You're Dead to Me - Zheng Yi Sao

Episode Date: November 26, 2021

Greg Jenner, comedian Ria Lina and Prof Ronald C Po investigate one of the most successful pirates to have ever lived, Zheng Yi Sao. During the 18th century Qing dynasty, she led the most feared army of pirates the world had ever seen - all without a parrot on her shoulder.Research: Will Clayton Script: Emma Nagouse, Will Clayton and Greg Jenner Project Manager: Siefe Miyo Edit Producer: Cornelius MendezA production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. All day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, a comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster and I'm the chief nerd on the BBC kids show Horrible Histories. And today we are setting course for 18th century China, for the Qing Dynasty to be exact, to parlay with Chung Yi-Sau, the most successful pirate of all time. And to help me do that, I'm joined by two very special crewmates. In History Corner, he's Associate Professor at the London School of Economics, an expert in late imperial China, and is a specialist in maritime and global studies.

Indeed, he's the author of Blue Frontier, Maritime Vision and Power in the Qing Empire. It's Professor Ronald Poe. Ahoy, ahoy, Ron, how are you? Hi, Greg. Thanks very much for having me here today. I'm very excited about this podcast. And in the crow's nest of Comedy Corner, she's a sensational comedian, writer, actor, and actual proper scientist with a PhD. You'll have seen her on BBC Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, Question Team on Dave, Steph's Packed Lunch on Channel 4, plus loads of BBC radio shows.

It's the brilliant Ria Lina. Welcome, Ria. Hello. Thank you so much for having me on this one. I know very little, but I know it's going to be good. Knowing very little is fine. By the end of it, we want you to know more than little. That's the hope. Ears are open. Ria, you have a PhD in viral bioinformatics. Don't even know what that is. No, neither do I. I'm Asian. They can hand them out. I always loved viruses. I fell in love with

them as a teenager, which I know is a weird thing to say, but they're a fascinating part of nature. It extends even further back than what we're talking about today, back to the beginning of time. Right. So slightly earlier than the 18th century. Okay. Slightly, just a couple of millennia. So you know a lot about science. How are you with history? Did you enjoy it at school? It's a double-sided coin. I love history. I love finding out about history, but I myself, and this is why I went into science, was awful at the essay writing where you had to figure out the political motivations and why people did this and why people did that. And I couldn't do that side that before. And today we're talking about a very famous pirate, the most successful of all time. She was the scourge of the South China Seas.

And Ria, you have Asian heritage, Filipino heritage, I believe. I do, yes. So do you know of Chung Yi Sao? Have you ever encountered her name? The only way I think I've encountered it is I thought that they referenced her in Pirates of the Caribbean.

They do, yeah. And that is the only knowledge that I have of her. But that's why I was so excited when you said this is the topic I was like, oh, you know, just to confirm that she was real, confirm that she did all the stuff that they hinted at. I love a strong Asian female role model. You know, OK, yes. OK, she was a pirate. OK, that's not like, OK, maybe we don't push our children in that direction. However, I'm very excited to hear all about her. So what do you know? This is where I guess what listeners at home might know about today's subject. And I suspect, like Ria, I think it's Pirates of the Caribbean is probably the knowledge base Chung Yi Sao does have quite a prominence on the internet, there's quite a lot of websites about her, she is quite well known in YouTube

in children's books, sometimes she crops up she has a variety of names so Chung Yi Sao she's also known as Chung Shue Shue Yang, or just Cheng Yi's wife all of those names I'm probably mispronouncing horribly Ron, but I'm doing my best it's often written as Ching Shie for English speakers, that's how we probably wife. All of those names I'm probably mispronouncing horribly, Ron, but I'm doing my best.

It's often written as Ching Shi for English speakers. That's how we probably read it. But certainly, as Maria said, it's Pirates of the Caribbean at World's End where she gets a screen cameo. So Hollywood has sort of done her, but there's a lot more to say. So let's go sail the historical high seas. Professor Ron, before we meet Chung Yi-Sau, can we learn a little bit about the world that she was born into? What is life like? What is the geopolitics, the geography of the South China Seas and that part of China in the late 1700s? About 200 years ago, at the end of the 18th century. So the Qing Dynasty at that time, which had ruled China since 1644, was at the height of its size and power. And it's the fourth largest in world history,

and a bit larger than present-day China, I would say. Oh, okay. It's pretty big then. Yeah, it's pretty big, actually. And on the throne at that time was the Qianlong Emperor, who ruled already for 60 years, but he abdicated, meaning so that he wouldn't reign longer than his grandfather. That's very polite. I don't think we can fathom that over here. I can't see Charles going, no, no, mum.

Queen Elizabeth didn't do that with Queen Victoria, did she? She sailed past that record. She did. So how old was the emperor when he abdicated? So how old was the emperor when he abdicated? He was 85. Okay, so I mean, this sounds quite like a stable empire. China is large, it's well-ruled, they've got a kind, considerate fellow in charge who's respect for elders. So where does piracy come into this?

Well, you're right, Greg. I mean, that's China at that time had experienced rapid population growth throughout the 18th century. It's a very stable era. But at the same time, it also's a very stable era. But at the same time, it also created a dangerously unequal distribution of wealth and a sudden increase in the cost of living. So worsening socioeconomic conditions spawned a series of local revolts

and rebellions across China, and the largest of which was the excellently named White Lotus Rebellions. At the same time, there were also sporadic attacks by Mongol's tribes to the north. So to be honest, dealing with internal instability during that period of time was both time-consuming and costly. And to finance it, the government raised taxes and import duties, which hurt the merchants of Guangdong, which is the coastal region in the south of China. And this is also the region which was home to Zhang Yisao. Ah, okay. So she's born in Guangdong and we think roughly 1775 is a rough birth year, give or take.

But her name's not Zhang Yisao. That's her later pirate name. Do we know what she's called when she's born? Her birth is shi yang do we know anything about about her childhood any other fun stories um no not really i'm afraid okay definitely had one that's what we know she had a childhood in order to move on into adulthood that's been confirmed i guess that's how life works it's good to have a scientist here to explain it to us. Thank you, Ria. All right. So we don't know anything about our pirate queen's youth, but I guess I'll ask our comedian then. So Ria, did you do any pirating as a child? You know, just the usual, nothing too severe. I wasn't allowed to go too far from home

and I always had to be back for dinner. So my piracy was limited to just the village pond, if I'm honest. We didn't live near the sea, so it was tricky, but I did my best. The ducks feared you. Can you tell me more about what life was like growing up in Guangdong in the maritime economy, bordering on the South China seas? First of all, the landscape of Guangdong, well, dictated the lives and even diets of the nearly 20 million people who live there. 20 million? Wow. And so Guangdong also had a huge coastline, around 25% of China's seaboard today. And at its centre is the Pearl River Delta. It was also home to Macau and Canton. Nowadays, we call it Guangzhou. Two hugely important centres of trade, terminus of the Maritime Silk Road, and also one of the entry

points to the South China Sea. So most of the inhabitants may rely on the sea for living in Guangdong, whether as merchants, fishermen, water boatmen, and so forth. In the off-season, many lower-income families turn to piracy to supplement their wages, in which I would call them part-time pirates. The geography of the land, the riches which pass through, and the experience of the sea make this Guangdong province the perfect place for pirates. I love the idea of part-time pirates, Ria. What's the low season? So you're fishing the rest of the time,

but then the fish go on their holidays, so you control the piracy. Yeah, because the fish, they will migrate. I said it as a joke. I didn't know it was true. Well, you're a scientist. I mean, you should tell me more about it. It's true.

But yes, you're right. And also depends on the wind directions, because wind directions are the determinants of the movement of the pirates throughout the year. Part-time pirates it is then. Right, okay. So Chung Yi-Sau has been born, although she's not called that yet. But things really start to kick off in a wider story, Ria. There's been a civil war happening in Vietnam throughout her childhood.

It's called the Thai Son Rebellion. And it's been lasting for decades and quite nasty. It's ended up with two rival factions. And a lot of these Guangdong pirates get sucked into the civil war. They become freelancers to go and smuggle stuff in and help the different sides. So by the time we get to 1801, there is a lot of piracy. And we now finally get to meet our famous young pirate apprentice. And she's not known yet as Chong Yi Cao, but she's still Xu Yang. She's in known yet as Chung Yi-Sau, but she's still Shu Yang.

She's in her mid-20s, 25, 26 probably. What job do you think she is doing at this point, Ria? I don't want to say it, but it's so often the case that young women that aren't married and in those sort of port communities might be using their attributes to help other young men feel better after long times away at sea. I don't know how to say that nicely. And then she was remunerated for her efforts. You're right. I mean, she works as sort of a sex worker on the floating brothel and come into contact with wealthy clients in Guangdong. The ethnic groups that she came from

this were Tengka. And in Chinese, we also call them Dan Jia, who spent most of their lives at sea. But certainly they weren't wealthy. Obviously, her situation is not necessarily pleasant and positive. She finds a way of basically charming some of the clientele, I suppose, and she gets secrets out of them. And she uses that, Ria, to trade the secrets between various people. Like the original Mata Hari. Yeah. It's sort of pillow talk that she's turning it into a currency. You work what you got to work in those times.

You can't hold it against her, I think, if that is going to be her best way to survive and maintain her own living and her own safety. But we then get a change in her fortunes in that we get a marriage. And not any marriage. She's marrying the most famous pirate of his age, probably, Qiong Yi. Yep. So how has that happened? As far as we know, in 1801, one of the leading pirates at that time,

as Greg, you mentioned, Zhang Yi. So he married Shi Yang, and then Shi Yang became known as Zhang Yisao, because Zhang Yisao means the wife of Zhang Yi. What is less clear are the circumstances that led to the marriage, because some sources suggest that Zhang Yi sought Zhang Yisao out, whereas others suggested that it was the other way around, and Zhang Yisao persuaded him to marry her. According to the records, Zhang Yisao was actually quite savvy and ambitious. So they both stood to benefit from the marriage.

Zhang Yisao was apparently intelligent and beautiful. And Zhang Yi, as Greg already mentioned, he was one from a long line of noted pirates at that time. He's got a good family heritage. My father was a pirate. My grandfather was a pirate. It's a good stable income. But I won't be a pirate longer than my grandfather because that would be disrespectful.

Okay. So either she woos him or he woos her. But somewhere along the line, they get hitched and they become a bit of a power couple. I grew up in the West. So my history lessons are all in the West. And in the West, piracy wasn't something that you handed down. It was something that men would find. A little bit like comedy. You don't usually have, I'm a comedian, so I'm training my child to be a comedian. That doesn't happen. But piracy is sort of the same thing. But you're saying that it was something that was passed down through generations. He actually

needed to find someone good to mate with to give his children the best chance of surviving and taking over his empire. Because she was an ambitious woman. I'm sure that she already got plans. I mean, okay, well, how to climb up the ladder of success? I mean, by getting married to the chieftains of the pirate clans. You know what? Those are rope ladders and they're hard to climb. So I am just even more impressed with this woman now. This is only one of the versions. I have to admit that because there's no official records.

But this is one of the rumors saying that Zhang Yisa persuaded Zhang Yi to marry her. So it makes her story and her legacy even more exciting. I can believe that he showed up and she was like, right, here's a business plan. Here's a 10-point checklist of why you should marry me. But she didn't beg. Can I just say she did not beg? She didn't have to. She did her PowerPoint presentation.

Next slide, please. On the wall of the floating brothel. You need me. They get a bit of luck as well. Not only are they a new golden couple of piracy, but actually this Tyson rebellion in Vietnam that I mentioned, Ria, it comes to an end. And all of the pirates who've been freelancing, well, the part-time pirates, they sort of come home a bit disorganized and chaotic and a bit of a rabble.

And they don't know what to do with themselves. And so suddenly there's this glamorous new pirate duo who are like, well, come work for us. We're hiring. We're recruiting. We've got opportunities in the pirate business. And so we start to see them putting together a bit of a fleet. Organized piracy. This is incredible.

It's kind of almost as counterintuitive to what piracy is though, isn't it? How do you trust each other? Did they have a workers union? Like how did that, that's, You know, it's blowing my mind, because you're going to tell me they got pensions next. I mean, Ron, Ria's joking, but actually, in the early days, there were various squadrons.

Can you tell us about some of the sort of squadrons with different kind of sales, and how Chung Yi-Sau and her husband bring them together? Yeah, as you said, I mean, Chang Yi-Sau and Chang Yi, they took command during the mean, during the crisis and organised those part-time pirates into a single, really a unified force with a new power base in Guangdong. And at that time, like, Zhang Yi was still the figurehead.

And while his wife, Zhang Yisao, she played a big role in the logistic and organisations. So the pirate confederations, now, I mean, Greg, I'm getting back to your question, it was divided into six squadrons. Let's see if I can remember them all. So which are red, black, white, green, blue, and yellow. So within a couple of years, the Jiang couples, I mean, had about 400 Jiangs. So Jiangs is a type of Chinese ship, very commonly used in the South China Sea area. And about 70,000 men under their command.

And most of them were local fishermen and workers from Guangdong. So that's why I was attesting that they were actually part-time pirates, because in daytime, they might be just a normal fisherman. But in nighttime or in the non-off season, I mean, they became pirates. This is incredible. So they would just at night, they put on their netball colours and then they'd go out again. Team yellow. Like houses at boarding school or something.

This is okay. I love the idea of part-time pirates. Look, someone forgetting the wrong, I've got the wrong footwear. I brought my office shoes. They're too slippy. Just to reiterate for you, Ria, 70,000 men, 400 ships. Absolutely enormous. That's 175 men per ship.

These are huge ships. I can't even imagine there's enough fish left for them to even fish the seas part-time. The fish need time to recover. Yeah, the fish are like, give us a moment here. We've got to rebuild our numbers. So we have a power couple. They also adopt a child. I mean, I say child.

He's a teenage boy, really. They take on an apprentice to learn the business, but they adopt him as well. He's called Chang Bao. Is that right? Chang Bao Zai, Ron? Yeah, Chang Bao or Cheng Bao Zai. He's the son of a fisherman, but they've adopted him as their own son. He's the son of a fisherman. Sorry. We have now a nuclear family unit, but in 1807, tragedy strikes. Pirate King, Cheng Yi, he dies. He dies in quite a piratey way, in fairness, Ria. Do you want to guess what the piratey way was? I'm assuming he wasn't made to walk his own plank.

Oh, that's a good guess. I do like that. It was quite a dramatic death. It was quite dramatic. So he was hoist on his own petard. It's spelt with like four R's. Yeah, exactly. As far as we can tell, he either drowns in a huge typhoon or is killed by a cannonball.

Or the cannonball pushed him overboard into the typhoon. That could be it. Either way, he had the wind knocked out of his sails or knocked into it. I don't know. Chung Yi-Sau, she's now without a husband. So Ria, if you were in this situation, how would you now make a bid for solo power? Oh, well, you need to command loyalty, don't you? It usually comes down to money and maps with Xs on them. So I'm assuming she's got all the maps with all the Xs. And she's like, if you kill me, you'll never know. Or she's like, well, who else is going to do it?

You're going to go with Jim from red team? Or do you want to go with like Bob from white team? Because Jim's like, no, it's my turn. And Bob's like, oh, hang on a second. I've been here longer. And then Jim's like, yeah, but you my turn. And Bob's like, well, hang on a second. I've been here longer. And then Jim's like, yeah, but you're part-time. So you haven't really. So she probably just set all the different teams against each other

and just went, well, it's got to be me, doesn't it? Because you're all busy bickering. I think that's a pretty good guess, Ron. Is Rhea close with that? Yeah, she is. She's pretty close. What happens exactly at that time is that, according to the historical records,

Zhang Yisao secured the support of Zhang's two leading chieftains at that time. Jim and Bob, she got them to work together. Oh, she's so good. So one of them is called Zhang Baoyang and the other was called Zhang Anpang. Yes, that's the other James. That's Bob. Oh, that's Bob, yes. Yes, there's the other James. That's Bob.

Oh, that's Bob, yes. And to replace her husband as the head of the Red Squadrons, which is the most powerful of them, all with 340 Zhangs, I mean, and between 20,000 and 40,000 men under the Red Flag, she needed the reliable and trustworthy figures. And so she chose her adopted son, Zhang Baozai, who served as her, like, protege. But more than that, she marries him, her son. Yeah, but do you know what?

The Egyptians have been doing that for years to consolidate power. So, again, we can't hold it against her and they're not related. She has a political marriage with her own adopted son, Zhang Baozai. He's in charge of the Red Fleet. But really, she's now kind of top dog. I mean, she's certainly in charge of HR. I suppose the question I have to ask Ron is, would it have been possible for her to run the entire thing on her own?

Did she need a man? Was a woman capable, allowed, permitted to be a pirate queen? Or do you have to have a male puppet to deflect away? I wouldn't say Zhang Baozhai was a male puppet. It's because, according to the records, Zhang Baozhai wasn't interested in these administrative stuff or organisation stuff. Zhang Baozai was a warrior. He was brave. He was a military man. But he knows that he doesn't really have those DNA with managing the company. So he also needs to rely on Zhang Yisao. Getting the sense here that Zhang Baozai is good in a fight,

but he's not very good at the emails and the accountancy software. He doesn't know how to work it. The spreadsheets are very confusing to him. But you're right, I mean, because at that time, Zhang Yisao also found that Zhang Baozai is a very important person, I figure, because she knows that she was a woman. And before Zhang Yisao came to power, it was very rare to see a female leader among the pirate squadrons, I mean, to lead the pirates, whom were mostly men. Were there only male emperors as well? So was female leadership actually just unknown in Chinese culture generally, or was it just in piracy that it was unusual? Well, it was very unusual because there was only one female emperor in Chinese history so far. Her name is Wu, and who wrangled it during the Tang Dynasty. Yeah, of course, Emperor Wu or Empress Wu. We mentioned her in the Tang Dynasty episode with Tineke and Evelyn Mock.

Rhea, I mean, we have now a pirate queen. Her husband is dead, but she's got a new husband who is also her son. But let's move past that and just pretend that didn't happen. He was 18, minimum, right? He was an adult. He was a warrior. Right, okay, okay, good. But she now enforces some pretty strict law codes to keep the discipline.

Do you want to guess what they were? No more moonlighting as fishermen. Actually, interestingly, would she have banned other women? Would she have banned marriage to keep them all a little bit focused and slightly on edge? That's interesting. Ron? Zhang Yisao did introduce a very straight set of law codes where men could be immediately killed for disobeying a superior, for example, or having their ear cut off, I mean, for an authorised absence. Most importantly, I mean, the law codes, I mean, replaced the man's loyalty to specific captains

with a pledge of loyalty to an overarching system, which is like all under the control of Zhang Yisao and Zhang Baozai. And so Zhang Yisao also designed the law code and by saying that she used religion. And so Zhang Yisao also designed the law code by saying that she used religion. Before every mission, incense was burned and the gods were consulted. Zhang Baozai had already prearranged the outcomes with the priests beforehand, in order to ensure that the omens always favoured Zhang Yisao's course of action. What a coincidence. For the 47th time in a row, the omens, I mean, always are a favourite. I mean, Zhang Yisao's course of action. What a coincidence. For the 47th time in a row, the omens are excellent.

How did I not guess she pretty much started a religion within her community? It's always the answer though, isn't it? How did so-and-so control thousands of people? Religion! Yeah, and other than religion, Zhang Yisao also asserted control over all financial and operational activities. There was also a strict division of wealth. 20% of the captured goods were allotted to those involved in seizing them, while the remainders went into the communal treasury.

You could be killed for stealing your share of the loot. You could also be killed by not getting married. If you had consensual sex, if you refused to get married, you might have been killed. If a pirate had a lovely evening with a nice lady and things got hot and heavy, you had to marry her the next morning or you get killed. Yes. It's interesting because it's kind of old-fashioned by our thinking, isn't it? Away from that. What if she doesn't want to get married?

But at the same time, given the world that she's living in and given what she did before she got married, she's obviously really looking out for those women to make sure that they're not being abused or taken advantage of. Right. Incredible. So 20% of the treasure that was stolen would be given to the

pirates involved in actually getting it 80 goes into the overall the corporation's treasury it's basically it's sort of like a high-tax socialist you take it's like scandinavia at sea it's like sweden on a boat it's amazing do they get dental though do they get i don't know i'm assuming they probably didn't. Ria, I mean, I have to ask, if you were a pirate queen and you had to keep order, what rules would you enforce? All I can think of as a mother is how would I take care of my boys, you know, and their wives as they joined us one by one? You do have to rule with an iron fist. And I think keeping that 80% is using their own natures against them, isn't it?

It's saying, look, you're not going to leave as long as you think that 80% of what you're owed is being kept in this collective ownership of that centralized pot. And 20% was obviously what she determined was enough to keep them looting and keep them happy and keep them working. It's kind of like pocket money, wasn't it, really? She's just sort of going, well done, here's your pocket money, but the rest goes into savings for your university fund. That brings us on to the secondary business model. As well as piracy, Chung Yi-Sau, she diversifies. She is an entrepreneur. She spots the secondary income. So her secondary revenue stream is salt, which I guess is really important in Guangdong. So what is it about the salt industry that Chong Yishao specifically targets and how does she go about it, Ron?

In the 18th century, there were 22 salt tons where salt was produced, mostly located in the southwest of the Guangdong province. Four times a year, huge salt fleets would embark from the largest salt town, Tianpai, on a 400-mile journey up the coast to the port of Canton. Zhang Yisao's pirates launched repeated coordinated attacks on these salt fleets from their nearby fortress on an island called Naozhou off the coast of Guangdong. They became so successful that at one point, only four of the government's 270 salt ships remained outside of their control. Rather than dealing with the goods themselves, the pirates simply assumed control of the imperial supply lines and forced merchants to carry the goods in on their terms.

That's not piracy anymore. That's a hostile corporate takeover. She's just essentially assimilated a business model and gone, I'm doing that now. You now work for me. And she probably did it more efficiently than the government was doing it in the first place, which made it tricky to argue. She is putting the salt in the salty sea dogs the famous pirate catchphrase but ria she also introduces a passport system to regulate the salt industry who needs a salt passport to say whether you've how do you even test that do you like what do you do lick their face know you're salty enough what i can't understand what we're what are we passporting the people the ships the salt ron what are we passporting yeah what are we passporting ron passport system it meant that

salt merchants purchase a certificate of safe passage from the pirates before setting out on their journey so soon the passport system extended to all types of merchants and fishing vessels, as did the inland village along the Pearl River, paid the pirates for protection, either in currency, rice, or fish, or other essential goods. In fact, I mean, although it was kept a secret, but even the British East Indian Company, I mean, at that time, it was the world's most powerful corporations. They paid Zhang Yisao fees for protections. Merchantships could buy an annual subscription, or they also have another form of the passport, which is like pay-as-you-go or pay-as-you-sail arrangement for specific voyages. It's all set up by Zhang Yisao. She also set up financial offices at harbours along the coast and at major centres like Canton and Macau.

And she installed these tax offices to act as collection points for fees and check the passport, which was all orchestrated by a network of financial agents. I bet her husband's really annoyed, though. He's there. He's got all his muscles, all of his weaponry. He's like, I want to go and pirate someone. And she went, there's no one left. They're all paying the passports. She's turned 70,000 pirates into financial clerks. Are there ever any breakdowns in the system where someone's waving their certificate going, I've got my passport, I've got my passport, don't hurt my face. And the pirates are like, no, we're bored, we're going to punch you anyway. Sometimes, I mean, those passports, I mean, didn't really work well. But what Zhang Yisao emphasises is that you have to follow these rules. Because what Zhang Yisao wanted to do is to really create a stabilised seascape or pacified situations, I mean, in order to make sure that, I mean, she was in charge, I mean, behind all these business operations. But at the same time, she was also ready to fight.

But you're right, Greg. I mean, there's definitely, I assume that there was certainly some kinds of like exceptions. I mean, at some point that the passport doesn't really work. Is there a compensation scheme? Injury lawyers for you? Can you complain and say, I paid for my passport and she still hit me? There should be a floating lawyer who's going around and, have you been punched in the face by a pirate? Phone me and I will get your money back.

And a fish. 20% off your next annual passport up the Pearl River. Exactly. Ria, in a past career, you've had an extraordinary life in terms of the things you've accomplished, but you used to work in proper crime fighting. You worked at the Serious Fraud Office as a forensic IT analyst. An IT forensic investigator.

Right. I mean, so you used to bring down criminal organisations. I was there for three years. And I think, to be fair, I helped. But three years is nowhere near enough time to see anything through. I'm not sure what we would have done if we'd come across a fleet of pirates on a raid. I mean, because she sounds like she's running a very sophisticated, financially sound organisation with a lot of paperwork. It must all be on paper, mustn't it?

Because there's no computers at that time, which is what's amazing, is that she's keeping track of 70,000 men's pay. But who was on that raid? Okay, well, remember, 20% is split among those 50. Who was on that raid? Okay, 20% split among those 37. I mean, it's incredible. And the amount of trust she has to have in every financial clerk at every little stop along the way. But if you betray her, she'll kill you. Early in the episode, we talked about how sophisticated and stable China was in the 18th century. And the emperor was this great man who had ruled for 60 years and retired.

emperor was this great man who had ruled for 60 years and retired but surely the new emperor in the Qing dynasty he must be going how do we stop this woman she's stolen the entire salt industry she's intercepting every ship that comes in she's making millions is there a an effort by the navy to stop her can they stop her of course I mean the navy would really want to try to stop her? Can they stop her? Of course, I mean, the Navy would really want to try to stop her, but the thing is, I mean, they rarely dare to challenge her. Because the pirates, I mean, they ultimately rely on superior military powers to enforce their authority. And they had an extremely efficient military system. I mean, each of the six squadrons act as a floating fortress, I mean, each of the six squadrons act as floating fortresses from which attacks could be launched or repelled and supplies provided. So they have had lots and lots of ships and cannons in the Jiang Yisao clan. So by 1805, it has been estimated that they outnumbered the Imperial Navy in Guangdong coast by three to one.

Wow. navy in guangdong coast by three to one and by yeah so in fact the imperial navy spent most of their time at anchor claiming unfavorable winds prevented them from doing their jobs i mean that's what they could do because they know that they were outnumbered oh we'd love to sail we'd love to but it's it's a bit drizzly so yeah we totally beat them it's just the wind. The wind ain't up for it. All right. So they're outnumbered. They're up against an incredibly powerful navy. But if we go back, you said there were 20 million people in China at that point. You've got this great wealth divide that you were talking about. Surely the imperial power should have just done some kind of force conscription. 70,000 pirates that you said she's commanding is a huge number, but surely we could get that from the 20 million people

who are already unhappy and all those wars that you were saying up and down the coast. Surely they could have gathered more numbers. But the thing is, because the Qing Empire at that time, they were also suffering from lots of internal and external problems. It cost them a lot to maintain a navy. But compared to Zhang Yisao's financial operations, the Qing Empire lacked the money, they lacked the resources to support not

just the navy, to be honest, but also some of their local armies. And the other thing is that the followers of Zhang Yisao, they were all experienced warriors in the sea. They were trained and they have the money, right? They have the money to buy the cannons. They have the money to repair the ships and their boats. I mean, they're usually faster than the Imperial Navy. So that's why, I mean, the Qing Navy was so scared of the Jiang Yisao fleet. You have to wonder how the Imperial Navy ended up recruiting anybody. Who would go, yeah, yeah, I'll sign up for that. I would abandon ship and go work for her.

You get fed fed great working conditions nothing ever needs repairing food's got plenty of flavor because it's full of salt and that's true why even work for the imperial navy all right so we have an enormous fleet of 70 000 men 400 ships ron can you tell me about some of the military tactics what weapons are the pirates using how do they storm someone else's ship? Well, it was probably an unpleasant experience. And what anyone would have feared. And in order to cultivate their fearsome reputations, pirates reportedly drank a concoction of wine and gunpowder before battles. And then they frequently attack boats using grappling hooks,

or when the ship's size were too high, it would swim across and climb a broad deck undetected. We also found records saying that brutal forces was required, of course. And the pirates, their favourite weapon was a weapon called jinggao, which is a huge eight-foot-long musket-like device, which required two men to fire it as it rests upon the shoulder of a third. So to add to the intimidations and noise, the pirates would also swim towards the target ships,

brandishing 15- or 30-foot poles tipped with razor-sharp machete. And they also favoured the Asian-Greek tactics of the fire ship. So they're filling old boats with dry straws before sending them towards the enemy. At closer range, they also developed the use of handmade grenade using clay pots filled with gunpowder and gin. Okay, but earlier you said they used to prep for battle by drinking wine and gunpowder. They were drinking Molotov cocktails and then sending them over. The fear is on all sides at this point. I think everybody's just really wound up for battle. So they've got 30 foot poles with a razor sharp machete on it. And then the jingal is the eight foot long musket that three men fire. And then they're attacking you with grenades.

It's just terrifying. And you're outnumbered. There's nothing you can do. All that for 20%. I don't know. I'm changing my mind here. So Ron, the obvious question is what happens when the pirates attack your ship and you get defeated they capture you do they ransom you do they

kill you well if they blow up your ship i mean you don't have much choice right but if you were being caught by them and if you were a merchant something captured by guangdong pirates i mean you would probably be okay i mean okay with the exception of perhaps a finger or two. As long as you pay your ransom and gave up your booty, you should probably be okay. But if you were in the service of the Imperial Navy, however, you were likely to be nailed by your feet

to the decking of the ship. Ow! And then chopped it up into little pieces and then thrown overboard to feed the sharks. Well, except your feet, because thrown overboard to feed the sharks. Well, except your feet, because they're nailed to the deck. Yes, they have a fortepoel. Probably the shark doesn't like it.

So, but at least... Bony, very bony. But such rumours, I mean, that spread through the ranks of the Imperial Navy. Obviously, a lot of these stories, they come to us through slight fictions, through exaggerations, through the reports of Western prisoners. So some of this stuff might be a bit exaggerated, but I think we get the sense here that pirates were pretty nasty when they had to be. I'm sorry. I think that's very short-sighted. Think about this. Okay. You've drunk some wine. You've had some gunpowder. You jump overboard with your 30-foot machete. You swim across to the other side. You nail their feet to the deck. You chop the rest of them up. you throw them in the water, the sharks come and now you have to swim through those sharks back to your ship. I think you didn't think this through.

Chung Yi-Sau, she's basically running the show. She's running this enormous salt industry. But after a while, does she start to go after cities? I mean, did she become an inland pirate? She did, actually. The pirates led by Zhang Yisao, I mean, they had effectively destroyed the Imperial Navy in the sea. So they basically dominated most parts of the ocean. And then they began to launch more ambitious attacks on ports and inland targets, such as Canton, Macau. In 1809, Zhang Yizhao's pirates sent the city of Canton into panic when they politely posted a notice on their notice board saying that, well, we are going to attack you. It's the kind of strategies, isn't it?

To scare people, to make them panic. Did she cut the bottom of the notice up into little strips? Just like, on Tuesday, I'll be attacking. Prepare to remember. Is she trying to just get them to surrender? I think it's more about intimidation because they have already a reputation of scary people. So run or join us.

It's very considerate of her. It's very formal, isn't it? It's psychological warfare, though, isn't it? It's like sending a lawyer. It's very formal, isn't it? It's psychological warfare though, isn't it? It's like sending a lawyer. It's very business savvy. She's definitely an entrepreneur. She's definitely thinking like a businesswoman. Well, did it work though? I think that's the question. Did she attack Canton with success? Yes, she did. And then a few weeks later, she goes for Macau. And while attacking Macau, she captures five American ships. She steals a ship belonging to the Portuguese governor of Timor, and while attacking Macau, she captures five American ships.

She steals a ship belonging to the Portuguese governor of Timor and she blockades the Thai diplomatic mission. So she's now taking on nation states. That's incredibly ambitious. That's a rough start for the Americans. They've only been a country for about 30 years at that point, haven't they? Just there going, what? Man, what do you do? Leave us alone.

We're just figuring things out. This is a proper cushy situation, really, for Chongqing Cao and for Chongbao Zai. They're making a lot of good money, but she's angering nation states and imperial Western powers. Do we now suddenly see that actually maybe the tide is turning? Yeah, indeed. I mean, I also think that she has become too ambitious. By 1809, the pirate confederations, I mean, dominance, had forced the hand of the government. And by their own definition, the government began to view the pirates, I mean, led by Zhang Yishou and Zhang Ba by calling it a rebels, it was a recognition of their success installing a shadow war, rather than just law enforcement operations. They had to change their approach. So after years of refusing trade with foreigners, the Cantonese officials finally opened negotiations with the British and Portuguese

to solicit their aid in tackling piracy, in tackling Zhang Yisao. But it didn't work. But it didn't work. And the East Indian Company caved in when the pirates strangled their trade of opium and tin. The Portuguese failed to defeat them over several battles, despite having better cannons. The Portuguese, the Americans, the British are being brought into it and she's still defeating them. So what do you think she does at this point, Ria? We have here a woman so powerful that even nation states are struggling. What do you think Chung Yi-Sau does? This is tricky, right? Because she's a smart woman and a smart woman would retire at this point with her millions and just like buy an estate and pass it on. But sometimes things can

get away from you, can't they? And she's got 70,000 men that are looking up to her and going, what next mistress? Does she bite off more than she can chew at this point? I'm glad to say your first instinct was right. She's a clever girl. I'm so proud. I'm so proud. She knows when to stop. She sees the writing on the wall and goes, you know what? I've had a lot of fun. I've made a lot of money. I've had some lovely memories. And it's time to do a deal.

She basically just walks into a government building and says, hello, I'm the pirate queen. You know, the one you're terrified of. I'm happy to give it all up. And they say you're a lot shorter in real life than we thought you were. Where's the machete on a pole? Did you swim here? Would you like a towel? Is this true? Does she literally walk into a building? Yeah, that's true. Eventually, I mean, according to the Qing legal records, why does she make such a move? It's because, as we mentioned earlier, well, the Qing navies, I mean, they realised that they were outnumbered by the pirates,

so they couldn't really fight against them in the sea. So by 1810, the Qing government, I mean, changed their strategies. They decided to approach a couple of other squadrons individually and offer them a comfortable retirement. Divide and

conquer. Exactly. So they offered them a very good pension scheme as a comfortable retirement. Divide and conquer. Exactly. So they offered them a very good pension scheme as a comfortable retirement, and even bestowed some official title to some of them in order to... I bet it was the yellows, them cowards. Potentially. And it worked. Zhang Yisai also noticed it. Therefore, she decided to get ahead of the curve and negotiate a deal while she still had the upper hand, because she still got her fleet, got her men, got her followers, and so forth. So she walked in to the office to talk to the local official in Guangdong.

But although the talks commenced cordially, the Governor-General's insistence that Zhang Yisao and her team has to entirely relinquish control of their ships. She wouldn't buy this idea. Zhang Yisao demanded that, well, they retain the 80 zhangs and 5,000 men. But the Qing government said, no, you can't do it. So the negotiations stalled for several weeks until once more Zhang Yisao seized the initiative. So she approached the office once again, and this time even more dramatic because she was unarmed and accompanied only by a group of pirates' wives and children.

And she went to the highest official in Canton to negotiate in person. And then the government grants amnesty to thousands of pirates. Many of the pirates were offered bureaucratic and military commissions in the Chinese army. So they were being recruited to join the Qing court. And Zhang Baozai and Zhang Yizhao were allowed to marry, contrary to Chinese law at that time. Even though, of course, we know that they were married. They were couples on board. But by being recognized by the Qing government is another matter. And Zhang Baozai and Zhang Yishan were allowed to retain their fleet between 20 and 30

ships. And Zhang Yishan was also allowed to keep much of the booty they collected. So it seems like a happy ending. Ria, she walks away with the money. And some ships and some men. All the bloodlusty pirates, they go over to the Imperial Army and they continue over there. Although who they're fighting, I don't know, because if she retires, there's no one left, right?

The women and the children was an interesting one. They all just kind of did a day trip or something. It was like ultimate homeschooling where they go, today we're going to go on a field trip and learn about local government. It's a grand symbolic gesture, I suppose, to come unarmed with women and children. She's sort of saying, me, I'm just a little old lady. I'm no harm to you. I couldn't possibly be a pirate. It's a sort of humble, gentle, I'm no threat to you. Just give me my 20 ships and my 2000 men and all of the money that I've ever stolen and I'll be be fine and my billions it's a small army and my billions and i'll be fine by my calculation

she's 35 at this point yeah i think that's about right yeah born 1775 this is wow 1810 so i did not expect by the end of this podcast to feel so underachieved at my age given what she's achieved she can't quite give up the criminal life she doesn't retire to the countryside and do crosswords and plant begonias as far as we can tell there's still a sort of life of slight crime um in terms of her retirement okay that slight crime she's no longer murdering people at sea but she is running a slightly shady business, do we think? Just the occasional ear chopping here and there. Her husband is still there.

Zhang Baozai had a successful military career in the Qing Navy. What I suspect is Zhang Yizhou was still next to him, helping him to get all the logistics done. Because Zhang Baozai even quickly became a second captain and was awarded a peacock feather, which is the equivalent to a military cross, before becoming a lieutenant colonel. Zhang Baozai used his piratical knowledge to break up an illegal opium ring and ultimately retired with the rank of colonel in charge of two battalions. So I'm sure that Zhang Yishan was next to him, I mean, helping him to achieve all these. After 1822, when Zhang Baozai died...

She's outlived two husbands! Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of them she raised! But what we know is that she returned to Canton briefly to raise her young son. So we know that actually Zhang Baozai and her, I mean, they have one little son. And as far as we can tell, she's doing consultancy work. During the First Opium War, even though we're not entirely sure, but there are actually some records mean she acted as an advisor to the Qing viceries.

Lin Zixu, who was actually the key general who fought against the British during the First Opium War. So she was actually an advisor to him to sort of teach him how to mobilize the troops and so forth, because she knows the seascape very well. And then after the First Opium War, she started up a notorious

illegal gambling house. And she may have been involved in the rampant opium smuggling. I mean, that carried on unabated after the Pirates Confederations was dissolved. By the end of her life, she is notorious. She's got her own casino. She's advising governors. She's one of the greatest pirates the world has ever known. And she dies aged 69 in Macau, having basically beat the house she you know she took on the navy and won and then she said all right hand me my billions i'm i'm gonna go and retire so a phenomenal life the nuance window this is where ria and i take a little break. We go and have our feet nailed to the deck.

But our ears are yours. Yes, our ears are sliced off and handed to Ron so he can tell us something we need to know. So Professor Ron, can we have the nuance window? So after talking about Zhang Yisao today, I think we all agree that piracy is so interesting that continues to fascinate people of all ages. so interesting that continues to fascinate people of all ages. But pirates are not only interesting, but also significant for what they can tell us about Chinese history, the lives of ordinary people who came from the discontented underclass of labouring poor sailors and fishermen, including men and women. And they will provide us a picture of China, which is very different from the one that was constructed or colored by those educated scholar officials or intellectuals. And the culture of pirates, I mean, as we can see it from the story of Zhang

Yisao, well, did not share the dominant Confucian values of honesty, regality, and hard work, pirates would have to devise their own lifestyles, habits, and standard of behavior in order to survive. And for many pirates, including Zhang Yisao, of course, piracy was a rational and even legitimate means of maintaining their living. So as a result, their social-cultural world was significant because it was not identical to the traditional Confucius model in China that we used to know. And the final point that I would like to make is that some pirates, like Zhang Yisao, also established their own regime of military powers and bureaucracy, which existed parallelly, but independently of the central government and local elites.

So in a way, they created their own underworld culture of vice and crime. So that's what I want to share with our listener today. Thank you. Thank you so much, Ron. That's fascinating. I mean, I love the idea of them as a sort of parallel state almost. It's so interesting, isn't it? It actually brings up the question why that isn't allowed. We've kind of divvied up all land on the planet by nation state and to a certain extent the sea. But if she just moved further out from the coast.

So what do you know now? Well, it's time now for this. So what do you know now? This is a quickfire quiz for our comedian, Ria. Oh, pressure. Okay. We know you're brainy. We know you're a highly educated scientist,

but we have fired a lot of history at you. And tricky pronunciations. So I apologise in advance if I have to pronounce anything. I think I've been definitely letting the side down on that anyway, so don't worry. Okay, question one. During Cheng Yi Cao's life, which dynasty ruled China? Was it Qing?

It was. Yes. Question two. Which region of South China was Cheng Yi Cao from? Guangdong? Yep, absolutely. Very good. Okay. Question three. What was the name of Cheng Yi-Sau's first husband? Cheng Yi. It was Cheng Yi. Question four. Name

one thing you might be executed for under Cheng Yi-Sau's legal codes. It was weirdly phrased. It was like helping yourself to your own booty. Yeah, stealing from the communal loot. You could also have disobeying a superior officer or not getting married after consensual sex. Question five. Which flavourful seasoning was the source of so much of her wealth? MSG. No, salt. Salt.

Question six. What did merchants and fishermen have to buy if they wanted to sail safely past Chung-I-Sau's ships? They had to buy a passport, which is a really nice way of saying protection. Like it was a protection racket. Question seven. How many men and how many ships were under her command?

At the height, we said 400 ships and 70,000 men. We did. Well remembered. Question eight. The Jingal was a Chinese pirate's favourite weapon. It was used by three men, but what was it? A big long musket and two of them fired it. The third guy just said, I rested it on his shoulders. Absolutely.

Question nine. Cheng Yi Cao negotiated her deal by marching unarmed into an official's office. Who accompanied her? Wives and children of her. The second time. The second time. Because the first time she obviously went with some muscle men

and it didn't impress. This for a perfect score, Ria. old was jeng isao when she died we think she was 69 10 out of 10 ria a perfect score well done probably one of our hardest quizzes but you nailed it kidding yay oh my gosh that's i honestly i wasn't sure if i would get through some of those words those are never going to leave me either now. Those are burned in, those answers. Bring on the pub quiz. You had a wonderful teacher on Professor Ron. I did. Listeners, if you want to check out more on pirate history,

then we've got an Irish pirate in Gráinne o Máli, or we did, of course, an episode on Captain Blackbeard. And if you want more on Chinese history, you can listen to our episode on life during the Tang Dynasty. And remember, if you've had a laugh and learnt some stuff, please share the podcast with your friends, leave a review online, and subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. All that's left for me is to say a huge thank you to our guests.

In History Corner, we've had the fantastic Professor Ronald Poe from LSE. Thank you, Ron. Oh, thank you so much. It was so fun. And in Comedy Corner, we had the dazzling Ria Lina. Thank you, Ria. Pleasure. Thank you so much it was so fun and in comedy corner we had the dazzling ria lena thank you ria pleasure thank you so much lovely listeners join me next time as we set sail for another historical expedition with two different land lovers but for now i'm off to go and corner the lucrative salt market and maybe turn myself into the new salt bay bye you're dead to me was a production by the athletic for for BBC Radio 4. The research was by Will Clayton.

The script was by Emma Neguse, Will Clayton and me. The project manager was Saifah Mio and the producer was Cornelius Mendez. Harland, a new five-part supernatural thriller for BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Harland, town of the future. Things happen here sometimes, especially at night. The past does not exist here. To Harland, town of the future. Things happen here sometimes, especially at night. The past does not exist here. Police in Harland have appealed for the public's help with the investigation into the disappearance of local teenager Evie Bennett.

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