You're Dead to Me - The Witch Craze

Episode Date: October 21, 2019

Discover the truth behind the European Witch Craze. Far from the world of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, discover how one book turned the world upside down as a disgruntled patriarchy murdered thousands of innocent women. Join Greg Jenner, comedian Cariad Lloyd and historian Prof Suzannah Lipscomb. It’s history for people who don’t like history!Produced by Dan Morelle Script and research by Emma Nagouse, assisted by Eszter Szabo and Evie RandallA Muddy Knees Media production for BBC Radio 4

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a history podcast for people who don't like history, or at least people who forgot to learn any at school. My name is Greg Jenner, I'm a public historian, author and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC comedy show Horrible Histories. When I whip up a podcast it's basically one part funny,

two parts fact, stick it in the cauldron, add Eye of Newt, lovely. In case you've not heard You're Dead to Me Before, every episode I'm joined by an expert historian who is top of the class and a comedian who's a class act and today we are donning our pointy hats, buying a black cat and going for a magical broomstick ride back to early modern Europe to explore all things witchy, or rather all things European witch craze. Joining me in History Corner, she is a superstar historian and broadcaster, professor at the University of Roehampton, author of loads of books including, handily, Witchcraft, a Ladybird expert book. You'll have seen her on the telly, on all the channels and including, insert name here, which is a very funny comedy show with historians on it, which is

great. It is, of course, Professor Susanna Lipscomb. Hi, Susanna, how are you? I'm very well. Thank you very much for that. Thank you for coming in. You are a witch expert, but... Burn her! Burn her! Sorry. But that's one of the things you do. It is. I also know a bit about Henry VIII and, you know, occasional things about other things. But today, it's all witches. All witches, all of the things you do. It is. I also know a bit about Henry VIII. Oh. And, you know, occasional things about other things. But today, it's all witches.

All witches, all of the time. And in Comedy Corner, she is a comedy renaissance woman, a comedian, a writer, an actor, an improv wizard. You'll have seen her on QI, Have Got News For You, Murder and Success, Phil,

Peep Show, and she is the host of the award-winning and surprisingly funny podcast about death, Griefcast. It's Cariad Lloyd. Hello. Hello. Do you love witches? i effing love witches oh i'm a big witch fan that was nearly an f-bomb but i know i know i managed to make um you're a pod pro um i wanted to be a witch

when i was a teenager and i did that teenage girl thing of thinking maybe i am maybe i am if i do this spell maybe i there's a lot there's a lot of girls out there who think, you know, like some girls want to be princesses, some girls want to be witches. You went sort of goth, didn't you? I was a goth, yes.

I was a goth. I watched a little bit too much of The Craft. Oh yeah? The Craft. Light as a feather, stiff as a board. And I thought, yep,

I can do this. And I also loved Witches, the Roald Dahl book as well. Oh yeah, okay. I loved The Worst Witch. I was into Mega Mog, guys. I started early with Witches. Big Witch fan.

Early stuff, the early albums before it got mainstream. Before it got too mainstream, everyone was doing it. Susie, who's your witch icon growing up, pop culture? It is Roald Dahl's Grand High Witch. Yes, amazing. She was absolutely terrifying. So terrifying. Angelica Houston really brought her to life in the film,

didn't she, as well? But even just, obviously, just reading the book, that she had that bald head, do you remember? And the feet without toes. Yeah, and all the shoes erupted. Yes, exactly. And they thought children smelt like dog's droppings. I mean, she was just, it's so evocative,

and you really thought you could walk down the street and any woman might be a witch. Yeah, because it was good, because you'd grown up with just black hats and cats and broomsticks, and when you read The Roald Dahl, you were like, it could be anyone. Like it's not that she won't signify to you that she's a witch. She will look like a normal person.

All right. Well, this is the bit where we talk about the pop culture legacy. So this is called the So What Do You Know? Where I list all the things that people at home probably know about the subject. So what do you know? As a kid, people might have grown up on Megan Mogg, Mildred Hubbell, Hermione Granger, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Terry Pratchett's Granny Weatherwax. Then you've got your Macbeth, Weird Sisters, your Game of Thrones,

Melisandre, who's popping out a sort of murderous cave baby made of smoke. Weird. Then historically, we've got the witch craze. Everyone probably has heard of the Salem Witch Trials. There's Good Omens. Then you've got Little Mix, Black. Everyone probably has heard of the Salem Witch Trials. There's Good Omens. Then you've got Little Mix, Black Magic. Hot banger. One of my favourites. We always have to mention Little Mix.

It's a running gag on the show. Stevie Nicks, surely? Modern witch? Yeah, absolutely. So, witchcraft is really potent in pop culture. It's all around us. It's very, very dominant. It's something that we find both alluring and glamorous and also creepy and horrific. But where does it come from? Why are we so obsessed with it let's find out that's what the podcast is

for where do we start with witchcraft because i mean we're talking about the european witch craze that is when so we're taking us back to between about 1450 and 1750 but if we're really zeroing in it would be 1560 to about 1650 so about a century across europe um and it's a period in which witches are perceived to be especially dangerous and so as a result of that they are persecuted and prosecuted and then executed in large numbers all the fun of the fair um but there they'd been witches before that i mean i mean obviously not real witches but there had been people Whoa, whoa, whoa. Come on.

They'll get you, Greg. That's the really fascinating thing about this, is to what extent we are talking about something that is in reality or these people are alleged witches. And we know there are alleged witches back as far back as ancient Greece. The earliest case I've found is from 330 BC.

You can see witchcraft throughout history. So it's not something that arose at that period of time, but it is in that period of time that people get particularly concerned about there being witches. Why do people suddenly get concerned? We were talking nearly 600 years ago. There's that sort of key century you've mentioned, 1560 to 1660. Why is it this particular moment that suddenly people really start? Well, that's the big question.

Is it like the Beatles? It's just like right time, right place. Great haircuts. Yeah, everyone's like, yeah, you know what? We're all into this. And then it just like, you know, caught fire. Sorry. Well, there's a whole range.

I mean, there's so many arguments about what it could be, socioeconomic context, whether you're thinking about ideas about women. One particular explanation is that this is the time of the Reformation. So it's a time when people are particularly concerned about living in the end days. And this kind of sense of apocalyptic angst means that they see the devil everywhere.

So he's at the forefront of their minds as never before. So the Reformation would be sort of a religious conflict between Catholicism and Protestantism and various sects in that? Yes, the rise of Protestantism as a kind of schism in the church between Catholics and Protestants. It's not as simple as Catholics calling Protestants witches and Protestants calling Catholics witches. That would be nice and straightforward.

But people are concerned about their souls and they're concerned about how's the what's the right way to live and who is the opposite of that and so which is obviously the ultimate yeah opposite like because the other thing i've always heard is that like some of them were just like medicinal herbal ladies and then they're just you know they were just like oh have some basil also help you out and then someone was like which is that true there's definitely something in it i mean what's really hard to do to say is that we can map all the people who were herbal healers known as cunning men and women in england um onto people who are accused of witchcraft but absolutely at the time like medical knowledge for uh sort of ordinary people was pretty much the same as what physicians had. So they were dealing with herbs and trying to conjure up potent recipes for curing disease.

And then they might throw in a prayer or a spell or two. To try it all, mate. And then before you know it... Chuck it all in. Exactly. Before you know it, then that looks like it could be witchcraft or something of supernatural power. Look, I know it looks like witchcraft. I've got a cauldron.

Yes. There's a man bleeding. Yes. But actually, I know it looks like witchcraft. I've got a cauldron. Yes. There's a man bleeding. Yes. But actually, I'm just a local GP. That's what's happening to these ladies. Okay. Doing community care. Yeah.

Cariad, have you ever heard of the Malleus Maleficarum? Malefin Malefialum. No, but it sounded like you'd cast a spell. I haven't heard of it. It sounded a bit like the Mabinogion as well. It's through me slightly. It's not that. But you're speaking Welsh.

I'd love to speak Welsh. I can't speak Welsh. Oh, I do even mention it. Neither can I. It's through me slightly. It's not that. But you're speaking Welsh. I'd love to speak Welsh. I can't speak Welsh. Oh, I do even mention a canary. Neither can I. That's what that means. Is that you saying I can't speak Welsh? I can't speak Welsh, yeah. Okay.

Malleus Maleficarum is kind of like a best-selling book. Oh, really? It's second only to the Bible in terms of sales. What? And it's sort of a self-help book, but not really self-help, is it? It's more of a kind of... It's a manual on... Do you want to explain, Susanna?

Yeah, so it's... Malleus Maleifacar means the hammer of the witches and it was published in the 1480s it was written by a german dominican monk called heinrich kramer um who professor malcolm gaskell is described as a superstitious psychopath um and it was the dimension code of its day is what i'm hearing it It was incredibly popular. It argued that witches existed, basically, and that they worked for the devil. And it gave you tips on how to find them and how to exterminate them. And who was he then?

Who's this bastard that just turns up and starts saying, oh, she's got a black hat, walk quicker? Quite. He's someone who's borrowing the prestige of the church. So one of the key things that makes it important is that he reproduces a papal bull, so an order by the Pope at the beginning of the book, which says that which is a heretics. And so it looks like he's acting for the church, that he's their official spokesman. But in fact, he's someone who's jumped up and done exactly what you said

and puts himself in this role as an authority figure. Surprise, surprise, guys. It's happened quite a lot in history, hasn't it? Absolutely, it does. But also, I mean, it comes out in 1487. Printing's been around

for like 30 years. What's it called? Malice Maleficarum. That's it? Do you have to say it like that? Malleus. Malleus. Maleficarum.

Malleus Maleficarum. Very nice. Hammer of the Witches. Good name for a heavy metal band. Yeah, yeah. Anyone fancy starting one? So it's hugely significant, has a massive knock-on effect. Germany is sort of the hub.

It's kind of one of the hubs, isn't it, where the witch craze kind of has a lot of heat, if you'll pardon the pun, and it sort of radiates out. Our researcher on this episode, Esther, is Hungarian. She told us that vampire folklore is also connected to witches as well in Transylvania. And what's really interesting about

something like this being put in print is that it means that you've got people who are of elite status who are reading this and that facilitates a really crucial shift that makes the witch craze possible in that once elites start to believe it, it starts to move

into law and so you start to have witchcraft becoming a crime, like black magic becoming a capital offence. And that's the thing that makes it possible to prosecute witches, literally at trial, and therefore to execute them. So before it wasn't illegal, they were just like, oh, there are witches, but what do they do? They're just out there. That's right. So it became illegal in England in 1542 um scotland in 1563 and sort of across europe at various times in the 16th century literally the government at the time

believed that so much they were like well we better enshrine this into law isn't that amazing to stop these women that is like that's like do you remember lempit opic was like in charge of like aliens like do you remember when he was he was like given this sorry a bit early but he i remember reading like he was in charge of alien invasion and like if that happened lembit was the man who'd like looked into it and you're like why is any money funding that like why was any money funding and also lembit opic and also that is not the guy you want i mean there's a whole podcast to start on that but like so they literally i can't I can't imagine, like all these guys just sat around and were like, have you heard? Apparently they're real. We better get the law on these women.

Well, I think it comes down to a lot of it. A lot of it is women. A lot of it is female power. And so, you know, you've got a law here saying women, well, witches can do things with this power of theirs. They can kill. They can harm. Were women at this point becoming more, was there some way that women were becoming more powerful that that made that patriarchal society panic?

It certainly... She should be a historian. This is brilliant. This is certainly a period in which the patriarchy is becoming very anxious. Yes, definitely. But what were women doing? It's not like after the war where you're like,

oh, they've all got jobs. This is an era where we suddenly get women on the throne. Oh, that's interesting. You get Mary Tudor, the first english queen yeah and then elizabeth you've got jane gray for nine days i mean that's that's not really she doesn't stay for long in scotland mary queen of scots in france of course there have been a couple of queens who are sort of ruling on behalf of sons and so on suddenly women are asserting power that's so interesting i've never probably thought of that because elizabeth does her own marketing campaign so well but of course the repercussions of that must be that men sort of

like we better not let that happen again guys like she one got through but like let's let's keep an eye on that yeah that's so interesting i'm now going to subvert you because uh carrie yes can you guess malice malafakara mal Malifacara. Can you guess what percentage of witches were men in Iceland? Ooh! And I don't mean the shop. No, but Iceland, as we know, is very gender equal. Yes. You know, they're really big on that,

and their gender pay gap is one of the smallest in the world, so I'm saying 50%. They are very progressive. They were considerably more woke than that. Oh. 92% of witches were men. Wow! So this is sort of an interesting construct for us.

Did they just not have the word wizard? Witches and wizards are different. So this is a thing that we need to kind of get our head around a little bit. I mean, it's fair to say, certainly in England and Scotland, most of the cases are women, but not all of them, isn't it? Yeah, something like 90%. So there are two periods in British history

where in the 1590s in Scotland and in the 1640s in East Anglia and Essex, where there are particular large numbers of witches tried and executed. And the figures are high in terms of women. So 90% in Essex, for example. But across Europe, there are various places. Russia's another place where there's a lot of male witches.

Normandy, lots of male witches. And so witches here and New England... It's a joy as a woman who's always described as a female comedian to hear the phrase male witch. To be like, yeah, how does it feel to be a male witch? They're like, I'm just a witch. I'm just the same as the women. Why do I have to be a male witch? Let's move on to some of the techniques for hunting a witch.

This is not an advice. Don't use this. Cariad, have you ever heard of the Diabolic Pact? I think it's called Brexit. These days. Yes, that's certainly one of them. No, in the context of the 16th, 17th century, it's item of the pact.

All right, well, Susanna, can we hear a bit more about what this was? So this is a pact with the devil, basically. So it's not just herbs. It's that you have been beguiled by Satan's promises of wealth or power or whatever it is and have chosen to renounce your baptism and offer the devil your soul.

And in return, you'll be able to do all sorts of things and it was sealed it was thought in the demonologies, they write about this a lot by nocturnal sabbats so at night witches would get together and they would demonstrate their

obedience to the devil by kissing his anus, so this was the kiss of shame. Yeah, osculum infame, that's in, isn't it? Only some men would think that's what women get up to. No, do you know what? No, thank you. We don't want to do that. You imagine in your head,

yeah, they'd better like to kiss some bums, wouldn't they? That's what all those women are doing. No, do you know what? They're not. They don't want to do that. There's also a heretical sect called the Cathars and they're supposed to kiss the anus of a cat. So just so you know. Disgusting behaviour.

And they were also supposed to have sex with him and his incubi and succubi, his semen was apparently intolerably cold. What a relief, my vagina is so hot. That devil has cooled me right down. Thank you. Wonderful.

And he appeared perhaps in the form of a goat or a toad. Yeah. I read that. They would say, I read old witch trials and they would say, you know, she came, she saw him in the form of a bird and it was the devil. And they would say, I saw her talking to the bird. You're like some poor woman just chatting to a black bird and suddenly it's like she was talking to the devil.

And that's also the idea of witches familiars, isn't it? The idea of them having like a black cat or some animal. Which is a particularly English idea. We don't really see it much in Europe, actually. We're the only ones obsessed with black cats. That's so lame, isn't it? We're like, yeah, throw the cat in. It was probably something to do with that the rest of Europe.

But Hollywood's picked it up, so I guess it's gone global now through Hollywood culture. Because the culture of witchcraft in England spread to New England, so therefore the American version of witchcraft is the English one, really. But also they were thought to do pretty horrid things like take their newborns and sacrifice them to the devil, cannibalism, infanticide, but also particularly raising storms, killing crops.

So it's anti-fertility as well is what they're getting up to. Nasty stuff. It's not just a fear of the devil in the world, but a knowledge that he's in the world. So there's the idea that the devil definitely a fear of the devil in the world, but a knowledge that he's in the world. So there's the idea that the devil definitely exists, he's definitely in the world, and these women are in league with him. But they're not demons themselves, are they?

They're ordinary people. But why is it that women are susceptible rather than men? We love cold semen. Sure, who among us doesn't? Yeah, but women are very susceptible to it. But that's basically it. I mean, that's it in a nutshell, really. There's a sense that women were considered at the time

to be completely insatiable. It's really interesting in terms of cultural attitudes. Women are thought to want sex all the time. That's how weird at that time. And then it moves on to, like, they don't want it at all. Yeah, they've got a headache. Probably don't give it to her. So it's this idea that women are much more

susceptible to sexual sin and therefore the devil can tempt them more easily. Which goes back to Eve and the apple in the Garden of Eden. So women are horny for horns, lusty for Lucifer.

So there aren't male witches but women are the ones who have less willpower. Exactly. So it's not like they're weaker, they're vulnerable and that means the devil

can come along in the form of a cat's anus, whisper some sweet words to them and before they know it they've killed a baby imagine if he turned up just a giant cat's anus that's all he was not legs not head just the rest of the cat oh no it's just the anus i uh it just works really well another good name for a band six foot anus um so So we see the witch craze take off in England and Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Scotland's a separate country at this point. But why is there a difference? One of the reasons that some historians have given is the Little Ice Age,

which sounds like a sort of DreamWorks animation for kids, but it's the opposite of global warming. Have you ever heard of this, Cariad? No. It's the idea that there's sort of a drop in temperature across the world. There's a really significant drop in temperature from about 1560, a coincidence. So temperatures drop.

So by the time we get to 1607, there's the first frost fair on the Thames, so the ice is thick enough for people to have frost fairs. Oh, is that why? Because I've always thought, what happened to the frost fairs? You know, they'd be like, they just go out on Thames. I was like, well, how come we can't do that now? There's two reasons for that. Global warming, obviously, and the other reason is the embankment changed the flow of the river.

So by building an embankment, you change the dynamics of water. In the 1680s, they could roast oxes on the Thames in winter. What? That's how. You'd have fire on ice. Fire on ice, yes. Game of thrones. Game of thrones.

Excellent game of thrones reference. Another game of thrones reference. Sorry. Yeah, so, you know, and also also just throw in the fact at the time, you've got like one in four harvests are failing and it's not like people can pop to the supermarket. You've got, you know, your harvest fails, people are hungry.

If two harvests fail in a row, there's famine. And in the 1590s, there's a terrible period where it rains pretty much for four years. And so crops are destroyed. Yeah, across Europe incessantly. And so crops are destroyed. And so there's a terrible period where it rains pretty much for four years. And so crops are destroyed. Yeah, across Europe incessantly. And so crops are destroyed. And so there's very much, and sort of these conditions are,

and then, you know, add in plague recurring every 16 years, warfare, religious division, you know. Sure, throw a little sprinkle of that in. Yeah. And you've got a situation where you feel like somebody's got to be to blame for these conditions. That is so fascinating because it does sound like now, of like things are out of people's control.

When, can I swear? I keep wanting to swear. When shit hits the fan. Yeah. Like that's what's happening now. When things are far away, people can get on with their own lives. And at the moment you can see it's creeping into people's, literally their street. So they start panicking and they start looking to blame.

And you see all these other societal problems. So you can see at the moment they're like, well, harvest has failed. It keeps raining. Also, Laura down the road's a little bit strange and actually since she moved to the village the crops failed like you're just looking for something there's no logic and they didn't even have scientists not to listen to unlike us who have them and we don't listen to them they had john d he was a wizard they had a wizard oh yeah of course yeah he was the astronomer royal slash astrologer royal slash uh elizabeth saucy sauc boy. So he did a lot of saucy stuff.

Oh, no, I've known about John Dee. Wife swapping. He was saucy. So, yeah, so they were just looking for something to make sense. Spot on, because the people are hungry and then they're angry and then they're envious of those who've got more than them. And it creates a sort of the mental space in which the accusations can occur. And there's a really great historian called Robin Briggs

who wrote particularly about this, the fact that it really comes down to these navel-y relations. And, you know, you've got to look at the interactions of people with each other. Because up until then, quite a lot of the time, people would be doing these grand theories of it, you know, because it is the Reformation, it must be this and that. And actually, it really does come down to these everyday interactions. Yeah. What, like, this might be jumping ahead. Did it just sort of stop?

Did people just go oh god sorry about that it's embarrassing i just burnt someone yesterday what was i thinking did everyone sort of wake up from a hangover like oh my god we burned five of them what were we oh that's so embarrassing right apology note yes sorry about the burning we thought she slept with the devil why i'm so sorry it is basically a sort of change. Yeah, there's a change of mentality. There's a different attitude that arises towards the use of evidence, for example. I mean, one of the interesting things is at this time, this is being prosecuted under law. And so you've got to prove it.

And generally speaking, if you want to prove a crime against somebody in Europe, you have to have two witnesses. But the thing about witchcraft is there doesn't tend to be witnesses because of course the devil's sneaky like that and he hides all the evidence so then you have to find a way to get the evidence so then you need a confession and so then it's whether you believe confessions particularly if they're extracted under torture or not and it's so it's changing attitudes towards the law amongst other things. Susanna who's the first person to be executed for witchcraft in England? It's a woman called Agnes Waterhouse in 1566. So she was executed after having been accused by her sister, Elizabeth Francis,

who was also found guilty. So family turning on family. Wow. It's pre-O Jeremy Kyle, isn't it? It's pure, like, today on Jeremy Kyle. And now they've stopped that, so who knows what will happen. Yeah, exactly. So there's a thing called swimming,

which was not popping down to your local Lido for a splash. It was dunking. But it's this sort of logical puzzle where they are looking to prove evil or innocence using water and again it's a british tradition particularly it's something that james we're so bad at first comes out with we're awful at it i mean we're brilliant at it but awful so they um so actually it's not it's not the dunking chair you know we often think of the ducking chair that's actually for also women but the scolds that women who are speaking out of turn. Oh God, I would have got that. We all would have got that.

You and your opinions, yeah. We all would have got that. But swimming is when you, is it called an ordeal, as you say, for testing for witchcraft and the alleged witch is stripped naked, her thumbs or his thumbs are tied to his toes and then they're dipped into a river and if they're innocent they're thought to sink and then hopefully be pulled out in time by ropes um and if they're guilty it's thought that the the waters will

reject them as they have rejected their baptism and so they will be thrust up out of the water um and they will float so baptism inversion really it's the idea that the water will say no you're not holy out you get exactly but did did the water ever reject, no, you're not holy, out you get. Exactly. But did the water ever reject anyone? Did anyone ever literally go, wow, that water just spat that woman out? Well, I suppose, you know, if you, I don't know, if you had a bit of gas that day, you know, the floating around. I don't know. Some people are quite buoyant.

Yeah, yeah, true. We are buoyant as humans. Oh, that's so horrible. That's so horrible. So the logic of it essentially was to try and prove it using nature. People presumably drowned in the process yes and so quite often

if you were innocent then you might drown because you'd gone underwater and they didn't pull you out in time yeah it's pretty horrible god the logic behind that

very much the Monty Python logic isn't it in Holy Grail if she weighs the same as a duck she's a witch so that's pretty

nasty that is in England and Scotland there is a difference though between England and Scotland in terms of execution She weighs the same as a duck. She's a witch. So that's pretty nasty. That is in England and Scotland. There is a difference, though, between England and Scotland in terms of execution. Do you know what it is, Cariad? No. I wonder which one is. One of us is probably more brutal. It could be either culture.

Depends who you think is brutal. So you've mentioned burnings. Yes. Which one do you think does the burning? Scotland's colder. Do they go for burning? Heat up a local village at the same time? Correct answer for probably the wrong logic, but it is Scotland.

Susanna, why does Scotland burn witches and England hangs them or crushes them? Oh, God. So across Europe, quite a lot. In Spain, for example, they also burn them, whereas in New England, like England, they hang them. And it's basically about what you think the crime is. So if you think the crime of witchcraft is heresy, then you need to burn them. Whereas actually, if it's maleficium is the technical term, so doing harm with magic, killing someone with magic, and that's a crime under law, then you are hanged like a murderer or, you know, like a thief at a time.

Wow. It's so weird, isn isn't it because you have to believe that magic is real yes to believe that that woman is guilty of it and that in itself if you believe in magic is real surely isn't that in a way not a christian act to believe that that like no it's perfectly orthodox at the time in fact there's a verse in exodus that people cite all the time that say thou shall not suffer a witch to live now critics um of that challenged the translation from the hebrew but at the time it was orthodox doctrine to find and search out witches oh my god so many issues so many issues um get a better translator next time guys definitely there's a really famous a case called the pendle hill witch trials ever heard of that

i've heard of that yeah it's quite well known Can you tell us about that story? Because it's a really complicated one, isn't it? It is. And it's big in this country because of so many people involved. So it's not huge numbers by comparison to Europe or indeed to Salem, but 12 people are accused, 10 women, 2 men. 11 of them are tried and 10 are found guilty and executed. So it's in Lancashire in 1612. And it starts with a young girl called Alison Device

who said that she had harmed a peddler because she tried to buy pins off him. He wouldn't give them to her. And then he fell down and had a stroke. And she believed that she had done it because she thought she'd sold her soul to the devil. And this is a kind of family tradition because her mother also was accused of witchcraft.

Her grandmother, who's known as Old Demdyke, is accused of witchcraft. And she said she'd sold her soul to the devil 20 years before. So there's very much this culture of women who were probably cunning men and women, or cunning women in this case, thinking that they could do this damage to somebody. It's a pretty complicated story. What would you sell your soul to the devil for, Cariad, in return for riches on earth? Constant supply of green and black chocolate.

That's quite a low sale price for your soul. Dude, it's pricey. It's pricey, that green and black. Cost of chocolate, absolutely. I think I'd probably go for Rhythm Guitarist Metallica. That's why I'd go for it. Oh, OK, I see. I went low, yeah. Now you've said that, yeah.

If I'm going to burn in eternity, then I at least want to play Glastonbury with Metallica. I'd be full of chocolate. All right. I'd smell delicious. But, I mean, the Pendle Hill Witch Trials is a case where you see a community essentially turning on itself

and it blows up into quite a big thing. But there are case studies where it gets a bit farcical and almost falls apart really there's one called the somsbury trials again lancashire yes is it happening almost exactly after the pendle witch trials the same year 1612 and this one doesn't quite produce the same outcome no this is an interesting one so in the the Pendle witch trials, again, we have a daughter accusing a mother. There's a nine year old girl called Janet Device, who gives evidence against her mother and brother and sister. And as a result of this, apart from old Demdike, who dies in a cell under Lancashire Castle, the rest of them are hanged and one gets off at Gallows Hill. But with the case with Salisbury, we have another young girl, a 14-year-old girl called Grace, who's accusing people of witchcraft, but it turns out that actually she has been coached. So they're looking to sort of the example of Pendle, perhaps.

A local Catholic priest called Thompson has forced her to incriminate her Protestant, her Anglican relatives. And what's interesting here is that the system of justice finds this out. And so the three accused women are set free. Wow, that's amazing. So she's called Grace Sourbats, which I think is a great name.

That's amazing. Does she get punished for lying, for perjury? I don't know what happened to Grace Sourbats. Oh, really? That's interesting. Sorry, don't know. What happened to that bloomin' Catholic priest that coached her to do it? Well, it all just dissolves.

But that's the interesting thing about it, that that's not really considered to be so much of a crime as the actual potential for witchcraft, which is far more serious. But in France, there's this story of the Loudun possessions, where there is a priest again, and he's called Urban Grandier, isn't he? And that's a really weird story, because he gets nuns to be possessed by the devil,

and then he ends up being burned. But they end up still kind of possessed. You can't keep a good nun down. It's a really creepy story. It's a very good movie. So they're doing weird, sexy stuff. They're getting naked. They're screaming. And they become like a tourist attraction. People go to see the crazy nuns. One of the most famous books about witchcraft or about sinister things is written by quite a famous guy.

You might have heard of him. King James I. Whoa. King James VI of Scotland, because he's the king of Scotland first. Then he becomes king of England. His book is called Demonology. Right. And he really believes, doesn't he, Susanna?

He's really into it. Yeah, so he has had encounters with witches himself, he thinks, in the 1590s. Oh, sorry. That's when Macbeth gets written. It is. Yes, thank you. I knew I knew something else. Yeah, yeah. And so he writes this book, Demonology, which

is the only book about the subject by a reigning monarch. And it's... Until Elizabeth II gets in there. Oh, yeah. You never know. And it's about the subject by a reigning monarch. Until Elizabeth II gets in there. Oh, yeah. You never know. And it's about the reality of witches, but also fairies and demons and werewolves.

And in fact, I'm sure that some of the people who wrote the True Blood series or whatever had read it because there's things in it about glamouring your victims and there's all the culture that comes out in later series. And it's written to refute scepticism. So it's an argument between two people and he says he writes it because of the fearful abounding at this time

of these detestable slaves of the devil and so it's uh and it's a bestseller like the malice manifacarum people buy it in huge numbers and it is really potent in terms of affecting people's ideas about things and the most famous famous associated case, probably, or person associated with witchcraft in England in the 1600s is Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General. Have you heard of him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another great movie. From comedies. These are often mentioned in comedies.

Yeah. But Christie did a whole show where she pretended to be Matthew Hopkins, the Witchfinder General, for a bit. And there's an Inside Number Nine as well. There is, yeah. Yeah, when they're talking about that. Yes. His story is a weird one, because he's sort of self-appointed. He's totally self-appointed, yeah. That's his, you know, what title should I have?

I'll have Witchfinder General. Literally, he says, I'm the Witchfinder General. And he is... Oh, my God. Nobody says, we need a Witchfinder. He just appears one day. He's like, I'm the Witchfinder General. And everyone's like, oh, God, it's that guy, you know. He's not even the Witchfinder Regional. Yeah, Assistant Regional Manager.

Towns in East Anglia and Essex pay him to find out if there are witches in their community and to help them deal with it. So he makes a lot of money off finding witches. And he moves around from place to place doing that in the time of the English Civil War. So the reason he can get away with it is because it's the time of anarchy and so ordinary kind of law is broken down a bit and he's taking advantage of that situation. What a bastard.

And what are his techniques? As well as the swimming, ducking people, checking the water, what else is he looking for? So he is interested in whether people have made a deal with the devil. And he tries to find out the truth of that by sleep deprivation. So he takes his victims, walks them up and down for three days or has people do it because, of course, he's sleeping for several days at a time. And, you know, there's an 80 yearold woman, Elizabeth Clark, is the first victim. And because they believe at the time

that pain is a guarantor of truth. Normally in England, torture is not used. It's not common under law. But it is used in Europe. And there you've got, you know, the rack and strapado, which is where you're held up by your wrists behind your back or so stretching the body or compressing the body. Thumb screws are used in Scotland, for example.

But sleep deprivation is a particular English form of torture that is used. We like to do it slightly different here. It's more psychologically damaging and more horrific in the long term. Oh, God. Yes, I know about it at the moment. Have a three- old um so yeah so and as a result of that of course you get lots of people who will denounce others that's the thing about anything it's just so out of it i'm a chronic insomniac and the longest i've gone without sleep is five days and on day five i became hysterical and just giggled at everything i found a bottle

of ketchup so funny i'm was just crying with laughter. You are a dream Edinburgh audience. Exactly, I should have been in the audience. Not for your own mental health. Oh, that's so awful. It's hugely powerful, isn't it, lack of sleep? Yes. Have you ever heard of witch's marks, Cariad? Witch's marks?

Marks? Or marks of the devil? Oh, yeah, that rings a bell. Like, on them? On their house? I'm really guessing, though. Both forms of witch's marks, actually. Okay, great, yeah, yeah. Spot on. Yeah, so that? I'm really guessing there. Both forms of witch's mark actually. Spot on.

Yeah, so that was another Matthew Hopkins speciality. So looking for a sign of the devil. Again, if they've made a pact with the devil, he's probably put a mark on their body. Oh, yeah. Didn't they used to blame birthmarks? Birthmarks, exactly. Exactly.

Moles, some sort of skin tag. And it was said to be in some secret place, which, you know, guess what? It's not just looking under the armpits. You know, it's going to be looking between a woman's legs. In your pants, Matthew Hopkins. Tell surprise. And it was thought the place was insensible to pain. So they would stick needles into this part to try and find out what the part was. But it's also actually, I think, really important.

There's something here going on about old women and body shaming because quite often they're saying that this mark is a teat from which the devil can suck or whatever. So basically if you've got any kind of protuberance on your body or genitalia particularly, that's going to be used as an example of the devil's mark. It's really horrific. It's absolutely horrific.

And as you say, he's looking for any excuse and he's using people It's really horrific. It's absolutely horrific and as you say he's looking for any excuse and he's using people's age against him. I think it's fair to say he was an absolute dick. Yeah, I think so. What a horrible man. Oh my god.

How did he get away? Why did no one why was nobody like you know that guy who's got no qualifications and just like calling in the witch finder why did like someone

from his school turn up and be like oh yeah we thought he was a dick at school and we didn't listen to him. We're kind of surprised you're all listening to him. Everyone's a bit preoccupied with the war. Fair play, fair play.

Huge numbers of people are dying in the war. And also the area it happens is really crucially an area where lots of people are Puritans, become a really godly folk. And it's from that area, actually, you have a lot of the people moving to New England to set up new communities, which is why it happens there as well. Yeah. That's obviously an English story.

But across Europe in total, the witch craze, we tend to say 1450 to 1750. But that century of 1560 to 1660 seems to be the real zenith. How many people do we think are executed in total? Because I've seen crazy numbers like five million. And that seems high. Yeah, I mean, that's the Brown-Savinci Code. He says 5 million. I know your sources now.

Actually, we think probably something like 90,000. 90,000, okay, so Wembley Stadium. Which is still a huge number of people. 90,000 is sort of best guess um but it's really hard to say does that surprise you carry the number because it's just what a bizarre humans are so weird aren't they and also i think the pop music unlike i'm joking but it's like an interesting comparison isn't it of like when you see people going hysterical about a band or a boy band or that sort of thing how and how it can be contagious and I'm sort of glad that like music exists and is allowed to, people can express that further that way because you can see how easily humans just decide

that people are other. Like it's so easy and it can like you know. And the power of the group as you say. Power of the group yeah. You get a community who say that person's a witch and you you can do something as a group that you wouldn't do as an individual but i just think the power of the group is really like it's so um seductive it's so seductive and also as we know from anyone who's ever experienced bullying which is like everybody in their life everybody nobody wants to be in the court the one person in the

corner everyone's pointing at so everyone decides to stay in the group by going oh my god thank god it's not me because i actually did sleep with the devil last night so like so then when they're pointing it all the problems are one old lady and you can see all the justification well it's just one old lady she's got no family like this is far she's i thought she was a bit weird and grumpy anyway and you really see this in terms of how different regions respond to it so half of those people who are executed are executed in german states but even in different towns it can vary so there's a german town called rothenburg abt tower where they had very very few executions and that's because they insisted rigorously on

evidence being produced and they would even torture those who were accusing to check that they were telling the truth. So you're going to stop accusing so quickly, aren't you? Or you really, really have to believe in it, don't you? Wow, that's excellent German logic there, isn't it? OK, how serious are you about her accusation? That's similar. In ancient Greece, there was a city-state called Locris

where anyone was allowed to suggest a law, but if your law wasn't passed by the voters, you were hanged. So you had to really think you had the numbers. You had to really think it's a good idea for a law. Who's the last witch executed in Europe? Our last official witch is a woman called Anna Goldie who was executed in Glacier in Switzerland in 1782. Anna Goldie.

Yes. That's quite a nice name. And she was pardoned by the Swiss Parliament in 2007. Oh, really? It's a miscarriage of justice. That's not very helpful, really. Bit late, but we'll take it. We'll take it.

That's interesting. But, I mean, when it stops varies greatly. I mean, the Dutch Republic, they stop in 1609. Oh, lovely. The very sensible Dutch. Come on, guys, let's stop there. And that's well before Matthew Hopkins, you know, well before Salem. So it really varies yeah and then legislation interestingly peters out um um is repealed after

people stop believing so it's not actually that the law is repealed and then the trial stop it's that the trial stop and then the law changes to reflect wow oh so that's it so the law basically follows on from the fact that people have stopped really accusing people of witchcraft. Yes, so there's... You know that law about the witches? It's a bit embarrassing, isn't it? Actually, nobody believes in it anymore. Imagine that. It's like having a law against fairies or something. It's just...

Maybe we should have a law against fairies, just in case. The nuance window! No! The nuance window! This is where we allow our expert, Professor Susanna, to launch into a little lecture, just a couple of minutes, on the thing that you think we need to hear, what's really important that we can hear.

So I'm going to get my stopwatch up, and if you're ready, Susanna, here we go. We know that most witches were poor, elderly women, but the question is why? And there are two reasons. One is that it took time to build up a reputation as a witch. So at the trial, people would come up with, you know, she did this five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. So, you know, years had to pass of you doing accumulated events that looked like witchcraft for you to be accused,

which tells us that people were thinking more about witches than they actually accused people. So there were lots of people they thought were witches, potentially, but not ready to incriminate them yet. And that makes sense, because the last thing you'd want to do if you thought that someone was a witch was actually to annoy her. But the other thing about it is that it plays into an idea of the culture of motherhood at the time. So Professor Linda Roper has argued that the aesthetic of the period was affected by the fact that women were pretty much pregnant every other year once they got married. So you see those sort of pictures by Rubens and you've got these big fleshy women

with their huge hips and big bellies and heavy breasts and women look like that because they looked like that, right? So this is what women look like. But witches are never depicted as that. Witches are depicted as being sagging and shriveled up, crones. So the crucial thing about them is not that they're old, it's that they're no longer fertile. And so that they are motivated to copulate with the devil

because they're no longer having sex, probably widowed. They're motivated to attack children and young mothers. And so they are, you know, the symbol of inversion. They are the anti-mother. And so what it comes down to is that we're not just looking at old women, we're looking at menopausal and post-menopausal women who no longer have the power that society gives them. And so therefore, they're no longer fertile and therefore they must be copulating with the devil and attacking those who have something they don't have and I just think that idea is fascinating applause and carry on yeah oh that's just classic isn't it patriarchal society what you should see

now I think that even our society today doesn't deal with menopausal women in a healthy way at all it is terrible how menopausal women you know are treated it's not discussed and you know there's a lot of talk now about periods and menstruation everyone's becoming very vocal about it like hey don't be ashamed but even the menopause you can see everyone being like i still don't feel like i know anything about it i still don't feel like i understand it in a way and it's still very hushed and women are still made to feel ashamed of it and i think hopefully this generation of women who are now talking about periods all the time myself included when we hit that menopause we'll be able to hopefully be like no this needs to be talked about more because i still think it's

really hard i still think it's treated like you're basically shriveled up and do you know though that when you hit the menopause your ovaries actually shrink they physically shriveled up and... Do you know, though, that when you hit the menopause, your ovaries actually shrink? They physically shrivel. That's absolutely fine. I know, but isn't it interesting that that's become a word that we associate? Yeah, shrivel is not a good word, is it? Something that's physically happening to women is then associated with, like,

oh, that woman is shriveled and shrunk, and that's associated as negative. So it's interesting, those people in the 17th century wouldn't have known that ovaries literally physically decrease in size. And it's interesting, those people in the 17th century wouldn't have known that ovaries literally, physically decrease in size. And it's that comparison with the fact that if we think of maybe some of these women

were cunning women who had accumulated knowledge, who are therefore powerful in their minds, what better way to make them be belittled than by saying they're actually useless

in their bodies and therefore they've turned to the dark side. Therefore they're evil, rather than they just don't need men anymore at all. I've worked out the herbs. My husband's dead. I don't need you around.

Witch. Pretty much. Yeah. We have more or less reached the end of the podcast, which means it's time to quiz our comedian. See what she has learned. So what do you know now? our comedian see what she has learned so what do you know now this is the bit which we call the so what do you know now because we have the so what do you know the beginning now you've had a podcast

yeah yeah i'm absolutely fascinated let's see what has stuck in your brain okay please bear in mind i also have recently had sleep deprivation torture so my short-term memory is uh not as good as it all right well know, on this show, I think the average score is about 7 out of 10. Oh, yeah. So, you know, we're looking for you to get... Come on, come on. Come on, 2 out of 3 you can do.

Just, like, pull the pressure on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do it. All right, OK, so I'm starting a little stopwatch here. 10 questions. Oh, God. Stopwatch? Why is there a stopwatch? This is getting more like GCSEs.

I'm panicking. For my purposes, not yours. Don't worry, it's OK. All right, here we go. What was the diabolics Pact? When a witch had made a pact with the devil to give away her soul. Second question. Who was Anna Goldie? Anna Goldie was the

last witch killed in Switzerland quite late, 1792. Very good. Very close. Bang on, we're in it. Matthew Hopkins gave himself witch title. Witch finder general. Absolutely. And he gave it to him himself. What a dick. Which king wrote his book Demonology?

James I of England, James VI of Scotland. Very accurate. In which country were over 90% of people accused of witchcraft men? Iceland. Iceland. What happened at the Salmsbury witch trials? Oh, the Salmsbury was the one that the trial fell apart. Yes.

After the Pendle Hill trials. Very good. And it was the woman, the girl was being coached by a naughty Catholic priest. Bang on. In 1612, what was the name of the famous trial where lots of people were accused? Pendle Hill. Pendle Hill, exactly. What was swimming?

Oh, oh God, swimming. Oh, it wasn't dunking. Oh, it was where your thumbs were crossed and tied to your toes and you were thrown into a river and if you were um evil the river would eject you yes a baptism you're doing really well nine what was the malias maleficarum malias maleficarum malias maleficarum i liked the name so much hang on a minute uh was the book written by this irish german german monk i was getting my Irish confused. And it was about how to find witches

and he was the first, a big bestseller. It was. Sold more than the Bible. Sold the same as the Bible. Nearly as many as the Bible. Nearly as many as the Bible. And question 10. How many people were executed

during the European witch craze in total, we think? 90,000. 10 out of 10. Yay! I mean, sleep deprivation works. Yes. I really like witches. See, that logic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a sense of trouble. Yeah, sorry mean, sleep deprivation works. Yes. I really like witches. See, that logic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was his trouble. Oh, yeah. Yeah, sorry, I'll take that back. Okay. If the CIA are listening, please don't do it. Yeah. You've done really well there, Carrie.

Oh, it was fascinating. It was so interesting. Which obviously means that Susanna is obviously an excellent teacher. Yeah. That's what we can take from this. Thank you so much. It's a really interesting subject. It's really interesting.

And it's the kind of thing that actually we all know, and actually quite quickly you realize, hang on a minute, I don't really know this story at all so uh it's been fantastic having you both here thank you so much to both of you well that's pretty much all we have time for if you've enjoyed the podcast please do share it with your friends leave a review online like and subscribe do all those button things that you're meant to do with podcasts it's called you're dead to me big thank you to my guests professor susanna lipscomb and carriad lloyd thank you both for coming in. Hope you enjoyed it. Thank you.

You're singing that all day, aren't you? Join me next time when we'll be venturing to another dark corner of the past with two completely different travel companions. I'm off to go and watch reruns of Charmed. See ya! You're Dead to Me was a Muddy Knees media production for BBC Radio 4. The researchers were Evie Randall and Esther Jarboe,

and the script was by Emma Neguse. The producer was Dan Moret. Russell Cain here, and I'm here to tell you about Evil Genius, the BBC Radio 4 podcast, where we take icons from history and then decimate them by slinging mud. Think you know everything about Einstein? You don't. He was a woman-hater. You probably think you know about amy winehouse that she was a victim she had a pretty dark side and we're not shy about exploring it evil genius we take people from

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