking New Granada first. And this would involve taking all his army up the Andes to catch them by surprise. So he set out with an army of about

2,100 men on 27th May 1819. But unfortunately unfortunately they hit the rainy season. So for weeks, his men marched through the Amazon rainforest in waist-deep water. After this, then they faced the mountain of Andes in freezing rain. Many suffered from altitude sickness, men and animals died en route, several British volunteer soldiers had joined the expedition and in fact, one of the British wives even gave birth while they were marching. Then the surviving soldiers met and defeated the Royalist forces in battle on the 25th of July at Pantano de Vargas, already in New Granada. Then victorious Bolivar then intercepted and overwhelmed a retreating enemy at the infamous Battle of Boyacá on the banks of the Boyacá River on the 7th of August, 1819. On the 10th, Bolivar rode into Bogotá to cheering crowds where once again, the young women dressed in white presented him with a crown of laurels.

Crown of what? Laurels. Laurels. Oh, I thought I heard something else. What did you hear? And I was like, how did that happen? Crown of orals. And I was like, whoa. Oh, no.

How is that crowned? Wow. Wow. God, this guy is crazy. Okay, so when I said he went over the Andes, I clearly left out waded through the Amazon River first. That's hardcore, Katie. So New Granada, we're talking Peru, Bolivia, Colombia, and where else?

Madrundi, Colombia, basically. Oh, okay. Northern part of South America, but west of Venezuela. So he's gone up over and through the river and over the mountains and ambushed the enemy. That's impressive. Altitude sickness alone will get you i went to machu picchu and my friend didn't take the medicine and he barely did it really it's it's it's pretty steep yeah we've pretty well he he also had food poisoning, but that's his fault, really. But wow, so then 2,000 people. Yeah, 2,100, yeah.

How many people survived this? Yeah, so actually at some point he meets with Sucre, who's his right-hand man, who has another, I think, 1,900 men or thereabouts. So the actual army that crosses the Andes starts at about 4,000 men, and I think it ends around 2,500 or thereabouts. Whoa, okay. Well, that's big losses. There are big losses, yes. And what are they eating on this trip? I'm just out of curiosity. They bring with them some stores, because there's not a lot that you can just pluck out of the Andes and eat.

And also, I think the majority of the people in the expedition are actually from the Venezuelan lowlands. So they're not at all used to the weather, the altitude, the cold of the Andes. They would have felt more at home wading through the Amazon forest than going up the mountains. You're really packing for two very different holidays there, aren't you? Exactly. It feels like coming to the UK. Oh my God. So he has this great success, the Battle of Boyacá, which is his great win,

and returns to Venezuela, Frank, and holds a congress. And Bolivar is trying to assert himself now. So what does this now mean? Has he established his Gran Colombia? Yes, exactly. So at Angostura in Venezuela, he held a congress which on the 17th of December 1819 announced the creation of the Republic of Gran Colombia, which would include Venezuela, Nugrenada,

and Quito, what is now Ecuador, which hadn't been liberated yet, but which would soon be freed by Bolívar and his general Sucre. Bolívar was named president of Gran Colombia with Francisco de Paula Santander made the vice president. So Bolívar then strove to end royalist rule in Venezuela once and for all. And at the Battle of Carabobo on the 24th of June 1829, he led his forces to a bloody victory. He then re-entered Caracas on the 29th of June 1821 after an absence of about seven years. And in the following months, the last pockets of royalist resistance were defeated

and Venezuela was at last independent. And who greeted him on the way in, Katie? Women in white. Women in white. Absolutely. Bolivar's life is enormous, even his military campaigns. But Frank, we have now Peru next on his agenda. Yes. So after Quito, Bolivvar turned his attention to Peru, which was kind of already in revolt. He was named dictator of Peru in 1824 and eventually drove the Spanish out. He then set his sights on Upper Peru, what we now call Bolivia. And his second in command, General Sucre, was quickly victorious against the last remnants of Spanish rule.

And then an assembly comprised mainly of Creole elites met and declared the independence of Upper Peru on the 6th of August 1825 at Chuquisaca. The country was then renamed Bolívar, which was later changed to Bolivia. And Bolívar in turn was named changed to Bolivia. And Bolivar, in turn, was named supreme executive leader, basically dictator. And he then drafted the Bolivian Constitution of 1826, which in many ways was the apex of his political ideas. But what's the sentiment towards him? Are people like, this guy's great? Or are people like, who is this guy? So it's technically the elites of Upper Peru who named the country Bolívar after him. So, I mean, presumably they feel quite positively about him and quite thankful that he's liberated, by this point, all of South America from the Spaniards. So even though he's

called a dictator, he's not, people are happy. He's a likable dictator wow but the fact they've named the country after him is is pretty indicative we could name a country after you greenland oh no that's not gonna work katieland neither of those sound good the bolivian constitution of 1826 is where he writes his political ideas which is a really important document but it's now that he meets another beautiful woman katie can Can you believe it? Yes. Okay. No surprises. All right.

He's dumped his previous mistress. He's on to a new one. And she's called Manuela Sainz. She's young. She's beautiful. Aren't they all? But she's also clever and talented and educated and already a spy for the revolution and a courier for the revolution. She delivers secret messages. Oh, so now it's getting spicy.

We like this. There is a small catch about Manuela. Do you want to guess what the catch is? That she's 17? No, no good news. She wasn't horribly underage. She was 25, which is a perfectly good age for a beautiful mistress of a much older man.

Oh, no. I still don't like it. I don't like it. No. 25, how old was he? Maybe just sort of hovering around 40-ish. It's too much like his father. No, she's married.

She's married. Oh, she's married to a British guy. She is married to a British guy. Do you know that? Yeah. Yeah. How do you know that? That's good.

Good knowledge. Because I like gossip. Okay. This is the part of history where I'm like, ooh. Ooh. You like it when it's spicy.

This girl's cheating. Yeah. I could read this in Hello. You could read this in Hello. Well, amazingly, you might be able to read her sort of secret text that might be handed to Hello

by one of her friends because this is what she says in a letter to her husband when she dumps him. She says, do you think it lowers my honor that this general is my lover and not my husband? I do not live by social rules invented only to torment. So leave me alone, my dear Englishman. You are boring like your nation. Isn't that great? I'm going to quote her forever. Oh, my God.

I'd love to dump every British guy like that. You are boring like your nation. Yeah. What a boss. What a woman. Yeah. Oh, my God. I love that. So she got the visa and was like, bye.

Wow, good for her. You've been living in London for three and a half years, Katie. Do you want to defend Englishman's honor? Absolutely not. I am Team Manuela. Manuela, right? Yeah, Manuela, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to get a t-shirt of her face.

You are boring like your nation. Wow. It's a good line. Yeah. But didn't they stay married she dumps him whether they divorce i'm not sure but she she ditches him and just you know moves him with with simone bolivar for the rest of his life actually like so this one sticks although he's not loyal because the next thing in my script says shortly after they got together he moved on to guayaquil where he he reportedly fell for several women, all in the same family. So he's working his way through. I knew this would happen.

I didn't read this part of the book, but it's because I already know the story. You sensed it. Yeah, you could see it was coming. I sensed it from him. So there we go. Simon Bolivar, always with the conquests. So we should probably get back to politics, Frank. We mentioned the Bolivian Constitution of 1826, I think it was, distilling his political ideas. So what is in this life and who chooses his own successor. So it institutes an element of authoritarian control at the very top. This was quite controversial at the time, but Bolívar felt ultimately that control was necessary in order to safeguard the hard-won independence and to maintain peace. The constitution did also have a number of liberal elements in it. Equality was

enshrined, slavery was outlawed, civil rights were protected. By 1826 Bolivar had liberated, I'm putting those in inverted commas, six countries or at least six modern countries as we know them. To do that he had ridden 75,000 miles in the saddle which is probably explains why he had terrible hemorrhoids Katie and probably an STD but who knows yes he might well be having problems front and back and it's not just his backside that's giving him trouble Frank because the Gran Colombia dream that he has put together this sort of united federalized South America as soon as he puts it in place it's starting to wobble there is instability instability. There soon is growing resentment. You know, Katie asked, were people happy? Quite soon, there was tension, wasn't there, Frank?

Yeah, so I think the first ones to start to dislike Bolivar a lot were the Peruvians, who saw his government and the presence of Colombian forces in the country as an occupation, of Colombian forces in the country as an occupation, and particularly so after they are forced to adopt the Bolivian Constitution of 1826, which made Bolívar president for life. More or less at the same time, in Venezuela, the caudillo José Antonio Páez revolted in April 1826, until Bolívar's return kind of quelled him.

Much of this increasing tension stemmed from Bolivar's believing that all Americans should be bound together by their continental supranational identity, which however, many of the individual countries didn't like. He's saying, look, it needs to be a big block. And actually, the individual countries are saying, no, no, we want to be countries. And political dissent quite quickly turned to murderous intent. Katie, assassination attempt number two. Here we come. Oh, no. What friend was in the hammock? Well, no, no, no friends are killed this time. A lot of guards are killed. A lot of dogs are killed. Not the dogs. A large gang of men break into his palace in the dead of night to come and murder him. But Manuela saves his life. She hears them coming. She grabs a sword. She jumps the door. night to come and murder him. But Manuela saves his life. She hears them

coming. She grabs a sword. She jumps the door. She tells him to get out. He wants to stand and fight and be the big man. She's like, don't be an idiot. Go out the window. So he does a runner and she stands to face the baddies and lives to tell the tale. So good for her, right? She's a bit of a hero. God, I love this woman. We should have talked about her life. This a bit of a hero god i love this woman i this we should have talked about her life this is just what a hero yeah yeah wow and so he escapes he does he escapes uh they find him shivering under a bridge sort of very very cold in his pajamas i guess humiliated but alive so bolivar has dodged another early death but his utopia of Gran Colombia is doomed really.

On the 6th of May 1830 Venezuela officially became an independent republic and then the following week Ecuador left as well. He loses two countries in a week which is a bad week.

And then a few months later December 1830 the so-called Liberator President died of tuberculosis. He was only 47. Bit of an anti-climax at the end of the life there, Katie? What do you feel?

Yeah, I feel like it would have been better if he was assassinated. That would have been a better story. Tuberculosis getting you. Yeah, it's not. But he got his parents as well, didn't it? Yeah, so it's... Oh, runs in the family. It's a horrible disease.

But yes, you're right. Only 47. So the liberator president in 1830 is when he died. Yeah. That's the end of Simon Bolivar. The Nuance Window. And it's time now for the Nuance Window. This is where Katie and I put on our long white dresses and throw flowers.

We give two minutes to Dr. Frank to tell us something we need to know about Simon Bolivar. You have two minutes. Take it away, please. So Bolivar is perhaps the most famous Latin American person who has ever lived. Certainly if you judge by the number of books written about him and probably also by the number of very different looking portraits painted of him. Although he died bitterly disappointed in his compatriots and on his own achievements, he famously wrote in his deadbed that he who serves a revolution plows the sea. He remains to this day an enormously influential political symbol.

Traveling through Colombia or Venezuela, everywhere one comes across commemorative plaques indicating when and how many times Bolívar visited this or that town. And most significantly, Bolívar continues to be a symbol claimed by multiple political projects. Perhaps most notably, between 1998 and 2013, Hugo Chávez constantly used Bolívar's image and discourse to legitimize his government in Venezuela.

Chávez famously changed the country's name to Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, used to leave an empty seat in all government meetings for Bolívar, and famously had the general's remains used to produce a reconstruction of Bolívar's face which made the liberator look suspiciously similar to Chávez himself. However, there was actually not a lot in common between Bolívar's background, plans, and ideology and those of Chávez. Perhaps most obviously, the leader was an ardent defendant of direct democracy. Whereas, as we've seen, Bolívar believed that the people of South America were not ready to exercise political power, generally mistrusted elections, and preferred a restricted suffrage.

Still, they were perhaps a bit closer to each other in that both Bolívar and Chávez perceived regional supranational integration to be an effective strategy for resisting foreign imperialism, and in that both saw government led by a strong man as a way of solving some of their nation's problems, at least in the short run. Nonetheless, Chávez's extensive and often quite successful mobilization of Bolívar to garner support and legitimacy shows how terribly relevant the mythical figure of the Libertador remains in South America today. So what do you know now?

But it's time now for the quiz. This is the So What Do You Know Now? It is our quickfire quiz for Katie to see how much she has remembered and learned. Katie, are you feeling confident? No. Okay, well, thank you for your honesty. I took notes, but they're not that great. I wrote down chocolate man. That's about it. Okay, question one.

In 1783, Simon Bolivar was born in which country? Venezuela. It is Venezuela. There we go. We're off. Question one. In 1783, Simon Bolivar was born in which country? Venezuela. It is Venezuela. There we go. We're off. Question two. What happened to Simon Bolivar's young wife he met in Madrid? She died of yellow fever. It was yellow fever. Very well done. That's really well remembered. Maria Teresa was her name. Wasn't vaccinated.

Question three. While visiting Rome in 1805, what vow did Bolivar allegedly make, having dissed the Pope? That's when he vowed to liberate South America. Absolutely. Question four. In 1808, who invaded the Iberian Peninsula and booted out the Spanish royal family, thus galvanising Venezuelan elites against their new foreign ruler? The French. Napoleon. It was new foreign ruler. The French. Napoleon. It was.

Well done. Question five. How did Bolivar get himself on the Venezuelan diplomatic delegation to London in 1810? By boat? By ship? I was like, this is too easy of a question. How did he end up convincing them to let him go?

Do you remember? Oh, hold on. Silver? No. Yeah, he end up convincing them to let him go? Do you remember? Oh, hold on. Silver? No. Yeah, yeah, he paid for it. Yeah, he bankrolled it himself. He's like, I'll pay for it if you let me go. Question six. Can you name three of the six modern nations that gained independence from Spanish rule under Bolivar?

Venezuela. Yep. Peru. Yep. Colombia. Yep, that's three. You could have Bolivia, Panama and Ecuador as well. Question seven.

What was Bolivar's inspirational nickname that he got while young? The Liberator. It was. Question eight. When Bolivar rode into cities as a liberator, who always greeted him and what were they holding? Women in white holding flowers. Yes, and a laurel crown.

That's right. Question nine. Why did Simon Bolivar's mistress, Manuela Sainz, choose him over her husband? What was her famous line? He was boring. The British are boring. This for a perfect 10 out of 10, Katie. What document

did Bolivar write in 1826 which distilled his political thinking? Oh, no. Is this the manifesto? Not the manifesto. This is not the one of Cartagena. No, that's well remembered. This is a different one.

Oh, no. I do remember slightly zoning out in this specific. I remember. Okay, he... What country is named after him? Bolivia. Yeah. So what's the document called country is named after him? Bolivia. Yeah. So what's the document called?

The very good document from Bolivia. No. Begins with C. Constitution. Yay! Oh, my God! Okay, so all together now. A constitution of Bolivia?

No. Yes, the Bolivian Constitution of 1826. Katie Green, 10 out of 10. Oh my god, no help at all. That's insane. Well, thank you so much, Katie. Well done, 10 out of 10. And thank you so much, Dr. Frank, for sharing all your knowledge with us. And listener, if after today's episode, you want to hear more about the Spanish Empire and the Americas, you can check out our episode on the Columbian Exchange. For more revolutionary events in Bolivar's life, we have done our episode on young Napoleon,

and we also did one on the Haitian Revolution. And remember, if you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to Your Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But all that's left for me to do is say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We have the amazing Dr. Frank Ezebaroso from the University of Manchester. Thank you, Frank. Thanks, Greg. Pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we from the University of Manchester. Thank you, Frank. Thanks, Greg. Pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, we had the fantastic Katie Green. Thank you, Katie.

Thank you. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we liberate yet another historical subject from obscurity. But for now, I must go and unify all the other BBC Gregs into one giant BBC Greg, starting with Radio 1's Greg James. He'll never suspect it if I come over the Andes. Bye! This episode of You're Dead to Me was researched by Roxy Moore. It was written by Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Emma Neguse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey

and our production coordinator was Caitlin Hobbs. The producers were Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow and me. The senior producer was Emma Neguse and the executive editor was Chris Ledgerd. Hello, Russell Cain here. I used to love British history, be proud of it. Henry VIII, Queen Victoria, massive fan of stand-up comedians, obviously Bill Hicks, Richard Pryor.

That has become much more challenging, for I am the host of BBC Radio 4's Evil Genius, the show where we take heroes and villains from history and try to work out were they evil or genius. Do not catch up on BBC Sounds by searching Evil Genius if you don't want to see your heroes destroyed. But if, like me, you quite enjoy it, have a little search. Listen to Evil Genius

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