You're Dead to Me - The History of Bollywood (Radio Edit)

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

In this episode, Greg Jenner is joined by Professor Sunny Singh and broadcaster Poppy Jay to learn all about the history of Indian cinema, colloquially known as Bollywood. Filmmaking technology arrived in India in 1896, only six months after the Lumiere brothers debuted their invention in Paris. Nowadays, over 700 films are released in India every year, and it is the most popular cinema in the world, reaching over a billion more viewers a year than Hollywood. From the first Indian film in 1913, through the arrival of 'talkies' and colour in the 1930s, to its incredible success today, this episode explores the vibrant history of Bollywood, and the way it has reflected and shaped modern Indian society and politics.This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.Research by: Madeleine Bracey Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Caitlin Hobbs Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. Every sport has their big, juicy controversy. Boxing has the Mike Tyson ear bite. Cycling has Lance Armstrong. Baseball has its steroid era. Curling has... Broomgate.

It's a story of broken relationships, houses divided, corporate rivalry, and a performance enhancing broom. It was a year I'd like to forget. Broomgate, available now. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner.

I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are buying our tickets, popping our popcorn and settling into our cinema seats to learn all about the history of Bollywood. And to help us we have two very special guest stars. In History Corner, she's an academic and the author of both non-fiction and fiction books including the novel Hotel Arcadia. She's professor of creative writing and inclusion in the arts at London Metropolitan University in London. And lucky for us she's also got a fantastic new book out all about Indian cinema. It's called A Bollywood State of Mind and our guest is Professor Sunny Singh. Welcome Sunny. Hello, good to be here and thank you for having me.

My pleasure. And in Comedy Corner, she's a broadcaster, BAFTA nominated documentary director, an award-winning podcaster. You might have seen one of her TV documentaries, including Rescuing Ex-Muslims and Queens of, or listen to her BBC Asian Network show, Group Chat, and you'll definitely know her from co-hosting the fantastic and funny Brown Girls Do It Too, it's about love and sex and dating and heartbreak and friendship and all the good stuff. So who is it? It's none other than Poppy Jay! Welcome to the show, Poppy! I've got a steel-up bio. What an intro, my god. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Poppy, first time on the show. Yeah. do you like history? Is this out of your comfort zone?

I love history. Half you. And one of my biggest regrets is I wish I'd done history at A-level and I wish I'd picked history as my degree because the one thing that put me off is I learned so much about the Second World War and I wanted to know more about the empire and colonialism and I was far more interested in the American Civil War. So that put me off because I thought it's going to be another two years of Winston Churchill chatting breeze. So I was like, allow that.

So that was my biggest regret. So I'm so happy to be in this room and I'm going to be learning and listening and probably being a bit of a clown. And hopefully this isn't no brainer. Are you familiar with Bollywood? Of course I am. Nineties Bollywood, though, Professor Sonny Singh. Nineties Bollywood is the best Bollywood. I course I am. 90s Bollywood though, Professor Sunny Singh. 90s Bollywood is the best Bollywood. I'm just putting it out there.

Everyone has their favourite. Everyone has their favourite. What would be your classic 90s Bollywood movie that you would use to introduce someone to the genre? Oh God, that is such a good question. And unfortunately for me, I don't know the names of any of them. The titles are so long. Probably Kabhi Kushi Kabhi Kum is a bit of a classic, isn't it? Yeah, Kabhi Kushi Kabhi Kum is a classic. What's the one with the Mehendi Laga Ke Rekhna? That's my old title. DDLJ. Okay. Basically, you come over to our summer party, you get DD, it'll be like a Lord of the Rings trilogy, like DDLJ, Kabhi Kushi Kabhi Kum and then a third one. Kuch Kuch Hota Hai. Kuch Kuch

Hota Hai. That's about a week and a half of your life. So what do you know? Well that brings us to the first section of the podcast, the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Bollywood is the world's most popularly watched cinema. It is the biggest film industry on the planet. Yeah, I think it's fair to say Indian films are not as well known in Europe or North America.

Film buffs may know the work of mid-century director Satyajit Ray, I think is often critically hailed, but there's not a huge amount of name recognition on some of the other great filmmakers and actors. Although in 2022, the Bollywood spectacular RRR made a global smash. It won an Oscar, Golden Globe, two Critic Choice Awards. It went viral on Twitter because it's incredible stunt. But what about the historical origins of Bollywood? Let's find out. Okay, so why is it called Bollywood?

And is that a useful title for this episode? I think we need a bit more nuanced thinking. So it's a useful term for this episode because it's a kind of catch-all name that is also really familiar in the West. But it is a name that is given derisively and it implies that Indian cinema is a kind of knockoff cheap version of American cinema. So Indian cinema is a useful umbrella term, but India makes movies in 17 languages. Wow.

And so what we call Bollywood is Bombay cinema because that's where the films are made. Sometimes we also use masala movies. It means spices and applies to all kinds of films that are suitable for every kind of occasion. So the three films we mentioned earlier, those kind of work. I've never heard of masala movies. I'm going to use that now. It's great. And we're talking about a 20th century art form,

cinema 1896, that is the invention of the camera, but it's a 20th century art form. Sunny, you want to start the subject in the second century BCE, 2,200 years ago. What? Hang on. Yeah, because we've been doing this stuff for a while. So to really understand these films, we have to actually start with the history of theater in India and the principles and theories of performance and drama. And these are laid out in something called the Natya Shastra, and that's a Sanskrit text. And it's written in verse, and it's from second century BCE. And it has 6,000 verses which explain the principles of every aspect of theatre, performance,

production. And it's been the text that is sort of the foundation for all performance and art and thinking about all of these in India for that long. That's amazing. Have you heard of the Natya Shastra before? Absolutely not. Not until five seconds ago. How do you say it? Nathishashtra. Nathishashtra. Six thousand verses in it. It's not a sort of brief little pamphlet. No, it's definitely when you compare it to poetics, which is what? 36 pages. The Indians, they love a manuscript, don't they? You've got the Kama Sutra, you've got the Nathishashtra. We like putting stuff down. And then we like arguing about it.

What are the key elements? Let me start with some of the concept of Rasa, actually, which is really important. And it translates roughly to juicer essence. And Rasa is the cumulative result of all elements of performance. So, stage, light, actors, acting, costume, everything. But it's combined with the audience's reaction to it. It's useful to know that there are four positive russes and four negative russes. So the four positive ones are Sringar, which is love, Hastya, which is humor, Vir, which is heroism and courage, Adhput, that is wonder. And the four negative ones, Karuna, which is sorrow,

Rodra, which is wrath, Bhayanak, which is terror, and Bipatsa, which is disgust. The masala movie or the masala performance will balance each of these out. And this is also why not just Bollywood, but many Indian films don't neatly fit into the Western genre categorisation. We're going to zoom forward now from ancient India to the 19th century and we've got plays happening and this is an interesting period in history because obviously this is during the British Raj or the British control of South Asia. So what sort of plays are happening? Who's in them? What are they about? So what's really interesting is about mid 1919th century, there's the rise of what we can call

modern theatre. And this is because student communities in places like Bombay are creating their own productions. And these often use Western theatrical forms, which are actually have been brought in by the British population in India. Hello. Because they're missing it, right? Have some Shakespeare. It's very good, you'll like it. At this point, Western plays, for example Shakespeare, are huge, but you wouldn't recognize them as Shakespeare because they're translated and they're rewritten to have much

more relevance and appeal to the local audience. It's still kind of Shakespeare, but it's not recognized. It's Brown Shakespeare. We're Browned it up.. We've browned it up. Yeah, we browned it up. The Smodan Theatre also pulls together scripts and ideas and stories from Persian and Sanskrit theatre. A lot of it is financed by Parsi entrepreneurs. These are a very small minority in India. They're descendants of Persian immigrants who practice Zoroastrianism. And in general, it becomes known as Parsi theatre.

And this is the forerunner of Indian cinema. It's performed by actors of many religious, linguistic, ethnic backgrounds, but is aimed actually at a largely Hindu audience. And I think that's really the interesting part because that's the root of Bombay cinema. So in 1895, Poppy, along comes France's famous Lumiere brothers and they invent the camera, the film camera and projection technology. So that's the birth of cinema, 1895. How quickly do you think it ends up in India from Paris? I'm going to hazard a guess and say 20, no 1924 from 1895. So you think you think like 30 years?

Yeah. Six months. Wow, that's a terrible guess. That is quick. I mean, the moment they invent the camera, they pop it on a ship and off it goes. So it's in Mumbai in 1896. So initially these are short films. These are really, really short.

These are really kind of quick, one real little, you know, mini micro silent dramas. Kind of what you see on TikTok these days. Yeah, yeah. Like silent TikToks. You know when you've got your phone on mute and you're just looking at the captions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just got the captions. Just the captions. You're in the toilet and you're like, hey, what's up? The first feature film, 1913 in India. That's really early.

It is. And I think filmmaking just zooms through the land in such fast ways people are immediately loved watching this marvelous new thing. The first feature-length silent film is Raja Harishchandra. It begins development in 1911 and it's released in 1913. Wow, it takes two years to make the first film and that's impressive, right? You have to learn how to make it. But it's directed by Dada Sabfalke, who was a photographer, and it's actually based on a very popular play from 1875. And Falke had actually travelled to Britain to learn filmmaking and had imported equipment from Europe in order to make the film. That's why it took two years. Sir Poppy, Falke spent time in London learning filmmaking, a modern filmmaking degree, usually

three years, give or take. How long do you think he had to learn filmmaking in London? Before he made this film that took two years? Yeah. Well, if it took six months to get the camera from, shipped from Paris to India, I want to say something ridiculous, like a day, not a day, obviously. I don't know, a month? Two weeks. Okay, there you go. Good instincts.

So Falke, he's learned some techniques in London. He returns home, he invents the feature film in the South Asian market. It's called Arrasha Harish Chandra, is that right? Yeah. And there is a sort of back and forth between theatre and film. It's not like a new art form has been invented. Film and everyone goes, right, that's it, ditch the theatre, we don't need it anymore. There is a sort of constant dialogue that they're informing each other. Yes. So many directors, writers, actors begin to work in film. And some of them actually

still continue to work in theatre as well. Interestingly, as Parsley Theatre, you would use a mixture of languages. Filmmakers also continued this approach. So the intertitles and silent films would be in multiple languages, as would be dialogue once sound was introduced. It's really interesting that you touch on that actually because I'm Bangladeshi and I understood Hindi from watching Bollywood films.

Okay, so you mentioned sound coming in. So in Hollywood, that's the jazz singer. It's the first sound motion picture in 1927. And I'm guessing the Indian cinema, given that it took six months for the camera to show up, presumably they're sort of straight on it. Yeah, well, have that please. Thank you very much. So how quick are we talking? We're talking really quickly. The first Indian film with sound was Alamara. It means light of the world and it comes out in 1931. The introduction of sound also means Alamara. It means light of the world and it comes out in 1931. The introduction of sound also means Alamara included songs. It had seven songs immediately.

Oh, we love a number. We love a number, don't we? Okay, now we're talking. Now we're singing, rather. Can you imagine a Bollywood film without song and dance? Because it's so intrinsic, isn't it? Are there any Bollywood films without any song and dance numbers? I'm sure there must be, I don't know. In the last 120 years I have I think identified about 10. Experimental. They're very experimental. To be fair, they are the art house cinema, but commercial cinema, I don't think they really do that. And there's so many different types of song, there's so many genres.

I know producer Emi and her mum, Namrita, are suckers for a big romantic number, sung on top of the Swiss mountains, which apparently is a sort of real thing in Bollywood now. We've identified really that there's no such thing, well, you said there are 10 movies without music. So my favorite movie is Singing in the Rain, which is a musical, an MGM musical, but there's no such thing, well, you said there are 10 movies without music. So my favorite movie is Singing in the Rain, which is a musical, an MGM musical, but there's no such thing as a musical in Bollywood. It is. It just is. It just is, yeah.

And song and dance are essential. Films can't even, I think, operate effectively without them in many cases. Sometimes up to 25% of a film budget can depend on the sale of the music rights. Plus, also going back to the Nazi Shastra, song and dances serve specific narrative, visual, emotional purposes within the film. And they provide levity and emotional relief for the audience. There's a film from 1932 called Indra Sabha, which translates to The Court of the Gods. Poppy, how many songs were in it, do you given that the first Bollywood with songs had seven songs how many by 1932 are in this film? I'm gonna double and say 14. It's a very

sensible guess. 71 songs. So we're into the 30s now we're talking about sound technology but also there's another technology comes in in the 30s it's colour and that's a collaboration with German filmmakers. So yeah, I think that's a really interwar period collaboration. It's a very fruitful relationship between Indian and German film industries. It does end with the outbreak of the Second World War because... Oh, we're back to Hitler and Churchill again. Sorry, Poppy. Sorry. For God's sake. I'm leaving.

Well, so what happens is Britain expels or inters any Germans who are operating in the Churchill again. Sorry Poppy. Sorry. For God's sake. I'm leaving. So what happens is Britain expels or inters any Germans who are operating in the British colonies. So that obviously impacts anybody who's working in Bombay and is German. But before this, German directors have been working in India. Indian filmmakers train in Berlin. Wolfram Heinies leads the first Indian cine color laboratory. However, this is a little bit more complicated because given the fact that color technology had been developed in the global north in white countries, there

was serious difficulty in rendering South Asian skin tones on screen. So you can see filmmakers struggle with this constantly. And this really gets fully resolved in the 1990s with the arrival of digital technology. Right. So that kind of racial structural biases in the technology are there. I mean, and that sort of quite handily leads us on to the British in India. Hello, me again. Poppy, how do you think British colonial authorities reacted to this growing popularity of Indian cinema?

What era are we to? Where are we? Early 1900s, sort of 1910s, 1920s. I imagine they probably didn't like it, especially if there was any descent or any kind of Indian cinema that favored sort of Indian nationalism or gave Indians a sense of their identity. I want to say because of the Brits terrible history, they probably just banned it or they didn't like it. Or if they did allow cinema, it was how fantastic the British were, helping us build railways and teaching us moral values, etc. Good instincts, Poppy. The British government not keen, pretty much as soon as there's film,

there are censors, gentlemen with mustaches saying, no, no, no, no. So can you tell us about this kind of colonial censorship and how does it apply to film? So various regulatory acts are introduced by the Imperial Legislative Council. That's a bit Star Wars stuff. In 1910, you get the Press Act, which limits the use of literature as a means of disseminating anti-colonial ideas. And of course, in 1918, the Cinematograph Act sets the age restrictions and gives the right to the government to suspend any film which was, quote, likely to cause a breach of peace. This also means that in 1937, for example, you get Dunyana Mani, The World Does Not Accept, which is actually a film

about forced marriages and criticizes it. But it also included documentary footage of the anti-colonial leader, Vallapai Patel. So the census ordered that the footage be removed. But there are clever ways around these rules, Poppy. Do you want to guess what they might be? Maybe some sort of symbolic gesture, either through the music or through traditions and values that are not familiar with the Brits, something only Indian society would understand? No, you're actually very right. So, of course, this is all happening in the context of the growing independence movement. And many films start to focus on rebellion against unjust rulers

and organized action by the people. So, the 30s also, for example, see the rise of these thrilling action movies where the heroes defeat the villains. And these are generally more palatable to the censor so you can get them passed because their political material is more as subtext. Filmmakers also use songs to try sneaking in political content. So, soundtracks and then they come up with this grand idea of having accompanying lyric booklets, which then reach more audiences and more people than films can on their own. And these are also harder to control and regulate. Will Barron It's a real privilege, isn't it, to be able to say what you want, to be able to protest,

you know, you kind of take your civil liberties for granted, don't you? So partition is done by the British state in 1947. India, as it's called, is split into two states, India and Pakistan, and you get horrific violence. Over a million people are killed. It's obviously hugely traumatic. And so how does Bollywood respond as an industry, but also in terms of the themes it's putting in its films? I think the first immediate reaction or the impact is some very, very prominent Muslims in the Indian film industry, particularly in Mumbai, leave for Pakistan at the point of partition. Equally many Hindu filmmakers who are in Lahore leave for India. The Bengali film industry, which is based around Calcutta and Dhaka, loses a vast part of its audience overnight.

The partition is also reflected in the films that are made. Very quickly, for example, a trend shows up about films that are focused on families that are separated forcibly, often by fate. And then the storyline is about how they are brought together again. That's a very, very interesting response to a huge trauma in the 40s. often by fate. And then the storyline is about how they are brought together again. That's a very, very interesting response to a huge trauma in the 40s. But by the 60s and 70s, we're talking about the Bollywood golden age, inverted commas. Is there a change away from that kind of hardcore political element and it's becoming a bit more glamorous and

glitzy? I think 60s see increased budgets. They see color films, which then become standards. But politics is still there. The wars that lead to the formation of Bangladesh, unemployment, right to divorce, even the restrictions on civil rights that are imposed during the emergency, which is 1975 to 77, are reflected by cinema. In the 70s, films also capture the anger and frustration of India's very first post-colonial generation. And that's when you see the emergence of Amitabh Bachchan as the, quote, angry young man who plays these characters who single-handedly take on corruption in economic and political systems in the country.

Interesting. Poppy, if you were going to be typecast as a type of role in a movie, what would you love to be? I probably would be the angry young woman. Annoying me. Fighting the system. Fighting the system, fighting corruption, which I'm not singling out India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, but you know, corruption is rife. Sunny, you've mentioned Amitabh Bachchan, who is, you know, a star, like a proper mega star. Celebrity is such a huge part of the Indian film industry right now. When does that start?

Very early. And that's because early film stars in India are also already often theatre stars. And I think after independence as well, you get a bigger proliferation of stars from the 50s onwards. Right. And what about the stars of the 60s and 70s, Sunny? There is Sadhana, who was huge and very popular and a major fashion icon, which is what I love about her. So she popularizes what's called the Sadhana cut, which has got a short Audrey Hepburn-like fringe. Way before Friends and Aniston happened. Way before. And she also introduces the modern, more tight-fitting versions of traditional

female fashion, especially the Shalwar Khamis, and in this case, the Churidh Khamis. And I know you've written about Amitabh Bachchan himself, you know, the angry young man who has become an absolute icon. His breakthrough movie, if you want to call it, is Zanjir, The Chain, in 1973, which features him as a young cop who is very angry and looking for his parents' murderer. And from that point, he dominates the 70s and the 80s. But what's really fascinating is in 1982, while filming a scene for the film Cooley, in which his character is a porter at a train station and is meant to die at the end. He

had a near fatal injury to his spleen and was incredibly ill for months in hospital. There was such a huge, vast public response to it with lines of well-wishers waiting outside the hospital, prayers being offered across the country and across all religions, mosques, temples, everything. There was such a huge emotional outpouring that they rewrote the movie to make sure that his character survived. We don't have the power to do that in Hollywood. I don't think that that sort of direct line that Bollywood fans have with Indian cinema in the way that they could change, you know, I'm not saying how I'm not obviously an expert, but like the fact that that could happen. the way that they could change. I'm not saying how, I'm not obviously an expert, but the fact that that could happen.

Another major, major star would be Shah Rukh Khan, who is... Heartthrob. I mean, he's King Khan, right? He's known as SRK King Khan. He's huge too. And that's a whole other sort of mega level of stardom, isn't it? So Shah Rukh Khan's first success comes in early 90s and he starts with playing the anti-hero, the slightly psychopathic, stalkery lover. But in 1995, he switches to a completely different persona, playing the good son, the father, the brother, sort of the just ruler, if you want to call it that way. He establishes in some way, I think possibly some of the biggest top-crossing films of the 1990s, 2000s. There's DDLJ we talked about earlier, 1995, Dil Toh Pagal Hai, 1997, Khus Khus

Hota Hai, Mohabbat Hai. He took a brief break around about 2017 and he's come back to the screens in 2023 with action blockbusters, Pathan and Javan. So, King Khan is Muslim, a fact that has become especially relevant with the rise of Hindu nationalist politics. He has spoken out against the growing intolerance for Muslims in India. He's been told to go to Pakistan by some BJP politicians as a result and worse. He is incredible. I mean, I knew he was of a Muslim background. I actually didn't know that he was speaking out against the BJP's very hyper-nationalistic sort of narrative. So I have even more respect for him, actually. His essay, Inside the Khanate, is extraordinary. It's very, very... The Khanate. What's the Khanate?

The Khan, the empire. Oh, the Khanate, yes. Oh, clever. So, yeah. I mean, very quickly, just to sum up, but you know, Bollywood is an enormous industry. I can't explain how big it is. What is it worth actually in terms of its billions? It's more than Hollywood, isn't it? No, I think the finance side is possibly the only place where Hollywood wins. They've got way bigger budgets. Okay.

In terms of reach, it's 3.6 billion people worldwide watch Bollywood movies. Okay, 1.4 are Indians. Come on, Sonny, give us some. That counts, right? But same reach. That's less than half the world population, which is pretty big. And yes, granted, a third of that is just Indians. Same reach as Hollywood.

I want to ask, Poppy, growing up, was Bollywood something that you had to explain to people people and now can you talk about these films with people and they know what you're talking about? When I was growing up, Bollywood as an experience of sort of Indian cinema, it was a very insular thing. You shared it with your brown friends, cousins, aunties, uncles, mum, dad. You wouldn't tell your black friends or white friends or non-Asian friends about Bollywood. But certainly in the last 10, 15 years, it needs no introduction. The Nuance Window! Well, it's time now for The Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Poppy and I act like background extras for two minutes while Professor Sonny takes centre stage to sing us something we need to know about Bollywood. Well, talk if you want, that's fine. My stopwatch is ready. You have two

minutes. So please take it away, Professor Sunny. I think two things. One, the Indian film audience is extremely sophisticated and has a very profound sense of getting their money's worth, what we call Pasa Vasool. So that means an average of 700 commercial films are made every year in India and only a few dozen are popular with the audiences and even fewer become box office hits. But I think one of the things we need to really remind ourselves about that there have been some really great blockbusters in the past year. These are very old school and in certain ways, very modern in many, technology, special effects. But they really have been claiming or reclaiming the values of Bollywood, the multiplicity of identities, the ability to get along with neighbors inside and

outside, and of course, all the different bits of politics with linguistic chauvinism, gender, class, all of these. And I think one of the best ways to think about it is Javan, which is the King Kong, Shadow Kong movie. Great stars, huge number of brilliant action sequences, lots of great music. And it's also explicitly political. It has a long straight-to- camera monologue by its main star, the King Kong himself, about the need for holding elected leaders to account. Thank you, Sunny. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the sensational Professor Sunny Singh from London Metropolitan University. Thank you, Sunny.

Thank you. It was great fun. It was great fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the fantastic Poppy Jay. Thank you, Poppy. Thank you. It was great fun. It was great fun. And in Comedy Corner we had the fantastic Poppy J. Thank you Poppy. Thank you so much for having me. And to you lovely listener, join me next time as we load another historical epic into our Your Dead to Me film projector. But for now I'm off to the Swiss Alps to serenade my lover with 71 songs. They're all going to sound quite samey. Bye! She needs to see this.

She needs to see Paddington too apparently, so keep it brief. Nobody, comma, in the country, comma, can access any of their money. Full stop. Money Gone. A new fast-paced satirical thriller from BBC Radio 4. What does everyone need in a zombie apocalypse? Baseball bats. Health kits. A world in crisis. He's signalling to us. He might need help.

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He doesn't need me. The powers that be! Money Gone, available on BBC Sounds. Every sport has their big, juicy controversy. Boxing has the Mike Tyson ear bite. Cycling has Lance Armstrong. Baseball has its steroid era. Curling has... Broomgate. It's a story of broken relationships,

houses divided, corporate rivalry, and a performance enhancing broom. It was a year I'd like to forget. Broomgate. Available now.